:00:36. > :00:39.Afternoon, folks, welcome to The Daily Politics. Ed Miliband accuses
:00:40. > :01:00.Afternoon, folks, welcome to The access to cash in the country's
:01:01. > :01:04.poorest households. Could climate change make wind power run out of
:01:05. > :01:08.puff? We'll debate whether harsher winters will undermine the case for
:01:09. > :01:12.on-shore wind farms. And it's election day in the Big
:01:13. > :01:14.Apple. Could New Yorkers be about to vote in this left-wing Democrat as
:01:15. > :01:23.their new mayor? All that in the next hour. It is
:01:24. > :01:31.time for a progressive New York and what I call a new New York. All of
:01:32. > :01:34.that coming up in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme
:01:35. > :01:37.today is Marion King, she's the president of Mastercard in the UK.
:01:38. > :01:41.Welcome to The Daily Politics. Let's start with another story, though -
:01:42. > :01:43.the news that the chairman of the schools standards organisation
:01:44. > :01:47.Ofsted thinks that children as young as two should go to school. Baroness
:01:48. > :02:06.Sally Morgan says toddlers should be enrolled in schools to try to
:02:07. > :02:08.Sally Morgan says toddlers should be from the age of three. I think she
:02:09. > :02:12.is talking about children from poorer families, and deprived
:02:13. > :02:17.environments, and therefore, to start in a destructive environment,
:02:18. > :02:21.and meet other children, I think it is very positive. It is also very
:02:22. > :02:25.important for parents, and women who want to go back to work, to have the
:02:26. > :02:31.opportunity to do so. But is that in effect what it is, taking children
:02:32. > :02:34.out of families who often Ofsted feel are not going to provide what
:02:35. > :02:40.the children need, and it is just going to be childcare? I think it is
:02:41. > :02:43.a balance. If they are in a structured environment, where they
:02:44. > :02:49.are learning, a safe and secure environment, think it is a positive
:02:50. > :02:53.thing. In Scandinavia, though, they have long gone on about the benefits
:02:54. > :02:58.of going to school much later, that actually, trying to push children
:02:59. > :03:15.into any form of structured education early does not produce the
:03:16. > :03:18.believe. But I think for the families which are being highlighted
:03:19. > :03:23.here, if it is beneficial for children to start in a form of
:03:24. > :03:28.structured environment, safe and is a, as well as learning, playing and
:03:29. > :03:31.socialising, I think it is positive. What about those children missing
:03:32. > :03:35.out on time at home with either family members or childminders,
:03:36. > :03:41.people looking after them, what they want to one basis? -- safe and
:03:42. > :03:47.secure. It is a balance, isn't it? Very often these days, both parents
:03:48. > :03:51.need to work. And each family has to find its own structure. But if you
:03:52. > :03:55.have nowhere to put your child witches safe answer to, then that
:03:56. > :04:00.becomes a real problem. What did you do with your children at that age?
:04:01. > :04:04.My children started at the age of three at preschool. Now, it is time
:04:05. > :04:27.for our daily quiz. The question for three at preschool. Now, it is time
:04:28. > :04:29.trip for Nigel Farage? At the end of the show, Marion will give us the
:04:30. > :04:37.correct answer. It's the big political battle of the
:04:38. > :04:40.moment - who is going to do more to tackle the cost of living problem.
:04:41. > :04:44.All parties are vying to impress the public with their policies. But
:04:45. > :04:48.which display will win the oohs and aahs from voters? The cost of living
:04:49. > :04:50.has been Labour's focus since they pledged to temporarily freeze energy
:04:51. > :04:54.prices at their conference last month. Earlier today, Ed Miliband
:04:55. > :04:58.continued his attack on energy companies, saying more than half of
:04:59. > :05:05.the annual increase in fuel bills since 2011 has gone directly to
:05:06. > :05:10.support their profits and costs. And he called for water firms to offer
:05:11. > :05:13.special tariffs for the low-paid. On Sunday, Mr Miliband confirmed his
:05:14. > :05:17.commitment to the living wage - the amount an individual needs to earn
:05:18. > :05:36.to cover the basic costs of living - by saying that a future
:05:37. > :05:39.to cover the basic costs of living - tariffs for struggling households.
:05:40. > :05:43.Last month, they also told train companies they won't be able to
:05:44. > :05:50.increase any rail fare by more than inflation plus 3%... ..and promised
:05:51. > :05:55.to roll back "green charges" that add an average of ?112 to energy
:05:56. > :05:59.bills. So, which of the policy pledges will go with a bang? And
:06:00. > :06:02.which ones will die out with a whimper? Well, this is what Ed
:06:03. > :06:08.Miliband had to say a little earlier today...
:06:09. > :06:13.So, we will change the way the energy market works, such that it
:06:14. > :06:17.will provide confidence for investors and a better deal for
:06:18. > :06:20.consumers. And we will mend other markets that are not working in the
:06:21. > :06:25.public interest, opening up competition in banking, they the
:06:26. > :06:28.cost of credit in payday lending, proper regulation of the train
:06:29. > :06:49.companies, ending unjustified That is their version of getting
:06:50. > :06:52.tough. Actually, what they should be doing is saying that these companies
:06:53. > :06:56.should have mandatory social tariffs to help vulnerable customers, and
:06:57. > :06:59.they should be looking at the way that industry is working. That is
:07:00. > :07:03.what a government which is determined to fix broken markets
:07:04. > :07:07.would be doing. Ed Miliband, speaking just over an
:07:08. > :07:09.hour ago. And I've been joined by Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary,
:07:10. > :07:17.Caroline Flint, and the Government's Skills and Enterprise Minister, Matt
:07:18. > :07:21.Hancock. Welcome to you both. Matt Hancock, writing to the water
:07:22. > :07:27.companies to do something about their prices, what is the sanction
:07:28. > :07:31.if they don't? Well, it is very clear that we expect them to do
:07:32. > :07:36.that. But what if they don't? Well, we will look at it, obviously. It is
:07:37. > :07:39.very interesting that Ed Miliband talked about water today, having
:07:40. > :07:59.seen that the Government is taking action.
:08:00. > :08:04.of State, by reducing the costs of charges for more solar energy, which
:08:05. > :08:07.we reduced, and there was a big deal about that, I remember coming on
:08:08. > :08:11.this programme about it, and we said it was the right thing to do to
:08:12. > :08:16.reduced costs. But let's have a look at the action specifically on water
:08:17. > :08:20.companies. The row over energy and fuel bills as to some extent leaned
:08:21. > :08:24.some results, with policies on both sides. With the water companies, if
:08:25. > :08:29.they refuse to introduce either a lower tariff or they will not bring
:08:30. > :08:32.down their prices, you will look at it, but what tools have you got
:08:33. > :08:37.available to actually force them to do something? The tools available
:08:38. > :08:41.through the regulation of the industry. It is a regulated
:08:42. > :08:45.industry. So, we will look at that. In the first instance, what we are
:08:46. > :08:50.saying to the water companies very clearly is that they need to take
:08:51. > :09:07.action. What you would expect is for us to make
:09:08. > :09:09.action. What you would expect is for legislation to make sure that these
:09:10. > :09:16.companies did have social tariffs. In answer to your question, instead
:09:17. > :09:21.of sending it' you say, if you are not going to introduce social
:09:22. > :09:28.tariffs, we will introduce what we have on the statute books. --
:09:29. > :09:31.instead of sending a egging letter. And I think there are lessons to be
:09:32. > :09:37.learned from what has happened in energy. They are virtual monopolies,
:09:38. > :09:41.and therefore, just like energy, a level of regulation which meets the
:09:42. > :09:46.needs of the public... They are regulated, but there is an issue
:09:47. > :09:49.between the profits, and what degree they are helping people. I think it
:09:50. > :09:56.needs strong interrogation and strong regulation. You know what I
:09:57. > :10:00.have said about regulation on the energy side, it is not fit for
:10:01. > :10:00.purpose. So, are you going to intervene on
:10:01. > :10:22.purpose. So, are you going to this is really important? I just
:10:23. > :10:30.want to stick with water for the moment. Labour are proposing they
:10:31. > :10:33.would intervene, so would you? Why not bring into force the legislation
:10:34. > :10:38.which is already there on social tariffs? What we have said is that
:10:39. > :10:42.the water companies need to act and we expect them to do so, and
:10:43. > :10:46.Caroline has then said that, having heard that is going to happen,
:10:47. > :10:50.Labour are saying the same thing. So, we will take action on water.
:10:51. > :10:59.But on energy, we have already taken action, and we are looking to take
:11:00. > :11:02.more. Matthew Hancock has made it clear that they are going to do
:11:03. > :11:07.something, what I am interested to know is, what will you do? With you
:11:08. > :11:11.propose a similar action, as you have with rolling back green taxes,
:11:12. > :11:29.for example? Is there something that you will
:11:30. > :11:31.for example? Is there something that they will force every household to
:11:32. > :11:37.install an electricity style meat, measuring the amount of water used,
:11:38. > :11:42.you support that? I do believe that water metering is part of the
:11:43. > :11:54.answer. And what about you, Caroline Flint? What I would be worried about
:11:55. > :11:57.is just conceding to this demand, before you have a whole picture
:11:58. > :12:01.about what their profits are, and what their investment profile is,
:12:02. > :12:06.and whether they are tackling, for example, in London, Rob is about
:12:07. > :12:09.water leakage. These companies have dominated an area through their
:12:10. > :12:14.virtual monopoly status, and it is easy for them to make these demands
:12:15. > :12:17.without anybody looking into it. Do you agree, Matthew Hancock, Thames
:12:18. > :12:21.Water, for example, they are the only people I can use to supply my
:12:22. > :12:38.water, so that is not a competitive, functioning market,
:12:39. > :12:40.water, so that is not a competitive, instance, there were 14 energy
:12:41. > :12:45.companies, it has now gone down to six, and there are now eight new
:12:46. > :12:48.ones. It turns out Ed Miliband, after saying switching does not
:12:49. > :12:56.count, he has also switched. But what about water? Firstly, the water
:12:57. > :13:04.companies have to take responsible a team, and that is what we are asking
:13:05. > :13:12.them to do. Any ideas on how you would instil competition? I am not
:13:13. > :13:16.going to take a gas on Owen Paterson's next steps. But it seems
:13:17. > :13:18.we have got the Government and the opposition saying they are going to
:13:19. > :13:24.intervene in every market, so are all of these markets broken? Excuse
:13:25. > :13:29.me, Caroline, all of these markets... All of these markets are
:13:30. > :13:31.regulated, but crucially, we have got to make sure that competition
:13:32. > :13:51.exists in them got to make sure that competition
:13:52. > :13:55.sat here and not been able to answer the question. We will come onto
:13:56. > :14:00.energy. In terms of intervening in these markets, is that now going to
:14:01. > :14:05.be the policy of Labour to come in on water, energy, rail, you are
:14:06. > :14:09.going to go in there and say, we are going to break it up and fix it? And
:14:10. > :14:13.it comes to the private sector, if the market was working properly, and
:14:14. > :14:16.competition was working well, you would expect to see a corresponding
:14:17. > :14:20.customer service base which reflected that. People would feel
:14:21. > :14:23.like, they are hungry for our business, working for our business,
:14:24. > :14:29.they treat us well. Truth is that in energy, and it would seem in water,
:14:30. > :14:33.customers have not been well served. In the energy market, which is
:14:34. > :14:36.different from water, clearly the market has broken down, and we have
:14:37. > :14:41.six companies which dominate 98% of it. It is all very well Matthew
:14:42. > :14:58.talking about green levies, the truth is,
:14:59. > :15:01.talking about green levies, the costs and VAT, so half of that has
:15:02. > :15:05.gone straight back to the companies, for them to spend on their profits
:15:06. > :15:09.and operating costs. In that situation, it is fair to ask them,
:15:10. > :15:11.are you really efficient as a company and are you really paying
:15:12. > :15:15.attention to your customer base before your profits? I believe they
:15:16. > :15:19.aren't. But the difference, though, is that the Government is proposing
:15:20. > :15:30.cutting people's bills, not just freezing prices, they are going to
:15:31. > :15:34.cut the bill. We are very clear. We think they should freeze the bills.
:15:35. > :15:39.But the big issue is something the government has not dealt with. Do we
:15:40. > :15:44.revolt at the -- reform the market? There is no incentive to put
:15:45. > :15:50.downward pressure on bills. We are saying that all electricity should
:15:51. > :15:51.be sold in an open pool, in an open exchange. My understand the policy.
:15:52. > :16:10.We have nothing exchange. My understand the policy.
:16:11. > :16:14.you think will work? It is not an either/or. We are hearing that there
:16:15. > :16:20.is a need for intervention and regulation. This is not a
:16:21. > :16:24.competitive market and so the intervention needs to be different.
:16:25. > :16:29.Assault bills need to be lower and controlled. -- household bills. It
:16:30. > :16:33.is a balance of stronger regulation, and making sure that
:16:34. > :16:39.revelation is enforced. And that it is appropriate for the market. I
:16:40. > :16:44.would agree but everything we ask from bill payers, we should ensure
:16:45. > :16:47.we get value for money. The key thing to ensure is that we do what
:16:48. > :16:54.we can on competition to bring profits down and to bring costs
:16:55. > :16:59.down. Caroline said earlier that only ?112 is added. Only ?112 is
:17:00. > :17:21.added? ?112 a only ?112 is added. Only ?112 is
:17:22. > :17:26.think that is fair... Two of course, we need to look at profits in
:17:27. > :17:36.competition. There are eight new market entrants. Their tiny! One of
:17:37. > :17:42.those two has said that if we get a short-term price freeze, as proposed
:17:43. > :17:44.by Labour, they may have to leave the market and so we will end up
:17:45. > :17:48.with prices higher in the long-term. But more importantly,
:17:49. > :17:51.there are things that we can do directly, things that we have done
:17:52. > :17:57.to bring down the and things that we can do. Labour are against them.
:17:58. > :18:00.David Cameron accused Ed Miliband of living on a Marxist planet with
:18:01. > :18:04.these ideas of intervention. Is he injuring that way? You have said it
:18:05. > :18:10.is time for more intervention and regulation, bringing down profits.
:18:11. > :18:29.It sounds like you are marching in the same direction?
:18:30. > :18:31.It sounds like you are marching in and do I want. Would you nationalise
:18:32. > :18:36.the utilities? You are talking about it with the railways. You did hint
:18:37. > :18:41.at that. It is a different matter for the railways. It is a completely
:18:42. > :18:45.different discussion. The truth is that in terms of nationalising, it
:18:46. > :18:48.would cost billions of pounds. I think we need a more effective
:18:49. > :18:54.market and it needs to be reformed in a way that opens it up. And the
:18:55. > :18:58.truth is that three of the small players have said they will live
:18:59. > :19:04.with the freeze and support it. One of them has said that it may with
:19:05. > :19:08.them out of business. The small businesses cannot get a foothold
:19:09. > :19:14.because it is dominated by the big six to generate energy and sell it
:19:15. > :19:15.to themselves and onto us. That is why we are making it easier to
:19:16. > :19:41.switch. Switching will not cut it. elegant city. That is how you do it.
:19:42. > :19:44.Why are so many people saying that your policy is economically bonkers,
:19:45. > :19:51.that it will not work and the lights could go out? Why, if it is such a
:19:52. > :19:57.fabulous idea, is it knocked by so many people? There were a few voices
:19:58. > :20:00.after Ed Miliband's speech you said that the lights would go out. I've
:20:01. > :20:05.spoken to the chief executives of the big six and many of them have
:20:06. > :20:08.sent that that is not the case. National Grid said it would not be
:20:09. > :20:12.the case and security is important. We need something to address the
:20:13. > :20:19.overcharging that has been going on as wholesale prices have come down.
:20:20. > :20:25.We need to address the structural reform of the market. Switching is
:20:26. > :20:29.fine but it will not do it. You have made a point. But the boss of
:20:30. > :20:31.Centrica has said he will not take his bonus. Because of anger and a
:20:32. > :20:49.lack of trust. his bonus. Because of anger and a
:20:50. > :20:55.decision he has made and I think we can see the direction of travel. I
:20:56. > :21:00.think they should all look at that. Would you ban bonuses? I think they
:21:01. > :21:05.have to be fit for purpose and they do not think they have been
:21:06. > :21:08.recently. Thank you both very much. This morning, MPs have been
:21:09. > :21:10.questioning the bosses of payday lenders like Wonga, which charge
:21:11. > :21:15.high interest rate for short-term loans. Politicians have criticised
:21:16. > :21:22.the companies for charging too much and exploiting Britain's tourist
:21:23. > :21:26.households. -- progressed. It shone a spotlight on the issue Bob Hope
:21:27. > :21:29.were people manage their money. What do you do to reach more than 1
:21:30. > :21:33.million people who do not have a bank account? And the many more who
:21:34. > :21:38.do not have a fully fledged current-account.
:21:39. > :21:42.Money makes the world go round but what if your bank does not trust you
:21:43. > :21:42.with a current account. Most High Street
:21:43. > :22:05.with a current account. Most High things like utility bill discounts,
:22:06. > :22:09.by paying through direct debit. This Company wants to solve the problem.
:22:10. > :22:14.It is a credit union which means that it is owned by members, who
:22:15. > :22:18.effectively lend to each other. And this month, they will become the
:22:19. > :22:23.first organisation of its kind to offer a fully fledged
:22:24. > :22:26.current-account. In many ways, it is expensive to be pure. Part of the
:22:27. > :22:31.benefit of working with MasterCard on this service is that we will
:22:32. > :22:36.suddenly be finding that people can actually access markets that
:22:37. > :22:39.currently are barred to them. They also want to steer people away from
:22:40. > :22:46.illegal but expensive sources of cash, like the payday lenders that
:22:47. > :22:51.line the High Street. One particular man had had a series of loans from a
:22:52. > :23:10.doorstep lender and he had paid over ?3000 in
:23:11. > :23:16.doorstep lender and he had paid over the figures IK Kim and burst into
:23:17. > :23:21.tears. -- the figures I gave him. Some of those companies have been in
:23:22. > :23:25.front of a Select Committee today. They say most of the customers are
:23:26. > :23:28.happy and they have been misrepresented in the debate about
:23:29. > :23:37.how pure people manage their money. -- for people. But that is a debate
:23:38. > :23:40.that will continue. When universal credit is introduced, many claimants
:23:41. > :23:43.will get the money in lump sums rather than fortnightly, the idea
:23:44. > :23:48.being that it is more like being paid a wage. That has some asking,
:23:49. > :23:51.how will people cope with something like a salary if they are not used
:23:52. > :23:56.to something as basic as a bank account?
:23:57. > :23:58.We asked the government for an interview with the consumer affairs
:23:59. > :24:02.minister, Jo Swinson, but she was not available. We are joined by her
:24:03. > :24:20.opposite number, Stella Creasy. Welcome to the show.
:24:21. > :24:24.opposite number, Stella Creasy. is ?5.3 million -- 5.3 people -- 5.3
:24:25. > :24:27.million people underserved. Many choose not to have a bank account
:24:28. > :24:32.but there are some on a boy people who find it difficult to get a bank
:24:33. > :24:39.account. Why does it matter so much that people have a bank account? It
:24:40. > :24:42.is about social inclusion. If you do not have a bank account, you cannot
:24:43. > :24:46.pay all chronically or buy the internet. The gentleman there
:24:47. > :24:50.highlighted that you cannot use a direct debit or electronic teens are
:24:51. > :24:53.paying your bills. Some people cannot get back accounts the cos
:24:54. > :24:59.they have a bad financial record. -- bank accounts. Who are the people
:25:00. > :25:04.who would elect not to have one? Because they preferred to use cash.
:25:05. > :25:09.It might be trust or a question of managing their money. We're seeing
:25:10. > :25:12.people increasingly drawing money from an ATM to spend before they go
:25:13. > :25:35.in a supermarket. It is a way from an ATM to spend before they go
:25:36. > :25:41.brings with it a debit card. Providing a card that people can
:25:42. > :25:44.join the economy with. I was also talking about prepaid cards, which
:25:45. > :25:50.are not attached to a current account, that allow you to spend
:25:51. > :25:54.securely, but you cannot overspend. Do you think that people need a bank
:25:55. > :25:58.account? Should there be an aim of political parties, to make sure
:25:59. > :26:01.people are financially included? It was the last Labour government that
:26:02. > :26:07.set up the financial inclusion task force. A number of these issues are
:26:08. > :26:12.absolutely right. The other point is that I see people in my community
:26:13. > :26:15.who are paying higher energy rates because they're using prepayment
:26:16. > :26:21.meters. We are still seeing a poverty premium on these issues.
:26:22. > :26:24.Interestingly, some of these payday lenders will make a virtue out of
:26:25. > :26:41.the fact that they go to people with back accounts.
:26:42. > :26:44.the fact that they go to people with the past, in many occasions. How can
:26:45. > :26:50.you persuade institutions to take on these people when they have not
:26:51. > :26:56.shown any financial responsibility? That is not what the research shows.
:26:57. > :26:59.The University of Birmingham queries these figures, saying it is under a
:27:00. > :27:05.million who do not have a bank account, or maybe 2 million
:27:06. > :27:08.individual accounts. That is too many. There are a number of
:27:09. > :27:11.different issues. There is a cultural issue about people choosing
:27:12. > :27:15.not to have them and there are people with bad credit histories.
:27:16. > :27:18.But there is a question about the motivation of the banks and how they
:27:19. > :27:21.are assessing what bad credit history is. One of my concerns is
:27:22. > :27:24.that we are increasingly seeing segregation in the credit market
:27:25. > :27:28.where for some people the only option is payday lending or high
:27:29. > :27:34.cost credit will stop as they take that out, banks will judge them as
:27:35. > :27:52.an fit to lend. That is a failure of banks
:27:53. > :28:00.an fit to lend. That is a failure of low incomes? Financial inclusion is
:28:01. > :28:03.critical. Having we have seen the consequences of responsible lending
:28:04. > :28:06.not happening. -- I think we have seen. Irresponsible lending has led
:28:07. > :28:09.to the banking crisis domestic league and in the bigger market. We
:28:10. > :28:15.need responsible lending where people have a bad credit rating,
:28:16. > :28:19.there are incidents that can be offered to those consumers, such as
:28:20. > :28:24.the prepaid capability which does not require a current-account. If
:28:25. > :28:28.you use that had responsibly, ie you are not for ever busting the limit,
:28:29. > :28:31.that gives you a credit rating to enable you to get a basic
:28:32. > :28:37.current-account. -- if you use that card responsibly. We're seeing an
:28:38. > :28:41.increasing of people going into an overdrafts to pay off a poll --
:28:42. > :29:02.payday loan full stop that is a win-win for the banks and the payday
:29:03. > :29:07.payday loan full stop that is a Credit unions charge 2% a month.
:29:08. > :29:14.This is low-cost lending. Do you accept that the reason people turn
:29:15. > :29:20.to payday lenders in order to get a short term loan is a failure of the
:29:21. > :29:24.banks? The walls bear market for short-term lending. Whether that is
:29:25. > :29:28.overdraft or a payday lender, there is a market and a requirement. We
:29:29. > :29:32.need to make sure that the revelation is proportionate. --
:29:33. > :29:36.there will always be a market. We need to make sure that the borrowers
:29:37. > :29:42.know what they are getting into. We need to make sure that these
:29:43. > :29:47.inappropriate actions do not take place. There is a need because
:29:48. > :29:52.otherwise the companies would not be doing this well. On average, they
:29:53. > :30:13.say it is people taking around ?175 out for around 16 days. You
:30:14. > :30:17.say it is people taking around ?175 rising higher than wages. It is
:30:18. > :30:22.different to an emergency. In this industry, the incentives about --
:30:23. > :30:27.are about putting people into debt. They want to create a situation
:30:28. > :30:31.where people are shorter and shorter and that is not a fear market for
:30:32. > :30:34.consumers. It is right that we step in and look at what we can learn
:30:35. > :30:40.from other countries to change the incentives and the practice in this
:30:41. > :30:44.industry. What we have seen today is irresponsible lending. Without those
:30:45. > :30:50.caps, you will not get the changes. Things like caps and freezers do not
:30:51. > :30:53.work. They are blunt instruments. It is about the type of loan and the
:30:54. > :30:56.length of loan. It is about the interest rate. It is about the
:30:57. > :31:03.practices in selling and recovery, all of those things. Just putting on
:31:04. > :31:24.a freeze causes unintended consequences.
:31:25. > :31:28.a freeze causes unintended Final word? We are not a lender. We
:31:29. > :31:36.allow the transaction to happen. If you cap and suppressed too much, you
:31:37. > :31:40.push the industry into the corners. There is evidence from other
:31:41. > :31:44.companies -- countries that the opposite is true. Ed Miliband made a
:31:45. > :31:49.speech about the cost of living today. At the end, he was asked
:31:50. > :31:59.about the allegations of election rigging in the Falkirk consistency.
:32:00. > :32:01.James Landale was watching. He was bombarded with questions about
:32:02. > :32:05.precisely what has happened in Falkirk. Over the last few days,
:32:06. > :32:10.some new evidence has been published by the Sunday Times newspaper, new
:32:11. > :32:11.e-mails, and doubts cast over some of the original evidence given by
:32:12. > :32:32.Labour members. of the original evidence given by
:32:33. > :32:37.Labour's plan pain to keep Scotland as part of the United Kingdom. --
:32:38. > :32:42.Labour's campaign. They are all calling for a new inquiry, so why
:32:43. > :32:45.wouldn't Mr Miliband give one case he was asked about this and he said
:32:46. > :32:54.he did not believe there was enough new evidence. He thinks they are not
:32:55. > :32:58.changing their evidence at the moment. He also said that the Labour
:32:59. > :33:01.Party had acted to take control over the selection, and stated that the
:33:02. > :33:07.party was reforming its relationship with the unions. But the questioning
:33:08. > :33:11.got quite personal. He was asked how much he fears on a scale of one to
:33:12. > :33:14.ten people like Len McCluskey, the general secretary of the Unite
:33:15. > :33:19.union, and also the Labour MP John Watson, who is very much involved in
:33:20. > :33:21.Scottish politics. So, I think we are in an interesting position for
:33:22. > :33:41.Ed Miliband. What began as a story are in an interesting position for
:33:42. > :33:49.getting into quite risky territory, if he still refuses to conduct a new
:33:50. > :33:51.inquiry. So, he is clearly under pressure, because what will happen
:33:52. > :33:59.in terms of this, is that people will just look at the relationship
:34:00. > :34:05.between Labour and the Unite union, and also between Ed Miliband and Len
:34:06. > :34:10.McCluskey, and that, as you say, over time, could be very bad news
:34:11. > :34:14.for him. Yes, and particularly, because the Conservatives will not
:34:15. > :34:18.in the House of Commons just now, George Osborne, in Treasury
:34:19. > :34:22.questions, raised the question about the role of the Unite union in the
:34:23. > :34:25.Grangemouth strike, and he very specifically immediately said, this
:34:26. > :34:31.is all about Labour's relationship with the Unite union, and their
:34:32. > :34:33.failure to control the union. He was slapped down by the Speaker, saying,
:34:34. > :34:53.this is supposed to be slapped down by the Speaker, saying,
:34:54. > :34:56.farms? If some scientists are to be believed, investors should be read
:34:57. > :35:06.thinking attitudes on energy Wallasey. Tim Iredale reports. --
:35:07. > :35:09.energy policy. Last week's stormy seas were a stark reminder of the
:35:10. > :35:14.disruption that can be caused by extreme weather conditions. But
:35:15. > :35:16.according to one scientist, we should be preparing for a different
:35:17. > :35:21.kind of climate challenge in the years to come. It is claimed that
:35:22. > :35:30.harsh winters, like the big freeze of 1963, could become more common
:35:31. > :35:35.due to a decline in solar activity. We may be needing more snowploughs,
:35:36. > :35:41.we might need more power stations to meet the energy demands. All of
:35:42. > :36:02.these things become more sensible, more economic to do,
:36:03. > :36:04.these things become more sensible, Siberian winters will see a
:36:05. > :36:12.reduction in milder air coming in off the Atlantic. In other words,
:36:13. > :36:17.less wind. Melvin Grosvenor led a campaign to successfully block a
:36:18. > :36:22.development of eight turbines on the edge of the Lincolnshire Wolds. He
:36:23. > :36:26.now supports other communities where there is significant opposition to
:36:27. > :36:31.new wind farms. If the wind is not going, we know full well, as from
:36:32. > :36:35.2010-11, where we had blocking highs, there was little wind and
:36:36. > :36:39.virtually no energy produced. If we are going down this road, we are
:36:40. > :36:44.going to have no energy, blackouts, lights out, and people will still
:36:45. > :36:47.suffer all of the impacts on landscape and residential amenity
:36:48. > :36:51.and higher energy bills. Is this about science, or is it about you
:36:52. > :36:54.saying you do not want these things on your landscape? It is a mixed
:36:55. > :37:12.issue. on your landscape? It is a mixed
:37:13. > :37:19.do basically the wrong thing, then obviously, there is a huge problem.
:37:20. > :37:25.So, with differing opinion on how to manage our future energy needs, I
:37:26. > :37:28.sought advice from a familiar face. John, if you were a government
:37:29. > :37:33.minister, how would you plan for our future energy needs? I would
:37:34. > :37:37.probably set back and think, what is it all about? We have been getting
:37:38. > :37:40.conflicting evidence for 20 years. There will always be wind in this
:37:41. > :37:46.country, we are an island, we are surrounded by water. I think it is a
:37:47. > :37:52.wonderful thing, I am an advocate of renewable energy, because the other
:37:53. > :37:58.stuff is going to run out. It may not be nuclear, it may be nuclear,
:37:59. > :38:00.but certainly these other alternatives have a place in
:38:01. > :38:03.society. Whatever conjunction there is, in whatever new science comes
:38:04. > :38:23.out, we is, in whatever new science comes
:38:24. > :38:26.is our household Energy Bill. We have been joined now by Chris
:38:27. > :38:30.Heaton-Harris, a Conservative MP and strong opponent of wind farms, as
:38:31. > :38:34.well as the Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Chris
:38:35. > :38:38.Heaton-Harris, what is the evidence that the UK is getting less wind? I
:38:39. > :38:43.do not think there is any. I guessed what that is saying is that when we
:38:44. > :38:48.most need power, in the winters when we have got huge anticyclones above
:38:49. > :38:53.us and there is no wind being produced, wind does not do anything
:38:54. > :38:56.for our energy supply or security. But we knew that already, wind is
:38:57. > :39:04.unpredictable, it is not a consistent thing. Absolutely, which
:39:05. > :39:09.is why it is a complete problem for those on the National Grid, because
:39:10. > :39:14.you do not know when it is coming, so you have always got to have a
:39:15. > :39:32.100% back-up of gas turbines behind it,
:39:33. > :39:34.100% back-up of gas turbines behind farms in Texas. In the US, 43% of
:39:35. > :39:37.the new electricity generation which was installed last year is green. We
:39:38. > :39:43.have got China powering ahead with it. We have got Germany, which on
:39:44. > :39:47.one day in October they were getting 59% of their energy from solar and
:39:48. > :39:51.wind. We are being left behind while the rest of the world is powering
:39:52. > :39:55.ahead. But we are talking about this country, will it have enough wind to
:39:56. > :39:58.actually supply the level of renewable energy which you are
:39:59. > :40:02.talking about, in comparison to places like Germany, who are
:40:03. > :40:07.actually going back to a lot of fossil fuels? As was highlighted, we
:40:08. > :40:11.are a maritime island, the wind is not going to suddenly stop blowing.
:40:12. > :40:15.This is only one study, it is very speculative. If we go around
:40:16. > :40:20.clutching at straws like this we will not get the investment we need
:40:21. > :40:21.in renewable energy. Is it just clutching at straws, is it just
:40:22. > :40:48.using this example, that we clutching at straws, is it just
:40:49. > :40:51.they are all wrong? You are producing very expensive energy,
:40:52. > :40:55.putting people into fuel poverty, which does not do anything for
:40:56. > :41:00.security of supply. Is it expensive, because once it is up and running,
:41:01. > :41:05.it is cheaper, isn't it? Unio exactly what the fuel will cost,
:41:06. > :41:09.which is nothing. Unfortunately, you need gas burning in the background
:41:10. > :41:14.100% of the time. Are you a fan of wind turbines? One is just about to
:41:15. > :41:20.go up in the village where I live, and I did not impose it -- oppose
:41:21. > :41:25.it, because I am in favour of planning for the future. I do not
:41:26. > :41:29.know which debate is right and wrong, but I think we have to invest
:41:30. > :41:34.to try and improve things, we have to be careful of NIMBY, which
:41:35. > :41:52.happens, of course, but we need to make sure
:41:53. > :41:55.happens, of course, but we need to saying that actually, you do not
:41:56. > :41:58.think it is a viable energy source and that is medically, it is ruining
:41:59. > :42:03.the countryside, or is it both? It is both. I do not see how you can be
:42:04. > :42:15.green and let the physical landscape be ruined. We have to acknowledge
:42:16. > :42:20.that all forms of energy generation have this government is not spending
:42:21. > :42:23.a single penny on insulating our low standard homes, which of course
:42:24. > :42:31.would tackle fuel poverty, create jobs and cut carbon emissions. That
:42:32. > :42:35.is part of the green taxes which the Government is trying to roll back.
:42:36. > :42:41.According to Caroline Flint it is only ?112. Actually about a third of
:42:42. > :42:43.that is a social levy for those who cannot afford their bills, and about
:42:44. > :43:08.another third... I am cannot afford their bills, and about
:43:09. > :43:13.e-industrialisation. We could develop offshore wind using the
:43:14. > :43:19.engineers and technicians who are coming out of the offshore oil
:43:20. > :43:23.industry. At the moment, when people's cost of living is high,
:43:24. > :43:27.they are more worried, and so are the political parties, about doing
:43:28. > :43:32.something about the economy than they are at the moment about climate
:43:33. > :43:37.change, and is that not legitimate? We do not have to have a new law
:43:38. > :43:42.here. If we go for the gas option, which you are so keen on,
:43:43. > :43:48.international studies suggests the price of gas will rise by 14% by
:43:49. > :43:53.2020. It has collapsed in the United States. The States is an isolated
:43:54. > :44:13.market, they have import States. The States is an isolated
:44:14. > :44:17.you just not believe the claims which are made that actually, in the
:44:18. > :44:21.future, if you invest in green, clean energy, the bills will come
:44:22. > :44:26.down at a later stage? No, I do not believe that. I think we can have a
:44:27. > :44:28.political debate about how much we want to pay for energy. At the
:44:29. > :44:32.moment people are saying energy costs too much, and if the
:44:33. > :44:36.Government is adding extra costs, which is what the green taxes do,
:44:37. > :44:40.then we have got to be honest with people. Are you in favour of rolling
:44:41. > :44:45.back the green levies on nuclear energy bills and putting it onto
:44:46. > :44:49.general taxation? No, I think we have to get the balance right. Blunt
:44:50. > :44:55.instruments do not work, they create problems elsewhere. Thank you both
:44:56. > :44:58.very much. Now, we may be 18 months away from the next general election,
:44:59. > :45:02.but it already feels as if the parties are in campaign mode. The
:45:03. > :45:04.number of people voting in 2010 was actually up, compared to the 2005
:45:05. > :45:26.election. actually up, compared to the 2005
:45:27. > :45:32.Lucy Powell is Julia elected for the Manchester Central constituency. --
:45:33. > :45:36.Julia elected. One year ago, I was elected as the Labour MP for
:45:37. > :45:40.Manchester Central. I was disappointed that the voter turnout
:45:41. > :45:43.was just 18%, the lowest in a by-election since the Second World
:45:44. > :45:48.War. It is an embarrassing record to hold and one that I'd decided to do
:45:49. > :45:51.something about. As part of Labour's peoples politics enquiry, a
:45:52. > :45:57.review into how we can engage people in politics, I have been around the
:45:58. > :46:05.constituency talking to young voters or nonvoters, in most cases. I've
:46:06. > :46:08.tried to work out why they do not vote. At first, they were sceptical
:46:09. > :46:13.about hearing from me but it quickly unfolded that they were highly
:46:14. > :46:15.political and involved. They were interested and knowledgeable about
:46:16. > :46:33.what was happening in their communities as well
:46:34. > :46:38.what was happening in their ever voted? No. Never. Why? To be
:46:39. > :46:43.honest, I do not trust the politicians. They are all out for
:46:44. > :46:49.themselves. Do you think I look like a politician? What would it
:46:50. > :46:55.politician look like? Old and miserable. As soon as someone hears
:46:56. > :47:00.about politics or anything like that, they automatically think it is
:47:01. > :47:07.boring and they do not want to know. It is depressing to hear. In order
:47:08. > :47:11.to connect with these people, we need to diversify our stock of
:47:12. > :47:14.politicians. We need to help create a political culture that allows for
:47:15. > :47:20.a difference, for greater freedom to be outspoken and live normal lives.
:47:21. > :47:25.This is not just to challenge for the political parties but for those
:47:26. > :47:44.who report on politics. Do not think compulsory voting
:47:45. > :47:45.who report on politics. Do not think could be coveted and create a very
:47:46. > :47:50.different collection. Lucy Powell joins us. A cynic would say that the
:47:51. > :47:54.reason the turnout was so low is because it is a safely proceed.
:47:55. > :47:59.Labour voters know they are going to get a Labour MP so it is not worth
:48:00. > :48:02.going out to vote. If you drill down the figures, the places with the
:48:03. > :48:09.lowest turnout were the student areas, the areas with younger
:48:10. > :48:13.population. That is why I have focused my conversation with the
:48:14. > :48:17.youth vote. Do you accept that is the problem for safe seats two I
:48:18. > :48:22.know there are fewer these days than 20 years ago, but people do not
:48:23. > :48:26.bother, because they just think it is a fake Compleat. You're going to
:48:27. > :48:54.get a Conservative or Labour person. And that is the reality.
:48:55. > :49:00.get a Conservative or Labour person. high Labour vote, relatively, in my
:49:01. > :49:04.collection. But there is a larger malaise about why people do not want
:49:05. > :49:12.to getting gauged in politics. And I think that needs bigger anthers. And
:49:13. > :49:14.what are those answers? I get an anecdotal sense that people are
:49:15. > :49:18.interested in political issues but not interested in party politics
:49:19. > :49:24.cause they do not think they speak for them. I think getting people
:49:25. > :49:28.engaged at a younger age is one of those solutions. I would like to see
:49:29. > :49:33.the voting age brought down to 16. Secondly, I think we need to look at
:49:34. > :49:37.the stock of politicians because there is a feeling that we are all
:49:38. > :49:39.the same. People think that politicians are basically
:49:40. > :49:44.middle-aged, middle-class men and we need to do something about that.
:49:45. > :50:04.Thirdly, I think we need a boulder politics because what I've
:50:05. > :50:10.people are hungry for. What do you think about lowering the age for
:50:11. > :50:14.voting? I do not support it because I have teenage sons. They are 18 and
:50:15. > :50:20.21. At 16, in my opinion, they do not understand this. There is a lack
:50:21. > :50:23.of education and a malaise. More debating in schools, more focus on
:50:24. > :50:28.politics and what it means and how it works, more encouraging of having
:50:29. > :50:32.an opinion and validating that with data. The risk of 16-year-olds is
:50:33. > :50:38.that they will follow their parents. It has to be an independent view. In
:50:39. > :50:42.saying that, I have two of voting age and the book that university.
:50:43. > :50:46.How do they vote? Surely in an age where you can get a mortgage online
:50:47. > :50:50.and a tax return online, why can we not vote online? Why do we have to
:50:51. > :50:56.get out early or get home early to be able to vote. If it was easier to
:50:57. > :51:13.vote for those who have access to the internet, and in
:51:14. > :51:15.vote for those who have access to to that? I would definitely like
:51:16. > :51:19.online voting. I think we should make it easier. Back to the points
:51:20. > :51:23.of voting at 16. Critically, if you can pay taxes, and you can at the
:51:24. > :51:30.age of 16, then you should have a voice in how the taxes are spent.
:51:31. > :51:33.Lowering the voting age, will it make more people vote? I'm not sure
:51:34. > :51:38.that it would automatically encouraging gauge meant. But there
:51:39. > :51:42.are loads of people 40 and 50 who do not vote. But you say it is a
:51:43. > :51:46.particular problem among younger people. It has been argued that the
:51:47. > :51:53.policies that have been undertaken by the government have concentrated
:51:54. > :51:57.or focused on pensioners much of the time. There are arguments against
:51:58. > :52:00.it. Has that had an impact? Definitely. We would not have seen
:52:01. > :52:03.the government scrapping the educational maintenance allowance,
:52:04. > :52:05.troubling tuition fees and making it harder for young people to get on
:52:06. > :52:25.the property ladder. harder for young people to get on
:52:26. > :52:30.brunt. I think nobody is doing terribly well out of austerity. My
:52:31. > :52:40.mother, I see her friends struggling. Relatively, I mean. I
:52:41. > :52:44.think young people need to take this possibility but my sense is that 16
:52:45. > :52:47.is too young. We are encouraging children to stay at school until 18
:52:48. > :52:51.and take responsible at it for the decisions they are making. The vote
:52:52. > :52:54.is a big decision. I am not supportive of lowering it because
:52:55. > :53:04.they do not think that will break this malaise. What would engage your
:53:05. > :53:09.children, do you think you might make it cool, interesting, online.
:53:10. > :53:12.Get it on social media. But politicians are doing that. It is
:53:13. > :53:14.relatively new but they are starting to engage in the social media
:53:15. > :53:33.revolution. to engage in the social media
:53:34. > :53:36.see all additions in their community, they want to see me
:53:37. > :53:42.present in the school and in the community. They do not want to be
:53:43. > :53:48.typecast. The 16-year-old is that really want to vote, and not all of
:53:49. > :53:54.them do, they should be allowed to. -- 16-year-olds. What about
:53:55. > :54:00.compulsory voting? I am in two minds about that. I'm not sure about it.
:54:01. > :54:03.Why not? If it is such a problem and you want to lower the voting age,
:54:04. > :54:08.why not lower it and force them to vote? Maybe. I would like to see the
:54:09. > :54:13.evidence. It works in some places but I'm not sure that it would work
:54:14. > :54:20.in this country. It is something I would be happy to look at. You? I
:54:21. > :54:23.think I would not support it. We should encourage voting and
:54:24. > :54:45.encourage responsibility. should encourage voting and
:54:46. > :54:49.as the difficult consequences. You said if you made it cool and engaged
:54:50. > :55:01.with young people, but generally with voters, do boulder policies
:55:02. > :55:04.work? Which policy is right is left to individual choices, and would you
:55:05. > :55:10.like to see clearer policies from the parties? I would. In the areas
:55:11. > :55:17.that affect the household. In areas that affect childcare and health
:55:18. > :55:20.care. We have spoken about utility bills and all the things that affect
:55:21. > :55:27.households. Those are the things that matter. All these incisions,
:55:28. > :55:33.well thought through, and debates do not help the trust of the consumer
:55:34. > :55:54.much. -- older decisions. Who do you believe with this information?
:55:55. > :55:59.much. -- older decisions. Who do you years, the city has been run by a
:56:00. > :56:03.Republican or independent mayor. But if opinion polls are to be believed,
:56:04. > :56:09.this time tomorrow, Bill de Blasio, a Democrat, would be in charge. Here
:56:10. > :56:14.is in one of his campaign videos. Want to tell about Bill de Blasio.
:56:15. > :56:20.He is the only Democrat with the enthusiasm to break from tradition.
:56:21. > :56:23.He will fund early childhood and after-school programmes. He has the
:56:24. > :56:26.boldest plan to build affordable housing and he is the only one who
:56:27. > :56:31.will end a stop-and-frisk Europe that unfairly targets people of
:56:32. > :56:34.colour. He will be a mere four every New Yorker, wherever they live or
:56:35. > :56:45.what they look like. I would say that even if he wasn't my dad. --
:56:46. > :57:04.mayor. Is it going to be an easy victory for Bill de Blasio?
:57:05. > :57:07.mayor. Is it going to be an easy by Mike Bloomberg and New York City
:57:08. > :57:13.has always had progressive leanings. I think we are seeing the city
:57:14. > :57:19.coming back to its political routes. What has he done that has gripped
:57:20. > :57:24.the city? Is fighting against a lot of the excesses of a conservative
:57:25. > :57:28.era. He has been campaigning about popular programmes, like
:57:29. > :57:35.stop-and-frisk, stop and search, Civil Liberties issues. But Rudy
:57:36. > :57:38.Giuliani did well with his zero tolerance on crime and many say that
:57:39. > :57:42.that is what transformed New York. Is this a push against what was
:57:43. > :57:47.deemed to be so successful under a Republican mayor? This is a step
:57:48. > :57:54.forward for what can and will be achieved under a Democratic may. --
:57:55. > :57:56.mayor. He is a left-wing politician, a traditional New York
:57:57. > :58:15.Democrat. And he politician, a traditional New York
:58:16. > :58:21.chartered schools should compete on a level playing field. He's trying
:58:22. > :58:24.to end Brent subsidies for their positions. Thank you for coming in.
:58:25. > :58:32.So might be celebrating tomorrow? We might be. Just time to resolve our
:58:33. > :58:36.quiz. The question was, what have the Conservatives spent ?500 million
:58:37. > :58:45.on as they gear up to the election. What was the answer, Marion? I am
:58:46. > :58:52.reading at! You're supposed to know the answer, not read it! How very
:58:53. > :58:56.honest! Hiring Lynton Crosby was the answer. We will be back tomorrow at
:58:57. > :59:00.1130 am with Prime Minister's Questions questions. -- Prime
:59:01. > :59:03.Ministers questions.