:00:38. > :00:46.After noon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. With the war -- will the
:00:47. > :00:50.war over energy prices ever end? The Prime Minister wants to reduce green
:00:51. > :00:56.levies. The government has denied it has asked the big six firms to hold
:00:57. > :01:01.their prices until 2015. Labour said it will introduce a law to freeze
:01:02. > :01:05.prices for 20 months if it wins the general election. Mr Cameron said
:01:06. > :01:08.that is not achievable. Will it be Mission impossible
:01:09. > :01:15.mission accomplished? We will be asking if our salmon's White Paper
:01:16. > :01:19.gets your vote. -- Alex Salmond. Time could be costly for the
:01:20. > :01:23.European Referendum Bill. If it doesn't go through today it may
:01:24. > :01:31.never make it to the Lords. All unsuspecting politicians, we say
:01:32. > :01:32.beware the killer question. Which year did Manchester United
:01:33. > :01:46.leave the football the? Last year. She is in good company, I have no
:01:47. > :01:52.idea. All that in the next hour. With this
:01:53. > :01:57.we have freelance journalist, former head of the SNP policy unit, Alex
:01:58. > :02:00.Bell, and Anne McElvoy from the Economist.
:02:01. > :02:06.Hands up those who want to stay at home and look after the baby. Very
:02:07. > :02:10.soon it will be easier for the mother or father to do so because
:02:11. > :02:14.the government is committed to introducing shared parental leave
:02:15. > :02:21.for new parents by April 2015. I wonder why then? Maybe the election?
:02:22. > :02:24.Surely not. The Deputy prime ministers said the new rights would
:02:25. > :02:28.cater for a growing desire by many men to play a more hands-on role
:02:29. > :02:31.when it comes to being a father and stop women feeling they have to
:02:32. > :02:40.choose between having a career or a baby.
:02:41. > :02:47.If you were to have another child is something you would avail? It
:02:48. > :02:51.depends what place we are in in terms of our work but I would like
:02:52. > :02:56.to have, and I am sure all couples would like to have, the freedom to
:02:57. > :03:01.make their own decision. It is an old-fashioned idea that the state
:03:02. > :03:04.says the dad will only take two weeks off, it will happen straight
:03:05. > :03:08.after the baby has arrived and the mother must take the remaining
:03:09. > :03:17.time. We sweeping away these old-fashioned rules so parents can
:03:18. > :03:23.make up their own mind. Not often you get an answer that clear-cut! Is
:03:24. > :03:32.this a good idea? I think it is a good idea. Many more households have
:03:33. > :03:36.two people who work and yet maternity leave arrangements have
:03:37. > :03:40.been skewed towards the mother. The way the economy is at the moment,
:03:41. > :03:46.who knows who will earn more? Who will have to go part-time? Couples
:03:47. > :03:53.need that flexibility. I do think broadly it is the right way to go.
:03:54. > :04:01.Do not think it is bizarre that he be doing it now? I would not think
:04:02. > :04:05.this is the thing to establish my power at the Cabinet table. The
:04:06. > :04:13.sentiment is our fine. But it is an upper middle-class policy for a
:04:14. > :04:21.party desperately losing support. I'm surprised you say that. The
:04:22. > :04:27.demographic is the squeezed middle. It goes further down the income sale
:04:28. > :04:33.than Alex is suggesting. -- scale. People are quite happy to balance
:04:34. > :04:40.things in a way that perhaps used to be middle-class. It is now much
:04:41. > :04:44.broader. When you actually polled voters, the people who will come
:04:45. > :04:48.back and tell you they want this are probably more likely the upper
:04:49. > :04:54.middle-class. I accept your arguments but if you are trying to
:04:55. > :04:59.chase a vote, it seems to be a funny way to go about it. I hope you're
:05:00. > :05:08.not suggesting that he only did it because Miriam told him! I think if
:05:09. > :05:16.we listen to two more -- more to Miriam than him on policy, it would
:05:17. > :05:21.be better. Older women would not want to be their daughters to be as
:05:22. > :05:25.constrained as they work. You often get that grandmother vote. Big
:05:26. > :05:35.businesses can probably cope with this. It could be a smaller for -- a
:05:36. > :05:38.problem for smaller businesses. This is a case where if you are running a
:05:39. > :05:45.small business, you will be more irked by this. You cannot just
:05:46. > :05:52.handed over. Andrew, you do Alex's job and he will do yours. You have
:05:53. > :05:57.to look at businesses, particularly those with fewer employees, and ask
:05:58. > :06:00.how they are going to cope. A lot of businesses are in that position and
:06:01. > :06:04.can cope. Now it's time for our daily quiz.
:06:05. > :06:09.The question for today is: Which of these men has the highest IQ? Boris
:06:10. > :06:16.Johnson. Nick Clegg. David Cameron. Ed Miliband. At the end of the show
:06:17. > :06:20.we'll see if anyone has the brains to answer this one. It's the Friday
:06:21. > :06:23.before the Autumn Statement, so the gloves are off in the battle over
:06:24. > :06:26.rising energy bills, with the Government and Labour both
:06:27. > :06:28.attempting to seize the initiative. Remember Labour's party conference
:06:29. > :06:34.in September when Ed Miliband shocked the pundits, pledging energy
:06:35. > :06:37.price freezes if Labour are elected? The Tories warned of Marx and market
:06:38. > :06:44.intervention, but they've had to take action. So instead of forcing a
:06:45. > :06:48.freeze, apparently they've just asked for one until the election.
:06:49. > :06:51.Although this morning, the Treasury deny this - they were just asking
:06:52. > :06:54.energy companies whether bills would come down if green taxes were
:06:55. > :06:56.scrapped. So what's behind the problem? Labour accuse the energy
:06:57. > :06:59.companies of profiteering - the average energy bill is around
:07:00. > :07:03.?1,300. But the Tories blame the previous government's green levies,
:07:04. > :07:11.which make up 8% of the average bill, and the energy companies
:07:12. > :07:14.agree. That is about ?112 per year. They point to government
:07:15. > :07:17.requirements on them to tackle climate change and fuel poverty,
:07:18. > :07:21.claiming they only make around 5% profit in total - though the profits
:07:22. > :07:24.for the power they generate sits at a very toasty 20%. The energy
:07:25. > :07:32.companies say the problem is those pesky wholesale prices. Ofgem
:07:33. > :07:40.disagrees, claiming wholesale costs have risen by less than 2% in the
:07:41. > :07:44.last year. This is what David Cameron had to
:07:45. > :07:50.say to this morning. I have said all along that I want to help households
:07:51. > :07:53.and families by getting sustainably lower energy prices. The only way
:07:54. > :07:58.that you can do that is by increasing competition and rolling
:07:59. > :08:02.back the costs of some levies on people's bills. I said that is what
:08:03. > :08:07.we are going to do. That is what we are going to do and it is a positive
:08:08. > :08:11.step forward. That is a world away from making a vague promise about
:08:12. > :08:15.something you may do in 20 months with no idea of how you do it. That
:08:16. > :08:20.is a con. We are dealing with real policy that can make a real
:08:21. > :08:24.difference. That was the Prime Minister in Vilnius. We are joined
:08:25. > :08:32.by Tom Greatrex, Shadow Energy Minister. And Stephen Fitzpatrick.
:08:33. > :08:43.Do you have a clear idea yet of what the Government is planning? No. I
:08:44. > :08:47.think we have just had a another day of confusion from the Government.
:08:48. > :08:51.They have a record of doing that over the last year or so. If the
:08:52. > :08:55.Government were to get an agreement to freeze energy prices, and to get
:08:56. > :09:08.an agreement to cut some of the green levies, that would be quite an
:09:09. > :09:12.achievement? The energy companies, a day or two after Ed Miliband's
:09:13. > :09:16.conference at which she talked about the green levies, that is something
:09:17. > :09:19.they focused the debate on and which the Government sought to respond
:09:20. > :09:26.to. But does not deal with the fundamental issues about the way the
:09:27. > :09:30.market works. The reforms which we proposed, and which Ed Miliband and
:09:31. > :09:34.Caroline Flint are talking about today, is about trying to reset that
:09:35. > :09:42.market so it is clear and transparent for consumers and for
:09:43. > :09:46.industry. What should be done? I think it has become quite a
:09:47. > :09:52.political issue. It has always been a political issue. It is much more
:09:53. > :09:55.so. We would like to see action this winter. We would like to see a
:09:56. > :10:00.greater focus on competition that will help some customers, and better
:10:01. > :10:08.regulation on the big six from Ofgem. It will help those customers
:10:09. > :10:12.on likely to switch. -- unlikely. Some of the political noises are
:10:13. > :10:17.helpful. But when we talk about things taking effect in two or three
:10:18. > :10:21.years, that is not what customers are interested in. You will not get
:10:22. > :10:27.reform of the marketplace and you will not get better regulation this
:10:28. > :10:32.side of the winter. There is nothing that would stop real reforms being
:10:33. > :10:37.implemented or a different mandate from Ofgem being announced in the
:10:38. > :10:41.Autumn Statement. That would be to intervene, not necessarily set
:10:42. > :10:46.pricing, but certainly do away with some of the profiteering from the
:10:47. > :10:50.big six. A lot of the profits are made from a relatively small number
:10:51. > :10:55.of profits, customers on the oldest tariffs. Ofgem have talked about
:10:56. > :10:59.simplifying the market. We hear these ideas from the political
:11:00. > :11:03.parties. It is great that we are talking about. But if the Government
:11:04. > :11:08.set to Ofgem, we want you to do something about overcharging today,
:11:09. > :11:12.they could figure it out. It could happen very quickly. You do not
:11:13. > :11:19.think there is the political will or the expertise? Perhaps less so the
:11:20. > :11:24.will, maybe more so the expertise. The big energy companies have done a
:11:25. > :11:28.fantastic job of convincing everybody that it is really
:11:29. > :11:32.complicated but it is not. I look at my bill and it is pretty
:11:33. > :11:36.complicated. The market is structured in a way where the big
:11:37. > :11:39.companies have found a way to make it very complicated, very difficult
:11:40. > :11:46.for us to understand what is going on. You must really regret that a
:11:47. > :11:53.Labour created this market? The ability for the big companies to
:11:54. > :12:00.integrate was lifted by John Major. You continued with it. We have seen
:12:01. > :12:05.in the last few years the extent to which it has become more of a
:12:06. > :12:11.problem. There is more and more evidence, and Ofgem have uncovered
:12:12. > :12:15.some of it, that actually this is not working. I understand it is not
:12:16. > :12:19.working but would it not give you more credibility if you put your
:12:20. > :12:28.hand up and said that during the 13 years you have encouraged the
:12:29. > :12:32.integration market. --? We reduce it from a couple of dozen 26 and we got
:12:33. > :12:35.it wrong. Now we have seen the error of our ways and we are going to
:12:36. > :12:40.change it. Have you seen the error of your ways? The evidence has
:12:41. > :12:46.mounted particularly in the last two or three years. The last election in
:12:47. > :12:50.2010, if you go back to the Labour manifesto, that made the point about
:12:51. > :12:54.Ofgem needing more powers. The evidence since then has mounted. The
:12:55. > :12:59.Government should act. We tried to amend the energy Bill to do these
:13:00. > :13:02.things. If the Government turn tomorrow and say they are going to
:13:03. > :13:12.do it, nobody would be more delighted than me. No mea culpa? The
:13:13. > :13:16.evidence is clear. The situation has happened where we have a market now
:13:17. > :13:22.that is very difficult for people. Will Labour do anything? We will do
:13:23. > :13:27.something about the way the eco-scheme works. When this comment
:13:28. > :13:31.talks about the green levies, 60% of it has been introduced by the
:13:32. > :13:38.coalition. The eco-scheme has demonstrated it is very if
:13:39. > :13:43.inefficient. You talk a lot about the need to get the market to
:13:44. > :13:46.operate better. I understand that. You also talk about the need for a
:13:47. > :13:53.price freeze to get on top of prices. Under the Labour climate
:13:54. > :14:00.change act of 2008, energy prices are specifically designed to rise by
:14:01. > :14:06.40% by 2020. It was your policy to increase energy prices. I'm just
:14:07. > :14:14.slightly puzzled that now you are not opposition, having set in motion
:14:15. > :14:20.an event which was a specific purpose of the act, to increase
:14:21. > :14:26.energy prices by 40%. You are now complaining. The purpose of the act
:14:27. > :14:32.and the purpose of the action that happened, we had a Conservative
:14:33. > :14:38.minister said yesterday it was his idea. That makes you all complicit!
:14:39. > :14:43.New generating capacity is required. You have to think how you best do
:14:44. > :14:47.that in a way that provides energy security. And you also have two
:14:48. > :14:53.minimise emissions. You have decisions to be made about how the
:14:54. > :14:57.infrastructure is renewed. Do you have an oversupply of gas, or a
:14:58. > :15:02.mixture of renewables and other forms of technology? The coalition
:15:03. > :15:06.has been in power for more than three and a half years. It has been
:15:07. > :15:12.clear for some time that the energy market in this country does not
:15:13. > :15:17.operate like a market should. It may not be a cartel but it is not a
:15:18. > :15:24.market. A cartel implies illegality and collusion. It is not a free
:15:25. > :15:29.market. Or even a market. Do you detect any sense that the Government
:15:30. > :15:38.has addressed this and knows what to do about it? They are listening, I
:15:39. > :15:43.suppose. It is a start! It is a great start. When I hear about
:15:44. > :15:48.infrastructure and I hear policies that are being announced like a
:15:49. > :15:53.price freeze at some point in the future where the price is not set or
:15:54. > :15:57.defined yet, you don't get certainty for consumers but you create
:15:58. > :16:02.uncertainty for investors. That is the problem might have got. This
:16:03. > :16:05.issue has become so political now that it looks like everybody is
:16:06. > :16:10.trying to reduce a very complex issue into a simple slogan to
:16:11. > :16:14.increase votes. That may be politics. But energy is very
:16:15. > :16:18.important. A lot of people struggle to pay their bills. The last thing
:16:19. > :16:22.anybody want is for the lights to go out. We need to focus on value for
:16:23. > :16:28.money, transparency, competition, the best way to lower bills in the
:16:29. > :16:33.long term, but it is going to take a long time. People will die this
:16:34. > :16:36.winter? This annoys me so much. Ofgem have announced a whole list of
:16:37. > :16:44.false and problems with the market that reads like... There are ten
:16:45. > :16:49.pages are problems with the market. Their solution is, energy companies
:16:50. > :16:53.can have fought tariffs and we will see where we are in 2014. Four
:16:54. > :17:00.winters. How many people will be affected?
:17:01. > :17:06.An increasingly large chunk of our electricity bills is not made up of
:17:07. > :17:12.wholesale generation, profits, green levies, it is made up of the cost of
:17:13. > :17:16.distribution. Distribution costs are regulated by Ofgem, but they are
:17:17. > :17:21.becoming a bigger and bigger part and that is because of the climate
:17:22. > :17:24.change act of 2008, you have put a lot of electricity generation in
:17:25. > :17:27.areas that are nowhere near the National Grid so we have to build
:17:28. > :17:36.new grid lines from onshore, offshore, to get there, that is a
:17:37. > :17:39.big part of the energy price rise. The network costs will go up and
:17:40. > :17:44.then they will level out. Ofgem, you have seen, last week, have used
:17:45. > :17:54.their role in terms of directing some of the costs. We moved the
:17:55. > :18:01.generation, you said. You did. You have got the Dorset array which is a
:18:02. > :18:05.huge offshore Park which is being done. To connect back to the
:18:06. > :18:09.National Grid, it will have to go through the new Forest. How much
:18:10. > :18:17.will that cost? And in Scotland, the Bewdley line that took ten years.
:18:18. > :18:21.That is a consequence of Labour, Conservative, and Lib Dem policy. It
:18:22. > :18:27.is a consequence of having your new generation capacity are partly from
:18:28. > :18:30.Newton -- renewables, and you do that in the best places where you
:18:31. > :18:33.get the most efficiency. You would be arguing if you put them on sites
:18:34. > :18:36.where all the most efficiency. You would be arguing if you put them on
:18:37. > :18:41.sites were all power stations were, why are you building at there? I
:18:42. > :18:47.would be arguing whatever you do. Your thoughts on energy?
:18:48. > :18:51.If you look down the table in Europe Britain sits in the middle in terms
:18:52. > :18:56.of its energy costs but you wouldn't think that to listen to the debate.
:18:57. > :19:03.Not if you strip out the government taxation and VAT. Our wholesale
:19:04. > :19:11.prices are among the highest in Europe. Nonetheless, I have lived in
:19:12. > :19:15.Germany and other countries, they simply accept the green argument at
:19:16. > :19:20.the moment more than we do did a soon-to-be one of the problems that
:19:21. > :19:24.has been the policy with both parties, the focus was on Green
:19:25. > :19:30.parties, if you looked at the Conservatives, they were vying to be
:19:31. > :19:33.greener with each other. You have a kind of consequence, I know there
:19:34. > :19:40.are many other things, you have made good points about the way the market
:19:41. > :19:47.is, it is missed Richard. You wanted to sign up to this, and now you have
:19:48. > :19:51.the consequences. Whatever we do we have got power stations coming to
:19:52. > :19:58.the end of their lives, some you can extend for a little bit, which
:19:59. > :20:01.source of power do you use? Your message is very different to the
:20:02. > :20:08.green message before the election. I know we will be back to this.
:20:09. > :20:13.This is why would voters lose faith in politicians, it is not that
:20:14. > :20:18.complicated, it has been apparent for a long time, fuel poverty
:20:19. > :20:21.campaigners have been making this transparent, nobody can pretend they
:20:22. > :20:24.didn't know, they couldn't regulate that system. There are other
:20:25. > :20:27.examples of a generation of other industries in Britain at the moment
:20:28. > :20:32.which do that. Nor can anyone pretend this is essentially a
:20:33. > :20:38.regressive tax on poor people to pay for the lecture is politicians
:20:39. > :20:43.compose. We will be back on energy prices on
:20:44. > :20:47.the Autumn Statement live here on BBC Two on Thursday. We start at
:20:48. > :20:51.10:45am because the Chancellor has bought the Autumn Statement
:20:52. > :20:55.forward. He has got a lot to talk about. Maybe by Thursday he will
:20:56. > :21:01.have worked out what he will do. Thank you both of you for coming in.
:21:02. > :21:05.The debate over Scotland's future, the week when Alex Salmond publishes
:21:06. > :21:08.white paper on is that -- independence, George Osborne claimed
:21:09. > :21:19.it would cost the Scots thousands of pounds each, David Cameron was
:21:20. > :21:25.accused of being a big fairty. Here is a flavour of the debate.
:21:26. > :21:34.This white paper is the most detailed blueprint that any people
:21:35. > :21:36.have ever been offered anywhere in the world. As a basis for becoming
:21:37. > :21:51.an independent country. If the 650 pages we have here, there
:21:52. > :21:51.is just one page devoted to Scotland's financial position,
:21:52. > :22:06.economic position, in the future. Within an hour of this publication
:22:07. > :22:10.Alistair Darling described it as being totally ridiculous, not of any
:22:11. > :22:15.worth whatsoever, which amazed me because I must congratulate that man
:22:16. > :22:22.on speed reading, because via my estimation that is 3000 words per
:22:23. > :22:27.minute. Can the first Minister tell me whether his government, his
:22:28. > :22:32.ministers or his officials have received any feedback from any other
:22:33. > :22:38.European Union country about Scotland's membership of the
:22:39. > :22:41.European Union? Today in Brussels the European commission spokesman
:22:42. > :22:47.repeated their view that new countries have to apply from
:22:48. > :22:54.scratch. The treaty provides some clear articles when it comes to the
:22:55. > :22:56.need for new third country to apply to the European Union if they want
:22:57. > :23:10.to join. Well he stop being pathetic? I am
:23:11. > :23:15.enjoying the debate we are having now.
:23:16. > :23:19.Independence gives us the opportunity to make choices, to
:23:20. > :23:29.spend less on weapons of mass destruction, and more on educating
:23:30. > :23:33.our children. I am reassured when I look at the questions and Anne said
:23:34. > :23:40.that on page 564 we will still be allowed his" add we are going to
:23:41. > :23:44.have the same time zones. -- allowed to speak English. We are still going
:23:45. > :23:54.to join the Eurovision Song contest. Joining us now from Glasgow, home of
:23:55. > :24:04.the Commonwealth games next year, John Curtice, profession of politics
:24:05. > :24:07.at the University of Strathclyde. Wellcome to the programme. We have
:24:08. > :24:11.had the white paper for a couple of days. It is not long for a
:24:12. > :24:17.prospective but give us your thoughts as the dust begins to
:24:18. > :24:22.settle, when this great debate this. There are two aspects we should look
:24:23. > :24:27.at, the first is what difference has made to the toing and froing between
:24:28. > :24:32.the parties, who is arguing about what? Although it has made some
:24:33. > :24:38.difference, in particular simply by laying out what claimed to be a
:24:39. > :24:45.detailed perspective, one of the things they are able to do is save
:24:46. > :24:55.to the no side where is your covenant? What happens to Scotland
:24:56. > :24:57.if they decide to vote no? The truth is the Conservatives and the Labour
:24:58. > :25:01.Party are still trying to work out what they might wish to propose in
:25:02. > :25:06.the way of more devolution for Scotland, and then there is the
:25:07. > :25:10.question of whether or not they agree. The truth is the party is not
:25:11. > :25:15.going to get anywhere near to sorting this out until the spring of
:25:16. > :25:20.next year. That has left a clear hole. The second thing is at least
:25:21. > :25:27.they have come up with an iconic policy, but simply illustrates why
:25:28. > :25:31.they think independence would be Scotland economically stronger, the
:25:32. > :25:35.childcare policy designed to get more women into work and overcome
:25:36. > :25:39.some of the demographic disadvantages in Scotland would
:25:40. > :25:44.otherwise suffer. So far as the big debate is concerned, one also
:25:45. > :25:49.emerges -- what also emerges is the degree to which the SNP's version of
:25:50. > :25:53.independence is one of continuing collaboration with the rest of the
:25:54. > :25:58.UK, and is reliant on the goodwill of the European Union. The problem
:25:59. > :26:03.is indeed Scotland itself might want to continue to use the pound as part
:26:04. > :26:09.of monetary union, it might still want to be in the same energy
:26:10. > :26:11.market, it may wish to remain in the European Union, but the trouble is
:26:12. > :26:17.these and other things are not simply in the SNP's gift and when it
:26:18. > :26:25.comes to the claim of the no side this still leaves an awful lot of
:26:26. > :26:29.uncertainty. Difficult for the yes I do back because it is not clear what
:26:30. > :26:33.is going to happen until negotiations take place. Some
:26:34. > :26:36.progress but still some clear problems for the yes side even
:26:37. > :26:43.having made up their vision. A lot of what is in the white paper
:26:44. > :26:49.is the sort of thing you would really expect in a general election
:26:50. > :26:54.manifesto, rather than a referendum about the future of a 300-year-old
:26:55. > :26:57.union which is a geopolitical decision, whereas the white paper
:26:58. > :27:04.talks about scrapping the bedroom tax, more free childcare, Holyrood
:27:05. > :27:07.has the power right now to do that, give out free to air if it wants.
:27:08. > :27:13.Other things about higher minimum wage, better pensions. These are
:27:14. > :27:18.things that are normally in general election manifestoes. Is that the
:27:19. > :27:22.strategy the SNP is using to fight this referendum?
:27:23. > :27:26.There are two aspects, the first reason the SNP are doing it is
:27:27. > :27:29.they'll wanting to try and illustrate how if Scotland became
:27:30. > :27:33.independent they believe they could do things that are more appropriate
:27:34. > :27:39.to Scotland's needs and aspirations and there before -- and therefore
:27:40. > :27:43.governed the country more effectively. The second thing is the
:27:44. > :27:47.belief at least, widespread in Scotland, and common inside the SNP,
:27:48. > :27:54.that actually people 's policy preferences in Scotland, Scotland is
:27:55. > :27:56.simply more left-wing than England, because she doesn't vote for
:27:57. > :28:01.Conservative MPs in the way people do south of the border. In truth,
:28:02. > :28:06.the power of that argument is easily exaggerated. Scotland is a little
:28:07. > :28:13.more left-wing but not that much. The problems with the Conservative
:28:14. > :28:17.party is not the people on the right in Scotland, but they will not vote
:28:18. > :28:20.for the Conservatives. You can find plenty of evidence that people don't
:28:21. > :28:24.like that -- bedroom tax, difficult to find that attitude persuades
:28:25. > :28:29.people to vote for independence. These are politicians with a certain
:28:30. > :28:33.agenda who wish to achieve certain things who are hoping to persuade
:28:34. > :28:38.the Scottish public to view the debate they would like to view it.
:28:39. > :28:41.Whether they would succeed is debatable. The crucial issue, the
:28:42. > :28:46.thing that seems to matter most, is whether or not they and their
:28:47. > :28:51.country will be economically better off. Although it might be argued the
:28:52. > :28:54.white paper contains rather optimistic assumptions about
:28:55. > :28:58.Scotland's public finances, even against the backdrop of those
:28:59. > :29:03.assumptions, the white paper admits that in the short run at least an
:29:04. > :29:05.independent Scotland would be running the public sector deficit
:29:06. > :29:10.and what actually you would struggle to find is very much indeed in the
:29:11. > :29:16.way of tax cut is, spending increases, and in the short run
:29:17. > :29:18.would clearly say to people if you vote for independence you will be
:29:19. > :29:29.better off pretty quickly. But other promises there are in the long run.
:29:30. > :29:33.Final question, it is clearly it is a left of centre pitch for votes,
:29:34. > :29:38.more government spending, welfare. You think that fits in with the
:29:39. > :29:43.prevailing Scottish political culture. Am I right in thinking it
:29:44. > :29:48.is also particularly pitch for the West of Scotland, the Labour West of
:29:49. > :29:52.Scotland, where the referendum will be won or lost.
:29:53. > :29:57.It is certainly true of the three Unionist parties in Scotland, it is
:29:58. > :30:05.the Labour Party support that is most likely to vote yes, albeit only
:30:06. > :30:10.10%, 15%. It is also true people who are less well off soon-to-be more
:30:11. > :30:15.willing to vote for independence and one can vote -- understand why the
:30:16. > :30:18.strategy is going in this direction. The disadvantage is at the end of
:30:19. > :30:24.the day is they need to create broad coalition, a broader coalition man
:30:25. > :30:28.exists at the moment, according to any of the opinion polls, and the
:30:29. > :30:40.potentials disadvantage is the narrow their appeal. Thank you very
:30:41. > :30:48.much. Are you happy with how the launch went? It was a fantastically
:30:49. > :30:57.successful day. Those big events are nightmares for politicians. It is
:30:58. > :31:01.all very well, these generalised remarks about the document
:31:02. > :31:08.containing apes, buts and maybes. But nobody has found a substantial
:31:09. > :31:13.error. That is another triumph. It was meant to enter all of the
:31:14. > :31:18.questions but it has left a lot of major questions unanswered, or at
:31:19. > :31:21.least there is an argument. The need for Scotland to reapply for
:31:22. > :31:27.membership of the European Union, that is definitely an unanswered
:31:28. > :31:33.question. The White Paper act it was not unanswered. But we know there is
:31:34. > :31:37.definitely a matter of controversy. And the issue of the currency. If
:31:38. > :31:43.what remains of the United Kingdom says, we are not doing a currency
:31:44. > :31:47.union with you, what happens? I do not think there is anything more
:31:48. > :31:49.doubtful connected to the Scottish Government position on Europe than
:31:50. > :31:57.you can find in the British government connection to Europe. We
:31:58. > :32:01.are promised a referendum in 2017. We don't know what the renegotiate
:32:02. > :32:06.would be. We do not know if David Cameron will honour his word. You
:32:07. > :32:13.have to accept that some stuff is beyond hard and fast politics. The
:32:14. > :32:19.White Paper incest and claims that it is not an issue, that Scotland
:32:20. > :32:24.will just automatically seamlessly remain a member of the European
:32:25. > :32:28.Union? If on the morning of the 19th there is a Yes vote, there is 18
:32:29. > :32:33.months until actual independence. I think, and indeed the words we are
:32:34. > :32:40.fired from Europe suggests that within those 18 months, a transition
:32:41. > :32:43.would be made. You would have to get the agreement of all 28 members to
:32:44. > :32:49.do this. Spain is obsessed with Catalunya. I think the Spanish Prime
:32:50. > :32:55.Minister was referring to a little local problem. When decisions come
:32:56. > :33:03.to be made in Europe, I think Angela Merkel baby a better source to go
:33:04. > :33:09.to. May be a better source to go to. It seems to me that you're living in
:33:10. > :33:16.Clyde Kunkel and if you think you can have independence, keep all the
:33:17. > :33:23.oil how have submarines out of Scotland... If only that was an
:33:24. > :33:30.accurate representation of what has been set. If there is a Yes vote on
:33:31. > :33:33.the 19th of September, if the money markets make -- wake up and our
:33:34. > :33:36.doubtful about the status of UK debt because they do not know what will
:33:37. > :33:40.be divided between England and Scotland, the price of UK debt will
:33:41. > :33:44.increase. That is elementary economics. There is an imperative
:33:45. > :33:49.for London to settle this problem quite quickly. There is no
:33:50. > :33:54.suggestion there would not be a trade-off of assets. So if you do
:33:55. > :34:02.not get the Sterling, you will not take the debt? I don't think we
:34:03. > :34:08.would ever be in that situation. The people who hold the debt would not
:34:09. > :34:12.know which debt they are holding. Are you saying that if you don't get
:34:13. > :34:19.sterling, you will not take your share of the national debt? What I
:34:20. > :34:24.am saying is there is no chance we will not get sterling. That is
:34:25. > :34:34.typical of the White Paper. That would be my worry about the
:34:35. > :34:38.approach. I am concentrated on the fiscal gap. I still find it an
:34:39. > :34:42.assumption in the treatment of the public finances after independence
:34:43. > :34:49.in the event of a Yes vote, which does not seem to reflect what other
:34:50. > :34:54.economists say is a problem. I think what happens is, unless you return
:34:55. > :34:57.to a kind of economics that I have not heard really since the John
:34:58. > :35:02.Smith era, where your answer to everything seems to be a gap, he put
:35:03. > :35:06.more state money into it, some people really believe this will
:35:07. > :35:14.happen. I think a lot of people will doubt it. Very briefly, Alex? You
:35:15. > :35:17.are arguing that if you have the pluses and minuses of a full
:35:18. > :35:21.economic system, you can find the money for better services by having
:35:22. > :35:31.more advantageous taxes. We are going to leave it there. It can only
:35:32. > :35:34.get better. Politicians are a necessary evil. Governments are
:35:35. > :35:40.there to uphold the rights of the people. Sounds like common sense to
:35:41. > :35:43.me. But, in the 18th Century, those were revolutionary ideas. One man,
:35:44. > :35:47.Thomas Paine, took those ideas from humble beginnings in the south of
:35:48. > :35:50.England, across an ocean to the New World and inspired a Revolution. In
:35:51. > :35:53.the latest in our series on great political thinkers, Giles went to
:35:54. > :35:55.meet Liberal Democrat MP, Norman Baker, to examine the legacy of Tom
:35:56. > :36:16.Paine. There cannot be that many political
:36:17. > :36:22.philosophers that end up with a beer named after them. But they like Tom
:36:23. > :36:27.Paine here because he lived here in Lewes, alongside New York and Paris.
:36:28. > :36:30.The local MP likes and not just because he was a resident, but
:36:31. > :36:38.because its heady mix of reason, rights and justice is very much to
:36:39. > :36:42.his political taste. Tom Paine was sent to Lewis as a customs and
:36:43. > :36:49.excise man. It seems apt to meet outside the house he made his own
:36:50. > :36:53.first six years. I admired Thomas Paine tremendously. He stood for
:36:54. > :36:59.what he believed in. He would not bend to the prevailing wind. He
:37:00. > :37:04.stood for rights and justice. Plain argument and common sense. Doctor
:37:05. > :37:10.Elizabeth Fraser explains what that an -- common-sense actually was. He
:37:11. > :37:14.was a settlement of the world. An inspirational concept for people who
:37:15. > :37:19.want to be free of nation states. His theory is a theory of rights.
:37:20. > :37:22.And the theory of rights he bequeathed to us is basically
:37:23. > :37:28.another one that we have in our human rights institutions. And in
:37:29. > :37:34.his book, Agrarian Justice, he described the importance of having
:37:35. > :37:42.social insurance, pensions for people. The town of Lewis has always
:37:43. > :37:47.had a character that made it a perfect match with Tom Paine. It has
:37:48. > :37:53.always been a bolshie place, which I like about it. It is always
:37:54. > :38:04.challenged the establishment. The king was checked when the first
:38:05. > :38:07.Parliament was initiated. And with almost local logic, Thomas Paine
:38:08. > :38:17.thinks politics has a very limited role. For him, politics and
:38:18. > :38:22.government has one role, to uphold the rights of individuals. It has
:38:23. > :38:24.got no business anywhere else. Here we are at this fantastic bowling
:38:25. > :38:31.green which has been here for centuries. Tom Paine would have
:38:32. > :38:39.bowled from here. He was a member. This very spot? It could be this
:38:40. > :38:44.very spot. What is Tom Paine telling us in his work? I think he is
:38:45. > :38:49.telling us that we should base what we do on freethinking, reason, and
:38:50. > :38:55.respect the individual. Don't be hemmed in by the tramlines of
:38:56. > :39:00.established orthodoxy. Excellent shot! Does he get into trouble for
:39:01. > :39:07.saying this? Yes, because most people would bend and go with the
:39:08. > :39:12.flow. He doesn't. He ended up in a pauper, just six people at his
:39:13. > :39:20.burial. I think you won that one. I think that is bang on. His ideas
:39:21. > :39:24.inspired revolution and a constitution in America, and later
:39:25. > :39:28.in France, where he was so involved he was even elected to the
:39:29. > :39:34.Assembly. But relentless focus on rights has its drawbacks. By the
:39:35. > :39:38.Rights of Man he definitely meant the rights of men. And feminist
:39:39. > :39:42.rights have been a problem theoretically in politics ever
:39:43. > :39:45.since. There is also just a more general problem with the idea of
:39:46. > :39:49.rights which is that it treats us as individuals, it can be seen to put
:39:50. > :39:54.this into competition with one another. It can be seen to lead to a
:39:55. > :39:59.litigious society. And Thomas Paine is accused of having ignored
:40:00. > :40:09.community, the relationships between us. But in the town pub where Tom
:40:10. > :40:14.Paine drank and debated, there is an argument which still resonates
:40:15. > :40:20.today. It is hugely relevant. He was very modern. He was perhaps an then.
:40:21. > :40:26.But he did not like governments. He called them a necessary evil at
:40:27. > :40:30.best, intolerable at worst. He wanted to make sure policy was
:40:31. > :40:36.framed towards the individual. He was suspicious of unelected bodies.
:40:37. > :40:45.House of Lords. The monarchy. Here is to Tom Paine. Cheers. We will
:40:46. > :40:49.talk to Norman Baker in a minute. First we are going to go live to the
:40:50. > :40:54.Central lobby in the House of Commons, where they have been
:40:55. > :40:58.debating the European Referendum Bill spearheaded by James Wharton.
:40:59. > :41:03.He joins us now. There are developments. What is happening? We
:41:04. > :41:08.have just had a division. We have come to the last group of
:41:09. > :41:11.amendments, the slowing tactics being used by the Labour Party and
:41:12. > :41:15.the Liberal Democrats from going through. There will probably be
:41:16. > :41:19.another couple of divisions, then we move into third Reading. If we get
:41:20. > :41:23.through third reading, that means it will have passed all of its House of
:41:24. > :41:28.Commons stages, a significant development. It is something that
:41:29. > :41:31.when we set out on this path, many commentators said would never
:41:32. > :41:38.happen. Get the impression that despite the to derail your bill,
:41:39. > :41:42.from the tone of your voice you sound reasonably optimistic that he
:41:43. > :41:47.will come out of today the winner? Well, I hope so. We're not there
:41:48. > :41:52.yet. We are making good progress. We have had day after day after day of
:41:53. > :41:56.sitting. We have had many days in the committee. My Conservative Party
:41:57. > :42:01.colleagues have been disciplined and worked very hard to get us to this
:42:02. > :42:04.stage. I think we can get it through the Commons. That would be very
:42:05. > :42:10.significant. Many people thought it could not be done. If we can, we are
:42:11. > :42:14.a significant step closer to letting Britain decide on our future in the
:42:15. > :42:20.European Union. That is a good thing. It has been quite a hurdle to
:42:21. > :42:24.get this far. It is not quite over yet. Is it not fair to say that the
:42:25. > :42:29.hurdle in the House of Lords is higher? It will be difficult when it
:42:30. > :42:32.gets to the House of Lords. It is a different problem for a different
:42:33. > :42:39.day. I have been focused on the stages. We have run up against real
:42:40. > :42:44.determined opposition. I will do everything I can to get this bill
:42:45. > :42:47.through today. I will do whatever I can to influence the weather House
:42:48. > :42:51.of Lords acts when it comes to them. Members of the House of Lords will
:42:52. > :42:55.have to give serious thought to what they are doing before they do
:42:56. > :42:58.anything to frustrate this. It is a bill which gives people a
:42:59. > :43:04.referendum. For an unelected house to deny the British people a say on
:43:05. > :43:07.a bill passed by the House of Commons, would put them in a
:43:08. > :43:14.difficult position. Thank you. We will follow that. You
:43:15. > :43:17.need to get back into the chamber. That is the latest on how the
:43:18. > :43:26.European Referendum Bill is going. It looks like it will go through the
:43:27. > :43:32.Commons. It faces a tough hurdle in the House of Lords. Let's go back to
:43:33. > :43:35.Thomas Paine. He has been influential on political thought on
:43:36. > :43:41.both sides of the Atlantic. Norman Baker joins me from Brighton. I
:43:42. > :43:47.suppose a lot of what Thomas Paine stood for, which was controversial
:43:48. > :43:53.at the time, is now just an accepted part of political values, would be
:43:54. > :43:58.right? Some of it certainly is. He was ahead of his time when it came
:43:59. > :44:02.to democracy and elected government. He challenged unelected bodies. Who
:44:03. > :44:06.put you there and how can we get rid of you? That was pretty
:44:07. > :44:10.revolutionary for the 18th century. We still have unelected bodies in
:44:11. > :44:19.this country, including the House of Lords. I think you also was prepared
:44:20. > :44:25.to challenge the mainstream opinion -- he was also prepared to
:44:26. > :44:30.challenge. That sometimes is necessary. We end up with the
:44:31. > :44:33.situation sometimes where people go with the flow because they are
:44:34. > :44:36.frightened to speak out. The consequence of that is that
:44:37. > :44:44.injustice could be allowed to surface. Tom Paine was very keen on
:44:45. > :44:48.individual rights, that was his belief, the core of his belief. He
:44:49. > :44:52.was suspicious of big government, particularly when he got in North
:44:53. > :44:56.America, because big comment meant the colonial government. There was a
:44:57. > :45:01.huge argument with the founding fathers as to exactly what powers
:45:02. > :45:05.the new government should have. They were all suspicious. The world has
:45:06. > :45:11.become more collectivist since the days of Thomas Paine, including your
:45:12. > :45:15.own party? We are wary of big government, too. One of the
:45:16. > :45:19.principles my party espouses is the idea you do not concentrate too much
:45:20. > :45:25.power in one Particular Place or in the hands of one person. That is why
:45:26. > :45:36.we like the idea of devolution from the EU to nation states. That is
:45:37. > :45:39.still government. There is a great belief in the power
:45:40. > :45:45.of government. There is not a problem, your party activists don't
:45:46. > :45:50.see they could not be resolved with more government. That's what almost
:45:51. > :45:53.every motion before your party conference is about.
:45:54. > :46:03.We are removing power from government in certain circumstances.
:46:04. > :46:12.The example with not proceeding with ID cards, we have been keen to roll
:46:13. > :46:22.back so the state does not intervene. He was right to support
:46:23. > :46:28.the American Revolution, we can agree on that. The French revolution
:46:29. > :46:37.was necessary, but unfortunately it took a nasty turn. The fact is the
:46:38. > :46:51.corrupt monarchy, undoubtedly that was something to be challenged.
:46:52. > :46:55.Are you a supporter of him? The weak point came at the end with the
:46:56. > :46:58.French Revolution. It is not just something that goes a bit wrong, it
:46:59. > :47:01.is something where you have a theory of the state which have terrible
:47:02. > :47:04.injustices that need to be addressed, you go down the route of
:47:05. > :47:11.reform and consistently push for reform, but you get into trouble and
:47:12. > :47:21.make those of unpopular doing so or do you assume? You ministry goes in
:47:22. > :47:25.different ways and in the American Revolution it seems to work out
:47:26. > :47:30.rather well. I don't think it does the French Revolution and that makes
:47:31. > :47:34.me was goal. And with the American Revolution, maybe the only example
:47:35. > :47:39.in the past 300 years of a successful, full-scale revolution. I
:47:40. > :47:44.am glad we can agree with representation we should also have
:47:45. > :47:49.taxation. To go back to this discussion, yes it is, but the
:47:50. > :47:53.reason why people like him as he has a wild West element. He is the lone
:47:54. > :47:59.hero, the figure who walks through history, happens to be in the right
:48:00. > :48:02.spot, and does wonderful things which we like to think we would all
:48:03. > :48:06.do. Where is probably we would be more cowardly.
:48:07. > :48:14.There is a real problem which is about the relationships which is
:48:15. > :48:17.what happens afterwards. This lack of awareness in its philosophy of
:48:18. > :48:23.how communities which is going to be, one of the big themes, we have
:48:24. > :48:28.lots of rights, we can take them off to Europe, how we get along as
:48:29. > :48:36.communities is a more complex problem. And he could be the
:48:37. > :48:42.revolutionary he was because of the printed book, it was widely
:48:43. > :48:46.accessible, and now I wonder whether we are faced with the technology we
:48:47. > :48:53.currently have which is taking over, taking the place of
:48:54. > :48:58.government. At one of the leading inspirations for the American
:48:59. > :49:01.Revolution wasn't Scotland. Not that you are counting. 44% of the
:49:02. > :49:08.founding fathers of the American declaration of Independence had
:49:09. > :49:17.Scottish, or as they call it bolsters scotch backgrounds. --
:49:18. > :49:23.Ulster Scotch. Helen heard the words at school -- Scottish by Barak
:49:24. > :49:32.hockey club, can you answer five questions on sport? Who is the
:49:33. > :49:35.women's Wimbledon tennis championship I know Andy Murray did
:49:36. > :49:39.for us, that is the most important thing. He will go bigger and bigger.
:49:40. > :49:48.You are the FA Cup holders at the moment? Manchester United because it
:49:49. > :49:56.is my favourite club. Who is the England rugby union captain? What
:49:57. > :50:00.about hockey? Which it did Manchester United leave the football
:50:01. > :50:08.league. These are hard questions. Last year. 92. Final one, which
:50:09. > :50:21.Paralympian one most gold medals at London 2012? Dave Weir. It was the
:50:22. > :50:27.restraining swimmer, she won eight. Poor Helen! I wouldn't have got any
:50:28. > :50:29.of them either and would have been proud of it. The dusty halls of
:50:30. > :50:32.Westminster are littered with the bodies of politicians who have
:50:33. > :50:35.failed those tests on popular culture. Previous sports minister
:50:36. > :50:39.Richard Caborn also flunked the sports quiz. The PM and the London
:50:40. > :50:42.Mayor both zeroed tests on the price of milk and bread. Mr Cameron's
:50:43. > :50:45.excuse was that he had a posh bread-maker! Good answer. And let's
:50:46. > :50:48.not talk about that Gordon Brown "Arctic Monkey" moment. So does it
:50:49. > :50:52.matter? Do we really care if our politicians can't tell their Arsenal
:50:53. > :50:55.from their Elbow? Arsenal, by the way, is an Association Football
:50:56. > :50:59.Club. Elbow is something you normally hear on Radio 2. The
:51:00. > :51:04.inquisitor-in-chief on many of these questions is the broadcaster, Nick
:51:05. > :51:11.Ferrari, from LBC. He joins us now. It may be a kind of Romanesque
:51:12. > :51:14.sport, but does it really matter? It matters hugely. These people seek to
:51:15. > :51:16.tell it how to live our lives whether through financial
:51:17. > :51:22.responsible at sea, where our children should be schooled, whether
:51:23. > :51:26.they should be in Europe, sends our children is to war, these are the
:51:27. > :51:30.decisions they take. If they don't know the price of bread or who won
:51:31. > :51:37.the FA Cup they should be exposed. You need to know who won the FA Cup
:51:38. > :51:42.for you declare war on Iraq? You need to know you are in touch with
:51:43. > :51:46.the ordinary policy. If you want to appear to be relevant and when their
:51:47. > :51:51.votes and not to preach and be granted it would be artful to well
:51:52. > :52:01.cost. I don't know who won the FA Cup? You are not an elected
:52:02. > :52:07.politician. You hold them to task, that is your job. I don't have to
:52:08. > :52:12.vote for you. I vote for a man to lead this country first although I
:52:13. > :52:18.do! I think if you speak on a sports
:52:19. > :52:24.brief that is the problem. There are a number of very basic questions, I
:52:25. > :52:27.remember a Labour culture Minister who couldn't remember the last bit
:52:28. > :52:31.of culture they had seen. That is a problem because you have gone out
:52:32. > :52:36.there, just basic preparation. If you get a question, if anyone ask me
:52:37. > :52:39.about cricket, I would die in a whole but it is very nifty say there
:52:40. > :52:45.is a basic number of things you should know, Wimbledon, the FA Cup,
:52:46. > :52:48.and it is part of the discussion, people are having this discussion,
:52:49. > :52:54.if you put yourself to one side you are out of the picture. All the
:52:55. > :52:59.politicians I liked were cricket fans. There is something about
:53:00. > :53:04.following test matches which makes for a good, in touch politician. The
:53:05. > :53:09.tip for a minister in a situation like that is everybody prefers a
:53:10. > :53:14.body goes I don't know. I haven't a clue, you tell me.
:53:15. > :53:18.In the sports issue, sometimes the politicians get hoist by their own
:53:19. > :53:21.petard because they make, football, they hardly ever talk about
:53:22. > :53:27.cricket, but the more public school they are, the more they want to talk
:53:28. > :53:33.about football and they were on the terraces with a pork pie which is
:53:34. > :53:40.all nonsense. One former prime ministers said he liked watching
:53:41. > :53:45.about on the terraces before he was even born. If they have the answers
:53:46. > :53:48.to everything, if all our schools were fantastic, if we had full
:53:49. > :53:52.deployment, I don't care you don't know the price of milk but it is not
:53:53. > :54:00.like that so be like one of us. Is it true Nick Clegg, is he your
:54:01. > :54:12.new best friend? He is my new best broadcasting body. -- friend. I
:54:13. > :54:17.count you as my print friend. He has never asked to see the questions and
:54:18. > :54:25.he has literally had people report their membership on air, he takes it
:54:26. > :54:36.on the chin. He did get the Arsenal back for. I wish I hadn't said that.
:54:37. > :54:41.Now to our quiz, the question was which of these men has the highest
:54:42. > :54:51.IQ? Boris Johnson, Nick Clegg, David Cameron, Ed Miliband. Does anybody
:54:52. > :55:03.know? Johnson. Ed Miliband. Nick Clegg. You are all wrong, or you
:55:04. > :55:12.could all be right. We don't know. You tricked us! Wanted you make
:55:13. > :55:17.about Boris Johnson's remarks? I detested them intensely. I don't
:55:18. > :55:21.care what he has to say about grammar schools, but to start
:55:22. > :55:25.segmenting the public by IQ, the rock and awful lot of clever fools
:55:26. > :55:32.at Westminster and elsewhere, it does not set a good turn. Why did he
:55:33. > :55:36.do it? Because we are all talking about it. He is a cat thrower. You
:55:37. > :55:50.throw a cat amongst the pigeons, Andrew. I think he wanted to
:55:51. > :55:55.establish himself as top --. Deeply offensive, a ridiculous character.
:55:56. > :56:12.He is almost like Berlusconi in his extremes and I find it astonishing
:56:13. > :56:15.he is taken so seriously. I take on board the point it was clumsy but to
:56:16. > :56:20.say some people are smart and some people are not, we need to help
:56:21. > :56:24.those -- help those who are not smart and they will not enjoy the
:56:25. > :56:35.economic boom. That is not quite what he said. I did read the speech
:56:36. > :56:43.cleverly, closely, not cleverly! When you are measuring at what other
:56:44. > :56:50.circumstances. He said it was almost like talking about dogs, treating
:56:51. > :56:56.humans like a species. I agree it was clumsy. We have got to accept
:56:57. > :57:02.some people are brighter than others. Was scripted or does he go
:57:03. > :57:05.off piste? It is very much scripted. You know when he
:57:06. > :57:12.freelances, you can kind of tell, remain the it was the Thatcher
:57:13. > :57:15.memorial speech... A critique of equality, if there was a clear
:57:16. > :57:20.political boat and difference, there is a man saying I don't buy into
:57:21. > :57:28.equality. He is conservative, doesn't have to. Is he playing for
:57:29. > :57:32.position in a Tory defeat? That is why a quality is being set up a mate
:57:33. > :57:41.is not like anybody is delivering a quality anyway. Wouldn't Holly read
:57:42. > :57:46.be brightened up -- Holyrood. If it had, who is the Scottish Johnson?
:57:47. > :57:51.Thankfully, so far, he hasn't escaped. Into the public domain. But
:57:52. > :57:55.if Joyce Johnson wants to be leader of the Tory party can he do it
:57:56. > :58:01.before the referendum? It would be such a help. You think it would be a
:58:02. > :58:05.help to your case. Wall the health is the Tories being five points
:58:06. > :58:10.ahead in September of next year in the national polls. Since I have
:58:11. > :58:13.been in London for 24 hours, do you think London wants to win the
:58:14. > :58:18.referendum, I get the impression from Downing Street they are not
:58:19. > :58:21.entirely convinced? I wouldn't put Alistair Carmichael and Alison
:58:22. > :58:29.Darling as the head of my campaign -- Alistair Darling. Why choose
:58:30. > :58:34.those two? We have to do simile in a Scottish
:58:35. > :58:38.constituency -- someone. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The
:58:39. > :58:42.One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One
:58:43. > :58:45.on Sunday with the Sunday Politics. I'll be talking to Yvette Cooper, do
:58:46. > :58:51.join me then. Bye bye.