:00:45. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:49. > :00:51.World leaders pay tribute to Nelson Mandela, after the former South
:00:52. > :00:54.African president dies at the age of 95. We'll hear from Britain's former
:00:55. > :00:56.High Commissioner to South Africa, Paul Boateng.
:00:57. > :00:59.As the dust settles on George Osborne's Autumn Statement, the
:01:00. > :01:04.Chancellor has a spring in his step. But how resilient is the recovery?
:01:05. > :01:09.Questions, too, for Ed Balls, left red in the face after a stumbling
:01:10. > :01:12.performance in the House of Commons. We'll discuss the political fall-out
:01:13. > :01:16.of the Chancellor's statement with a trio of frontbenchers.
:01:17. > :01:18.And in the latest of our series on great political thinkers, Toby Young
:01:19. > :01:29.tells us about his favourite philosopher. JS Mill was the first
:01:30. > :01:34.political philosopher I read, aged 17, as part of preparing for my
:01:35. > :01:41.Oxford interview. I was a punk anarchist at the time.
:01:42. > :01:46.Punk anarchist? What is that? All that in the next hour, and with
:01:47. > :01:49.us for the duration, Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee, and the
:01:50. > :01:51.editor of the financial newspaper City AM, Allister Heath. Welcome to
:01:52. > :01:55.the Daily Politics. We start, of course, with the death
:01:56. > :01:59.of Nelson Mandela. Mr Mandela had been suffering from a lung illness
:02:00. > :02:02.for a long time and had been receiving treatment at home since
:02:03. > :02:06.September, when he was discharged from hospital. The news was
:02:07. > :02:10.announced just before 10:00pm London time by the current South African
:02:11. > :02:13.president, Jacob Zuma. Today, South Africans have gathered in
:02:14. > :02:19.Johannesburg and Soweto to mourn his death and celebrate his life.
:02:20. > :02:30.Tributes have been paid by political leaders around the world. Tonight,
:02:31. > :02:36.one of the brightest lights of our world has gone out. Now some Mandela
:02:37. > :02:43.was not just a hero of our time but a hero of all time. The first
:02:44. > :02:48.president of a free South Africa, a man who suffered so much for freedom
:02:49. > :02:57.and justice. And a man who threw his dignity -- through his dignity and
:02:58. > :03:01.triumph, inspired millions. We will not likely see the likes of Nelson
:03:02. > :03:08.Mandela again, so it falls to us, as best we can, to follow the example
:03:09. > :03:12.he set. To make decisions guided not by hate but by love. To never
:03:13. > :03:17.discount the difference that one person can make. To strive for a
:03:18. > :03:24.future that is worthy of his sacrifice. For now, let us pause and
:03:25. > :03:33.give thanks to the fact that not some Mandela lived. A man who took
:03:34. > :03:40.history in his hands. And bent the arc of the moral universe towards
:03:41. > :03:54.justice. He is now resting. He is now at peace. Our nation has lost
:03:55. > :03:58.its greatest son. Our people have lost a father.
:03:59. > :04:03.South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma. Of course, Nelson Mandela's
:04:04. > :04:05.life had a huge impact on British politics. Ross Hawkins looks back on
:04:06. > :04:16.the changing attitudes towards South Africa and the relationships forged
:04:17. > :04:20.between both countries. A politician honoured to like no
:04:21. > :04:26.other, with ceremony and a statue at Westminster in 2007. It wasn't
:04:27. > :04:35.always like this. As he recalled at the time. When we visited
:04:36. > :04:44.Westminster Abbey in Parliament Square in 1962, we half joke that we
:04:45. > :04:54.hoped that one day a statue of a black person would be erected here.
:04:55. > :04:58.Some hope. Nelson Mandela, who met Labour and Liberal leaders back then
:04:59. > :05:03.but not the Conservative minister, Harold Macmillan, was a wanted man
:05:04. > :05:06.in South Africa. Two years later he would be jailed for sabotage. He was
:05:07. > :05:11.still in prison when Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister. She
:05:12. > :05:15.regarded his African National Congress as a terrorist
:05:16. > :05:19.organisation. She wanted an end to apartheid but opposed, rents of
:05:20. > :05:25.economic sanctions, argued they hurt black South Africans. You don't want
:05:26. > :05:29.to always hand the stick to South Africa, I think she is a bit fed up
:05:30. > :05:32.with that. When she does things that we want her to do, I think we have
:05:33. > :05:41.got to encourage her. This was the era of the Cold War. The West feared
:05:42. > :05:47.commonest influence on the ANC. Global concerns were different back
:05:48. > :05:50.then. The ANC had the support of the communist world because the West
:05:51. > :05:54.would not support it, with the exception of Scandinavian countries
:05:55. > :05:58.like Sweden. So many countries in the West, including Britain and the
:05:59. > :06:03.United States, almost saw not some Mandela as agents of cumin is.
:06:04. > :06:09.Nonsense, but that is the way it was seen -- agents of communism. When
:06:10. > :06:14.his freedom finally came, the world was different and the politics had
:06:15. > :06:18.shifted. Once he was released, everything changed. It all switch to
:06:19. > :06:22.trying to create a harmonious transition to a different type of
:06:23. > :06:30.South Africa. The Conservative Party attitudes changed, John Major was by
:06:31. > :06:33.minister and was very supportive. By 1996, Nelson Mandela was addressing
:06:34. > :06:41.parliament, and politicians from all sides assembled to pay tribute. This
:06:42. > :06:49.was a star like no other. One who could inspire, move and bring call
:06:50. > :06:56.political gold dust. -- sprinkle political gold dust.
:06:57. > :07:02.I can see men and women who were the candidates to immortality. A Tory
:07:03. > :07:04.leader battling Tony Blair met Nelson Mandela and said the
:07:05. > :07:11.Conservatives had got it wrong on the ANC and on sanctions. And the
:07:12. > :07:15.man who first came to Britain as a fugitive is now celebrated by the
:07:16. > :07:23.right and left alike, as the greatest and most successful of
:07:24. > :07:26.politicians. Ross Hawkins, with a reminder of
:07:27. > :07:31.Nelson Mandela's impact on British politics. We've been joined by the
:07:32. > :07:33.Labour politician, Paul Boateng, who served as Britain's High
:07:34. > :07:42.Commissioner to South Africa from 2005 to 2009. Welcome to the Daily
:07:43. > :07:46.Politics. A sad day, in the aftermath of learning of Mr
:07:47. > :07:51.Mandela's death last night. You met him when he got out of prison. I met
:07:52. > :07:56.him in Geneva at the world Council of churches, his first public outing
:07:57. > :08:03.was to Switzerland and the churches. Who had been at the backbone of the
:08:04. > :08:07.anti-apartheid struggle, who had stood alongside him when many
:08:08. > :08:11.described him as a terrorist, many wore T-shirts that said, hanging
:08:12. > :08:18.Nelson Mandela. A very different time. You saw that this was a man
:08:19. > :08:25.imbued with values and a vision. He gave that to politics. And it is
:08:26. > :08:30.that which is so sorely missing for politics, not just in South Africa
:08:31. > :08:35.but in our world today. What had prison done to him? I think it had
:08:36. > :08:40.strengthened him, ironically. This was a man who had always had focus
:08:41. > :08:47.and discipline. That was the hallmark of his life up until then.
:08:48. > :08:51.That was amplified in prison context. He was always, and we
:08:52. > :08:57.should never forget, a freedom fighter. He believed and led the
:08:58. > :09:02.armed struggle. But such was the overwhelming power of love in his
:09:03. > :09:06.life, that he knew that part of the discipline and focus of that had to
:09:07. > :09:11.be the capacity to reconcile, had to be the capacity to build bridges.
:09:12. > :09:18.Whenever I met him, in whatever capacity that was, whether it was a
:09:19. > :09:23.lay church person as a Cabinet minister, or High Commissioner,
:09:24. > :09:27.always there was this sense that he had this profound moral purpose,
:09:28. > :09:32.linked with an acute political strategy. He was not, and it is a
:09:33. > :09:39.great mistake to paint him as somehow a sort of saintly, innocent
:09:40. > :09:44.abroad. He was a politician through and through, an activist, but he had
:09:45. > :10:00.a moral compass, and that didn't just guide him and the ANC. We are
:10:01. > :10:04.talking about a man who worked alongside the famous names of the
:10:05. > :10:06.early ANC. They were part of a movement that had this focus and
:10:07. > :10:13.discipline but was rooted in profound values. Is what makes Mr
:10:14. > :10:17.Mandela different from all of them, is it this? Would it be fair to say
:10:18. > :10:21.that if Nelson Mandela had not existed, the history of South Africa
:10:22. > :10:32.could have been very different, in a bad way. I think he played a key
:10:33. > :10:38.role at a critical time. But I don't think that he was, in himself,
:10:39. > :10:44.bigger than the ANC. He was the product of the ANC, a product of his
:10:45. > :10:50.culture, and he brought to that unique personal qualities. But we
:10:51. > :10:55.really must not take this man out of his context. It would not have been
:10:56. > :11:01.possible to have had a peaceful transition in South Africa...
:11:02. > :11:05.Although don't forget, 10,000 people died after his release. But it would
:11:06. > :11:11.not have been possible to avoid the racial bloodbath that all feared,
:11:12. > :11:16.had it not been for a movement, the ANC, that embraced the path of
:11:17. > :11:22.reconciliation and made enormous sacrifices economically for it.
:11:23. > :11:25.Because the black man in South Africa today is still grossly
:11:26. > :11:34.disadvantaged as compared to the white. And there is still a way to
:11:35. > :11:38.go before Nelson Mandela's dream and aspiration for a rainbow nation in
:11:39. > :11:43.which the Freedom Charter is embedded is achieved. Mandela was
:11:44. > :11:49.the one black leader of all the ones that you have mentioned that had an
:11:50. > :11:54.authority and a cut through with the Afrikaner and other white South
:11:55. > :11:59.African community. The other ANC leaders did not have that. Mr dig --
:12:00. > :12:14.France De Klerk said he could not have done
:12:15. > :12:16.it without Mandela. De Klerk was intimately involved in those
:12:17. > :12:21.negotiations and there is no doubt the two meant developed a strong
:12:22. > :12:26.relationship. In politics, relationships are, at the end of the
:12:27. > :12:30.day, very important. That relationship between FW De Klerk and
:12:31. > :12:33.Nelson Mandela was an important one. I say again, having lived there and
:12:34. > :12:41.work as part of this movement for many years, don't forget the other
:12:42. > :12:48.leaders. We are not forgetting any of these. But we are just in the
:12:49. > :12:52.aftermath of Mr Mandela's death. Because they are all part of the
:12:53. > :12:57.movement. You have made that point. What are your thoughts this morning?
:12:58. > :13:03.He does make other world leaders shrivelled, I am afraid. There was
:13:04. > :13:07.something so magnanimous and splendid about him. He was
:13:08. > :13:13.theatrical and he was wonderful at the theatre of politics. He was a
:13:14. > :13:17.politician to his fingertips. There was that great moment when he turned
:13:18. > :13:20.up wearing the Springboks colours, Springboks really synonymous with
:13:21. > :13:26.white South Africa at the time. That was a theatrical event. I spent a
:13:27. > :13:36.lot of my youth outside South Africa house, demonstrating. I worked for
:13:37. > :13:37.amnesty in Rhodesia in its apartheid days and thank goodness it has all
:13:38. > :13:49.gone but it was horrific. It is sometimes hard to remember it
:13:50. > :14:02.happened, it sound so ridiculous. It is extraordinary to think how few
:14:03. > :14:14.people supported him. I was 13 when he was released from
:14:15. > :14:19.prison and it was probably the first of the big political events that I
:14:20. > :14:27.remember. It was this amazing event that 13-year-old Scot involved with.
:14:28. > :14:30.I agree -- 13-year-olds got involved with. It is ridiculous, looking
:14:31. > :14:36.back, that it took so long for this to happen. To me, it is the end of
:14:37. > :14:40.the 20th century, his passing. The end of an era of great struggles
:14:41. > :14:45.against oppression for the B had fascism, coming as, apartheid and
:14:46. > :14:49.horrible ideologies. It was a great man who transcended everything and
:14:50. > :14:57.one of the very few global figures... Gandhi is another one.
:14:58. > :15:00.You are right, he is probably the last of the 20th-century figures
:15:01. > :15:06.with that iconic status. Polly is right, the ante apartheid --
:15:07. > :15:11.anti-apartheid movement was pretty small to begin with and it was a
:15:12. > :15:14.long time before it grew. Can we pat ourselves on the back as a country,
:15:15. > :15:19.that written in general, London in particular, -- Britain in general
:15:20. > :15:26.was a main centre for the anti-apartheid movement? I think we
:15:27. > :15:30.can all stop there is something special about London and the British
:15:31. > :15:35.people in terms of their capacity to embrace global struggles. Whatever
:15:36. > :15:39.their political leaders are saying or doing, and that is to the credit
:15:40. > :15:43.of the British people. I found that there were trade union groups, the
:15:44. > :15:50.mothers' union, village halls, ordinary people in rural and urban
:15:51. > :15:54.England who recognised that apartheid was a gross injustice. But
:15:55. > :15:58.there was a hell of a political divide between Labour and the
:15:59. > :16:02.Liberals on one side and the Conservatives on the other. But at
:16:03. > :16:06.the end of the day, the people won. That is what Nelson Mandela
:16:07. > :16:13.symbolises, that whatever happens in terms of the Cold War or party
:16:14. > :16:19.politics, people's movements and activism, when rooted in values and
:16:20. > :16:25.vision is, can triumph. "The plan is working, but the job of
:16:26. > :16:27.recovery is not yet done" . That was the message from Chancellor George
:16:28. > :16:33.Osborne yesterday as he outlined his Autumn Statement to MPs. But despite
:16:34. > :16:36.growth returning to the UK economy, the Office for Budget Responsibility
:16:37. > :16:38.warned of the risks with the recovery fuelled by consumer
:16:39. > :16:47.spending and high levels of household debt, which could top ?2
:16:48. > :16:51.trillion within four years. The OBR expected the economy to grow by 1.4%
:16:52. > :16:56.this year, double the 0.6% they predicted in March, and by 2.4% next
:16:57. > :17:02.year, higher than they predicted in March as well. The higher than
:17:03. > :17:08.expected level of growth means the chancellor will or less this year
:17:09. > :17:11.that was forecast at the Budget, and he told MPs yesterday that he hopes
:17:12. > :17:16.to run a surplus of ?2 billion in 2018-19. The deficit may have
:17:17. > :17:20.started falling again after two years of little movement, but total
:17:21. > :17:28.debt is still eye-wateringly high and is due to peak at ?1.4 trillion
:17:29. > :17:33.by 2015-16. I have no idea what that means, but it does mean we will have
:17:34. > :17:37.to work for longer, with Osborne announcing that the retirement age
:17:38. > :17:41.will go up at a faster rate. Those in their late 30s will now have to
:17:42. > :17:47.wait until they are 69 to claim a pension. But it was not all gloomy
:17:48. > :17:50.news. The chancellor announced that National Insurance contributions are
:17:51. > :17:57.being scrapped for employers taking on someone who is under 21 as part
:17:58. > :17:59.of an attempt to bring down youth unemployment. And there were
:18:00. > :18:08.measures to help bring down the cost of living. There was the planned 2p
:18:09. > :18:11.fuel duty rise for next year which has been cancelled, and average rail
:18:12. > :18:16.fares will be frozen in real terms from January. This morning, the
:18:17. > :18:20.chancellor was challenged on whether this was the wrong type of recovery,
:18:21. > :18:27.fuelled by consumer spending and high levels of debt. I don't accept
:18:28. > :18:33.that, because actually, 400 thousand new jobs have been created this
:18:34. > :18:37.year. Those are new opportunities for people, many of whom would have
:18:38. > :18:44.been out of work because of the recession we endured in 2008 and
:18:45. > :18:49.2009. Jobs are being created in businesses like this and in small
:18:50. > :18:56.businesses. Yesterday, we were able to provide help for those high
:18:57. > :18:59.street shops trying to stay open. There is better news cost the
:19:00. > :19:04.country, but I would be first to say that we have got to work through
:19:05. > :19:09.this plan. The biggest risk would be coming off the plant that has got us
:19:10. > :19:12.this far. So how does the Autumn Statement
:19:13. > :19:26.look 24 hours on? Our political correspondent joins us now. What a
:19:27. > :19:28.lovely winter scene. Obviously, the whole Autumn Statement was hugely
:19:29. > :19:34.overshadowed by the death of Nelson Mandela, but how does it look this
:19:35. > :19:46.morning? What bits are getting praise and what bits are beginning
:19:47. > :19:49.to unravel? As you mentioned, the Office for Budget Responsibility,
:19:50. > :19:55.set up as an independent body by daughters worn, has been questioning
:19:56. > :20:02.the nature of the recovery -- it was set up by George Osborne. What lies
:20:03. > :20:06.beneath the recovery led by consumer spending? Lots of people are
:20:07. > :20:10.appealing to their much diminished savings in order to spend. That
:20:11. > :20:16.could lead you on to Labour's territory about talking about a cost
:20:17. > :20:20.of living crisis, with people dipping into their savings to make
:20:21. > :20:22.ends meet. There was more disappointing news from the Office
:20:23. > :20:25.for Budget Responsibility, because we are not getting the export led
:20:26. > :20:31.recovery that the government would like. Forecast are disappointing.
:20:32. > :20:37.The OBR are also concerned about house prices, which are rising more
:20:38. > :20:44.than they were forecasting in March. Lib Dem Business Secretary Vince
:20:45. > :20:51.Cable is worried about that as well. But the slightly gloomier economic
:20:52. > :20:54.news is not necessarily bad for the chancellor. Going into the next
:20:55. > :21:00.election, his phrase will be, a lot done, a lot still to do. I have
:21:01. > :21:08.given you a recovery, but it is too fragile to be passed into Labour's
:21:09. > :21:12.clumsy hands. They would drop it. He wants voters not to be tempted to
:21:13. > :21:16.say OK, you have sorted out the mess, and now we can trust Labour to
:21:17. > :21:22.spend our money and tackle the cost of living.
:21:23. > :21:26.We are doing to now by the financial Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid
:21:27. > :21:31.Javid. The Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Chris Leslie is in our
:21:32. > :21:37.Nottingham studio and in Middlesbrough, the Lib Dem Treasury
:21:38. > :21:42.spokesman, Ian Swales. Sajid Javid, most of the growth this year has
:21:43. > :21:48.been fuelled by consumer spending. House prices are up 7.7% compared to
:21:49. > :21:53.last year. Household debt is 116 million pounds higher than forecast
:21:54. > :21:59.to be six months ago. This is just a mini version of the boom we had in
:22:00. > :22:03.the lead up to 2007. Let me quickly associate myself with the comments
:22:04. > :22:09.of Paul Boateng first on Nelson Mandela, who was an inspiration to
:22:10. > :22:11.me and it was sad news yesterday. Turning to your question, what we
:22:12. > :22:17.heard yesterday from the chancellor was confirmation that the economy is
:22:18. > :22:23.growing faster than perceived before. The OECD said a couple of
:22:24. > :22:28.weeks ago that the British economy is growing faster than any other
:22:29. > :22:32.developed economy. There has also been an upgrade in job forecasts.
:22:33. > :22:41.But I was asking you about the content. The economy is growing in
:22:42. > :22:46.all sectors, not just services. Manufacturing and other sectors are
:22:47. > :22:53.growing. Exports are not growing. They are. They fell in the last
:22:54. > :22:58.quarter. Since this government came to office, exports have grown stop
:22:59. > :23:03.it would be an incompetent government that could not get any
:23:04. > :23:08.export growth. They have not grown this year. You could pick one
:23:09. > :23:14.particular quarter and said they did not grow them, but we need to focus
:23:15. > :23:19.on -- we should have focused on exports a decade ago. This
:23:20. > :23:27.government has started doing that. Exports are almost 100% to some
:23:28. > :23:32.countries. We are getting the job done. Business investment is not
:23:33. > :23:41.growing. Overall investment is growing. Business investment is not
:23:42. > :23:45.growing. The economy is growing by 1.4% this year. 1.2% of that is
:23:46. > :23:52.consumer spending. Business investment is a negative -0.4%. It
:23:53. > :23:58.is because of the lack of investment but growth is less than it would be.
:23:59. > :24:07.Investment is coming through. It takes time for confidence to build.
:24:08. > :24:13.But the fact is matter. Business investment has been a drag on
:24:14. > :24:20.growth. It has played no part in the 1.4% growth rate. Alistair, help me
:24:21. > :24:28.out. That is true. Do this investment is a drag on growth. They
:24:29. > :24:36.are hoarding something like 700 LE and pounds -- 700 Ilium pounds.
:24:37. > :24:42.Unfortunately, it seems like the recovery will be driven primarily by
:24:43. > :24:44.consumer spending. Exports are not growing fast enough and
:24:45. > :24:57.house-building is not growing fast enough. We would all like to see all
:24:58. > :25:00.those things grow faster. We have to deal with the huge problems this
:25:01. > :25:05.government has inherited, bigger than any other industrialised
:25:06. > :25:07.country. Part of that was having a method to bring back confidence to
:25:08. > :25:13.the economy, make sure interest rates stay low to encourage
:25:14. > :25:19.investment. Foreign investment is at a record rate in Britain at the
:25:20. > :25:23.moment. In the first six months of this year, the OECD said Britain saw
:25:24. > :25:30.more foreign direct investment than any other country except China. The
:25:31. > :25:33.whole world is investing in us. You are selling off a loss of our stuff
:25:34. > :25:38.to state-owned companies elsewhere. Chinese, French energy, everything
:25:39. > :25:43.we are building and doing here, we seem to be selling to other
:25:44. > :25:49.people's state-owned companies. It is all right to nationalise as long
:25:50. > :25:53.as it is not in this country. Chris Leslie, are you able to answer any
:25:54. > :26:00.of the questions I asked you yesterday that you were not able to
:26:01. > :26:03.answer? Before you repeat the question, I think it would be
:26:04. > :26:09.appropriate if I also paid tribute on the death of Nelson Mandela. It
:26:10. > :26:14.is important that all of our comments are put in that context
:26:15. > :26:20.today. So, does Labour support the principle of a welfare cap? Yes.
:26:21. > :26:29.Would that include tensions? We want to have a welfare cap like the
:26:30. > :26:32.government have said, that tries to define the benefits paid out in
:26:33. > :26:38.society. The best way to do that is to look at the social security
:26:39. > :26:47.expenditure we have over a 20 or 30 year time frame. The cap will
:26:48. > :26:51.probably include some pension benefits in the long-term full of it
:26:52. > :26:57.is not right that the winter fuel allowance is paid to the richest 5%
:26:58. > :27:01.of pensioners. We know there is a triple lock on the basic state
:27:02. > :27:07.pension, and we agree with that. But would Labour's cap, which you agree
:27:08. > :27:10.with in principle, include the state pension? In the near term, we don't
:27:11. > :27:18.think we should depart from the triple lock. But over a 20 or 30
:27:19. > :27:20.year period, if you are managing welfare, just as you have to make
:27:21. > :27:26.changes on life expect to see to reflect the cost of retirement
:27:27. > :27:30.benefits, we need to make tough decisions on this. We will probably
:27:31. > :27:37.need to include pension benefits in the overall welfare expenditure
:27:38. > :27:42.limitations. But it is important to stress that we also believe the
:27:43. > :27:45.triple lock for the basic state pension is important. I don't
:27:46. > :27:51.understand how you can have the triple lock and a cap on benefit
:27:52. > :27:57.that includes pensions. Well, ask Sajid Javid. The government has made
:27:58. > :28:03.it clear that they are excluding pensions, and I want to work out
:28:04. > :28:09.whether you would or would not. You will find that you can't have a
:28:10. > :28:19.welfare cap of ?120 billion. What is the answer? Excluding pensions from
:28:20. > :28:37.the cap. How can you say it is a ?120 billion cap? I am talking about
:28:38. > :28:41.the 120 billion. If you take the state pension out and exclude
:28:42. > :28:55.job-seeker's allowance, you are down to about 120 billion. Have a look at
:28:56. > :29:00.the figures. I have. They made announcements about the retirement
:29:01. > :29:07.age. There are tough decisions to be taken about that. For us, the key is
:29:08. > :29:12.that it is based on evidence and not just ministers to give their finger
:29:13. > :29:15.in the air and making a guess. I will file my questions under F for
:29:16. > :29:23.failure for two days in a row. You are not making me look good. Ian
:29:24. > :29:28.Swales, are the Lib Dems signing up to the proposed fiscal charter which
:29:29. > :29:37.would almost legally lock in continued deficit reduction? We
:29:38. > :29:43.believe the economy should be run in a way that does deal with the
:29:44. > :29:49.deficit. We will sign up to the charter as part of this government.
:29:50. > :29:52.We believe the economy needs to have Dutch lower deficits that we have
:29:53. > :29:58.got today, and you need to take tough decisions to do that. Chris is
:29:59. > :30:01.pretending they will, and that the WP secretary said they would be
:30:02. > :30:05.tougher on welfare than the Tories, but they have voted against every
:30:06. > :30:09.welfare cut being proposed in this government, so I have no idea where
:30:10. > :30:17.they are welfare. Sajid Javid, don't you have a real problem when the
:30:18. > :30:22.median wage in this country, the typical wage a worker gets, is no
:30:23. > :30:27.higher than it was in 2003? And under the OBR forecast, it does not
:30:28. > :30:35.even get to prerecession levels until after 2018. Clearly many
:30:36. > :30:41.families up and down the country are facing any key challenges, including
:30:42. > :30:45.with wages. If we are going to deal -- facing unique challenges. We have
:30:46. > :30:53.to deal with the problems. The recession was the deepest in living
:30:54. > :30:55.memory and left the country a lot poorer. Clearly there are
:30:56. > :31:03.consequences and dealing with that will take a lot of time. That is
:31:04. > :31:11.what the government is doing. It is a last 15 years, in effect, from
:31:12. > :31:18.2003. -- lost 15 years. The OBR is saying that GP will be a total of
:31:19. > :31:23.15% but wages will grow only by 7.5%. So even as the economy, by
:31:24. > :31:27.your standards, is beginning to repair itself and growth is
:31:28. > :31:32.beginning to return, the workers, people earning wages, are not
:31:33. > :31:36.sharing. Their wages will rise by half of the growth in the economy.
:31:37. > :31:42.We have a plan to deal with that. That is the evidence that was
:31:43. > :31:48.presented to Parliament yesterday. We need more graves, more jobs...
:31:49. > :31:52.This is until 2015, you have not got a plan. We have a plan that is
:31:53. > :31:57.working and if we deviate from this plan, if we abandon the
:31:58. > :31:59.government's economic plan and listen to the people it took about
:32:00. > :32:06.more spending, more borrowing, more debt, the situation would be a lot
:32:07. > :32:11.worse. I don't think anyone said you should abandon your plan. I just
:32:12. > :32:17.asked the question. He wants to abandon the plan. I am not sure he
:32:18. > :32:22.does now. Why did Ed Balls make such a Horlicks of yesterday? Plenty of
:32:23. > :32:28.conservatives would like to say that. 350 or so Conservative MPs
:32:29. > :32:31.were barracking and Jiri. I defy anybody to try to get their voice
:32:32. > :32:39.heard in that environment -- and jeering. All his posts, and utterly
:32:40. > :32:42.breathtaking complacency -- is hosts.
:32:43. > :32:52.The Chancellor is incomplete denial. For most people in our country,
:32:53. > :32:58.living standards are not rising. They are falling, year on year, on
:32:59. > :33:07.year. He used to say he would balance the books in 2015. Now he
:33:08. > :33:14.wants us to congratulate him for saying he will do it in 2019, Mr
:33:15. > :33:18.Speaker. Chris Leslie, you say that conservatives are out to say he did
:33:19. > :33:24.so badly. Can I tell you that off the record, myself and my own people
:33:25. > :33:28.have had three separate briefings from Labour aides, some of them
:33:29. > :33:35.close to Mr Miliband, essentially bad-mouthing Ed Balls. It is always
:33:36. > :33:37.off the record, isn't it? There are all sorts of people you might want
:33:38. > :33:44.to quote but until you can tell me... I am glad you played the clip.
:33:45. > :33:48.First of all, it showed Ed Balls communicating very loud and clear
:33:49. > :33:53.that this is a Chancellor who is out of touch with the cost of living
:33:54. > :33:57.crisis. He also, very loud and clear, made the point that this is a
:33:58. > :34:01.Chancellor who wants to be congratulated for failing to meet
:34:02. > :34:07.his plan to balance the books in 2015. We now have four more years of
:34:08. > :34:10.this large amount of borrowing. Remember, more borrowing in the
:34:11. > :34:15.three years since the general election than was borrowed by the
:34:16. > :34:19.previous government in the previous 13 years. They failed on their own
:34:20. > :34:23.targets and the cost of living crisis continues. We'll Ed Balls
:34:24. > :34:25.still be Shadow Chancellor this time, next year?