:00:00. > :00:38.Afternoon, folks - welcome to The Daily Politics. MPs debate a
:00:39. > :00:41.Conservative plan for a referendum on Europe in 2017, but Tory
:00:42. > :00:43.backbencher Adam Afriyie demands a vote next year. We'll have the
:00:44. > :00:51.latest. MPs criticise the Home Office over
:00:52. > :00:56.illegal immigration, accusing the department of a "poor record". The
:00:57. > :00:59.Government says it is getting tough on the issue.
:01:00. > :01:05.Should pubs in England be allowed to open late during next year's World
:01:06. > :01:10.Cup? We'll hear why one MP wants a free-for-all during the footie.
:01:11. > :01:14.And in the latest of our series on political thinkers, the comedian
:01:15. > :01:15.Alistair McGowan explains why EF Schumacher is his favourite
:01:16. > :01:53.philosopher. People who writes for the Glasgow Herald.
:01:54. > :01:59.Welcome to The Daily Politics. First, I want to bring you some sad
:02:00. > :02:03.news, the BBC's former BBC political editor, John Cook has died at the
:02:04. > :02:12.age of 85, after an illness. Let's start with the news that only
:02:13. > :02:16.1.5% of reports alleging illegal immigration result in a person being
:02:17. > :02:19.removed from the UK. That's the headline finding of a report from
:02:20. > :02:27.Parliament's Home Affairs Committee. Its chairman, the Labour MP Keith
:02:28. > :02:50.Vaz, is not a happy chap. This is a very poor record. One -- what
:02:51. > :02:54.Vaz, is not a happy chap. This is a Odone, there is a backlog of more
:02:55. > :02:58.than 400,000 immigration asylum cases and that is never going to be
:02:59. > :03:03.cleared, is it? I cannot imagine it will. But I will tell you what is
:03:04. > :03:06.very sad for the Government, when I found out that it was going to be
:03:07. > :03:12.part of the agenda today, 34 hours ago, I tried to put in, I want to
:03:13. > :03:18.report an illegal immigrant on Google, and management system gave
:03:19. > :03:23.me error error after error. And then I thought, maybe it is my computer.
:03:24. > :03:27.So when I came in today, instead of doing my make up properly, I got our
:03:28. > :03:32.research are here to look up from this computer the same thing. I
:03:33. > :03:39.fear, it could even be just IT. When you see this particularly, the
:03:40. > :03:42.asylum cases are one thing, if they are real asylum cases, but it would
:03:43. > :03:59.seem to me are real asylum cases, but it would
:04:00. > :04:06.says, the idea of grassing, or shopping, call it what you like, but
:04:07. > :04:11.it strikes me that that was never going to yield tangible results, and
:04:12. > :04:15.I suspect what it is all about is the appearance of doing something,
:04:16. > :04:20.giving people the feeling they are involved. But there is an aspect of
:04:21. > :04:29.absurdity, with those government vans. Absurdity is a euphemism, I
:04:30. > :04:31.think it was really, really awful to see Britain, and whatever one says
:04:32. > :04:36.about its policies towards immigrants, it has always been
:04:37. > :04:41.generous and fair, and to have those vans focusing on six London boroughs
:04:42. > :04:47.where ethnic minorities are really big, I thought that was... I thought
:04:48. > :04:51.it was really awful almost unBritish, I thought. I think that
:04:52. > :05:14.is why they unBritish, I thought. I think that
:05:15. > :05:17.all. But the aim of successive Scottish Government has been to
:05:18. > :05:18.increase that, and Alex Salmond is one of the leading cheerleaders for
:05:19. > :05:25.it. Now it's time for our Daily Quiz.
:05:26. > :05:28.The question for today... Vince Cable has unveiled a ?1.5 million
:05:29. > :05:31.project for Milton Keynes - but what is it? Is it... A) No university
:05:32. > :05:35.tuition fees for the town's students? B) Driverless cars? C) A
:05:36. > :05:40.20-metre statue of himself? D) Reversible roundabouts? At the end
:05:41. > :05:50.of the show, our guests will give us the correct answer. Do you have a
:05:51. > :05:54.clue? No. Now, I know you've all been missing
:05:55. > :05:56.it but don't worry - it's back! I'm talking of course about James
:05:57. > :06:01.Wharton's EU Referendum Bill, which returns to the Commons today for its
:06:02. > :06:02.report stage. It is a private member's bill sponsored
:06:03. > :06:22.report stage. It is a private abstaining. The bill aims to set in
:06:23. > :06:25.stone - or at least in legislation - David Cameron's pledge at the
:06:26. > :06:30.beginning of the year to hold a referendum on Britain's membership
:06:31. > :06:35.of the EU by the end of 2017. But more than 50 amendments have been
:06:36. > :06:37.tabled. One of those is from Conservative backbencher and
:06:38. > :06:49.occasional troublemaker Adam Afriyie, who wants a referendum much
:06:50. > :06:52.sooner, in October next year. Very few private member's bills ever
:06:53. > :06:56.become law because they can easily be talked out by MPs who don't like
:06:57. > :07:00.the legislation. With his 36 amendments, Labour's Mike Gapes
:07:01. > :07:05.might be hoping to ruin Mr Wharton's day. But one person who has come to
:07:06. > :07:11.James Wharton's aid is the Foreign Secretary. William Hague has written
:07:12. > :07:12.to all Tory MPs asking for them to "refrain from speaking"
:07:13. > :07:38.designed to cause a headache for the rest of his party. The truth is, I
:07:39. > :07:42.get on very well with my Parliamentary colleagues. This is
:07:43. > :07:46.nothing to do with me, it should not really be much to do with MPs, other
:07:47. > :07:49.than passing legislation. What I am trying to do is to try to give a
:07:50. > :07:53.voice to the British people. This has been kicked down the road time
:07:54. > :07:57.and time again, so what I have got is an amendment, which I hope will
:07:58. > :08:01.because, so that actually, Parliament can say, once and for
:08:02. > :08:06.all, right, within this Parliament, let's settle this question. Let's
:08:07. > :08:12.get the latest on this from our political correspondent Carole
:08:13. > :08:18.Walker. -- Iain Watson. What has been happening in the chamber this
:08:19. > :08:21.morning? So far, they have been confining their comments to a very
:08:22. > :08:39.small part of Europe, the Rock of Gibraltar.
:08:40. > :08:41.small part of Europe, the Rock of Parliamentary elections. However, as
:08:42. > :08:44.you pointed out, this is a private members' bill, not a government ill,
:08:45. > :08:50.and it is struggling for Parliamentary time, with Labour MPs
:08:51. > :08:54.against it. Then, they opened up the debate and spoke about Argentina,
:08:55. > :08:57.decolonisation and a whole range of other issues. What they are trying
:08:58. > :09:01.to make sure is that there is not enough time for this bill to become
:09:02. > :09:05.law before the next election, so that Ed Miliband is not asked the
:09:06. > :09:16.question, are you in favour of a referendum or aren't you go off and
:09:17. > :09:21.this amendment, my understanding is that not even many Tory Eurosceptics
:09:22. > :09:25.are going to act it, is that right? It is, for the very simple reason,
:09:26. > :09:31.going back to the issue of time again, that basically, if more
:09:32. > :09:32.people chat away about issues to do with Europe,
:09:33. > :09:53.did get that, it would be very difficult to get a parliamentary
:09:54. > :09:57.majority for it, because the Liberal Democrats are opposed to holding a
:09:58. > :10:03.referendum before 2015. So, that is why they do not want people to speak
:10:04. > :10:08.for a very great deal of time. We do not yet know if it is going to be
:10:09. > :10:12.called. We will know at about two o'clock this afternoon. But
:10:13. > :10:19.bizarrely enough, that may well endanger the chances of getting the
:10:20. > :10:24.referendum on to the statute books. We are joined now from the central
:10:25. > :10:27.lobby in Parliament by the Conservative MP James Wharton. It is
:10:28. > :10:31.his bill, the one they are all trying to amend, and also by the
:10:32. > :10:36.Liberal Democrat MP Martin Horwood. James Wharton, is your bill now in
:10:37. > :10:40.some danger? I hope not. It is being debated at some length as we speak.
:10:41. > :10:42.I think we are making reasonable progress but it is going to be slow
:10:43. > :11:04.going. happening. Have your backbench
:11:05. > :11:09.colleagues followed Mr Hague's instruction to be pithy and to the
:11:10. > :11:14.point? They have. I have been delighted by how much support I have
:11:15. > :11:18.had from Conservative MPs. Today in the chamber, I thought there might
:11:19. > :11:21.be a few who would not be able to resist the urge to make a comment,
:11:22. > :11:26.but it has not happened. There have been barely a handful of very short
:11:27. > :11:30.interventions. The party is being disciplined and focused in trying to
:11:31. > :11:33.deliver this bill, because we know it is the best chance of delivering
:11:34. > :11:38.the referendum that the British people deserve. Martin Horwood, I
:11:39. > :11:41.think you are the only Lib Dem to table an amendment to the bill
:11:42. > :11:45.today, you want to change the wording, so are you trying to be
:11:46. > :11:51.hopeful, or are you being part of the blocking operation? The idea of
:11:52. > :12:09.that blocking group is a bit fanciful. The amendment
:12:10. > :12:11.that blocking group is a bit to fight crime across borders, to
:12:12. > :12:15.protect the environment across borders, many other things to do
:12:16. > :12:20.with consumer rights, we should debate these bills properly. It is
:12:21. > :12:24.not unusual to do that. I understand that, and I am grateful you do, it
:12:25. > :12:31.keeps us in a job, and it gives yourself in a job as well. It is the
:12:32. > :12:35.reason we get up in the morning. You speak for but if you get the wording
:12:36. > :12:40.changed, as per your amendment, would you then be happy to see a
:12:41. > :12:44.referendum in 2017? Well, we are not afraid of a referendum. I voted for
:12:45. > :12:53.a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, I voted for a referendum... So, we are
:12:54. > :12:56.not remotely afraid. We have said we are in favour of a referendum if it
:12:57. > :13:02.is at the right time. We do not want it to be held at a time when we are
:13:03. > :13:02.potentially in the middle of negotiating
:13:03. > :13:21.potentially in the middle of the offing if you take British,
:13:22. > :13:32.European and world affairs, there will always be something! Except we
:13:33. > :13:36.did actually vote and call for a referendum at the time of the Lisbon
:13:37. > :13:41.Treaty, not in five years' time but actually at that time. We supported
:13:42. > :13:47.it. So, we are not afraid of referendums. You say that but you
:13:48. > :13:53.will not give let me bring Mr Wharton back in - Mr Wharton, is
:13:54. > :13:59.Martin Horwood and ally or an enemy in this debate? He is of course a
:14:00. > :14:04.coalition colleague... So he is an enemy? On this particular issue, we
:14:05. > :14:08.have a slight disagreement. The fact is, he has tabled quite a few
:14:09. > :14:10.amendments, some of them were not selected, and he had a little row
:14:11. > :14:31.with the Speaker about that. But a selected, and he had a little row
:14:32. > :14:35.the north-east, said that if anything has to change in Britain's
:14:36. > :14:40.relationship with Europe, we would need to reconsider our strategy and
:14:41. > :14:44.our investments for the future? No, because I have not been arguing that
:14:45. > :14:48.we should be in all we should be out of the European Union. My argument
:14:49. > :14:52.is that people should be given a say on it so that we can end the
:14:53. > :14:58.uncertainty and get a proper settlement which is in the interests
:14:59. > :15:01.of the United Kingdom. Anybody is entitled to but you would vote to
:15:02. > :15:09.come out if you were presented with the choice of the status quo? If I
:15:10. > :15:15.was presented with that exactly as it is today, then yes, I would.
:15:16. > :15:19.Thereby jeopardising 6500 jobs 30 miles from your constituency in a
:15:20. > :15:21.car plant with some of the highest productivity in the world? That is
:15:22. > :15:41.not true. productivity in the world? That is
:15:42. > :15:45.But it is only the Conservatives and this bill which are giving people a
:15:46. > :15:49.choice. Mr Horwood, regardless of what you would like to happen, is
:15:50. > :16:01.your coalition colleague there are going to get his bill through today?
:16:02. > :16:06.I am sure it will survive, but Nissan and the CBI have focused on
:16:07. > :16:11.the real issue, which is about British jobs. This is about the
:16:12. > :16:15.jeopardy into which a campaign to exit from the European union would
:16:16. > :16:21.put millions of British jobs, not just those at Nissan, at risk. The
:16:22. > :16:27.Liberal Democrats are united at keeping the party in. The Tory party
:16:28. > :16:31.is deeply divided. They tried to conjure up the spill to conjure up
:16:32. > :16:49.some unity to last them until the next
:16:50. > :16:55.some unity to last them until the Nissan plant is still there. Why
:16:56. > :16:59.should we take notice of that? Woodworkers in Sunderland be
:17:00. > :17:03.prepared to take that gamble? Maybe you should not have taken that risk
:17:04. > :17:08.and we should have listened this time, but the CBI spoke for a much
:17:09. > :17:13.wider cross-section on Monday when they said there were no realistic
:17:14. > :17:18.alternative that would serve our economic interests. Are you going to
:17:19. > :17:24.get this Bill through today? The report will take a few more days.
:17:25. > :17:35.You will live to fight another day? Absolutely. Anybody listening to
:17:36. > :17:41.this? It is not just as that matters. If it happens in 2017, will
:17:42. > :18:01.the voters be better educated in the whole issue
:18:02. > :18:06.the voters be better educated in the Are we in Europe? You are not having
:18:07. > :18:17.a referendum on independence. The two are similar. You are always
:18:18. > :18:26.saying that the electorate are not educated. That this was your poll.
:18:27. > :18:33.All that is true, but at the end of the day a referendum is the best way
:18:34. > :18:38.of resolving that. And in the meantime education. It is the same
:18:39. > :18:46.in Scotland. The prime minister directly linked both referendums. He
:18:47. > :18:48.said both had been building up a head of steam for so long it
:18:49. > :19:09.dominated everything else and you have to draw a line underneath it.
:19:10. > :19:14.dominated everything else and you Simple answer, simple question. The
:19:15. > :19:20.spotlight must have been blinding after so many years in the shadows
:19:21. > :19:28.and into Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee strode
:19:29. > :19:33.GCHQ's director, MI5, boss and MI6's chief. It was their licence to
:19:34. > :19:40.spill. Here are some highlights from yesterday's historic session in
:19:41. > :19:45.Parliament. Why do you think it is necessary to
:19:46. > :19:49.collect information on the majority of the public in order to protect us
:19:50. > :19:59.from the minority of potential evildoers? I will work up to that,
:20:00. > :20:19.if I may. To clarify issues we do not spend our time listening to the
:20:20. > :20:22.if I may. To clarify issues we do That is not the case. It would be
:20:23. > :20:28.very nice if we knew who the terrorists were, but the Internet is
:20:29. > :20:34.a great way to make identification anonymous. So we have to do
:20:35. > :20:38.detective work. Can you guarantee us that you do not conduct operations
:20:39. > :20:44.that are out with the British legal framework? Yes, I can do that. We
:20:45. > :20:49.are subject to the law and I am also sure that is true of my sister
:20:50. > :20:54.agencies as well. The public are entitled to know more about the
:20:55. > :21:02.enormous damage that has been caused by the publication of classified
:21:03. > :21:06.material. Can you give examples? One is the dependence we now have on the
:21:07. > :21:10.fantastic work that GCHQ do to detect terrorist communications and
:21:11. > :21:28.that leads detect terrorist communications and
:21:29. > :21:35.agencies that used to that opportunity can be fragile if we use
:21:36. > :21:43.it. Then we are making a very difficult task even harder. I am not
:21:44. > :21:46.sure the journalists who are managing this very sensitive
:21:47. > :21:52.information are particularly well placed to make those judgements.
:21:53. > :21:59.What I can tell you is that the leaks from Edward Snowden have been
:22:00. > :22:04.very damaging. They put our operations at risk. It is clear our
:22:05. > :22:10.adversaries are rubbing their hands with glee. Al-Qaeda is lapping it
:22:11. > :22:16.up. You have made that remark. I think we need to hear why you feel
:22:17. > :22:18.you are entitled to say that. Can you say why you believe that to be
:22:19. > :22:38.true? I you say why you believe that to be
:22:39. > :22:43.We are joined by Isabella Sankey from the human rights pressure group
:22:44. > :22:48.Liberty and the intelligence historical writer Nigel West. Were
:22:49. > :22:55.they convincing about the threat to security caused by the leaks? To the
:22:56. > :23:00.extent they were free to disclose supporting evidence I think it was
:23:01. > :23:03.convincing. They are going to go into private section with the
:23:04. > :23:07.Intelligence and Security Committee and give them chapter and verse and
:23:08. > :23:12.identify specific cases. The disappointment is they were not even
:23:13. > :23:16.stronger pointing out this information even though it may have
:23:17. > :23:21.been disclosed illegally by the Guardian and by Edward Snowden
:23:22. > :23:27.remains classified. It is an offence for anybody to download this
:23:28. > :23:30.material and put it on their laptop. What do you think?
:23:31. > :23:52.questions about whether Cabinet ministers knew about the extent of
:23:53. > :23:59.mass surveillance we now understand takes place. They did not. How
:24:00. > :24:02.parliamentarians were allowed to have extended debate about extending
:24:03. > :24:11.capabilities which we now know are being made use of and what authority
:24:12. > :24:14.they had specifically to undertake interception of the British public.
:24:15. > :24:18.It was interesting we have from GCHQ that they do not look at the vast
:24:19. > :24:27.majority of communications, leaving them room to look at the minority.
:24:28. > :24:32.It is preposterous to expect these individuals to work in a handicapped
:24:33. > :24:35.way, one hand tied behind their back. The technology is there and
:24:36. > :24:39.there is nothing illegal about what they are doing. They are collecting
:24:40. > :24:59.the haystack so as to be able to they are doing. They are collecting
:25:00. > :25:03.being intercepted. It is impractical and it is beyond their capability,
:25:04. > :25:08.they do not have resources to do that. They made this claim and they
:25:09. > :25:13.used the committee as a platform to do so, and they all did it to say
:25:14. > :25:20.that what the Guardian published had been of benefit to our enemies. But
:25:21. > :25:26.that is a claim. They did not, maybe for obvious reasons, present the
:25:27. > :25:30.evidence. You say it is going to be done behind closed doors, but that
:25:31. > :25:34.means we have to take it on trust and we do not think we should always
:25:35. > :25:42.take spies on trust. Trust is not what they operate on. You have had
:25:43. > :25:46.long experience of encounters with the intelligence community at the
:25:47. > :26:10.Sunday Times. And it was not always an issue to trust. But where
:26:11. > :26:16.Sunday Times. And it was not always current operations. That is the
:26:17. > :26:19.claim. I am sure you could get an off-camera briefing to explain to
:26:20. > :26:25.you how one of the disclosures has directly affected a major
:26:26. > :26:31.counterterrorism operation costing a lot of money being run right now.
:26:32. > :26:35.Does it not stand to reason that if you expose the manner and methods by
:26:36. > :26:40.which the intelligence services are trying to access communications of
:26:41. > :26:45.those who would do us harm, that helps those who would do us harm?
:26:46. > :26:52.Everyone in the world has been talking about using alternatives to
:26:53. > :26:56.communicate given the unprecedented come -- abilities they have. But
:26:57. > :27:00.there is a distinction to be made. We are not talking about the
:27:01. > :27:18.technical capabilities, We are not talking about the
:27:19. > :27:25.widely in these disclosures and was confirmed yesterday. It is often
:27:26. > :27:30.claimed that they are listening to as all the time, or they are
:27:31. > :27:44.tracking our communication. Do we know that? There is no evidence
:27:45. > :27:48.that. The meter data, that information went to the Supreme
:27:49. > :27:53.Court in the United States and the Dutchman was that there was no
:27:54. > :27:58.expectation of privacy because the information was already known to the
:27:59. > :28:03.telephone company. A lot of people were upset, but this has been going
:28:04. > :28:09.on for decades. Who you called and how long you spoke to them. Yes, it
:28:10. > :28:10.is not the content of the call. The other thing that is really
:28:11. > :28:30.important. other thing that is really
:28:31. > :28:34.say none of this has compromised any sources or methods or techniques,
:28:35. > :28:43.that is a lie. They do not realise it. What is your response? It is
:28:44. > :28:48.about interception. The disclosures told as millions of communications
:28:49. > :28:54.are being intercepted every day by GCHQ, including many interceptions
:28:55. > :28:58.of British citizens will stop do you mean the content? A physical
:28:59. > :29:04.interception has taken place and they have alternated mechanisms to
:29:05. > :29:09.try and trawl through the contents, so content is being read in an
:29:10. > :29:16.automated way. You are shaking your head. You do not think there is
:29:17. > :29:38.evidence to show that? There is no evidence. What is your evidence?
:29:39. > :29:40.evidence to show that? There is no is taking place. There is a
:29:41. > :29:46.difference between interception and collection. I would trust the
:29:47. > :29:58.director GCHQ to know whether he was collecting or not. Interception and
:29:59. > :30:06.reading the content is protected under the 1986. I am more concerned
:30:07. > :30:15.with the spooks intercepting my telephone call ban the Guardian
:30:16. > :30:19.holding to ransom, and I do not see that a newspaper editor, even the
:30:20. > :30:28.best ones, has the expertise to know exactly who he is placing in
:30:29. > :30:50.danger, which plots he is hampered -- he has hampered, and it is
:30:51. > :30:51.danger, which plots he is hampered that at the end of the day, the
:30:52. > :30:55.intelligence services, like government business, relies on much
:30:56. > :31:01.of its day-to-day business being conducted in secret. Sure, there may
:31:02. > :31:06.be some overreach, but I am not sure any of this is leading anywhere
:31:07. > :31:10.particularly useful. There, the case has been laid out from both sides.
:31:11. > :31:17.Now, what will you be doing at 11pm on June 14 2014? Cheering on the
:31:18. > :31:21.opening games of the World Cup in Brazil, of course. The problem is,
:31:22. > :31:26.you probably will not be doing it in the pub, because of the time
:31:27. > :31:32.difference. Quite a few of the matches will be happening when it is
:31:33. > :31:35.last orders. So, the pub trade and one Tory MP have joined forces to
:31:36. > :31:37.campaign for a change to the licensing laws. Here is Adam to
:31:38. > :32:03.explain. if you want to. Well, they can,
:32:04. > :32:07.thanks to the 2003 Licensing Act. It has happened before, most recently
:32:08. > :32:11.in the royal wedding, two years ago, when 20,000 pubs took advantage of
:32:12. > :32:16.it. The idea of doing it again has been raised at the highest level.
:32:17. > :32:20.Football fans across England are looking forward to cheering on Roy
:32:21. > :32:24.Hodgson's team in Brazil next year. There is no better way to do that
:32:25. > :32:27.than by enjoying a pint in your local pub. Yet because of Britain's
:32:28. > :32:32.licensing laws and because of the time delay, many people will be
:32:33. > :32:37.unable to watch the football and enjoy a pint at the same time. Pub
:32:38. > :32:43.trade say it would help them raise an extra ?20 million in revenue, and
:32:44. > :32:47.they only want to open longer in the opening and closing weekends, rather
:32:48. > :32:48.than for the whole tournament. The Home Office say they are considering
:32:49. > :33:11.the request, but say they only Home Office say they are considering
:33:12. > :33:19.British Beer And Hub Association. Welcome to The Daily Politics. Can
:33:20. > :33:23.pubs apply locally anyway? Yes, they can apply for a temporary event
:33:24. > :33:27.notice, but as your piece showed, if you have to pay and you can only
:33:28. > :33:31.have a certain number each year... This was done for the Diamond
:33:32. > :33:35.Jubilee and for the royal wedding. We believe that football is our
:33:36. > :33:40.national game, that British beer and British pubs are hugely important to
:33:41. > :33:45.local communities, and it is worth probably conventionally about ?20
:33:46. > :33:49.million. The biggest business will be done when you are following
:33:50. > :33:55.England games, this is going to be a very temporary event, why not just
:33:56. > :33:59.leave it to the local authorities? We are not asking for it just for
:34:00. > :34:18.the England games, and of course, the police have the right
:34:19. > :34:20.the England games, and of course, some football, but we do not yet
:34:21. > :34:26.even know whether that would be England or not. I suspect crowds
:34:27. > :34:29.going to the pub for the royal wedding would be slightly different
:34:30. > :34:34.to those going to the pub for a foot or match. But leaving that to one
:34:35. > :34:38.side, don't most people watch these football matches, particularly at
:34:39. > :34:43.this time of night, in the comfort of their homes, with a few mates?
:34:44. > :34:47.No, actually, people have a tradition of going to the pub to
:34:48. > :34:56.watch matches which we do every weekend. The increase was up to 8%
:34:57. > :35:00.on food, as well as 5% on alcohol. Food is a very important part now
:35:01. > :35:04.make up, we need an economic boost in this country at the moment, as
:35:05. > :35:08.well as for pubs. We are still closing pubs. We have had a
:35:09. > :35:28.fantastic reduction in beer duty this year, we would like to see
:35:29. > :35:32.fantastic reduction in beer duty worth ?1.5 trillion. I have already
:35:33. > :35:37.said that the World Cup is worth ?50 million overall to pubs. That ?20
:35:38. > :35:45.million is purely for these extended hours. It is about drinking a bit
:35:46. > :35:50.more, but it is also about, I mean, beer in is a great British product,
:35:51. > :35:53.it is relatively low in alcohol. But then they will be pouring out of the
:35:54. > :35:57.pubs at one o'clock in the morning in a drunken stupor, creating
:35:58. > :36:02.problems for the police, creating noise... And some of us know that
:36:03. > :36:13.the proper sports in this world are rugby and cricket, so what are we
:36:14. > :36:17.going to do? Andrew, you know that football is a great British
:36:18. > :36:37.institution. We know that 35,000 pubs showed the last World Cup.
:36:38. > :36:40.institution. We know that 35,000 a proper sport. Even though England
:36:41. > :36:50.have not it is real men that play that. Where are you on this? I loved
:36:51. > :36:54.everything you said, and also, can we please bring back the real pub,
:36:55. > :37:07.as opposed to the gastropods which ICN my bit of London? They are so
:37:08. > :37:14.snooty, they are so fake. -- which I see in my bit. Where do you live? S
:37:15. > :37:26.W ten, West London. It is only posh pubs around there. What about in
:37:27. > :37:28.Scotland, will they be cheering on whoever England is playing, even if
:37:29. > :37:46.it is North Korea? whoever England is playing, even if
:37:47. > :37:52.that Labour had never liberalised the licensing laws in England. Let
:37:53. > :38:00.me just get a final word from our friend up in Leeds - how is your
:38:01. > :38:03.argument going with the Government? The reason we are asking now is
:38:04. > :38:08.because this is quite a complicated process, and would need a vote in
:38:09. > :38:10.both Houses of Parliament. But I think there is a lot of support for
:38:11. > :38:14.this, and from an economic perspective, there should be,
:38:15. > :38:19.whether you are interested in the football or not. Thank you for being
:38:20. > :38:23.with us. I will let you go because the pubs are open. Now, for the
:38:24. > :38:29.latest in our series of political thinkers. This week, the comedian
:38:30. > :38:33.Alistair McGowan has been to Giles' allotment to explain why his
:38:34. > :38:38.favourite thinker is the Green Economist EF Schumacher, best known
:38:39. > :38:59.for his 1973 bestselling book Small Is Beautiful.
:39:00. > :39:05.The environment and sustainability are ideas which we have become used
:39:06. > :39:09.to in the modern world, but where did they come from? I have come to
:39:10. > :39:12.my allotment to meet an impressionist the things we could
:39:13. > :39:18.all imitate the ideas of EF Schumacher. Alistair McGowan,
:39:19. > :39:21.welcome to my little patch of soil. We are going to dig up some
:39:22. > :39:27.beetroot. What attracts you about what Schumacher was saying? I first
:39:28. > :39:32.became an environmentalist, if you like, 25 years ago. I had read an
:39:33. > :39:36.article about recycling and how we were throwing away our national
:39:37. > :39:40.resources, and it was amazing to think that 15 years before that,
:39:41. > :39:44.Schumacher, in Small Is Beautiful, have been saying the same thing. He
:39:45. > :39:46.was ahead of his time, but actually we are still catching up with his
:39:47. > :40:07.theories. You should be we are still catching up with his
:40:08. > :40:11.Schumacher talking about? He wrote a treaty of 280 pages, and people are
:40:12. > :40:16.still trying to come to terms with it. But really, funny, it is living
:40:17. > :40:21.within your means. We all try to that financially. He refers to
:40:22. > :40:25.natural resources as capital, and that they are finite, so we have to
:40:26. > :40:32.manage them, and make sure we do not run out of them. In this country we
:40:33. > :40:36.are consuming enough that we would need three planets to sustain as if
:40:37. > :40:48.the whole world lived like us. Let's go and get some lunch. Does it have
:40:49. > :40:54.to be beetroot? It does not. Small Is Beautiful is undoubtedly one of
:40:55. > :40:57.the most influential and important political books of the 20th-century.
:40:58. > :41:16.His work speaks to people political books of the 20th-century.
:41:17. > :41:21.for our time. Fritz Schumacher, a German emigre who came to Britain
:41:22. > :41:23.before the Second World War, became an internationally influential
:41:24. > :41:29.economic thinker, statistician and economist, serving as CEO and
:41:30. > :41:35.adviser to the coal board in the 1950s for 20 years. But bits of his
:41:36. > :41:40.thinking made some people uncomfortable. He had ideas of the
:41:41. > :41:46.great chain of being, different kinds of economics, Buddhism, into
:41:47. > :41:51.his moral view about how human life should be led. So, it is not
:41:52. > :41:54.beetroot, we have got cake, but isn't there a problem for the
:41:55. > :41:57.environmental movement that it sometimes comes across as a bit of a
:41:58. > :42:02.religion, that if you do not believe, then you are a bad person?
:42:03. > :42:06.Possibly, yes, because people who believe in the environment show a
:42:07. > :42:07.lot of emotion. The very sensitive to the way the world is being
:42:08. > :42:25.ruined, the way animals are to the way the world is being
:42:26. > :42:29.screens, all of them on, nobody watching any of them. I thought,
:42:30. > :42:34.that sums up our wistfulness, our lack of sustainability, right
:42:35. > :42:39.there. You eat up, I have got a plan. Fritz Schumacher would be very
:42:40. > :42:47.proud of us. Michael Schumacher might not be quite so impressed. I
:42:48. > :42:51.suppose the essential question is, are we paying any attention to
:42:52. > :42:54.Schumacher today? Inadvertently, I think we are. A huge number of
:42:55. > :42:58.businesses have put sustainability at the call of their business model.
:42:59. > :43:04.They know it makes sense ethically, and also it saves them money. But I
:43:05. > :43:08.do think an awful lot of politicians, the likes of William
:43:09. > :43:12.Hague, Boris Johnson, and even Andrew Neil, still think that
:43:13. > :43:15.business is about making money at all costs. It cannot do that because
:43:16. > :43:37.there is a huge cost all costs. It cannot do that because
:43:38. > :43:41.are joined from Bristol by Ian Roderick, the director of the
:43:42. > :43:47.Schumacher Institute. Welcome to the programme. Can we discern an
:43:48. > :43:55.influence of this man on our current politics? I think the influence he
:43:56. > :44:00.has is indirect, in many ways, that we have both a vibrant green
:44:01. > :44:08.movement in this country and across Europe, which is extremely
:44:09. > :44:16.influenced by his work, and also, where we see issues is in the way
:44:17. > :44:20.that our politics is organised, which makes it very difficult to
:44:21. > :44:25.make big decisions. Schumacher in many ways worked towards big
:44:26. > :44:26.decisions. Should we see him as an environmentalist or as an economist?
:44:27. > :44:48.He was certainly environmentalist or as an economist?
:44:49. > :44:53.and how we are employed. Work was an extremely important aspect of his
:44:54. > :44:56.own work. Small Is Beautiful is the catchphrase which he is most
:44:57. > :45:02.associated with in the public mind - what did he mean by that? That is a
:45:03. > :45:11.very interesting thing. In many ways, you can rephrase it as
:45:12. > :45:15.appropriateness. Going just after things which are small is not
:45:16. > :45:19.necessarily right, it has to be of an appropriate level and scale. He
:45:20. > :45:25.was reacting to the gigantism of his day, where the idea that bigger was
:45:26. > :45:32.better. So, smallness is a nice idea, because it gets you back to
:45:33. > :45:35.working with your local people, with the community, getting everything in
:45:36. > :46:02.the right the community, getting everything in
:46:03. > :46:08.not seem to have won the argument? , it is true, but there is a
:46:09. > :46:12.tremendous social appeal. For me it is the catholic social justice. He
:46:13. > :46:20.says, take pleasure and pride in your work. Even if it is a small bit
:46:21. > :46:24.of carpentry that you are doing. Take great pleasure in that. You are
:46:25. > :46:31.never a cork in the wheel, you are part of a big, holistic industry. I
:46:32. > :46:40.know it sounds romantic and sentimental to you, but I loved
:46:41. > :46:45.Small is Beautiful. I remember when it came out. Is Scottish
:46:46. > :47:05.independence part of it? Schumacher is excited by
:47:06. > :47:07.reality of modern governance and globalisation is that we are at
:47:08. > :47:15.different levels and the trick is finding the best one. He was writing
:47:16. > :47:19.at a time in 1973 where prices have quadrupled and the world was running
:47:20. > :47:30.out of oil and sustainability became popular. The world is awash with oil
:47:31. > :47:36.and gas now, compared to 1973. People like him who said it was all
:47:37. > :47:42.going to run out for them it has not worked out that way. Yes, it has. We
:47:43. > :47:48.are running out of conventional oil, which peaked probably about two or
:47:49. > :47:54.three years ago. Now we are using unconventional oil from deep ocean
:47:55. > :47:56.drilling. It is difficult to get it and it is extremely expensive, that
:47:57. > :48:16.is why the Schumacher published his book.
:48:17. > :48:21.Certainly there are reserves that are being tapped, but we are very
:48:22. > :48:27.seriously seeing the decline in conventional oil and that is going
:48:28. > :48:30.to continue. We are trying to patch a system, we are trying to keep
:48:31. > :48:40.things going and we are very successful at that. Thank you for
:48:41. > :48:46.joining us today. With his incisive questions, his Ulster broke and the
:48:47. > :48:51.trademark overcoat, John Cole led us through the turbulent political
:48:52. > :48:56.events of the 80s. As the political editor he had a ringside seat on
:48:57. > :49:01.Thatcherism, the unions and the Falklands War. Yesterday at the age
:49:02. > :49:06.of 85 he passed away. Let's revisit some of his finest moments.
:49:07. > :49:27.For years I some of his finest moments.
:49:28. > :49:31.first offered another post... Rather dramatically I appeared on radio for
:49:32. > :49:37.having dashed downstairs from Radio 2 to say the same thing. You have
:49:38. > :49:44.heard about these atrocities and bombs and you do not expect them to
:49:45. > :49:52.happen to you. But life must go on. And your conference will go on? The
:49:53. > :50:01.conference will go on as usual. Which I joined by a colleague of
:50:02. > :50:06.John Cole's Nick Jones. It is a sad day for the country, for journalists
:50:07. > :50:13.and the BBC. He is famously known for his broadcasting, but he was
:50:14. > :50:15.originally a print journalist. He started in Belfast and was on the
:50:16. > :50:35.Guardian and on the observer and started in Belfast and was on the
:50:36. > :50:40.I also work. You had to remember that he had this background
:50:41. > :50:44.knowledge about the whole of the trade union movement and the
:50:45. > :50:49.industrial world which is exactly where Margaret Thatcher was
:50:50. > :50:56.interested. And where the story was. And you saw that moment with
:50:57. > :51:01.Margaret Thatcher after the bomb in Brighton and she sees John Cole and
:51:02. > :51:04.she picked him out. She knows he is a recognisable face, although the
:51:05. > :51:12.security people are pushing them away. She goes straight to John Cole
:51:13. > :51:16.and that is the tribute. He became a national figure through being the
:51:17. > :51:22.BBC's political editor and a very distinctive figure as well, not in
:51:23. > :51:25.the tradition of BBC political editor is. He had the ability to be
:51:26. > :51:44.emphatic. editor is. He had the ability to be
:51:45. > :51:49.remember those days, I am sure you do, we are talking about the early
:51:50. > :51:54.80s and there was not rolling news. The nine O'Clock News was a very
:51:55. > :51:59.important statement by the BBC. John Cole would come in and he would
:52:00. > :52:05.often have that lovely, herringbone coat, because it was very cold
:52:06. > :52:10.during the miners' strike, and there he would be. There was no doubt
:52:11. > :52:15.about it, he was putting that ending to the story in a way that people
:52:16. > :52:21.understood. That is the authority he brought and he had this tremendous
:52:22. > :52:26.experience in print, so he was able to command that position. Because of
:52:27. > :52:35.his knowledge and his contacts and the distinctive Ulster broke, he
:52:36. > :52:56.became very popular. it onto spitting image. Everybody
:52:57. > :53:01.tried to take him off. One of the things that was so memorable to me
:53:02. > :53:09.when I got into television was the camera crews used to say, we made
:53:10. > :53:14.John, because they used to frame the picture in the best possible way
:53:15. > :53:19.because he got on with everybody. They made sure there was never any
:53:20. > :53:25.problem with the shock of John Cole. That made it for him. You would turn
:53:26. > :53:33.on the television on a major story and you knew he would be there. Who
:53:34. > :53:38.did Mrs Thatcher turn to? John Cole. I do remember him and I think the
:53:39. > :53:44.authority he had, but it was never cold. He was a warm, sympathetic
:53:45. > :53:46.person as well as that authority. What a good man.
:53:47. > :54:08.as well. He carried writing dashed carried on writing during his BBC
:54:09. > :54:13.career and that had a lot of authority as well. When I look back
:54:14. > :54:17.on those years there is no doubt about it, because of rolling news,
:54:18. > :54:25.our journalism has become a bit diluted. There is not so much. It
:54:26. > :54:33.was very authoritative when he wrote it. Who has had a good week and who
:54:34. > :54:40.has had a shopper? This is the political week in 60 seconds. Ed
:54:41. > :54:49.Miliband stopped by for a quick cuppa and offered a friendly deal.
:54:50. > :54:51.The living wage. It was also boosted by the victory of Bill de Blasio,
:54:52. > :55:16.New York's left leaning Mayor. by the victory of Bill de Blasio,
:55:17. > :55:25.put. It is clear our adverse arrays are rubbing their hands with glee. I
:55:26. > :55:33.cannot apologise. That sorry is not the hardest word for the Toronto
:55:34. > :55:48.Mayor. I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely apologise. I mean that
:55:49. > :55:57.most sincerely, folks. You have got this new book out on Scotland. Am I
:55:58. > :56:01.right in thinking that the vote for Scotland to leave the United Kingdom
:56:02. > :56:02.and those who want to stay is not changing very much as the campaign
:56:03. > :56:23.gathers pace. No, it is changing very much as the campaign
:56:24. > :56:27.most recent poll makes it look as if it is down, but it has not changed
:56:28. > :56:32.on the yes side or the no side and that is after a year of campaigning.
:56:33. > :56:38.Am I right in thinking when the Nationalists had led conference
:56:39. > :56:44.there was a change in tactics or strategy? The emphasis had been on
:56:45. > :56:46.independence and the case for it. At this conference they started
:56:47. > :56:52.treating it more like a general election. If you voted to leave, the
:56:53. > :56:56.minimum wage would rise, the energy bills would fall, you can retire
:56:57. > :57:02.early, there will be no welfare cuts. I am going to fight it like a
:57:03. > :57:10.general election to see if that moves the polls. In a week or so we
:57:11. > :57:12.have the White Paper which has been overhyped. This is from Edinburgh?
:57:13. > :57:35.Yes, overhyped. This is from Edinburgh?
:57:36. > :57:40.they got a majority. I wonder what it would take to move the polls much
:57:41. > :57:50.more in their direction and bring the two sides much more even
:57:51. > :57:56.Stevens? The New York Times correspondent said it would take a
:57:57. > :57:59.seismic event in England, a catastrophic political crisis, a
:58:00. > :58:04.memo by the prime minister saying why Scotland was terrible, something
:58:05. > :58:12.of that magnitude to see a decisive shift, and that has not happened so
:58:13. > :58:21.far. There is still time. The quiz. Vince Cable is putting ?1.5 billion
:58:22. > :58:24.into Milton Keynes. What was it for? Driverless cars. That is the correct
:58:25. > :58:47.answer. Really? Driverless cars. That is the correct
:58:48. > :58:51.Remembrance Sunday. My guests will include labour's deputy leader
:58:52. > :58:55.Harriet Harman and the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage. Sadly not
:58:56. > :59:02.together. That would be fun!