:00:41. > :00:46.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:47. > :00:50.The Chancellor gets 2014 off to a cheery start with a warning that
:00:51. > :00:55.another ?25 billion needs to be cut from public spending to balance the
:00:56. > :00:57.nation's books. As stormy weather and flooding
:00:58. > :01:00.continue to cause problems across the country, the Government's
:01:01. > :01:06.climate change envoy says more should be spent on flood defences.
:01:07. > :01:10.Criminal barristers in England stage a walk-out to protest against cuts
:01:11. > :01:14.to legal aid. And will the party leaders agree to
:01:15. > :01:19.another set of TV debates ahead of the general election next year? And
:01:20. > :01:26.will Nigel Farage get his own podium? We'll talk to the UKIP
:01:27. > :01:31.leader. All that in the next hour and to
:01:32. > :01:37.kick off our coverage for 2014 we asked for the best and brightest
:01:38. > :01:40.from the three main parties. They couldn't be with us so we've had to
:01:41. > :01:43.settle instead for Conservative MP Tim Loughton, Labour's Lucy Powell,
:01:44. > :01:51.and Julian Huppert for the Liberal Democrats. Welcome to you all. Let's
:01:52. > :01:54.start with the stormy weather that has been battering the UK over the
:01:55. > :01:58.holiday period. Strong winds and large waves are expected to cause
:01:59. > :02:01.further coastal flooding today. There are about 120 flood warnings
:02:02. > :02:10.in place in England, Scotland and Wales. In today's Guardian newspaper
:02:11. > :02:13.the Government's special envoy on climate change says Britain needs to
:02:14. > :02:21.face up to a radical change in weather conditions and invest much
:02:22. > :02:30.more in flood protection. This morning the Environment Secretary
:02:31. > :02:32.Owen Paterson said. Under different -- difficult circumstances, the
:02:33. > :02:38.government will be spending more this period and that is why we have
:02:39. > :02:42.extended the programme up until 2020. We will look to protect
:02:43. > :02:51.another 165,000 properties up to 2015 and another 300,000, should the
:02:52. > :02:54.plans be stuck to. Should the government be spending even more
:02:55. > :02:59.after the Christmas and New Year we have just experienced? The
:03:00. > :03:07.government is spending more than ever before, but we do need much
:03:08. > :03:10.more. How much more. We are seeing a change in climate, changes in the
:03:11. > :03:14.weather patterns which are bringing more storms. It is no accident it is
:03:15. > :03:20.the stormiest December we have had for 40 years, or something. Where we
:03:21. > :03:25.used to have protections when we have floods one in ten years, now
:03:26. > :03:31.huge amounts of money are needing to be spent to protect London and the
:03:32. > :03:37.country. We do need to try to reduce these problems because if we emit
:03:38. > :03:43.the way we are we will see this being a huge problem. You have a
:03:44. > :03:49.coastal constituency, should the government be spending more? Will we
:03:50. > :03:56.see more storms like this? Whatever your view on climate change is, we
:03:57. > :04:00.are staying more extreme weather. We will be building more houses as well
:04:01. > :04:05.and we make sure we don't build them on flood planes. It has continued
:04:06. > :04:12.over the last few years hasn't it? We have to make sure the money being
:04:13. > :04:15.invested that the money the developers are getting that that
:04:16. > :04:22.money does go into flood protection. It is reducing the flood planes. My
:04:23. > :04:30.constituents are fairly well pebble dashed not only from the coastal
:04:31. > :04:33.threat but a river burst its bank in my constituency into the airport. It
:04:34. > :04:42.is a false economy not to make sure there is adequate protection. New
:04:43. > :04:48.Year, a would Labour spend more money? You have to look at a budget
:04:49. > :04:53.across Defra. We have Owen Paterson who does not relieve climate change
:04:54. > :04:59.is happening, so he has not been prioritising these issues. We do
:05:00. > :05:03.need more investment in flood defences, but we also need to look
:05:04. > :05:06.up the bigger issues around climate change, and look at how many of
:05:07. > :05:11.these homes can be better protected through insurance. But the moment,
:05:12. > :05:15.many of them cannot get insurance. It is something we can and now with
:05:16. > :05:22.a water bill going through Parliament at the moment. Lucy
:05:23. > :05:26.Powell has repeated what Labour's Environment Secretary has said, it
:05:27. > :05:30.is because he is a sceptic on climate change and not focused on
:05:31. > :05:36.flood defences in the way he should be? It is a complete red herring.
:05:37. > :05:39.Extreme weather conditions are happening now and are likely to
:05:40. > :05:46.continue. The fact we are spending more money on flood defences, the
:05:47. > :05:50.fact Owen Paterson spends a lot of his Christmas going round seeing
:05:51. > :05:56.areas affect did buy it. It is happening, whatever the cause. We
:05:57. > :06:00.have got to make sure that with house-building we are going to have
:06:01. > :06:03.to have a lot of that money spent on adequate flood defences for those
:06:04. > :06:09.new houses and for existing communities vulnerable to flooding.
:06:10. > :06:18.Do you see it could be a prevention if you don't feel the storms will
:06:19. > :06:25.continue with the regularity that has been said? You only need to come
:06:26. > :06:31.to our constituencies to see the damage that has been cause. But that
:06:32. > :06:34.is the symptom and not the cause. That is why more money is going on
:06:35. > :06:39.to make sure we have rubber flood defences. Is it right the
:06:40. > :06:45.Environment Agency is cutting 1500 jobs? Environment Agency does a
:06:46. > :06:52.whole range of things. Coming back to the comment about climate change,
:06:53. > :06:56.whatever you think about climate change, we are seeing more extreme
:06:57. > :07:01.weather events. That is because it is a changing climate. It is
:07:02. > :07:06.obvious. They argue climate change is not happening, we are just seeing
:07:07. > :07:11.changes in the weather! We need more action. You are right in terms of
:07:12. > :07:17.planning issues. Too many houses were built on flood planes without
:07:18. > :07:23.defences that were necessary. We have to take steps to deal with it
:07:24. > :07:28.urgently. It will need more money. I am just saying it is a red herring.
:07:29. > :07:38.There is a problem, we have to deal with it now. Let's leave that there.
:07:39. > :07:41.Now it's time for our Daily Quiz. The Education Secretary Michael Gove
:07:42. > :07:44.has got into a bit of a spat with Baldrick from Blackadder, otherwise
:07:45. > :07:51.known as Sir Tony Robinson, over the origins of the First World War. What
:07:52. > :08:10.does Baldrick think was the cause of the First World War?
:08:11. > :08:18.At the end of the show we will ask to see if anyone can remember their
:08:19. > :08:22.Blackadder. So while the government is trying to deal with the current
:08:23. > :08:25.storms, let's look at a more long-range forecast for the
:08:26. > :08:28.political weather in the year ahead. This morning, George Osborne brought
:08:29. > :08:32.us all firmly back to earth by saying the government will need to
:08:33. > :08:35.find an extra ?25 billion of cuts to bring the deficit under control, the
:08:36. > :08:38.Chancellor said the welfare budget will have to be looked at again
:08:39. > :08:48.although he played down the prospect of an end to some of the universal
:08:49. > :08:53.pension benefits. If 2014 is a year of hard truths for
:08:54. > :08:56.our country, it starts with this one, Britain should never return to
:08:57. > :09:01.the levels of spending. We either have to return rowing to the
:09:02. > :09:07.dangerous levels that threatens our stability, or raise taxes so much.
:09:08. > :09:16.Government will have to be smaller and so will to the welfare system.
:09:17. > :09:19.Others things we can predict with certainty is that in March Mr
:09:20. > :09:22.Osborne will be presenting his penultimate budget before the next
:09:23. > :09:25.general election, all eyes will be on how he'll try to neutralise the
:09:26. > :09:29.cost of living debate which Labour has been able to attack the
:09:30. > :09:32.government with. There'll be high pressure on all the main parties in
:09:33. > :09:35.May for the European elections. UKIP's Nigel Farage has said he's
:09:36. > :09:38.aiming to blow the other parties away and top the poll, a result that
:09:39. > :09:42.could cause squalid conditions in the Conservative Party. Potentially
:09:43. > :09:45.the biggest event not just of this year but of the last few hundred
:09:46. > :09:50.years is the Scottish Independence referendum in the autumn. The polls
:09:51. > :09:53.are currently in favour of Scotland staying in the union, however Alex
:09:54. > :09:59.Salmond's SNP believe there is all to play for. And could there be more
:10:00. > :10:01.heavy weather ahead for the coalition? Both sides are already
:10:02. > :10:04.looking to differentiate themselves from each other, will those voices
:10:05. > :10:13.calling for an early split become louder, or will it just be a storm
:10:14. > :10:18.in a teacup? In the last few minutes, Nick Clegg
:10:19. > :10:24.has been giving his reaction to George Osborne's react should to the
:10:25. > :10:34.cuts to the welfare system that are needed. It is driven by two very
:10:35. > :10:40.clear ideological impulses. One is to remorselessly cut back the state.
:10:41. > :10:47.Just cut back the state. And secondly, and that is what they have
:10:48. > :10:50.said now, I think they are making a monumental mistake in doing so, but
:10:51. > :10:55.they said the only people in society, the only section of society
:10:56. > :11:04.which will bear the burden of further fiscal cuts of a
:11:05. > :11:09.working-class poor. George Osborne is making a mistake by stating he
:11:10. > :11:15.wants to take ?12 billion more in benefits cuts after the next
:11:16. > :11:20.election if he is still Chancellor? It was a -- mistake to think
:11:21. > :11:26.everything was solved and we can carry on with the regime we had
:11:27. > :11:32.before. We are still borrowing ?100 billion a year. There is large-scale
:11:33. > :11:38.public support for the further reining in of welfare, as long as it
:11:39. > :11:42.has been done fairly. If we are serious about making sure this
:11:43. > :11:46.government and this country is living within its means, welfare
:11:47. > :11:53.spending has to be part of the savings. And at a time, let's
:11:54. > :11:57.remember when we are seeing big increases in employment, 1.2 million
:11:58. > :12:04.jobs since the last election. That is the best route to increase --
:12:05. > :12:11.decrease Walther spending. You don't think it is a mistake to make
:12:12. > :12:15.another one point -- ?12 billion of cuts to the welfare bill? If you are
:12:16. > :12:21.making cuts in the household, you look at the biggest goals first.
:12:22. > :12:25.Welfare is still the biggest hill. We need to make sure we are making
:12:26. > :12:32.savings and making them fairly. Whose fault is it the government is
:12:33. > :12:39.on course to borrow ?111 billion this year? You need to be asking
:12:40. > :12:43.Lucy that. You have been in government since 2010 and George
:12:44. > :12:47.Osborne has failed to deliver on all of the measures he set out in his
:12:48. > :12:53.first emergency budget, in terms of deficit reduction, in terms of debt
:12:54. > :12:58.falling as a proportion of GDP and eliminating the structural deficit.
:12:59. > :13:04.Whose fault is it this government is still having to borrow ?111 billion
:13:05. > :13:08.this year? It is the extent of the problem we inherited and what is
:13:09. > :13:13.going on in the rest of the world. We have cut the deficit why more
:13:14. > :13:18.than a third. It is taking longer to balance the books than George
:13:19. > :13:23.Osborne predict did and more than any of us would have liked. But we
:13:24. > :13:27.took over a huge deficit and a shipwreck of an economy. The fact
:13:28. > :13:33.the Eurozone, with whom we trade with a lot has been performing
:13:34. > :13:36.sluggishly. The surveys today say it is likely we will have the highest
:13:37. > :13:43.improvement in manufacturing across Europe. Everything Labour predicted
:13:44. > :13:50.has not happened. We have got growth back, unemployment is falling and
:13:51. > :13:59.has fallen consistently. Consumer spending is up, there is a recovery.
:14:00. > :14:07.Labour got it wrong. Not at all. There wouldn't be growth? There
:14:08. > :14:14.hasn't been growth. There wasn't a triple dip recession. We did not
:14:15. > :14:18.predict a triple dip recession. He will find what we are saying on
:14:19. > :14:24.every measure George Osborne set himself on 2010, he has failed. He
:14:25. > :14:32.said the deficit would he gone by 2015. We know that the deficit won't
:14:33. > :14:37.even be halved by 2015. He said we would have 7.6% of growth. We now
:14:38. > :14:43.know we are looking at 2.5% growth over that period. This is why
:14:44. > :14:48.families across the country are paying the price for the stagnant
:14:49. > :14:52.growth over three years. Families up and down this country are paying the
:14:53. > :14:57.price for that stagnant growth through prices going up much
:14:58. > :15:01.faster. You would have added to the deficit and therefore in turn added
:15:02. > :15:08.to the debt by spending an awful lot more and risked... No, we said we
:15:09. > :15:12.would have halved the deficit by 2015, which is more than this
:15:13. > :15:19.government will have achieved in the same period. Let's go back to George
:15:20. > :15:24.Osborne, he said 2014 will be a year of hard truths. I find that pretty
:15:25. > :15:27.appalling. He wants to come to my constituency and meet families who
:15:28. > :15:32.are making hard choices and hard truths in their lives every day.
:15:33. > :15:36.Having to choose whether to go to food ranks, or heating their homes.
:15:37. > :15:44.Having to choose to pave the childcare waiting for a text message
:15:45. > :15:52.that morning to see if they have work on their 0-hours contract.
:15:53. > :15:57.Would you be making more cuts? The welfare bill needs to come down, but
:15:58. > :16:01.it needs to come down by getting people back to work. Reduce the
:16:02. > :16:07.number of in work benefits we pay like introducing a living wage.
:16:08. > :16:14.Would you increase taxes? We said we would look at pensioner benefits so
:16:15. > :16:19.the winter fuel allowance. There are things we have said we will look at
:16:20. > :16:25.that are hard choices. That will only bring you a couple of hundred
:16:26. > :16:31.million. Let's have a look at ?25 billion worth of cuts, a substantial
:16:32. > :16:41.figure. Would you raise taxes? Would you reinstate the 50p top rate of
:16:42. > :16:46.tax? We have not said yet. You ought to be careful before you start
:16:47. > :16:51.crowing about your economic record. 2015, another coalition between the
:16:52. > :16:56.Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives, would you take...
:16:57. > :17:00.No, just imagine! Would you agree to another ?12 billion of cuts to
:17:01. > :17:05.welfare? I do not think it is worth speculating over that sort of thing.
:17:06. > :17:10.The Conservatives are making clear they would do that. I do not think
:17:11. > :17:14.the approach that George Osborne has to the state is that it has to be
:17:15. > :17:18.permanently smaller. We have to balance the books, I agree, but does
:17:19. > :17:22.that not mean a permanently smaller state. This marriage tax allowance
:17:23. > :17:28.that the Conservatives are pushing, about ?700 million, a lot of
:17:29. > :17:34.people... That is ideological, not economics. It certainly is economic.
:17:35. > :17:40.But you just said it is tiny. Let's look at the bigger picture. Can I
:17:41. > :17:44.just come back on what was said earlier? Labour are in an easy
:17:45. > :17:49.position, they said they would have cut the deficit by spending less,
:17:50. > :17:52.but you never get any specifics. I think that is fascinating, because
:17:53. > :17:56.we have to get some specifics. I used to be leader of an opposition
:17:57. > :18:00.group on a council and it is easy to say, I would do it better, but we
:18:01. > :18:06.have to say exactly what we would do, and I have not seen that from
:18:07. > :18:10.Labour. The system fell apart for Labour, it is odd to blame the
:18:11. > :18:16.doctors for the fact that the patient has not got up. The real
:18:17. > :18:21.problem was the collapse in 2008, and we finally see our way out of
:18:22. > :18:25.that. I wish it had happened sooner, but I have heard nothing other than
:18:26. > :18:30.hope from Labour. Look at the welfare budget, I am not asking you
:18:31. > :18:33.to say what the manifesto will be, but Nick Clegg has said he would
:18:34. > :18:37.only sanction going back to the welfare budget if the Government
:18:38. > :18:41.began by removing the winter fuel payments from wealthy pensioners? Do
:18:42. > :18:45.you agree with that? It seems very odd to say you take money from the
:18:46. > :18:49.poorest in society while providing extremely rich people with benefits
:18:50. > :18:52.like that. We have to have that stronger economy, and we need a
:18:53. > :18:55.fairer society, which means supporting people at the bottom.
:18:56. > :19:00.That is why we have pushed to take so many people out of tax, and we
:19:01. > :19:03.would like nobody on minimum wage pay any tax. That would be a huge
:19:04. > :19:07.step towards a living wage. There is more we can do, a mansion tax so
:19:08. > :19:14.that people with a lot of capital pay more. Would that be a red line
:19:15. > :19:18.in the sand for you? It does not work. It just does not bring in the
:19:19. > :19:22.sort of money that they think it will. There are many other things
:19:23. > :19:25.that we can do before that. What about protection for pensioners?
:19:26. > :19:32.David Cameron and George Osborne have kicked off an election cycle by
:19:33. > :19:35.saying, we are going to protect pensioners, we are going to protect
:19:36. > :19:40.the triple lock, and there has been no discussion about means tested
:19:41. > :19:44.benefits. Are they right? I have a high pensioner population in my
:19:45. > :19:50.constituency, and it is an important issue. We were right to bring in
:19:51. > :19:54.this triple lock and give... But post-2015, is it right to retain
:19:55. > :19:58.its? Old on, we have said quite rightly that we will maintain it for
:19:59. > :20:02.at least the next five years, for the term of the next Parliament, and
:20:03. > :20:06.that is right. We need to give stability to them. What about means
:20:07. > :20:12.tested benefits? That is something we will have to look at, I'm quite
:20:13. > :20:15.relaxed on that, and in constituencies like mine, there are
:20:16. > :20:21.pensioners who have retired with good pensions who are getting a lot
:20:22. > :20:24.of the free bonus schemes which are essential for many people but not
:20:25. > :20:30.essential for some. It is something we need to look at. It is only fair
:20:31. > :20:35.that we should do that. It is crazy to pay heating allowances to people
:20:36. > :20:38.living abroad as well. A blokes like David Cameron and George Osborne may
:20:39. > :20:44.want to keep that, or that is what they will say. -- it looks as
:20:45. > :20:51.though. Will you protect the triple lock posts 2015? We have said we
:20:52. > :20:55.will protect it. Post-2015? Yes, we have said we will protect it.
:20:56. > :21:01.Miliband refused to commit this morning. I think we are clear that
:21:02. > :21:06.we support the triple lock. So the state pension will rise at 2.5% with
:21:07. > :21:10.wages or prices, whatever is the highest? What we have got to look at
:21:11. > :21:14.is how this is the table in the long run, so you have to look at means
:21:15. > :21:18.testing some of the additional support that pensioners received
:21:19. > :21:25.that, as Tim says, many do not need. We also need to look at how we can,
:21:26. > :21:28.you know, continue to make sure that the retirement age is sustainable
:21:29. > :21:30.over that period of time as well. You have got to look at how the
:21:31. > :21:35.Pensions Bill is sustainable as well, but Labour will take no
:21:36. > :21:41.message here from the other parties. When we came into office in 1997,
:21:42. > :21:46.many, many, many pensioners were living below the poverty line. That
:21:47. > :21:51.situation has, frankly, largely gone, in the sense that
:21:52. > :21:58.pensioners... How much did the state pension rise during your time in
:21:59. > :22:03.office? At times not enough. 75p! There were other measures we brought
:22:04. > :22:09.in to ensure that pensioners... It did not rise under Labour very much
:22:10. > :22:14.at all. It has gone up 21% against earnings going up 8%. We will have
:22:15. > :22:18.to leave at there, we will have endless time to discuss economic
:22:19. > :22:20.plans over the next few months. My my criminal barristers have walked
:22:21. > :22:27.out of court in England this morning in a protest against changes to
:22:28. > :22:31.legal aid. The government says reforms would cut ?200 million from
:22:32. > :22:35.the ?2 billion per year legal aid bill. Lawyers argued the cuts, which
:22:36. > :22:42.could see these four by 30%, will reduce the representation available
:22:43. > :22:45.to defendants. -- the fees. The Justice Minister said it was up to
:22:46. > :22:50.the profession to get its house in order. There are challenges at the
:22:51. > :22:55.moment, too many lawyers chasing too little work, crime is going down,
:22:56. > :22:59.but that is a matter for the legal sector to sort out for itself. My
:23:00. > :23:03.responsibility is to the hard-working taxpayer who funds the
:23:04. > :23:06.legal aid bill, and my responsibility is to ensure that
:23:07. > :23:10.those people who qualify for legal aid to have proper representation,
:23:11. > :23:15.and I'm confident that that will happen. With us now is Sarah Forshaw
:23:16. > :23:19.QC, a criminal barrister leads the southeastern circuit and represents
:23:20. > :23:23.3000 lawyers. Welcome to the programme, what is the problem with
:23:24. > :23:27.these changes? It is really about removing quality from the criminal
:23:28. > :23:33.justice system, and what has happened is that since 2007, when
:23:34. > :23:37.the rates were set by an independent body and everyone agreed to them,
:23:38. > :23:42.the rates for criminal state funded lawyers have been successively
:23:43. > :23:47.slashed over the years. If the recent proposals come into force,
:23:48. > :23:54.what it means for the criminal bar is that the fees will have been cut
:23:55. > :23:59.by 41% in real terms over the last six years, 41%. Now, if that
:24:00. > :24:04.happens, the best criminal advocates will move out of the criminal
:24:05. > :24:08.justice system, they will diversify and do something else. But what it
:24:09. > :24:12.means for the public is that the specialist advocates who prosecute
:24:13. > :24:18.and defend the most serious cases in the country will no longer be doing
:24:19. > :24:22.the job. There are not, actually, any good applicants coming into the
:24:23. > :24:27.system for the sort of day they are getting. That makes it sound as if
:24:28. > :24:30.money is the overriding reasons for those sorts of lawyers and
:24:31. > :24:35.barristers and solicitors who take on legal aid work, that is the
:24:36. > :24:39.reason they do it. Actually, the reason... Nobody comes into criminal
:24:40. > :24:44.law to make money, everyone knows that. If you want to make money, you
:24:45. > :24:48.can earn ten times what criminal lawyers are in any other sphere of
:24:49. > :24:54.law. We do it because it is formidably important to society. For
:24:55. > :24:58.example, to prosecute the most serious murders and the most serious
:24:59. > :25:07.terrorist cases, and also to defend. And for that, we at the
:25:08. > :25:12.criminal bar accept state funded fees, provided those state funded
:25:13. > :25:16.fees do not become completely unsustainable for the self-employed
:25:17. > :25:21.bar. Tim Loughton, that does sound like a very plausible argument, this
:25:22. > :25:25.is a fundamental right, isn't it, for people who cannot afford to pay
:25:26. > :25:29.for their own defence? You know, in many instances, it is going to be
:25:30. > :25:34.cut to levels that decent lawyers will walk. Well, it is crucial we
:25:35. > :25:38.have legal aid, nobody is suggesting we should abolish it, but we spend
:25:39. > :25:42.?2 billion per year on legal aid at the moment, it is virtually the most
:25:43. > :25:54.lavishly financed legal aid system in the world. Is it? We spend twice
:25:55. > :25:57.what they do in New Zealand, three times what they spend in Canada.
:25:58. > :25:59.They have a similar system to us. That is utterly misleading, and it
:26:00. > :26:02.is the mantra of the Ministry of Justice, every time this is raised.
:26:03. > :26:06.It is utterly misleading, and I will tell you for why - you cannot
:26:07. > :26:09.compare apples and pears, and that is what you are doing. In this
:26:10. > :26:14.country, we have an adversarial system, we have jury trial, and it
:26:15. > :26:19.means, actually, that you pay more for prosecution and defence
:26:20. > :26:22.investigation June because of the jury trial. If you compare
:26:23. > :26:27.like-for-like, and in fact an independent body have done just
:26:28. > :26:32.that, we are tenth cheapest out of 14 European countries. The countries
:26:33. > :26:38.I quoted have similar systems to our own, that is the point. Tenth
:26:39. > :26:42.cheapest out of 14 if you compare cost per head of legal aid, because
:26:43. > :26:48.of course we have a bigger population in this country. We have
:26:49. > :26:52.had a huge rise in legal costs. The department for justice cannot be
:26:53. > :26:56.immune for the savings we have to make in public saving. We were
:26:57. > :27:01.financing an awful lot of cases that have been brought on spurious
:27:02. > :27:05.grounds as well. We have simply got to make savings. We have still got
:27:06. > :27:09.rather a lot of barristers doing criminal work earning more than
:27:10. > :27:14.?100,000 per year. They are not on the poverty line. I'm afraid that is
:27:15. > :27:18.misleading, there have been some grossly misleading figures being
:27:19. > :27:22.peddled... Do you accept the perception, and maybe it is wrong,
:27:23. > :27:25.is that barristers are hardly even in this line of work are badly paid?
:27:26. > :27:30.If you look at the average, there are those making an awful lot of
:27:31. > :27:34.money. That is only because, I am afraid, people are fooled by the
:27:35. > :27:39.misleading figures that are put out. You have to read the small print,
:27:40. > :27:47.and what impact is happening is that 75% of state funded barristers earn
:27:48. > :27:51.less than ?50,000. Now, that is the business turnover, because they are
:27:52. > :27:56.self employed. When the Ministry of Justice puts out figures like
:27:57. > :28:00.?100,000 per year, I am afraid it includes 20% VAT. Because we
:28:01. > :28:04.self-employed, that goes straight back to the government, so you can
:28:05. > :28:08.have those figures before it is taxable. Should we be making these
:28:09. > :28:12.cuts? There is agreement we need to save money and the legal aid
:28:13. > :28:17.budget, and the Labour manifesto said they would cut legal aid to
:28:18. > :28:21.protect frontline services. The question is how to do it, and there
:28:22. > :28:25.are expensive cases, and you could save a lot of money if the courts
:28:26. > :28:29.system worked more smoothly. That is where there is waste, isn't it? I
:28:30. > :28:33.spent some time in a local magistrate court, and it could be
:28:34. > :28:37.run more effectively and efficiently. There are other ideas
:28:38. > :28:40.which are worth looking at, insurance to deal with fraud
:28:41. > :28:43.trials, using restraint assets to pay for legal aid, which you cannot
:28:44. > :28:46.do at the moment, and the French system where money held by law firms
:28:47. > :28:52.is looked after by the government, and the difference in interest rates
:28:53. > :28:58.is used to fund legal aid, raising hundreds of millions of pounds per
:28:59. > :29:01.year. So this policy is wrong? We fought to improve it from the
:29:02. > :29:04.original proposals, and it has changed, but I would like to see
:29:05. > :29:09.more work on the alternative so that we can find other ways of paying for
:29:10. > :29:14.it so that the taxpayer does not pay as much. We do need to keep the
:29:15. > :29:18.important role of legal aid in many areas. What would your constituents
:29:19. > :29:22.think about this? Do they feel this is a fundamental right that needs to
:29:23. > :29:32.be protected, or that savings needed be made in the same way as other
:29:33. > :29:36.parts of public life? Absolutely savings need to be made and Julian
:29:37. > :29:43.has outlined a number of good ideas. But I see a number of constituents,
:29:44. > :29:46.poor constituents, who need legal advice and can no longer get it
:29:47. > :29:50.because they no longer qualify for legal aid or there are situations
:29:51. > :29:55.where they have to pay some up front fee to do it. As an MP I am getting
:29:56. > :30:01.more people coming to me for legal advice, which I cannot offer them
:30:02. > :30:04.because they are no longer getting legal aid. I would support the cuts
:30:05. > :30:10.to the overall budget, but what we are seeing on this government is
:30:11. > :30:15.they are losing the professionals across the board. They ploughed on
:30:16. > :30:18.with NHS reforms despite Doc has telling them not to do it, they did
:30:19. > :30:22.the same in education, and now with barristers. Do you remember those
:30:23. > :30:31.heady days in 2010 when Cleggmania was at its height? When the Lib Dem
:30:32. > :30:36.leader was propelled to new heights after a series of good performances
:30:37. > :30:39.on the new leaders' TV debates? Well after that, there were many in the
:30:40. > :30:45.Conservative Party who questioned the wisdom of agreeing to the
:30:46. > :30:53.debates. So will they happen again? Labour made it clear that Ed
:30:54. > :30:56.Miliband would take part and Nick Clegg said they would be up for it.
:30:57. > :31:02.Here's a reminder of what they looked like. Who do you want to be
:31:03. > :31:08.your next Prime Minister? There is a lot to this job, but I know how to
:31:09. > :31:13.run the economy. You are hearing desperate stuff from someone in a
:31:14. > :31:17.desperate state. You have heard from Labour and Gordon Brown but if you
:31:18. > :31:23.earn ?20,000 or over, you are considered rich. We are not as a
:31:24. > :31:28.nation going to be able to balance the books, fill the black hole in
:31:29. > :31:33.public finances unless we do it with fairness. We have got to support the
:31:34. > :31:39.recovery until it is fully established and then Mike plan comes
:31:40. > :31:44.into place. But to take money out of the plan now for ideological
:31:45. > :31:48.reasons, you put the economy at risk. He tried to frighten people
:31:49. > :31:53.saying the Conservative Party would take away benefits, we will keep the
:31:54. > :32:00.winter payments. He is trying to frighten people and he should be
:32:01. > :32:04.ashamed. Here they go again. We are desperate to get this country
:32:05. > :32:10.through the recovery and that is what I intend to do, but it is up to
:32:11. > :32:13.the people to decide and it is your decision. That was Gordon Brown and
:32:14. > :32:16.that was then. Joining this little television
:32:17. > :32:25.debate is the UKIP leader Nigel Farage. Should Nigel be allowed to
:32:26. > :32:31.take part? The more I speak to people in my patch, the more the
:32:32. > :32:35.detail does not closer scrutiny. UKIP, when you read the small
:32:36. > :32:41.print, you will see it is hot air with a charismatic and teeming
:32:42. > :32:46.person in charge and not much else. Nigel, they were billed as debates
:32:47. > :32:53.between people who could be Prime Minister. How anybody thought the
:32:54. > :32:56.Liberal Democrats who had not been in power since Lloyd George could
:32:57. > :33:04.produce a Prime Minister is beyond me. So that failed the test. Deputy
:33:05. > :33:12.is a bit better than you have managed? Policy has changed since
:33:13. > :33:18.2010. We have seen radical changes in Scottish and Northern Ireland
:33:19. > :33:22.politics. In 2009 when UKIP came second in the Euro elections, we
:33:23. > :33:27.were told it would not happen in domestic elections. But this year we
:33:28. > :33:32.got a quarter of the vote. UKIP is a significant force in reddish
:33:33. > :33:38.politics, polling double where the Lib Dems are. Frankly, to exclude
:33:39. > :33:41.UKIP from these debates would bubbly give the benefit of the underdog,
:33:42. > :33:47.because it would look like the political class closing ranks on
:33:48. > :33:53.itself. Do you think the Green party leader, Natalie Bennett be in these
:33:54. > :33:58.debates themselves? They have an MP, they run Ryton Council, but the
:33:59. > :34:05.overall share of the national vote is about 2%. New have two sets and
:34:06. > :34:11.sensible markers and barriers. In America, there is a law on this. If
:34:12. > :34:16.you are polling at 15% of the vote, you are allowed to take part. Would
:34:17. > :34:26.you be happy to have Natalie Bennett? I don't think they are a
:34:27. > :34:30.political party. I can see why Nigel is desperate to be in there. It is a
:34:31. > :34:39.party with a leader and nothing else. They might want to ditch me by
:34:40. > :34:43.then. We have just heard from the CBI that membership from the EU
:34:44. > :34:50.rings in ?3000 per person a year into this country. People realise
:34:51. > :34:57.UKIP are bad that the country and working against our own
:34:58. > :35:00.self-interest. I can see why Nigel desperately wants to be in and does
:35:01. > :35:07.not want other parties to be in as well. He has not said he does not
:35:08. > :35:14.want them in. Ed Miliband is keen and to be relaxed about Nigel Farage
:35:15. > :35:18.being in there, but I can see why it would harm the Conservatives more
:35:19. > :35:21.than Labour? The important thing about what Ed Miliband and Douglas
:35:22. > :35:27.Alexander have been saying is we need to resolve this issue. We're
:35:28. > :35:32.not far away from the election, 18 months to go. Everyone needs to get
:35:33. > :35:37.round the table and sort it out. David Cameron was keen on the
:35:38. > :35:42.debates when he was in opposition, and he seems a lot less keen on it
:35:43. > :35:48.now. Will these debates happen? Who will be on them? Do you think they
:35:49. > :35:54.should happen? I think they are a good thing. Initially, Ed Miliband
:35:55. > :36:00.said yes, I think Nigel should be involved. After the South seals
:36:01. > :36:07.by-election when we got 20%, he has changed his tune. -- South Shields.
:36:08. > :36:15.There is a big shift from Labour. Do you support the idea of Nigel? It is
:36:16. > :36:21.a bit of a stretch to have somebody in the leader's debates who does not
:36:22. > :36:25.have an MP in Parliament. I am not about stifling the debate, but you
:36:26. > :36:30.will get other parties saying if Nigel is there, we have an MP and
:36:31. > :36:35.run some local government, why aren't we included? These are issues
:36:36. > :36:39.that need to be resolved. The public want a debate between people who are
:36:40. > :36:44.likely to be running the country. That is what we saw last time and
:36:45. > :36:48.they did bring the last general election alive. As much as we might
:36:49. > :36:55.not like the format. What is interesting with the polling is 14%
:36:56. > :36:57.of people think it should be between the Conservative and Labour leaders.
:36:58. > :37:05.But they are the most likely by far to become the next Prime Minister.
:37:06. > :37:08.Although having a coalition, you can see why it worked for the three
:37:09. > :37:14.parties? When people are asked the question should UKIP be involved in
:37:15. > :37:19.these debates, 50% say they should be. There is a danger of course, the
:37:20. > :37:23.lesson from last time is Nick Clegg had set those debates and did not
:37:24. > :37:31.translate in terms of MPs, did it? In the end, how much can you hope to
:37:32. > :37:38.benefit from it? I will say this, UKIP was consistently at 7% in the
:37:39. > :37:45.polls until 20 ten. Overnight we fell to 3.5% and then we stayed
:37:46. > :37:49.there. It damaged is quite badly. I am making the case we are a real
:37:50. > :37:54.part of British politics. If we are still polling double them what the
:37:55. > :37:59.liberal democrats are, then we should be involved. I think we are
:38:00. > :38:06.getting to hunger up on the debates. They are a small part of the
:38:07. > :38:13.election campaign. -- to hunger. They started off, Nick Clegg did
:38:14. > :38:19.well. They did not agree with him enough to vote for him at the
:38:20. > :38:30.election because he lost seats. Got minimal votes. They ended up in
:38:31. > :38:34.government. That is another debate. I have no problem with Nigel being
:38:35. > :38:39.part of those debates. The more spotlight is put on what they stand
:38:40. > :38:43.for and some of the dubious characters standing for UKIP around
:38:44. > :38:47.the country, the more Nigel might come to think it was in such a good
:38:48. > :38:55.idea. You are staying with us for the next discussion.
:38:56. > :38:57.The start of 2014 removed restrictions on Romanians and
:38:58. > :39:07.Bulgarians working in the UK. The government wants to stop them
:39:08. > :39:12.claiming benefits and accessing the NHS for the first three months.
:39:13. > :39:18.David Cameron wrist straight it is aimed by restricting the number of
:39:19. > :39:23.EU immigrants by striking a deal with his fellow EU leaders. There
:39:24. > :39:29.are good parts to movement within the EU. Many British people take the
:39:30. > :39:34.advantage of going to live and work elsewhere. And there are people with
:39:35. > :39:38.skills coming to Britain and contributing to our economy. The two
:39:39. > :39:43.things have gone wrong, one is movement to claim benefits, we need
:39:44. > :39:48.to crack down on that. And secondly, what has gone wrong, and I think the
:39:49. > :39:53.people who founded the EU, did not think this would happen is that the
:39:54. > :40:00.scale of the movement has been so big. Could that have Lib Dems
:40:01. > :40:07.support? It is a ridiculous idea and he and the Home Office should focus
:40:08. > :40:12.on doing things correctly, like ringing back the exit checks. It is
:40:13. > :40:17.a bad idea in so many ways. There are millions of Brits who live
:40:18. > :40:27.overseas. You get into some tit for tat, which Brits would be evicted
:40:28. > :40:31.from Spain to come back here. I think many in the Conservative Party
:40:32. > :40:39.are panicked by UKIP. David Cameron is panicked. All sorts of weird
:40:40. > :40:47.machinations. It is a self-defeating strategy. It helps UKIP, but it is a
:40:48. > :40:54.bad idea. We benefit as a country for people coming here to work and
:40:55. > :41:00.contribute. And fiscally, we get more money from taxes. Do you agree
:41:01. > :41:06.with a policy to restrict access to benefits by new migrants from the
:41:07. > :41:09.EU? It is reasonable that when somebody comes into this country
:41:10. > :41:13.they have to wait for a period. I have no idea with sticking to the
:41:14. > :41:19.rules to stop people abusing that free movement. But free movement
:41:20. > :41:27.does benefit us. Do you agree with him? I don't. I am in favour of free
:41:28. > :41:32.movement with in the EU, but it cannot be completely free. It is a
:41:33. > :41:38.cornerstone of the European Union. It is how the European Union was set
:41:39. > :41:45.up, free movement of people. Are you saying you want to change that? That
:41:46. > :41:55.is how the EU was set up. We have 28 nations with a lot of Eastern
:41:56. > :41:58.European nations. We never envisaged those sorts of economic migration
:41:59. > :42:03.pressure is back in the early days of the founding of the EU. That is
:42:04. > :42:10.why I think the founding EU principle was right, which is why it
:42:11. > :42:15.should be changed. I have signed the amendment that we should delay
:42:16. > :42:21.opening our doors. It is not whether it is right or wrong, but is it
:42:22. > :42:25.possible? It is impossible. Had they kept the club to about 15 members,
:42:26. > :42:32.this would not have become an issue. Julian makes the point it's go and
:42:33. > :42:37.retire and live in Spain, we have a reciprocal deal with the health
:42:38. > :42:40.service and France. As soon as we open the door to the poor
:42:41. > :42:50.countries, the former communist countries, it was obvious what was
:42:51. > :42:54.going to happen. What has happened? The government thought 13,000 people
:42:55. > :43:01.a year would come and 800,000 came in the first two years. The baulk
:43:02. > :43:07.area and Romanian issue, Tim talks about how poor they are, yes. But
:43:08. > :43:10.Bulgaria have become full members of the European Union with complete
:43:11. > :43:16.open access to this country. The argument we are making is we could
:43:17. > :43:19.extend work permits to people from these countries, but it is
:43:20. > :43:29.irresponsible with high youth unemployment. Who in Europe would
:43:30. > :43:36.listen to David Cameron? David Cameron is one of the biggest
:43:37. > :43:39.advocates of free movement. We have spent the last few months going
:43:40. > :43:44.round European capitals seeing ministers and what is interesting is
:43:45. > :43:48.the number of them who said we were wrong to let in some of these new
:43:49. > :44:01.accession countries. We need to limit the way we have free
:44:02. > :44:08.movement. Which country. It should have happened before January the
:44:09. > :44:13.1st. I believe we should defy the EU and say we are going to have
:44:14. > :44:19.restrictions now. There are a number of countries across the EU who are
:44:20. > :44:27.sympathetic... Who is that? I have been to Scandinavian countries. They
:44:28. > :44:33.want to limit that elements? We should never have accepted those
:44:34. > :44:37.countries on that basis. If we cannot re-negotiate membership with
:44:38. > :44:41.the EU in the future, we need a referendum. It is something which
:44:42. > :44:49.Nigel is in danger of completely undermining. Your leaders have
:44:50. > :44:54.apologised for opening the doors, as they say, to Eastern European
:44:55. > :44:57.migrants from other parts of the EU. What do you say to David Cameron's
:44:58. > :45:04.suggestion that you can limit the free movement of people within the
:45:05. > :45:09.EU. Does Labour agree? You cannot under the existing treaties. Would
:45:10. > :45:13.you like to change it? There are other things you can do now that
:45:14. > :45:18.would limit the free movement of people in terms of the types of jobs
:45:19. > :45:22.available, we have recruitment agencies in these countries, only
:45:23. > :45:29.advertising jobs in Britain in Poland, Romania and Bulgaria because
:45:30. > :45:33.they are looking for low-wage, low skilled workers. We need to drive up
:45:34. > :45:38.wages and skills in this country and change the outlook here, so you
:45:39. > :45:41.cannot have undercutting that we have at the moment with temporary
:45:42. > :45:47.agency workers being paid less than what are largely resident workers.
:45:48. > :45:56.People are going to come here while there is a framework, work for them
:45:57. > :45:59.to do and well paid work to them, but not well paid work to British
:46:00. > :46:03.people. You have got to change those loopholes and take on things like
:46:04. > :46:11.bang masters who are bringing in groups of people under Djourou S.
:46:12. > :46:18.Landlords who are putting a dozen people in a small flat, conditions
:46:19. > :46:30.we should not be allowing workers to work in in this country. Yesterday
:46:31. > :46:36.Nigel was read a part of the rivers of blood speech, was Nigel Wright to
:46:37. > :46:42.say he agreed with the central principle of that? No, not at all,
:46:43. > :46:49.absolutely not. My grandfather came near to this country from Ireland,
:46:50. > :46:54.and when he came to this country in the 1940s, he was treated like he
:46:55. > :46:58.was a leper. And now everyone celebrates the Irish traditions and
:46:59. > :47:02.culture, and everyone wants to be Irish. Immigration is a long
:47:03. > :47:06.tradition of this country, it always comes with problems, that is why you
:47:07. > :47:10.have to manage it carefully, and why you have to look at the issues that
:47:11. > :47:17.drive that immigration and how you can, you know, mitigate the impact
:47:18. > :47:21.that it has an... The mistakes that Labour say they made themselves? Do
:47:22. > :47:25.you wish you had and said that? If those words had been used, I would
:47:26. > :47:29.not up and said the same way. I was read a piece of a speech that said
:47:30. > :47:35.if people cannot get hospital beds, if people cannot get jobs, right,
:47:36. > :47:37.then there will be unhappiness within communities. If you go to
:47:38. > :47:42.Boston in Lincolnshire, as an example, the accident and emergency
:47:43. > :47:48.waiting limits have doubled, British people are discriminated against if
:47:49. > :47:51.they want to get jobs working in the fields, because the gangmasters have
:47:52. > :47:55.the business, and it suits the big landowners to have cheap labour. You
:47:56. > :48:00.begin to understand and realise why immigration is now the most
:48:01. > :48:04.important problem in this country. It is the inflammatory language
:48:05. > :48:08.which you are now endorsing which sews fear and scaremongering. We get
:48:09. > :48:12.this from Anna Soubry and people like you, but the fact is that we
:48:13. > :48:17.should put the interest of British workers first, and we have not done
:48:18. > :48:21.that. It is not just the language, it is also the facts. If we did not
:48:22. > :48:26.have foreign workers in the NHS, there would not be people to staff
:48:27. > :48:30.the hospital beds. The NHS would not run without people. We had this
:48:31. > :48:34.scaremongering about Romanians and Bulgarians, ridiculous stories about
:48:35. > :48:42.blood is appearing on New Year's Day, millions and millions. How many
:48:43. > :48:49.came? The BBC found four people. -- floods. There is a huge amount of
:48:50. > :48:54.scaremongering, and there have been lots of studies that we benefit in
:48:55. > :48:58.terms of taxes paid by migrants. We are net positive. We should be doing
:48:59. > :49:03.more with school places and stuff, but we do benefit.
:49:04. > :49:07.2014 is a crunchy. And with the referendum on independence due to be
:49:08. > :49:12.held on September the 18th. -- a crunch year for Scotland. 16 and
:49:13. > :49:17.17-year-olds will be able to cast a Bolt, and the BBC will follow 50
:49:18. > :49:23.young people to track how they are thinking. -- will be able to cast a
:49:24. > :49:29.vote. The closer I am to my government,
:49:30. > :49:37.the happier I will be. I am definitely a no, M Lil -- let's
:49:38. > :49:43.clear that up! I want to get more information. A lot of the time we
:49:44. > :49:47.are kind of forgotten about, and it is so nice to be able to step up and
:49:48. > :49:52.how people listen to what we think. Ultimately, it is our future.
:49:53. > :49:57.Currently we have free health care, free university fees, and I do not
:49:58. > :50:01.know why we would risk list with an expensive gamble. For the first time
:50:02. > :50:06.in the history of the UK, 16-year-olds will have a vote thanks
:50:07. > :50:09.to the decision of the Scottish Parliament. It is a difficult task
:50:10. > :50:16.to get information about the referendum. There was not a lot of
:50:17. > :50:19.information given to young people. There is a stigma attached to
:50:20. > :50:23.thinking about politics. A lot of people I know are embarrassed to
:50:24. > :50:29.talk about it, it is not the done thing. I have not decided which way
:50:30. > :50:39.I am going yet. I am willing to take bribes from either side!
:50:40. > :50:47.And we are joined from our Aberdeen studio by two students involved in
:50:48. > :50:51.Generation 2014, Martin Close and Erin Fyfe-McWilliam. Welcome to both
:50:52. > :50:57.of you, the spotlight is on Scotland this year, how exciting is the
:50:58. > :51:00.referendum for you? I think it is a breakthrough for our generation,
:51:01. > :51:06.because we are kind of scene as, like, teenagers who are not
:51:07. > :51:13.interested in anything like this, and it is good to show people, like,
:51:14. > :51:16.what we can decide on. Is it a topic of discussion amongst you and your
:51:17. > :51:21.friends? Amongst my group of friends, yes, but whether that is
:51:22. > :51:26.echoed through the rest of our age group, I would be a bit sceptical of
:51:27. > :51:31.that. So you do not think it is generally a topic of conversation
:51:32. > :51:36.for people of your age? I wouldn't say that, no. But for my group of
:51:37. > :51:43.friends, we talk about it on a great deal of aces, I would say. Why are
:51:44. > :51:49.you opposed to independence? I do not think we have enough information
:51:50. > :51:53.on it, and I do not think the Government has thought through it
:51:54. > :51:56.enough. The other countries who have become independent, they have had a
:51:57. > :52:00.more thought through plan, and they have been more certain of what is
:52:01. > :52:05.going to happen afterwards. We are not at that point yet. Martin, you
:52:06. > :52:12.are in favour, how would you answer those fears? Well, I would say that
:52:13. > :52:20.we are in a world right now that isn't very... Not a lot of things
:52:21. > :52:24.are guaranteed in the world. A lot of countries that have gone
:52:25. > :52:28.independent, I would say, have done it from a lesser informed position
:52:29. > :52:34.than we are right now. I would say that the information is out there,
:52:35. > :52:38.and a lot of people want to get off their backsides and start
:52:39. > :52:41.researching about it. What the positives for you about
:52:42. > :52:45.independence? That we would be able to govern ourselves, that we would
:52:46. > :52:50.be in control of our fate, we would be able to choose which direction we
:52:51. > :52:55.would go, instead of having its decided for us by a government that
:52:56. > :52:59.we did not elect. What do you think it would do, or what do think these
:53:00. > :53:06.UCU of the referendum has done in terms of Scottish identity? -- the
:53:07. > :53:13.issue. I think we are known for having big house, but we need to
:53:14. > :53:17.kind of, like, listen to our head and decide whether it is going to
:53:18. > :53:22.benefit us. Economic league, it could go terribly wrong, because 300
:53:23. > :53:26.years ago, when we were independent, England did help us, and we are now
:53:27. > :53:36.getting back on our feet economic league as a nation. -- economic
:53:37. > :53:41.league. Do you think it is right that 16-year-olds will have a vote
:53:42. > :53:46.on something as fundamental as this? Definitely, we are going to be the
:53:47. > :53:50.ones who will be around to enjoy or suffer the consequences of the way
:53:51. > :53:56.we vote, so I think, and everyone voting, we have the biggest stake in
:53:57. > :54:00.it. Well, it is certainly going to be an exciting time over the next
:54:01. > :54:06.few months, thank you to both of you, and you can follow these two
:54:07. > :54:10.and the others in Generation 2014 on BBC News online.
:54:11. > :54:15.So politics is back from the Christmas break, what is on the
:54:16. > :54:18.cards? In Parliament this week, Michael Gove and his ministerial
:54:19. > :54:25.team will be taking education questions from 2:30. Tomorrow Nick
:54:26. > :54:28.Clegg gets his regular grilling in the Commons with Deputy Prime
:54:29. > :54:35.Minister is questions, there is the first Prime Minister's Questions of
:54:36. > :54:39.the year on Wednesday from noon, and the Environment Secretary will be
:54:40. > :54:43.taking questions from MPs on Thursday. Blood defences, of course,
:54:44. > :54:50.are high up on the agenda. -- flood. We are joined by Isabel
:54:51. > :54:54.Hardman and Kevin Maguire, happy New Year to both of you. The Prime
:54:55. > :54:58.Minister and the Chancellor tried to seize the agenda at the start of the
:54:59. > :55:03.year, how worried will they be by the Ashcroft Powell saying that 37%
:55:04. > :55:09.of those who voted Tory in 2010 say they will not, with half defecting
:55:10. > :55:13.to UKIP? I think they should be quite worried, certainly the MPs
:55:14. > :55:17.are, but one of the other lines from that is that voters might trust the
:55:18. > :55:22.Conservatives with the economy, but they trust Labour with the family's
:55:23. > :55:25.futures, and that is quite worrying for the Tories. The Chancellor and
:55:26. > :55:28.the Prime Minister need to get on the front foot to say, this is what
:55:29. > :55:33.we're doing to make sure the cost of your life is not going up. Kevin, no
:55:34. > :55:38.opposition leader with personal ratings as low as Ed has ever won an
:55:39. > :55:44.election, so said somebody over the weekend, I, but who! Is a clear
:55:45. > :55:52.majority for Labour or the Tories unachievable? -- I can't remember
:55:53. > :55:56.who. Ed Miliband is a drag on his party, and they would be further
:55:57. > :56:02.ahead with somebody else, but he is there. Trying to look head, we are
:56:03. > :56:06.using an old maxim, this is uncharted territory now because of
:56:07. > :56:11.the coalition. It is difficult to predict what will happen, although I
:56:12. > :56:15.just feel that neither of the big parties have made that breakthrough.
:56:16. > :56:19.What will they need to do, Isabel Hardman? What does the coalition
:56:20. > :56:23.needs to do? Will there be more differentiation? They will stay
:56:24. > :56:27.together right up until the campaign, it might be difficult, but
:56:28. > :56:31.will differentiation now become the mantra for this year, for the Lib
:56:32. > :56:36.Dems and the Tories? I think it already has. They have become quite
:56:37. > :56:39.used to being public about the disagreements on welfare, human
:56:40. > :56:44.rights and immigration, and they are more comfortable with that. In
:56:45. > :56:47.Justice, Chris Grayling and Nick Clegg are happy to express
:56:48. > :56:50.differences of opinion without it getting personal. In other
:56:51. > :56:54.departments, it is more difficult because there is animosity between
:56:55. > :56:56.Michael Gove and some Lib Dem ministers, for example, which is
:56:57. > :57:01.entertaining from our point of view, but not quite as good for the smooth
:57:02. > :57:05.running of government. Entertaining is important! Looking at
:57:06. > :57:15.pensioners, because David Cameron and George Osborne have made such a
:57:16. > :57:17.big play at the beginning of the year about protecting pensioners,
:57:18. > :57:19.does it put Labour in a tricky position? Labour is the only party
:57:20. > :57:22.who would means test the big benefits, the winter fuel allowance
:57:23. > :57:26.for higher rate taxpayers. It was rather shambolic yesterday with
:57:27. > :57:29.David Cameron, I thought, because the cock crowed three times, Andrew
:57:30. > :57:35.Marr asked three questions about whether he would guarantee universal
:57:36. > :57:39.bus passes, TV licences, the winter fuel allowance, and he would not,
:57:40. > :57:43.and later that afternoon Downing Street's spin doctor said, well, he
:57:44. > :57:46.is minded to keep them. They do not know where they are, and if the
:57:47. > :57:50.Chancellor will be pushing for deeper cuts in welfare, social
:57:51. > :57:54.security 12 billion, a lot of extra money to come, you could abolish
:57:55. > :57:58.jobseeker's allowance, carers and maternity pay and you would not be
:57:59. > :58:05.anywhere near that. If he is going to the pensioners' benefits and the
:58:06. > :58:07.state pension itself, going up, he's going to have a big problem.
:58:08. > :58:11.Thank you very much. Just time before we go to find out the answer
:58:12. > :58:12.to the quiz, can you remember it's? What does Baldrick think caused the
:58:13. > :58:32.First World War? I just wanted to raise those again,
:58:33. > :58:36.anyone know the answer? C! Very good... It is the one thing you
:58:37. > :58:40.cannot do in British politics, criticised Blackadder, it is the
:58:41. > :58:44.worst mistake you can make! We will end on consensus and Blackadder,
:58:45. > :58:50.thank you very much, thanks to my three guests, Tim, Lucy and Julian,
:58:51. > :58:53.and all the others, too. Tomorrow we will have Charles Kennedy, join me
:58:54. > :58:56.then. From all of us here, bye-bye.