:00:39. > :00:47.Afternoon, folks, and welcome to The Daily Politics. EU Referendum Bill
:00:48. > :00:51.is back. Did you miss it? I did. This time, it is a war of attrition
:00:52. > :00:58.in the House of Lords. There they are, settling in on the red benches
:00:59. > :01:03.for the debate over the future of Europe and its relationship with the
:01:04. > :01:06.British public . David Cameron says the floods were down to climate
:01:07. > :01:15.change. His Environment Secretary does not sound quite so sure. We
:01:16. > :01:20.will debate the issue. And why is Ayn Rand still so influential on the
:01:21. > :01:26.right of politics? And the New Year is going from bad to worse for
:01:27. > :01:29.Francois Hollande. Has he decided to embrace austerity, as well as an
:01:30. > :01:34.actress, and will it do him any good?
:01:35. > :01:40.All of that is coming up in the next hour. With me for the generation, to
:01:41. > :01:45.journalists that I said I would never share the studio with again,
:01:46. > :01:51.until hell froze over. And I meant it. Unfortunately, the small town of
:01:52. > :01:56.Hell in Michigan did freeze over this week. So, here they are again,
:01:57. > :02:03.it is David Wooding and Helen Lewis. Happy New Year.
:02:04. > :02:09.. Let's start with EU migration. David Cameron began the year talking
:02:10. > :02:12.about restricting what he called "mass population movements" around
:02:13. > :02:14.the EU. Yesterday, the Vice President of the European
:02:15. > :02:17.Commission, Viviane Reding, who has previously called for a United
:02:18. > :02:21.States of Europe, said there wasn't an invasion of foreigners stealing
:02:22. > :02:23.jobs and draining welfare. She even said the British Government was
:02:24. > :02:27.destroying the future of its people. It's not just the Tories thinking
:02:28. > :02:29.about making it harder to move around the EU, here's Shadow
:02:30. > :02:33.Business Secretary Chuka Umunna speaking last night. I think low
:02:34. > :02:37.skill immigration, we believe that there was too much of it from the
:02:38. > :02:40.European Union, and I think there is one important thing about the
:02:41. > :02:44.European Union. The founders of the European Union had in mind free
:02:45. > :02:48.movement of workers, not free movement of job-seekers, and
:02:49. > :02:52.undoubtedly, we do have to work with our European partners to deal with
:02:53. > :02:56.that. I met with a number of them this week, are very open to that, if
:02:57. > :03:02.we constructively engage with them, and say, hey, do what we want, or we
:03:03. > :03:04.are going to walk. We asked the Labour spokesperson to come onto the
:03:05. > :03:09.show this morning to tell us more about this policy, was it made on
:03:10. > :03:14.the hoof, was it a new party policy, what does it mean? We were told, not
:03:15. > :03:18.surprisingly, that nobody was available. I suppose there are still
:03:19. > :03:22.working out what it means. Alan, are British politicians on the right and
:03:23. > :03:28.the left, having never read the Treaty of Rome -- Helen? That was
:03:29. > :03:34.the David Dimbleby question, can you rewrite the Treaty of Rome at 11
:03:35. > :03:37.o'clock on BBC One? You can't, but it is difficult, because at the
:03:38. > :03:43.moment, you can move somewhere and start a business, for example. If
:03:44. > :03:46.this was reciprocated, Britain has the fourth largest amounts of
:03:47. > :03:50.emigrants in the EU, and they would be affected as much as people coming
:03:51. > :03:55.into Britain. I am not sure that he was right that the Treaty of Rome
:03:56. > :03:59.was basically mainly arranged for workers to be able to move across
:04:00. > :04:03.borders. It is about the movement of people. It is about the movement of
:04:04. > :04:08.people and the other interesting thing is that when the treatment was
:04:09. > :04:12.signed, there were 28 countries and this has extended. What we voted for
:04:13. > :04:15.in the original referendum back in the 1970s was a small handful of
:04:16. > :04:20.Western European countries. I think what he is doing, what Chuka Umunna
:04:21. > :04:25.is doing, is trying to get Labour more on the side of public opinion
:04:26. > :04:30.on this. He's not going as far as David Cameron, by saying we want to
:04:31. > :04:35.have some controls, he's showing that Labour is serious about doing
:04:36. > :04:38.something about immigration. There were a lot of apologies about the
:04:39. > :04:42.transitional controls, about Polish people coming in, and that is
:04:43. > :04:46.something you hear a lot. Gordon Brown famously talked about British
:04:47. > :04:52.jobs for British workers at one stage, and then Ed Balls has kind of
:04:53. > :04:55.implied, in 2010, he was talking about European leaders revisiting
:04:56. > :05:01.the freedom of movement directive. Yvette Cooper has raised similar
:05:02. > :05:08.concerns, in March of last year. It is a theme that Labour bangles at
:05:09. > :05:15.every so often but it is very hard Yes, you are right. Yes, you are
:05:16. > :05:21.right, they are just showing a bit of leg. It is difficult ground for
:05:22. > :05:24.them. Ed Miliband is always the best looking at the data and public
:05:25. > :05:27.attitudes about immigration are essentially out of kilter about what
:05:28. > :05:32.is happening, but how do you tell the voters they are wrong? It is
:05:33. > :05:36.hard. And David Cameron can always throw back at Labour that they are
:05:37. > :05:41.the people who open the floodgates in the first place. You can be in or
:05:42. > :05:44.out of the EU, that is straightforward, but if you are in
:05:45. > :05:48.it, it involves the movement of people across borders. That is one
:05:49. > :05:55.of the basic club rules. Chuka Umunna did make a good point about
:05:56. > :05:57.the high and low skills, it is ridiculous that people are working
:05:58. > :06:01.copy shop say when they have a Masters degree, that is not good for
:06:02. > :06:07.the origin country or here. That is a society. Yes, the way the cookie
:06:08. > :06:12.crumbles. The one piece of good news for the Government is may have been
:06:13. > :06:20.attacked by the vice president of the European Commission, Viviane
:06:21. > :06:26.Reding, and when an unknown official attacks the country, that is when
:06:27. > :06:32.they will get some support. All she has done is shown have out of touch
:06:33. > :06:35.the European institutions are with public opinion over here. She's
:06:36. > :06:38.basically saying it is been stoked by politicians for their own ends,
:06:39. > :06:42.but there is no need for them to do that, they should be hiding it under
:06:43. > :06:47.the carpet. Labour are not in a good place under immigration and David
:06:48. > :06:52.Cameron has a big problem with it, they are not stoking it up, it is
:06:53. > :06:55.public opinion. Viviane Reding, if you are watching in Brussels, come
:06:56. > :06:58.onto the Daily Politics and have a word about these things. Being a
:06:59. > :07:04.European official, you would like to be held accountable. Now, if you
:07:05. > :07:06.would like to have a vote on staying in or coming out of the European
:07:07. > :07:17.Union in the next couple of years, time is not on your side. The EU
:07:18. > :07:21.Referendum Bill is being discussed in the Lords today, although whether
:07:22. > :07:24.it will get much further is another matter. It's not a Government bill,
:07:25. > :07:27.because the Tories couldn't get the Lib Dems to agree. So they drafted
:07:28. > :07:30.the legislation themselves and let the backbencher James Wharton
:07:31. > :07:32.introduce it in the Commons. Now it is the turn of Tory Peer Michael
:07:33. > :07:35.Dobbs to steering through the House of Lords. The proposed legislation
:07:36. > :07:37.requires a referendum to be held in December 2017 at the latest.
:07:38. > :07:39.However, like most Private Members Bills, there is the risk of running
:07:40. > :07:45.out of time and suspicions that Labour and Lib Dem peers will try
:07:46. > :07:48.quietly to kill it off. And if those appears that oppose the plans
:07:49. > :07:52.managed to pile on the amendments, it will keep the bill stuck in the
:07:53. > :07:56.Lords until the end of February and the bill just dies and the Tories
:07:57. > :08:00.will have to start all over again. If they have the stomach for it.
:08:01. > :08:02.Joining me now from the House of Lords is Labour Peer Donald
:08:03. > :08:09.Anderson. Welcome to the Daily Politics, is the plan to filibuster
:08:10. > :08:14.this bill? No, I have had very clear instructions from our chief whip not
:08:15. > :08:17.to filibuster, but we have to do what is the traditional role of the
:08:18. > :08:21.House of Lords, to give any bill proper scrutiny and clearly, this
:08:22. > :08:25.has not been given proper or sufficient scrutiny in the House of
:08:26. > :08:30.Commons. It cannot be steam-rollered through the second chamber. Is it
:08:31. > :08:34.your view that the House of Lords would like the British people to
:08:35. > :08:40.have a vote on European membership? I don't think the Lords would want
:08:41. > :08:43.this bill but at some stage, if it be necessary, for example if there
:08:44. > :08:47.were some substantial change, and that is already under the referendum
:08:48. > :08:54.Act, then there is a very strong case for a referendum, but I see no
:08:55. > :08:59.reason at all for saying now and trying to bind the Government which
:09:00. > :09:02.will be elected in 2015, there will be a referendum. Because no
:09:03. > :09:07.Government can bind its successor. It can only lead and the
:09:08. > :09:12.Conservative Party I do think they will not win the election or that
:09:13. > :09:18.they have no trust in Mr Cameron to honour his commitments, or both.
:09:19. > :09:23.Just as we have been talking about the freedom of movement of people
:09:24. > :09:27.across Europe as a foundation stone of the Treaty of Rome, is it's not a
:09:28. > :09:32.foundation stone of our Constitution that this Parliament cannot bind
:09:33. > :09:37.another parliament --is it not? Absolutely, which is why it is
:09:38. > :09:42.absurd. The only motive behind this bill is that the Conservatives have
:09:43. > :09:47.looked over their shoulder, seen the threat from UKIP and have moved in
:09:48. > :09:51.that direction. They will not win the UKIP voters that way. They will
:09:52. > :09:55.be blown up in the flames and consume themselves, because the UKIP
:09:56. > :10:00.voters will demand the real thing. Are you out to amend the bill? I
:10:01. > :10:04.think it does deserve an amendment, it deserves serious scrutiny. For
:10:05. > :10:11.example the map on the question on whether the electrical -- on the
:10:12. > :10:14.question of whether the electoral commission, examining questions like
:10:15. > :10:17.this, said they were not happy with the question. The electorate needs
:10:18. > :10:20.to be looked at, and a whole series of other questions, otherwise it
:10:21. > :10:25.will be recklessly pushed through by the Government and that is against
:10:26. > :10:30.our Constitution. It purports to be a Private Members Bill but it is
:10:31. > :10:35.actually a conservative bill, three line whip, by the Conservative Party
:10:36. > :10:38.in the Commons. Is there not something a little bit Gilbert and
:10:39. > :10:43.Sullivan about an unelected chamber trying to deny the rest of us an
:10:44. > :10:50.election? I am not denying an election. The Government claimed
:10:51. > :10:55.that there will not be a referendum in any account until 2017. And that
:10:56. > :10:58.will depend on the negotiations. That is a long way down the road.
:10:59. > :11:03.Europe may change, our Government may change, and therefore there are
:11:04. > :11:10.so many uncertainties. It may well be that there is a case but we don't
:11:11. > :11:15.know. The timetable of 2017 is wholly unrealistic. Anyone who knows
:11:16. > :11:20.Europe will know that to have full negotiations and a ratification by
:11:21. > :11:29.all countries simply cannot be achieved within that period up to
:11:30. > :11:32.2017, said the only question possible during that time is do you
:11:33. > :11:36.think your Government should continue with negotiations. It is
:11:37. > :11:40.absurd. Donald Anderson stick with us. We are joined now by the former
:11:41. > :11:45.leader of the House of Lords under the Conservatives, Tom Strathclyde.
:11:46. > :11:48.What is this all about in the end, other than a party political move by
:11:49. > :11:53.the Tories? Because you cannot bind, as everyone agrees, the next
:11:54. > :11:58.Parliament. I think this is a tremendous symbol and a signal to
:11:59. > :12:03.the electorate that this Parliament is serious about giving people their
:12:04. > :12:07.say about the future of Europe and whether or not we should continue
:12:08. > :12:12.down the path of an ever closer union, which we have developed over
:12:13. > :12:17.the course of the last 40 years. And the public, I think, are very
:12:18. > :12:20.uncertain about our role in Europe. They now have an opportunity, if
:12:21. > :12:24.this bill goes through, to prepare themselves for a referendum which
:12:25. > :12:30.will take place before the end of 2017, four campaigns to get going
:12:31. > :12:34.for and us remaining in the EU -- the campaigns. This gives us plenty
:12:35. > :12:41.of time to resolve the difficulties and uncertainties so that we get a
:12:42. > :12:45.clear result. But it could be all over by the end of the next
:12:46. > :12:49.Parliament? And one of the reasons to get it in statute before the
:12:50. > :12:53.General Election is to give the parties that will be standing at the
:12:54. > :12:56.election the opportunity to say loud and clear to the people of this
:12:57. > :13:00.country whether they intend to continue with this legislation or to
:13:01. > :13:05.scrap it if they get elected. You could get the same result by asking
:13:06. > :13:09.people if they would support a referendum or not. But over the
:13:10. > :13:13.course of the last 20 years, there have been countless examples of
:13:14. > :13:16.where politicians have promised a referendum before general elections
:13:17. > :13:20.and not delivered them. Most recently, it was Tony Blair who
:13:21. > :13:24.promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but when it came about, he
:13:25. > :13:29.said it wasn't what he intended it to be and therefore we didn't need a
:13:30. > :13:33.referendum. Wasn't it David Cameron that promised us a cast-iron
:13:34. > :13:39.guarantee on a referendum? Only if this treaty has not been ratified.
:13:40. > :13:43.It was common sense. What you're saying is you need this legislation,
:13:44. > :13:48.because basically, we, the voters, do not trust you, that is what
:13:49. > :13:52.you're saying. Lets keep the parties honest on this hugely important
:13:53. > :13:56.issue -- let's keep. And on this issue, we are reaching beyond
:13:57. > :13:59.politicians and politics and appealing directly to the people of
:14:00. > :14:03.the country and saying you are directly responsible for making this
:14:04. > :14:10.decision and we should not decide, over to you. This is a Private
:14:11. > :14:13.Members Bill. Could you use the Parliament Act to get it through? In
:14:14. > :14:18.theory. I really hope that does not apply and I made the point early on
:14:19. > :14:22.that it is ridiculous for an appointed house to stand not just
:14:23. > :14:26.against the will of the regulated House of Commons that has passed the
:14:27. > :14:29.bill, but also on a bill that is over all of our heads and says to
:14:30. > :14:35.the people of the country, you must have your say. Of what you say to
:14:36. > :14:39.that, Donald Anderson? I think it is absurd. The truth is they would not
:14:40. > :14:46.be a referendum in any event until 2017. Lord Strathclyde said it is a
:14:47. > :14:49.signal, only of Tory divisions and the Tories retreating before UKIP.
:14:50. > :14:53.Two years ago, David Cameron and William Hague ruled out and in-out
:14:54. > :14:58.referendum and if we were to vote out, where would we be? We do not
:14:59. > :15:02.know if we want a Norwegian president, if we want to somehow
:15:03. > :15:07.Seagate new deal with the Commonwealth -- seek out. We would
:15:08. > :15:11.be in insurgency, and there would be four years of uncertainty that is
:15:12. > :15:16.going to put off foreign investment. We have seen this with Nissan,
:15:17. > :15:22.Hitachi, the Japanese Government and CBI all saying that it would be
:15:23. > :15:26.contrary to our national interest. They got all of what you say may
:15:27. > :15:29.well be true and a strong argument, but that is an argument are having a
:15:30. > :15:33.referendum. That is not in arguing for or against. If you believe in
:15:34. > :15:39.these arguments, and many people do, then have the referendum and
:15:40. > :15:42.argue it out and let people decide. But the timing is absolutely
:15:43. > :15:47.crucial. There may or may not be a case for a referendum, there will be
:15:48. > :16:01.several questions, but we will not know about it, certainly Give us
:16:02. > :16:08.your best guess, what will happen to this bill in the Lords? I think
:16:09. > :16:12.there is a possibility that this will run into the sands, and then it
:16:13. > :16:21.will be a matter for the electorate in 2015 to vote or not to vote for a
:16:22. > :16:26.party which has a referendum at an appropriate time in its manifesto.
:16:27. > :16:30.Would you advise Ed Miliband not to go down this referendum route, not
:16:31. > :16:35.to have this in the Labour manifesto? I would say that the
:16:36. > :16:40.appropriate stance for the Labour Party in 2015 is to say, look, we
:16:41. > :16:45.already have a referendum act, having a referendum if there are
:16:46. > :16:52.substantial changes, new powers, to the European Union. That may or may
:16:53. > :16:56.not -- there may or may not be a case for an in-out referendum. That
:16:57. > :17:06.depends completely on the circumstances at the time. What is
:17:07. > :17:09.planned be, Lord Strathclyde? I am not in the government, so I do not
:17:10. > :17:14.know what it is, or indeed if there should be one. What we need to do
:17:15. > :17:21.now is to make sure that this bill... He has just said that his
:17:22. > :17:24.advice to the Labour Party is not to concede the principle of a
:17:25. > :17:28.referendum to the people of this country. He is saying to the leader
:17:29. > :17:33.of the Labour Party, you must not go down this route. I think that is
:17:34. > :17:40.complete madness. It is a clear position. It is a clear position
:17:41. > :17:46.from Donnell, but not from the leadership my feeling has been that
:17:47. > :17:52.because Ed Miliband's narrative is such as it is, that he will not go
:17:53. > :17:57.down the referendum route. I am seeing less and less reasons we
:17:58. > :18:02.could have a referendum on anything, whether David Cameron should go to
:18:03. > :18:07.see a hairdresser. But the trouble about this is that it becomes more
:18:08. > :18:11.and more clear as this bill goes through its endless, tortuous stages
:18:12. > :18:15.that this is a Tory obsession, it is not a national obsession. I did not
:18:16. > :18:20.go home at Christmas, with my family clinging to my leg, saying, when,
:18:21. > :18:25.oh, when are we going to have this referendum on Europe? That is the
:18:26. > :18:28.point, that it is not an issue which is gripping the nation, it is
:18:29. > :18:34.gripping a small portion of the Tory party. Well, it is and it isn't,
:18:35. > :18:37.because the issue of in or out may not grip the nation, but it is
:18:38. > :18:43.inextricably linked with the question of immigration.
:18:44. > :18:47.Immigration, welfare, all of those are inextricably linked with Europe.
:18:48. > :18:51.A lot of the problems we have are related to Europe. Labour let the
:18:52. > :18:54.cat out of the bag today when Lord Mandelson said it is a lottery, if
:18:55. > :18:59.we have a referendum, in other words, we do not trust the people. I
:19:00. > :19:03.think what Labour are doing is trying to keep their options open. I
:19:04. > :19:09.do not think they want a referendum, but they are not going to say so
:19:10. > :19:11.just yet. We will leave it there. Thank you for joining us on The
:19:12. > :19:23.Daily Politics. Now, earlier this morning, a police
:19:24. > :19:26.person who falsely claimed to have seen Andrew Mitchell arguing with
:19:27. > :19:29.officers outside Downing Street has pleaded guilty to misconduct in
:19:30. > :19:35.public office. It revolves around what was said at the gates of
:19:36. > :19:39.Downing Street as Mr Mitchell tried to go through on his bike. While we
:19:40. > :19:44.have been on air, he has responded to this development, and told the
:19:45. > :19:49.press Association, I am pleased that justice has been done in the
:19:50. > :19:52.criminal court today. It is very sad and worrying for all of us that a
:19:53. > :19:58.serving police officer should have behaved in this way, and there
:19:59. > :20:03.remains many questions unanswered, in particular, why the PC wrote this
:20:04. > :20:07.e-mail, and who else was involved in this process.
:20:08. > :20:13.We will bring you any further developments on that if they happen
:20:14. > :20:17.while we are on air. When you woke up this morning, did you think, we
:20:18. > :20:25.have got some extreme weather, caused by climate change? Well, this
:20:26. > :20:29.week, David Cameron told MPs he very much suspects the recent floods are
:20:30. > :20:33.linked to climate change. His Environment Secretary has taken
:20:34. > :20:36.something of a different view. In our entirely unscientific
:20:37. > :20:40.contribution to the debate, Adam has taken his balls out for the first
:20:41. > :20:46.time in 2014 to see which way the wind is blowing. It has finally
:20:47. > :20:49.stopped raining, which means we can bring out The Daily Politics mood
:20:50. > :20:53.box to ask the public what they think is to blame for the extreme
:20:54. > :20:59.weather. Is it mostly climate change, or is it just the weather?
:21:00. > :21:08.With the wind, the heavy rain and the flooding, I think it is climate
:21:09. > :21:19.change. It is not something we have had before. A bit of uncertainty,
:21:20. > :21:24.just like in the real world. This is going to affect you in about 20
:21:25. > :21:32.years! Short answer, climate change, it is the melting of the
:21:33. > :21:37.icebergs. We have got about 25 tourists from Arkansas. How cold is
:21:38. > :21:41.it back home? It is very cold. They are all going for just the weather,
:21:42. > :21:45.which I think is the opposite of what President Obama thinks. It is
:21:46. > :21:50.the weather, it cycles in and it cycles out. So, do you think all of
:21:51. > :22:00.the people who voted for just the weather are wrong? Yes. You could
:22:01. > :22:07.plot the weather on your scarf. I know. As the strange weather been
:22:08. > :22:14.affect finger painting and decorating business? Yes, on the
:22:15. > :22:18.outside, it has, yes. -- has it been affecting the painting and
:22:19. > :22:29.decorating business? Thank you very much. There is actually no evidence
:22:30. > :22:34.since 1997 that the planet is warming up. It hasn't been, and I
:22:35. > :22:41.think it is just an opportunity for a lot of people do make a lot of
:22:42. > :22:56.money out of climate change. -- to make. You have been talking about it
:22:57. > :23:02.for about ten minutes. Yes, week believe it could be a meteorite
:23:03. > :23:06.disturbance in outer space. Well, it is true what they say, British
:23:07. > :23:12.people do love talking about the weather and the climate, although
:23:13. > :23:18.after all that, it is kind of 50-50. Certainly no warming here, I am
:23:19. > :23:25.absolutely freezing! They also think Adam is a lizard. The jury is open
:23:26. > :23:29.on that one. I am joined now by the leader of the Green Party, Natalie
:23:30. > :23:34.Bennett, and by the journalist and conservative here Matt Ridley. Is
:23:35. > :23:40.climate change to blame for the stormy weather? Of course, any
:23:41. > :23:43.individual event of weather is just that, weather. But what we are
:23:44. > :23:47.seeing around the world at the moment is an awful lot of what what
:23:48. > :23:53.we might call, in quotation marks, weather. In Australia, we have had
:23:54. > :23:57.thousands of bats falling from the trees, we have had records broken
:23:58. > :24:01.since Christmas. We have got the storms in the US, we have the
:24:02. > :24:05.cyclone in the Philippines. We have a situation where what we can expect
:24:06. > :24:09.is more extreme weather, and more of it. Therefore what we have got fits
:24:10. > :24:14.with that pattern for climate change. So, whatever happens with
:24:15. > :24:18.the weather, if it is really warm, or really cold, or really flooding
:24:19. > :24:22.in Britain, it is all down to global warming? If it is extreme weather,
:24:23. > :24:26.and we are seeing more of it, that is a result of climate change. We
:24:27. > :24:31.have had extreme weather before the idea of global warming. We have
:24:32. > :24:34.indeed, but what we are seeing is more of it. It is really quite
:24:35. > :24:41.simple, in terms of the rain we are seeing at the moment, we all know
:24:42. > :24:44.the basic frigates? -- physics, that if you have higher temperatures, you
:24:45. > :24:49.are going to get more evaporation and therefore more rain. Why did we
:24:50. > :24:53.think we were going to get limited precipitation this winter? Kos our
:24:54. > :25:00.weather predictions are still limited. But the Met Office is all
:25:01. > :25:13.part of the holy Grail, isn't it, they are completely informed by
:25:14. > :25:19.global warming, aren't they? The holy Grail, as you put it, is as
:25:20. > :25:22.backed by 97% of climate scientists, by the IPCC report, the most
:25:23. > :25:31.scrutinised science report in history. Let's just go to that
:25:32. > :25:38.report. It concludes, we have low confidence that flooding events are
:25:39. > :25:43.being caused by global warming. And we can go to the response from Ban
:25:44. > :25:53.Ki-Moon on this. He said, in response to that report, that the
:25:54. > :25:56.heat is on... The IPCC report says they have low confidence that
:25:57. > :26:02.flooding is being caused by climate change. That is the report! What
:26:03. > :26:06.this demonstrates, and I was on one of the last trains to Oxford before
:26:07. > :26:10.the line was stopped by flooding, and lots of people on the train were
:26:11. > :26:14.looking out the window at seems like we have behind us. Quite a lot of
:26:15. > :26:24.people were going, well, that is amazing. And there was fear and
:26:25. > :26:27.surprise. So your answer to the science of the IPCC report is a
:26:28. > :26:33.train journey to Oxford? All of our human life, our ability to feed
:26:34. > :26:41.ourselves, how is ourselves, live safely, is dependent on the climate.
:26:42. > :26:45.When you look around, there is something happening. We may not be
:26:46. > :26:49.able to explain it, but Natalie Bennett is right, everywhere you
:26:50. > :26:53.look, there are extreme weather events taking place. There was a
:26:54. > :26:59.report in the paper this morning that the Thames has reached a record
:27:00. > :27:03.level, since 2003. So, that record is only ten years old. If you look
:27:04. > :27:08.at all of these storms, lots of bad weather, they are all the worst for
:27:09. > :27:15.20 years, 40 years, 100 years. But what was happening then? Was that
:27:16. > :27:20.climate change? Of course not. Australia seems to be hotter than
:27:21. > :27:27.ever. Yes, but categorically, it is impossible to say that this is due
:27:28. > :27:31.to climate change. We had a cold, calm winter last year, we are having
:27:32. > :27:36.a mild, stormy winter this year. It happens. You're going to get these
:27:37. > :27:43.kinds of weather events whether the climate is warming or not. We should
:27:44. > :27:48.not worry so much about the trend. But the IPCC report does say, the
:27:49. > :27:51.frequency and intensity of heavy precipitation events overland wheel
:27:52. > :28:01.likely increase on average in the near-term. It also says, confidence
:28:02. > :28:08.in the trends regarding tropical cyclones since 1900 is low. The IPCC
:28:09. > :28:11.say they have got 95% confidence that this climate change is
:28:12. > :28:15.happening. You have got a plane, there is a 95% risk it is going to
:28:16. > :28:21.crash, are you going to get on that plane? I do not think so. So
:28:22. > :28:23.therefore, we have to take action against climate change to secure the
:28:24. > :28:28.future of the planet of the human race. The question is, is action
:28:29. > :28:32.against carbon emissions the most effective way of preventing bad
:28:33. > :28:36.weather? The answer is clearly no. All sorts of other things are
:28:37. > :28:40.affecting plants, like development, house-building, on flood plains.
:28:41. > :28:43.Let's deal with that. That effectively is what David Cameron
:28:44. > :28:48.said. He said, whatever your views, you should be doing as much as
:28:49. > :28:51.possible to mitigate and plan for floods and storms, which is quite
:28:52. > :28:58.right. Is their agreement on that? Entirely. One thing we need to do,
:28:59. > :29:01.and he might agree with me, is that we are not doing nearly enough to
:29:02. > :29:09.conserve energy, too insulated our homes. Doing that would create up to
:29:10. > :29:15.200,000 jobs, drastically cut fuel poverty and cut carbon emissions but
:29:16. > :29:19.we could also not charge people too much for their electricity because
:29:20. > :29:23.of renewables. And of course the fault of the rising prices of bills
:29:24. > :29:28.is because of the rising price of gas, not because of renewables. 95%
:29:29. > :29:33.of the increase is due to gas. Not in the future, it is but I think
:29:34. > :29:39.your probability of dying as a result of extreme weather is down by
:29:40. > :29:44.98% since the 1920s globally. That is not because the weather got less
:29:45. > :29:46.dangerous, that is because we have got better housing, communication
:29:47. > :29:53.and transport, which makes storms more survivable. That is what we
:29:54. > :29:58.should be focusing on. So, for a good example, we should not be
:29:59. > :30:01.cutting the coastguard. Well, the amount of investment that the
:30:02. > :30:06.Government is putting into floods is actually a record. I think there has
:30:07. > :30:10.been a lot of debate about this, but the independent analysts say
:30:11. > :30:14.spending is going down in real terms. That is not my
:30:15. > :30:18.understanding, I understand there is a record amount being spent on flood
:30:19. > :30:22.mitigation. Whatever it is, the Environment Agency in this country
:30:23. > :30:28.actually has a gigantic budget and staff compared to most countries.
:30:29. > :30:36.But not go down the coastguard route, is it your contention that
:30:37. > :30:40.there is not really an increase in extreme weather events, and that
:30:41. > :30:53.global warming has nothing to do with these events to mark -- these
:30:54. > :30:56.events? Natalie is right that you will see more precipitation and
:30:57. > :31:07.there are benefits to that, droughts have shrunk in intensity as well.
:31:08. > :31:15.That is not true. It is. But in terms of her against... They cannot
:31:16. > :31:19.find a trend in 30 years in the frequency of hurricanes, typhoons
:31:20. > :31:27.and tornadoes hit a 30 year low in America. One-year's weather.
:31:28. > :31:32.Absolutely, but we are seeing very low trends in the last 30 or 40
:31:33. > :31:38.years for any of these weather events and the IPCC says that, there
:31:39. > :31:42.is no detectable incidence of global warming on extreme weather and there
:31:43. > :31:47.will not be possibly for the whole of this century, they said that in
:31:48. > :31:53.2011 in a report. I think we can come back to the survey that you
:31:54. > :31:58.started with a note sure -- and I am sure we all understand it is a piece
:31:59. > :32:01.of fun but three quarters of the British public say they believe that
:32:02. > :32:04.human caused climate change is happening now and we need to act. It
:32:05. > :32:15.is the wisdom of crowds and the wisdom of climate scientists. Just
:32:16. > :32:19.on the politics of this, the Tories are now in a strange position. As
:32:20. > :32:24.part of the rebranding of getting away from the cuddly party, the
:32:25. > :32:27.nasty party, to becoming a cuddly party and not a nasty party, Mister
:32:28. > :32:33.Cameron signed the Tories up to the whole global warming agenda, and so
:32:34. > :32:38.he keeps on blaming Ed Miliband for the 2008 climate change act and he
:32:39. > :32:42.voted for every clause in it, so did his party, but he actually leads a
:32:43. > :32:49.party that most of them don't believe in it. I know, those poor
:32:50. > :32:53.huskies. There is an issue here, the three main party leaders all believe
:32:54. > :32:56.the same thing on climate change, but there is a big proportion of the
:32:57. > :33:00.Tory party that is not signed up to that, and a big proportion of the
:33:01. > :33:03.country, so there is a danger of it being a Westminster consensus that
:33:04. > :33:07.does not include the rest of the country. It will be interesting to
:33:08. > :33:10.see what the Tory attitude to this will be, because Labour and the Lib
:33:11. > :33:15.Dems will stick with this, that is part of their approach to life but
:33:16. > :33:20.it will be interesting to see what the Tory manifesto says. The big war
:33:21. > :33:26.is not about climate change itself, it is about energy bells and what
:33:27. > :33:29.the punter is paying to heat their homes -- energy bills. We have what
:33:30. > :33:33.Labour have promised and the action by the Conservatives, that is where
:33:34. > :33:37.they will focus and I think they will cut the green rubbish, if I can
:33:38. > :33:44.use that word... You can use the word rubbish but you cannot use the
:33:45. > :33:48.word that David Cameron said. Why I think some of this green stuff is
:33:49. > :33:53.now being viewed more sceptically, I think it has been over spun by the
:33:54. > :33:56.climate change lobby. We talk about global warming, that word warming
:33:57. > :34:00.has gone because we are now actually freezing, and because it has over
:34:01. > :34:03.spun, more and more people are beginning to viewed sceptically. In
:34:04. > :34:07.the same way that the health lobby tellers to drink fewer units of wine
:34:08. > :34:12.every day and then we are told, actually, you can have a glass. I
:34:13. > :34:18.think the media has a problem with it, it is a huge, complicated issue.
:34:19. > :34:22.It is not just the media, because in 2008, Al Gore, based on climate
:34:23. > :34:27.science, told us the ice would be gone in the Arctic in 2013. Last
:34:28. > :34:31.time I looked, it was higher than it was for six or seven years and
:34:32. > :34:35.certainly hadn't gone. You are absolutely right, there is a
:34:36. > :34:40.consensus among climate scientists that the planet is warming. There is
:34:41. > :34:44.a consensus that man is playing a part in that, but there are huge
:34:45. > :34:49.arguments over what the actual impact would be on temperature,
:34:50. > :34:53.exactly how important man is compared to other issues and what of
:34:54. > :35:00.the policy should be to combat it. On that, there is no settled view.
:35:01. > :35:03.But it is worth thinking back about human history. The human race, we
:35:04. > :35:07.have developed the whole of civilisation through one of the most
:35:08. > :35:11.stable periods of the world's climate that we know about. We are
:35:12. > :35:16.dependent on that, to grow our crops, to house ourselves, to stay
:35:17. > :35:20.safe. We have no option but to live within the climate we have. But the
:35:21. > :35:24.point I was trying to get you to address and we will have to move on
:35:25. > :35:28.is that if you oversell the consequences, if you tell us the
:35:29. > :35:33.Arctic ice will disappear by 2013 and it hasn't, if you send ships out
:35:34. > :35:39.because you think there is no sea ice in the Antarctic and it turns
:35:40. > :35:42.out there is so much you get stuck, if you tell us that the Himalayan
:35:43. > :35:46.glacial as will disappear and they haven't, and even on current trends
:35:47. > :35:52.will not for 200 years... The fundamental case may be right but if
:35:53. > :35:57.you make hyperbolic predictions, you undermined your own case, is the
:35:58. > :36:01.point I am making. The point I would make is the case is there, the
:36:02. > :36:05.evidence is overwhelming and we have to act now. Al Gore and the
:36:06. > :36:11.scientists were wrong? Speaking they got wrong on the details. Hold on,
:36:12. > :36:16.it wasn't the detail but they would be no ice by 2013, it was an
:36:17. > :36:22.apocalyptic prediction. We have record low levels of ice, we are
:36:23. > :36:27.heading towards no ice. It is worth remembering that the Antarctic ice
:36:28. > :36:30.is... It is very good to see you both, thank you. Now, if there is
:36:31. > :36:34.one book every true libertarian likes a cosy up with on a cold
:36:35. > :36:39.January night, it is the novel Atlas Shrugged. You think they should get
:36:40. > :36:44.out a bit more. It was written by writer calmer who claimed to have
:36:45. > :36:51.invented a new code of morality based on reason alone -- it was
:36:52. > :37:10.written by Ayn Rand. Here is Charlie Wolf talking about Ayn Rand.
:37:11. > :37:16.These days, there is a huge market for books about unleashing the power
:37:17. > :37:19.of the self, the potential of the individual, and that is essentially
:37:20. > :37:24.the philosophy of the American author Ayn Rand. I have come to
:37:25. > :37:27.Borough market in London to meet a commentator and broadcaster who says
:37:28. > :37:36.he can explain her philosophy through the medium of letters. --
:37:37. > :37:41.lettuce. So, Charlie, why do you like Ayn Rand and what does she have
:37:42. > :37:45.to do with lettuce? The Fountainhead was a book that changed my life, it
:37:46. > :37:49.was a book I could not put down but as for lettuce, my father was a
:37:50. > :37:52.greengrocer and maybe you have had it happened when a parent says
:37:53. > :37:56.something that seems so innocuous but holds great meaning. He was
:37:57. > :38:06.stacking lettuce one day in a shop and said, do you know why I made a
:38:07. > :38:09.pyramid? Because I can. I am my own boss, nobody tells me how to stack
:38:10. > :38:12.the lettuce. So that simple act of stacking the lettuce was so like Ayn
:38:13. > :38:16.Rand, in that he was the author of his own destiny, no one told him how
:38:17. > :38:22.to. That was a pyramid of lettuce, let's take you to a pyramid of glass
:38:23. > :38:28.and steel, the Shark, which also has a lot to do with Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand
:38:29. > :38:33.was a Russian emigre, fiercely anti-Communist and unconventional in
:38:34. > :38:35.her lives. Even her fans than her tricky but Doctor Elisabeth Fraser
:38:36. > :38:41.of Oxford University say that her books were powerful. -- found her
:38:42. > :38:47.tricky. She is inspirational. Her view of free society has inspired so
:38:48. > :38:51.many people. A very, very controversial but if there were a
:38:52. > :38:54.prize for the author who has got the most people saying, I read this book
:38:55. > :39:08.and it changed my life, she would win it. We are now surrounded by the
:39:09. > :39:13.most incredible view from the restaurant in The Shard in London. I
:39:14. > :39:16.was just wondering, what was Ayn Rand's worldview? Her worldview
:39:17. > :39:23.would be that the people who built this view who built The Shard, and
:39:24. > :39:27.heroic amount of vision and in this building in particular, it is a
:39:28. > :39:31.cathedral. Not to God, she was an atheist, but a cathedral to the
:39:32. > :39:36.powers of mankind. Men were heard gods. She tended to present
:39:37. > :39:41.philosophical ideas as though they were her own invention, and that is
:39:42. > :39:48.strange to serious thinkers and politicians as well -- estranged. It
:39:49. > :39:52.was extraordinary that she refused to cooperate politically. Including
:39:53. > :39:57.with people who really liked her ideas and would have liked her to be
:39:58. > :40:01.a figurehead for a new conservatism in the 20th century. She was very
:40:02. > :40:07.sectarian and capable of being very nasty. However nasty, though, how
:40:08. > :40:13.many other political philosophers have had their books turned into a
:40:14. > :40:26.movie, with its enigmatic catchphrase, who is John Galt? It is
:40:27. > :40:30.us who rule the world. Atlas Shrugged is all about railways,
:40:31. > :40:37.steel and building a bridge, but not like the one we are standing next,
:40:38. > :40:40.which is a ugly and grubby. But people think the philosophy of Ayn
:40:41. > :40:45.Rand is the same, supremely selfish. Is that fair? Not if you
:40:46. > :40:49.define it the way that Ayn Rand did, it is about being true to
:40:50. > :40:53.yourself, taking care of yourself first and foremost. Not living off
:40:54. > :40:58.the state or off others and it is a noble way. If you can do that, think
:40:59. > :41:01.of how the roles of welfare would shrivel up, how society would be
:41:02. > :41:07.better off. It is a far better philosophy than living off the
:41:08. > :41:12.state. It is not just that many would not agree with that but in
:41:13. > :41:15.October 2011, some were prepared to camp out on the streets in front of
:41:16. > :41:23.Saint Pauls Cathedral to demonstrate their opposition to such views. But
:41:24. > :41:30.actually, pain Rand -- Ayn Rand predicted all of that. We went to
:41:31. > :41:35.The Shard, but here is Saint Paul's. She would not have gone in,
:41:36. > :41:38.she was an atheist. There is a cathedral to man, the stock exchange
:41:39. > :41:42.over there, but something here happened recently that you think
:41:43. > :41:50.makes Ayn Rand River that readily to relevant to today. This is where the
:41:51. > :41:53.protest as well and she described in her books this dystopian state, the
:41:54. > :42:00.welfare state, the moochers, the one who want the money for
:42:01. > :42:04.entitlement's sake and leeches, who demanded that on a moral imperative,
:42:05. > :42:09.companies and the churches paid more money, being altruistic with other
:42:10. > :42:13.people's many. This was a dystopian welfare state, collectivism that she
:42:14. > :42:19.hated. But she also did say it is trade, it is, is, it is jobs. That
:42:20. > :42:24.is what lifts people out of poverty, not giving them money. That is why
:42:25. > :42:33.Ayn Rand is relevant to today. Either way, who is John Galt?
:42:34. > :42:39.Charlie Wolf joins us in the studio now. What is the answer to the
:42:40. > :42:43.question? Who is John Galt, that is the question? This is the man who
:42:44. > :42:46.stopped the engine of the world in the book, went on strike and took
:42:47. > :42:50.his capital with him and showed that as much as people make derisory
:42:51. > :42:54.comments about the movers and shakers of the world, Starbucks and
:42:55. > :42:59.Amazons and Bill Gates, these are the guys that, for want of profit,
:43:00. > :43:03.are making the economy move and we need them and they are very
:43:04. > :43:06.beneficial. The whole premise of their book is what if all of these
:43:07. > :43:10.people took their property and their assets and just went on strike,
:43:11. > :43:20.where would the rest of us be? It would be a dystopian state. But what
:43:21. > :43:23.would they do? In the book, they will go to a magic island, it is a
:43:24. > :43:28.bit of a science-fiction novel. It could be VI love white. It could
:43:29. > :43:35.have been. -- it could have been the Isle of Wight. If you are on the
:43:36. > :43:39.right, you look at Ayn Rand's critique of collectivism and Marxism
:43:40. > :43:43.and people on the right thing, she got that absolutely right but when
:43:44. > :43:48.she comes herself to say what kind of society we should have, it seems
:43:49. > :43:54.a bit extreme. Funnily enough, when Atlas Shrugged came out, it was
:43:55. > :43:59.hated on the left and the right. There were articles commissioned
:44:00. > :44:04.against the book, saying she was godless on the right and the left
:44:05. > :44:10.saying she was selfish. So there are extremities but I take it for what
:44:11. > :44:18.it is worth, extremities in objectivism. Extremities in
:44:19. > :44:23.objectivism? I think she was making, in the extreme positions,
:44:24. > :44:29.and ideology. I don't believe in her atheism, her position on abortion...
:44:30. > :44:34.Say she is not an icon of the social conservative right in America? No,
:44:35. > :44:39.she is the libertarian icon. When she was alive, she didn't have much
:44:40. > :44:44.time for libertarianism. Don't ask me why. But she wrote, "trade is the
:44:45. > :44:48.only proper basis of any relationship" . Adam Smith said
:44:49. > :44:54.roughly the same, that it is not from the munificence of the butcher
:44:55. > :44:59.or the bread-maker, he does it because he wants to make a profit,
:45:00. > :45:01.and you get it, but then she adds, including relationships with members
:45:02. > :45:08.of our families! Smith would never have said that. Probably not, but if
:45:09. > :45:12.you look again in Atlas Shrugged, Hank Reardon, his family was
:45:13. > :45:20.mooching off him, but I agree. There is a lot of Ayn Rand that were
:45:21. > :45:25.ironic streams and you take what was important. The important thing for
:45:26. > :45:31.me, as the Fountainhead explained, we have the power within us to
:45:32. > :45:33.accomplish anything. Her heroes were heroes and her villains were
:45:34. > :45:41.villains because they were socialists. How much was she
:45:42. > :45:46.influenced by the fact that her family's pharmacy business was
:45:47. > :45:51.confiscated by the Bolsheviks? Probably a lot. She hated anything
:45:52. > :45:55.to do with the communist state. The only thing she took with her, which
:45:56. > :46:00.again I find hard to understand, from the commonest estate, was her
:46:01. > :46:05.atheism. In a sense, you are almost in the mirror image position of Owen
:46:06. > :46:10.Jones, when we had him on the programme, as he came on, talking
:46:11. > :46:15.about Karl Marx, and of course he was not endorsing Marxism in its
:46:16. > :46:20.entirety, but he said there are things we can learn from him. And
:46:21. > :46:24.you have also taken a rather extreme ideology, the polar opposite to
:46:25. > :46:29.Marxism, and said, I do not buy it all, but there are bits of it... It
:46:30. > :46:33.is interesting you mentioned Owen Jones, because yes, we have gone
:46:34. > :46:41.from left to right. But the problem with Owen Jones legal theory is that
:46:42. > :46:49.it is unequivocally wrong. It does not work. Let me just explain why. A
:46:50. > :46:56.very good experiment happened when the Pilgrims first came to Plymouth.
:46:57. > :47:01.They practised collectivism when they first got there, and they
:47:02. > :47:03.starved after 2.5 years. They have this theory that everybody would
:47:04. > :47:10.take an equal portion. Nobody worked. Finally, after 2.5 years,
:47:11. > :47:15.the governor got rid of it, and said, this theory of the community
:47:16. > :47:20.does not work. And this is what Thatcher said. I understand that,
:47:21. > :47:25.but it comes back to the Rand criticism of collectors is, it is
:47:26. > :47:30.what she would have had in its place which I was asking you about, which
:47:31. > :47:37.seems to me to be just as weak in its way as Marxism out to be. --
:47:38. > :47:41.criticism of collectivism. Is it under your pillow every night?
:47:42. > :47:46.Everything I have learned about Ayn Rand I have found out from a
:47:47. > :47:53.computer game. It is a city built under the sea, which actually
:47:54. > :47:57.finally enough, quite a lot of Silicon Valley enthusiast 's want to
:47:58. > :48:02.actually build. But it is all the winners of society, going and making
:48:03. > :48:07.a society together. But the problem is, there is no family loyalty,
:48:08. > :48:13.there is no altruism, everybody is purely therefore themselves. The
:48:14. > :48:19.problem I have with Rand is the same problem I have with Marxism. They
:48:20. > :48:23.are extremes. From what I know of Rand, she is Margaret Thatcher on
:48:24. > :48:27.speed. She almost makes it cool to be selfish. One of the quotes today
:48:28. > :48:36.was, before you can say I love you, you have to think of I. Then she
:48:37. > :48:41.says, there are three key places in an argument, one is right, what is
:48:42. > :48:47.wrong, and the other is the middle. -- the other is evil. People having
:48:48. > :48:50.22 kids on welfare is selfish, but they rely on the generosity of
:48:51. > :48:57.others, which is somewhere in the middle. You can watch the rest of
:48:58. > :49:04.our series on political thinkers on our website. And thanks to Derek
:49:05. > :49:11.Wilkinson, who has just tweeted to me and given a very useful section
:49:12. > :49:17.on the Treaty of Rome, article three C, which calls for free movement for
:49:18. > :49:23.persons. Not workers, not job-seekers. So, if you are
:49:24. > :49:27.watching, Chuka Umunna, there you go. It is not unusual at this time
:49:28. > :49:32.of year to try to change direction in life, you might give up smoking,
:49:33. > :49:36.go to the gym, find a new job, or promise never to miss The Daily
:49:37. > :49:46.Politics for a year. One person has made it his New Year 's resolution
:49:47. > :49:48.to become more pro-business. The Socialist leader of France has
:49:49. > :49:55.hinted that he might cut labour costs in exchange for firms hiring
:49:56. > :49:59.more workers. Here he is. TRANSLATION: I propose a
:50:00. > :50:04.responsibility packed with business, it is based on a simple principle,
:50:05. > :50:07.lower labour charges and fewer restrictions on their activity, in
:50:08. > :50:12.return for more workers and more dialogue with trade unions. First of
:50:13. > :50:17.all, I want to reduce public spending. We have to make savings
:50:18. > :50:27.wherever possible. I am sure we can do more by spending less. We have to
:50:28. > :50:32.spend less to reduce our deficit, also to eventually lower taxes.
:50:33. > :50:36.That's fiscal reform, which we are committed to. I myself take on the
:50:37. > :50:46.responsible to four following this savings programme for the length of
:50:47. > :50:48.this Parliament. Now, I am joined by Axelle Lemaire, a member of the
:50:49. > :50:55.French parliament, representing northern Europe, and a member of
:50:56. > :51:01.Francois Hollande's socialist party, and a friend of The Daily Politics.
:51:02. > :51:05.We welcome you back. What is it like to be supporting the most unpopular
:51:06. > :51:09.president in the history of the fifth Republic? I suppose I keep
:51:10. > :51:14.thinking, well, if it is that bad, why don't we take risks? Which is
:51:15. > :51:22.what we are doing. It gives us, we have local elections coming, but we
:51:23. > :51:32.still have until 2017... You will be thumped in the local elections.
:51:33. > :51:38.Let's talk about that when it comes because I am not convinced. We are
:51:39. > :51:46.ahead in the mayoral elections, the departments, everywhere in France.
:51:47. > :51:53.You run all the departments. But even if things were going well, you
:51:54. > :51:58.would be losing some. Yes. But over the past 25 years, only Italy has
:51:59. > :52:01.grown slower than France. Your budget deficit is bigger than that
:52:02. > :52:06.of Italy, you have the largest current-account deficit in the
:52:07. > :52:10.Eurozone. Since 1999, GDP per head in Germany has grown 25% more than
:52:11. > :52:14.in France, your unit labour costs are now higher than Germany, and you
:52:15. > :52:22.are on the brink of another recession. Where is the good news?
:52:23. > :52:28.Wow! Like that, it does sound very, very bad. I am surprised you did not
:52:29. > :52:31.mention the United Kingdom, because that is what we are usually compared
:52:32. > :52:36.with, and that is what Mr Cameron compared his country with. But we
:52:37. > :52:45.are still the fifth biggest economy, number two in Europe, behind not the
:52:46. > :52:55.United Kingdom but Germany. We topped number one in the global 500
:52:56. > :53:00.index of innovative companies. We have a low inflation rate, we have
:53:01. > :53:11.reduced the public deficit, and currently we are at 3.8% of GDP in
:53:12. > :53:15.France. I think here it is 6.4%. It is easier for a country which can
:53:16. > :53:21.print its own currency, though. The levels of debt, public and private,
:53:22. > :53:28.because people do not take loans to buy cars, to buy a house. Are we
:53:29. > :53:31.going through what we saw with the last socialist president, President
:53:32. > :53:35.Mitterrand, who came in with a very socialist agenda, and within less
:53:36. > :53:40.than two years, the whole place had gone belly up, it was a disaster,
:53:41. > :53:45.and he rushed for the centre, so is that what M Hollande is now doing,
:53:46. > :53:50.when he is being nice to business and talking about cutting spending?
:53:51. > :53:56.Not at all. The number one priority in his programme, as a candidate,
:53:57. > :54:02.was competitiveness of companies. This is how it is seen abroad, that
:54:03. > :54:07.it is a U-turn, it is a pro-business U-turn, but he has always been
:54:08. > :54:12.pro-business. We passed a deal with companies in March last year, and I
:54:13. > :54:21.voted for it as an MP last year, to help them reduce labour costs for
:54:22. > :54:28.employees when times are hard, a bit like Germany did at the beginning of
:54:29. > :54:34.this century. We are doing many things. Do you think it really was a
:54:35. > :54:39.good way of encouraging foreign direct investment into France, of
:54:40. > :54:43.which France needs a lot, for the unions to kidnap the boss of good
:54:44. > :54:50.year? I do not think so, that gave us extremely bad publicity. That was
:54:51. > :54:54.a decision made by local union leaders, which was immediately
:54:55. > :54:59.condemned by the government, by the minister in charge of that case.
:55:00. > :55:04.They were soon released after that. But no, of course, it gave us bad
:55:05. > :55:08.publicity. But that does not reflect the reality. I understand, but you
:55:09. > :55:15.do not see this as a change of course? I see it as a continuation
:55:16. > :55:18.of what we have been trying to do to promote business and attract foreign
:55:19. > :55:26.investors, and it is working. We are doing clearly better. The level of
:55:27. > :55:28.unemployment is still high, but it has been continually decreasing
:55:29. > :55:43.since we got in power. Unemployment has gone up. Since we arrived in
:55:44. > :55:51.power, little by little, we are decreasing it. You are decreasing
:55:52. > :55:57.the rate of increase. But will it help M Hollande's popularity that he
:55:58. > :56:01.now seems to have indulged in the time-honoured French President's
:56:02. > :56:07.tradition of having a mistress? This sounds very French, doesn't it?
:56:08. > :56:14.Except that this time we know, Mitterrand managed to hide them
:56:15. > :56:20.away. It is difficult to do that with Twitter! We also have a
:56:21. > :56:28.different tradition, which is, we want to respect privacy. I notice
:56:29. > :56:36.that his criticism was not that it is not true, it was, you have
:56:37. > :56:42.invaded my privacy. I remember when Palmerston, at the age of 60 odd,
:56:43. > :56:48.did it in this country, the Tories wanted to cover it up because it
:56:49. > :56:57.would make him more popular. Thanks for joining us. Next, the most
:56:58. > :57:02.efficient round-up of the week's news, in only 62 seconds. Much of
:57:03. > :57:08.southern Britain was underwater, as there was yet more heavy range
:57:09. > :57:13.effort but the Tory MP Penny Morden will be getting even wetter. She is
:57:14. > :57:17.going to star in a TV diving show. Boris Johnson made a splash on the
:57:18. > :57:24.airwaves again, this time knocking Nick Clegg. He has that very
:57:25. > :57:30.important ceremonial function as David Cameron's lapdog come
:57:31. > :57:36.protection device. There was less knock-about in the Commons, as PMQs
:57:37. > :57:40.went all proper, following Ed Miliband's concerns that it was
:57:41. > :57:45.getting too rowdy. One Labour MP called for an end to slogans like
:57:46. > :57:50.these. I would say the big society is an enormous opportunity.
:57:51. > :57:55.Christmas is a distant memory, but some reckon Scrooge is still hanging
:57:56. > :57:59.around, as the Chancellor announced another ?25 billion of cuts, much of
:58:00. > :58:05.it in welfare. 2014 is the year of hard truths.
:58:06. > :58:11.The year of hard truths, who writes that stuff?! Give me a thought, what
:58:12. > :58:16.is going to happen this year that will surprise us? I hope that there
:58:17. > :58:21.will be a lot about young people. We heard about housing benefit getting
:58:22. > :58:25.taken away from the under-25s. I do not see if you are under 30 watts
:58:26. > :58:29.any of the big parties can offer you. The older people tend to own
:58:30. > :58:36.their houses. That is one thing I would like to see more of. For you?
:58:37. > :58:41.Scottish referendum, that is going to be big. European elections in
:58:42. > :58:45.May. But I think the overarching thing will be the decoupling of the
:58:46. > :58:50.coalition. Interesting, you heard it here first! That is it for today. I
:58:51. > :58:53.will be back with The Sunday Politics on BBC One, on Sunday, at
:58:54. > :58:58.11 o'clock. Until then, have a good weekend.