:00:38. > :00:42.Afternoon folk, welcome to the Daily Politics. Floodwaters continue to
:00:43. > :00:46.rise and so does the anger of people, as houses and fields have
:00:47. > :00:51.been under water now for weeks. Are they paying the price for
:00:52. > :00:55.Government and agencies too slow to act?
:00:56. > :00:58.To clear your -- declare your love for Scotland the Prime Minister
:00:59. > :01:01.tells the tens of millions of Brits without a vote in September's
:01:02. > :01:05.Independence Referendum. Do the people of England, Wales and
:01:06. > :01:10.Northern Ireland share the Prime Minister's passion?
:01:11. > :01:15.A senior US diplomat in Ukraine apologises following an apparent
:01:16. > :01:21.four letter outburst about the European Union. Just undiplomatic
:01:22. > :01:27.language or signs of a deeper rift? And to infinity and beyond. Are the
:01:28. > :01:35.billions ploughed into the European Space Agency money well spent?
:01:36. > :01:41.So all that in the next hour, with us for the next half hour and firmly
:01:42. > :01:51.on planet earth is the journalist and broadcaster Anne McElvoy, fresh
:01:52. > :01:56.from her skiing last night. I am happy to be in a warm studio. Your
:01:57. > :02:00.legs are intact? Just about. We sent her to hemle help stead, we couldn't
:02:01. > :02:04.afford Sochi. The National Union of Teachers have announced a one day
:02:05. > :02:10.strike in England and Wales over pay and conditions. It will be held on
:02:11. > :02:15.the 26th mar. The other big teacher union the NASUWT is considering
:02:16. > :02:19.whether to support the action. We are joined by the General Secretary
:02:20. > :02:23.of the NUT Christine Blower. Welcome to the programme. Good afternoon.
:02:24. > :02:26.You have been in talks with Michael Gove to try and avoid this strike
:02:27. > :02:31.but it is a three year running dispute, is that right? We haven't
:02:32. > :02:36.been in talks with Michael gov Gove, we had a meeting with imon October,
:02:37. > :02:40.with civil servants or October 14th when we were offered Taub, since
:02:41. > :02:44.then there have been no meetings and no talks. We would very much like
:02:45. > :02:48.there to be talks, in order to resolve this dispute, because
:02:49. > :02:51.clearly it has been going on much too long, and obviously things are
:02:52. > :02:56.not good for teacher, so we would like to be involved in the talks at
:02:57. > :03:01.the moment there maybe the offer only so talks for the unions but as
:03:02. > :03:06.Francis O'Grady said, you, you resolve a dispute with the parties
:03:07. > :03:11.to the dispute, so we need talks with Michael Gove, with ourselves
:03:12. > :03:16.and the NASUWT. At the moment they are not on offer. It is about
:03:17. > :03:19.performance-related pay. Am I not right in thinking that is a mer of
:03:20. > :03:25.principle, you are against that? It is not all about that, it is about
:03:26. > :03:29.workload and pension, the fact is many aspects of teacher's pay are
:03:30. > :03:34.performance-related, but we are opposed to the linking of the new
:03:35. > :03:39.appraisal scheme with the fact national pay arrangements have been
:03:40. > :03:44.demolished. The fact 74% of teachers say morale has declined suggest they
:03:45. > :03:47.are not happy either. So it is important that Michael Gove gets
:03:48. > :03:53.round the table with ourself, and talks with us to resolve these
:03:54. > :03:56.disputes. Are you in a position to negotiate over performance-related
:03:57. > :03:59.pay? We are in a position to negotiation over what pay should
:04:00. > :04:03.look like, as I say to you, the fact that teachers already have to pass
:04:04. > :04:07.an induction year, in order to stay in the profession, so there is an
:04:08. > :04:11.element of performance in there. What we cannot have is teachers' pay
:04:12. > :04:16.linked to individual student performance, and the reason reason
:04:17. > :04:19.we can't have that is there is no interhagsal evidence suggesting that
:04:20. > :04:24.improves things for individual students. So there is no point in
:04:25. > :04:28.having that -- international. What does the Education Secretary have to
:04:29. > :04:31.do get you to call off the strike, at least temporarily? Well, of
:04:32. > :04:35.course we have already called off strike action. When we went into the
:04:36. > :04:41.initial phase of talks on October 14 th with civil servant, we didn't go
:04:42. > :04:46.on strike, on November 27th. We thought talks were forthcoming. What
:04:47. > :04:50.the Secretary of State has to do is engage in serious talks with us
:04:51. > :04:56.about pay, pensions and conditions of service, but also, he has to not
:04:57. > :05:00.make any damaging changes to teachers' conditions in the
:05:01. > :05:03.forthcoming STRV report. We are prepared to stand down strike
:05:04. > :05:07.action, but I think the Secretary of State needs to know that teachers'
:05:08. > :05:13.morale is poor at the moment and they need to see quite a lot of
:05:14. > :05:18.changes. If Mr Gove was here, is this, this strike, what he would
:05:19. > :05:21.call the behaviour of the blob? I don't know what he would, there are
:05:22. > :05:25.a lot of people included in the blob. Are you in the blob? I think
:05:26. > :05:29.you are. Sometimes I am, sometimes I am not. I am actually very pleased
:05:30. > :05:34.to be associated with a lot of people who are in the blob, but I
:05:35. > :05:38.have to say, it is not the case that in other jurisdictions that
:05:39. > :05:42.Education Ministers go round insulting people who are really
:05:43. > :05:47.engaged and enthusiastic about education. Professors of education,
:05:48. > :05:52.leaders of teachers' unions and so on. Thank you, we will keep an eye
:05:53. > :05:58.and see what happens. Now we did obviously have to speak
:05:59. > :06:02.to an Education Minister but none was available. They probably got
:06:03. > :06:07.lost in the blob. I suspect that Mr Gove, I mean, he thinks, he clearly
:06:08. > :06:13.thinks the NUT is part of the problem, not the solution. And isn't
:06:14. > :06:17.that interesting -- interested in negotiating. He thinks they are tout
:06:18. > :06:22.stop everything he wants to do, as they attempted to stop much of what
:06:23. > :06:27.Mr Blair wants to be He think think are the enemy. Also he think, this
:06:28. > :06:32.is a difficult question, he doesn't think they really, intend to prevail
:06:33. > :06:37.any way, they throw up strikes which are hugely inconvenient for parents,
:06:38. > :06:41.they disrupt children's education but they tend not to get what they
:06:42. > :06:46.want. I think he thinks they won't this time. All this talk about pay
:06:47. > :06:50.and performance pay, British teacher, teachers in England because
:06:51. > :06:54.we are in different situations in Scotland and Wales, they are pretty
:06:55. > :06:58.well paid, and they have got better paid, rightly, in my view, I should
:06:59. > :07:05.say, in the last ten years, and if you look at the OECD, you break down
:07:06. > :07:10.the amount of pay for time spent actually teaching in the classroom,
:07:11. > :07:14.Britain, England I keep saying Britain, I am into the next debate
:07:15. > :07:18.about Scotland already, England scores well, comes in about fourth
:07:19. > :07:23.place in the international league tables so it is not as if there is a
:07:24. > :07:26.major pay problem, one understands while unions will try to get the
:07:27. > :07:29.best deal for their member, but if they link it to resisting bigger
:07:30. > :07:31.changes to reforms they won't have a lot of purchase on the Secretary of
:07:32. > :07:37.State. Let us see what happens. Now on the
:07:38. > :07:40.eve of the Winter Olympics in Sochi, the opening ceremony is tonight,
:07:41. > :07:44.David Cameron has been at the Olympic Park in London, the scene of
:07:45. > :07:48.our wonderful opening Olympics in the summer of 2012. He was making a
:07:49. > :07:52.speech designed to encourage those on these islands who are not
:07:53. > :07:57.Scottish to let the Scots know they don't want a divorce. The haven't
:07:58. > :08:00.use chosen because at the Olympics we all compete as Brits and the
:08:01. > :08:05.Prime Minister has been invoking the spirit of Team GB to argue the case
:08:06. > :08:10.for the union. This is what he has had to say.
:08:11. > :08:17.This is our country, and we built it together. Brick by brick. Scotland,
:08:18. > :08:22.England, Wales, Northern Ireland. Brick by brick. This is our home,
:08:23. > :08:26.and I could not bear to see it torn apart.
:08:27. > :08:30.I love this country. I love the United Kingdom, and all it stands
:08:31. > :08:34.for. And I will fight with everything I have to keep us
:08:35. > :08:40.together. Passionate defence of the union from
:08:41. > :08:43.the Prime Minister. No sooner had he finished than Alex Salmond gave his
:08:44. > :08:48.response. This is it. The main thing is this a speech delivered from
:08:49. > :08:52.London, telling people in England what to do, but arguing against
:08:53. > :08:55.Scottish independence, instead of a debate that the Prime Minister must
:08:56. > :09:00.do in Scotland, a debate with me, as First Minister of Scotland about the
:09:01. > :09:06.pros an cons of his argument against independence. Well, that was the
:09:07. > :09:11.First Minister saying things. We are joined by Rory Stewart. The Prime
:09:12. > :09:14.Minister has been criticise for not delivering this speech in Scotland,
:09:15. > :09:18.but this was a speech to the non-Scot, so I understand why he did
:09:19. > :09:22.this in England. But at some sage he has to go to Scotland. At some
:09:23. > :09:26.stage, she the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he has to get
:09:27. > :09:29.involved, if he wants to defend the union, he has to go there, and
:09:30. > :09:33.defend it. Yes, the Prime Minister I think will be going to Scotland but
:09:34. > :09:37.the main thing is the grass roots emotion of this whole thing. It is
:09:38. > :09:40.about showing that the English, the Welsh, the Irish are committed to
:09:41. > :09:45.Scotland, love Scotland, care about Scotland. Do they? What is the
:09:46. > :09:49.evidence? I am hoping to gather thousands of people linking arms
:09:50. > :09:54.along the forkeder. I would like a chain of lights and I would like do
:09:55. > :09:58.you join us. Show affection for the union. We cover political
:09:59. > :10:05.demonstrations. In what way in your view would the rest of the UK be
:10:06. > :10:10.diminished if Scotland left? In almost every way, to lose a third of
:10:11. > :10:14.your country. To loose Edinburgh, the Highlands, hundreds of years of
:10:15. > :10:18.shared history will make us embarrassed in the face of the
:10:19. > :10:24.world. You don't think it matters or you think the rest of the UK might
:10:25. > :10:28.be better off if Scotland left? I am sure if the appeal is to economics
:10:29. > :10:32.than motion, and it seems the Prime Minister was appealing to emotion,
:10:33. > :10:36.Rory is talking about our sense of history, if you are a boring
:10:37. > :10:40.economist like me and you want to crunch the number, I am certain it
:10:41. > :10:45.would be in England's very narrow self-interest. Where is the evidence
:10:46. > :10:49.for that? If you look at transfers from the relatively more affluent
:10:50. > :10:53.English to the poorer Scot, the high levels of public spending, the
:10:54. > :10:58.Barnett Formula, it is clouded by oil, and the price of oil going up
:10:59. > :11:03.and down. It is not slightly clouded by oil revenue, it is almost exactly
:11:04. > :11:08.matched by oil revenues. Yes, but the question is when do you measure
:11:09. > :11:15.the oil revenues? The oil price goes up so much. Take oil at $100s a
:11:16. > :11:19.barrel which is lower than now. You have to decide how much belongs to
:11:20. > :11:24.the Scots. Under international law that is clear. It is about 90%. If
:11:25. > :11:27.you look at the size of the public sector in England and certainly in
:11:28. > :11:30.London and the south, comparing to that in Scotland, it is
:11:31. > :11:39.substantially smaller in England, if you look at the... The public sector
:11:40. > :11:42.in Scotland is no bigger than in the north-west or the North East It is
:11:43. > :11:48.away beyond London and the south-east, so I think the English
:11:49. > :11:51.would be Bert off. I am not sure narrow self-interest should be the
:11:52. > :11:55.ace of trumps. Scotland could be better off. Being less depeb dent on
:11:56. > :12:01.England than it is at the moment. More in control of their... What do
:12:02. > :12:05.you say to that? In the end everything comes down to identity
:12:06. > :12:10.and confidence. More serious economists than I could be, my sense
:12:11. > :12:15.is it very difficult over 100, 200 years to think about what nation go,
:12:16. > :12:20.a lot is to do with confidence, your commitment to your country. The US
:12:21. > :12:28.doesn't sit round thinking we would be richer if we lost Texas or if a
:12:29. > :12:31.few years. Or Alabama I think there is a divergence in political
:12:32. > :12:35.culture, south and north of the border. I was looking at the figures
:12:36. > :12:41.today, without Scotland the Labour Party would not have one a UK
:12:42. > :12:46.general election between 1950 and 1997. They would not have won, they
:12:47. > :12:52.would have won in 1997. That is not true. Your figures are wrong. Labour
:12:53. > :12:56.won England in 199 -- 1966. I don't think they would have formed a
:12:57. > :13:02.majority. They would have done. In 1966 they won England. We would have
:13:03. > :13:08.had a Conservative majority Government, the majority of about 19
:13:09. > :13:13.or so. How many Tory MPs are there in Scotland? One. It used to be
:13:14. > :13:20.half. Things can change. What you have seen is a divergence. Scotland
:13:21. > :13:25.wants a centre-left approach, and England generally leans to a centre
:13:26. > :13:29.right approach. If you have divery gent view, perhaps splitting... We
:13:30. > :13:33.have to let Rory in. One of the great channels is to get out of
:13:34. > :13:36.conversation between politicians and with respect economist, it is
:13:37. > :13:40.interest you said people linking arms along the border would be a
:13:41. > :13:43.political statement, I think it is not really politics, this is the
:13:44. > :13:47.whole identity of your nation. One of the things that is making me very
:13:48. > :13:51.tructed at the moment, is -- troubled at the moment, is the sense
:13:52. > :13:56.no up ins in Britain are prepared to come fourth the UK, in the US if
:13:57. > :14:01.Texas wanted to separate I would imagine you would get ten million
:14:02. > :14:05.people joining arms to hold the country together. I think there is
:14:06. > :14:10.other than the Sunday herald, which has a small circulation there is not
:14:11. > :14:15.a single paper coming out for independence in Scotland. They are
:14:16. > :14:18.remaining neutral. Even come to a general election, the editorial
:14:19. > :14:22.endorsement don't come until a couple of days before. This is the
:14:23. > :14:27.whole future of the United Kingdom. It is very strange that, and this is
:14:28. > :14:31.clever the Scottish Nationalists have done, made it seen as if it's a
:14:32. > :14:36.party political issue. It is the whole of the United Kingdom. The
:14:37. > :14:40.most important constitutional question for 400 years. It is
:14:41. > :14:44.certainly true that it is more likely to get a Labour Government if
:14:45. > :14:47.Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom, I mean there wouldn't have
:14:48. > :14:52.been a Labour Government in 64, there would in 66. There probably
:14:53. > :14:57.wouldn't have been a majority Labour Government in 2005, either. That bit
:14:58. > :15:01.is true, as well. But you know, if you are a Republican sitting in
:15:02. > :15:07.Washington, you would say without California and without New York, and
:15:08. > :15:10.without new England and without Massachusetts we would have a
:15:11. > :15:20.permanent Republican majority, but no American is going to say that.
:15:21. > :15:27.The USA is much more dotted around. Some states will always vote
:15:28. > :15:30.Democrat. Maybe London and the south-east should go independent. It
:15:31. > :15:40.would be the Richard Prince in Europe! -- richest province. They
:15:41. > :15:45.could be a rather different build-up. The distinction between
:15:46. > :15:53.two different nations, two different nations, is that stark. It used to
:15:54. > :15:57.be, certainly foremost the 20th century, the political culture of
:15:58. > :16:06.Scotland and England were a light it. They were similar. In 1955, the
:16:07. > :16:11.Tories got a majority of the vote in Scotland. It was only 50.1%, but it
:16:12. > :16:15.was a majority. It is clear they have been going in separate
:16:16. > :16:19.directions in recent decades. Absolutely. That is true, of
:16:20. > :16:24.course, of parts of northern England and parts of other cities. We have
:16:25. > :16:28.got to accept there are different national cultures. We are not
:16:29. > :16:33.denying that. It is what makes the UK great. We have diversity. It also
:16:34. > :16:37.would be mistake if people fantasised that Scotland leaving
:16:38. > :16:42.would lead to a 1-party government. People hate 1-party governments.
:16:43. > :16:48.That would last for a few years. He is just saying it would be less
:16:49. > :16:51.likely, a Labour government. The you should not support the constitution
:16:52. > :16:56.of your country to favour one party or another. My observation would be
:16:57. > :17:01.that typically the English, over recent decades, are voting towards
:17:02. > :17:06.the centre right. Typically, the Scots are voting to the centre-left.
:17:07. > :17:10.That can cause tensions if one of them enormously outweighs the other.
:17:11. > :17:13.When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, you got a lot of animist
:17:14. > :17:19.in Scotland. The potentially build-up English animus if the
:17:20. > :17:31.English Labour Party in winning elections. To somebody with her
:17:32. > :17:39.Scottish name. I am a Borders girl! Do you think it matters to how
:17:40. > :17:46.Scotland will vote if, if as Mr Cameron says, the English say, don't
:17:47. > :17:52.go. It depends if you can put that across. It is a sense that this
:17:53. > :18:00.really is something we all feel something together about, other than
:18:01. > :18:04.nationalists. I noticed the Prime Minister's tone, which was almost a
:18:05. > :18:11.Hugh Grant moment, this is a real sign of worry in number ten that
:18:12. > :18:15.there is desiccated discussion, led by Alistair Darling, on fiscal pros
:18:16. > :18:19.and cons, is not going home and doing the job. He has got the
:18:20. > :18:24.difficult task. You can get up and say, as a Southerner and a
:18:25. > :18:28.Conservative, please, don't go. People might say, why should I
:18:29. > :18:32.listen to you? If you want to hold the UK together, you have to do
:18:33. > :18:41.that. I am sceptical about linking arms. That is my idea of hell. The
:18:42. > :18:48.borders are beautiful place! Yes, but we barely linked arms with our
:18:49. > :18:54.own families. The idea is right, if not the device. The majority of the
:18:55. > :19:02.rest of the UK once Scotland to stay. That figure gets higher in the
:19:03. > :19:10.North of England. Absolutely. I am on the border. We would be
:19:11. > :19:14.heartbroken. These are family, not just neighbours. We would like them
:19:15. > :19:24.to remain that. We want to show that we think that by linking arms on the
:19:25. > :19:28.19th of July. Fair enough. It was one of those moments when
:19:29. > :19:32.politics was briefly put on hold: the death of the popular Labour MP
:19:33. > :19:34.Paul Goggins at the start of the year. But normal service has been
:19:35. > :19:37.resumed now that there's a by-election underway in his seat of
:19:38. > :19:41.Wythenshawe and Sale East. Adam's been to the enormous housing estate
:19:42. > :19:51.in the South of Manchester to see what's going on.
:19:52. > :19:55.What is within sure famous for? At one point it was the largest housing
:19:56. > :19:59.estate in the whole of Europe. At another, part of it was declared the
:20:00. > :20:04.most deprived council ward in the whole of England and Wales. At yet
:20:05. > :20:07.another, it is a place where pre-prime minister real David
:20:08. > :20:13.Cameron had a photo opportunity ruined by a guy doing this.
:20:14. > :20:18.Yes, that's the one. Now for this by-election the media has descended
:20:19. > :20:23.again from all over the place. Is Britain going to get out of the
:20:24. > :20:33.European Union? Any indication that UKIP can do in a Labour area would
:20:34. > :20:38.be very interesting. What are your first impressions of Wythenshawe? It
:20:39. > :20:46.is a beautiful place. Here is the source of the excitement, the UKIP
:20:47. > :20:50.candidate is a local businessman. Last time, the party were beaten
:20:51. > :20:55.into forth by the BNP. Now they are aiming much, much higher. Talk me
:20:56. > :21:01.through the leaflet. We want to point out to voters that the Labour
:21:02. > :21:04.front bench is made up of people who are paper millionaires or actual
:21:05. > :21:08.millionaires. Most of them have never had a real job. They went to
:21:09. > :21:11.use a real job. They went to use it -- University, got a job in the
:21:12. > :21:14.research department of the party, got parachuted into a safe seat and
:21:15. > :21:20.now they are on the front bench trying to claim they represent the
:21:21. > :21:26.working class. Labour's candidate stresses his local roots, too.
:21:27. > :21:33.Manchester City's season ticket is proof. They rest in -- reckon UKIP
:21:34. > :21:38.aren't in the same league. We are talking about the A crisis at the
:21:39. > :21:45.hospital. We are talking about the cost of living. We are talking about
:21:46. > :21:53.the unfair council tax -- cuts. Cuts are on the minds of the month at the
:21:54. > :21:57.toddler group. I'm a local mum. I value these services. I stood there
:21:58. > :22:05.and I protest it and I'm a speech after speech at the council in
:22:06. > :22:13.Manchester against Labour's cuts. Here, the Tory candidate is focusing
:22:14. > :22:18.on dog mess and potholes. Your party is in turn down the street and you
:22:19. > :22:21.are talking about these things. I believe if you get the small things
:22:22. > :22:25.right, you can get the big things right. There is a national
:22:26. > :22:29.responsibility as an MP. But I want to be a local champion. I want to
:22:30. > :22:34.represent them on the issues they are talking to me about. If I am
:22:35. > :22:38.honest, the streets of Wythenshawe are not in the grip of by-election
:22:39. > :22:42.fever, but the result will tell us whether UKIP can take votes from
:22:43. > :22:46.Labour. Until now, they have mainly been holding a gun to the heads of
:22:47. > :22:50.the Tories. Sorry, couldn't resist seeing the picture one wartime.
:22:51. > :22:54.Add us to indulge himself. And a full list of candidates
:22:55. > :22:55.standing in the Wythenshaw Sale East by-election is on your screen
:22:56. > :23:13.now. For analysts, the only thing of
:23:14. > :23:18.interest is who comes second. We'll UKIP beat the Tories into second
:23:19. > :23:21.place? Indeed. It is not just a question of whether they edge one
:23:22. > :23:27.way or another, although that is important. Also commit to the manner
:23:28. > :23:34.in which they do so. Does it look like this is part of an unstoppable
:23:35. > :23:39.UKIP march the type that... And I would say, some Labour politicians
:23:40. > :23:45.have woken up to the fact that UKIP is eating into their territory, too.
:23:46. > :23:50.It doesn't look like being a problem for the Labour successor in
:23:51. > :23:55.Wythenshawe. But it could impact on the next general election. But it
:23:56. > :24:00.could be we have got too excited. The UKIP bubble could burst and we
:24:01. > :24:09.will see them doing OK but it will not be the next big thing. We shall
:24:10. > :24:12.see. Let's turn to the flooding because,
:24:13. > :24:15.with more heavy rain overnight, the flood waters have continued to rise.
:24:16. > :24:18.Let's get the latest now from Chris Eakin, who's in the Village of
:24:19. > :24:24.Burrowbridge on the Somerset Levels. What is happening there?
:24:25. > :24:31.Hello. This is one of the approach roads to the village, which is again
:24:32. > :24:35.flooded by water. It has become a veritable island. It was one that
:24:36. > :24:38.was put on for several days, one which became almost the heart of the
:24:39. > :24:44.political battle as to whether enough was being doing -- done on
:24:45. > :24:47.the Somerset Levels. A phenomenal 24/7 operation to build temporary
:24:48. > :24:53.barriers around the village, but some of those were breached in the
:24:54. > :24:58.night. It has cut off all but larger vehicles. Overall, the Somerset
:24:59. > :25:01.Levels are struggling very hard to contain the flood water. Don't be
:25:02. > :25:06.fooled by the respite in the weather. It takes about ten hours
:25:07. > :25:13.from when it rains for the rivers. A very worrying weekend ahead.
:25:14. > :25:17.Chris, we only see the pictures. It never seems to get better for the
:25:18. > :25:21.people there. In all of these flooded areas and we see houses
:25:22. > :25:24.either flooded or surrounded by water, have the people being
:25:25. > :25:30.evacuated? Or are they still having to stay in situ? They are living
:25:31. > :25:37.through this, living, essentially, in the middle of a lake. It is not
:25:38. > :25:44.everybody. Until yesterday, the Environment Agency were saying that
:25:45. > :25:47.around 40 properties had actually been flooded. So, a relatively small
:25:48. > :25:54.number given the many miles of flooding. One of the problems is the
:25:55. > :25:58.threat to people. If you take the village I was talking about, you are
:25:59. > :26:03.right, because two days ago, the police helicopter was up in the air
:26:04. > :26:07.like something from a Hollywood movie, instructing people to leave.
:26:08. > :26:14.Around half of the village, about 300 people, decided to stay. In the
:26:15. > :26:19.early hours of this morning, they went out in a dramatic fashion. Now
:26:20. > :26:23.we estimate about 20 or 30 remain there. It is not just the fact you
:26:24. > :26:26.are flooded. It is the stress of watching the water just get closer
:26:27. > :26:31.and closer to your property and the temporary barriers trying to hold
:26:32. > :26:35.back the force of nature and then eventually succumbing. We have
:26:36. > :26:39.spoken to a lot of people the tree into yesterday, and not just house
:26:40. > :26:43.owners but farmers, too. Over my left shoulder, a farmer was close to
:26:44. > :26:50.tears, saying he would have to give it all up. Do people feel abandoned
:26:51. > :26:54.by central government, by the powers that be down there? You have used
:26:55. > :27:01.the exact words. A lot of people say they feel forgotten. At the moment,
:27:02. > :27:08.we have got Chris Smith, Lord Smith, the Minister and Labour government
:27:09. > :27:13.chair of the Environment Agency. He is at a wetland Centre a few miles
:27:14. > :27:17.away. It is a very controlled environment, this meeting. The can
:27:18. > :27:22.understand why. There is a huge amount of anger in the Somerset
:27:23. > :27:26.Levels. If we have got time, I can show you why. Here are two rivers
:27:27. > :27:30.that keep coming up in the House of Commons. This is the River Tone full
:27:31. > :27:38.stop behind this grass corner is the River parrot. We are at the
:27:39. > :27:44.confluence. The argument is... If you look behind me you can see the
:27:45. > :27:47.flood plain isn't -- is lower than the river. The Environment Agency is
:27:48. > :27:53.not dredging enough, that is the argument. They have at the limit
:27:54. > :27:57.since the mid-90s. You will struggle to find a single person on the
:27:58. > :28:00.Somerset Levels who agrees with that policy. They all say dredging should
:28:01. > :28:13.be carried out. Chris, thank you very much with that. At the end
:28:14. > :28:18.there, he explained what has been the difference between the experts
:28:19. > :28:26.in London and the people who are also expert on the ground. Because
:28:27. > :28:28.this is below the flood plain, it was originally dredged by Dutch
:28:29. > :28:34.engineers all these years ago. They think, as they do in Holland, it has
:28:35. > :28:38.to be costly dredged. But the Environment Agency and others in
:28:39. > :28:45.London say no, no, we are not going to do that. That is the problem. It
:28:46. > :28:49.was interesting to see that Mr Cameron will take all possible steps
:28:50. > :28:53.and nothing should be ruled out. Frankly, I think he would love a
:28:54. > :28:57.reversal of policy by the Environment Agency. Whether that is
:28:58. > :29:00.forthcoming, we don't know. If people really feel they are at the
:29:01. > :29:08.sharp end... It is becoming a national trauma. Mr Cameron doesn't
:29:09. > :29:16.look like he was on it. Tony Lee, he was late. There is sent he is
:29:17. > :29:19.playing catch up. I don't think Christmas will be the most popular
:29:20. > :29:23.man in that part of the world. If you have one of these agencies, it
:29:24. > :29:27.is unlikely you are the only person who has pushed it through. But you
:29:28. > :29:31.are right to put your finger on this point about dredging. In the end,
:29:32. > :29:35.this is something government is going to have to take a view on.
:29:36. > :29:47.Simply saying, well, it is a funny quango who put it in somebody's
:29:48. > :29:51.hands, that won't do. Now, if you're a Liberal Democrat
:29:52. > :30:18.supporter, you're probably a fan of TV shows like this.
:30:19. > :30:26.That was Red Dwarf, how we do know that Liberal Democrats like sci-fi?
:30:27. > :30:31.Well YouGov have done the research, and Freddie Sayers who is part of
:30:32. > :30:35.the YouGov, he joins us now. So there are distinct programmes that
:30:36. > :30:42.Tory, Labour and Liberal Democrats like? There are. We did analysis
:30:43. > :30:45.involving over 70,000 people, comparing their favourite TV
:30:46. > :30:51.programmes with their political affiliation. Let us put the Tory
:30:52. > :30:58.list up. The results, what a surprise Downton Abbey. They are on
:30:59. > :31:04.stereotype there. Spook, that is modern. Hawaii 5-0. Why should
:31:05. > :31:09.Tories like that? That is a good yes. What does that tell us, if you
:31:10. > :31:12.were a Tory strategist, what is the lesson from that? As we will see
:31:13. > :31:18.from the Labour list, the two main parties came up pretty much on
:31:19. > :31:24.stereotype there. I mean... Coronation Street. For Labour.
:31:25. > :31:29.Coronation Street and Peter Kay's Phoenix Nights.
:31:30. > :31:38.Mad men, that is very interesting as a Labour top ten: They have been
:31:39. > :31:44.full of it for years. Frazier. It is more unVarnished vision of Britain:
:31:45. > :31:50.It is kind of slightly more Britain 21st century. There is something
:31:51. > :31:57.kind of acceptia tinted about the Tory top ten list. -- sepia. There
:31:58. > :32:01.we go. This is striking, the others were pretty much as you would
:32:02. > :32:05.expect. But it is hard sometimes to know what a stereo typical Liberal
:32:06. > :32:09.Democrat looks like. It is all over the place. Looking at the top one
:32:10. > :32:17.hundred, there are two strong themes that come through, the first is this
:32:18. > :32:23.bizarre connection to sci-fi. Or perhaps not! Fully 17 of the top 100
:32:24. > :32:26.Liberal Democrat programmes are in some way sci-fi or future risty
:32:27. > :32:34.while only two for the kith, so there is a sense of a kind of
:32:35. > :32:38.alternative future, other worldly. They have got Have I Got News For
:32:39. > :32:43.You. That shows they have a bit of a sense of humour. That is the second
:32:44. > :32:50.important thing about that. They like futurarama. A cartoon. We count
:32:51. > :32:54.that as sci-fi. What do you make of it? It is fascinating. I love the
:32:55. > :33:00.Liberal Democrats are other worldly creatures from the planet X. They
:33:01. > :33:03.have a sense of humour. Mock The Week, The IT Crowd. I wouldn't mind
:33:04. > :33:07.staying in with the Liberal Democrat selection. The Tory one is very
:33:08. > :33:13.backward looking, nothing wrong with a nice night in with Downton and a
:33:14. > :33:17.large glass of something, but it is didn't things to be marvellous, when
:33:18. > :33:22.Duchesses were Duchesses, Labour, the interesting thing you said, they
:33:23. > :33:29.are picking apart at the early 21st century, trying to make sense of it.
:33:30. > :33:34.And for reassurance they want to watch Coronation Street, and... To
:33:35. > :33:39.show their roots. I think that is interesting. There is something
:33:40. > :33:44.about all three parties that is nicely categorised in this. The
:33:45. > :33:48.response we got. We published it a few days ago, the response from
:33:49. > :33:52.Liberal Democrats has not been you are taking the mickey, there has
:33:53. > :33:55.been a enthusiasm, saying yes we do like sci-fi, we are Liberal
:33:56. > :34:01.Democrat, it is a a real better different future we want to believe
:34:02. > :34:05.in, an alternative. Here is the question. Where did the Daily
:34:06. > :34:11.Politics appear? It is not identified with any of the three
:34:12. > :34:17.parties. Don't you think that is a triumph? We would not want to be on
:34:18. > :34:23.any party list. Your recredentials have held up. It will be interesting
:34:24. > :34:28.to see if the party managers get any campaigning line-out of that. That
:34:29. > :34:33.is a fascinating poll. Now, it has just gone 12.30. Coming up our
:34:34. > :34:37.regular look at what is going on in European politics, time to say
:34:38. > :34:42.goodbye to Anne McElvoy. So, for the next half hour, we are
:34:43. > :34:45.going to be focussing on Europe, we will be discussing EU relations with
:34:46. > :34:50.the US UK, whether the eurozone crisis is over, and the role of the
:34:51. > :34:59.European Space Agency. First, here is our guide to the latest from
:35:00. > :35:04.Europe, in just 60 seconds. Italy's President was given a hard
:35:05. > :35:11.time in the European Parliament in Strasbourg by Italian MEPs. Members
:35:12. > :35:19.of the Northern League said where to stick the euro. Handbags of a
:35:20. > :35:25.different sort. In addition to carry on luggage innow includes, a coat,
:35:26. > :35:29.duty free and a handbag. Italy joined Britain in having some truly
:35:30. > :35:36.dreadful weather. The river burst its banks causing
:35:37. > :35:39.flooding in floor rans. Gasps as the Home Affairs commissioner described
:35:40. > :35:45.European Union corruption as breathtaking. She put it at more
:35:46. > :35:49.than 120 billion euros, or the size of the EU's entire annual budget,
:35:50. > :35:54.and as attention turns to the Winter Olympics in Sochi, MEPs have been
:35:55. > :35:57.having a gay old time debating relations with Russia, they want
:35:58. > :36:08.Vladimir Putin to chill out and leave the Ukraine alone.
:36:09. > :36:12.And with us for the next 30 minutes are var are Ludford and David
:36:13. > :36:18.Martin. Let us start by talking about the flooding, because you have
:36:19. > :36:22.for want the European Union to get involved with funds to help, tell me
:36:23. > :36:31.what would you would like them to do There is an EU Solidarity Fund. We
:36:32. > :36:36.have called op the UK Government to make an application for these funds,
:36:37. > :36:42.because you know, what is not to like about getting some EU support
:36:43. > :36:50.for our hard-pressed citizens and taxpayers? I am told that the, you
:36:51. > :36:54.can only get help from this fund if the direct costs exceed three
:36:55. > :36:59.billion euros or 0.6% of our gross national income, and that is, we are
:37:00. > :37:04.not there. That is a national threshold. You can get money
:37:05. > :37:08.regionally, and the, there are hoops to jump through, but the obviously
:37:09. > :37:13.the thresholds are lower for a region. The government has declined
:37:14. > :37:17.to do that, which is disappointing, and I hope that Owen Paterson will
:37:18. > :37:23.change his mind on that, but we are encouraging local councils to apply
:37:24. > :37:26.for another pot of EU money which commissioners confirm they could do,
:37:27. > :37:30.so it seems to us why look a gift horse in the mouth? A lot of people
:37:31. > :37:33.in the Somerset Levels will say that Europe has been part of the problem,
:37:34. > :37:37.why they are in this mess, because a long with the Environment Agency
:37:38. > :37:41.they have been anti-dredging, they have made it more difficult to
:37:42. > :37:44.dredge. European rules have made it more difficult. What do you do with
:37:45. > :37:48.the soil once you dredge it? They would like the money but they are
:37:49. > :37:53.not feeling very warm. Firstly on the money issue, Labour in 2007 got
:37:54. > :37:58.164 million out of the European Union for if floods we had in that
:37:59. > :38:03.year. The reason we are not applying and the Liberals can't escape
:38:04. > :38:06.responsibility for this, Danny Alexander is the Treasury minister
:38:07. > :38:11.and it affects the rebate and we lose a third of that through the
:38:12. > :38:14.rebate, so they are nervous about anything that detract trs the
:38:15. > :38:17.rebate, but in terms of European responsibility, I don't think you
:38:18. > :38:22.can blame Europe for the rain and floods. No, that is an aunt Sally,
:38:23. > :38:28.that is not what I said. Will is a huge argument over dredging policy
:38:29. > :38:33.and the EU has backed the line of the Environment Agency... I don't
:38:34. > :38:37.think it prescribes to national and regional agencies how they might,
:38:38. > :38:44.they don't micro manage in that way. What do you do with the soil? That
:38:45. > :38:49.is a different matter. You have to do an environmental impact study. It
:38:50. > :38:52.is the Environment Agency that decided this study, their view, that
:38:53. > :39:00.dredging shouldn't happen, not the EU. Right. OK. Now, a year since the
:39:01. > :39:06.Secretary of State -- a Secretary of State has apologise apologised after
:39:07. > :39:16.using less than diplomatic language about the role of the EU.
:39:17. > :39:19.Pro EU protestors have been demonstrating, for months after the
:39:20. > :39:25.Ukrainian Government decided odd a deal with Russia, instead of
:39:26. > :39:29.pursuing closer ties with the EU. Catherine Ashton has taken a
:39:30. > :39:33.prominent role in attempting to diffuse the crisis and she met with
:39:34. > :39:36.the Ukrainian President just yesterday. In the telephone
:39:37. > :39:40.conversation between the Americans it seems to have leaked from a
:39:41. > :39:45.Russian source, there is a surprise! The US diplomat appears unimpressed
:39:46. > :39:51.with the EU's efforts So than great, I think to help glue this thing and
:39:52. > :39:55.have the UN help glue it and (BLEEP) the EU. Exactly, I think we have to
:39:56. > :39:59.do something to make it stick together, because you can be sure if
:40:00. > :40:04.it does start to gain altitude, the Russians will be working behind the
:40:05. > :40:10.scenes to try to torpedo it. Now the US has refused to confirm or deny
:40:11. > :40:15.the authenticity of recording but a State Department spokeswoman said "I
:40:16. > :40:21.didn't say it was inauthentic." Victoria Nuland has been in touch
:40:22. > :40:27.with her EU counterparts to apologise for "The reported
:40:28. > :40:31.remarks." So why would you apologise if you haven't done something, what
:40:32. > :40:35.is your reaction? It is unfortunate wording, but obviously the Russians
:40:36. > :40:42.are trying to divide the US and the EU. I think a bit of cursing,
:40:43. > :40:47.sometimes happens between... Diplomacy Particularly in diplomacy,
:40:48. > :40:52.I think what we need to do is to reinforce working together between
:40:53. > :40:58.the EU and the US and to as the European Parliament has called for
:40:59. > :41:01.this week, to offer a financial assistance dependent on political
:41:02. > :41:05.dialogue, constitutional change, prospect of free election, to be
:41:06. > :41:11.prepared to take targeted sanctions against the thugs of the regime and
:41:12. > :41:16.the oligarchs who are supporting them, and to, you know, reinforce
:41:17. > :41:20.the work of the citizens of the Ukraine, it is their choice to make,
:41:21. > :41:24.we don't, we can't determine what they choose, but it does show that
:41:25. > :41:28.the EU and its values of democracy and human rights have pulling power
:41:29. > :41:35.and we should support that. ? We knew the Bush administration didn't
:41:36. > :41:39.take the EU seriously as a diplomatic entity. This suggests
:41:40. > :41:44.that maybe the Obama administration isn't that different. I think what
:41:45. > :41:47.it suggests is while the EU is trying to bring the two sides
:41:48. > :41:53.together the US is playing power politics, what she said was stuff
:41:54. > :41:57.the EU in more graphic ways, but basically she was trying to say we
:41:58. > :42:02.have to get some credit for any solution there, and that is a very
:42:03. > :42:07.narrow minded attitude when we are facing major crisis. And a difficult
:42:08. > :42:12.one too. Do the. U and the US do they have the same goals? The
:42:13. > :42:17.Ukraine? I believe, so fundamentally, there is always, I
:42:18. > :42:23.enmean, you know, no-one is pure in all of this, I suppose we all
:42:24. > :42:26.political forces want to get some credit for, for a accident outcome,
:42:27. > :42:31.but I think, you know, broadly we are on the same page, which is to
:42:32. > :42:36.get peaceful political transition in Ukraine, to allow the Ukrainian
:42:37. > :42:45.people to make their own choices and not be bullied by Russia and a very
:42:46. > :42:50.unpleasant regime, and to, and to prevent violence and you know,
:42:51. > :42:54.prospect of civil strife. I believe we are on the same page, but of
:42:55. > :42:57.course there is a bit of rivalry. I think we are broadly, in terms of
:42:58. > :43:03.sopping the violence, bringing the sides together. I think the US shows
:43:04. > :43:06.an attitude they want to liberate the Ukraine, I don't think that is
:43:07. > :43:11.the European Union role or the US's role. It is not Russia's job to
:43:12. > :43:18.colonise it. Our job is to bring the two sides together. It is ANSA
:43:19. > :43:22.asymmetric dispute. Even the US has only soft power to bring to this
:43:23. > :43:27.whereas you get the impression that it wouldn't be, it is not beyond the
:43:28. > :43:33.bounds of possibility that Mr Putin could use hard power? Yes, died. We
:43:34. > :43:36.had a couple of Ukrainian MPs in the Parliament two weeks' ago and
:43:37. > :43:41.firstly on the hard power against soft power they made the point, you
:43:42. > :43:46.can never guarantee Russian tanks won't roll over the board, they said
:43:47. > :43:50.they came with 16 billion in aid, they said their words was 600
:43:51. > :43:57.thousand, that is a big difference. It is probably more than that. Would
:43:58. > :44:03.you want to get into a bidding war? What the EU can offer, which the US
:44:04. > :44:07.can't is the prospect of trade relationship, and eventually, who
:44:08. > :44:12.know, we should not close the door on membership for Ukraine, that is
:44:13. > :44:19.something which the US can't offer. It is Moscow's worst nightmare. It
:44:20. > :44:26.shouldn't be. We are no doubt it is authentic. Are we agreed on that?
:44:27. > :44:31.Yes Some predicted the the mice, the eurozone is still in one piece
:44:32. > :44:36.though. So have the nay says been proved wrong or are there still
:44:37. > :44:42.dangers ahead. Jo Coburn has been talking to MEPs in Strasbourg.
:44:43. > :44:47.The financial storm that hit Europe in 2008 wreaked havoc in the region.
:44:48. > :44:50.Even the most drastic action couldn't protect economies from the
:44:51. > :44:54.continual batter of a European downturn.
:44:55. > :44:59.A few years on, though, the euro is still here, and talk of a euro
:45:00. > :45:04.crisis has subsided. So are there blue skies ahead? Opinion is
:45:05. > :45:08.divided. The European Commission said last week that there are
:45:09. > :45:16.encouraging signs that the economy is strengthening. Ittests growth in
:45:17. > :45:19.eurozone of 1.1% for 2014, couple I paired toon estimated 0.4%
:45:20. > :45:25.contraction for 2013. But unemployment in the euro area is
:45:26. > :45:37.expected to remain a record 12.2% this year. Globalisation is bringing
:45:38. > :45:42.a lot of opportunities and a lot of problems. If there's a chance, then
:45:43. > :45:50.I think Europe has a lot of power to be a strong contender in the next
:45:51. > :45:54.decades. But for some countries the storm clouds never went away. The
:45:55. > :45:58.four crossed for Greece is still very gloomy. The opposition say the
:45:59. > :46:05.Greek people are running out of patience.
:46:06. > :46:16.I don't see any hope of these politicians. They don't see the
:46:17. > :46:22.future and they don't believe in better days for our country. Key
:46:23. > :46:25.figures in the EU believe the only solution is deep integration of the
:46:26. > :46:32.euro zone to protect it from future turbulence. Common currency creates
:46:33. > :46:42.stability, normally, and the common currency is almost -- also the main
:46:43. > :46:48.engine for growth. I am optimistic about that. It doesn't mean that we
:46:49. > :46:55.have already overcome this crisis. This crisis needs more reforms than
:46:56. > :46:59.we have already done today. The main reforms we need is to establish an
:47:00. > :47:07.economic and fiscal union because you need cooperation if you have a
:47:08. > :47:13.single currency. There are still voices forecasting storms ahead. But
:47:14. > :47:15.the idea of a single currency designed for countries with such
:47:16. > :47:22.economic outlooks is fundamentally flawed. The plaster has been stuck
:47:23. > :47:28.and they are not tackling the underlying problems. Member states
:47:29. > :47:32.are different and they are different in the way they run their economies
:47:33. > :47:36.are different in their cultures, and different in the expectations of
:47:37. > :47:42.people. The European Union has a lot to offer Europeans and member
:47:43. > :47:47.states. But I don't think economic unity is one of those things. Things
:47:48. > :47:51.may be looking brighter, at least on the surface. But the long-range
:47:52. > :47:54.forecast for Europe is still very uncertain. With the region still
:47:55. > :48:00.vulnerable to any changes in the economic weather. Politicians here
:48:01. > :48:04.hope the sun has finally set on the crisis that many thought could end
:48:05. > :48:16.the whole European project. But they have yet to find agreement on the
:48:17. > :48:20.best way to more prosperous times. And joining Sarah and David is
:48:21. > :48:22.Patrick O'Flynn, who is director of communications for UKIP and a
:48:23. > :48:25.candidate in the forthcoming European elections 2012, Nigel
:48:26. > :48:30.Farage. We are entering the endgame of the
:48:31. > :48:33.political project. This is going to come to the dramatic head over the
:48:34. > :48:39.course of the next two years. Turned out to be wrong, didn't he? In time
:48:40. > :48:43.frames, he is wrong, but I am certain he is right about the
:48:44. > :48:48.conclusion. We need some basic economics. If you paid your economy
:48:49. > :48:53.to Germany's, you are in trouble. We learn that with Britain and White
:48:54. > :48:58.Wednesday, when we could do what we've should do, which is to
:48:59. > :49:04.depreciate... Last I looked, the eurozone is still intact.
:49:05. > :49:08.unemployment, living standards are falling, falling, after year,
:49:09. > :49:10.throughout southern Europe. Eventually the people there will
:49:11. > :49:19.decide that is announced assignable way of carrying on. -- and
:49:20. > :49:27.unsustainable way of carrying on. But we have economic stagnation.
:49:28. > :49:33.Now, particularly for the Club Med countries, the real serious problem
:49:34. > :49:40.of deflation. It is absolutely true that we're not out of the woods.
:49:41. > :49:47.Needs to be further reform. We are still stuck in the forest! A lot of
:49:48. > :49:54.of work has been done to get us to this stage. What I find absurd from
:49:55. > :50:02.UKIP is it is so unpatriotic to want the eurozone to implode. We rely on
:50:03. > :50:08.it for economic links and 3 million jobs in the UK. George Osborne once
:50:09. > :50:13.stability in the eurozone because he knows that it is no good to the UK.
:50:14. > :50:22.In fact, UKIP is showing itself to be unpatriotic. That is ludicrous!
:50:23. > :50:27.Let him respond. We would love the countries of Europe to be
:50:28. > :50:32.successful. Do you watch the eurozone to break up? I say it
:50:33. > :50:36.cannot work. If you are not on the same long-term productivity part as
:50:37. > :50:39.Germany, you need to depreciate against its currency or becoming
:50:40. > :50:44.activity gets sucked into Germany. One economist called it a giant
:50:45. > :50:51.vampire squid if that. You are a Labour MEP. The eurozone before
:50:52. > :50:56.summoning of its members, has in mass unemployment, of the kind we
:50:57. > :51:05.have not seen this is the 1930s. Now we have this problem in the southern
:51:06. > :51:14.countries of deflation. Once you get into deflation, the Japanese --
:51:15. > :51:17.prices continue to fall. People think, I won't buy that today,
:51:18. > :51:28.because it will be cheaper tomorrow. But to use a Scottish expression,
:51:29. > :51:32.you never get out of the Hubble. We have muddled through the crisis. The
:51:33. > :51:40.challenge now is to sort out the model. It is economic, not
:51:41. > :51:43.financial. Exactly. The unemployment level is not acceptable. We have
:51:44. > :51:49.called for a youth creation scheme to get the youth working at the
:51:50. > :51:53.European level. We have suggested sharing borrowing costs so that
:51:54. > :51:59.Greece and Italy can borrow better, get the economy moving again. Remove
:52:00. > :52:03.some of the debt by sharing of pulling the cost. Germany is sharing
:52:04. > :52:11.some of the benefits from the Europe with other member states. But you
:52:12. > :52:17.could go back to the same problem of overindebtedness that created the
:52:18. > :52:20.problem. What is needed as well is to tackle uncompetitive markets and
:52:21. > :52:25.to have investment in productivity and Labour market reforms, like in
:52:26. > :52:32.France. Francois Hollande has spoken about it but he is not delivering on
:52:33. > :52:37.it. You pay over 40% of salary to employ somebody in France. That is a
:52:38. > :52:40.huge deterrent. If you leave a generation unemployed, which we are
:52:41. > :52:46.in danger of doing, you store up enormous problems for the whole of
:52:47. > :52:55.the European Union. You are allied with France. The idea that some
:52:56. > :52:59.countries are going to be able to compete in a locked rate with
:53:00. > :53:03.Germany, long-term, is for the birds. It is never going to happen.
:53:04. > :53:07.Germany has the scale, the brands, the infrastructure, the technical
:53:08. > :53:11.education, the industrial relations all on its side. You have been to
:53:12. > :53:16.Greece on holiday. It is siesta country. It is not in the culture.
:53:17. > :53:19.They are not going to be able to do it. The economic activity is going
:53:20. > :53:24.to be sucked away from them for good. Every year, they are going to
:53:25. > :53:27.get smaller and poorer. Is the European government going to put
:53:28. > :53:32.pressure on the central bank to become more activist? There are a
:53:33. > :53:36.lot of calls that it starts to bomb Europe with the money. That they
:53:37. > :53:41.need to put a lot more money into the system. It needs to go around
:53:42. > :53:45.the major European banks and by their loan books and put cash onto
:53:46. > :53:56.the ballot sheets of European banks so they can start to lend again. We
:53:57. > :54:00.discussed this on Thursday. The parliament has argued strongly for
:54:01. > :54:06.it. The British Conservatives voted against it but we argue for more
:54:07. > :54:13.activist ECB. We need quantitative easing. We need shared borrowing
:54:14. > :54:16.costs and lending. That would avoid the indebtedness that you talk
:54:17. > :54:25.about. But only sharing under strict conditions. We have to move on. It
:54:26. > :54:33.is an economic issue, not a financial one.
:54:34. > :54:36.So the continent's still crippled by debt and struggling to emerge from
:54:37. > :54:38.financial crisis, but European countries are still ploughing
:54:39. > :54:46.billions of euros into the European Space Agency. Here's Adam with his
:54:47. > :54:50.latest A-Z of Europe. Europe's Rover calls over the
:54:51. > :54:55.surface of the red planet. Except it is really the Netherlands, where you
:54:56. > :54:59.will find the research and technology centre of a European
:55:00. > :55:03.Space Agency. It is where most of the agency's missions are planned
:55:04. > :55:09.and built. This one takes off in 2018, and will have robotic design
:55:10. > :55:14.by an engineer from Greece. Better not crash. It is costing 1 billion
:55:15. > :55:17.euros. What would you say to your fellow Greeks who are struggling
:55:18. > :55:22.financially to convince them this is worth investing in? This is
:55:23. > :55:26.investing in research and development. It is creating jobs,
:55:27. > :55:34.high-tech jobs for Europe. It crates intellectual capital. -- creates.
:55:35. > :55:38.This is important for progress. Missions are launched in French
:55:39. > :55:42.Guiana in South America. Astronauts get trained in Germany, and a new
:55:43. > :55:47.lab has opened in the UK. Back in Holland, I'd done some fashionable
:55:48. > :55:54.space where to meet one of the senior Brits here. -- I put on.
:55:55. > :55:58.Here, they similar to the conditions up there. One of Mark's pet projects
:55:59. > :56:07.is the resident probe, which later this year will land on a comet.
:56:08. > :56:14.Hopefully. -- the Rosetta probe. I think it is a great example of
:56:15. > :56:17.European cooperation. The badges come off at that point. When we are
:56:18. > :56:22.sitting in a control room waiting for the results from one of our
:56:23. > :56:26.missions, we are all European. It is great. Although, walking around this
:56:27. > :56:30.place, there are no EU flags. That is because the agency is
:56:31. > :56:34.independent. It is funded and run by its 20 member states, which come
:56:35. > :56:41.confusingly, include Canada. In several countries, the fourth
:56:42. > :56:47.largest contributor behind France, Germany and Italy. A few years ago,
:56:48. > :56:52.we upped our contributions, making the UK lots of friends around here.
:56:53. > :56:56.Each memo pays a sort of basic subscription based on their national
:56:57. > :57:01.income, and the more you pay in, the more work gets sent your country's
:57:02. > :57:10.way. Member states, then, pick and choose which missions to invest in.
:57:11. > :57:12.Some countries have specific interest in launchers. They will
:57:13. > :57:20.invest more in launches than other areas. Other countries don't have
:57:21. > :57:24.such an interest. They don't have to put money into that programme.
:57:25. > :57:29.Having said it is not part of the EU, the agency does when Europe's
:57:30. > :57:33.equipment of the GPS system, Galileo, which the EU pays a lot of
:57:34. > :57:39.awful of the Lisbon Treaty also gave Brussels the power to have its own
:57:40. > :57:43.space policy for the first time. And prepare for Britain to go space mad.
:57:44. > :57:46.Next year, Major Tim Peake will become the first British astronaut
:57:47. > :57:53.to head into orbit on the European mission. You have both got 30
:57:54. > :57:59.seconds to give us your impressions. A good thing? It is. It is a great
:58:00. > :58:03.example of European co-operation. You get more bang for your bucks by
:58:04. > :58:07.cooperating. There is going to be a new centre in Oxfordshire. We have
:58:08. > :58:15.got 30,000 people in Britain in pride in space related technology.
:58:16. > :58:22.-- employed. It is good for jobs and good for the future prosperity. That
:58:23. > :58:27.is your 30 seconds. Now yours. I also agree. It is a good thing. This
:58:28. > :58:30.is not about putting a man on the moon. It is about the cutting edge
:58:31. > :58:34.of technology, which is all good for keeping Britain as an advanced
:58:35. > :58:41.industrial economy. And we get some payback for this. It might be
:58:42. > :58:45.disproportionate, in fact. All credit to the Coalition government,
:58:46. > :58:51.if I may say, by putting more money into the European Space Agency. This
:58:52. > :58:54.is not a party political programme That's all for today.
:58:55. > :59:03.! Thanks to my guests, David Martin and Sarah Ludford. Bye bye.