:00:38. > :00:42.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Has the government
:00:43. > :00:45.stolen Labour's thunder over energy? A number of leading energy companies
:00:46. > :00:48.have promised to reduce recent increases to domestic fuel bills
:00:49. > :00:52.after the government announced cuts to the green levies they face.
:00:53. > :00:57.Ministers say they believe ?50 can be taken off the average annual
:00:58. > :01:01.bill. David Cameron's in Beijing, stepping up our ties with China. But
:01:02. > :01:07.is he marching too much to the Chinese tune? It's only three days
:01:08. > :01:14.till the Autumn statement. What Christmas goodies will George
:01:15. > :01:17.Osborne have up his sleeve? And it's only 521 days till the General
:01:18. > :01:26.Election! Could the end of coalition government get messy?
:01:27. > :01:32.All that in the next hour. With us for the whole programme today is the
:01:33. > :01:35.former Home Office and Foreign Office Minister, Liberal Democrat
:01:36. > :01:43.MP, Jeremy Browne. Welcome to the programme. Good afternoon. Now,
:01:44. > :01:47.first this morning, let's talk about China because that's where the Prime
:01:48. > :01:51.Minister is. Writing in a newspaper ahead of his visit, Mr Cameron had
:01:52. > :01:55.this message. " There is no country in the Western world more open to
:01:56. > :01:58.Chinese investment, more able to meet the demands of Chinese
:01:59. > :02:02.consumers, or more willing to make the case for economic openess in the
:02:03. > :02:09.G8, the G20 and the European Union. ". Pretty clear. And this is what he
:02:10. > :02:13.had to say to the BBC's Nick Robinson earlier today. We have a
:02:14. > :02:16.strong relationship between Britain and China including human rights
:02:17. > :02:20.dialogue. We are one of the few countries to have that relationship
:02:21. > :02:23.with China but very much top of the list only in China is making sure we
:02:24. > :02:30.secure those British jobs at home and British investment to help
:02:31. > :02:34.achieve our economic growth. Is he selling our souls of the Chinese? I
:02:35. > :02:38.agree with every new said. The biggest fact of life in the world
:02:39. > :02:42.today is the rise of China, the rise of Asia more generally, I think it
:02:43. > :02:47.will completely dominate everything that we do in government terms for
:02:48. > :02:51.the next 50 years in this country. I read an article, I think it is in
:02:52. > :02:56.the Guardian, Simon Jenkins, a few weeks ago, one of the worst I have
:02:57. > :02:59.ever read. What it said was David Cameron shouldn't waste of time
:03:00. > :03:03.going to China, he should be concentrating entirely on domestic
:03:04. > :03:07.policy but China is increasingly domestic policy because if we are
:03:08. > :03:11.concerned about the future of our economy, our education system, our
:03:12. > :03:15.deficit, all of these are tied up with the rise of Asia. With all due
:03:16. > :03:18.respect, that wasn't quite the question I asked, because many
:03:19. > :03:23.people apart from Simon Jenkins would agree that that is where the
:03:24. > :03:26.investment comes from. But should we be selling our soul in the sense
:03:27. > :03:30.that many critics say he's giving in he has capitulated on human rights
:03:31. > :03:35.after the to-do over posing with the Dalai llama which seemed to cause a
:03:36. > :03:39.big problem. It's more concentrated than that. I don't think we should
:03:40. > :03:42.be selling our soul, is the short answer, but I do think there was a
:03:43. > :03:47.danger with some of these jamborees that we take loads of business
:03:48. > :03:52.people on a plane and a few government ministers. Cronies?
:03:53. > :03:56.Important business people but we feel we have ticked the box and done
:03:57. > :04:00.it the whole point of the racial job I think with China and other Asian
:04:01. > :04:04.countries is about weaving them into everything we do in terms of how we
:04:05. > :04:09.think about international politics, the future of the economy. But we
:04:10. > :04:13.should at the same time, have the self-respect to stand up for our own
:04:14. > :04:16.values, I don't think anybody in the world should tell the elected Prime
:04:17. > :04:21.Minister this country who he can or cannot meet. I'm not saying we
:04:22. > :04:25.should cave in Folsom we should have confidence in our own values. And we
:04:26. > :04:30.shouldn't see the relationship with countries like China as just a
:04:31. > :04:33.transactional relationship that we do a bit, and then they do a bit
:04:34. > :04:37.back. We have to think much more in the integrated way, the way we would
:04:38. > :04:42.with the French and the Germans and the Americans, about how to interact
:04:43. > :04:47.with Asian countries on a daily basis, not every three years. Human
:04:48. > :04:50.rights isn't going to be raised in a meaningful way on this trip.
:04:51. > :04:54.Universal values have been set aside for the greater good. I think the
:04:55. > :05:01.Prime Minister was right to meet the Dalai Lama. I think... It did result
:05:02. > :05:04.in a problem. I don't think the primaries should be dictated to by
:05:05. > :05:09.foreign governments but we have to see the relationship in the round.
:05:10. > :05:11.And we have to be aware that China is already the second biggest
:05:12. > :05:17.economy in the world and will overtake the Americans. It isn't
:05:18. > :05:21.wise or, in my view, polite to spend the whole time lecturing them and
:05:22. > :05:26.expecting them to listen to us. It doesn't work either. Also, we have
:05:27. > :05:31.to be courteous to the countries we deal with and respectful of them
:05:32. > :05:35.whilst, at the same time course having self-respect for ourselves.
:05:36. > :05:39.It's perfectly possible to have a rounded relationship which puts
:05:40. > :05:43.human rights on the list of concerns but, at the same time, we have an
:05:44. > :05:47.economic and political situation into related. You have dealt with
:05:48. > :05:56.the Chinese for them what are they like? You have a famous picture we
:05:57. > :06:03.have shown. Any opportunity, not just to see you of course, but the
:06:04. > :06:06.pandas. It was amazing. I loved meeting that panda. What did he say
:06:07. > :06:11.about human rights? He loved his carrot, and he's got it all over his
:06:12. > :06:17.belly. You look more pleased than he does. It was a very funny situation
:06:18. > :06:27.to find myself in. What are the Chinese like? They are. . Pretty
:06:28. > :06:31.hot-headed. In flexible. In their thinking for them when they come to
:06:32. > :06:36.negotiating, and discussing the issues with other countries, but I
:06:37. > :06:39.think the trap we fall into sometimes is thinking that the
:06:40. > :06:43.Chinese are not thinking deeply about the future of world affairs. I
:06:44. > :06:46.think they are very interested in what they can learn from us, from
:06:47. > :06:50.other leading countries like the Germans, and we shouldn't be so
:06:51. > :06:54.arrogant as to assume we can't learn anything from them either. Let's
:06:55. > :06:58.leave it there. And the Panda. Now it's time for our daily quiz. Not
:06:59. > :07:01.completely unrelated. The question for today is what culinary delight
:07:02. > :07:05.was David Cameron served on his current trip to China? Was it: A)
:07:06. > :07:13.Roasted duck heads. B) Bamboo fungus. C) Chicken feet.
:07:14. > :07:17.D) Sweet and sour sea horse. They all sound and look delicious, don't
:07:18. > :07:20.they? At the end of the show Jeremy will give us the correct answer. He
:07:21. > :07:22.has and we have them all. The Chancellor is due to deliver his
:07:23. > :07:26.Autumn Statement on Thursday, updating us on the state of the
:07:27. > :07:32.nation's finances and setting out his tax and spending plans for the
:07:33. > :07:35.future. -- he has, we have them all. Speaking to the BBC yesterday,
:07:36. > :07:38.George Osborne said the UK economy was on the right track and denied
:07:39. > :07:41.that his policies were creating a housing bubble. His opposite number,
:07:42. > :07:44.Ed Balls, however, warned against over-confidence in the recovery.
:07:45. > :07:51.Here's a bit of what they both had to say. The economic planners
:07:52. > :07:56.working and recovery is underway. In the Autumn statement, I will say the
:07:57. > :08:00.job is not yet done. We have got to make sure we go on taking the
:08:01. > :08:04.difficult decisions to secure that recovery. And we also want a
:08:05. > :08:07.responsible recovery. We want to learn from the mistakes of the past
:08:08. > :08:11.and don't see a re-emergence of some of those problems in the financial
:08:12. > :08:15.system which brought this country to its knees. On housing, specifically,
:08:16. > :08:19.what are the Bank of England and I say is this not a housing bubble at
:08:20. > :08:21.the moment, that we want to make sure one doesn't develop and that's
:08:22. > :08:27.why it wasn't just the Bank of England, at myself and the bank
:08:28. > :08:30.governor working together. One of these schemes, which has been
:08:31. > :08:33.underpinning mortgage lending in financial markets, we are now going
:08:34. > :08:38.to focus on small business lending because they are not only the
:08:39. > :08:44.lifeblood of the economy. I think you see as working together, the
:08:45. > :08:47.Bank of England, the Treasury, to make sure we do not repeat the
:08:48. > :08:53.mistakes of the past and monitor the economy, swap housing booms before
:08:54. > :08:59.they emerge, and let's be clear, as of today, the Bank of England agreed
:09:00. > :09:03.this not a housing boom. It's good that finally we are seeing some
:09:04. > :09:06.growth but from a very low base, for families in our country, it's not a
:09:07. > :09:11.recovery because living standards are falling month by month. If
:09:12. > :09:15.George boasts about a recovery, which may be there for people in the
:09:16. > :09:18.city, but for most people is not there at all, I fear it will make
:09:19. > :09:22.you look even more out of touch. George Osborne and Ed Balls. With us
:09:23. > :09:24.now is the former Labour Chairman of the Treasury Select Committee, John
:09:25. > :09:29.McFall. And the former Defence Secretary, the Conservative MP, Liam
:09:30. > :09:33.Fox. Welcome to both of you. It's going to be a big week. The economy
:09:34. > :09:36.will take centre stage, as it has done over the last few years.
:09:37. > :09:41.Actually, now, it's all looking pretty good. In fact, some
:09:42. > :09:45.economists say the UK is projected to be public the fastest-growing
:09:46. > :09:50.economy in the developed world. It's not surprising that George Osborne
:09:51. > :09:56.says is looking good, but is this the right type of recovery? In his
:09:57. > :10:03.October 2011 budget, he said he did not want a debt fuelled economy. He
:10:04. > :10:10.did not want city bonuses, and he did not want other excesses. Now, if
:10:11. > :10:16.you look at the economy just now, Mark Carney said three quarters of
:10:17. > :10:19.the growth next year will come from increasing consumer spending and
:10:20. > :10:24.debt. So we actually have a debt fuelled recovery and that isn't good
:10:25. > :10:28.for the longer term. We will talk about the type of recovery in a
:10:29. > :10:32.moment. Cynics would save you talked about growth, Ed Balls talked about
:10:33. > :10:36.nothing else but getting growth back into the economy when it's back, and
:10:37. > :10:41.the projections are it's going to increase faster than the forecast
:10:42. > :10:45.said and, from that growth, there will be an economic recovery. What
:10:46. > :10:50.are you complaining about? Actually, the economy fell so much that the
:10:51. > :10:55.normal experience when the economy recovers its growth has increased
:10:56. > :10:59.quite a bit, but what type of growth are we having? It's a joyless
:11:00. > :11:06.growth, unemployment now was still higher than when the government came
:11:07. > :11:12.in and because of his policies, it took off 1.5% of GDP every year so,
:11:13. > :11:18.in many ways, it was three years of waste. We don't know whether it was
:11:19. > :11:22.the Chancellor's policies, it could've been longer if Labour had
:11:23. > :11:25.been in arguably but that's not the issue of the type of recovery. Just
:11:26. > :11:31.before you get to your point of view, it is to to say, actually, it
:11:32. > :11:34.is consumer spending, what people are worried about is a housing
:11:35. > :11:38.bubble, we will return to exactly the sort of conditions that resulted
:11:39. > :11:42.and exacerbated the result of a financial crash. I don't think we
:11:43. > :11:46.necessarily well but we should be guarded about that danger. We should
:11:47. > :11:51.try to make sure that we don't. Just to pick up on John's point for the
:11:52. > :11:57.unemployment levels are lower than when the government came into
:11:58. > :12:02.office. Youth unemployment? The government was rolling almost ?450
:12:03. > :12:05.million every day. It was completely disastrous and we had to restore
:12:06. > :12:10.some sanity to the government. That was as a result of a financial
:12:11. > :12:14.crash, to be fair. What we're doing now, slowly but surely, is getting
:12:15. > :12:16.the economic situation and the government finances back on their
:12:17. > :12:22.feet but there's a long way to go, so no one must think the job has
:12:23. > :12:26.been done. Are those finances being fixed question mark the deficit is
:12:27. > :12:30.still extremely high. If you take the figures George Osborne used
:12:31. > :12:34.himself in 2010 and 11, he is postponing all the austerity he
:12:35. > :12:37.really couldn't do for them the finances are not fixed, they are
:12:38. > :12:42.better and the deficit is lower, but it still extremely high. I don't
:12:43. > :12:46.want to see the Chancellor and the government as a whole talking about
:12:47. > :12:49.the whole situation as if it has been sorted. We are out of the woods
:12:50. > :12:53.and every thing is fine and dandy. We are growing, but as a
:12:54. > :12:57.prerequisite for sustained recovery in this country and thought at the
:12:58. > :13:00.public finances, but we are still warrant a colossal amount of money
:13:01. > :13:05.and have a lot of hard decisions in front of us. Actually, Liam Fox, you
:13:06. > :13:09.will talk about austerity more in the autumn statement. It's going to
:13:10. > :13:12.go on for years and years and years and, despite this growth, there's
:13:13. > :13:17.nothing for people to look forward to for the there's a lot for people
:13:18. > :13:23.to look forward to, 1 million public sector jobs created. It's nonsense,
:13:24. > :13:27.clearly the public finances are improving. But we still are spending
:13:28. > :13:32.a lot more money than we are aiming at a country. Until we get back into
:13:33. > :13:36.balance, we will have to continue to tighten our belts, continue downward
:13:37. > :13:40.pressure on public expenditure, and on the deficit. How much further
:13:41. > :13:45.would you shrink public spending and the size of the state? It is an
:13:46. > :13:49.arbitrary debate, but if you think of when we were at the early 2000s,
:13:50. > :13:58.it was a reasonably sustained position. Labour increased public
:13:59. > :14:02.spending. Up to 52% of GDP. This government is still running off a
:14:03. > :14:08.lot of money over the parliament. Of course, and I think it still
:14:09. > :14:13.borrowing a lot. We are still ring too much money. We would like to
:14:14. > :14:18.sing deficit come down faster. -- borrowing too much money. But we are
:14:19. > :14:21.making progress. We're talking about the elimination of the deficit in
:14:22. > :14:23.this country within five years, which is infinitely better than the
:14:24. > :14:29.performances in, double countries in Europe. And there would have to be
:14:30. > :14:36.tax rises as one of spending cuts. There. As the economy grows, what do
:14:37. > :14:40.you do with the extra money? Put it into deficit reduction, some of it
:14:41. > :14:45.into increased spending? I would like to see us continuing downward
:14:46. > :14:48.pressure on the deficit, the most important thing. And then tax cuts
:14:49. > :14:54.because ultimately, interest rates are going to rise, and if we want to
:14:55. > :14:58.protect people from an increase in mortgage rates, we have to see the
:14:59. > :15:02.tax pressure come down. Can we afford tax cuts in the foreseeable
:15:03. > :15:08.future at any stage? Well, we can, but my greatest majority -- priority
:15:09. > :15:13.would be reducing the deficit. If you look at marriage tax cuts and
:15:14. > :15:19.meals for schoolchildren, that is a dealer the two coalition parties are
:15:20. > :15:24.done. ?1.5 billion. Is that really affordable at a time when austerity
:15:25. > :15:27.is going to rain, the finances aren't fixed, and the Lib Dems are
:15:28. > :15:35.throwing out these little gambits to the public before the finance
:15:36. > :15:38.meetings? I think both parties of government are doing that and have
:15:39. > :15:42.to look at how they continue to bear down on the deficit. Some targeted
:15:43. > :15:45.tax cuts are possible. We have cut income tax for people on low and
:15:46. > :15:51.middle incomes by raising the threshold to ?10,000, and that is an
:15:52. > :15:56.important tax cut that benefits 25 million people in work, but what the
:15:57. > :16:01.Government cannot do is, as I say, let it head down, is the end money
:16:02. > :16:05.as if we are out of the woods. Let's talk about the cost of living
:16:06. > :16:09.crisis, Liam Fox, and I will come to you in response to this, John
:16:10. > :16:14.McFall, but the Tories have been playing catch-up, they have had to
:16:15. > :16:22.move onto Labour territory, who have dominated the agenda on the cost of
:16:23. > :16:24.living crisis. I, Ed Miliband's speech at the Labour Party
:16:25. > :16:29.conference got considerable political momentum. -- I think. The
:16:30. > :16:32.question is, what do you do when you find people are finding it difficult
:16:33. > :16:37.to make ends meet because, for various reasons, prices have risen
:16:38. > :16:41.faster than wages in recent years? My answer would be to not take so
:16:42. > :16:44.much money out of earnings in the first place. Government should not
:16:45. > :16:49.be taking so much of people's income. Government needs to control
:16:50. > :16:54.spending so it is not pushing hard working people into more hardship by
:16:55. > :16:59.taxing them. In terms of the cost of living, they are doing, to some
:17:00. > :17:02.extent, the Tories, responding in what they would claim is a more
:17:03. > :17:08.effective way than Labour's suggestion. In general, they are and
:17:09. > :17:14.string what has been raised by Ed Miliband. To adapt Mrs Thatcher's
:17:15. > :17:21.phrase, you turn if you want to. I am first in the queue for U-turn
:17:22. > :17:25.every time on payday loans, energy, so this government are not leading,
:17:26. > :17:29.they are following. We need leadership year flood is, and what
:17:30. > :17:36.we will get is another bout of PR from George Osborne. -- we need
:17:37. > :17:39.leadership here. Debt and deficit reduction at two completely separate
:17:40. > :17:45.things. Courtesy of Fraser Nelson, he says that in the 13 years of
:17:46. > :17:51.Labour government, it added ?319 billion, any five years of this
:17:52. > :17:55.Government it will add ?465 billion, so let's get real when we talk about
:17:56. > :18:00.debt and deficit reduction. John is that the government have added a
:18:01. > :18:03.colossal amount of money to the overall national debt, but the
:18:04. > :18:08.reason for that is we inherited such a massive deficit. I do not member
:18:09. > :18:14.Labour saying they wanted to cut the deficit faster than that. Come on,
:18:15. > :18:20.it is not... You are saying Labour as saying they would borrow more.
:18:21. > :18:26.Yeah, they want to borrow more. Labour gave you growth in 2010. You
:18:27. > :18:31.do not know if that would have continued. Is it true that Labour
:18:32. > :18:36.would spend more, use any savings from the deficit to spend? Alistair
:18:37. > :18:42.Darling said at the Labour target in 2010, and George Osborne and company
:18:43. > :18:49.said, look, we are going to square the debt by 2015, and they have not
:18:50. > :18:55.got anywhere near it. He would have halved the deficit by 2015. There is
:18:56. > :18:59.not a single hard-headed decision that has been made in the House of
:19:00. > :19:03.Commons in the last three years to get more efficient, low spending
:19:04. > :19:08.that Labour has not opposed. But give them credit for one thing, Ed
:19:09. > :19:12.Miliband has set the pace with his speech and his idea on energy
:19:13. > :19:15.prices. The difficulty the Government has, when Ed Miliband
:19:16. > :19:19.comes up with an idea like that, even an economic league illiterate
:19:20. > :19:23.idea, is that the Government seems to be unsure about whether to
:19:24. > :19:28.ridicule it or match it. The worst is to do both, and the Government
:19:29. > :19:32.has got to, if you like, get a sense of its direction and priorities, and
:19:33. > :19:37.not be driven to respond to every bad idea of Ed Miliband's, because
:19:38. > :19:40.that is the danger Gordon Brown got into, and every time George Osborne
:19:41. > :19:44.as Shadow Chancellor came up with an idea, Gordon Brown seemed to think
:19:45. > :19:50.his main priority was to cancel it out. That will be politics for you!
:19:51. > :19:53.You can be too tactical if you are not careful. One of the things
:19:54. > :19:59.people will be worried about is that good news in a broader sense, Labour
:20:00. > :20:03.want to focus on cost of living, Government want to focus on the
:20:04. > :20:06.bigger economic picture, but what if the economy is overstimulated, the
:20:07. > :20:12.pressure to put up interest rates will be overwhelming, wanted?
:20:13. > :20:17.Interest rates will rise. Not before the next election. It looks like it
:20:18. > :20:21.is a bit off here and in the United States, but they are historically
:20:22. > :20:25.low, way below normal, and the question is, when they do start to
:20:26. > :20:30.rise, what can the Government best do to minimise that and protect
:20:31. > :20:34.people? First of all, it is getting control of borrowing, making the
:20:35. > :20:38.pressure for rising interest rates less, but making sure that the tax
:20:39. > :20:43.burden is falling so that people are not being hit twice. What do you
:20:44. > :20:51.think about the married couple's tax break and free school meals? It is a
:20:52. > :20:55.good idea, but I would have postponed it until later. I think we
:20:56. > :20:59.need to make sure the deficit is tackled. Something we have not
:21:00. > :21:03.mentioned, the deficit means we have debt interest to repay, and next
:21:04. > :21:07.year that debt interest is bigger than the education budget. That is
:21:08. > :21:11.not acceptable, spending more money servicing debt than on education.
:21:12. > :21:17.George Osborne said he would avoid that. We are bringing it down,
:21:18. > :21:22.Labour would put it back up. Our interest is ?1 billion per week,
:21:23. > :21:29.just interest alone. I am glad I do not have to paid! You do, that is
:21:30. > :21:33.the point! John McFall, the problem for Labour is that the people do not
:21:34. > :21:37.trust you, whatever you say or do in terms of finger wagging, they do not
:21:38. > :21:42.trust you to run the economy. Well, that is the challenge for labour,
:21:43. > :21:46.and Labour lost the argument at the beginning of 2010 when we allowed a
:21:47. > :21:50.false statement to be made that the UK was like Greece and elsewhere,
:21:51. > :21:56.and the issue now in terms of interest rates, Lee made the point,
:21:57. > :22:02.globally we have a savings glut. There are not enough investments to
:22:03. > :22:05.match the savings that are there, and this is an opportunity for the
:22:06. > :22:08.Chancellor to make sure we have an investment strategy, because
:22:09. > :22:15.business investment is lower this year than it was last year. What
:22:16. > :22:19.would you like to see? One thing. I want to see the deficit pressure
:22:20. > :22:23.continued outwards. I agree with that. I will add to it that I also
:22:24. > :22:29.think we should do more and continue to do more people on low and middle
:22:30. > :22:33.incomes. We have got used to coalition government in this country
:22:34. > :22:37.now, the deals, the squabbles and the patching things up, but time
:22:38. > :22:41.flies when you are having fun, and it will all be over in two years or
:22:42. > :22:45.less, which has got people thinking about what the end will be like. To
:22:46. > :22:48.find out if parting really will be such sweet sorrow, Adam has been
:22:49. > :22:57.looking at some countries where coalition make-ups and break-ups are
:22:58. > :23:02.part of everyday life. # Time to say goodbye...
:23:03. > :23:09.This beautiful friendship will come to an end in just 521 days' time,
:23:10. > :23:10.when the next general election is held and the coalition will be
:23:11. > :23:21.unwound. Some of Whitehall's finest minds are
:23:22. > :23:24.wondering what that will be like here at a think tank, the Institute
:23:25. > :23:29.of the and, along with some international commentators, who have
:23:30. > :23:33.seen plenty of endings, happy and unhappy. -- the Institute for
:23:34. > :23:39.government. First of all, Germany, which has had 18 coalitions since
:23:40. > :23:45.1949. For the time being, the most important lesson is for the junior
:23:46. > :23:51.partner, because in the last election, the Liberals, not the Lib
:23:52. > :23:57.Dems in Germany, the Liberals, they paid a very high price for being in
:23:58. > :24:02.the coalition, because they did not stick to their philosophies, and
:24:03. > :24:05.their voters said, you sold everything that you promised to us
:24:06. > :24:07.just to stay in power. They took a terrible defeat in the September
:24:08. > :24:10.elections. Philosophies, and their voters said, you sold everything
:24:11. > :24:12.that you promised to us just to stay in power. They took a terrible
:24:13. > :24:14.defeat in the September elections. In Ireland, several coalitions have
:24:15. > :24:17.collapsed, and the lesson from there is all about party discipline. In
:24:18. > :24:18.Ireland, several coalitions have collapsed, and the lesson from there
:24:19. > :24:22.is all about party discipline. Backbenchers backbenchers they get
:24:23. > :24:27.very worried they get very worried about their seats, individually and
:24:28. > :24:33.collectively. You need to instil confidence in the backbenchers that
:24:34. > :24:36.the best thing to do is stay in government, deliver on the programme
:24:37. > :24:44.for government, that is hugely important. Although we are unlikely
:24:45. > :24:49.to follow Sweden, where four parties and their coalitions are thinking
:24:50. > :24:54.about the next one. We have managed to create pre-election pacts, a
:24:55. > :25:00.common manifesto, four parties creating a common manifesto before
:25:01. > :25:08.the elections, and we won into 2006 and were re-elected in 2010.
:25:09. > :25:14.So no matter what language your coalition is in, the message seems
:25:15. > :25:16.to be, weirdly, the most important thing about breaking up is sticking
:25:17. > :25:32.together or as long as possible. We are joined now for the rest of
:25:33. > :25:36.the programme by energy Mr Michael Fallon and, from the Institute of
:25:37. > :25:42.Government, by Peter Riddle. Is there a theme to coalitions ending,
:25:43. > :25:49.or nothing at all? Oh, there are themes, and that film which you
:25:50. > :25:53.showed, based on the meeting we had last week, they all say, if you
:25:54. > :26:01.break of a coalition early, if you are the junior partner, you get
:26:02. > :26:04.punished, invariably. Both sides? More likely the junior partner, the
:26:05. > :26:11.one who was breaking up. But there is a common pattern as an election
:26:12. > :26:18.approaches, politicians will revert to electoral type. You need a system
:26:19. > :26:20.which is flexible enough to accommodate them working together on
:26:21. > :26:24.the immediate problems of government, but also recognising
:26:25. > :26:28.they are competing as parties, not standing as a coalition but
:26:29. > :26:32.competing as parties for their plans beyond. It is a mixture of
:26:33. > :26:36.recognising the party system, but also having a system which allows
:26:37. > :26:41.them to govern together on immediate problems, and in a sense they are
:26:42. > :26:46.advocating breaking the coalition up. Wrong, anyone who does that will
:26:47. > :26:51.get punished, that is the invariable message. You are not wanted was
:26:52. > :26:55.advocating coalition, but do you agree that in Germany the Liberals,
:26:56. > :26:58.they were wiped out, weren't they, because people thought they had sold
:26:59. > :27:03.out to the bigger partner? Well, there may be a number of reasons why
:27:04. > :27:07.they were wiped out, and we have to be mindful of that. I agree with
:27:08. > :27:10.what Peter said, and the one thing I take exception to a bit was the
:27:11. > :27:16.introduction about the squabbling and bickering in the coalition. Has
:27:17. > :27:20.that not happened? It has, but to no greater degree than as happened in
:27:21. > :27:24.single party governments. If you remember Gordon Brown and Cabinet
:27:25. > :27:29.ministers resigning and calling on him to go, if you think about how
:27:30. > :27:33.Margaret Thatcher was deposed, John Major, all parties, as they get near
:27:34. > :27:36.a general election, whether in government on their own or with
:27:37. > :27:41.another party, inevitably they look more to the future, but we are paid
:27:42. > :27:45.to govern on a day-to-day basis in the interests of the country, and
:27:46. > :27:50.that is what we need to get on with. But tribal loyalty will win out. The
:27:51. > :27:54.coalition will not be on the ballot paper, and it is right the Liberal
:27:55. > :27:58.Democrats and the Conservatives put forward their ideas for 2015-20, but
:27:59. > :28:03.that does not stop us getting on with trying to run the country
:28:04. > :28:08.sensibly in 2014. But will you sacrifice seats for, as you would
:28:09. > :28:13.put it, the coalition? I hope not, we will have to have a vote and find
:28:14. > :28:16.out! My hope is that people will believe that it is perfectly
:28:17. > :28:19.possible to have an enlightened, generous spirited Liberal party that
:28:20. > :28:23.believes in us having sane economic management, and that the combination
:28:24. > :28:28.can be attracted to another people for us to do well at general
:28:29. > :28:33.election, we will find out. Do recognise that description, Michael
:28:34. > :28:36.Fallon? On a personal level, I think coalition works extremely well,
:28:37. > :28:40.dealing with the deficit, sticking to one economic policy, and that is
:28:41. > :28:44.why we have a lower interest rates, and I do not think there is
:28:45. > :28:51.squabbling and Pickering. What about backbenchers? Perhaps, you see that
:28:52. > :28:53.occasionally, but even with our own, just as much as the Liberal
:28:54. > :28:58.Democrats with theirs. In the heart of government, I have very cordial
:28:59. > :29:02.relations with Vince Cable and with Ed Davey, both Liberal Democrats. We
:29:03. > :29:07.get on very well. What will happen between now and the election, as you
:29:08. > :29:10.are defending seats yourselves and putting forward a manifesto that
:29:11. > :29:14.will look, I presume, very different to Jeremy and his colleagues? The
:29:15. > :29:18.evidence from Peter, and he will speak for himself, is that we will
:29:19. > :29:22.have to keep focusing on big things, we will have to keep going and
:29:23. > :29:26.deficit reduction, making sure the economic recovery is sustainable and
:29:27. > :29:30.well-balanced, pushing on with our reforms to education and welfare,
:29:31. > :29:34.but I suspect, as we get nearer to the election, both parties will be
:29:35. > :29:39.looking to the future, and you are going to get more positioning and a
:29:40. > :29:44.clear indication of what a straightforward majority
:29:45. > :29:49.Conservative government would do. We all get the impression everybody is
:29:50. > :29:52.looking now to try and position themselves in terms of the Lib Dems
:29:53. > :29:59.and the Conservatives, but not much will get done. What gets done it
:30:00. > :30:01.tends to be new things. A lot of legislation in this parliament is
:30:02. > :30:07.now being implemented. Health, universal credit, a lot of the new
:30:08. > :30:12.legislation, always the final year of Parliament is when there isn't
:30:13. > :30:15.much bigger legislation. Things will happen but there won't be massive
:30:16. > :30:21.new initiatives. The focus will shift. The interesting point Michael
:30:22. > :30:26.made if it's in both the Tories and the Lib Dem interest to contain the
:30:27. > :30:29.argument. Don't squabble too much over the current, and therefore get
:30:30. > :30:34.the tone right and the balance between that and the electorate. You
:30:35. > :30:40.don't care if they lose its combo Lib Dems? We will be fighting them
:30:41. > :30:44.in the election. Why do you care about keeping it sweet and unified
:30:45. > :30:47.until then? You have got more to gain and they have got everything to
:30:48. > :30:53.lose. We all have a common interest. They didn't vote overall
:30:54. > :30:56.for a winner last time. We came together in the national interest at
:30:57. > :31:00.a difficult stage of the European economy, and we have stuck to that,
:31:01. > :31:04.and we do have to focus on what has to be done in the next year and a
:31:05. > :31:11.half, as well as lookahead. What about another coalition with the
:31:12. > :31:14.Tories? It's not a game. We have to make sure we have in place an
:31:15. > :31:18.economy where people can have a realistic prospect of finding jobs,
:31:19. > :31:23.not losing their House. But you have also got to win your seat. You have
:31:24. > :31:27.got to hope, if you do the right thing, and make wise decisions...
:31:28. > :31:32.But some of your colleagues may not see that. Another coalition with the
:31:33. > :31:37.Tories. You have obviously enjoyed it? It was bought for the Lib Dems
:31:38. > :31:43.to being coalition again after the next general election. That it is
:31:44. > :31:47.possible. I think it either Conservatives or Labour were to get
:31:48. > :31:50.more than half the seats, neither of them would have an appetite for a
:31:51. > :31:54.coalition with the Lib Dems, although, if the Conservatives were
:31:55. > :31:59.to win with a majority of four, or Labour, with a tiny majority, people
:32:00. > :32:05.will look back fondly at this period of stable government compared to
:32:06. > :32:09.being fitted on a daily basis by government with a small majority.
:32:10. > :32:17.You have to be careful what you wish for. There's a lot to be said for
:32:18. > :32:21.stable coalition. You have obviously enjoyed the coalition and maybe
:32:22. > :32:26.would preferred... Some bits more than others! You have been a victim
:32:27. > :32:32.of coalition shenanigans. There was a lot of surprise when you didn't
:32:33. > :32:39.keep your job. I don't know if I'm a victim of shenanigans. They felt
:32:40. > :32:43.they had to shuffle the deck. I'm a victim of more senior people in
:32:44. > :32:48.government being able to decide who serves in government and who
:32:49. > :32:51.doesn't. But I am completely committed to this government. I
:32:52. > :32:54.think it is, by far and away, the best prospect Britain has full
:32:55. > :32:59.dealing with its long-term problems and I think we're a good fist of it.
:33:00. > :33:03.What is interesting about the coalition, as well as dealing with
:33:04. > :33:08.the deficit and recovery, we have done some pretty radical things. We
:33:09. > :33:45.are making big changes in welfare, in schools,
:33:46. > :33:45.are making big changes in welfare, are making big changes in welfare,
:33:46. > :33:47.in schools, that, honestly, you are better with
:33:48. > :33:50.a majority government which is more you can get on and do the things you
:33:51. > :34:11.want to do. We would you can get on and do the things you
:34:12. > :34:11.human rights, for example, getting rid
:34:12. > :34:11.human rights, for example, getting back fondly on Nick Clegg. I don't
:34:12. > :34:21.human rights, for example, getting agree with that. I believe don't
:34:22. > :34:29.Herbert says you sent letters to yourself and answer
:34:30. > :34:29.Herbert says you sent letters to part of this which cut across, how
:34:30. > :34:34.you deal with industries affected part of this which cut across, how
:34:35. > :34:41.example, which is why the Prime Minister asked we to
:34:42. > :34:41.example, which is why the Prime next time, the key thing is the
:34:42. > :35:00.politicians and the next time, the key thing is the
:35:01. > :35:04.different. We could have a minority-owned. Who knows?
:35:05. > :35:04.different. We could have a prepared for any kind of outcome. It
:35:05. > :35:16.would be great prepared for any kind of outcome. It
:35:17. > :35:16.what's happening this week. As we've heard,
:35:17. > :35:16.what's happening this week. As we've diplomatic to-do after meeting the
:35:17. > :35:22.Dalai Lama play. On Tuesday, Ed Miliband will
:35:23. > :35:30.be claiming play. On Tuesday, Ed Miliband will
:35:31. > :35:39.for attention by play. On Tuesday, Ed Miliband will
:35:40. > :36:10.Clegg will be in the ring with play. On Tuesday, Ed Miliband will
:36:11. > :36:17.it. And finally, Friday sees play. On Tuesday, Ed Miliband will
:36:18. > :36:23.David Cameron has sold his soul for play. On Tuesday, Ed Miliband will
:36:24. > :36:30.statesman and a in China. As Ms leaders will be
:36:31. > :36:30.statesman and a in China. As Ms and the fact of the matter is, there
:36:31. > :36:44.are some and the fact of the matter is, there
:36:45. > :36:51.Washing human rights to one side. Promoting Britain as the
:36:52. > :36:59.with. Other people say it's sour grapes from the French and the
:37:00. > :36:59.with. Other people say it's sour it's worth it? Some people say he is
:37:00. > :37:23.selling Britain's sold it's worth it? Some people say he is
:37:24. > :37:30.father-in-law and people like that. It's proving a distraction for him.
:37:31. > :37:34.On the other hand, out of the millions of businesses in the UK,
:37:35. > :37:40.not many have people related to the Prime Minister, so is having to fend
:37:41. > :37:44.off those criticisms. Maybe it's distracting from the message about
:37:45. > :37:49.helping British business overall. The allegations of cronyism have
:37:50. > :37:53.been in the papers. Whether or not that the tracks from the trip, this
:37:54. > :37:56.would also say some things that Western governments can't tell a
:37:57. > :38:01.Chinese what to do because they will freeze the right and you won't get
:38:02. > :38:04.what you want? Boris Johnson said it well on his recent China, when he
:38:05. > :38:09.said you can't go into meetings and say, how is this freedom stuff
:38:10. > :38:13.going, chaps? Western leaders know they will be put in the deep freeze.
:38:14. > :38:17.They are reluctant to tread into sensitive water. China needs
:38:18. > :38:26.European countries almost as much as we need them. They need our
:38:27. > :38:28.services. Their economy is heavy in manufacturing to services and the UK
:38:29. > :38:34.provides good accountancy, legal services. They need us. Foreign
:38:35. > :38:40.leaders have a duty to raise human rights issues when they are there.
:38:41. > :38:45.The Autumn statement, the UK economy motoring ahead. It's more
:38:46. > :38:51.austerities, isn't it? That is the message George Osborne yesterday was
:38:52. > :38:55.trying to deliver and he will stress that again on Thursday that things
:38:56. > :38:59.are turning the corner. He has got a delicate balance to adopt here will
:39:00. > :39:04.stop he is trying to say the economy is doing better but also he hasn't
:39:05. > :39:06.got much room for manoeuvre. We are expecting growth figures to be
:39:07. > :39:12.upgraded by the biggest increase for three years. So that's great.
:39:13. > :39:20.Hurray. We are expecting some giveaways. Perhaps on petrol duty,
:39:21. > :39:27.perhaps a cat. Help for small businesses in the high Street --
:39:28. > :39:34.cut. Some Tories, Liam Fox MP, are pushing hard for tax cuts, permanent
:39:35. > :39:40.austerity, George Osborne yesterday said to have lie ahead. But of
:39:41. > :39:45.course, they have another 18 months to go before the general election,
:39:46. > :39:49.so he'll want to save up some sweeteners for later on. It's a
:39:50. > :39:53.difficult balancing act, I think. The worry now, which we have been
:39:54. > :39:57.discussing if that there are fears of a housing bubble and actually,
:39:58. > :40:00.this growth is not sustainable, particularly if it's based on a
:40:01. > :40:07.housing bubble and another credit room. That's one of George
:40:08. > :40:11.Osborne's concerns, the recovery will look a bit like the kind of
:40:12. > :40:15.recoveries with hard in the past based on inflated housing prices,
:40:16. > :40:19.consumer credit and the rest of it. That's what he's trying to pull
:40:20. > :40:22.together the visit of the Prime Minister to China to show it will be
:40:23. > :40:26.a broader-based recovery, the exporter manufacturing going, to
:40:27. > :40:31.make sure we're not just dependent on a housing bubble. OK, both of
:40:32. > :40:34.you, thank you very much. Ever since Ed Miliband announced at his party
:40:35. > :40:37.conference that a Labour Government would implement a price freeze on
:40:38. > :40:40.energy bills, the Coalition has looked a little as though it's been
:40:41. > :40:44.running to keep up. Better news on the economy has apparently not led
:40:45. > :40:47.to better poll ratings, with the political debate focused on what
:40:48. > :40:50.Labour call a cost of living crisis. Over the last week we've been
:40:51. > :40:54.hearing clues about what the Government plans to do to keep bills
:40:55. > :41:02.down, and this morning we got the full details. Policies announced
:41:03. > :41:05.today will enable companies to reduce bills by an average of about
:41:06. > :41:08.?50. The energy company obligation or ECO scheme, which pays for home
:41:09. > :41:18.insulation, will be implemented more slowly. That should lead to a saving
:41:19. > :41:20.of ?30 to ?35 for customers. The Warm Home Discount, which provides a
:41:21. > :41:24.rebate for vulnerable households, will from now on be funded from
:41:25. > :41:28.general taxation, rather than added to bills. Meaning a further saving
:41:29. > :41:31.of ?12. And the electricity distribution network companies have
:41:32. > :41:36.agreed to cut their charges for a further one-off saving of ?5. It
:41:37. > :41:39.looks as though the Lib Dems have won some concessions to make sure
:41:40. > :41:46.the changes don't lead to higher carbon emissions. People who buy a
:41:47. > :41:49.new home could get up to ?1,000 from the Government to spend on
:41:50. > :41:53.energy-saving measures. And ?90 million of public money will be
:41:54. > :41:57.spent over three years to improve the energy efficiency of schools and
:41:58. > :42:01.hospitals. This morning the major energy companies have confirmed that
:42:02. > :42:05.they will pass on the savings to customers although most people's
:42:06. > :42:09.bills will still rise overall. Labour is launching its own Green
:42:10. > :42:13.Paper on energy today to consult on how their policy of freezing bills
:42:14. > :42:16.could be implemented. Ed Miliband says the changes to energy levies
:42:17. > :42:23.announced today are just smoke and mirrors. And Labour's Julie Elliott,
:42:24. > :42:28.who is a shadow energy minister, joins us now. Welcome to the
:42:29. > :42:32.programme. Michael Fallon, just to recap, today's announcement will
:42:33. > :42:36.mean those go up by less than they otherwise would but they are still
:42:37. > :42:41.going to rise overall, aren't they? It depends what happens to wholesale
:42:42. > :42:47.gas prices. Labour said you could freeze prices without explaining how
:42:48. > :42:52.you can free costs. No government can freeze international costs of
:42:53. > :42:56.gas or indeed of oil. We can deal with our own taxes, the levy is put
:42:57. > :42:59.on top of the bill, and we are to be not immediately. The government has
:43:00. > :43:04.already announced today that don't pass this through, so the bills now
:43:05. > :43:08.will be around ?50 lower than they would otherwise have been. Right,
:43:09. > :43:16.they have shot your fox, haven't they? Not at all, all they're doing
:43:17. > :43:20.is passing some costs of fuel bills onto general taxation and, to save
:43:21. > :43:25.energy prices are coming down, a British Gas customer who today's
:43:26. > :43:30.prices would have gone up by ?130, their bills are still ?80 more than
:43:31. > :43:34.they would have been lasted, so they haven't solved the problem, the
:43:35. > :43:37.energy market, between the companies, it's simply not working.
:43:38. > :43:44.These measures do nothing to address that. How do you control wholesale
:43:45. > :43:49.gas and oil prices? You can't. You can make it transparent. The freeze
:43:50. > :43:53.is a mechanism while we sort out the market in this country. You can't
:43:54. > :44:00.control the price of gas from the Middle East on the price of gas from
:44:01. > :44:03.Russia Makkah Orange and it has the importing. But you can make the
:44:04. > :44:08.market in Britain work, which it isn't at the moment. Because we
:44:09. > :44:13.inherited the big six companies from you. There were originally 14. By
:44:14. > :44:19.the time you finish in government, there's only six. We are going to
:44:20. > :44:25.annual competition. More competition. Making switching more
:44:26. > :44:27.easy, but in poorer households onto the cheapest possible tariffs,
:44:28. > :44:33.introducing... You are putting everyone on the same tariff, aren't
:44:34. > :44:36.you? There will be fewer of them. The most honourable people will get
:44:37. > :44:39.onto the lowest tariff, so we are tackling the problems of
:44:40. > :44:44.competition. Which we have inherited. We are also providing
:44:45. > :44:49.immediate help now full we don't have to wait for some mythical
:44:50. > :44:52.freeze in three year's time. It's not mythical. It has helped
:44:53. > :44:57.straightaway. You have welcomed the government taking action. They are
:44:58. > :45:01.doing something, and you have got to welcome anything that can be done
:45:02. > :45:04.but with three pathways that years into the government, energy prices
:45:05. > :45:08.have gone up hugely in the last three years and they have only acted
:45:09. > :45:15.when we have taken a decisive policy decision to do something in the
:45:16. > :45:20.general election. What are you going to do, you win the election, the
:45:21. > :45:24.frieze art enacted, the companies put prices up beforehand, wait until
:45:25. > :45:29.the freeze is over and do the same again? Well, if they collude, Ofgem
:45:30. > :45:37.have the power to act on that, and they should, because... What is to
:45:38. > :45:42.stop them putting up prices when the freeze ends? You cannot control
:45:43. > :45:45.energy prices, which is why what you have been saying about our energy
:45:46. > :45:49.frieze is misleading. We are planning to freeze them for 20
:45:50. > :45:55.months while we make the market work properly, while we make it open and
:45:56. > :45:59.transparent so that if companies own production and sale in the retail
:46:00. > :46:03.market, the cost to sell to each other is open, transparent and
:46:04. > :46:07.clear, so people know they are not paying above and beyond the odds,
:46:08. > :46:12.which at the moment they do not know. Is that not the way to go,
:46:13. > :46:16.breaking up the six companies? What you are doing is a short-term
:46:17. > :46:20.response to the fact that, politically, this has dominated the
:46:21. > :46:24.agenda, but isn't Labour right to say you have got to do something to
:46:25. > :46:27.reform the market properly? Responding to the increase is a
:46:28. > :46:28.short-term response to the fact that, politically, this has
:46:29. > :46:31.dominated the agenda, but isn't Labour right to say you have got to
:46:32. > :46:34.do something to reform the market properly? Responding to the
:46:35. > :46:38.increases of like fuel duty, council tax. The new competition review will
:46:39. > :46:42.do that, it will look at the cost and the structure of these
:46:43. > :46:46.companies, and it will see whether or not there is cross subsidy
:46:47. > :46:50.between the two things, the generation and retail supply. We
:46:51. > :46:55.will look very hard at that, and we will know the answer by the spring.
:46:56. > :46:58.The Warm Home Discount will be paid for out of general taxation, you are
:46:59. > :47:03.going to be accused of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is going to be much
:47:04. > :47:07.better focused. Too many of these levies are regressive, which means
:47:08. > :47:12.that the benefit goes to middle-class or wealthier households
:47:13. > :47:16.and is paid for by ordinary rate taxpayers. What we are going to do
:47:17. > :47:20.is target the levy is far better, so that the Energy Company Obligation,
:47:21. > :47:25.ECO, the biggest of them, gets to the house all to need it most, that
:47:26. > :47:31.is extremely important. Are they regressive, the Greek levy did not
:47:32. > :47:34.do what they were supposed to? I think Ed Miliband's initial proposal
:47:35. > :47:40.is completely economic leak illiterate, but I think that the
:47:41. > :47:44.Government's response has been in glorious, and I don't want the
:47:45. > :47:48.Government to lose its nerve. It promised to be the greenest
:47:49. > :47:52.government in history, and I think there is a danger of thinking that,
:47:53. > :47:55.if we give people a discount of less than ?1 per week, they will be
:47:56. > :47:59.tremendously grateful and the argument will have gone. Go. The
:48:00. > :48:08.Government should focus on cost of living, the fact that we have lifted
:48:09. > :48:13.people out of tax. -- gone full circle. If you earn ?15,000 per
:48:14. > :48:19.year, this Government as cut your tax bill by ?700 per year, and that
:48:20. > :48:22.is dealing with the cost of living, not 50p here or there as a response
:48:23. > :48:28.to Ed Miliband's tactical manoeuvres. You are not going to be
:48:29. > :48:31.the greenest government ever, George Osborne made it clear that Britain
:48:32. > :48:37.cannot afford it, David Cameron has called it green crap, it has gone.
:48:38. > :48:41.We are the greenest government ever, we have more offshore wind than any
:48:42. > :48:46.country on earth, we are inundated with applications for onshore
:48:47. > :48:49.turbines, solar energy, 15% of our electricity comes from renewables
:48:50. > :48:53.and we said at the green investment bank. We are pursuing the green
:48:54. > :48:56.agenda, but it has to be affordable, cost-effective. We are
:48:57. > :49:00.not abandoning our green commitments, but we are making sure
:49:01. > :49:05.the burden does not fall unfairly on some households and certainly does
:49:06. > :49:08.not fall unfairly on our businesses compare to others in Europe. I agree
:49:09. > :49:17.it needs to be cost-effective and we need rational policy-making. What I
:49:18. > :49:20.said, if you earn ?16,000 per year, by April of next year this
:49:21. > :49:25.government will have cut your tax bill by ?700, a real cost of living
:49:26. > :49:29.bonus. I think the Government is in danger of losing the focus on its
:49:30. > :49:34.real achievements, what is doing to help people on low and middle
:49:35. > :49:37.incomes by being true and by Ed Miliband's economic leak illiterate
:49:38. > :49:41.ideas and energy prices. If the Government is drawn into that, it
:49:42. > :49:53.will lose the argument. The savings come from changes which are mostly
:49:54. > :50:04.social programmes. So we are all still paying big subsidies for low
:50:05. > :50:08.carbon energy. Because there was no plan to replace the coal-fired and
:50:09. > :50:14.oil fired stations, we have to invest in all sorts of new power
:50:15. > :50:19.stations and that includes renewables. That has to be paid for,
:50:20. > :50:21.and the reforms we are announcing today do not undermine the
:50:22. > :50:26.renewables obligation of the new contracts for difference, we are
:50:27. > :50:30.still going to get investment made which we should have had years ago.
:50:31. > :50:35.If you are struggling to pay your bill, do you care whether or not
:50:36. > :50:38.some of it is going to pay for new green renewable energy? You just
:50:39. > :50:43.want lower bills, don't you? I think it is not fair to say that people do
:50:44. > :50:51.not want a greener energy mix. Do they care? What's this has actually
:50:52. > :50:56.done, extending ECO for another two years is the same amount of money,
:50:57. > :50:59.it could mean that in some terms it is a cut to make homes
:51:00. > :51:03.energy-efficient because you are spreading the money over twice the
:51:04. > :51:08.period of time. Also, what really needs to happen with ECO, we would
:51:09. > :51:12.have got rid of it, because it needs to be targeted at people who cannot
:51:13. > :51:16.afford to pay their bills. At the moment, 60% of people who get ECO
:51:17. > :51:21.can afford to do the changes themselves. It is not targeted at
:51:22. > :51:27.poor people. It is going to be better targeted, there are going to
:51:28. > :51:31.be more households in deprived areas that will be eligible for it. It is
:51:32. > :51:36.being spread over two years rather than four, that is good, some
:51:37. > :51:40.companies have not been able to discharge their obligations under it
:51:41. > :51:43.in the first two years, so it will be spread further out. It will be
:51:44. > :51:48.better targeted at the most vulnerable, and I'm sorry to hear
:51:49. > :51:54.that Labour would scrap it, I did not realise that. It is a good
:51:55. > :51:58.thing, insulating homes? I want the Government to be environmentally
:51:59. > :52:02.ambitious, it could have a better record on reducing demand for
:52:03. > :52:06.energy, new-build houses with solar panelling, all of those types of
:52:07. > :52:15.areas. The point I am making on the big political tussle is that, yes,
:52:16. > :52:20.Labour left this garment with an economic catastrophe, and Labour
:52:21. > :52:24.have seized the initiative with their economically illiterate
:52:25. > :52:27.policies, the Government has been badly wrong-footed, given we have
:52:28. > :52:34.created over 1 million private sector jobs... I have to give you a
:52:35. > :52:39.chance to respond to that. This Government is sending all the wrong
:52:40. > :52:44.signals to business, so investment in renewables has fallen through the
:52:45. > :52:49.floor, a direct result of the actions of this government. I will
:52:50. > :52:56.leave it there, thank you very much. You will all remember scenes like
:52:57. > :53:00.these from not so long ago. The British Government has so far given
:53:01. > :53:05.?50 million in emergency aid to the Philippines after the devastation
:53:06. > :53:09.wrought by Typhoon Haiyan. But it seems that our counterparts have not
:53:10. > :53:16.been as generous, let's have a quick look at this clip now.
:53:17. > :53:22.What they need now is more water, but today it rained and rained and
:53:23. > :53:28.rained. In most places, when the rain comes down, people go inside.
:53:29. > :53:33.Here, foremost, is no inside. And so they huddle under whatever cover
:53:34. > :53:40.they can find, although some seem blissfully unaware of the misery all
:53:41. > :53:44.around them. Of course, those were tragic
:53:45. > :53:48.pictures that we saw over a period of days and weeks, the consequences
:53:49. > :53:52.of that dreadful incident, and there has been plenty of talk about the
:53:53. > :53:55.money that has been sent. Talking about emergency aid to the
:53:56. > :53:59.Philippines, it seems that our counterparts have not been as
:54:00. > :54:02.generous, and the Sun report it has raised more money than the French
:54:03. > :54:08.government and that the furniture chain IKEA has donated more money
:54:09. > :54:12.than China and Russia. With me to discuss this is Emily Ashton from
:54:13. > :54:24.the Sun, I use a prized by that, Jeremy Browne? Not at all. -- are
:54:25. > :54:28.you surprised. British people are extremely generous, and in Taunton
:54:29. > :54:33.two Rotary clubs were raising money, and it was not just loose change, it
:54:34. > :54:37.was ?10 notes. There is also a slightly bigger point to go around
:54:38. > :54:40.to David Cameron's trip again, which is that although China has
:54:41. > :54:44.potentials of world leadership, when it comes to the crunch, even in
:54:45. > :54:48.Asia, in the Philippines, it is the West End countries like Britain and
:54:49. > :54:51.the Americans that are stepping up to the plate and helping the
:54:52. > :54:54.Filipinos, whether it is the government or the British people. We
:54:55. > :54:58.are still playing a major role in the world, and countries like China
:54:59. > :55:01.have an onus on them to start thinking in global terms beyond
:55:02. > :55:06.their own borders in terms of how they can help people in desperate
:55:07. > :55:10.circumstances. Emily, you must be feeling good. Absolutely, we
:55:11. > :55:16.launched this last month, and hopefully people have seen it. We
:55:17. > :55:20.launched the campaign last month, when we saw the devastation, and
:55:21. > :55:26.there was an amazing response, ?550,000 has been raised by the
:55:27. > :55:29.campaign, it will can text in ?1, and that is what thousands and
:55:30. > :55:33.thousands of people have done. You can also donate online, and we are
:55:34. > :55:38.asking bosses to donate ?1 for everyone of their employees. That
:55:39. > :55:43.has raised about ?550,000, more than the French government! Which seems
:55:44. > :55:47.to amazing, is there something particular about the British psyche
:55:48. > :55:52.that makes as generous? I think we are a bighearted nation, a generous
:55:53. > :55:56.nation, and the UK Government have donated ?50 million, the most out of
:55:57. > :56:01.any government. Is that something you are proud of? We are proud of
:56:02. > :56:05.our record on overseas aid, this is not a political point. The public
:56:06. > :56:09.has been generous, the government has signed up to the 0.7% target,
:56:10. > :56:13.and we are one of the leading nations not just in the amount of
:56:14. > :56:19.aid, but in the quality of aid we give and the speed of our response.
:56:20. > :56:22.Given that ?33 million was raised by the British public, does it raise
:56:23. > :56:26.questions about how we manage foreign aid? Should it continue to
:56:27. > :56:30.be ringfenced? I think it is important to ring fence it as we
:56:31. > :56:34.head towards the target, and I do not think it is right to take out on
:56:35. > :56:38.the poorest areas of the world, whether Africa or these disaster
:56:39. > :56:42.areas like the Philippines, our own domestic economic problems. They are
:56:43. > :56:48.not their concern. But we talk about countries like India. And we are
:56:49. > :56:52.stepping down the aid to India, that is happening already, so we can
:56:53. > :56:57.better focus on the poorest areas of the world, which is still Africa. Do
:56:58. > :56:59.you think the British public, generous though they have been, do
:57:00. > :57:05.they really sign up to this ringfencing of foreign aid as a
:57:06. > :57:08.percentage of GDP? I think people make the distinction between areas
:57:09. > :57:12.of real crisis, where people simply do not have the basics of water and
:57:13. > :57:15.food to survive, that is a very different thing to some of the other
:57:16. > :57:19.things. I agree with Michael that we should stick to this evil .7%, it is
:57:20. > :57:28.something we should be very proud of. -- this 0.7%. What about being
:57:29. > :57:33.the nasty country over immigration? I strongly disagree with that! We
:57:34. > :57:37.are an extremely generous hearted country, and every time we have one
:57:38. > :57:41.of these major international disasters, this appeal, people
:57:42. > :57:45.collecting money in the street, the British public give very generously,
:57:46. > :57:50.but we are doing it for the right reasons, because we see these people
:57:51. > :57:55.on television, and we feel extremely sympathetic for them. But I make the
:57:56. > :57:58.wider political point, do not think the Government and the main people
:57:59. > :58:01.in the Philippines will not notice. They will notice and they will
:58:02. > :58:05.appreciate that when it came to the crunch, countries like China held
:58:06. > :58:08.back and Britain stepped forward. In terms of our status in the world,
:58:09. > :58:13.people say that Britain does not matter any more. I think it is not
:58:14. > :58:16.just what the government does, it is that people right around the world
:58:17. > :58:18.can see that the British people are international in their outlook and
:58:19. > :58:24.extremely charitable and sympathetic. Thank you very much,
:58:25. > :58:27.Emily. The answer to the quiz, I hope you remember this, what
:58:28. > :58:33.culinary delight was David Cameron served in China? Roasted decades,
:58:34. > :58:38.bamboo fungus, chicken feed or sweet-and-sour sea horse? They all
:58:39. > :58:42.sounds delicious! Have you eaten all of them? The only thing I do not
:58:43. > :58:49.really like is rice pudding, so I would... Not for breakfast may be!
:58:50. > :58:56.Which one to Mac may be the fungus. That was a guest! From all of us,
:58:57. > :58:58.bye-bye.