:00:35. > :00:39.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Police and
:00:40. > :00:42.politicians try to calm an East London community after yesterday's
:00:43. > :00:49.verdict of unlawful killing over the death of Mark Duggan. -- lawful
:00:50. > :00:51.killing. We will bring you the latest.
:00:52. > :00:54.The government says it can save ?500 million putting government services
:00:55. > :00:58.online, but admits that ?40 million has already been wasted on the IT
:00:59. > :01:01.for welfare reform. Love is in the air. What has brought
:01:02. > :01:06.on an unexpected rapprochement between the Deputy Prime Minister
:01:07. > :01:13.and shadow chancellor? And this man has got a bit of spare
:01:14. > :01:17.time on his hands. Could Alex Ferguson do for the Labour Party
:01:18. > :01:21.what he did for Manchester United? All that in the next hour. And with
:01:22. > :01:25.us for the duration, our very own guru, a former canon chancellor of
:01:26. > :01:29.St Paul's Cathedral. He is now a parish priest in south London. Giles
:01:30. > :01:33.Fraser, welcome to the programme. Let's start with the Mark Duggan
:01:34. > :01:37.inquest. Yesterday, a jury concluded that Mr Duggan was lawfully killed
:01:38. > :01:44.when he was shot dead by police in August 2011. His death led to days
:01:45. > :01:47.of rioting across the UK. His aunt, Carol, gave this defiant message
:01:48. > :02:01.from outside the court. These pictures contain flash photography.
:02:02. > :02:04.For as long as it takes, God give my family strength. Not only the
:02:05. > :02:10.family, the whole of our legal team, the whole of our friends, the whole
:02:11. > :02:14.of the who have supported us. The majority of people in this country
:02:15. > :02:18.know that Mark was executed, and we still believe that. We are going to
:02:19. > :02:24.fight until we have no breath in our body for justice for Mark, for his
:02:25. > :02:34.children and all of those deaths in custody that they have had nothing
:02:35. > :02:37.for. No justice, no peace! Well, this morning Carole Duggan
:02:38. > :02:40.said although the "struggle" will go on, she's called for "no more
:02:41. > :02:43.demonstrations, no more violence". She added that the family would be
:02:44. > :02:46.pursuing their case through peaceful channels.
:02:47. > :02:50.In a moment, we hope to be joined by the MP for the area, David Lammy. He
:02:51. > :02:57.is coming from a meeting with the Met Police. Giles, what is your
:02:58. > :03:04.overall impression of what has happened here? Just looking at the
:03:05. > :03:08.footage of Mark Duggan's aren't, there was something slightly
:03:09. > :03:14.intimidating about that" no justice, no peace". That felt to me at the
:03:15. > :03:18.time as if it was a call for some sort of violence. I am very glad to
:03:19. > :03:22.hear that they have pulled back on that a bit. But I thought the
:03:23. > :03:27.atmosphere outside was really intimidating. Jores Okore be at and
:03:28. > :03:33.that sort of thing. This is unacceptable -- jaw is worth being
:03:34. > :03:37.lunged at. At that has to reflect the feelings of the community, the
:03:38. > :03:44.fact that the police have had a pretty bad track record of late,
:03:45. > :03:51.from Jean Charles de Menezes and even Andrew Mitchell recently. A
:03:52. > :03:58.jury came to this verdict and that is the way our legal system works,
:03:59. > :04:02.and we have to accept that. The media talk about the concerns of the
:04:03. > :04:06.community, but the evidence of what the community really thinks is quite
:04:07. > :04:09.thin. There were a number of people outside the Tottenham police station
:04:10. > :04:14.last night for the demonstration, but there was little evidence that
:04:15. > :04:18.other people then joined in. It was worried much the people who had been
:04:19. > :04:21.outside the court. There is a lot of evidence that this man terrorised
:04:22. > :04:25.his community and that people were frightened of him. There is indeed,
:04:26. > :04:32.and I am always be specious about people commenting about immunity
:04:33. > :04:38.leaders, these self-proclaimed people. -- community leaders. Mark
:04:39. > :04:43.Duggan was not on trial here. But their sins to be a lot of evidence
:04:44. > :04:52.that this was a gang member who did terrorised the local community. None
:04:53. > :04:57.of that justifies him being shot. Policing these areas, with dangerous
:04:58. > :05:04.criminal gangs, is a difficult job for the police to do. The police
:05:05. > :05:12.look to be on shaky ground over some questions, particularly the gun. We
:05:13. > :05:20.have no witnesses saying they saw the gun being thrown away. The gun
:05:21. > :05:28.was 20 feet away from the police. On the other hand, I would suggest that
:05:29. > :05:33.there is a great danger, if our mythical community leaders and other
:05:34. > :05:38.activists try to turn this man into another Stephen Lawrence, it is
:05:39. > :05:43.clear that he was not a Stephen Lawrence. He was not any sort of
:05:44. > :05:46.hero in this community. It is interesting about the nature of
:05:47. > :05:50.evidence in these complicated crime scenes. That is why there is this
:05:51. > :05:54.idea that has come up about the police having cameras on their
:05:55. > :06:01.hats, which I guess sounds like a good idea. It is interesting that
:06:02. > :06:06.the police, in difficult situations, have to make split-second decisions
:06:07. > :06:13.about whether to shoot. We saw that in the case of the murder of Lee
:06:14. > :06:17.Rigby and what happened after that, with people rushing at the police
:06:18. > :06:24.and having to make a split-second decision. And how you make those
:06:25. > :06:27.decisions is a really interesting thing. You can't looked up in a book
:06:28. > :06:32.and see all the. You don't get a chance to do it again. These are
:06:33. > :06:36.very difficult things. I have done quite a bit of work with the Army
:06:37. > :06:40.over the last few years about how you make instant moral decisions. It
:06:41. > :06:44.is nothing that comes out of a rule book, it comes out of your character
:06:45. > :06:51.and your instinct. Let's go to David Lammy now. You were at a meeting
:06:52. > :06:59.with the police this morning. What did you learn? Well, the meeting was
:07:00. > :07:06.really a series of community meetings with local council and
:07:07. > :07:13.members of the community, reflecting on the verdict. As you will have
:07:14. > :07:18.seen and heard yesterday, many close to the family were communicating in
:07:19. > :07:26.a powerful way, but also looking forward to hopefully a peaceful
:07:27. > :07:30.vigil at the weekend, but also to broader police relations in the
:07:31. > :07:34.constituency and beyond. Where will the vigil be, and who will be part
:07:35. > :07:40.of it? That is still being determined. It is the intention of
:07:41. > :07:49.the Duggan family to have a peaceful vigil. That will take place this
:07:50. > :07:56.weekend. I suspect it will be, in the normal way in my constituency,
:07:57. > :08:00.outside the police station. It is a moment in which members of the
:08:01. > :08:05.community are able to reflect on the loss of life of Mark Duggan. But the
:08:06. > :08:09.family will also be able to convey their feelings about where they find
:08:10. > :08:14.themselves at this moment. For them, this is not the end of the
:08:15. > :08:20.process. There is an Independent Police Complaints Commission enquiry
:08:21. > :08:24.that has yet to report, so this story continues for them. But you
:08:25. > :08:28.seem to have some doubts about the ability of the IPCC to get to the
:08:29. > :08:36.bottom of this? It is not just me that has doubts. The Home Secretary
:08:37. > :08:43.has doubts about that a black body. The Independent Police Complaints
:08:44. > :08:47.Commission is a body that, across the political spectrum, there is
:08:48. > :08:51.concern about its strength, its resources, its ability to command
:08:52. > :08:56.the respect of officers and actually to be able to interview officers. In
:08:57. > :09:00.this case, the officers did not give interviews. This investigation has
:09:01. > :09:09.been going on for two and a half years. And with reason is not
:09:10. > :09:13.attached to the Mark Duggan case, Andrew Mitchell, a former Cabinet
:09:14. > :09:18.office the list, has expressed concerns. It full is the -- it falls
:09:19. > :09:24.to the to look at questions the jury raised, and also questions that came
:09:25. > :09:27.out of the inquest itself, and to come back to the public in the
:09:28. > :09:32.coming weeks. In many people's mines, the police still have
:09:33. > :09:38.questions to answer. It looks as if there are some contradictions in
:09:39. > :09:45.what they have been saying. Are you not in danger of making a hero or a
:09:46. > :09:53.national figure out of someone who was clearly a pretty nasty
:09:54. > :09:58.gangster? Look, it is not for me, as an elected official, to determine
:09:59. > :10:05.the rights or wrong is of a particular individual. That is for a
:10:06. > :10:12.jury and our prosecution services. But are you in any doubt that he was
:10:13. > :10:16.a gangster? I know what the jury said. It is your constituency and
:10:17. > :10:20.you say you are close to the family. Are you in any doubt that he
:10:21. > :10:28.was a gangster of whom people were terrified? Andrew, I have not come
:10:29. > :10:32.on this show to start calling people gangsters, particularly when they
:10:33. > :10:38.don't have significant criminal records. Mark Duggan had a small
:10:39. > :10:44.criminal record for possession of marijuana, and that was it. So I
:10:45. > :10:50.recognise that others have portrayed him as such. His family said he was
:10:51. > :10:55.not an angel. But the truth is that there are many young men in
:10:56. > :11:00.inner-city areas that reach the age of 29, have small criminal records,
:11:01. > :11:05.but he had no record for violence, gun possession and other things. But
:11:06. > :11:09.yes, operation Trident have said he was absolutely on their list. They
:11:10. > :11:16.were watching him, and certain things came out of the inquest.
:11:17. > :11:24.You were bursting to get in with something. I wanted to ask David
:11:25. > :11:27.Lammy something. David, why is it that the natural place for a
:11:28. > :11:30.peaceful vigil is outside a police station? That seems to be the
:11:31. > :11:36.natural place for a demonstration. At a vigil may be churches and so
:11:37. > :11:43.forth. That does not seem to be the natural place for a vigil. That is a
:11:44. > :11:53.good point. It is a matter for discussion over the next 24-hour. --
:11:54. > :11:56.24 hours. What has happened in Tottenham is that there have been
:11:57. > :12:02.four deaths at the hands of the police in as many decades, each
:12:03. > :12:11.decade of my life. This goes back to just before the Broadwater farm
:12:12. > :12:16.riots. Roger Sylvester in the late 90s and now Mark Duggan. For those
:12:17. > :12:19.reasons, protest outside the police station is something that has been
:12:20. > :12:24.an established norm. Of course, in many respects, there are broader
:12:25. > :12:30.issues here in terms of police relations, and if that protest is to
:12:31. > :12:33.happen, I would like some of it to be in central London outside
:12:34. > :12:37.Scotland Yard and not entirely directed at my constituency. The
:12:38. > :12:41.vast number of people in Tottenham want to support this family. They
:12:42. > :12:44.certainly don't want to see violence, and the family have
:12:45. > :12:47.reiterated that there can be no violence at attached to the name of
:12:48. > :12:52.Mark Duggan. Now to something different, our
:12:53. > :12:57.daily quiz. The question for today is what new TV programme has been a
:12:58. > :13:05.leader Nick Griffin launched on his party's website? Is it his own
:13:06. > :13:10.fitness and work-out DVD? A cookery programme? And interior design show
:13:11. > :13:14.or a money advice service? At the end of the show, Giles has the
:13:15. > :13:26.privilege of giving us the correct and soft. -- the correct answer.
:13:27. > :13:30.Hasn't he just gone bankrupt? So a money advice service? I am just
:13:31. > :13:33.guessing. Apparently, you don't need to step
:13:34. > :13:39.down from the European Parliament if you are bankrupt, whereas you do
:13:40. > :13:42.across the road. Now, at this stage, I should have a bit of paper in my
:13:43. > :13:46.hand, but I left it in the newsroom. Anyway, you know that in addition to
:13:47. > :13:52.the plastic licences we get for driving, you still have to have some
:13:53. > :13:56.back-up paper, even though we now have photographic licences. If you
:13:57. > :13:59.want to rent a car when you go abroad, you need one. As soon, the
:14:00. > :14:04.paper part of the driving licence will not be needed. They are going
:14:05. > :14:09.to go away. It is part of the government drive to put more stuff
:14:10. > :14:14.online. They say it will save money. Yes, the government is committed to
:14:15. > :14:17.making the UK the most digital government in the G8 by 2015. Today
:14:18. > :14:23.Cabinet office minister Francis Maude is unveiling lands to make
:14:24. > :14:28.that a reality. Today's announcement is over the abolition of paper
:14:29. > :14:32.driver licenses. But by 2015, the new system will be supporting
:14:33. > :14:35.student loan applications, people registering to vote and tax
:14:36. > :14:40.self-assessment is. The government says that on average, an online
:14:41. > :14:43.service is 50 times cheaper than face-to-face transactions. According
:14:44. > :14:48.to Francis Maude, tackling the waste in IT spending will save at least
:14:49. > :14:52.?500 million this year. But of course, it is not all plain sailing.
:14:53. > :14:57.The government's universal credit project, which is meant to
:14:58. > :15:01.consolidate all working age benefits into one payment, has been troubled
:15:02. > :15:05.by serious IT problems. This has led to the write-off of ?40 million and
:15:06. > :15:09.led to the Cabinet office minister Francis Maude sending in
:15:10. > :15:15.troubleshooters to get the project back on track. And there have been
:15:16. > :15:18.leaked reports that there have been disagreements between the work on
:15:19. > :15:22.pension secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Francis Maude over the way the
:15:23. > :15:31.project is managed. I am joined now by Bryan Glick, editor in chief of
:15:32. > :15:37.Computer Weekly. Government IT has been seen as a disaster. Why is
:15:38. > :15:41.that? It comes down to the fact that the disasters we hear about are very
:15:42. > :15:47.big projects and they are large politically driven initiatives and
:15:48. > :15:52.because they try to deliver a promise of a politician, it is not
:15:53. > :15:57.like a business with the Chief Executive says, let us slip that for
:15:58. > :16:01.six months, but in politics you get attacked for that. It is that
:16:02. > :16:06.physical pressure along with the sheer scale of what they try to
:16:07. > :16:19.achieve. Universal Credit, was not to be? And the timescale to short?
:16:20. > :16:25.-- too short? It certainly seems that has come back to bite them in a
:16:26. > :16:31.rather nasty way since. The sad thing about Universal Credit is that
:16:32. > :16:35.they chose to pursue initially some of the older ways of doing things
:16:36. > :16:41.that had previously been criticised and they have not learned lessons
:16:42. > :16:46.from past mistakes. There is a new breed of people within government,
:16:47. > :16:53.led by Francis Maude, who believe it is better to do things differently.
:16:54. > :16:57.Is this achievable? This project? It is certainly achievable at some
:16:58. > :17:04.point and they shall be able to deliver that. Deliver software that
:17:05. > :17:07.does what it is wanted to do. But not in the timescales overpromised
:17:08. > :17:12.and to the budget they have committed to. Once this mod is
:17:13. > :17:18.committed to making the UK the best in the G8. How good are we? Looking
:17:19. > :17:23.across the G8, he would not about anyone to say, they are particularly
:17:24. > :17:29.good. If you want to be the best, it is not a project really difficult
:17:30. > :17:35.race to win! But over the last couple of years, this new digital
:17:36. > :17:37.service that Francis Maude is responsible for has made some
:17:38. > :17:43.significant progress and has done good work. Can they say the money
:17:44. > :17:48.that Francis Maude is talking about? ?500 million every year? It costs a
:17:49. > :17:52.lot of money to do a face-to-face transaction in public service and it
:17:53. > :17:58.costs less to do that by telephone and a lot less online. If you can
:17:59. > :18:02.take services that are done predominantly face-to-face or on
:18:03. > :18:07.telephone and get them done over the internet, it will cost less money.
:18:08. > :18:12.Thank you. Andrew? With us now is the man in charge - Francis Maude,
:18:13. > :18:20.the Cabinet Office Minister. The Bill Gates of the Coalition
:18:21. > :18:27.Government! How will look -- will be measure success in becoming the most
:18:28. > :18:30.digital government by next year? There are independent rankings done
:18:31. > :18:36.by outside bodies and we did not rank particularly high on that.
:18:37. > :18:43.Estonia, remarkably, always comes up at the top. They are not in the G8
:18:44. > :18:53.and that is a fair point. But the competition is not fierce. But that
:18:54. > :18:58.word, by word for disaster, and repetition is shockingly bad and we
:18:59. > :19:03.spend more per capita on IT in any other country with the exception of
:19:04. > :19:10.Sweden and Switzerland. And you must include the cost of a certain
:19:11. > :19:15.laboratory. That is a rather unusual piece of equipment. We were spending
:19:16. > :19:23.a lot and were ranked fairly low. Now, we are rising but there have
:19:24. > :19:28.not been recent rankings. But this is about how many transition --
:19:29. > :19:31.transactions get done. We have good applications but they are not well
:19:32. > :19:37.used. If you can get 20 percentage people to use an application, you
:19:38. > :19:40.should be able to get up to 80% quickly and government applications
:19:41. > :19:45.get stuck at 50% and a lot of that is the transaction failing so you
:19:46. > :19:49.get huge numbers of enquiries by phone and people having to do things
:19:50. > :19:53.face-to-face or by post, which is not the way most people want to do
:19:54. > :19:58.this. Some people do but you want the individual attention to be
:19:59. > :20:02.focused on the people who cannot operate online rather than on the
:20:03. > :20:08.majority of people who want to do things quickly and conveniently at a
:20:09. > :20:17.time of their own choosing. I have my prop! There are a lot of
:20:18. > :20:28.endorsements on this! Is that yours? ! Quite clean! You must get rid of
:20:29. > :20:33.this? That is a consequence. We will not need tax discs in the future
:20:34. > :20:39.because that is a relic of the past. The police can now pick you up
:20:40. > :20:43.on number recognition? And with the paper counterpart, you don't need to
:20:44. > :20:49.have that any more because everyone has... And insurance companies and
:20:50. > :20:53.companies for car hire have access to that online and one consequence
:20:54. > :21:01.will be that insurance premiums should come down for honest drivers,
:21:02. > :21:07.which is the majority, and it is reckoned that remains will drop by
:21:08. > :21:14.?15 every year. Not huge but a little bit. Better than nothing.
:21:15. > :21:24.When we think of government and digital, we think of the Williams
:21:25. > :21:29.spent on the NHS patient records. And electronic borders. And we have
:21:30. > :21:36.seen you willing your chaps out of the project to deliver Universal
:21:37. > :21:45.Credit? There are only a dozen of our people on that. And the
:21:46. > :21:50.intention of these projects always is that we do not expect central
:21:51. > :21:59.government to be there forever, we are there to give support and build
:22:00. > :22:07.the team. MoJ, for example, that team is 65. We help them recruit and
:22:08. > :22:11.all of that. But the programme of building the digital online
:22:12. > :22:16.applications has to be done within the Department. Is your team saying
:22:17. > :22:22.everything is OK at the Department for Work and Pensions? There are two
:22:23. > :22:27.projects over their because there was the original Pathfinder which
:22:28. > :22:32.has run into big problems. Iain Duncan Smith spotted the problems
:22:33. > :22:37.earlier on and commissioned a review more than two years ago, and that
:22:38. > :22:46.highlighted to the officials in the Department... What are your people
:22:47. > :22:53.saying I? They have come out. Or they saying, it is fine? It has been
:22:54. > :22:55.done in a way that is agreed with the digital leader in the
:22:56. > :23:00.Department, who is strongly supported by our digital
:23:01. > :23:05.infrastructure. Relations are very good. I am a strong supporter of
:23:06. > :23:10.what Iain Duncan Smith is doing and Universal Credit is an exceptionally
:23:11. > :23:15.powerful visionary policy and I am confident it is capable of being
:23:16. > :23:19.implement it. The Guardian said that Mr Maude and his team fell out with
:23:20. > :23:26.Mr Duncan Smith's that is simply incorrect. The Guardian got it
:23:27. > :23:32.wrong? It is impossible to conceive such a thing! But we have worked
:23:33. > :23:39.very closely together. We got involved with this project less than
:23:40. > :23:43.one year ago at Ian's request because there was a real problem
:23:44. > :23:48.going wrong and could we help? We put people in but it was always on
:23:49. > :23:55.an interim basis, we had our most experienced project manager in
:23:56. > :23:58.government on a temporary basis and he gripped that and reset everything
:23:59. > :24:02.and we have been given commercial support because of problems in the
:24:03. > :24:08.relationships with suppliers and be put in a digital team, so it was
:24:09. > :24:14.always meant... We hope it shall work out well. There are two
:24:15. > :24:19.projects. You would not hope it works out badly! Nobody has any
:24:20. > :24:23.doubt that the digital solution that the team in Victoria Street, which
:24:24. > :24:28.is predominantly Work and Pensions, are working on a prototype in three
:24:29. > :24:35.months at a cost of just over ?1 million. Will it be all right? We
:24:36. > :24:42.hope so. There is no certainty in these things. I think the gentleman
:24:43. > :24:47.from Computer Weekly was right. One of the problems is we have set
:24:48. > :24:52.deadlines and we feel locked into those and other organisations, you
:24:53. > :24:56.would give yourself more fixable itty and everything we do in
:24:57. > :24:59.government is incredibly public and one of the problems with the Oldroyd
:25:00. > :25:08.of doing things, which are referred to, is that politicians and advisers
:25:09. > :25:11.and officials produce a policy and gets handed off to someone to
:25:12. > :25:16.implement and what has happened in the past easy draw up a huge amount
:25:17. > :25:22.of money and specifications, going through lengthy procurement and give
:25:23. > :25:27.that to a big firm to develop and two years later it comes back and
:25:28. > :25:32.does not work. That is wrong, the way we do things now is very much
:25:33. > :25:37.more interactive and you develop and test it all the time with users, it
:25:38. > :25:42.has to be driven by user needs and it is a completely different
:25:43. > :25:49.approach. We shall see. What is your take? I am quite grumpy about this.
:25:50. > :25:52.But about the money that is wasted but about moving away from
:25:53. > :25:57.face-to-face. I quite like the fact that so many of these things are
:25:58. > :26:03.done face-to-face and so many interactions have become
:26:04. > :26:10.depersonalised and it was rotating phrase is unexpected item in bagging
:26:11. > :26:15.area. -- the most irritating. You get terribly frustrated. The idea
:26:16. > :26:23.that we are moving online, with nobody to shout out! And for the
:26:24. > :26:27.elderly, people without computers have to go to libraries, if there is
:26:28. > :26:37.a library that has not been shot down near you. I can sense you
:26:38. > :26:42.getting angry. But the point is at the moment have enormous numbers of
:26:43. > :26:47.telephone calls and only driver licenses, there are 1 million
:26:48. > :26:50.enquiries every year, most by phone, and most are quite unnecessary and
:26:51. > :26:56.people don't want to do that. For most people, they want to do this
:26:57. > :27:00.quickly and conveniently and it is a chore that has to be done. What you
:27:01. > :27:04.need is the focus of the face-to-face contact centres
:27:05. > :27:11.available for those who need it but not actually spread... People who
:27:12. > :27:24.really need that RNA queue of people who do not. -- who need that are in
:27:25. > :27:27.a queue. Thank you both. When the Occupy movement set up camp outside
:27:28. > :27:30.St Paul's Cathedral towards the end of 2011, it did more than mount a
:27:31. > :27:34.four-month protest against global capitalism, it provoked a series of
:27:35. > :27:37.rows and resignations not least that of our guest of the day who was
:27:38. > :27:43.senior member of the cathedral's clergy. But for all the turmoil,
:27:44. > :27:46.some argue the episode actually did the Church of England some good and
:27:47. > :27:50.provoked a passionate, if sometimes painful, debate about its role and
:27:51. > :28:04.ability to speak on social, moral and financial issues. David Thompson
:28:05. > :28:09.reports. St Paul's Cathedral. For some, the interface between God and
:28:10. > :28:15.man. Two years ago, conflict came to its front door. They Occupy movement
:28:16. > :28:19.was meant to bring a campaign against greed and inequality
:28:20. > :28:26.straight to the spiritual heart of London. It's true the world 's media
:28:27. > :28:31.to the steps and led to high-profile resignations at the church. The
:28:32. > :28:35.protest began on October the 15th 2011. Around 3000 people gathered
:28:36. > :28:40.outside the London Stock Exchange with a view to occupying it. And it
:28:41. > :28:45.failed they moved to Saint Pauls. Within days, with an 100 tents were
:28:46. > :28:51.set up and the cathedral had a crisis. It was visibly shocked when
:28:52. > :28:56.Ocuupy turned up. You could see that on the face of the bishop and the
:28:57. > :29:01.clergy. They did not know how to respond to this. Those built of
:29:02. > :29:05.human flesh to back at first it remained open but citing health and
:29:06. > :29:10.safety, it closed one week later and 13 days after the protest began the
:29:11. > :29:16.cathedral took legal action to give it the protesters. But that came at
:29:17. > :29:22.a price. The decision to evict the protesters had the backing of the
:29:23. > :29:25.city. But the consequences were not good for Saint Pauls in the
:29:26. > :29:32.short-term. The cause of the number of resignations. Giles Fraser, the
:29:33. > :29:38.Dean and others. The protest came to an end on February 20, 2012, when
:29:39. > :29:43.police moved tents and activists. It had lasted more than four months.
:29:44. > :29:46.But what long-term impact did it have on the wider church? The
:29:47. > :29:55.protest might even have influenced the decision for Justin Welby to be
:29:56. > :29:59.Archbishop. He came from the world of the city, he had massive
:30:00. > :30:03.experience in finance and through the oil industry. But he also has
:30:04. > :30:09.this very strong ability to speak on issues of poverty, so he is a man
:30:10. > :30:14.who can bridge those worlds. The protest was worthwhile and we still
:30:15. > :30:17.can seek repercussions are broad and here and we have seen long-term
:30:18. > :30:21.change in the church in the church and the right action. And the people
:30:22. > :30:24.did that I'd have free will, they wanted to. They thought it was
:30:25. > :30:30.worthwhile. Shaking up a church every now and again is no bad
:30:31. > :30:33.thing. Very few months, it was the centre of a noisy and sometimes
:30:34. > :30:37.painful debate about the role of the church in a capitalist society. Two
:30:38. > :30:46.years later, its effects are still being felt. So what should be the
:30:47. > :30:48.real role of the church in the social and political life of the
:30:49. > :30:52.country? Joining Giles Fraser to discuss that
:30:53. > :30:57.is the Conservative MP and committed Christian, Steve Baker. Giles
:30:58. > :31:01.Fraser, since the Occupy protests, you have been a critic of the
:31:02. > :31:07.government. Is that the right thing for Anglican cleric to be doing? It
:31:08. > :31:18.is not the government, per se. As a Christian clergyman, I feel that the
:31:19. > :31:21.gospel calls us to preach in a way that is particularly good news to
:31:22. > :31:25.the poor. This government has not necessarily been good news to the
:31:26. > :31:29.poor, and that is something we can debate, but it is not a party
:31:30. > :31:33.political issue. I am happy to criticise any government that is not
:31:34. > :31:37.good news to the poor. It is not a party political thing. The idea that
:31:38. > :31:41.the Church should stay out of politics is one of those cliches.
:31:42. > :31:47.Tell that to Desmond Tutu. It is absurd. It is a diminished sense of
:31:48. > :31:52.what constitutes politics if you think that. Let me welcome our
:31:53. > :31:57.viewers in Scotland who have watching First Minister's Questions.
:31:58. > :32:00.We are talking about the role of the Church and St Paul's cathedral since
:32:01. > :32:04.the protests a few years ago. Why shouldn't the church criticise
:32:05. > :32:10.something that they feel affects their constituents? The church
:32:11. > :32:14.should do what Jesus did. Jesus was born King of the Jews and died King
:32:15. > :32:18.of the Jews. He was a born politician. He said a lot of things
:32:19. > :32:22.which disrupted society. But what is surprising about Jesus is that he
:32:23. > :32:26.rejected the use of practical politics to force things. So the
:32:27. > :32:30.question for the church is, what kind of politics do you want to make
:32:31. > :32:35.relevant? What frustrates me is that there we are, a church which follows
:32:36. > :32:38.Jesus, the servant King, and he avoided the use of political power,
:32:39. > :32:44.against all expectations. So I think the church should be preaching
:32:45. > :32:46.freedom and virtue and love for your neighbour, but not Kenzie and
:32:47. > :32:51.economics and an extension of political power. Giles was talking
:32:52. > :32:54.about championing the rights of the poor. He feels that some government
:32:55. > :33:00.policies have not helped the poor. Steve, you you are a member of the
:33:01. > :33:05.Christian conservative fellowship. You see the church should stay out
:33:06. > :33:10.of politics. Here is the mission -2 bad prayer is the foundation of all
:33:11. > :33:12.our activity, to seek Kristian to support the Conservatives. You are
:33:13. > :33:16.politicising religion heavily, so don't put that on me. I did not see
:33:17. > :33:21.the church should stay out of politics, I said the church thing
:33:22. > :33:28.about what Jesus did in politics. You should be speaking for society
:33:29. > :33:31.in the way Jesus did, which was to witness personal service and love,
:33:32. > :33:37.not to reach for political power and coerce people. Are you saying that
:33:38. > :33:40.because it is the politics you don't agree with? If Giles was supporting
:33:41. > :33:48.conservative policy, you would not be criticising him. What I am
:33:49. > :33:52.critical of is the wrong kinds of all attacks to serve the poor.
:33:53. > :33:57.Wallace six you don't agree with! This is one of the unfortunate thing
:33:58. > :34:00.is about the Bible and why the law should never be justified on the
:34:01. > :34:04.grounds of faith. You have to keep faith out of legislation. The Bible
:34:05. > :34:09.can be used to justify more or less anything, from anarchic hominis on
:34:10. > :34:13.the one hand to a profound conservative on the other. I am an
:34:14. > :34:19.old-fashioned liberal, so when I look at Galatians, the law is a
:34:20. > :34:25.schoolmaster. I think the church should be preaching what Jesus said,
:34:26. > :34:30.which is liberty and virtue and love for our neighbour. I am glad you
:34:31. > :34:33.think that in one sense, you should separate the church from politics.
:34:34. > :34:41.Presumably you are in favour of the disestablishment of the Church of
:34:42. > :34:45.England. I am. I was baptised into the Church of England, but I am now
:34:46. > :34:49.a Baptist, so I am happy to leave those issues to the Church of
:34:50. > :34:52.England. I would be very happy to see the Church of England
:34:53. > :34:56.disestablished, but I'm not about to start campaigning for it. We have
:34:57. > :34:59.had enough nonsense about the House of Lords. You can see the
:35:00. > :35:04.difficulties it creates for the Church of England over, for example,
:35:05. > :35:08.women bishops. They have to play out that drama in public when actually,
:35:09. > :35:17.it is a faith matter. You are presiding over a divided community.
:35:18. > :35:20.The in your former role, you are presiding over a divided community
:35:21. > :35:26.on those issues. The Church of England was invented as a board
:35:27. > :35:31.church. We invented the big tent, Tony Blair didn't. We have all sorts
:35:32. > :35:37.of people. That is what we want. There are not many people in the
:35:38. > :35:40.10th these days. I don't know what tent you go to, but come to see me
:35:41. > :35:45.sometime! Let's go back to the protests. With hindsight, do you
:35:46. > :35:52.think the church got itself into a mess over it? Yes. I think the
:35:53. > :35:57.church had ignored the idea of social and economic justice.
:35:58. > :36:05.Economic justice is the number-1 moral issue in the Bible. I think
:36:06. > :36:09.there was not enough talk about money and the morality of finance
:36:10. > :36:15.and so forth. I think the church was fingers and thumbs when the
:36:16. > :36:20.financial crisis hit. Part of what happened at St Paul's Cathedral was
:36:21. > :36:23.what led us to having Justin Welby as Archbishop of Canterbury. And is
:36:24. > :36:28.he getting the politics right as well as the faith? He is doing a
:36:29. > :36:35.good job, yes. Does he bridged the two worlds? It is not about reaching
:36:36. > :36:40.the two worlds -- bridging them . It is Christianity trying to speak out
:36:41. > :36:43.of its own truth. And would you like people like Giles to not say a word?
:36:44. > :36:48.No, it is important that Giles is part of a spectrum of debate. But
:36:49. > :36:51.for me, and understanding of the Bible justifies an old-fashioned
:36:52. > :36:56.liberalism which is about freedom and institutions and eliminating the
:36:57. > :36:59.moral hands at from the banking system which the state put there. We
:37:00. > :37:04.should have a free society where people have responsibility for the
:37:05. > :37:10.consequences of their actions. I don't remember anything about the
:37:11. > :37:13.banking system in Bible classes. Or whether they had a view on
:37:14. > :37:20.quantitative easing or not. Anyway, in the past, the shadow chancellor,
:37:21. > :37:23.Ed Balls, has not been a fan of Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg. This was what
:37:24. > :37:35.he said about him in September 2012.
:37:36. > :37:40.I am not thinking to myself, I want a coalition for the future. I want a
:37:41. > :37:43.Labour majority government in 2015. But right now, I want this and
:37:44. > :37:48.people who put the country first and are sensible. Yesterday in an
:37:49. > :37:52.interview with the new statesman, Ed Balls changed his tune, suggesting
:37:53. > :37:56.that the Deputy Prime Minister was a man he could work with, saying" I
:37:57. > :38:02.can disagree with Nick Clegg on some of the things he did, but I have no
:38:03. > :38:06.reason to doubt his integrity". No lag responded on Twitter simply with
:38:07. > :38:14.the words "Ed Balls". Ed Balls responded" I agree with Nick" .
:38:15. > :38:18.Isn't that nice? We are joined now by the political editor of the New
:38:19. > :38:24.Statesman, Rafael Behr. What is Mr Balls up to? It is a good question.
:38:25. > :38:30.The interpretation from the Liberal Democrat side is that Ed Balls has
:38:31. > :38:33.understood that it is still difficult for Labour to win a
:38:34. > :38:36.majority at the next election. Labour have underestimated Nick
:38:37. > :38:41.Clegg. They thought he would be toast by now. He is still there. He
:38:42. > :38:48.might hold the balance of power in a hung Parliament, and there will be
:38:49. > :38:50.coalition negotiations. Ed Balls has to demonstrate that he is capable of
:38:51. > :38:56.doing business with everyone. This was an act of Rand decontamination
:38:57. > :39:02.on his part, saying, I am not the angry trouble person you thought I
:39:03. > :39:08.was. We might be able to get along. Was he speaking to the New Statesman
:39:09. > :39:16.as an individual on this, or was there a decision in the Miliband
:39:17. > :39:19.office? The relationship between the Miliband office and the Ed Balls
:39:20. > :39:22.office is always complex. They communicate, but I don't think it
:39:23. > :39:27.would be fair to say they always speak as one. There has been a broad
:39:28. > :39:30.change in that own the Labour Party has adopted would the Lib Dems, as
:39:31. > :39:34.they have realised that Nick Clegg is not the sort of zombie that they
:39:35. > :39:38.can be had with one that of their wrist as the next election
:39:39. > :39:44.approaches. He will be there, and he might want to be Deputy Prime
:39:45. > :39:48.Minister under a Labour government. Ed Balls in particular has been
:39:49. > :39:55.feeling isolated recently. He did not have a great end of the year.
:39:56. > :40:00.People feel he has not been popular. He needs to show he is a figure that
:40:01. > :40:07.is not just the angry man on the front bench of the Labour Party,
:40:08. > :40:15.flapping his arms and shouting. Is there a lot of talk in the Labour
:40:16. > :40:21.high command that "we might not get an overall majority" ? They have to
:40:22. > :40:25.be careful about this. The official quote you will always get is that
:40:26. > :40:32.they want to win. I can't even a hint of a signal plan for coalition
:40:33. > :40:34.negotiations out. They know that in the run-up to 2010, they made a
:40:35. > :40:38.mistake in not thinking about the fact that there might be coalition
:40:39. > :40:41.negotiations. And they discovered that the Lib Dems and Tories been
:40:42. > :40:45.thinking about it very hard privately. I would be surprised if,
:40:46. > :40:49.very privately, there was not serious discussion close to Ed
:40:50. > :40:55.Miliband about what that would involve. That is why Labour now
:40:56. > :41:01.support a mansion tax, the Lib Dem policy. They are thinking about what
:41:02. > :41:08.is compatible with a Lib Dem platform, but you will never hear
:41:09. > :41:11.them say that. Fascinating. Now, should it be illegal to be
:41:12. > :41:20.annoying? You might think it sounds like a good idea. I can think of a
:41:21. > :41:24.few people! But could buskers, carol singers or even, dare I say it,
:41:25. > :41:28.political interview fall foul of the law? Well, members of the House of
:41:29. > :41:32.Lords were an annoyance to the government last night when they
:41:33. > :41:35.defeated the plans to make causing nuisance and annoyance a criminal
:41:36. > :41:44.offence. Here is what peers had to say about it. Nuisance or annoyance
:41:45. > :41:50.cannot, I would maintain, and should not be applied to the countryside,
:41:51. > :41:52.the public park, to shopping mall is, sports grounds, the high
:41:53. > :41:59.street, Parliament Square, speakers Corner and so on. Because that risks
:42:00. > :42:06.it being used against any of us and against anyone in society. It risks
:42:07. > :42:09.being used for those who seek to protest peacefully, noisy children
:42:10. > :42:13.in the street, street preachers, canvassers, carol singers, trick or
:42:14. > :42:18.treat is, church bell ringers, clay pigeon shooters, nudists. And yes,
:42:19. > :42:28.they also have raised objections with me. If people feel threatened
:42:29. > :42:38.and their lives are badly impinged upon, that is what the government is
:42:39. > :42:47.trying to prevent by this Bill. I don't want to downplay the impact of
:42:48. > :42:52.some bad behaviour on a lot of people. I want to take you back to
:42:53. > :42:56.1970s Soho, where as a young constable, I was patrolling with a
:42:57. > :43:04.much more streetwise officer, when we were approached by a large
:43:05. > :43:09.Westminster councillor who was objecting to people handing out
:43:10. > :43:15.leaflets about rent rises. He said he was really annoyed by this. And
:43:16. > :43:22.the officer I was with said "well, sir, my aunt Mabel is annoying, but
:43:23. > :43:32.I'm not going to let anybody arrest her for just being annoying" .
:43:33. > :43:36.With us now is the Home Office minister Norman Baker. It is an
:43:37. > :43:41.embarrassing defeat for the legislation, isn't it? Are you going
:43:42. > :43:43.to accept the wedding that was suggested, harassment, alarm and
:43:44. > :43:48.distress rather than nuisance or annoyance? It is certainly
:43:49. > :43:52.disappointing and I despair, having heard some of those comments. They
:43:53. > :43:55.are misinformed. It is not a criminal offence that is being
:43:56. > :44:00.proposed, it is a civil matter. There are tests of reasonableness
:44:01. > :44:05.put in to make sure we don't have aunt Mabel being arrested. But they
:44:06. > :44:09.are not convinced. That sounds as if the government has not done its job
:44:10. > :44:14.properly. Someone from the Lib Dems said these laws would be used to
:44:15. > :44:17.stamp out a plurality, to pursue children for the crime of being
:44:18. > :44:24.young and together in a public gaze. They can't be used for that. There
:44:25. > :44:27.are safe guards in place with our reasonableness test. They have to go
:44:28. > :44:30.to the courts to uphold any application. There are amendments in
:44:31. > :44:36.the Bill which I have put down with my colleagues which specifically
:44:37. > :44:40.protect political protest. This is not the end of civilisation. But
:44:41. > :44:47.they think it is. Nuisance and annoyance is a very elastic term.
:44:48. > :44:51.One person's nuisance, you must accept, would be another person's
:44:52. > :44:55.exuberance. Yes, but that is constrained by the test which are in
:44:56. > :45:01.there. It has to be just and reasonable. Then why change the
:45:02. > :45:07.wording in the first place? Because we are moving away from Labour's
:45:08. > :45:11.failed ASBO process, where people continually reoffend, despite the
:45:12. > :45:14.ASBO being given to them. We are moving to a civil standard which is
:45:15. > :45:23.better in terms of not criminalising young people. We want to deal with
:45:24. > :45:27.that and anti-social behaviour. It is silly for this to be built around
:45:28. > :45:32.words like annoyance and nuisance. This is the wrong part of the
:45:33. > :45:36.dictionary. These are words that we cannot make subject to any
:45:37. > :45:45.legislative stuff, and we shall keep on hearing about this, about aunt
:45:46. > :45:52.Mabel, and unless you make something more, this is silly. Let me stress,
:45:53. > :45:56.it is not a criminal offence for introducing this and this is an
:45:57. > :46:00.injunction they would have to grant. The fact that carol singers could be
:46:01. > :46:28.stopped is nonsense. They would be five miles down the road. What could
:46:29. > :46:38.happen? If you breach a subsequent order, that is a different problem.
:46:39. > :46:43.If somebody says the government is planning to kill every 10th child,
:46:44. > :46:46.the assumption is that the worst possible interpretation is the one
:46:47. > :46:50.the government is putting forward. But you will look at changing the
:46:51. > :46:56.wording? The House of Lords have spoken and we must look at that.
:46:57. > :47:00.Will that satisfy you? Yes, they need to look at this again and they
:47:01. > :47:04.need to change it and get rid of these silly words. We want a society
:47:05. > :47:10.in which people have the right to be annoying. I absolutely degree, no
:47:11. > :47:15.dispute. Then you must change the words. This does not do what you
:47:16. > :47:19.think it does. People should be allowed to be awkward and cause a
:47:20. > :47:26.nuisance by exercising their credit right. Some people do not like
:47:27. > :47:32.Morris dancers. But others might. As a Lib Dem, there will be many who
:47:33. > :47:36.will say, do you not feel uncomfortable about championing
:47:37. > :47:39.legislation around this framework? Anti-social behaviour was a big
:47:40. > :47:43.problem and no one doubts that this should be looked at but are you
:47:44. > :47:50.comfortable championing this in this way? I am because it does not do
:47:51. > :47:55.what opponents say it does and the did say that, I would not supported.
:47:56. > :48:00.But I am very happy to look at the wording and we shall analyse this in
:48:01. > :48:03.detail. But there is no intention from either side of the government
:48:04. > :48:08.to do anything to limit civil liberties. This is to stop
:48:09. > :48:15.anti-social behaviour. What is your response to what the Mark Duggan
:48:16. > :48:18.family is calling for? We have had a verdict from injury and we need to
:48:19. > :48:23.be careful in terms of civil liberties and the IPCC is carrying
:48:24. > :48:29.on with its investigations and that is a proper course of action and it
:48:30. > :48:32.is right that Mr Duggan's and said she wants to pursue this through
:48:33. > :48:38.proper channels rather than any other means. That is the correct
:48:39. > :48:44.response. Thank you very much. Can I clarify? Is a government policy to
:48:45. > :48:50.kill every 10th child? ! Know, every fifth child! At least we cleared
:48:51. > :48:57.that up! One answer to the population explosion! I am glad you
:48:58. > :48:59.were listening! The Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee
:49:00. > :49:06.met today and, surprise, surprise, they're sticking to a historically
:49:07. > :49:19.low interest rate of 0.5%. But should rates rise soon? Joining me
:49:20. > :49:23.to discuss the pros and cons of an interest rate rise is Nigel Mills
:49:24. > :49:26.from the North East Entrepreneur's Forum, who is against a rate rise,
:49:27. > :49:48.and Andrew Lilico from the Institute of Economic Affairs, who is in
:49:49. > :49:53.favour. The initial circumstances that justify that has passed and we
:49:54. > :49:56.should seek to normalise levels to around to present at the earliest
:49:57. > :50:00.opportunity. The Bank of England has missed really as opportunities to do
:50:01. > :50:04.that when growth was picking up but with a more sustained growth it
:50:05. > :50:07.should be taking that chance. One problem with rates being so
:50:08. > :50:11.extraordinarily low is if anything further goes wrong, there is no
:50:12. > :50:16.scope to act so we should seek to have some normalisation, but going
:50:17. > :50:22.back to 5% something overnight but raising a little bit night and
:50:23. > :50:27.taking this chance. What do you say? Interest rates should stay where
:50:28. > :50:31.they are, the recovery is extremely fragile and people are dependent on
:50:32. > :50:35.no interest rates to be able to afford mortgages and businesses
:50:36. > :50:41.depend on them to be able to pay their loans and in the absence of
:50:42. > :50:47.any sustained growth period and the absence of wages inflation, which is
:50:48. > :50:51.1.1%, I do not see any point in raising interest rates and pouring
:50:52. > :50:57.cold water on the economy at this stage. Isn't an argument that the
:50:58. > :51:00.recovery is only just getting underway and it looks like it shall
:51:01. > :51:05.be quite strong this year but there is still a lot of zombie companies
:51:06. > :51:11.out there and if they had to pay more to service the debt, they could
:51:12. > :51:16.be in trouble and lots of people with mortgages could be in trouble
:51:17. > :51:20.as well. Why rush into this? It would be helpful to liquidate some
:51:21. > :51:23.of those companies because they are tying up capital and workers could
:51:24. > :51:28.be used in more productive activities and it slows growth the
:51:29. > :51:32.medium term. Furthermore, adding such low interest rates is liable to
:51:33. > :51:37.mean that as a recovery occurs, a number of businesses take on unwise
:51:38. > :51:40.loans in order to fund non-viable projects so it would be better to
:51:41. > :51:45.take the opportunity to make things a little to eliminate the most
:51:46. > :51:47.egregious examples of zombie companies and nobody is talking
:51:48. > :51:53.about rates becoming unsupportive, we still want loose monetary but
:51:54. > :52:00.this is just to move away from the emergency levels from 2009. That is
:52:01. > :52:06.the point, the emergency is over and we wait to see the strength of the
:52:07. > :52:13.recovery but the crisis has gone both here and in the Eurozone? Not
:52:14. > :52:19..5% is a huge historical anomaly? They will have to rise? Interest
:52:20. > :52:24.rates will have to rise in terribly, inevitably, but a long
:52:25. > :52:28.time in the future. The UK economy operates not independently but as
:52:29. > :52:36.part of the world economy and when you have lower interest rates in
:52:37. > :52:40.America, record rates in Europe, those economies slowly recover as
:52:41. > :52:46.well. Why would we put the British economy at a huge disadvantage are
:52:47. > :52:50.advocating an interest rate rise now before the recovery has retaken hold
:52:51. > :52:56.and before the benefits of that recovery have been felt? We are only
:52:57. > :53:03.talking about the minister to freight by the Bank of England but
:53:04. > :53:11.the markets a body spoken? -- administrative rate. Bonds will
:53:12. > :53:13.likely rise more and that is a return to normality and the basis
:53:14. > :53:20.upon which many companies will borrow, on 3% and this is happening,
:53:21. > :53:23.you are getting the rates rise? And I am pleased by that and I think the
:53:24. > :53:29.Bank of England is behind that curve. As illustrated by the broader
:53:30. > :53:36.yields. Does it matter if it is behind the curve? Because one of the
:53:37. > :53:40.dangers that we can see is once we get into recovery, the enormous
:53:41. > :53:46.amount of printing gets leveraged as Hanks look healthier and they are
:53:47. > :53:49.more willing to lend and we have had a strong recovery over the past year
:53:50. > :53:54.with bank lending continuing to contract and that started to rise,
:53:55. > :53:58.we could see a rise in broad money that was difficult to control which
:53:59. > :54:04.might lead into an unsustainable and one of the key things is to act
:54:05. > :54:06.early. It is a mistake to wait until everything looks like it is
:54:07. > :54:11.completely sweet because by then, you might be too late to act to
:54:12. > :54:16.prevent the next crisis. We shall have to leave it there. Thank you.
:54:17. > :54:19.If success in leadership is measured by how badly your organisation does
:54:20. > :54:21.after you leave then if there were any doubts about Alex Ferguson's
:54:22. > :54:24.credentials, then Manchester United's losing streak since he
:54:25. > :54:28.stood down have perhaps confirmed his brilliance. And with Fergie at a
:54:29. > :54:32.loose end, where should he direct his energies next? Well, one Labour
:54:33. > :54:35.MP has written to Ed Miliband urging him to call on the Labour supporter
:54:36. > :55:01.and donor's talents in the run-up to next year's general election. You
:55:02. > :55:12.were a left winger playing football? ! I was not a great footballer? My
:55:13. > :55:16.brother was a goalkeeper. Fascinating insight into the talents
:55:17. > :55:19.of Ed Miliband! We're joined now by the Labour MP John Mann and Michael
:55:20. > :55:28.Crick, who has written a biography of Alex Ferguson. Y Alex Ferguson?
:55:29. > :55:40.What can he do for the Labour Party? Leadership. He is a proven leader, a
:55:41. > :55:44.proven winner, and if he was to use his test on all of our policies,
:55:45. > :55:49.that would root out ones that will not actually persuade the British
:55:50. > :55:55.people. He would be a big asset to shake things up. Is it because Ed
:55:56. > :56:02.Miliband is not providing leadership or there is not enough morale? We
:56:03. > :56:08.always need a better cutting edge and I think Sir Alex Ferguson could
:56:09. > :56:12.give that. And make sure the entire Cabinet is performing as a team.
:56:13. > :56:17.They are not gelling together? They can always improve and to win this
:56:18. > :56:25.election, that kind of leadership at the top and that kind of advice
:56:26. > :56:29.would be very valuable indeed. I am sure Ed Miliband is considering this
:56:30. > :56:34.and I am sure that Sir Alex will be called upon. Would the chemistry
:56:35. > :56:39.work? It would be perfect because what leaders need, to become Prime
:56:40. > :56:43.Minister, Ed Miliband has to surround himself by people not
:56:44. > :56:49.liking. It is what Tony Blair did, Campbell, Mandelson. Alex Ferguson
:56:50. > :56:56.is not like Ed Miliband. They are poles apart. Is this a brilliant
:56:57. > :57:04.idea? You have kept a straight face! I am absolutely amazed! This is a
:57:05. > :57:09.joke? ! No, it is not! I am a Chelsea fan. Do you believe football
:57:10. > :57:15.managers could help? This is nonsense but there was a load of
:57:16. > :57:20.divisiveness that surrounds Sir Alex Ferguson, people think he is a
:57:21. > :57:27.bully. He is a great leader? You will not push me on that, I am blue
:57:28. > :57:31.to the core. There is no way that micro-you might be read in
:57:32. > :57:36.politics... That is part of the problem politics has. Abraham
:57:37. > :57:41.Lincoln brought his enemies into the camp and I am saying to Ed Miliband,
:57:42. > :57:50.who is a Leeds fan, bring our archenemy, Sir Alex Ferguson, in,
:57:51. > :57:52.let his skills work. There is a move to draft Sir Alex Ferguson into the
:57:53. > :57:56.no campaign for Scottish independence. There's just time
:57:57. > :58:00.before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: What
:58:01. > :58:03.new TV programme has BNP leader Nick Griffin launched on his party's
:58:04. > :58:06.website? His own fitness and work-out DVD? A cookery programme?
:58:07. > :58:13.An interior design show? Or a money advice service? What's the correct
:58:14. > :58:19.answer? I do not know! A cookery programme. In case you're not a
:58:20. > :58:21.regular viewer of BNP TV, here are the not-so-subtle political messages
:58:22. > :58:24.that Mr Griffin managed to shoehorn into his show: Look at this that
:58:25. > :58:29.micro-2 carrots, some sweet. You cannot have too much sweet, unless
:58:30. > :58:34.you are good. English cookery was the best in for centuries. Very
:58:35. > :58:40.advanced, great mixture of spices. It became very simple after the
:58:41. > :58:45.Hanoverian skim over from Germany and they had a very bland form of
:58:46. > :58:50.cookery. Don't let people tell you you must have huge drummers of
:58:51. > :58:54.immigrants to have good cooking. We have Mexican and Italian restaurants
:58:55. > :59:05.not far from here. No worries for Nigella Lawson! That's all for
:59:06. > :59:08.today. I am back at 11:35pm tonight. Katie Hopkins joins me. Goodbye.