30/10/2013

:00:36. > :00:48.Good morning, this is the Daily Politics. Don't all show that

:00:49. > :00:51.once... -- shed at once, but some of Britain's energy companies to

:00:52. > :00:55.greedy? Perish the thought. We will be talking to the boss of a wee

:00:56. > :01:04.energy firm who thinks they are. He plans to investigate the market that

:01:05. > :01:07.will be looked at by the Government tomorrow. And in the interests of

:01:08. > :01:13.saving energy, we will be harnessing the hot air of this week PMQs.

:01:14. > :01:15.It's round two of when Mo met Tommy. We'll be talking to the former

:01:16. > :01:20.leader of the EDL. And is the NHS engine over-heating?

:01:21. > :01:24.We'll be talking to one health specialist who has this rather scary

:01:25. > :01:26.warning? All that and more in the next

:01:27. > :01:41.ever-increasing wave of demand, it will soon break down.

:01:42. > :01:49.We are coping here this morning, but more of that in the next 90 minutes.

:01:50. > :01:54.And with as for the duration, Westminster's finest double act.

:01:55. > :02:04.Their agents told me to say that. Al and Vern. It could be one word, Alan

:02:05. > :02:09.Byrne. In pursuit of public service broadcasting, iota of vessel, they

:02:10. > :02:13.were all we could afford. The International Development Minister

:02:14. > :02:17.Alan Duncan and the shiny new Shadow Defence Secretary, big Vernon Coker.

:02:18. > :02:22.Welcome to you both. Since I have you both here, international aid,

:02:23. > :02:27.defence, should some of the aid budget be taken to help our

:02:28. > :02:31.stretched forces? People think that if you took the aid budget and

:02:32. > :02:34.transferred it to defence, it would make all the difference but we

:02:35. > :02:39.worked so well together already. The defence budget is three and a half

:02:40. > :02:43.times the size of the total development budget, but we work very

:02:44. > :02:49.closely together in lots of conflict ridden places in the world and at

:02:50. > :02:52.the moment, we have pressing requirement in Syria and outside

:02:53. > :02:56.Syria in what is the biggest humanitarian intervention. The

:02:57. > :03:02.defence budget is being slashed, yours is being increased. If you

:03:03. > :03:06.want me to give money to him, if he were in Government would you want to

:03:07. > :03:11.take money away from people who are eating cats and dogs in Damascus?

:03:12. > :03:14.You know that is not the choice, because that kind of aid, that goes

:03:15. > :03:20.directly to help people in real need, is a very small percentage of

:03:21. > :03:26.your 10 billion. You gave... Two thirds of your budget goes through

:03:27. > :03:31.the World Bank, the EU, the UN, three bywords for waste and

:03:32. > :03:35.profligacy. I don't think so, but you are right, there is a

:03:36. > :03:39.significant element, 40%, that goes to multilateral organisations, much

:03:40. > :03:43.of it which would happen if there was not a department for

:03:44. > :03:46.International development, but don't me the United Nations is not doing

:03:47. > :03:55.important stuff to feed people, to help them, keep the peace -- then

:03:56. > :03:59.tell. You know how much they waste. It is very glib to say get rid of

:04:00. > :04:02.them all, we know what they do and we keep a beady eye on them to make

:04:03. > :04:05.sure we get value for the money we give them. You have been attacking

:04:06. > :04:10.the Government for numbers only terror shall -- numbers in the

:04:11. > :04:14.territorial Army, trying to beef it up, but wouldn't you need to come if

:04:15. > :04:19.you are trying to do it, for extra money for defence? What we are

:04:20. > :04:25.saying is the Government has one problem of reform, it is in trouble

:04:26. > :04:30.in the number of reservists that are being used to take the place of the

:04:31. > :04:34.number of full-time soldiers. So it is a reform problem. We should they

:04:35. > :04:36.should pause, with respect to that, to see if it will save them any

:04:37. > :04:41.money or whether actually, there is a better way of doing it. I

:04:42. > :04:44.understand what you mean but if you were to stop this move of a

:04:45. > :04:49.rebalancing towards a bigger reservist army, that would cost you

:04:50. > :04:51.more money in the short run as professional soldiers are more

:04:52. > :04:56.expensive. Where would you get that from? That is why you posted, it is

:04:57. > :05:00.not about spending more money, it is about looking to see what is

:05:01. > :05:03.happening with respect to the reform programme that the Government is

:05:04. > :05:07.pursuing, and there are some doubts as to whether it will actually save

:05:08. > :05:13.any money at all. He was the interesting thing that people don't

:05:14. > :05:20.understand. That -- hearers. We give ?450 million a year to Pakistan

:05:21. > :05:23.while we slash around defence budgets to give us the smallest army

:05:24. > :05:31.since the Napoleonic war. And yet Pakistan spends how much of its

:05:32. > :05:38.national budget on defence? I agree that... Let me tell you. They spend

:05:39. > :05:43.54% of all federal spending in Pakistan on defence. So we give them

:05:44. > :05:47.a small amount of money, so that they can do something with the

:05:48. > :05:51.appalling poverty there, although it is only on the edges, while they

:05:52. > :05:57.spent over half of their money on something we are slashing, called

:05:58. > :06:01.defence. Explain the logic? If we don't act as we are acting in

:06:02. > :06:04.Pakistan, this is the country where some of the greatest dangers in the

:06:05. > :06:08.world could emanate, including having the nuclear balance next door

:06:09. > :06:12.with India. So what we do in Pakistan can make an enormous amount

:06:13. > :06:18.of difference. If you had a Pakistan incomplete decay, the costs of

:06:19. > :06:22.curing that problem would far exceed the money spent... You cannot claim

:06:23. > :06:24.that 450 million is making a difference to whether Pakistan goes

:06:25. > :06:30.over the edge or not, let's be serious. It makes a contribution to

:06:31. > :06:33.that but we are also focusing on course on pressing polity, there is

:06:34. > :06:39.pretty ghastly poverty in Pakistan and we don't turn our backs on

:06:40. > :06:42.people who don't know where their next meal is coming from. Of course,

:06:43. > :06:46.they would if they didn't spend half of their budget on defence in the

:06:47. > :06:50.Pakistan Government. Today, the Privy Council, the group

:06:51. > :06:57.of senior ministers who advise the Queen, is due to head to Buckingham

:06:58. > :07:04.Palace to finally approve the Royal Charter and press regulation. Once

:07:05. > :07:08.it is approved, following the ideals of the Levinson choir is a done

:07:09. > :07:14.deal, but the press has other ideas, trying to put the charter on hold.

:07:15. > :07:19.Ross Hawkins watches all things Levinson, so we don't have to, a

:07:20. > :07:26.very admirable role. -- Levenson. What is happening?

:07:27. > :07:30.The weight of deja vu is crashing. We have been on the traffic island

:07:31. > :07:37.in front of this court before four months and months, hearing from Lord

:07:38. > :07:41.Justice Leveson, thinking it would be sorted out, but it wasn't

:07:42. > :07:45.anywhere near. Today, finally settling on the version of a Royal

:07:46. > :07:48.Charter to help regulate the press that the political parties agree on,

:07:49. > :07:53.surely it will be over them? Apparently not. What the press are

:07:54. > :07:55.trying to do is get an injunction to say that that meeting cannot go

:07:56. > :08:01.ahead, Her Majesty cannot give the seal on this. They say that because

:08:02. > :08:09.the way that version of the press charter was dealt with was unfair,

:08:10. > :08:12.we heard in there that there was practically a Kafkaesque situation.

:08:13. > :08:16.Two judges looking wisely over their glasses at a QC. I wouldn't dare

:08:17. > :08:20.predict what judgement they will come to, but it is possible but at

:08:21. > :08:23.the end of this hearing, the Queen and ministers get told, I am awfully

:08:24. > :08:26.sorry, you cannot make a decision today because the lawyers will not

:08:27. > :08:30.let you. Ross Hawkins, thank you. Joining us

:08:31. > :08:34.is the Sun columnist Trevor Kavanagh. You are trying to hold

:08:35. > :08:37.this progress for a Royal Charter, but what you really want is delayed,

:08:38. > :08:41.because more delay will mean that this could be kicked into the long

:08:42. > :08:48.grass and you can go ahead and set up your own regulator. No, we want a

:08:49. > :08:54.regulator. We want clarity. What we have is a fudge and this is a

:08:55. > :08:58.political attempt to control the press by state statute, and it has

:08:59. > :09:01.been stitched up in secret in late-night meetings between parties

:09:02. > :09:05.that do not involve the newspaper industry, and the Privy Council,

:09:06. > :09:09.which meets in secret. We don't even know who is in the Privy Council.

:09:10. > :09:14.You don't know the players at this point, you will know afterwards, but

:09:15. > :09:19.what is missing in terms of clarity? Transparency, for one thing. But you

:09:20. > :09:24.know what is being proposed. We do. The simple fact is we don't know who

:09:25. > :09:28.is making the decision, how they are doing so, where they are even

:09:29. > :09:36.meeting, in fact. When the initial plan was put together, it was at

:09:37. > :09:41.3am, involving political party leaders in the office of Ed

:09:42. > :09:45.Miliband, attended by the campaigning group Hacked Off, and no

:09:46. > :09:51.representation from the newspaper groups. And it was proposed, not

:09:52. > :09:57.voluntarily agreed, but we have put one forward that covers everything

:09:58. > :10:02.that Leveson suggested except it does not require state legislation.

:10:03. > :10:06.What will you do if the High Court bid today fails? I suspect we will

:10:07. > :10:11.continue to operate under the terms of the charter we set up. Will that

:10:12. > :10:16.be up and running by January? I should think so. So nothing is going

:10:17. > :10:20.to change your mind in terms of signing up to what has been proposed

:10:21. > :10:25.by the Government? Nobody is going to sign up, I think, to state

:10:26. > :10:29.control. Do you know that for a fact? It is going to be a case of

:10:30. > :10:32.safety in numbers, so if everybody stays on board, along the lines you

:10:33. > :10:36.have said that, then you are going to have a much bigger stick to try

:10:37. > :10:39.and beat the Government with. Are you worried that some of them may

:10:40. > :10:44.pull away if the Royal Charter goes ahead today? It is always possible,

:10:45. > :10:48.but if anything, they are getting more together than falling apart, so

:10:49. > :10:52.I think the Government measures are not wholly supported, even within

:10:53. > :10:55.the Government. So I think that there is plenty of room, even

:10:56. > :11:00.there, for negotiation and manoeuvre. I wouldn't be surprised

:11:01. > :11:03.if something crops up. Is there room for negotiation? What happens, Alan

:11:04. > :11:09.Duncan, if the charter is sealed today and the press, the main

:11:10. > :11:12.groups, say no. It is absurd to call the state control. All it is doing

:11:13. > :11:17.is setting up a framework within which they can be a process of

:11:18. > :11:23.independent regulation, so that neither Trevor know I know Vernon

:11:24. > :11:30.can make a judgement over the press -- nor I, nor Vernon. What we have

:11:31. > :11:36.lacked over many years is a genuine independent, really sort of process

:11:37. > :11:41.of address. Some members of the press have behaved abominably and

:11:42. > :11:48.many who think they are the victims of bad press contact me Natalie feel

:11:49. > :11:52.they have no means of redress -- bad press conduct feel they have no

:11:53. > :11:58.means of redress. This is doing something about it. But my question

:11:59. > :12:05.is, what you do if the say no? They will run the risk of damages and

:12:06. > :12:08.don't sign up? I don't know the immediate answer. So many people are

:12:09. > :12:13.so bamboozled about what has really happened since Levenson, they are in

:12:14. > :12:17.a muddle. If you are to as people in the street what this charter is

:12:18. > :12:22.about, they will say they don't understand. But my understanding is,

:12:23. > :12:26.as I have just explain that if the press do not somehow sign up to it,

:12:27. > :12:32.it is a pity, because they came up with a proposal that was not

:12:33. > :12:36.compliant with what Lord Justice Leveson suggested. Yes it was, it

:12:37. > :12:41.was completely compliant. It was voluntary, it covered everything he

:12:42. > :12:48.recommended. It wanted former editors to sit on the regulation.

:12:49. > :12:55.What about the composition of those sitting in regulation? Former

:12:56. > :12:59.editors... You have got to have some input from people who know the

:13:00. > :13:03.industry is about. As Ed Miliband Harding in his view since the row

:13:04. > :13:07.about his father with the Daily Mail -- as Ed Miliband hardened in his

:13:08. > :13:13.view? I think he has been motivated all the way through by the fact that

:13:14. > :13:18.we are in a situation that the press backwardly public had lost faith in

:13:19. > :13:22.the complaints procedure. What we are discussing some of the most

:13:23. > :13:26.awful abuses of press abuse that we have seen, cases like Millie Dowler.

:13:27. > :13:30.It is not about regulating the press, as such, it is about how

:13:31. > :13:34.complaints are dealt with, how ree dress is achieved by people in a way

:13:35. > :13:37.which is independent of Parliament, and independent of the press, and I

:13:38. > :13:43.think people would see that as sensible. How determined are the

:13:44. > :13:48.Tories to see this through? I don't think it is the Tories, as such.

:13:49. > :13:53.Politicians are trying to find an answer to the long-standing question

:13:54. > :13:56.about how to address the unsatisfactory state of press

:13:57. > :14:01.regulations, as Vernon has just said. In my view, there is nothing

:14:02. > :14:07.in here that would go anywhere near stopping the press saying something

:14:08. > :14:12.they thought was true. As the Americans say, you can put lipstick

:14:13. > :14:15.on a pig and it is still a pig. On that parroted line, we will end it

:14:16. > :14:19.there, thank you. It was billed as the dirty

:14:20. > :14:23.half-dozen meets high noon. But what happened when the big six energy

:14:24. > :14:27.bosses, actually not all of them turned up, their surrogates,

:14:28. > :14:31.appeared before the energy select committee yesterday afternoon?

:14:32. > :14:36.Surprise surprise, they defended prices in the rise of wholesale

:14:37. > :14:40.energy. The show was not stolen by any of the MPs doing the cruising

:14:41. > :14:52.but by one Lone Ranger, the managing director of OVO Energy. Here is a

:14:53. > :14:56.flavour of the session. The easiest way I can explain to you

:14:57. > :14:59.what has happened in the wholesale market in terms of pricing is the

:15:00. > :15:09.most expensive price we have paid for wholesale gas in the last four

:15:10. > :15:14.years was in May 2011, 74p, and since then, it has been below 73p

:15:15. > :15:19.for this winter, last winter and next winter. We are buying for next

:15:20. > :15:23.winter at the current price of 69p. So I cannot explain any of these

:15:24. > :15:28.price rises other than they are not the prices that we see in the

:15:29. > :15:33.wholesale market. We effectively ran our retail business as a separate

:15:34. > :15:37.business unit, and one of the things the Labour Party has been talking

:15:38. > :15:42.about is ring fencing generation and retail. That is something that we

:15:43. > :15:47.effectively do and we would support. Is it not just about the

:15:48. > :15:57.biggest problem, that is that consumers can no longer afford to

:15:58. > :16:04.pay their energy bills? In politicising things, what are you

:16:05. > :16:09.going to do for consumers? When it comes to... There are two key things

:16:10. > :16:16.to talk about, all the profits they are? But how can the profits be fair

:16:17. > :16:20.when people cannot afford to pay for energy? Because the second part of

:16:21. > :16:27.this is what we do with the profits. I do not make a 5% profit in my

:16:28. > :16:30.business, if that does not happen, I cannot employ 20,000 people. They

:16:31. > :16:36.are equally members of our society. And cannot afford to operate the

:16:37. > :16:41.company. We make a fraction of what mobile phone company makes.

:16:42. > :16:45.Dashboard off on companies make. Why have written to the Prime Minister

:16:46. > :16:51.and the Secretary of State Colin for a Competition Commission. I

:16:52. > :16:59.fundamentally believe that this market is competitive. But iPods

:17:00. > :17:02.that we are not trusted and therefore I believe that we need to

:17:03. > :17:11.have a very thorough Competition Commission investigation. We're

:17:12. > :17:15.trying to track down where the money is going and last time out was here

:17:16. > :17:19.and the time before then, I said you will never find it. These guys are

:17:20. > :17:25.the best at filibustering in the business. And the Chief Executive of

:17:26. > :17:31.overall energy, you saw in front of the committee yesterday, joins us

:17:32. > :17:35.from Bristol. -- overall energy. I understand that you do not pay the

:17:36. > :17:44.same environmental and social charges, so that must be one reason

:17:45. > :17:50.why you do not charge as much. You are right. Ofgem tried to encourage

:17:51. > :17:53.more competition by allowing exemptions to small suppliers. Over

:17:54. > :17:58.the last couple of years, we have not contributed to the environmental

:17:59. > :18:01.levies. They make up about 4% of the bills and some of the price

:18:02. > :18:06.differences we have seen are more like 14 or 15%. What is the average

:18:07. > :18:14.difference between somebody with British Gas and somebody with you?

:18:15. > :18:22.The average of the four of the big six, the average is about ?165. That

:18:23. > :18:27.is about 14 or 15% higher. But you increased prices in April? We our

:18:28. > :18:32.prices up, having not raise our prices for the whole of last winter.

:18:33. > :18:35.After the warm weather last year, we decided not to have a pricing

:18:36. > :18:44.crease. As it was a cold March and April, we saw a rebound in gas and

:18:45. > :18:47.electricity prices. And that led to us putting up our presence. Like any

:18:48. > :18:53.other energy company, when our wholesale prices go up, our prices

:18:54. > :18:57.will follow. We have always said we would try to keep this to a minimum.

:18:58. > :19:04.But it is not like we will never put up prices. This is not, there is no

:19:05. > :19:10.magic solution. But you said that wholesale prices are lower than they

:19:11. > :19:14.were two years ago and have looked at the costs and that is right. Why

:19:15. > :19:18.have you not reduced your bills? As everybody has said, there are lots

:19:19. > :19:23.of components that make up consumer energy bills. There are

:19:24. > :19:29.environmental and social levies and wholesale gas costs. Last October,

:19:30. > :19:35.we saw network costs going up considerably. This was offset by a

:19:36. > :19:39.temporary fall in wholesale prices so we did not change our price

:19:40. > :19:46.because, on balance, our input costs had not changed. When the wholesale

:19:47. > :19:53.price moved back up again, in April, we had to pass that on. But

:19:54. > :19:57.according to Ofgem, wholesale gas and electricity prices are going to

:19:58. > :20:02.rise this winter, too, and that is why the energy prices have gone up.

:20:03. > :20:07.The price we are paying for wholesale gas has not moved

:20:08. > :20:14.significantly in the last two years. Electricity is creeping up but it is

:20:15. > :20:19.a couple of percentage points. All we're saying is that we do not see

:20:20. > :20:23.those price rises in our wholesale costs. If the big six are paying

:20:24. > :20:28.more for gas and electricity, that is a matter for them. What is your

:20:29. > :20:32.profit margins? We hope to make 5% profit per customer. One of the

:20:33. > :20:38.things that makes us different is that we try to make 5% of profit for

:20:39. > :20:43.each customer rather than making a big profit margin on some customers

:20:44. > :20:46.and a loss on others. So your profit margins is no different from the big

:20:47. > :20:53.six? I do not think profits are evil. They are not the problem. I

:20:54. > :20:56.think most consumers would be very happy to have a profitable energy

:20:57. > :20:58.company supplying them as long as they got good service and they felt

:20:59. > :21:04.they were getting good value for money. In the absence of good value

:21:05. > :21:07.for money and good customer service, people look to energy company

:21:08. > :21:11.profits and say that they do not deserve them. I'm not sure whether

:21:12. > :21:16.you have said it but the big six have been accused of being a cartel

:21:17. > :21:19.is a word with a particular meaning, cartels are actually

:21:20. > :21:28.illegal under British and German law. A cartel implies people

:21:29. > :21:35.colluding against the interests of the public. And IFS eyes colluding.

:21:36. > :21:41.Is it your view that they are a cartel? -- and I emphasise. I do not

:21:42. > :21:47.believe that they are a cartel. A cartel implies collusion, and I do

:21:48. > :21:54.not think there are secret meetings somewhere where they decide how much

:21:55. > :21:57.to charge British customers, but they do -- I do think they are as

:21:58. > :22:03.bad as each other. They do not offer a great choice. I would like to see

:22:04. > :22:05.the regulator take a stronger line on promoting competition and, in

:22:06. > :22:10.particular, new entrants into the market like us, although we would be

:22:11. > :22:16.happy to see more entrants offering different business models and

:22:17. > :22:19.therefore more choice. Think we have to be careful. The big six have an

:22:20. > :22:25.important role to play in the energy industry. There is a lot of

:22:26. > :22:28.investment required. We would like to win some of their market share

:22:29. > :22:34.but we're not saying that what they are doing is illegal or in anyway

:22:35. > :22:39.collusive. We just think they are all pretty much the same. You say

:22:40. > :22:44.you're going to have to start paying the green levies next year.

:22:45. > :22:48.Wholesale gas prices, you say, are rising again. And you have to pay

:22:49. > :22:54.the regulated costs of distribution to the National Grid, which because

:22:55. > :22:58.we are building windmills in parts of the world weather is not

:22:59. > :23:03.distribution, that is becoming an expensive part of doing business. I

:23:04. > :23:10.would think that your LO just prices will have to go up to. -- your

:23:11. > :23:14.electricity prices. I will not rule anything out but I can say that we

:23:15. > :23:18.have no plan for a price rise. But they all say that! The boss of aeon

:23:19. > :23:23.said that on the BBC this morning! Michael Heseltine said that when he

:23:24. > :23:29.said he was not running against Margaret Thatcher. -- EON. You're

:23:30. > :23:36.sounding like a politician now! Bad news indeed! If our costs go up and

:23:37. > :23:42.we cannot absorb them, prices will have to go up. We have never claimed

:23:43. > :23:47.to have the magic all it. We do not claim to have a secret answer. -- a

:23:48. > :23:50.magic bullet. We are trying to be as efficient as possible. We do not

:23:51. > :23:54.have any marketing gimmicks to convince customers they are getting

:23:55. > :23:58.a good deal. That forces us to keep our costs down. I hope that we will

:23:59. > :24:02.just be better than the competition. I do not know that we can keep a lid

:24:03. > :24:09.on prices for ever if everyone else's costs are going up. Alan

:24:10. > :24:17.Duncan, are we clearer yet? The Prime Minister, spoke of rolling

:24:18. > :24:23.back the green levies. Are we any clearer on what that means? I think

:24:24. > :24:26.we want to reduce the burden of the green levies. Which ones? That was a

:24:27. > :24:33.remarkable interview because that had the answer. Anger or hatred will

:24:34. > :24:37.not bring down prices. 30 years ago, in the oil business, the traders I

:24:38. > :24:42.worked for drove the big companies out of their dominance. That kind of

:24:43. > :24:46.market power is what we need in the utilities industry. So what is your

:24:47. > :24:53.answer? The answer is that we need more companies like that. That is

:24:54. > :24:58.the answer to your question. My question was, indulge me, and answer

:24:59. > :25:06.the question. What green levies are we talking about? This has not been

:25:07. > :25:13.defined exactly. So you do not know. No. Well, don't waffle, just say you

:25:14. > :25:24.do not know. Peter Helm, the premier egg Djurdjic -- energy expert says

:25:25. > :25:29.that the cost of investing in energy capital is higher so that the costs

:25:30. > :25:33.will be higher, thanks to Labour. I disagree. We said that the should be

:25:34. > :25:38.a price freeze. If we were to win the next election. During that time,

:25:39. > :25:45.we would refund the market and do all the things that we said. But if

:25:46. > :25:50.he removes the levies, he will be able to cut the price, not just

:25:51. > :26:01.freeze at? But nobody has a clue. If global prices have gone up. How can

:26:02. > :26:04.you reform the market? He has no idea what he's talking about. We

:26:05. > :26:10.have to move. As we have been hearing, gas bills are rising, and

:26:11. > :26:16.saw temperatures. Actually, they are falling. Often leaves this morning.

:26:17. > :26:19.The first taste of what I've fought one got back this morning. The

:26:20. > :26:26.clocks have gone back and the nights are drawing in. It is a cliche a

:26:27. > :26:31.second. Our Energy Secretary is investing in knitwear. So we have

:26:32. > :26:37.developed something better. Look at this, the Daily Politics mug cosy.

:26:38. > :26:44.Trendier than Flashdance legwarmers and cuddlier than eight crotch did

:26:45. > :26:51.Ed Davey, even a crotchety Ed Davey. To keep your Daily Politics mug

:26:52. > :26:56.slug. We're not sure if it is machine washable and it may shrink

:26:57. > :27:00.if washed. It was originally part of Hazel Blears' winter wardrobe. Just

:27:01. > :27:04.joking. Very cheeky. This can be yours along

:27:05. > :27:09.with our own Daily Politics mug. Just listen to our JoCo. You would

:27:10. > :27:18.be a net to miss it. Oh, dear! -- a knit.

:27:19. > :27:20.We will remind you how to enter in a minute. Mine is smaller than yours.

:27:21. > :27:35.Can you remember when this happened? If something finished? No, no, no.

:27:36. > :28:34.-- is hunting finished. And all that standards have slipped

:28:35. > :28:38.in Washington over the last few years but for a lawyer, you are

:28:39. > :28:49.remarkably cavalier with any idea of justice.

:28:50. > :28:59.To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, and the tea cosy

:29:00. > :29:03.or whatever you want to call it, set your -- send your answer to our

:29:04. > :29:10.special e-mail address. And you can see the full terms and conditions

:29:11. > :29:18.for Guess The Year on our website: Don't listen to and restoring. We

:29:19. > :29:25.will reveal the answer at the end of the show. -- don't listen to Andrew

:29:26. > :29:29.snoring. And Alan, you are going to knit it for the end of the petition.

:29:30. > :29:34.By wanting a jumper. Anyway, is this a politics programme

:29:35. > :29:42.or a daytime knitting show? Coming up, it is almost midday. Big Ben is

:29:43. > :29:45.behind me. A sunny, autumnal day. With just a tinge of air

:29:46. > :29:49.conditioning. By ministers questions is on its way and James Landale is

:29:50. > :29:54.here. A cornucopia of things that could happen today. What will they

:29:55. > :29:59.do? There is a lot. But there is nothing dominant or obvious. Ed

:30:00. > :30:01.Miliband has done very well on the cost of living so think the

:30:02. > :30:06.temptation will be to on their patch. But because of yesterday's

:30:07. > :30:10.committee hearings, there is not much for him to bite on. He might

:30:11. > :30:16.stay on the same subject or they might go to water or something else

:30:17. > :30:25.like that. Mr Cameron could have fun on labour's Makkah nations over

:30:26. > :30:33.HS2? Definitely that is rich pickings for him. -- imaginations.

:30:34. > :30:38.Hopefully he will have a sub editor who will tell you not to use that

:30:39. > :30:43.word. It is an area where Labour are vulnerable. There is an opportunity

:30:44. > :30:46.for that and eye would be amazed if the whips have not got an MP to ask

:30:47. > :30:54.that question. Straight to the Commons. This morning, I have had

:30:55. > :31:11.meetings with my colleagues and eye There are over 1 million new jobs.

:31:12. > :31:14.We were told that the Government has a programme which would clearly lead

:31:15. > :31:21.to the disappearance of a million jobs. Isn't it time for the person

:31:22. > :31:29.who said that to admit they were wrong and apologise.

:31:30. > :31:34.My honourable friend is absolutely right. The British economy is on the

:31:35. > :31:39.mend. We see unemployment coming down, the numbers in work are going

:31:40. > :31:43.up. Our growth rate is now forecast to be almost three times as fast as

:31:44. > :31:48.German growth. And frankly, the party opposite and the Leader of the

:31:49. > :31:51.Opposition told us we would lose a million jobs. He was absolutely

:31:52. > :32:08.wrong and it is time he got to his feet and told us he was wrong.

:32:09. > :32:11.Mister Speaker, having listened to the select committee hearing

:32:12. > :32:23.yesterday, can the Prime Minister tell us, what is the difference...

:32:24. > :32:28.THE SPEAKER: Order. Can I tell the Prime Minister's PBS, his role is to

:32:29. > :32:33.not his head in the appropriate places and fetch and carry notes. No

:32:34. > :32:37.noise required. Mister Miliband. Having listened to the hearing

:32:38. > :32:40.yesterday, can the Prime Minister tell us what the differences between

:32:41. > :32:46.his policy on energy and that of the energy companies? Not a word of

:32:47. > :32:53.apology about predicting 1 million jobs lost. They got it wrong and

:32:54. > :32:57.they can't bear to admit it. THE SPEAKER: Order. The question

:32:58. > :33:02.must be heard and the answers must be heard, however long it takes.

:33:03. > :33:07.Some people need to get used to the fact that that is what the public

:33:08. > :33:11.would like to see from the House of Commons. Prime Minister. The energy

:33:12. > :33:15.market needs more competition and lower levies and charges to drive

:33:16. > :33:19.profits and prices down. At what we have learned, Mister Speaker in the

:33:20. > :33:24.last week, is that this competition should include switching. At the

:33:25. > :33:28.dispatch box, he said, I will tell the Prime Minister what is a con,

:33:29. > :33:34.telling people that the answer is to switch suppliers. But what did we

:33:35. > :33:41.find out over the last few days? He switched his supplier. Yes! He went

:33:42. > :33:46.for one of these insurgent companies to cut his bills. Isn't it typical?

:33:47. > :33:50.He comes here every week and attacks Tory policy. He goes home and he

:33:51. > :34:01.adopts Tory policy to help his own family. Mister Speaker...

:34:02. > :34:04.The only thing people need to do, if they want somebody to stand up

:34:05. > :34:10.against the energy companies, they need to switch the Prime Minister,

:34:11. > :34:18.and that is what they know. Now, as the unofficial spokesman for the

:34:19. > :34:24.energy companies, maybe he can answer the question that they could

:34:25. > :34:28.not answer yesterday. Can he explain why, when wholesale prices have

:34:29. > :34:35.hardly moved since a year ago, retail prices are rising by around

:34:36. > :34:40.10%? Because we need both competition and rolling back the

:34:41. > :34:46.cost of charges. Switching is part of competition. And the company that

:34:47. > :34:56.he switched to has this to say about his energy freeze: They said, "a

:34:57. > :35:02.policy like this is potentially problematic for an independent

:35:03. > :35:05.provider. Bluntly, it could put me under." So that is his policy, not

:35:06. > :35:11.listening to the people providing his energy, but having less choice,

:35:12. > :35:18.less competition and higher prices. It is the same old Labour. He had no

:35:19. > :35:23.answer to the question. And I will its play on something quite simple

:35:24. > :35:28.to him. Most energy companies do not want a price freeze. And most

:35:29. > :35:31.consumers do. That is why the energy companies are against the price

:35:32. > :35:35.freeze. He is so on the side of the energy companies that we should call

:35:36. > :35:41.them the big seven, the Prime Minister and the big six energy

:35:42. > :35:49.companies. Now, in opposition, he said this: "There is a problem in

:35:50. > :35:53.the relationship between wholesale and retail prices. The first thing

:35:54. > :36:00.you have got to do is give the regulator the teeth to order that

:36:01. > :36:05.those reductions are made. That is what we would do." Mister Speaker,

:36:06. > :36:12.why, when it comes to the energy companies, has he gone from Rambo to

:36:13. > :36:18.Bambi in four short years? Who was it who gave us the big six?

:36:19. > :36:23.Yes! When Labour first looked at this, there were almost 20

:36:24. > :36:27.companies, but because of his stewardship, we ended up with six

:36:28. > :36:30.players. Now, they talk about a price freeze, but down the corridor,

:36:31. > :36:36.they have been voting for a price rise. That is right, they voted for

:36:37. > :36:42.a decarbonisation target that everyone accepts would rise prices.

:36:43. > :36:50.If he wants a price freeze, why has he just voted for a price rise? It

:36:51. > :36:54.is just so hard to keep up with this Prime Minister on green levies,

:36:55. > :36:59.isn't it? This is what he was saying in January. Believe it or not, he

:37:00. > :37:07.was boasting about the size of his green levies. He said this, I kid

:37:08. > :37:11.you not, he said, and I quote, "eco-was many times the size of the

:37:12. > :37:22.scheme it replaced, so when it comes to green, the bigger the better" and

:37:23. > :37:29.now he says the opposite. On competition, here is the problem.

:37:30. > :37:34.Here is the problem... He wants a review on energy policy, but that is

:37:35. > :37:40.exactly what the energy companies want, a long enquiry, kicking the

:37:41. > :37:43.problem into the long grass. How well a review that reports next

:37:44. > :37:50.summer help people to pay their bills this winter? --how will. We

:37:51. > :37:55.want to competition enquiry that starts right away, that is our

:37:56. > :37:59.policy. The point about voting for a price rise, he has the answer,

:38:00. > :38:02.because this is what the former Labour energy spokesman, Lord

:38:03. > :38:08.Donoghue, said in the House of Lords, and he should listen... "I

:38:09. > :38:13.have never spoken against a Labour amendment in 28 years in this House,

:38:14. > :38:16.but I am troubled by the consequences for ordinary people.

:38:17. > :38:24.The amendment will raise the cost of living and is in conflict with a

:38:25. > :38:28.future price freeze. " That is from Labour's and policy spokesman of the

:38:29. > :38:32.past in the House of Lords. The fact is the whole country can see he is a

:38:33. > :38:42.one trick pony and he has run out of road. Let me tell him, if he wants

:38:43. > :38:47.to talk about what people are saying...

:38:48. > :38:53.THE SPEAKER: Order. Can we try to recover some semblance of calm? It

:38:54. > :38:58.would be good for the health, beneficial to people's wellbeing.

:38:59. > :39:05.They must try and grow up, even those below the age of 60. His own

:39:06. > :39:08.former environment Secretary, the man in charge of the climate change

:39:09. > :39:14.committee, says his figures are false. That is what he says. Instead

:39:15. > :39:18.of having a review, he has got an opportunity to do something for the

:39:19. > :39:21.public next week. He has got an energy bill going through

:39:22. > :39:25.Parliament. Instead of sitting on his hands, he could amend that Bill

:39:26. > :39:32.to institute a price freeze now. We will support a price freeze, why

:39:33. > :39:39.does he not act? Because it is not a price freeze, it is a price con. And

:39:40. > :39:42.the fact is, he is hiding behind this economically illiterate policy

:39:43. > :39:47.because he cannot talk about the economy, because it is growing. He

:39:48. > :39:51.cannot talk about unemployment, because it is falling. He cannot

:39:52. > :39:55.talk about the deficit, because it has come down. He has nothing else

:39:56. > :40:00.to say, he is a weak leader with no ideas.

:40:01. > :40:06.I will tell you who is weak, it is this Prime Minister, too weak to

:40:07. > :40:10.stand up to the energy companies. Nothing less than a price freeze

:40:11. > :40:16.will do. Because this is the only way that we can deal with the energy

:40:17. > :40:19.companies overcharging. It is time he started acting like a Prime

:40:20. > :40:25.Minister, standing up for consumers and stopped acting like a PR man for

:40:26. > :40:30.the energy companies. I will tell you what is weak and were too weak

:40:31. > :40:35.to stand up and admit their economic failures. Too weak to stand up to

:40:36. > :40:39.Len McCluskey, who tried to wreck the Scotland's petrochemical

:40:40. > :40:45.industry, and too weak to stand up to the Shadow Chancellor... Order!

:40:46. > :40:51.Mister Quinn, recover your composure, man. You are wholly out

:40:52. > :40:56.of control. Prime Minister. Letters just examined what has happened with

:40:57. > :41:00.high speed to this week. The Shadow Chancellor to ring the radio studios

:41:01. > :41:12.telling everyone it won't go ahead -- high-speed two. What has he done,

:41:13. > :41:17.cowered in his office, too weak to make a decision. Britain deserves

:41:18. > :41:27.better than that flopped. -- ban that lot.

:41:28. > :41:34.Last year, businesses, yes businesses, created three times as

:41:35. > :41:38.many jobs in the private sector as well ask in the public sector. So is

:41:39. > :41:43.it not high time, Prime Minister, that those who made the mistake

:41:44. > :41:48.predictions that we would not be able to create as many Private jobs

:41:49. > :41:54.that were lost in the public sector should go on to admit that they got

:41:55. > :41:58.it wrong? My honourable friend is absolutely right. They should admit

:41:59. > :42:02.that they got it wrong. Let us remember what the Leader of the

:42:03. > :42:06.Opposition said as late as March 2012. He said, "you are not going to

:42:07. > :42:12.be able to replace the jobs in the public sector quickly enough in the

:42:13. > :42:17.private sector. We now have 1 million more people employed in our

:42:18. > :42:23.country. 1.4 million private sector jobs, but they are too weak to admit

:42:24. > :42:28.they got it wrong. I'm grateful, Mister Speaker. Does the Prime

:42:29. > :42:32.Minister believed that the accident and emergency crisis in the NHS has

:42:33. > :42:42.anything to do with the fact that he has cut 6,000 nurses since coming to

:42:43. > :42:45.power? What we see in the NHS is 23,000 fewer nonclinical grades,

:42:46. > :42:50.bureaucrats and managers, taken out of the NHS, and we see 4,000 more

:42:51. > :42:55.clinical staff, including over 5,000 more doctors, in our NHS. That is

:42:56. > :42:59.the change we have seen. Just imagine if we had listened to labour

:43:00. > :43:05.and cut the NHS budget. We believe in the NHS and we have invested in

:43:06. > :43:09.it. How does the chamber of commerce reported that the last economic

:43:10. > :43:15.survey shows real business optimism, with the rise of the number of local

:43:16. > :43:19.firms employing UK staff, a rise in UK orders an attempt cent increase

:43:20. > :43:23.in staff. Theirs my right honourable friend agree that this is evidence

:43:24. > :43:27.that the Government's economic plan is working and the party opposite

:43:28. > :43:33.got it wrong. My honourable friend is right. We had to take tough

:43:34. > :43:36.decisions, but growth is there. Unemployment is falling, we have

:43:37. > :43:40.4,000 more businesses in this country and if we had listened to

:43:41. > :43:44.the Shadow Chancellor, who said we were in for a lost decade of growth,

:43:45. > :43:48.we would have higher debts, higher interest rates and it would be the

:43:49. > :43:58.same old outcome under the same old Labour. In a recent survey, 75% of

:43:59. > :44:04.people said they switch their heating of on one or more occasion

:44:05. > :44:08.-- switched their heating off on one or more occasion last winter. Does

:44:09. > :44:15.that rapidly to Prime Minister expect that to go up or down this

:44:16. > :44:20.year -- does the Prime Minister. We have maintained the winter payments,

:44:21. > :44:23.the cold weather payments and increase benefits the poorest

:44:24. > :44:27.families get in this country. That is the action we have taken and we

:44:28. > :44:34.can only afford to because we have taken tough and sensible decisions

:44:35. > :44:37.on the economy. A few days ago, I launched the business case for the

:44:38. > :44:41.electrification of the Harrogate and Knaresborough rail line, for more

:44:42. > :44:44.trains, faster services and better rolling stock. After the last

:44:45. > :44:49.Government electrified just nine miles in 13 years, can my right

:44:50. > :44:53.honourable friend continue to prioritise rail electrification? He

:44:54. > :44:58.makes a very good point, the last Government did just nine miles of

:44:59. > :45:02.electrification in 13 years. Absolutely pathetic. We are putting

:45:03. > :45:09.?1 billion into modernising railways in the North of England. And let's

:45:10. > :45:11.just look again at this issue of HS2. It needs cross-party agreement

:45:12. > :45:17.to make this important infrastructure scream go ahead, and

:45:18. > :45:20.what a pathetic spectacle this week -- infrastructure scheme. One if

:45:21. > :45:23.they are forward, then they are against it and the Leader of the

:45:24. > :45:29.Opposition is too weak to make a decision. I have come across a very

:45:30. > :45:32.interesting interview given to The Times by the Prime Minister, during

:45:33. > :45:37.which he stopped off at his constituency office, to "turn the

:45:38. > :45:41.heating on, so it is nicer when I get back this afternoon" . How many

:45:42. > :45:46.of my constituents does he think will afford such niceties as we

:45:47. > :45:49.approach this winter? His constituents will understand that

:45:50. > :45:54.their price freeze is a price can't. Prices would go up beforehand,

:45:55. > :45:57.prices would go up afterwards and has he himself has admitted, they

:45:58. > :46:05.wouldn't keep their promise because they don't control gas prices. That

:46:06. > :46:11.is why everybody knows it is a con. One of my constituents from

:46:12. > :46:14.Carmarthen left school at 16 and was told that the only choice had was

:46:15. > :46:18.which prison he might end up in. Four years later he is running a

:46:19. > :46:25.chocolate company. Does the Prime Minister agree that the record

:46:26. > :46:29.number of new business start-ups is as much down to people like him than

:46:30. > :46:34.the excellent work of the Chancellor? I joined my my

:46:35. > :46:44.honourable friend in paying tribute to his constituent and the way he is

:46:45. > :46:49.turning his life around. Of course Labour do not want to hear about

:46:50. > :46:52.success stories. They do not care. They do not care about enterprise

:46:53. > :46:58.and small businesses. But it is this enterprise and small business that

:46:59. > :47:08.is turning around our country. There is a new flat launched in my

:47:09. > :47:12.constituency, built as a result of public money under the government's

:47:13. > :47:21.affordable housing scheme. It is a two bedroom flat and it is ?720,000.

:47:22. > :47:27.Does the Prime Minister believe this to be affordable and if so, to whom?

:47:28. > :47:31.We need to build more houses in our country and that is why we are

:47:32. > :47:35.reforming the planning system which they posed. That is why we have

:47:36. > :47:39.introduced helped by, which they opposed. That is why we introduced

:47:40. > :47:45.extra money into affordable housing. They oppose that. They are

:47:46. > :47:51.the build absolutely nothing party and as a result, housing will become

:47:52. > :47:54.less affordable. Over the last few decades, hundreds of millions of

:47:55. > :47:57.people have been lifted out of poverty in India and China. As those

:47:58. > :48:02.people have increased their living standards, the energy demands have

:48:03. > :48:09.increased. Would my honourable friend agree that if we are to have

:48:10. > :48:17.sustainable, long-term energy, the deal which the Prime Minister

:48:18. > :48:22.heralded is a good idea? Think it is an important step forward to

:48:23. > :48:25.encourage inward investment into our country to fund our nuclear

:48:26. > :48:31.programme. That actually means we're going to have dependable low carbon

:48:32. > :48:37.electricity in the future. And to the people who oppose foreign

:48:38. > :48:41.investment, the party opposite, with all the flip-flops they have done

:48:42. > :48:45.this week, I would not be surprised if they started to oppose nuclear

:48:46. > :48:49.energy, too. Foreign investment means we can use our firepower to

:48:50. > :48:56.build hospitals, schools, roads and where Rose. -- and railways. Does

:48:57. > :49:02.the Prime Minister believe that Royal mail was undervalued? When you

:49:03. > :49:08.consider that Royal mail, in the past, was losing billions of pounds,

:49:09. > :49:12.the whole country is far better off with it in the private sector. I've

:49:13. > :49:17.just talked about flip-flops and there is another one from the Labour

:49:18. > :49:21.Party. Who was it that said we needed to privatise Royal mail?

:49:22. > :49:25.Anyone, anyone? Where is Peter Mandelson when you need him? They

:49:26. > :49:29.said we needed private capital and I'd agree. They said we needed

:49:30. > :49:37.private management and I'd agree. And it has taken this government to

:49:38. > :49:47.deliver the policy. With 450,000 new businesses, we have seen the biggest

:49:48. > :49:49.monthly fall on employment -- in unemployment on record. Unemployment

:49:50. > :49:55.is down by 30%. Would the Prime Minister agreed that by supporting

:49:56. > :50:00.businesses to grow, we can and do labour's legacy of unemployment? My

:50:01. > :50:03.honourable friend is right. Whoever is in government right now would

:50:04. > :50:06.have to be making difficult reductions in the public sector.

:50:07. > :50:11.That will obviously leads to the reduction of public sector jobs. We

:50:12. > :50:14.need a strong private sector recovery and that is what we have

:50:15. > :50:19.seen. 1.4 million more jobs in the private sector, meaning that overall

:50:20. > :50:24.there are 1 million more people employed in our country. That is 1

:50:25. > :50:32.million reasons to stick to our plan and reject the medicine suggested by

:50:33. > :50:36.the party opposite. Current legislation to protect agency

:50:37. > :50:40.workers was designed to stop the export Asian migrant workers and

:50:41. > :50:45.protect the wages and conditions our indigenous workers. I know the Prime

:50:46. > :50:48.Minister has spoken on this issue but can he reassure the House that

:50:49. > :50:53.he will resist any temptation to download even further protection for

:50:54. > :50:57.agency workers? You already has! I want to see more jobs in this

:50:58. > :51:01.country, and that means making sure we keep our flexible workforce. Of

:51:02. > :51:08.course, what the honourable gentleman did not tell us is that he

:51:09. > :51:12.chairs the Unite group of Labour MPs. Perhaps he ought to declare

:51:13. > :51:16.that when he steps up. And while he is at it, perhaps you can have a

:51:17. > :51:21.word with Len McCluskey and say that we need to have a proper enquiry

:51:22. > :51:24.into what happened in Unite, with what happened in Grangemouth.

:51:25. > :51:32.Because we know the leader of the Labour Party is too weak to do it

:51:33. > :51:37.himself. The economy is growing by 1.5% in the last six months. During

:51:38. > :51:41.that time, in my constituency the number of job-seekers has fallen by

:51:42. > :51:44.a fifth. Raising living standards requires rater productivity from a

:51:45. > :51:48.skilled workforce. But in Chippenham, hopes were -- five years

:51:49. > :51:52.ago when the national college building programme ran out of money.

:51:53. > :52:01.We'll be Prime Minister join me in backing Wiltshire College's bid to

:52:02. > :52:06.rebuild our campus, for local students to gain the skills that the

:52:07. > :52:08.employers demand? I agree with what my honourable friend said. We

:52:09. > :52:15.remember the disappointment when labour's planned investment

:52:16. > :52:17.collapsed in so many colleges. It is this government that is now putting

:52:18. > :52:24.in the money to see that expansion and improvement happens. And I'm

:52:25. > :52:31.sure that can happen in Wiltshire as well as Whitby. Since two thirds of

:52:32. > :52:33.the green levies on energy bills were established under this

:52:34. > :52:42.government, why is the Prime Minister attacking himself? Many of

:52:43. > :52:48.the green levies were put in place by the party opposite. Let me remind

:52:49. > :52:53.him that one of the first acts of this government was to take the ?179

:52:54. > :52:56.renewable heat initiative, which the leader of the Labour Party wanted to

:52:57. > :53:08.put on every single persons bill in the country, we took that off the

:53:09. > :53:12.bill. We'll be Prime Minister join me in congratulating the workforce

:53:13. > :53:17.at Toyota in my constituency, as well as manufacturers across the

:53:18. > :53:22.country, whose hard work has ensured that car production went up by 10%

:53:23. > :53:27.in the last year? I certainly join my honourable friend and I remember

:53:28. > :53:31.my own visit to Derby. They do not want to hear good news about

:53:32. > :53:36.manufacturing! They do not want to hear good news about the car

:53:37. > :53:39.industry! This country is now a net exporter of cars and we should be

:53:40. > :53:44.congratulating the workforce at Toyota. We should be congratulating

:53:45. > :53:49.the workforce at Land Rover and praising what they are doing at

:53:50. > :53:53.Nissan. These companies are leading the real industrialisation of our

:53:54. > :54:04.country. I was at the works on Monday were the many is leading to

:54:05. > :54:10.more jobs and British at -- the Mini is leading to more jobs and

:54:11. > :54:14.productivity. Launching a report on electoral conduct yesterday, there

:54:15. > :54:17.was shocking examples of racism and discrimination during election

:54:18. > :54:23.campaigns. We'll be Prime Minister back our call to get political

:54:24. > :54:27.parties, the Electoral Commission and the equality and human rights

:54:28. > :54:32.commission to work more proactively now in areas of tension so that the

:54:33. > :54:42.next election can be a battle of ideas and not race hate. I welcome

:54:43. > :54:46.the report of the enquiry into electoral conduct. I will study the

:54:47. > :54:50.report closely. If there is anything we can do on a cross-party basis to

:54:51. > :54:58.keep this racism out of politics, then we should do so. Fax to the

:54:59. > :55:04.regional growth fund, ?8.8 million is being spent reopening the real

:55:05. > :55:09.link, cutting travel times between Burnley and Manchester in half. But

:55:10. > :55:12.better real regulations are also vital for the South of England. Does

:55:13. > :55:16.the Prime Minister agree with me that it is outrageous for the party

:55:17. > :55:26.opposite to be challenging HS2 at the current time, putting jobs in

:55:27. > :55:29.jeopardy? My honourable friend is right to stand up for his

:55:30. > :55:33.constituents and the North of England. Cos there is a real danger

:55:34. > :55:37.with Labour that they are letting down the North of England, letting

:55:38. > :55:39.down the Midlands. Let me remind the Shadow Chancellor of what he said

:55:40. > :55:45.about these transport investments. He said this. Nowhere is consensus

:55:46. > :55:50.more essential than on our national infrastructure. He said this, "

:55:51. > :55:53.Successive governments have docked or delayed vital decisions on

:55:54. > :55:59.infrastructure, allowing short-term politics to get in the way". That is

:56:00. > :56:02.what he said his own words. He is found guilty of short termism and

:56:03. > :56:16.petty politicking. Rather than looking at the national interests. I

:56:17. > :56:19.sensed that the Prime Minister... The Prime Minister is prepared to

:56:20. > :56:23.gamble, along with the Justice Minister, on the proposals for the

:56:24. > :56:29.probation service, especially in light of the tests and trials being

:56:30. > :56:34.called to a halt. Is he prepared to gamble, especially with the lives

:56:35. > :56:41.and safety of my constituents, and other people in this country? And

:56:42. > :56:47.will his gambling wok holdout? What we want is a service that is much

:56:48. > :56:52.more is focused on stopping reoffending and getting results. And

:56:53. > :56:56.also making sure that we give people rehabilitation from the moment they

:56:57. > :56:59.leave prison. That does not happen today but it is interesting. Body

:57:00. > :57:06.six minutes past 12 and not one question from Labour on the economy.

:57:07. > :57:09.The have got nothing to say. They have nothing to offer and they are

:57:10. > :57:15.embarrassed that prediction after prediction was completely wrong.

:57:16. > :57:22.Like my right honourable friend, I agree... Order! A question from the

:57:23. > :57:29.honourable member must, and it will, be heard. Like my honourable friend,

:57:30. > :57:36.I welcome the fall in unemployment. Indeed, down to 3.7% in my

:57:37. > :57:39.constituency. But will he recognise with me that one of the biggest

:57:40. > :57:45.problems is young people with special needs, particularly autism,

:57:46. > :57:47.getting into work. And will he congratulate the London Borough of

:57:48. > :57:54.Redbridge and the interface parents group, where eight project has

:57:55. > :58:01.started with the first young people with special needs in work? I

:58:02. > :58:11.certainly pay tribute to Redbridge and to all those who help children

:58:12. > :58:15.with special needs. We are trying to focus on those who need the help

:58:16. > :58:22.most. Have a question on the economy for the Prime Minister. -- I have.

:58:23. > :58:27.How about this? Does the Prime Minister agree with his own advisers

:58:28. > :58:36.that the government's youth contract is bailing to tackle the appallingly

:58:37. > :58:40.high levels of youth unemployment? -- failing to tackle. What we have

:58:41. > :58:44.seen with the youth contract is thousands of young people to work

:58:45. > :58:47.through our work experience scheme. It has been more successful in the

:58:48. > :58:53.future jobs fund but has cost six times as little through the youth

:58:54. > :58:56.contract. We have also seen 20,000 young people get work opportunities.

:58:57. > :59:00.That is why the youth claimant count is coming down so rapidly. There is

:59:01. > :59:04.far more to do to get young people into work at the fact that we have

:59:05. > :59:07.backed over 1.5 million apprenticeships is a sign of how

:59:08. > :59:14.much we care about getting young people back to work. Does the Prime

:59:15. > :59:17.Minister agree with President Obama that there needs to be additional

:59:18. > :59:21.constraints on how we use intelligence, that we need to more

:59:22. > :59:25.effectively weigh the risks and rewards of our activities? Will he

:59:26. > :59:30.follow the Prime Minister -- President's leads? I have said this

:59:31. > :59:33.in the House before and I'll repeat it again. We will always listen to

:59:34. > :59:38.what other countries have to say but I believe that in Britain we have a

:59:39. > :59:42.good way of having intelligence and security services overseen by a

:59:43. > :59:45.Parliamentary committee, having their work examined by intelligence

:59:46. > :59:49.commissioners and ensuring that the act under a proper legal basis. I'd

:59:50. > :59:53.take those responsibilities very seriously believe we have a good

:59:54. > :00:02.system in this country and we can be proud of the people that work in it

:00:03. > :00:05.and oversee it. We have recently learned that energy security in this

:00:06. > :00:09.country has been outsourced to the Chinese and French, that pensions

:00:10. > :00:13.will be frozen this year and we have no control over the big six. Does

:00:14. > :00:18.the Prime Minister had any regrets about the cack-handed privatisation

:00:19. > :00:21.of the utilities by the former Tory government and the decimation of our

:00:22. > :00:48.call industry? He backed a firm that never built a

:00:49. > :00:51.single power station. I think we should welcome foreign investment to

:00:52. > :01:01.build these important utilities so we can use our power to run

:01:02. > :01:05.hospitals and the things we need. There are in my constituency soon to

:01:06. > :01:11.be 100 wind turbines. These turbines are paid for by my constituents, but

:01:12. > :01:20.they are not constricted or creating jobs in my constituency. Tension he

:01:21. > :01:25.ensure that the changes in green subsidy that I can he ensure that

:01:26. > :01:40.the changes in green subsidy are here in the United Kingdom. We will

:01:41. > :01:43.aim to retard that investment. Will the Prime Minister join me in paying

:01:44. > :01:52.tribute to the positive role played by trade unions in the work of the

:01:53. > :01:57.automotive Council which has brought about a change in the UK car

:01:58. > :02:00.industry. I think it has been very successful and where trade unions

:02:01. > :02:06.play a positive role, I will be the first prize. But where, frankly, we

:02:07. > :02:10.have a real problem with a rogue trade unionist at Grangemouth who

:02:11. > :02:14.nearly brought the Scottish petrochemical industry to its knees,

:02:15. > :02:21.we need to have a proper enquiry. A Labour enquirer. If they had any

:02:22. > :02:24.courage, any vision, any decision-making they would need to

:02:25. > :02:30.recognise they have to have an enquiry to get to the bottom of what

:02:31. > :02:33.happened. Well, and prime ministers questions,

:02:34. > :02:41.they were still shouting at the end the Prime Minister firing on all

:02:42. > :02:46.cylinders -- at PMQs. The usual confrontation across the dispatch

:02:47. > :02:50.box was dominated by energy prices, which will probably not go away as

:02:51. > :02:53.the winter weather comes in and other energy prices announced what

:02:54. > :02:56.their prices are. You can tell the level of debate that was reached

:02:57. > :03:01.when the primaries the called Ed Miliband a one trick pony who has

:03:02. > :03:05.run out of road -- when the Prime Minister called Ed Miliband. I am

:03:06. > :03:10.not sure ponies use the road. He described the Prime Minister is a PR

:03:11. > :03:14.man for the energy companies. Mister Cameron was once a PR man, but not

:03:15. > :03:21.for the energy companies, it was another monopoly he was a PR man

:03:22. > :03:27.for, called ITV at the time. That is a cheeky aside.

:03:28. > :03:32.Let a return to energy. The emails are about that issue, although some

:03:33. > :03:36.people are getting fed up with the subject being dominated by energy.

:03:37. > :03:42.Ian Franken says that if all the Prime Minister has got personal

:03:43. > :03:45.attacks on Ed Miliband, he has lost the argument. This one says that

:03:46. > :03:49.Cameron is hard to listen to and he has no answer to the energy

:03:50. > :03:52.companies and is part of the problem.

:03:53. > :03:55.Colin in Rugby says that Ed Miliband sees to change the record and his

:03:56. > :03:58.continued questions and sound bites about energy prices show a distinct

:03:59. > :04:03.lack of awareness about everything else on the political agenda. Ray

:04:04. > :04:08.Jones from Ashford says that Labour is clearly a one trick pony. All

:04:09. > :04:11.predictions of doom and gloom have failed so their only card to play is

:04:12. > :04:17.energy, and they have even got that wrong, as they have no answer as to

:04:18. > :04:24.what happens in a rising market. Now, the interesting thing, James,

:04:25. > :04:30.was that all of the discussion was about the energy price freeze,

:04:31. > :04:37.proposed by Ed Miliband. We know, putting aside the economic summit it

:04:38. > :04:41.is a politically popular move. -- putting aside the economics of it.

:04:42. > :04:46.There was no viable alternative from the Prime Minister, even though a

:04:47. > :04:49.week ago he said he would float the idea of reducing the green levies

:04:50. > :04:55.and cut bills. So although the Prime Minister did better than last week,

:04:56. > :05:01.the argument was still on Ed Miliband's territory. I think we saw

:05:02. > :05:04.an attempt to move that argument away by the Prime Minister. Ed

:05:05. > :05:08.Miliband back on the same subject but repeatedly, the Prime Minister

:05:09. > :05:13.tried to draw the gym and back to the economy. The Conservatives were

:05:14. > :05:17.better organised than last week -- draw the argument back. They were

:05:18. > :05:21.trying to drag the subject back, to say that Labour, by focusing solely

:05:22. > :05:32.on energy prices, want to talk about it as an exclusion of everything

:05:33. > :05:42.else. But you are right, they will not be able to draw it away from

:05:43. > :05:46.that until they have cancers. The Autumn statement is not another four

:05:47. > :05:50.weeks -- until they have the answers. The Autumn statement is

:05:51. > :05:53.another four weeks, and looking at the green levies and the social

:05:54. > :05:57.policy, but also the actual transportation, the network costs,

:05:58. > :06:00.which is a large part of that, they are talking about looking at that to

:06:01. > :06:05.see if they can do anything to reduce costs. These are the

:06:06. > :06:14.distribution and transmission costs, they are regulated by off game,

:06:15. > :06:18.because it is the National Grid -- Ofgem, whereas they have no power to

:06:19. > :06:24.regulate retail prices, unlike some regulators in France. Ofgem does

:06:25. > :06:27.regulate these prices and there is a bigger chunk of the bill, because

:06:28. > :06:32.they are having to rebuild a transition system to bring in all of

:06:33. > :06:35.the offshore and onshore wind farms, and solar power, which have gone to

:06:36. > :06:41.areas, unlike the new nuclear stations, which are where the grid

:06:42. > :06:43.already exists. I think they are looking across the piece, they know

:06:44. > :06:47.they have to come up with something, but equally, they have to come up

:06:48. > :06:50.with something that is simple and there has to be a figure at the end

:06:51. > :06:56.of the day. However they cook it, there has to be a number at the end

:06:57. > :06:59.that it can be reduced by. The difficulty the Labour is having set

:07:00. > :07:03.the political weather, since the Labour conference and Ed Miliband's

:07:04. > :07:07.speech, is it now gets overtaken by events. The Government has had the

:07:08. > :07:11.time to look at ways not just freezing the bills but actually

:07:12. > :07:15.cutting the bills. The problem for the Government is they seem to make

:07:16. > :07:19.it up as they go along. We feel a very simple policy, which is to

:07:20. > :07:26.freeze energy prices, woodwork, but this week the Prime Minister is

:07:27. > :07:28.talking about green levies and the distribution network. The reality

:07:29. > :07:31.for people, and I don't think they will get bored with this, because as

:07:32. > :07:37.soon as they bills land on their match at home, they look at it

:07:38. > :07:43.gassed, -- soon as their bills land on their match at home, they look at

:07:44. > :07:49.it gassed. As winter approaches, soon as we get a cold weather snap,

:07:50. > :07:54.nobody once... A lot of people will die, that is a reality. That is what

:07:55. > :07:58.we are saying. We want the Government to act now, that is what

:07:59. > :08:03.we are saying. The Government can act now, you are in Government, you

:08:04. > :08:07.are the party in power. Do something about it. Is an energy person in the

:08:08. > :08:14.past, the promise of a freeze is a straightforward political life. --

:08:15. > :08:19.is an energy person. Because of global prices rising, you cannot

:08:20. > :08:22.deliver that freeze without very expensive subsidies and he's

:08:23. > :08:28.refusing to commit to that. The real issue is whether, in the face of

:08:29. > :08:32.expensive global energy, we have a market which is a fare structure,

:08:33. > :08:38.delivering a competitive environment where people can choose and where

:08:39. > :08:43.companies can give the most efficient prices. There, I think, is

:08:44. > :08:49.a perfectly fair argument, saying let's get an independent group like

:08:50. > :08:55.Ofgem to say here is how it works, here are the facts. Are they saying

:08:56. > :08:59.there is a cartel in this report? No. What we are seeing is that in

:09:00. > :09:03.the course of the last two years, seven new companies have come into

:09:04. > :09:07.the utility supply. We want more companies so it is not dominated by

:09:08. > :09:12.the big six. This is an issue the both of you and the whole political

:09:13. > :09:15.class in Westminster, and it is this, at the moment green levies and

:09:16. > :09:23.those associated with green levies are adding around 10% to add bills,

:09:24. > :09:32.around ?112, you both voted for. You can reject those... Let me finish my

:09:33. > :09:36.point. You have also put into the pipeline, both you and the climate

:09:37. > :09:39.change act and you win the coalition came to power, increases in these

:09:40. > :09:43.levies including the carbon floor tax, which will increase these

:09:44. > :09:51.levies so that they become 30% of our bill by 2020, and well at 40% to

:09:52. > :09:55.the price of electricity -- will add 40%. So it is a strange thing when

:09:56. > :09:58.you are lecturing the energy companies to do something about

:09:59. > :10:05.prices went between you, you have consciously added to the nation's

:10:06. > :10:09.energy bills. That is partly true. As you say, both parties, us, when

:10:10. > :10:13.in Government, and the coalition Government, have introduced green

:10:14. > :10:17.levies, which we have all supported and why? Because there are social

:10:18. > :10:24.policy objectives alongside it. See God but you are adding 40% to the

:10:25. > :10:31.bills. -- you are adding 40% of the bills. In the long run, it will

:10:32. > :10:35.reduce bills and it has contributions towards some of the

:10:36. > :10:39.fuel poor. Are we going to abandon that? People wouldn't be fuel poor

:10:40. > :10:47.if they didn't have to pay these extra levies. And the argument that

:10:48. > :10:56.both parties use, that fewer bills are actually going to be less in

:10:57. > :11:01.2020, involves that a Government department has heroic consumptions.

:11:02. > :11:05.Per unit of retail electricity, the price rises by 40%. Things in the

:11:06. > :11:11.pipeline, the two parties have agreed to. You have a fair point in

:11:12. > :11:16.some aspects, which is, perhaps over the last 15 years, we have put more

:11:17. > :11:19.and more obligations onto the utility companies, be it for

:11:20. > :11:29.addressing a fuel of a teak, rue flagging, -- fuel poverty, roof

:11:30. > :11:33.lagging, and now we say, we hate you, you are expensive. So we have

:11:34. > :11:36.forced on them one economic model and blamed them for the

:11:37. > :11:39.consequences. David Cameron is saying we are going to look at that

:11:40. > :11:43.again, in terms of green levies and is it right that by putting the

:11:44. > :11:49.burden on them, it is the consumer who pays? One of the things the

:11:50. > :11:56.Government did do was abolish the warm front scheme, a subsidy for the

:11:57. > :12:01.fuel poor paid out of taxation. It was transferred to the bill payer. A

:12:02. > :12:07.final thought, James? The Government had to come up with something fairly

:12:08. > :12:11.soon. We know they are working hard. The question is whether or not they

:12:12. > :12:20.ultimately produce enough to match Labour's policy in a retail, simple,

:12:21. > :12:29.straightforward on the door sends, around all of the incredibly

:12:30. > :12:33.complicated organs. And there will be a Daily Politics special on

:12:34. > :12:38.December the 4th about the Autumn statement. Something to look forward

:12:39. > :12:41.to. Now, yesterday, we spoke to prominent British Muslim Mo Ansar.

:12:42. > :12:45.His meeting with the former leader of the English Defence League leader

:12:46. > :12:52.Tommy Robinson was the subject of the BBC documentary. They have

:12:53. > :12:57.campaigned against what they see as the Islamic occasion of Britain.

:12:58. > :13:03.Tommy Robinson is explaining his view of the Koran. You can take

:13:04. > :13:10.sexual slaves. You can take outside of marriage... Tell me that path. I

:13:11. > :13:15.don't think you can find it. It is nice to see you reading it, but it

:13:16. > :13:21.is not making a difference, because you distorted. Marry those that

:13:22. > :13:25.please you of other women, two, three or four. If you fear that that

:13:26. > :13:31.not be just, take what your right arm possesses, like slaves. Where

:13:32. > :13:37.does it say sexual slaves? Where does it say it? Don't distorted?

:13:38. > :13:42.Yesterday, when I spoke to Mo Ansar, he had this to say. I did

:13:43. > :13:50.have an impression of Tommy. I had painted him as some kind of figure

:13:51. > :13:55.like Goebbels, the 21st century. And he wasn't like that? Spending time

:13:56. > :13:58.with someone always humanises them and there is a soft side to Tommy,

:13:59. > :14:02.although his rhetoric has been disturbing and the impact he has had

:14:03. > :14:06.on Muslim communities across the country has been disturbing. Like

:14:07. > :14:12.many people, Tommy is a complex character. Mo Ansar talking about a

:14:13. > :14:16.Tommy Robinson, who is in the studio now. He described you as a complex

:14:17. > :14:23.character. How would you describe him, having spent time with him? I

:14:24. > :14:27.liked him, personality wise. What I found was that he was in denial.

:14:28. > :14:30.Even at the end of watching his interview yesterday, when they

:14:31. > :14:33.brought a grooming, he was trying to push the problem away and when

:14:34. > :14:38.Muslim leaders are given platforms, he spends 95% of his time talking

:14:39. > :14:43.about Islam phobia and all of these different things from people who

:14:44. > :14:46.criticise the ideology. If he spent that time tackling the problems

:14:47. > :14:51.within the community, we might be getting somewhere. But Mo was to be

:14:52. > :14:56.seen as a defender of Muslims and Islam, rather than accepting that we

:14:57. > :15:01.have these problems. He has this image of me, that is the image that

:15:02. > :15:06.everybody has been given of all these ordinary people. Why did you

:15:07. > :15:10.leave the English Defence League? I felt it was the way forward. For

:15:11. > :15:13.years, I had been making a noise and trying to get issues that

:15:14. > :15:18.working-class people were feeling in their communities and then I did not

:15:19. > :15:22.want to... I wanted to be part of the solution. You think the EDL is

:15:23. > :15:28.not working. Are you ashamed that you were part of it? I am not, I am

:15:29. > :15:31.a proud that I started it and it has given people a platform but we need

:15:32. > :15:36.to solve the problems, rather than just making noise about it. Moving

:15:37. > :15:39.forward is working with reformists and true moderates within the

:15:40. > :15:43.Islamic community who are willing to accept the problems. Have you

:15:44. > :15:48.actually changed your views? The documentary was all about you going

:15:49. > :15:52.on a journey of supposedly enlightenment that culminates in

:15:53. > :15:59.your decision to quit the EDL Mobutu tweeted just before the programme

:16:00. > :16:03.that your views haven't changed. I was 20 61 started this movement. I'm

:16:04. > :16:11.on a journey at the present. -- when I started. A lot of my views have

:16:12. > :16:15.been distorted. What is your goal now? Initially, you wanted Muslims

:16:16. > :16:22.out of Britain. You have accepted that that cannot happen. That has

:16:23. > :16:26.never been my goal. Never. My goal now, there is a massive gap.

:16:27. > :16:29.Working-class communities have been pushed to the side and people do not

:16:30. > :16:34.feel part of the fabric of the society. That is not the fault of

:16:35. > :16:37.the Muslim community? There is a reason why working-class children

:16:38. > :16:41.are now the biggest underachievers in this country. There is a reason.

:16:42. > :16:44.People do not feel they have the opportunities. A lot of the

:16:45. > :16:49.opportunity for people to turn to the far right is coming from

:16:50. > :16:53.resentment that they are seeing. My goal is to give a healthy platform

:16:54. > :16:57.for debate, rather than being on the streets, to bring these issues to

:16:58. > :17:00.the forefront. They need to be debated and people need to see that

:17:01. > :17:08.they are getting somewhere with them. Do you still regard Islam as a

:17:09. > :17:11.religion of violence and fascism? I think it is untrue that it is a

:17:12. > :17:14.religion of peace. It is not factual. You believe it has a

:17:15. > :17:20.belligerent of violence? It is down to the interpretations of that

:17:21. > :17:26.Scripture. When I met Osama Hassan from Quilliam, he was a very

:17:27. > :17:31.religious man. He is not calling for violence but we cannot say that

:17:32. > :17:35.people who wish to interpret it for violence can do that. I do not

:17:36. > :17:39.understand what you're trying to achieve. You to stop the

:17:40. > :17:47.Islamification of Britain, as you see it? I saw a poll that said that

:17:48. > :17:50.up to 40% of people believe that this will end in an inevitable

:17:51. > :17:54.violent conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims. That is terrifying.

:17:55. > :17:58.People will start preparing for that. I do not want the communities

:17:59. > :18:02.we live in to be the communities affected by this conflict. But you

:18:03. > :18:06.believe that it is a religion of violence? Do you want to ban the

:18:07. > :18:11.building of mosques? We must regulate mosques. We should not have

:18:12. > :18:21.Iran and Saudi Arabia and Qatar dictating which form of Islam,

:18:22. > :18:25.extremist sects, to move forward. We need a platform. Mo Ansar is the

:18:26. > :18:29.wrong person to be pushing forward because he does not accept the

:18:30. > :18:34.fault. You have to ask a question about an Islamic state, governed by

:18:35. > :18:39.sharia law, do you believe that you should chop off hands? When he was

:18:40. > :18:46.pushed, he could not get out of it. In that clip, you are distorting the

:18:47. > :18:51.fact to fit your narrative. You distorted the facts on a part of the

:18:52. > :18:59.Koran, on keeping women as sexual slaves, and that is how you have

:19:00. > :19:02.interpreted it to link it to the cases of Pakistani men grooming

:19:03. > :19:08.white girls. Do you stand by that? In the Koran, it says 14 times that

:19:09. > :19:13.they can take non-Muslim women as slaves. We have to explore the

:19:14. > :19:19.reasons for why 90% of these grills are men and Muslim men called

:19:20. > :19:24.Mohammed. Maybe the men that are justifying their crimes, in large

:19:25. > :19:27.groups of brothers and cousins and friends from work, that is not

:19:28. > :19:35.normal paedophilia. That is a problem. We have to look into this

:19:36. > :19:39.root cause. Do you speak to anyone in the English Defence League? I

:19:40. > :19:43.have buried my head in the sand because this is a community. It is

:19:44. > :19:46.where I'll live and it is the people I see on a daily basis. I have upset

:19:47. > :19:51.a lot of people but and people who understand the causes, the cause is

:19:52. > :19:56.not to have conflict. Do you still speak to people from the EDL? I have

:19:57. > :20:02.not for two weeks but will I, yet? --. I think the only way to solve

:20:03. > :20:05.the problem is to show people from the English Defence League that this

:20:06. > :20:11.is the way. I believe that they should work and listen and reform

:20:12. > :20:32.and meet my breasts. Do you want to see -- mate more -- meet my breasts.

:20:33. > :20:34.Are you aware that you are more likely to die in hospital at the

:20:35. > :20:39.weekend than during the week? The government wants to change this and

:20:40. > :20:43.provide full-time care seven days a week. It would have thought that,

:20:44. > :20:52.and NHS with seven day a week care? But can we afford it and can the NHS

:20:53. > :20:55.treat people all the time? Thomas Hughes Hallett, the chair of the

:20:56. > :20:59.Institute of Global Health Innovation, thinks that some

:21:00. > :21:14.services need to be provided by charities. This is his soapbox.

:21:15. > :21:17.Most of us look after our cars. We have a contract with society to keep

:21:18. > :21:27.them healthy, while they are on the road. And so we get MOT is and

:21:28. > :21:31.servicing. -- MOTs. If only we treated our bodies so well, we could

:21:32. > :21:39.keep them off the scrapheap or avoid unnecessary trips to A We need to

:21:40. > :21:43.take more responsibility for our health and the health of our

:21:44. > :21:46.families, to keep the health service ticking over for everyone. As a

:21:47. > :21:51.society, we have to understand that if we expect the NHS to cope under

:21:52. > :21:58.the ever increasing wave of demand, it will soon break down. To stop

:21:59. > :22:03.this happening, we need to make some tough choices now about what we

:22:04. > :22:08.really need for free from the health service. And the rest, well, we

:22:09. > :22:12.should accept that we need to pay for it, like extras on a car. And we

:22:13. > :22:17.need to provide more for each other in our own communities. For example,

:22:18. > :22:28.the voluntary sector provides services like bereavement

:22:29. > :22:32.counselling or play therapy we need to see more examples of this instead

:22:33. > :22:37.of murdering -- burdening the service. In my study, what stood out

:22:38. > :22:43.is that people want to take back control of their own care. What they

:22:44. > :22:50.need is Saturn have or trip advisors to point them to what is

:22:51. > :22:56.most successful. Chemists, the community support centres, to steer

:22:57. > :22:59.them away from the NHS when they do not need it and sometimes do not

:23:00. > :23:05.want it. That way we can keep the health service on the road for

:23:06. > :23:10.ourselves and future generations. And Thomas Hughes Hallett joins us

:23:11. > :23:13.now. Welcome to the show. You mentioned bereavement counselling

:23:14. > :23:18.and play therapy come examples of services that the voluntary sector

:23:19. > :23:22.could bring in. Where would you draw the line? The evidence that I'd took

:23:23. > :23:25.in Essex demonstrated that the people of Essex recognised fully

:23:26. > :23:34.that what they want from the state is support and emergency care. And

:23:35. > :23:39.they are realists. They know that in 2030, instead of 35,000 people being

:23:40. > :23:43.dependent on social care, 135,000 people are going to be dependent,

:23:44. > :23:47.and the state cannot possibly afford to provide that. For the sake of

:23:48. > :23:54.this argument, let's accent that that is true. Where would you draw

:23:55. > :23:59.the line? -- lets accept. Should gastric band surgery be on the NHS?

:24:00. > :24:04.Yes, if there is a clinical needs. Acupuncture? Acupuncture, I am a big

:24:05. > :24:08.fan of acupuncture and my wife uses it a lot for her back. But the

:24:09. > :24:15.reality is that there are lots of people out there who would be

:24:16. > :24:21.prepared to offer voluntarily, care that is not necessarily clinical in

:24:22. > :24:24.vitro visual sense. As Chief Executive of Mary Creagh, I had

:24:25. > :24:36.100,000 volunteers who supported us every year, from physiotherapists to

:24:37. > :24:44.surgeons. Berwick in Spain is? If there is a physical reason, yes. --

:24:45. > :24:51.Marie Curie. -- varicose veins. Fertility treatment? This is what

:24:52. > :24:54.makes your thesis or difficult because where do you draw the line?

:24:55. > :24:59.People might accept in theory, the argument. That the NHS should get

:25:00. > :25:03.back to basics. But if we go down that road, the question I am asking

:25:04. > :25:08.is the question that will need to be answered. They will. And difficult

:25:09. > :25:11.questions are going to have to be answered. But what I have to be

:25:12. > :25:14.answered. But what I've learned from talking to hundreds and hundreds of

:25:15. > :25:18.people over the last 12 months is that the public is up for it. It is

:25:19. > :25:24.the politicians who are shying away. Alan, where are you on this? It is

:25:25. > :25:28.free of the point of need and that will not change. But demand exceeds

:25:29. > :25:33.supply other has to be a process for determining what is needed. At the

:25:34. > :25:40.moment, everything is done on the NHS? Not absolutely everything. As

:25:41. > :25:44.Tom says... But you expect it. Lots of people are going to Osteopaths

:25:45. > :25:48.and paying themselves. But for the mainstream medical needs of any

:25:49. > :25:53.person, the health service... But he is not arguing about that. You were

:25:54. > :25:57.saying for four -- you are saying that for that to continue, some of

:25:58. > :26:02.this other stuff will be have to moved off balance sheet. I was asked

:26:03. > :26:06.by the government to do a review of the services that the government

:26:07. > :26:10.should provide for end of life care and published that report years

:26:11. > :26:15.ago, which made it absolutely clear what the government would provide,

:26:16. > :26:19.what the voluntary sector would have to step forwards to provide, and

:26:20. > :26:24.what people would have to provide for themselves. That was accepted. I

:26:25. > :26:27.have to say, this is the thin end of the wedge. They will have real

:26:28. > :26:31.problems if you are going to start charging because certain things will

:26:32. > :26:35.be charged and the fundamental principle of the NHS is that it is

:26:36. > :26:38.free at the point of use. If you start charging, you will have a

:26:39. > :26:42.2-tier NHS and the purist will be excluded from some treatments will

:26:43. > :26:45.stop that is not what I was saying. But that is the consequence of what

:26:46. > :26:49.you are proposing. No one is mentioning charging. That is the

:26:50. > :26:53.consequence. I've spent several days in Canvey Island, working with

:26:54. > :26:57.people who are coming together to provide community support networks

:26:58. > :27:02.to support the professionals to deliver better care to the ageing

:27:03. > :27:06.population. But would that be enough people out there to do that?

:27:07. > :27:09.Absolutely. People want the state to be honest with them. They want state

:27:10. > :27:16.to tell them precisely what they will offer free at the point of

:27:17. > :27:19.delivery. So some of these things will be charged for? They could be

:27:20. > :27:24.and people, many of them are happy to pay. High Court, if I could gets

:27:25. > :27:29.to see a doctor at 6pm at night, when I cannot currently, I might be

:27:30. > :27:33.paired to pay for it. What is happening is that 40% of the people

:27:34. > :27:40.by interview in Essex now no longer go to the state as their first point

:27:41. > :27:43.of contact for health care. 25% of pharmacists, 15% Google. The

:27:44. > :27:50.chemists provided for free, for free! The Tories support this? Will

:27:51. > :27:55.leave this question hanging. I have already entered it. Here is a big

:27:56. > :28:02.political question. Is it? Wait for it. Who is the net one and who is

:28:03. > :28:08.the plural one? Our reward for the best guest of the day goes to that

:28:09. > :28:12.woolly wonder, Alan Duncan. Here is taking up the Daily Politics crush a

:28:13. > :28:16.challenge. We were filming you during PMQs. You are looking at him

:28:17. > :28:25.in action. The speed of the man. His fingers a pillar. And what was the

:28:26. > :28:30.finished product? -- blur. It took me half an hour, and it is a bit

:28:31. > :28:40.scrappy but I have done rather well. More Tory deception! The honest

:28:41. > :28:52.truth... We need to give you the answer to GUESSED THE YEAR. Alan,

:28:53. > :28:58.press it. Mike, in Romford. It is a good time for Essex. That said. The

:28:59. > :29:04.one o'clock News is starting on BBC One. I will be on my own tomorrow

:29:05. > :29:12.doing the Daily Politics. Yeah, me. She is going to crochet. Bye-bye.