:00:40. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks. And welcome to the Daily Politics. Turning up the
:00:49. > :00:53.heat on the energy companies, at least trying to. Ed Davey has been
:00:54. > :01:03.telling the Commons how he plans to increase competition in the energy
:01:04. > :01:07.market. Will -- will Labour derail High Speed 2? The Commons votes on
:01:08. > :01:11.the project and we will ask what the opposition are playing at. The
:01:12. > :01:17.Electoral Commission wants this man to reword his EU referendum
:01:18. > :01:21.question because they do not think the great British public knows
:01:22. > :01:28.whether we are in or not. Is Britain a member of the European
:01:29. > :01:40.Union? I think we are. And is there no end to his meddling? They now
:01:41. > :01:49.want to standardise this. FLUSHING. It is very upmarket this morning!
:01:50. > :01:54.With us for the duration, the -- pensions expert, Ros Altman. We
:01:55. > :01:59.will talk about the newspapers. Last night, the queenside and the
:02:00. > :02:05.Royal Charter to regulate the press. The Privy Council placed its seal
:02:06. > :02:09.of approval on the plans after newspapers lost a last ditch
:02:10. > :02:16.attempt to stop the process. It is under way. What do you make of it?
:02:17. > :02:22.A lot of the mainstream press will not join. They will try to stand
:02:23. > :02:27.against this. That will open them up to problems, but they are
:02:28. > :02:33.willing to accept that. I am rather sad. I think that the freedom of
:02:34. > :02:38.the press is one of the big pluses of the society and we have perhaps,
:02:39. > :02:42.over the top. You do not think the Government should have gone down
:02:43. > :02:49.this road? Per Smillie, not. The press, sometimes, is the most
:02:50. > :02:54.effective opposition -- personally. If they are stymied in standing up
:02:55. > :03:01.for the electorate, by politicians, effectively, maybe there is a
:03:02. > :03:07.slippery slope. We will see. This demand for regulation, with the
:03:08. > :03:13.Government role in it, came out of terrible things that were exposed
:03:14. > :03:16.by other parts of the press. Things happening at News International
:03:17. > :03:22.with hacking. The law is now taking its course on that, not regulation.
:03:23. > :03:30.We have systems in place to control wrong doing. And to slap these
:03:31. > :03:33.controls on the press, all risks slapping a potential political
:03:34. > :03:39.control on the press I think is the wrong way to go. We shall see what
:03:40. > :03:47.happens. Now it is time for the daily quiz. According to the papers,
:03:48. > :03:54.the European Union is proposing to standardise lavatory flushes. It is
:03:55. > :03:57.a sort of bog-standard! Did you see that? What will the recommended
:03:58. > :04:19.flush be? At the end of the show, Ros Altman
:04:20. > :04:27.will help to flush out the correct answer. Great script today. Who
:04:28. > :04:32.writes this? They will be fired when I am off the air! It is a big
:04:33. > :04:36.day for High Speed 2. MPs will vote on whether to let the Government to
:04:37. > :04:40.start spending money on preparations for the project. David
:04:41. > :04:44.Cameron and George Osborne hope they can drive it through. Labour
:04:45. > :04:51.have appeared to put the brakes on the project went Ed Balls said the
:04:52. > :04:58.costs have gone up to ?50 billion and there would be no blank cheque
:04:59. > :05:04.for HS2. The Transport Secretary said the new line will only happen
:05:05. > :05:12.with Labour support. David Cameron called Labour weak. What if
:05:13. > :05:16.anything can win round the Conservative backbenchers, who want
:05:17. > :05:21.to see it hit the buffers? When it was discussed in June this year, 21
:05:22. > :05:26.Tories actually voted against. It is not just a Labour problem for
:05:27. > :05:33.the Government. There were rumours 60 could rebel today. Is it all the
:05:34. > :05:43.board for HS2? Are we hitting the end of the line? James is the
:05:44. > :05:48.expert on Labour and HS2. I understand they will vote for this
:05:49. > :05:52.Bill this afternoon. The Labour party will vote for the Bill
:05:53. > :05:56.because it is not the whole thing. What it does today is simply say we
:05:57. > :06:04.will give the Government the authority to spend money, planning,
:06:05. > :06:08.compensation, preliminary work. And Labour are still retaining the
:06:09. > :06:13.right, further down the line, to say no. That is because the second
:06:14. > :06:18.phase of the legislation, the detail, the building, that will
:06:19. > :06:25.happen next year. I understand there is a split between Ed
:06:26. > :06:30.Miliband and Ed Balls. Ed Miliband is generally sympathetic and Ed
:06:31. > :06:36.Balls is more sceptical. That is reasonable. If you talk to Ed
:06:37. > :06:41.Miliband's people, they say he is a supporter and believes it is a good
:06:42. > :06:45.thing. Early in the year he said he thought the economic and social and
:06:46. > :06:51.business case had been made. If you talk to Ed Balls, he says yes, in
:06:52. > :06:56.theory we are in favour, but we have to make sure the money is
:06:57. > :07:02.spent well. He talks about stewardship of money. What I think
:07:03. > :07:07.is going on is that Labour use this as a way of displaying fiscal
:07:08. > :07:11.prudence. The topic when they can show the electorate that if they
:07:12. > :07:15.were elected, they could look after the purse strings and make a
:07:16. > :07:20.difference. Many people in the Labour Party think that is OK, but
:07:21. > :07:25.it is not a sustainable position because nobody is going to invest
:07:26. > :07:30.in the project if it has continuing doubt. For now, the Labour Party
:07:31. > :07:37.maintained that no blank cheque approach. The Government could
:07:38. > :07:43.continue doing what it needs to do until 2015 and then the Government,
:07:44. > :07:48.the Tory party, will say if you vote for us we will continue, it is
:07:49. > :07:53.too late to stop it by 2020, vote for us and we will finish the job.
:07:54. > :07:57.That would leave it open to people like us to say to Labour you need
:07:58. > :08:02.to say whether you are going with it or not. We would ask the
:08:03. > :08:07.question earlier, we would ask it next year, when the detailed Bill
:08:08. > :08:14.comes up. At that stage Labour will have to make a decision. Some in
:08:15. > :08:18.labour say maybe we could sidestep that and allow it to go through
:08:19. > :08:24.without voting for it, but most in Labour say they have to make a
:08:25. > :08:29.decision. Is it a lack of faith in big projects that make them put
:08:30. > :08:35.almost 15 billion of contingency into the budget? There is a mystery
:08:36. > :08:40.about it. They suddenly realised that some of it had not worked out
:08:41. > :08:51.and they need flexibility. A buffer. You always need a buffer for the
:08:52. > :08:59.railway. Flushing, enter the line, puns. James Lewis is a councillor
:09:00. > :09:03.for Leeds. He sits on the West Yorkshire Transport Authority
:09:04. > :09:08.committee. Welcome. You are a council -- your council leader
:09:09. > :09:12.wrote to the Shadow Transport Secretary this week to express
:09:13. > :09:18.concern over the Labour position. What is your view? What would you
:09:19. > :09:22.want the Labour Party to stand for? Our view is clear that for the
:09:23. > :09:26.future of the economy of the North of England we need investment in
:09:27. > :09:30.projects like High Speed 2 and we want to see better Connectivity to
:09:31. > :09:35.the rest of the country and extra capacity. At the moment the
:09:36. > :09:41.Government might not be handling it as well as they made, but it has to
:09:42. > :09:46.be delivered. If we had a high- speed link between London and Leeds
:09:47. > :09:52.Town, what makes you think it would not takes -- take more acid Leeds,
:09:53. > :09:59.rather than leading to greater prosperity for the City -- take
:10:00. > :10:04.more out of. London is a great global economic a city, and faster
:10:05. > :10:08.links must attract jobs to Leeds. We want better connections two
:10:09. > :10:12.international airports when the Government sorts out the airport
:10:13. > :10:17.policy and better connections to the Continent. That has to be good
:10:18. > :10:22.for our city, which is a modern European city and we need to be
:10:23. > :10:29.connected to the rest of the world. The coalition want to proceed. The
:10:30. > :10:36.fly in the ointment is Labour. You must be irritated by this position,
:10:37. > :10:42.of bringing doubt that a project -- to the project? We are clear that
:10:43. > :10:46.Labour is committed. We want to make sure that the long term
:10:47. > :10:52.commitment to deliver it is there and that it is a project that will
:10:53. > :10:56.last beyond the current government. The project was started in the last
:10:57. > :11:01.government and has continued under this government. The why is Ed
:11:02. > :11:07.Balls playing politics with it? He is rightly asking questions about
:11:08. > :11:12.the cost. We want to see... It is not just about the froth of the
:11:13. > :11:19.daily debate. The economic imperative is there to make longer
:11:20. > :11:27.term decisions about infrastructure. There is a big thumbs-up for HS2
:11:28. > :11:35.from you? Yes. We can go to Central lobby. We are joined by a Labour MP
:11:36. > :11:40.and Conservative MP. Welcome. What is Labour playing at? I have to
:11:41. > :11:44.make my position clear at the outset. The Labour Party has won
:11:45. > :11:51.position and I have voted consistently against it. -- one
:11:52. > :11:55.position. A are they now coming in your direction? I have tried to
:11:56. > :12:01.make the case to say we need a moratorium. What has been said is
:12:02. > :12:06.important. We have problems with Connectivity and capacity. This has
:12:07. > :12:10.gone the wrong way around. The project is being imposed on us
:12:11. > :12:15.without looking at whether it is the best use of money. The
:12:16. > :12:22.counsellor we just heard from, part of your party, and the head of
:12:23. > :12:27.Birmingham City Council, they do not want a moratorium. They are
:12:28. > :12:34.telling Westminster to get on with it. We are 30 years behind on high-
:12:35. > :12:39.speed, get it done. I would say get on with improving the
:12:40. > :12:43.infrastructure. But if we are spending ?50 billion, which is
:12:44. > :12:48.likely to rise to 75 billion, we need to sit down and make sure it
:12:49. > :12:55.is the best project and I am not convinced. As Ed Balls spoken about
:12:56. > :13:00.this to you? He has not. Should he? Why would he not speak to you? I do
:13:01. > :13:06.not think it is deliberate. I will make sure I find him today and have
:13:07. > :13:11.a word with him. Stewart Andrew, where are you won this? I am in
:13:12. > :13:15.favour. We are at the stage where we need to tackle long-term
:13:16. > :13:22.problems. The capacity issue is an issue now and will get worse by
:13:23. > :13:29.2020. Why do you need high-speed to deal with capacity? And having
:13:30. > :13:37.looked at the capacity figures, they are not convincing. I travel
:13:38. > :13:44.on the train a lot. What we used to call the InterCity routes. A lot of
:13:45. > :13:49.the time, they are not packed, even in peak time. Commuter trains are
:13:50. > :13:54.packed, not long distance. A you must use different trains. When I
:13:55. > :14:01.go back to my constituency, after 2:30pm, you struggle to find a seat.
:14:02. > :14:06.It is set to get worse. Passengers numbers have doubled and that is
:14:07. > :14:10.set to increase. The existing mainline routes cannot cope. We
:14:11. > :14:15.have spent billions of pounds upgrading the West Coast Main Line.
:14:16. > :14:20.Now we are at capacity again. The only way to solve it is to have a
:14:21. > :14:25.new line and if we do that, let's use the best technology. Let's be
:14:26. > :14:31.proud of it. It is now 30 years out of date. What do you say to the
:14:32. > :14:36.capacity argument? Billions of pounds already spent has been on
:14:37. > :14:42.consultancy fees. That needs addressing. What we are talking
:14:43. > :14:46.about is the economic competence. That is where Ed Balls and Labour
:14:47. > :14:53.have been strong, saying they are not prepared to write a blank
:14:54. > :15:00.cheque. Nobody is asking for that. I think they are asking for a blank
:15:01. > :15:05.cheque. What I'd like to see his evidence of every single other
:15:06. > :15:17.option that has been explored and why HS2 is the best option.
:15:18. > :15:23.Quite a few Conservatives are on the other side of the argument. How many
:15:24. > :15:28.would you regard as rebels? The are not rebels, they are legitimate.
:15:29. > :15:35.Forget the word, how many do not agree? We will see. I do not know. I
:15:36. > :15:39.think we will have the vast majority of conservatives. 21 voted against
:15:40. > :15:47.it last time. Possibly the same again full of the fact is that we
:15:48. > :15:55.have to continue to make the case. The argument before was about speed
:15:56. > :15:58.and that is not the issue. It was very good of the transport
:15:59. > :16:02.Department to work out that people like us can actually work on trains,
:16:03. > :16:09.that was a revelation. It shows they do not get out very often. I label
:16:10. > :16:18.MPs -- Labour MPs moving in your direction? There were 27 people of
:16:19. > :16:22.all sides of the house last time we voted against this, that is not a
:16:23. > :16:39.great number. I am hoping it will be more today. Thank you. You will be
:16:40. > :16:44.our default theme. Are you for or against? I am for. We need to renew
:16:45. > :16:51.our infrastructure. When you look around the rest of Europe, we are so
:16:52. > :16:57.far behind. HS2 is only one bit. We need more than that. Are we not
:16:58. > :17:02.looking at a late 20th-century technology that we have missed the
:17:03. > :17:10.boat on, trying to catch it up and the world has moved on? We will have
:17:11. > :17:15.holograms on the table, and by 2030, the world will probably be full of
:17:16. > :17:20.driverless cars. There will be other things we need to do as well. I
:17:21. > :17:25.think we have a project ready to go, we have seen these things take so
:17:26. > :17:32.long. If we wait there will be another lot of technology. Today
:17:33. > :17:36.will be out of date. Thank you. Just before we came near, Ed Davey made
:17:37. > :17:43.his annual energy statement. I know you have been waiting for it. --
:17:44. > :17:49.came on here. He announced new plans to make it easier for consumers to
:17:50. > :17:54.switch energy plans. He also suggested the issue of market
:17:55. > :17:57.competition. In our debates on energy bills, many have been asking
:17:58. > :18:03.questions about whether competition is working in the energy market full
:18:04. > :18:11.of well this coalition has already done a lot to promote competition,
:18:12. > :18:14.and we are ready to do more. We propose to introduce annual reviews
:18:15. > :18:20.of the state of competition in the energy market. The first of these
:18:21. > :18:27.assessments will be delivered by spring next year. The assessment
:18:28. > :18:33.will be undertaken by Ofgem, working closely with the Office of Fair
:18:34. > :18:36.Trading. The exact metrics for the review will be a matter for the
:18:37. > :18:41.regulator but I will be asking them to in-depth across the sector at
:18:42. > :18:48.profits and prices, barriers to entry and consumer engagement. This
:18:49. > :18:54.government has equipped the regulator with strong powers. It
:18:55. > :19:00.uses a phone, they must be addressed. We need to make sure
:19:01. > :19:07.energy supplies are open and honest. -- if abuse is found. I have asked
:19:08. > :19:16.Ofgem to deliver by spring next year to report. -- a full report. They
:19:17. > :19:24.will build on the work completed by BDO. Ofgem will be publishing the
:19:25. > :19:28.consultation this afternoon. The public need to know that our reforms
:19:29. > :19:35.will have teeth, that companies that play outside the rules will be
:19:36. > :19:42.penalised and punished. Ofgem have the powers to require compensation
:19:43. > :19:47.payments to be made directly to consumers who have lost out. I want
:19:48. > :19:53.to go further. I intend to consult on the introduction of criminal
:19:54. > :19:56.sanctions for anyone found manipulating energy markets and
:19:57. > :20:02.harming the consumer interest. I am joined by Angela Knight, chief
:20:03. > :20:07.executive of Energy UK. Why does it take so long to switch energy
:20:08. > :20:11.suppliers? Predominantly because there is a two-week cooling off
:20:12. > :20:19.period, set out as a statutory requirement. Then there is a debt
:20:20. > :20:24.piece, where individuals have the opportunity to sort it out if they
:20:25. > :20:29.have any. Then the balancing mechanisms, which are not owned by
:20:30. > :20:32.the industry. That is why it comes down to five weeks. We have done
:20:33. > :20:36.quite a lot of work on this already and we reckon some of those changes
:20:37. > :20:42.can undoubtedly take place at the same time. The big question is
:20:43. > :20:46.whether that consumer protection piece is removed or left. We need to
:20:47. > :20:50.have a discussion about that. That is up to the customers. We do not
:20:51. > :20:55.know at the moment what the balancing mechanism is. You would
:20:56. > :21:00.like to see it happen a lot more quickly? We think it is possible to
:21:01. > :21:04.do that. We have done some of the work in the weeds of this. It is
:21:05. > :21:10.more, betrayed underneath than one thinks. This is one of those areas.
:21:11. > :21:15.Lots of parties are involved, not just the energy companies. Why don't
:21:16. > :21:21.you just get together and do it? That is exactly what we are doing.
:21:22. > :21:24.We kept the department involved. I believe the Secretary of State, when
:21:25. > :21:29.he made his England, referenced the work we do it. Why not implemented
:21:30. > :21:33.now? People are desperate to change suppliers. The bills are going up
:21:34. > :21:42.and the winter is upon us. I tried to change my supplier and it is a
:21:43. > :21:47.nightmare. I have a reasonable education, a degree in economic, and
:21:48. > :21:51.a name that some people recognise and it was still a nightmare. What
:21:52. > :22:00.chance would my grandmother have had? 3 million households are
:22:01. > :22:07.changing every year, more doing it on tariffs with one company. They
:22:08. > :22:13.are changing on average so it cannot be that much of a nightmare. Why
:22:14. > :22:17.shouldn't it take more than two weeks? I'm not sure that it
:22:18. > :22:22.necessarily does. You have the two-week cooling off period and then
:22:23. > :22:32.you have the organisations that have to be notified. Right now, I don't
:22:33. > :22:37.know how their systems are to do that. I do know that we can shorten
:22:38. > :22:43.things but I'm not going to make promises for third parties with
:22:44. > :22:48.which we do not understand their mechanisms. I can make a promise
:22:49. > :22:53.that switching quickly can be done and there is a lot of work underway
:22:54. > :22:58.and we can bring forward some of those changes pretty quickly. Why
:22:59. > :23:04.won't you energy companies, that you represent, tell us the wholesale
:23:05. > :23:11.cost of the electricity they generate? A lot of that is already.
:23:12. > :23:18.There is a wholesale market report prices regularly. That is the
:23:19. > :23:26.wholesale market. Why do we not know the energy generation costs of the
:23:27. > :23:31.big six? I'm surprised you say that because they report them in a
:23:32. > :23:34.segregated way, provided to Ofgem, the regulator, which has been
:23:35. > :23:39.subject to not only to the scrutiny of the regulator but also by third
:23:40. > :23:45.parties. Are you saying it is possible for us to see the
:23:46. > :23:53.generating cost, let's take one of the big six, to see how much it cost
:23:54. > :23:58.to generate the electricity and then the retail mark-up that same company
:23:59. > :24:04.put on its own electricity? Can you do that? Have a look at the
:24:05. > :24:10.accounts. You are the expert. Can you do that? The accounts are there,
:24:11. > :24:15.they are public. A separate out generation, retail, you can work
:24:16. > :24:20.your way through. -- they will separate. You can see what the sales
:24:21. > :24:31.margins are. I think it is all there. You represent them. What is
:24:32. > :24:37.the wholesale generating cost of Centrica? I'll have to go and look.
:24:38. > :24:44.For us to be able to judge if the retail price is fear, we need to
:24:45. > :24:47.know the mark-up. I will let you know when I at them and I will let
:24:48. > :24:53.you know that. We're not talking about secret. We are providing
:24:54. > :24:59.information transparently. The question is whether there is more
:25:00. > :25:09.that is required. That is fine. There is no black hole here. There
:25:10. > :25:13.is no opiate thing. -- opaque. You require more, that is fine, more can
:25:14. > :25:16.be required. Do not forget that generation is done by many
:25:17. > :25:25.companies, lots of independent generators. I was just asking for
:25:26. > :25:29.one. Energy and gas is boss unsold. Now you are telling me things that I
:25:30. > :25:34.know, what I was trying to do was get you to tell me something I don't
:25:35. > :25:41.know, but you are not able to do that. I cannot. I have not gone and
:25:42. > :25:48.Luke. Thank you. Thank you. You can go... We are joined by the editor of
:25:49. > :25:54.Which Magazine. I am sad to say, Angela Knight will not debate with
:25:55. > :26:01.you. Why is that? She is very good at debating the indefensible. Why
:26:02. > :26:05.will she not debate with you? Have you upset her? We had a debate in
:26:06. > :26:09.front of the energy industry about whether the suppliers could win back
:26:10. > :26:16.the trust and the audience voted against Angela. It cannot be that!
:26:17. > :26:26.You must have annoyed her. Let me ask you this, can we discern the
:26:27. > :26:32.wholesale price of each individual electricity generator? We cannot.
:26:33. > :26:38.Angela was wrong. We spent a year looking at this. Can you discover
:26:39. > :26:44.the wholesale price of gas and electricity? The answer is you
:26:45. > :26:50.cannot. Unless you are an industry insider, you cannot. I will tell you
:26:51. > :26:55.why, the large companies sell themselves gas and electricity at
:26:56. > :27:01.huge volumes, under the counter, they call it over the counter. You
:27:02. > :27:04.cannot discover what price British Gas are buying their gas and
:27:05. > :27:11.electricity from Centrica in two years time. Which is the same
:27:12. > :27:15.company. The same company. When they discuss profit margins they only
:27:16. > :27:20.talk about the retail business, they do not talk about the group. If you
:27:21. > :27:24.look at the groups, the profit margins are two or three times
:27:25. > :27:27.greater than the likes of Angela Knight will ever admit. There is
:27:28. > :27:33.something murky going on and it is right to get that out in the open.
:27:34. > :27:43.Let me unravel this, are you saying I could not go to Ofgem or the
:27:44. > :27:48.company itself? Let us take Centrica. I could not work out how
:27:49. > :27:57.much it has cost them to generate the electricity from their gas and
:27:58. > :28:03.then work out how much of a mark-up they have put on to reach the retail
:28:04. > :28:06.price? You could not at the moment. What you can discover
:28:07. > :28:13.retrospectively is some of that data when they publish it through the
:28:14. > :28:17.price collection departments. That is retrospective. You cannot
:28:18. > :28:28.discover know what the competitive wholesale price of gas relativity
:28:29. > :28:31.is. -- gas or electricity. There is probably more cost being passed on
:28:32. > :28:36.to the consumer because a lack of price comparison exists. That is why
:28:37. > :28:41.we want to see a separation of these big six companies. You want to break
:28:42. > :28:46.them up? We want them to have a separate license treated separately
:28:47. > :28:51.so there is a proper transparent market for wholesale, for gas and
:28:52. > :28:54.elegant as a tea. Let me ask you another question. -- gas and elegant
:28:55. > :29:09.city. When we see rates of return for
:29:10. > :29:16.energy companies, are you saying that is just their low margin retail
:29:17. > :29:18.business and not the high margin generation business? I am saying
:29:19. > :29:25.exactly that. If you would the margins, their profit margins for
:29:26. > :29:31.the group with generation and wholesale is upwards of 18%. If we
:29:32. > :29:35.want to have an honest debate about whether these very large companies
:29:36. > :29:39.are making excessive profits, we need to look at the whole group, not
:29:40. > :29:44.just the bit of it that Angela and her friends want to speak about. How
:29:45. > :29:52.quickly should we be able to switch? What was your reaction is to mark it
:29:53. > :29:58.is amazing. It takes people eight weeks or more. It takes long time is
:29:59. > :30:04.to navigate. It should be possible in a day. Ed Davey provided the
:30:05. > :30:08.amazing spectacle of a Secretary of State announcing that there will be
:30:09. > :30:13.quicker switching at some point in the future, let's see if that
:30:14. > :30:17.happens, and here's asking the regulators to do their job, look at
:30:18. > :30:23.the market and see if it is working competitively. I thought that was
:30:24. > :30:28.their job. It is! It is so little and so late. Have you ever tried? It
:30:29. > :30:37.is a nightmare. You are absolutely right. Older people are particularly
:30:38. > :30:41.vulnerable. They cannot always navigate the system. It takes a long
:30:42. > :30:46.time. We have a system that is not working well for the consumer. The
:30:47. > :30:53.energy prices have gone up a lot more than other countries. Not
:30:54. > :30:57.places like Germany or Denmark. But they have even more stringent green
:30:58. > :31:08.taxes. We have to get control of this.
:31:09. > :31:17.I am going to make it my mission to bring you and Angela Knight
:31:18. > :31:23.together. Please do. Now, to the Old Bailey. Our correspondent has
:31:24. > :31:26.been following the morning in the trial of Rebekah Brooks and Andy
:31:27. > :31:31.Coulson, the Prime Minister's former head of communications. We
:31:32. > :31:38.have been busy with other things, so tell us what has happened in
:31:39. > :31:42.court. The court heard for three hours from the prosecutor. The
:31:43. > :31:46.second day for him in terms of the opening statement. It is the work
:31:47. > :31:51.of the convicted phone hacker Glenn Mulcaire has dominated what has
:31:52. > :31:56.been heard. He worked at the paper for a six-year period, the News Of
:31:57. > :32:03.The World. Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson were in charge at that time.
:32:04. > :32:08.They heard how he worked, getting pin numbers and mobile phone
:32:09. > :32:14.numbers. And then bid documents handed to the police in 2011 that
:32:15. > :32:18.kicked off the investigation -- and then the documents. One day, Glenn
:32:19. > :32:23.Mulcaire wrote to a senior member of staff at the News Of The World
:32:24. > :32:34.and he referred to Tessa jowl and her husband. He gave her phone
:32:35. > :32:39.number and -- -- Jowell. He said it looked like she was selling up.
:32:40. > :32:43.There was then an e-mail talking about you have to decide whether I
:32:44. > :32:49.have been hacking have. In another e-mail, Glenn Mulcaire said there
:32:50. > :32:54.are 45 messages. The prosecution said he would have only got the
:32:55. > :32:58.details if he had hacked her telephone. And then he looked at
:32:59. > :33:03.the jury and said after that this information came to light, what is
:33:04. > :33:09.the editor's question, how do I know it is true, before he decides
:33:10. > :33:14.to publish the story? He said that Andy Coulson, the former adviser to
:33:15. > :33:20.David Cameron, who was editor at the time. We have a lot of
:33:21. > :33:25.reporting restrictions. If you cannot answer, do not think badly
:33:26. > :33:30.of it. Yesterday, we learned there were senior news editors from the
:33:31. > :33:34.News Of The World to have pleaded guilty. That became public
:33:35. > :33:39.knowledge yesterday. Will these news editors, who have gone for the
:33:40. > :33:46.guilty plea, will they give evidence for the prosecution in
:33:47. > :33:50.this trial? We do not know is the short answer. We learned yesterday
:33:51. > :34:00.that four people have pleaded guilty. Glenn Mulcaire, he pleaded
:34:01. > :34:04.-- he pleaded guilty to further charges. Neville Thurlbeck, James
:34:05. > :34:09.Weatherup and Greg Miskiw. Ian Edmondson, the 4th news editor
:34:10. > :34:14.working at the News Of The World at the time, he is at trial here and
:34:15. > :34:18.he denies the charges. As to who will give evidence, and we could be
:34:19. > :34:25.here for a long time, we do not know.
:34:26. > :34:33.You are watching Daily Politics. We have been joined by viewers in
:34:34. > :34:42.Scotland. They have been watching first minister's questions live.
:34:43. > :34:44.Welcome. It'S as bad for you as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, it
:34:45. > :34:47.increases the risk of illnesses like dementia and heart problems
:34:48. > :34:50.and it mainly targets older people. It's not a medical disease, it is
:34:51. > :34:56.loneliness. In England alone, almost a million are classed as
:34:57. > :35:02.chronically lonely. There will be more in Scotland, Wales and
:35:03. > :35:04.Northern Ireland. Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary, recently said
:35:05. > :35:07.loneliness and our response to it shamed the nation. But is what the
:35:08. > :35:11.government doing about it actually enough? Or is it an issue where we,
:35:12. > :35:13.the public, should look to ourselves rather than blame the
:35:14. > :35:25.politicians? David Thomson has been reporting. # And it could be me...
:35:26. > :35:29.Henderson court in north London where Age UK run a day centre and
:35:30. > :35:34.people who use it talk honestly about getting older and being on
:35:35. > :35:42.your own. I do feel lonely sometimes. They do not help, the
:35:43. > :35:54.young folks. If you have no family, it is hard to talk to people about
:35:55. > :36:01.your life. Cold beds, lonely beds. Loneliness. And we respect older
:36:02. > :36:07.people and think they deserve the best. Politicians are no different.
:36:08. > :36:12.But how come that for so many, old age can be in isolation and
:36:13. > :36:17.loneliness. Each and every lonely person to have someone who could
:36:18. > :36:22.visit them. The forgotten 1 million living among us, ignored to our
:36:23. > :36:27.national shame. Politician has are taking it on board. This was Jeremy
:36:28. > :36:31.Hunt last week. Even his ministerial colleagues wonder if
:36:32. > :36:37.the approach is right. I thought his analysis was spot on. His move
:36:38. > :36:40.to the blame game, saying families let their grandparents and their
:36:41. > :36:45.parents down by not providing support, it missed the fact there
:36:46. > :36:50.are 6 million carers and I know from messages I have read since
:36:51. > :36:53.that speech, they are in despair and outraged by a speech that
:36:54. > :37:00.implies in some way they do not do enough. But there is also a cost to
:37:01. > :37:04.being a compassionate society that the politicians and public aspire
:37:05. > :37:10.to be. They is a lot we can do as individuals, but there is a lot
:37:11. > :37:13.politicians can do. They need to join up between talking about
:37:14. > :37:18.loneliness and making hard choices about where they put their money.
:37:19. > :37:22.They need to invest in low-level, local facilities, such as day
:37:23. > :37:27.centres. They make a huge difference. Perhaps a part of the
:37:28. > :37:34.problem is not how we treat older people, but how we think of them.
:37:35. > :37:39.We need to challenge negative stereotypes about older people and
:37:40. > :37:44.ageing, that portrayed older people as a burden, ticking time bombs
:37:45. > :37:48.exploding under the NHS. Older people contribute to the economy
:37:49. > :37:53.more than they cost the economy. They are valuable, their wisdom and
:37:54. > :37:58.talents should be better used. That is one way we can tackle social
:37:59. > :38:04.isolation. That is why I think we need a commissioner to trace -- to
:38:05. > :38:08.chase government and make sure it does what is necessary to look
:38:09. > :38:14.after the interests of older people. Dignity, security and companionship.
:38:15. > :38:21.To make them happen takes deeds and not words from everyone.
:38:22. > :38:28.You follow these things carefully. This is a serious problem. It is.
:38:29. > :38:36.But it is also important to stress that the real problems occur much
:38:37. > :38:40.older than the typical old person would be perceived to be. In this
:38:41. > :38:46.country we have a stereotype that when you hit 60, even 70, you are
:38:47. > :38:51.somehow decrepit, you cannot contribute. People in the film are
:38:52. > :38:59.advanced in years, Eighties and Nineties, but it is important to
:39:00. > :39:05.stress that loneliness does affect older people, the older they are,
:39:06. > :39:10.but at the later stages. Families are more dispersed. Fur the to
:39:11. > :39:16.travel to see them. Sometimes you cannot go to see them -- further.
:39:17. > :39:20.What should the response be? There is a default position there is a
:39:21. > :39:24.problem and what will the Government do? The Health Secretary,
:39:25. > :39:28.we tried to get him on today, but he would not, but he has been
:39:29. > :39:32.criticised for identifying the problem and not doing anything
:39:33. > :39:37.about it. The solution might be in our hands. We have heard the fine
:39:38. > :39:43.words. One problem we have that need sorting out is the social care
:39:44. > :39:48.system is dysfunctional. If we spend a little bit of money on
:39:49. > :39:52.helping lonely older people, as you said at the beginning, their health
:39:53. > :39:56.would be better and it would save money for the NHS. When it comes to
:39:57. > :40:02.health, the NHS is a nationwide system, with social care it is
:40:03. > :40:06.parcelled up to local councils. The idea of a commissioner for older
:40:07. > :40:12.people is good. Wales has one. England does not. Are the older
:40:13. > :40:16.people in Wales are any less slowly than the people in England? Of
:40:17. > :40:19.course not. Appointing the commissioner is sometimes a
:40:20. > :40:25.political way of being seen to do something. But they have no
:40:26. > :40:31.representation. What about charities and individuals getting
:40:32. > :40:34.together and having 15 minute visits, identifying a number of
:40:35. > :40:43.older people and saying one will visit this person every couple of
:40:44. > :40:48.days? There is not one magic silver bullet. The charities already do
:40:49. > :40:54.marvellous work. It needs to be centralised, I think, and organised.
:40:55. > :40:59.If you had a centralised and organised system which said we have
:41:00. > :41:03.an issue with millions of people who are well advanced in years on
:41:04. > :41:07.their own, the older you are there fewer friends you have because they
:41:08. > :41:12.might have died. Let's recognise that. Harness the ability is an
:41:13. > :41:16.strengths of people in their sixties and seventies and when you
:41:17. > :41:22.get much older, we need to look after people in a different way
:41:23. > :41:27.from how we do now. I am glad we have brought some attention to it.
:41:28. > :41:31.Earlier this month, the Prince of Wales addressed the National
:41:32. > :41:36.Association of Pension Funds. He gets about. He urged the industry
:41:37. > :41:40.to ensure that portfolios are resilient in the long term, or risk
:41:41. > :41:47.condemning future generations to, quote, an exceptionally miserable
:41:48. > :41:52.future. I would argue that as the largest class of institutional
:41:53. > :41:58.investor, and as a sector defined by your long-term liabilities, you
:41:59. > :42:03.have a need, and arguably a duty, to ensure these emerging
:42:04. > :42:11.environmental and social and economic risks are identified and
:42:12. > :42:14.managed. With an ageing population, and pension fund liabilities that
:42:15. > :42:19.are there for stretching out for decades, surely the current focus
:42:20. > :42:25.on quarterly capitalism is increasingly unfit for purpose?
:42:26. > :42:31.There is also mounting evidence from the likes of Harford and
:42:32. > :42:35.London Business Schools, that those companies that improve the way they
:42:36. > :42:41.tackle environmental and social challenges proved to be the ones
:42:42. > :42:47.better able to deliver the long term returns. You can have your
:42:48. > :42:55.cake and eat it. Prince Charles. I wonder who he has his pension with.
:42:56. > :43:04.That would be a -- that would be us! The a joined by their minister.
:43:05. > :43:11.It is a fundamental question. -- we are joined. Can you argue pensions
:43:12. > :43:15.are a good investment? Absolutely. We are about to put 10 million
:43:16. > :43:19.people into a workplace pension and for every ?1 they put in, their
:43:20. > :43:26.farm and the taxpayer puts in another ?1. What other investments
:43:27. > :43:32.can you turn ?1 into ?2 overnight? Many would take two paths and turn
:43:33. > :43:39.it back into one band. We have talked about a limit on charges. --
:43:40. > :43:45.?1. 99p of the ?1 in the pension turns into a pension, which would
:43:46. > :43:51.be an advance. ?30 billion of pension savings, languishing in
:43:52. > :43:57.poorly performing funds. That is hard earned cash. That is why we
:43:58. > :44:02.are taking action. For too long, money has been left in old funds,
:44:03. > :44:07.when higher charges were the norm. One thing we do with automatic
:44:08. > :44:12.enrolment, if we set standards, the firms will not be able to use the
:44:13. > :44:19.old schemes. We will not allow that. Should you have sorted out pension
:44:20. > :44:25.fees before automatic enrolment? So that people... Employers being
:44:26. > :44:30.forced to put in matching contributions are not going to be
:44:31. > :44:33.ripped off? Were have been doing this for a year and it has been the
:44:34. > :44:37.big employers such as the big supermarkets, who have the buying
:44:38. > :44:41.power to negotiate good deals with the pensions industry. We are
:44:42. > :44:46.acting now because when you get to smaller firms, they might not have
:44:47. > :44:53.the buying power and interest. So far, people have got good deals. We
:44:54. > :44:58.have to make sure it goes on. If you saved up and you bought a small
:44:59. > :45:03.second home, a flat, in a reasonably prosperous part of the
:45:04. > :45:08.country, when you retire, you would get a better return than these
:45:09. > :45:11.pensions? It might be fantastic and it might be terrible. I do not want
:45:12. > :45:25.my retirement to be that uncertain. There are so many problems with
:45:26. > :45:31.pension. They have had a very bad press. Deservedly. There has been
:45:32. > :45:37.lots of scandals. It is correct to control the charges. One of the big
:45:38. > :45:40.issues we are not looking at yet is once you have built up a pension
:45:41. > :45:49.fund you have to take an income out of it. At that point, when you buy
:45:50. > :45:57.an annuity. When you buy that, there are no controls on the charges. You
:45:58. > :46:01.could lose a lot if you die quickly. That has to change. We need to make
:46:02. > :46:09.sure that we get good value when building up the fund, but also when
:46:10. > :46:14.you take it down. Annuity rates have been terrible for some time. That is
:46:15. > :46:19.partly a real thing, partly because we are living longer, and I entirely
:46:20. > :46:25.agree that as well as addressing getting people into savings, dealing
:46:26. > :46:30.with cost, we need to deal with how to turn that into a pension. The
:46:31. > :46:36.Financial Conduct Authority, newly created this year, is doing a lot of
:46:37. > :46:41.work, I am working with the Treasury to make sure that is the big thing
:46:42. > :46:45.we work on. What should he do to ensure we get a better pension
:46:46. > :46:50.system? We need more flexibility in the system. At the moment, when you
:46:51. > :46:55.put your money into a pension, if you need that back you cannot get
:46:56. > :46:58.it. When you put it into an annuity, if you have done the wrong thing you
:46:59. > :47:03.can never change it. We have the most inflexible system, and I know
:47:04. > :47:07.that Steve understands this. He is doing some great work in trying to
:47:08. > :47:14.improve the pension system. I applaud him for that. It is a
:47:15. > :47:22.difficult job. A lot of younger people look at what has happened to
:47:23. > :47:28.the pensions of their parents. They think, really? Maybe I will do
:47:29. > :47:35.something else. Older people always say they wish they started sooner.
:47:36. > :47:44.But the young are more likely to stay in than the old. Vacancy
:47:45. > :47:49.rewards down the road? We are going in gradually. They barely notice.
:47:50. > :48:02.That gives us a real chance to turn this around. We need to encourage
:48:03. > :48:09.people to do more than the minimum. You can have an Isa, then you lose
:48:10. > :48:15.the contribution. That might be OK for some younger ones. If you have
:48:16. > :48:22.these schemes, any time you get a pay rise, encourage people to put a
:48:23. > :48:30.bit of money away for the future. Not necessarily locked up but at
:48:31. > :48:36.least long-term saving. It is easier for them. That would help with
:48:37. > :48:44.longer savings. But you will do something about these fees?
:48:45. > :48:53.Absolutely. We will legislate by Easter. We better leave it there. Do
:48:54. > :48:59.you know where you live? Are you sure? The electoral commission does
:49:00. > :49:03.not have a lot of confidence in our abilities. They have just given
:49:04. > :49:10.their advice on the European Union referendum. There are concerns
:49:11. > :49:15.linked to research that show that some of us do not already know that
:49:16. > :49:19.we are in the European Union. Obviously everyone who watches the
:49:20. > :49:24.Daily Politics knows that. In a moment we will discuss this with the
:49:25. > :49:31.electoral commission. We have been putting the great British public to
:49:32. > :49:41.the test. Do you know if Britain is a member of the EU? I do not. You
:49:42. > :49:49.don't know? Of course. So you do now? Yes. Is Britain a member of the
:49:50. > :50:00.European Union or not? I don't think so. We are. Where are you from?
:50:01. > :50:06.France. Of course it is. Some research shows some people do not
:50:07. > :50:12.know if we are. That is a bit sad. Is Britain a member of the European
:50:13. > :50:22.Union? Yes. You think it seems like quite an obvious question? Yes. I
:50:23. > :50:31.think we are. Some people don't know. They are all thick if they
:50:32. > :50:35.don't know. I think that Liverpudlian accent got straight to
:50:36. > :50:44.the point. We are joined by James Wharton. And Jenny, who thinks the
:50:45. > :50:50.EU Referendum Bill is badly worded. What do you make of these vox pop?
:50:51. > :50:55.That is very entertaining, but our research is rather more rigorous
:50:56. > :51:01.than that. What we did find was the people who did not know we were in
:51:02. > :51:09.the EU. How many? It is not that kind of research. It is a
:51:10. > :51:15.one-to-one, with the ballot paper. We then do in-depth interviews. We
:51:16. > :51:22.did find there were people who did not know we were in the the EU. What
:51:23. > :51:26.percentage? We also found there were people who thought we were and when
:51:27. > :51:32.they looked at the bill, they were confused. I understand that full is
:51:33. > :51:39.not -- I understand that. Can you not tell us which percentage of your
:51:40. > :51:47.sample. Were not in the EU? It is not that type of sample. It has been
:51:48. > :51:54.well tested. What is wrong with his question? The question is, do you
:51:55. > :51:58.think the United Kingdom should be a member of the European Union? The
:51:59. > :52:04.original question, two things are problematic. Did you think it was
:52:05. > :52:09.like an opinion poll and nothing would happen? And people did not
:52:10. > :52:14.have enough knowledge. It needs to give them information that we are in
:52:15. > :52:18.the the EU now. You need to introduce the word leave or the
:52:19. > :52:26.words remain. Let's have a look on the screen. That is your question. I
:52:27. > :52:32.suppose that could be interpreted as whether we should stay in or should
:52:33. > :52:41.we join? You might not think we are in already. The electoral commission
:52:42. > :52:47.questioned changes the verb. That is less equivocal, isn't it? The danger
:52:48. > :52:55.with that, we had remain in the original question and we took it out
:52:56. > :52:59.because we consulted amongst MPs. If you put remain end, it leads people
:53:00. > :53:10.to vote for the status quo and its the result. -- it will affect the
:53:11. > :53:15.result. What is the answer? If you are going to use I guess Renaud
:53:16. > :53:21.question you need to use leave or the remain. This was overwhelmingly
:53:22. > :53:26.the best. It leaves a low level of perception of bias and for that
:53:27. > :53:29.reason we have also asked parliament to consider, we have given them an
:53:30. > :53:37.alternative approach, moving away from this question and asking
:53:38. > :53:45.whether the EU should remain in or leave. What about that? They have
:53:46. > :53:50.not fully tested that question, and so in next week's debate we could
:53:51. > :53:58.adopt that, put it in, and then find out that does not work either.
:53:59. > :54:01.Avenue fully tested it? We have. We have not seen if we could simplify
:54:02. > :54:07.it further and we have not heard from campaigners. I would not
:54:08. > :54:12.imagine that running a campaign to leave remain would be difficult but
:54:13. > :54:20.we have not given that option. Are you minded to stay with this
:54:21. > :54:27.question, even though we have had the commission, seen the vox pops,
:54:28. > :54:33.some people don't even know we are members? I am but it is up to
:54:34. > :54:37.Parliament. I recognise the work the electoral commission have done but
:54:38. > :54:41.the key finding is it is thus -- is it does not lead people down one
:54:42. > :54:47.route or the other. Any aspect of this, that would come at the end of
:54:48. > :54:51.a referendum campaign process when people would be better informed by
:54:52. > :54:56.the public debate. We have run out of time but I think the dialogue
:54:57. > :55:05.will continue full is not -- will continue. The quiz was, European
:55:06. > :55:19.commissioners are standardising across the continent. What will the
:55:20. > :55:22.recommendation be? Six litres? Five litres? One beater or have a bucket
:55:23. > :55:31.of sawdust? Is it five litres? How did you know? I had a guess.
:55:32. > :55:46.Amazing. Is this Big Brother intrusion? Joining us is Peter Bone
:55:47. > :55:49.and Natalie Bennett. I assume that you are a big supporter of this
:55:50. > :55:57.standardisation so that wherever we are, we know how much water we are
:55:58. > :56:03.using. I know the BBC have cut but why have you put me in the toilet?
:56:04. > :56:14.It is absurd that the EU should be wasting time and money. They have
:56:15. > :56:17.been investigating since 2011. They have been testing out different
:56:18. > :56:26.systems. It is the most absurd waste of money. Is this absurd or
:56:27. > :56:30.sensible? We are having typical tabloid reporting. We have a
:56:31. > :56:39.voluntary label manufacturers can choose to use so people know we are
:56:40. > :56:43.getting the best possible quality. This is another example of curly
:56:44. > :56:51.cucumbers and then the bananas. This is a voluntary standard. Just like
:56:52. > :56:57.we have fair trade, Carbon trust. I promise everybody the EU is not
:56:58. > :57:11.going to come marching in. They would like to. It is in -- it is a
:57:12. > :57:19.guideline and it is voluntary. If you go into McDonald's Uriah Knowles
:57:20. > :57:27.there is no water being used at all. -- urinals. That is why the cost is
:57:28. > :57:33.going up. It is a waste of money and another reason why we should come
:57:34. > :57:40.out of stock -- out of the European Union. This is a serious issue. We
:57:41. > :57:48.need to cut down the amount of good value drinking water we are putting
:57:49. > :57:53.in when we renovate pilots, and this is simply saying it is a good
:57:54. > :58:04.guideline. 30% of the water that the British use goes down the toilet. In
:58:05. > :58:12.Finland, it is 14%. Peter Bone, the research only cost ?76,000. That is
:58:13. > :58:18.just like an MP's expenses. That is too low. It is just another example
:58:19. > :58:25.of the complete waste of money in the European Union. People are
:58:26. > :58:30.saying this is unnecessary. The alternative would be every member
:58:31. > :58:36.state do the research and come up with its own standard. We are going
:58:37. > :58:44.to have to leave you there. Enjoy yourself there. Thank you. The one
:58:45. > :58:49.o'clock News is starting on BBC One. I will be back tonight with Michael
:58:50. > :58:52.Portillo, Diane Abbott, Stanley Johnson, Miranda Green, Emily
:58:53. > :59:02.Maitlis and Malcolm Gladwell. Goodbye.