:00:37. > :00:46.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. This looks like
:00:47. > :00:50.another bad day for RBS. A new report suggests the bank shuttered
:00:51. > :00:56.stores deliberately in order to drive small businesses to the wall
:00:57. > :01:00.and seize their assets on the cheap. It's very, very, very long.
:01:01. > :01:03.In fact, the bill paving the way for High Speed Two is the biggest we've
:01:04. > :01:07.ever seen, and it's published today. But will it ever make law?
:01:08. > :01:12.Should the arts be singing for their supper? We'll be asking what level
:01:13. > :01:20.of public funding they deserve. And...
:01:21. > :01:26.# Take on me. Ed Miliband on brotherly love and
:01:27. > :01:30.his Desert Island discs. All that in the next hour. And with
:01:31. > :01:33.us for the first half of the programme today, and adding a touch
:01:34. > :01:39.of glamour to the show, is the former ballerina, Deborah Bull.
:01:40. > :01:43.Welcome to the programme. Deborah was also the creative director of
:01:44. > :01:46.the Royal Opera House. She is currently director of the Cultural
:01:47. > :01:49.Institute at Kings College London. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now,
:01:50. > :01:53.first this morning, let's talk about payday loans because the Government
:01:54. > :01:56.is to introduce a new law to cap the cost of payday loans. Ministers want
:01:57. > :02:01.to limit interest rates, which at the moment can exceed 4000%. Labour
:02:02. > :02:04.pledged to crack down on payday lenders some time ago but the
:02:05. > :02:14.Chancellor, George Osborne, denies he's stolen the opposition's idea.
:02:15. > :02:19.We inherited a situation where the payday lending industry was almost
:02:20. > :02:22.entirely unregulated, leading to outrageous fees and totally
:02:23. > :02:27.unacceptable practices. We will now cap the cost of credit for the
:02:28. > :02:31.payday lending industry, because we are on the side of hard-working
:02:32. > :02:37.people, we want to make sure they are properly protected and we want
:02:38. > :02:41.the banking system to work for them. Is the Government right to
:02:42. > :02:43.intervene? There has to be evidence of real
:02:44. > :02:51.harm for the government to intervene. It does it when there is
:02:52. > :02:53.real harm, with alcohol and tobacco. Intervening now seems to suggest
:02:54. > :02:59.they have accepted the evidence that there is real harm, but that means
:03:00. > :03:03.that the Government needs to look at it more broadly. I am glad they are
:03:04. > :03:07.looking at terms and conditions, but I think advertising has a role to
:03:08. > :03:12.play. The Money Advice Service found that over a million people would be
:03:13. > :03:19.going to payday lenders to fund Christmas. Why do they think there
:03:20. > :03:22.is the need? Many people just can't get loans from high-street banks,
:03:23. > :03:32.they are having to pay higher interest to payday lenders. And
:03:33. > :03:39.others are saying they'll -- they are dodgy but useful. Do they have a
:03:40. > :03:43.role to play? Of course, but it is ensuring the most vulnerable are not
:03:44. > :03:47.targeted through inappropriate advertising, prevalence,
:03:48. > :03:52.availability, through affordability checks which become nothing more
:03:53. > :03:56.than a wing and a prayer. Lots of these payday lending shops are
:03:57. > :04:01.prevalent on certain high streets. The more you see them, I suppose the
:04:02. > :04:06.more people will be tempted to use them. If you combine that with the
:04:07. > :04:10.power of advertising, which makes us all feel inadequate, that we have to
:04:11. > :04:15.give more to our children and how the things that somebody else has, I
:04:16. > :04:24.think it is good they are looking at it and I am in favour. Do you
:04:25. > :04:26.think... The Government denies they have performed a U-turn, but you
:04:27. > :04:32.think they are becoming more interested in intervening where they
:04:33. > :04:38.think markets are failing? There is a question whether governments are
:04:39. > :04:44.acting for what they believe or because they think it will will map
:04:45. > :04:47.votes. -- win them votes. I tend to think these are pretty good
:04:48. > :04:52.statements that I think there is real harm being done by excessive
:04:53. > :04:55.borrowing, to easy borrowing. If good comes out of it, that is a good
:04:56. > :04:59.thing. Now it's time for our daily quiz.
:05:00. > :05:03.The question for today is who chairs the all-parliamentary dance group?
:05:04. > :05:15.Is it Vince Cable, Theresa May, Sir Gerald Kaufman or Caroline Flint?
:05:16. > :05:18.There's a challenge for you! At the end of the first half of the show,
:05:19. > :05:22.Debra will try to give us the correct answer.
:05:23. > :05:25.George Osborne says he is shocked, Vince Cable is appalled, Labour says
:05:26. > :05:28.it's deplorable. Those are just some of the phrases used to describe the
:05:29. > :05:32.latest allegations against the Royal Bank of Scotland. RBS is accused of
:05:33. > :05:36.deliberately forcing some companies into administration in order to
:05:37. > :05:39.seize their assets. Those are the allegations contained in a new
:05:40. > :05:42.report into bank lending out this morning. The report has been
:05:43. > :05:45.produced by this man, Lawrence Tomlinson, a wealthy entrepreneur
:05:46. > :05:51.who made his fortune in the care home business. He focuses his
:05:52. > :05:54.criticism on a division at RBS known as the Global Restructuring Group,
:05:55. > :06:01.or GRG, which handles loans which are deemed to be risky. Mr Tomlinson
:06:02. > :06:07.claims that some perfectly good companies have been engineered into
:06:08. > :06:10.GRG, some of which then collapsed. He states that a perception has
:06:11. > :06:13.arisen that the intention is to purposefully distress businesses, to
:06:14. > :06:16.put them in GRG and subsequently take their assets at a discounted
:06:17. > :06:19.price. Another review from the former Deputy Governor of the Bank
:06:20. > :06:29.of England, Sir Andrew Large, into the lending practices at RBS is also
:06:30. > :06:31.being published today. His initial findings earlier this month found
:06:32. > :06:40.serious allegations of poor treatment by firms in financial
:06:41. > :06:43.distress. With me now are the Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna and
:06:44. > :06:47.the Conservative MP, Brooks Newmark, who sits on the Treasury select
:06:48. > :06:54.committee. Does this surprise you, Brooks Newmark? No. I have talked
:06:55. > :07:00.about it since I first got on the select committee. All MPs get
:07:01. > :07:05.constituents who write in and particularly focus on the banks, RBS
:07:06. > :07:08.in particular. More than almost any other bank it has been driving
:07:09. > :07:14.perfectly healthy businesses underwater. It is the allegation
:07:15. > :07:18.that perfectly viable businesses, not ones that were struggling but
:07:19. > :07:29.ones that were doing all right, were driven out of business? One argument
:07:30. > :07:36.is perfect with healthy SMEs that suddenly have the goalposts moved,
:07:37. > :07:40.there loan comes up for renewal and they are told they are no longer
:07:41. > :07:44.lending to that sector. Once one bank says no, even if you are
:07:45. > :07:49.healthy, no other bank will touch you with a barge pole. But you
:07:50. > :07:55.accept that people are attached to their businesses emotionally, as
:07:56. > :08:00.well as financially, and RBS under the banks were being put under huge
:08:01. > :08:05.pressure to clean up their balance sheets, get rid of businesses that
:08:06. > :08:08.could perhaps be viewed as difficult in the future, but not all of them
:08:09. > :08:14.were viable and perhaps they were just doing what was necessary? All
:08:15. > :08:20.banks need to clean up unsure of their balance sheets and provide
:08:21. > :08:24.more liquidity, ie more cash. But they were driving perfectly viable
:08:25. > :08:29.businesses underwater and not working through their restructuring
:08:30. > :08:34.group. Businesses teetering on the edge, they drove them under rather
:08:35. > :08:42.than saving them. You recognise this? We have had an ignoble --
:08:43. > :08:47.anecdotal evidence to that effect. But the central allegation of the
:08:48. > :08:51.report is that RBS was systematically and artificially
:08:52. > :08:54.distressing businesses with the goal of putting them under to seize their
:08:55. > :09:02.assets and therefore profit from that. That is gravely serious. Vince
:09:03. > :09:05.Cable is right to refer to the Financial Conduct Authority Amber
:09:06. > :09:11.Prudential Regulation Authority, that RBS can do two things which I
:09:12. > :09:16.think will give people confidence. -- and the Prudential Regulation
:09:17. > :09:20.Authority. The RBS chief executive has two confirmed that the Global
:09:21. > :09:24.Restructuring Group is not used as a profit centre but used to minimise
:09:25. > :09:28.losses in respect of potentially distressed businesses. Just
:09:29. > :09:32.confirming that fact, I think, would start on a road to giving people
:09:33. > :09:37.confidence that they are not a rigging the system. The second thing
:09:38. > :09:41.that needs to happen is the core problem that is identified as the
:09:42. > :09:45.way in which the business's assets are valued. They are saying that the
:09:46. > :09:49.way they are valued as skewed towards giving them an undervalued
:09:50. > :09:57.so that the bank, through its West Register property owning arm, can
:09:58. > :10:00.seize these assets. But the validation should begin and not just
:10:01. > :10:04.to the bank but the businesses as well, so the valuation has a duty of
:10:05. > :10:09.care to the businesses, not just the bank. I would like to know what RBS
:10:10. > :10:13.has two say. We would like to hear from them, they are going to make a
:10:14. > :10:19.statement. What happened to regulation? It depends which period
:10:20. > :10:23.you are talking about. Post the crash, as we have seen recently with
:10:24. > :10:26.the Paul Flowers case, it has been grossly lamentable. We wanted to see
:10:27. > :10:44.a step change in the I think the point that Chuka Umunna
:10:45. > :10:49.makes is correct, if they are trying to be a profit centre and prey on
:10:50. > :10:55.weak businesses to put them under, that is a serious allegation that
:10:56. > :10:58.must be dealt with. But you are talking about anecdotal evidence.
:10:59. > :11:04.People will question this entrepreneur in residence, a
:11:05. > :11:07.businessman who will have sympathy, rightly or wrongly, with the
:11:08. > :11:10.businesses concerned. Are you absolutely sure that that very
:11:11. > :11:15.serious allegation will be borne out, if you like? Our business
:11:16. > :11:21.editor today says the bank is under huge pressure to get rid of the
:11:22. > :11:26.zombie businesses, failing businesses, pressure from both your
:11:27. > :11:32.government and your government put RBS under huge pressure. That is why
:11:33. > :11:40.Vince Cable is right to have reverted to authorities concerned,
:11:41. > :11:44.you are right to question the facts. I used to practice as a lawyer
:11:45. > :11:54.myself, I did not do much insolvency, but posted 2008/2009 and
:11:55. > :11:59.the holy nationalised nature of RBS, its management became more
:12:00. > :12:02.centralised, there was less local discretion for relationship managers
:12:03. > :12:07.and within the unit, which may have impacted on how people were treated.
:12:08. > :12:11.To what extent did the incentive arrangements of those managing that
:12:12. > :12:17.unit linked to what may have happened? There is another issue.
:12:18. > :12:22.Potentially, to me, it would seem there are issues of legality,
:12:23. > :12:29.whether this was lawful, what was going on. Do you accept that the
:12:30. > :12:35.tripartite regulation under Labour failed? Wii there is generally a
:12:36. > :12:39.consensus towards a light touch regulation, which obviously failed,
:12:40. > :12:46.because we would not have had the global financial crash. In terms of
:12:47. > :12:50.the tripartite system or the Twin Peaks model, I would refer to what
:12:51. > :12:54.the former head of the FSA said in respect when he gave evidence to the
:12:55. > :12:58.select committee when I was on it, you could have tweaked the
:12:59. > :13:02.tripartite model and improved it all you could have had the current Twin
:13:03. > :13:08.Peaks model, as it is now. But nobody in the overall system was
:13:09. > :13:17.taking overall control of the financial stability. That system was
:13:18. > :13:22.set up by Gordon Brown. You were not calling for heavy regulation, no
:13:23. > :13:25.Conservatives were. There is a difference between heavy regulation
:13:26. > :13:31.and better regulation. We have called for better regulation, not
:13:32. > :13:38.necessarily more. The problem with the tripartite system is that
:13:39. > :13:49.problems fell to even three stalls... When you have three
:13:50. > :13:56.different regulators, things tend to fall between two. That was the
:13:57. > :13:59.weakness of Labour's proposal. You are shocked and appalled as
:14:00. > :14:06.everybody else by what might have happened. Deborah, are you as
:14:07. > :14:13.shocked and appalled by the report? I think it comes alongside another
:14:14. > :14:19.report about RBS and SMEs. I think the nation as a whole, the inexpert
:14:20. > :14:24.nation, is throwing its hand up and saying, what will come to life?
:14:25. > :14:29.Lawrence Tomlinson is essentially independent. If he had not asked
:14:30. > :14:34.these questions, would we have known? What else is simmering that
:14:35. > :14:42.might be uncovered to somebody's passion and investigative skills? I
:14:43. > :14:44.think he has precipitated a proper process in respect of the
:14:45. > :14:53.authorities who should look into this. He has done is a service. Why
:14:54. > :14:58.did it need him to do that? In fairness to the Business Secretary,
:14:59. > :15:06.he got him to do that. The problem is the regulators don't tend to be
:15:07. > :15:10.popular with industry practitioners. He is highly sensitive to what is
:15:11. > :15:19.going on with SMEs and he has ought to light a number of the issues. --
:15:20. > :15:25.he has brought to light. We have all seen similar anecdotal evidence as
:15:26. > :15:30.MPs. What should be the sanction? You have talked about it perhaps
:15:31. > :15:34.being unlawful. There is a question about whether civil liability
:15:35. > :15:39.attaches to this and whether what we have seen is fraudulent and
:15:40. > :15:45.criminal. In advance of the findings being delivered as a matter of fact,
:15:46. > :15:48.it would be unwise of me to start hypothesising about what should
:15:49. > :15:52.happen. But if the law has been broken in anyway, shape or form,
:15:53. > :15:58.there should be a severe sanctions indeed. Criminal sanctions? With
:15:59. > :16:04.something criminal has taken place, that should do it. We need to look
:16:05. > :16:07.forward about dealing with the problem of putting healthy
:16:08. > :16:11.businesses under, and how can the restructuring group itself do a
:16:12. > :16:15.better job so there is a win for the bank and a win for the company
:16:16. > :16:24.itself, meaning more of a chapter 11 US style restructuring. The process
:16:25. > :16:29.is very opaque. The transparency... People can't understand what is
:16:30. > :16:34.happening, partly because... People might want justice. Reign if people
:16:35. > :16:39.are breaking the law and doing criminal things and engaging in
:16:40. > :16:58.fraudulent mistake then people would expect to see them banged up. If
:16:59. > :17:01.that is what has happened. These are friends, families and local
:17:02. > :17:13.communities which are being impacted by something we are supposed to own
:17:14. > :17:18.and control and it feels wrong. Clare's Law is being rolled out
:17:19. > :17:26.across England and Wales. It was named after Clare Wood. She had met
:17:27. > :17:30.her partner on Facebook and was unaware of her history of violence
:17:31. > :17:35.against women. Hilary Fisher welcomes the new law but thinks it
:17:36. > :17:40.should go further. This enables a woman to ask the police if there has
:17:41. > :17:46.been evidence of a partner being a perpetrator in the past. Police may
:17:47. > :17:50.find no evidence even though he is a perpetrator. We are asking, if the
:17:51. > :17:55.woman has made this request and she thinks there is something wrong with
:17:56. > :17:58.the relationship, the police should flag this up, make sure they
:17:59. > :18:07.regularly visit but put her in touch with special services or she can get
:18:08. > :18:15.support and information sheet needs. Norman, does it work? -- she needs.
:18:16. > :18:21.It has worked. I went down to Wiltshire to see this in action and
:18:22. > :18:25.to talk to both the police, other agencies and victims who have been
:18:26. > :18:29.able to use this system, in order to get themselves a new start in life,
:18:30. > :18:34.away from someone who might have committed domestic violence upon
:18:35. > :18:39.them. How does it work? If you did meet somebody on Facebook or an
:18:40. > :18:45.online dating agency, you're not necessarily going to call the police
:18:46. > :18:55.and say, can you check the records? Can you do that? Are women being
:18:56. > :18:59.encouraged to do that? Women were contacting the police to say, I have
:19:00. > :19:06.heard something from a friend of mine about a suspicious activity
:19:07. > :19:12.which was undertaken. Can you check this person out? That led to a 61%
:19:13. > :19:19.disclosure rate. That included the fact there was nothing to disclose.
:19:20. > :19:24.It gave, I hope the women that contacted the police a peace of mind
:19:25. > :19:30.that they were secure or that they ought to get out. Relationship they
:19:31. > :19:40.were in. Do you think that was a good thing? There is a difficult
:19:41. > :19:43.question for the police in how much they reveal about what is
:19:44. > :19:48.allegations as opposed to convictions. We get into the guilty
:19:49. > :19:51.before proven and that is very difficult territory. It is an
:19:52. > :19:55.interesting time we live in where so many of us are building
:19:56. > :19:59.relationships by digital platforms. We do not have those references we
:20:00. > :20:03.might have if it is a family friend we meet them through work or they
:20:04. > :20:09.are at the same college. People are entering relationships with people
:20:10. > :20:12.with whom they have no connections. We can build profiles for ourselves
:20:13. > :20:19.on the Internet which are not accurate will stop what has made
:20:20. > :20:23.this more necessary is that society as a whole is recognising domestic
:20:24. > :20:29.violence as something which must be dealt with. It has to be taken
:20:30. > :20:39.seriously. In some cases life loss has occurred. It is a crime
:20:40. > :20:44.prevention. There is an issue about supporting women in a potentially
:20:45. > :20:49.violent relationship. It is not always easy. What evidence shows is
:20:50. > :20:58.that separated women are the most vulnerable. I agree with that point.
:20:59. > :21:03.We are funding 144 independent domestic violence advisors. When
:21:04. > :21:08.someone decides to separate with someone with domestic abuse
:21:09. > :21:13.tendencies, there is a support network in place for them to reform
:21:14. > :21:18.their lives. We have someone to help them stop absolutely. I entirely
:21:19. > :21:23.agree that when someone separates, it is a very crucial time. Is in
:21:24. > :21:28.that whether funding and focus should be? That is the most
:21:29. > :21:33.difficult period. If some are not resources, people should stay put.
:21:34. > :21:35.They have nowhere to go - there is no alternative. Some charities say
:21:36. > :21:42.you would be better off putting money and resources there. This does
:21:43. > :21:48.not require further resources. It is a matter for the police to make
:21:49. > :21:54.available information. From a financial point of view, if you stop
:21:55. > :22:04.one murderer or one serious assaults, it would be beneficial in
:22:05. > :22:09.financial terms. It is about funding domestic violence advisers with
:22:10. > :22:16.hotlines and so one. In most cases, abuses will not be known to the
:22:17. > :22:25.police. They have never been reported in the past. People can be
:22:26. > :22:34.repeat offenders and not have police records. Police will give
:22:35. > :22:39.information about convictions. If someone has been found not guilty,
:22:40. > :22:44.that information ought to be passed on with the proviso they are found
:22:45. > :22:54.not guilty but that it did happen. We are trying to say, this is
:22:55. > :23:02.information we had to hand. How is life in the Home Office? Very
:23:03. > :23:10.interesting. I got a wonderful brief stop it dealt with wonderful people.
:23:11. > :23:15.It is not about people who had domestic violence or rape but also
:23:16. > :23:26.appalling exploitation. I am very keen to deal with this. Are you all
:23:27. > :23:34.getting along? We are getting along fine. HG Wells says the newspaper is
:23:35. > :23:38.about distinguishing between a bicycle accident and the end of
:23:39. > :23:43.civilisation. Art for art's sake, money for God's sake. Not just a
:23:44. > :23:46.'70s pop lyric, more a mantra for Britain's creative sector. But where
:23:47. > :23:50.should that money come from - especially in a time of austerity?
:23:51. > :23:53.There is a view that the current model of state funding is bloated,
:23:54. > :23:56.London-centric and ripe for replacement by kind private backing
:23:57. > :23:59.seen in places like the United States. Equally strident voices,
:24:00. > :24:03.however, say public money is what keeps the arts vibrant and
:24:04. > :24:05.accessible. We sent our David for a stroll along the South Bank to find
:24:06. > :24:24.out more. Some of Britain 's natural treasures
:24:25. > :24:31.- cathedrals and high art. To state fund the arts or not? Whether it is
:24:32. > :24:41.no blood for a tax payer to stump up or for the arts to rely on wealthy
:24:42. > :24:46.benefactors. -- more noble. This is an experiment and was started after
:24:47. > :24:52.the war. It was not in the British tradition. Before that, Britain was
:24:53. > :24:57.the country Shakespeare, Milton and comfortable and all the rest of it.
:24:58. > :25:02.It was always the view that the state stands back from art.
:25:03. > :25:09.Shakespeare accepted funding from the Lord Chancellor of his time. It
:25:10. > :25:13.is only the state, the evidence is there are battled back something
:25:14. > :25:24.which has not yet existed. The new is where the unknown and
:25:25. > :25:27.untested... When we did War Horse, it was about people wandering about
:25:28. > :25:34.with cardboard boxes on their heads. We had no idea it would turn into a
:25:35. > :25:41.hit. The arts Council in England is facing a 5% cut in funding but is
:25:42. > :25:46.likely to receive 348 million in tax this year. Some people think it is
:25:47. > :25:51.time for others to pick up the tab. We are much richer than we have been
:25:52. > :25:57.before. There are more super wealthy people. The problem is you have arts
:25:58. > :26:04.funding through the state and it crowds out other alternatives.
:26:05. > :26:10.Whatever the rights and wrongs, it is agreed that it is probably here
:26:11. > :26:15.to stay. I see no one who will change how arts is funded. It will
:26:16. > :26:20.be too bad and unpopular. Even if the results might be better and
:26:21. > :26:23.create a more robust arts sector. More diverse sources of funding
:26:24. > :26:29.might create more creative forms of art and we will get art away from
:26:30. > :26:33.the long arm of the state. Why would you entrench on something which,
:26:34. > :26:39.from the world 's perspective, we do very well? Why wouldn't you
:26:40. > :26:42.celebrate that? I think these arguments are known very well. And
:26:43. > :26:50.we're joined now by the Conservative MP, David Ruffley. We are right in
:26:51. > :26:53.saying you are part of a group setting out a document that makes a
:26:54. > :27:03.new case for investment in the arts and culture. Is this about survival?
:27:04. > :27:10.Over the last decade we have not been sharp enough in articulating,
:27:11. > :27:20.particularly to a new generation the importance of art investment. It is
:27:21. > :27:24.about articulating those arguments. Going back to Keynes and looking at
:27:25. > :27:29.his model, in the 21st century we should not be taking too much
:27:30. > :27:43.attention as to the reason why he did or did not set up that council.
:27:44. > :27:48.What about the benefits? Do they not understand and appreciate, as you
:27:49. > :27:59.see it, the benefits of arts and culture. Where we need to do more
:28:00. > :28:04.work and get more evidence is around the public benefit which derived
:28:05. > :28:07.from the arts. In terms of educational attainment, students
:28:08. > :28:14.from low income families are more likely to get a degree. It produced
:28:15. > :28:20.cognitive abilities. It drove urban regeneration and had a positive
:28:21. > :28:24.impact on well-being. There is emerging evidence we need to gather
:28:25. > :28:29.that evidence and support Maria Miller and colleagues in government
:28:30. > :28:39.who I believe want to support the arts. Are you convinced about the
:28:40. > :28:49.benefits? It is not just an economic sector but that is not it. We are
:28:50. > :28:56.world-class. My concern is we are not looking at more diverse ways of
:28:57. > :29:02.funding. The taxpayer cannot in these tough times, we cannot rely on
:29:03. > :29:11.the taxpayer. All parts of government are being cut back. Arts
:29:12. > :29:18.and business says that only 2% of philanthropic league active
:29:19. > :29:22.individuals give to the arts. There is not a history. Onto their tax
:29:23. > :29:31.benefits for people giving so much money to the arts that do not exist
:29:32. > :29:37.here? I think that is true. I do agree with Deborah that the arts
:29:38. > :29:43.sector has sharpened its act up and realises how it can monetise with
:29:44. > :29:46.online streaming of all sorts of ways of getting money from
:29:47. > :29:51.performances. On its own, that will not do it. We need more individuals
:29:52. > :29:55.behaving like America. That is relying on people coming forward. We
:29:56. > :30:02.may see funding cut before that happens. Organisations like the
:30:03. > :30:07.National Theatre, the Royal Opera House, organisations in London which
:30:08. > :30:11.can leverage large donations, the public funding has reduced hugely. I
:30:12. > :30:15.think it is a fifth. As for the Royal Opera House. We are finding
:30:16. > :30:19.new ways to bring money into the arts. We have two began full of the
:30:20. > :30:23.American model. What happens with arms length funding, it is difficult
:30:24. > :30:27.to maintain but it is worth maintaining. You do not have the
:30:28. > :30:32.repertoire and innovation creativity driven by a select group of
:30:33. > :30:35.stakeholders. You have the ability to take strategic and longer-term
:30:36. > :30:44.decisions which are good for the arts. Investment tries the creative
:30:45. > :30:49.industries. These deliver 6% of GDP. They employ 2 billion people. 26% of
:30:50. > :30:51.their supply chain comes through the subsidised arts sector. That is a
:30:52. > :31:08.powerful argument. Up to the crash, ?0.6 billion of
:31:09. > :31:14.donations went into the arts. I would expect soon for there to be
:31:15. > :31:20.more donations privately, and then also this philanthropic gain would
:31:21. > :31:30.rise. Do you want to cut public funding? A key statistic, this year,
:31:31. > :31:35.?600 million is going into arts counselling gland. That is what it
:31:36. > :31:41.was in the last year of the Labour government. The lottery is taking up
:31:42. > :31:49.the slack in departmental funding. There is more lottery money going in
:31:50. > :31:55.than under the Labour government. Lottery money is not Government
:31:56. > :32:01.money, it is the people's money. What would you like arts funding to
:32:02. > :32:06.be? At least four percentage or five per cent, because of the benefits
:32:07. > :32:13.that it delivers. The arts deliver benefits across government agendas,
:32:14. > :32:16.from health to... But do they deliver across the board in terms of
:32:17. > :32:21.different parts of the population? There is a claim that it is London
:32:22. > :32:26.centric. There is a challenge, without doubt. Artist 's help
:32:27. > :32:34.collected in London, audiences have developed, traditionally, so you
:32:35. > :32:41.have any college G. You can look at the BBC moving to Bristol and
:32:42. > :32:44.Salford. -- so you have an ecology. Investment in the National Theatre
:32:45. > :32:55.in 's across the country, and globally. Ditto the RSC. Where would
:32:56. > :33:03.you make a saving? ?600 million goes to Arts Council England next year. I
:33:04. > :33:08.don't care whether it is taxpayer funded or not, the lottery has shot
:33:09. > :33:12.up in the last two years. We are giving less to environmental causes
:33:13. > :33:17.and more to the arts. The government has made that choice. That is what
:33:18. > :33:23.the lottery was initially intended for. But we should not remove
:33:24. > :33:33.Government responsibility to fund arts. I don't think the ceiling is
:33:34. > :33:40.falling in. Before you go, Deborah, the answer to our quiz, who chairs
:33:41. > :33:49.the all-parliamentary dance group? Is it Vince Cable, Theresa May, Sir
:33:50. > :33:55.Gerald Kaufman or Caroline Flint? I know Vince Cable loves the car and
:33:56. > :34:01.-- the tango, Gerald has a strong interest in the arts. I will say
:34:02. > :34:04.Gerald. Your powers of deduction, that might mean you get to spin
:34:05. > :34:08.around the dance floor with Sir Gerald Kaufman. Thank you for
:34:09. > :34:11.joining us. Now, let's look ahead to another
:34:12. > :34:14.busy week in politics. Tomorrow the focus will be on Holyrood as the SNP
:34:15. > :34:18.government in Scotland publish their long-awaited White Paper which will
:34:19. > :34:20.outline the case for independence. On Wednesday morning the BIS select
:34:21. > :34:24.committee will hear evidence from Vince Cable and Michael Fallon over
:34:25. > :34:30.the Royal Mail sell off, and later David Cameron and Ed Miliband will
:34:31. > :34:33.clash over the despatch box in PMQs. And on Thursday the Fresh Start
:34:34. > :34:36.Group made up of Conservative MPs including Andrea Leadsom and Chris
:34:37. > :34:38.Heaton-Harris will publish their EU Negotiating Mandate aimed at
:34:39. > :34:47.assisting David Cameron as he attempts to renegotiate the UK's
:34:48. > :34:50.relationship with Europe. I'm joined now from a chilly College
:34:51. > :35:00.Green by Tim Shipman from the Daily Mail and Laura Pitel from The Times.
:35:01. > :35:07.Welcome to you both. Tim, payday loans cup, whose victory
:35:08. > :35:11.is it? I think it is Stella Creasy's. There is an interesting
:35:12. > :35:16.debate going on between Labour and the Tories about who has responded
:35:17. > :35:19.faster, but in both cases I think you could make an argument that it
:35:20. > :35:22.is front benches against backbenchers. On the Tory side a
:35:23. > :35:28.campaigner like Robert Karlsson has been arguing for control over fuel
:35:29. > :35:34.prices, and Stella Creasy has been arguing to get to grips with the
:35:35. > :35:41.payday lending industry. It is quite telling that both frontbenchers are
:35:42. > :35:48.trying to jump on this round-robin, -- bandwagon. On the Labour Party
:35:49. > :35:55.website, Stella Creasy is listed as this on the business team. That
:35:56. > :35:59.seems under her abilities. Things might change. Laura, George Osborne
:36:00. > :36:06.denying claims on the today programme that this was a U-turn. It
:36:07. > :36:12.is? Yes. Previously it was said there was no need to impose a cap.
:36:13. > :36:16.What is interesting with George Osborne this morning was his
:36:17. > :36:21.shifting language about market. He moved slightly into Ed Miliband's
:36:22. > :36:25.territory, saying he supports the free markets but sometimes you need
:36:26. > :36:35.to intervene when they go wrong. Tim, are we seeing the Conservative
:36:36. > :36:41.part of the Government abandoning Conservative laissez faire,
:36:42. > :36:45.free-market policies? They are intervening on everything. That is
:36:46. > :36:49.politics, you might say. George Osborne would argue that he is a
:36:50. > :36:54.free marketeer, but that has to be tempered. Both parties have found
:36:55. > :36:59.out over the last decade that leaving some of these industries to
:37:00. > :37:04.their own devices is a recipe for financial disaster and political
:37:05. > :37:09.ruin. Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, Desert Island Discs. A rite
:37:10. > :37:15.of passage, you might say. What did his choice of music say? It made his
:37:16. > :37:20.advisers grown. There has been debated in Westminster about whether
:37:21. > :37:25.his choices were vetted. Some say they were so bad they could not have
:37:26. > :37:28.possibly had approval, others are saying, you should have seen what he
:37:29. > :37:34.would have chosen if we had not stepped in! It sounded more
:37:35. > :37:40.authentic Ed Miliband than a spin doctor's choice, but what did you
:37:41. > :37:44.think? One groans when you hear the South African national anthem was on
:37:45. > :37:48.there, one of my colleagues argued that was a right on choice for North
:37:49. > :37:55.London, picking Jerusalem was his attempt to placate the middle
:37:56. > :37:59.classes. But to give him credit, he is not afraid to admit he is a
:38:00. > :38:08.Boston Red Sox van before a foot all fan, same as myself. Take On Me, ,
:38:09. > :38:15.how could you fault a man who wore white trousers and dance to that? It
:38:16. > :38:19.did say something about him, indicating what he was doing in the
:38:20. > :38:24.70s and 80s. Did you learn anything new about him? Not just from the
:38:25. > :38:29.music but the interview, Desert Island Discs has a knack for making
:38:30. > :38:32.politicians go soppy and open up. That is the point. It was
:38:33. > :38:38.interesting to hear him talk candidly about his brother and the
:38:39. > :38:43.selection contest, there were noticeable size as the conversation
:38:44. > :38:47.went on. If we were to ask in an interview about those sorts of
:38:48. > :38:51.topics he would rebuff the question, but he softened up and talked about
:38:52. > :38:59.that and his family, so we had more insight. Apart from being an
:39:00. > :39:03.opportune the four PR, because they have all done it, Nick Clegg and
:39:04. > :39:08.David Cameron, but you are reminded primarily, or at least I was, about
:39:09. > :39:14.how he went up against his brother -- apart from it being an
:39:15. > :39:17.opportunity for PR. He would never get through an interview with Kirsty
:39:18. > :39:21.Young without talking about his brother, the answers were
:39:22. > :39:24.interesting. Thinking back to David Cameron's Desert Island Discs, that
:39:25. > :39:31.could almost have been written by one of those red top comp islands of
:39:32. > :39:41.joke songs. He had Perfect Circle, Tangled Up In Blue. He picked This
:39:42. > :39:47.Charming Man by the Smiths, which they regarded as outrageous and they
:39:48. > :39:50.said he was not allowed to listen any more!
:39:51. > :39:53.And joining us for the rest of the programme is the Conservative MP
:39:54. > :39:56.Steve Brine, the Labour MP Luciana Berger and the Liberal Democrat MP,
:39:57. > :39:59.Lorely Burt. Welcome to you all. Now to immigration because reports
:40:00. > :40:02.suggest that the Prime Minister wants to prevent EU migrants from
:40:03. > :40:05.claiming benefits until they've lived in the UK for a year. The
:40:06. > :40:09.Education Secretary Michael Gove says Britain needs to make sure that
:40:10. > :40:12.immigrants are coming here to work, not to take advantage of a generous
:40:13. > :40:18.welfare system. Here's what he had to say on The Andrew Marr Show
:40:19. > :40:24.yesterday. When it comes to new migrants from
:40:25. > :40:27.accession countries in the EU, we need to look properly at the benefit
:40:28. > :40:32.system to make sure people are coming here to work and contribute,
:40:33. > :40:38.not take advantage of what is rightly a generous welfare system.
:40:39. > :40:44.Steve, do you agree, would it be a good idea to extend the amount of
:40:45. > :40:50.time before immigrants can claim benefits? Absolutely. Even if it is
:40:51. > :40:54.in breach of EU law? I discussed this with the Prime Minister
:40:55. > :41:00.recently. My constituents write to me about this. I was at a street
:41:01. > :41:06.surgery in a lovely old Georgian market town, hardly a hot bed of
:41:07. > :41:11.immigration, and it was raced repeatedly as an issue. It is always
:41:12. > :41:16.the number one issue. But it might be against the law. The Prime
:41:17. > :41:21.Minister is working with European fellow leaders and he is well placed
:41:22. > :41:25.to do that, he wants to renegotiate the relationship with the EU. At the
:41:26. > :41:31.end of the day, the European Union needs to lessen. David Cameron is
:41:32. > :41:36.deadly serious. -- the European Union needs to listen. Lorely, the
:41:37. > :41:43.Liberal Democrats will not support this? All governments and Prime
:41:44. > :41:48.Minister 's are entitled to review and look up the laws relating to
:41:49. > :41:54.benefits from time to time. No problem. I think some people forget
:41:55. > :42:00.that if you take EU migrants in this country, they contribute over a
:42:01. > :42:06.third more to this country than they take out. So we have to have a
:42:07. > :42:10.balanced view. One might argue that the Lib Dems are not on the right
:42:11. > :42:14.side of the argument, as far as many voters are concerned, the point that
:42:15. > :42:19.Steve is making is that people are coming here primarily to claim
:42:20. > :42:23.benefits. Would it be better to extend the time before immigrants
:42:24. > :42:28.can claim benefits? People can't just turn up off the ferry and start
:42:29. > :42:34.claiming benefits. There are several rules that they have to comply with.
:42:35. > :42:40.Should it be longer than three months? They have to prove a link to
:42:41. > :42:44.the country. There are a number of other things. They have to
:42:45. > :42:50.demonstrate that they want to work and they are willing to work.
:42:51. > :42:55.Again, there has to be some kind of a balance. The bottom-line of it, it
:42:56. > :43:03.is more beneficial for us to have here. EU people, English people go
:43:04. > :43:08.over to the EU as well. Where did you stand? Should the Prime Minister
:43:09. > :43:14.pursue this attempt, whether or not he can, we will find out, but should
:43:15. > :43:21.he? Crewe the over whelming majority of people who come to this country
:43:22. > :43:24.do so to contribute and work. It was the shadow home affairs team and
:43:25. > :43:29.Yvette Cooper that said nine months ago that there are things we could
:43:30. > :43:33.do specifically on jobseeker's allowance, both domestic clear and
:43:34. > :43:40.we should be having in Europe. -- both domestic league and we should
:43:41. > :43:44.be having in Europe. We are not sure of the government position. You
:43:45. > :43:50.mentioned it was 12 months, reports coming out from Number Ten today six
:43:51. > :43:55.months. There is a principle here, you are saying you would back the
:43:56. > :44:02.idea in principle, six months or 12 months. Would you like 12 months? We
:44:03. > :44:08.would. And the reason... We can understand the reason, but is this
:44:09. > :44:13.just bluster and politics? From both parties, Labour and the
:44:14. > :44:20.Conservatives? EU law is EU law, you can't pick and choose. That is why I
:44:21. > :44:24.think this is a much bigger picture about our relationship as members of
:44:25. > :44:28.the EU, and without massively diverging we are coming onto that.
:44:29. > :44:33.The Prime Minister is putting something out there and is
:44:34. > :44:36.discussing with fellow leaders whether he can do this. We are
:44:37. > :44:41.trying to make it more difficult and less attract for people who come
:44:42. > :44:46.here and do not want to work. If they want to work, which many do,
:44:47. > :44:51.they are welcome, there a Visa process for Bulger Aryans who want
:44:52. > :44:54.to work. What is your reaction to the report today which says there
:44:55. > :45:00.has been no restrictions on Bulger Aryans, no application has been
:45:01. > :45:10.turned down and the Home Office shuffled their feet. Then nobody has
:45:11. > :45:20.anything to worry about. Each case is considered on its merits. Do you
:45:21. > :45:23.think we are pandering to anti-immigrant sentiment? It is
:45:24. > :45:30.important that we acknowledge there are concerns, it is not bigoted to
:45:31. > :45:34.have a conversation about it. But we need sensible policies, and this in
:45:35. > :45:38.isolation will not deal with problems of illegal immigration,
:45:39. > :45:43.issues of low skilled migration, which is probably one of the
:45:44. > :45:48.greatest challenges. One Mark Harper looked at all the factors bringing
:45:49. > :46:04.people to this country... Benefits was not a major poll. Know. But one
:46:05. > :46:09.of the major things... We are not seeing things that would work. We
:46:10. > :46:15.have seen people exploited living in overcrowded and overpriced
:46:16. > :46:18.properties. We would like to see a register of landlords. Abbey
:46:19. > :46:23.National minimum wage, people come to our country and they are not paid
:46:24. > :46:28.the National minimum wage. Immigration is down by a fifth since
:46:29. > :46:34.the general election. Net migration is not coming down. Two thirds of
:46:35. > :46:48.that figure is British people leaving this country who are coming
:46:49. > :46:52.back. Did you struggle to get to sleep last night? I may have the
:46:53. > :46:59.solution for you. Newly published today: A 400 page bill with an extra
:47:00. > :47:01.50,000 page environmental statement. Guaranteed to get your eyelids
:47:02. > :47:04.drooping before you can say, quasi-judicial process. But the
:47:05. > :47:07.Government's hybrid bill for Phase One of High Speed Two, that's the
:47:08. > :47:10.London to Birmingham part of the controversial rail project, may not
:47:11. > :47:13.give the Government pleasant dreams. Our Adam has been looking into the
:47:14. > :47:19.technical details of a rather unusual piece of legislation. The
:47:20. > :47:26.Channel Tunnel needed one in 1986. The last one was London 's Crossrail
:47:27. > :47:36.in 2005. Now a chest to require is a rare form of legislation, a hybrid
:47:37. > :47:40.Bill. It affects some private individuals like landowners and
:47:41. > :47:49.requires a lot of paperwork. The bill is about 400 pages long. The
:47:50. > :47:55.environmental statement is 150,000 pages. That is two of these. The law
:47:56. > :47:58.has been changed so it can be published in electronic format and
:47:59. > :48:05.the public has eight weeks to comment. Excuse me. At some point
:48:06. > :48:09.will be a second reading debate and vote where the House of Commons
:48:10. > :48:13.approved the project in principle. That is the moment when opponents
:48:14. > :48:19.can give it the red light. It heads to the committee room where a panel
:48:20. > :48:24.of MPs can consider the pleas of people directly affected. It is a
:48:25. > :48:30.bit like a court. There are QCs present, sometimes in weeks. With
:48:31. > :48:37.the Crossrail project, this took two and a half years. Some MPs did not
:48:38. > :48:39.see it as an honour. I have voted against 90 did not see it as an
:48:40. > :48:44.honour. I have voted against 90 detains detention of terror
:48:45. > :48:48.suspects. The telling members of the committee have voted against the
:48:49. > :48:52.Crossrail Bill. We'll so got the opportunity to spend two and a half
:48:53. > :49:02.years on the committee of this hybrid Bill. It sounds like it is
:49:03. > :49:06.quite a lot of work. It is. If all of that is inconvenienced by
:49:07. > :49:13.something like an election, not a problem, MPs can vote to carry it
:49:14. > :49:16.over to the next session. Will it ever amount to more than those boxes
:49:17. > :49:23.we saw being pushed across the roads? They are all protesting
:49:24. > :49:28.outside now. Will it ever get online? I hope so. It is really
:49:29. > :49:36.important we get on with this and get on with it as soon as we
:49:37. > :49:41.possibly can. In Japan, they introduced the bullet train in
:49:42. > :49:46.1964. In 2064, we could still be running on the same row way be
:49:47. > :49:51.introduced in the Victorian era. We need to think about not just the
:49:52. > :49:55.immediate future but the long-term future for this country and the
:49:56. > :49:59.prosperity and jobs in this country and linking up the Midlands with the
:50:00. > :50:04.South and the North with the Midlands and the South. Nothing will
:50:05. > :50:10.be more powerful to achieve that prosperity that we all want. We
:50:11. > :50:22.thought Labour were behind it as well. Will Labour back it? We have a
:50:23. > :50:31.responsibility to make sure this project is on track and within
:50:32. > :50:43.budget. There have been concerns. I support this, as does Labour. It is
:50:44. > :50:48.absolutely crucial. The North/South line leads to jobs and growth. I am
:50:49. > :50:53.sorry it has taken three and a half years. We are still having many
:50:54. > :51:06.consultations and the phase two investigation is only just launched.
:51:07. > :51:10.That pressure and scrutiny has actually made the government work
:51:11. > :51:17.hard at keeping the cost down, hasn't it? They did do a service in
:51:18. > :51:21.some ways, didn't they? The government is fading constituents
:51:22. > :51:29.money, that is what we will do. What about when high-speed two is put
:51:30. > :51:40.forward? It does not affect me I think we need to do this it is about
:51:41. > :51:46.capacity. I am interested. People say, do not back it. It is either
:51:47. > :51:52.that or investment in our part of the world. There is huge investment
:51:53. > :51:58.going into south-west rail in our part of the world. This is part of
:51:59. > :52:05.the future. You do not think it will be redundant. There is a huge
:52:06. > :52:13.capacity crisis at the moment. This is there to meet that. I am a bit
:52:14. > :52:17.confused as to what Lucianne is saying. Aren't Labour saying two
:52:18. > :52:23.separate things? Aren't they not backing it because they are worried
:52:24. > :52:30.about the cost but the Northern councils... They are quite aghast at
:52:31. > :52:34.those comments. They want it so much. There seems to be some
:52:35. > :52:41.schizophrenia with both the major parties. The Shadow Chancellor has
:52:42. > :52:51.ultimate responsibility. When this project was first put forward it was
:52:52. > :52:54.in the region of 30 billion. It is now 50 billion it is Labour
:52:55. > :52:58.amendments which will ensure if there is to be a substantial and
:52:59. > :53:06.disband or overspend, they will have to come to Parliament and present it
:53:07. > :53:16.and debate on it. What about the 40 or 50 Conservatives who might rebel
:53:17. > :53:27.it is a hugely controversial project. He has not convinced them,
:53:28. > :53:31.or anyone. When you get 1000 letters from constituents, that does impact
:53:32. > :53:36.on constituents. It is damaging to him. He is putting forward a project
:53:37. > :53:40.about the future and asking Parliament to support him. I think
:53:41. > :53:46.and hope and believe that is what happened. The majority of parliament
:53:47. > :53:52.will back him. I suspect the Laban party will back him. -- the Labour
:53:53. > :53:57.Party. Whoever is in power will need cross-party support. You are
:53:58. > :54:08.confident it will end up happening. We are supposed to have support by
:54:09. > :54:17.2017. I hope they do get control of the budget and get this plan back on
:54:18. > :54:20.track. Members of the media have compared Ed Miliband to Wallace
:54:21. > :54:24.dashed the cheese loving children's character of Wallace and Gromit
:54:25. > :54:28.fame. Yesterday, the Labour leader was happy to pile on the cheese. He
:54:29. > :54:31.appeared on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs, with some truly fromage-y
:54:32. > :54:41.music and provided a bit of an insight into himself. There is some
:54:42. > :54:51.flash photography in this film. This is a cheesy choice. It is Take On
:54:52. > :54:55.Me. I cannot understand me without understanding where I come from. My
:54:56. > :54:59.dad had a particular political outlook, which is not the same as
:55:00. > :55:07.mine. It is a big part of what inspired me.
:55:08. > :55:15.My parents loved this country. When the Daily Mail wrote, the man who
:55:16. > :55:19.hated Britain, the reason I hated that so much is because it is so
:55:20. > :55:31.much at odds with the way I think about this country.
:55:32. > :55:42.You said, David is my best friend in the world, I love him dearly. Is he
:55:43. > :55:46.still your best friend? Yes but it has been incredibly tough. She
:55:47. > :55:54.offers me protection, a lot of love and affection, whether I'm right or
:55:55. > :55:59.wrong. The difficulty for many people is the perception that here
:56:00. > :56:03.is a man heading this party who will put party loyalty before family
:56:04. > :56:09.loyalty and many people do not find that palatable. Do you get that? I
:56:10. > :56:15.understand that. I do understand that. It is hard for my family and
:56:16. > :56:20.hard for David. Very hard. I suppose I felt it was the right thing. Does
:56:21. > :56:30.it feel that things have healed? Healing.
:56:31. > :56:40.I read that you did not have the girlfriend all the way through
:56:41. > :56:46.Oxford. I was pretty square. How very honest of him to admit that.
:56:47. > :56:51.Does it surprise you that he did not have a girlfriend through Oxford? We
:56:52. > :56:57.have had reports of many women who were interested in him. He said he
:56:58. > :57:03.did not have a proper girlfriend. You could be a spin doctor. Any
:57:04. > :57:10.surprises? You said that was a good choice. Ed Miliband is never going
:57:11. > :57:16.to be, and probably never was, mystical. I am sure they didn't sit
:57:17. > :57:20.down in the office and think, what should be put together? They
:57:21. > :57:26.probably thought, let him be him. I would love to go on it and I would
:57:27. > :57:33.pick Fleetwood Mac and the Carpenters. You may get that call! I
:57:34. > :57:41.love the idea of the jumper and trousers. I had black slip on shoes
:57:42. > :57:49.with white socks. Too much information. Did you listen to it or
:57:50. > :57:56.have you heard it? I quite liked his song choice, in the main. The South
:57:57. > :58:02.African national anthem, Jerusalem, just lovely. Can you seeing any of
:58:03. > :58:09.them for us? Not right now will stop it might be the end of my political
:58:10. > :58:19.career if I did. Does it surprise you that David and Ed are still in
:58:20. > :58:24.the healing process? They are both moving in different directions. It
:58:25. > :58:28.was fairly amazing at the time. People said that was the most steely
:58:29. > :58:36.thing he had done until recently. Do you think that image will linger?
:58:37. > :58:42.The backbone? It was a brave thing to do, go against your brother and
:58:43. > :58:52.beat him for the leader. That is history now. We will not judge him
:58:53. > :58:57.on his music choices. We had Jerusalem at our wedding. On that
:58:58. > :58:58.happy and jubilant note, we will end it there. From all of us here,
:58:59. > :59:01.goodbye.