:00:40. > :00:46.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:47. > :00:52.The West resolves to speak with one voice against Russian aggression in
:00:53. > :00:55.Ukraine. But, are western countries actually divided on the issue?
:00:56. > :00:58.Tensions remain high in Crimea between Russian and Ukrainian
:00:59. > :01:08.troops. The US calls it a "brazen act of aggression", and says all
:01:09. > :01:11.options are on the table. Vladimir Putin says economic
:01:12. > :01:15.sanctions will backfire on the West. As a leaked British document exposes
:01:16. > :01:18.reticence about tough action, is the West at a loss about how to deal
:01:19. > :01:21.with Mr Putin? Labour unveils plans for tackling
:01:22. > :01:23.our "fragmented health and social care". But is it just another
:01:24. > :01:30.blueprint for a radical top-down reorganisation of the NHS?
:01:31. > :01:33.And, you've heard the one about MPs and flipping? No, I'm not talking
:01:34. > :01:39.about expenses! I'm talking about pancakes! Yes, it's Shrove Tuesday,
:01:40. > :01:45.and the annual Westminster pancake race. Stay tuned to see who won.
:01:46. > :01:58.All that in the next hour. With us for the whole programme
:01:59. > :02:01.today is Margaret Prosser. She was once a president of the TUC,
:02:02. > :02:05.Treasurer of the Labour Party, and now sits on the Labour benches in
:02:06. > :02:08.the House of Lords. Welcome to the show.
:02:09. > :02:15.Let's start with the latest developments in Ukraine. President
:02:16. > :02:20.Putin has been holding a press conference calling the toppling of
:02:21. > :02:24.President Yanukovych and anti constitutional coup. He said sending
:02:25. > :02:30.troops into the rest of the Ukraine was not needed but did not rule it
:02:31. > :02:35.out. He also warned economic sanctions from the West would
:02:36. > :02:41.backfire. John Kerry is on his way to Kiev in the Ukraine. He has
:02:42. > :02:43.reiterated his support for the new government.
:02:44. > :02:46.The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, who visited Kiev yesterday,
:02:47. > :02:57.is answering questions in the Commons at the moment. These are
:02:58. > :03:02.life pictures as we speak. He will give a statement on the Ukraine
:03:03. > :03:07.issue at 12:30pm, we will bring you some of that later in the show.
:03:08. > :03:12.The government has reiterated its condemnation of the Russian presence
:03:13. > :03:15.in Crimea. But it suffered an embarrassing incident yesterday
:03:16. > :03:21.afternoon, when a senior official was photographed with a briefing
:03:22. > :03:24.document on show. The document said: "The UK should not support for now
:03:25. > :03:28.trade sanctions, or close London's financial centre to Russians," And
:03:29. > :03:36.the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has this to say earlier this
:03:37. > :03:45.morning. I want to be really clear that
:03:46. > :03:47.Russia will face a range of diplomatic and political and
:03:48. > :03:55.economic consequences if it carries on with its current course. We are
:03:56. > :04:00.absolutely not ruling out now the kind of options we will look at, in
:04:01. > :04:04.order to make it very clear to President Putin and the Russian
:04:05. > :04:08.Federation that there will be very real consequences. There was no
:04:09. > :04:17.predetermined limit on the measures we will look at, entertain, in order
:04:18. > :04:24.to safeguard the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
:04:25. > :04:27.Taking a different line from what we saw in the security briefing
:04:28. > :04:30.yesterday. To give us more detail, we have the
:04:31. > :04:34.BBC's political correspondent, Norman Smith, joining us from the
:04:35. > :04:37.Central Lobby of Parliament. When William Hague makes his
:04:38. > :04:42.statement to the House of Commons, he will be under pressure to come up
:04:43. > :04:47.with a coherent government response. He may be under pressure but I do
:04:48. > :04:52.not think we will get much detail. I would characterise the government
:04:53. > :04:58.position as the Au al 's strategy, you had better not go into Ukraine,
:04:59. > :05:03.or else. But what actually that is, we do not know. I do not think we
:05:04. > :05:08.will find out. We have an indication what it is not. It is absolutely not
:05:09. > :05:14.military action which is off the table. We know from that document
:05:15. > :05:19.that it is also probably not any meaningful economic sanction or
:05:20. > :05:24.trade retaliation against Russia. We are not going to close the city to
:05:25. > :05:30.Russian investors, which leaves you scratching your head, what is it? We
:05:31. > :05:36.will not find out because, listening to William Hague, he has a wonderful
:05:37. > :05:39.way of saying a lot without saying much at all beyond vague assertions
:05:40. > :05:44.there will be costs and consequences. The reality is we are
:05:45. > :05:48.not being specific because there is an awareness anything specific could
:05:49. > :05:54.damage our own interests, take a long time to have impact, may not
:05:55. > :06:00.influence President Putin. Far better to keep it general and vague,
:06:01. > :06:06.and to hope by some overarching diplomatic blaster, that President
:06:07. > :06:12.Putin begins to step back and we can begin a process of engaging him in a
:06:13. > :06:15.diplomatic route. We're joined now by the Conservative
:06:16. > :06:18.MP John Whittingdale who chairs parliament's All-Party Ukraine
:06:19. > :06:24.Group. And by Sir Andrew Wood, a former British Ambassador to Moscow.
:06:25. > :06:29.If President Putin was listening that, he would take great comfort.
:06:30. > :06:35.Either we don't know what to do, we are undecided, what ever we do won't
:06:36. > :06:39.make any difference. What we need to do is to send the strongest message
:06:40. > :06:46.we can to President Putin that what has happened is not acceptable, in
:06:47. > :06:49.breach of international law, not acceptable in this century for a
:06:50. > :06:56.foreign power to have armed forces in another country. It is hard to
:06:57. > :07:03.divine what the response will be, not just from Britain, also Germany
:07:04. > :07:07.and America. This has two be done through international agreement. It
:07:08. > :07:15.is hard to define what the practical responses are. This has to be
:07:16. > :07:21.discussed very quickly. You can not send ministers of the Royal family
:07:22. > :07:26.to Sochi, but that is not enough. We may need economic sanctions, there
:07:27. > :07:34.is a range of ways, you can target individuals. That was ruled out in
:07:35. > :07:37.the security paper. That was a briefing not confirmed. Downing
:07:38. > :07:40.Street has said it does not represent the view. This is
:07:41. > :07:46.something they will have to settle quickly. Wealthy Russians are
:07:47. > :07:51.involved in wealth management in this country, football clubs,
:07:52. > :07:56.various industries. Are we going to stop them coming to this country to
:07:57. > :07:59.visit their investment? The property market. There is a very strong
:08:00. > :08:05.Russian community in written. I would like to see targeted sanctions
:08:06. > :08:12.against individual members of the government. They are not the ones
:08:13. > :08:17.who... Some do hold assets in this country. Would that make much of a
:08:18. > :08:23.difference to President Putin? It might make a difference. A lot of
:08:24. > :08:28.people do have houses in Knightsbridge who are associated. We
:08:29. > :08:33.need to look at all the options. That must mean measures which are
:08:34. > :08:37.going to have a significant impact on the Administration in Russia, to
:08:38. > :08:43.demonstrate we are not going to indulge in gestures, we take this
:08:44. > :08:48.seriously. Should that Deputy National Security adviser who
:08:49. > :08:53.revealed that document, Esat? I do not know who that was. He would have
:08:54. > :09:00.thought they have learned this lesson. Should he be sacked? It
:09:01. > :09:12.seems extraordinary that a national security adviser should have such a
:09:13. > :09:17.lax procedure. Why are spies needed, when they weigh these documents
:09:18. > :09:23.around in the street? We do know, at the end of the day, it is ministers
:09:24. > :09:28.who advise, with advice from officials. I hope they look at these
:09:29. > :09:33.measures seriously. We have to let you go because you are going to see
:09:34. > :09:46.the Ukrainian ambassador. Thank U. Ambassador, it is clear that when
:09:47. > :09:50.the coup took place in Kiev, the Russians at the very least were
:09:51. > :09:58.going to take control of Crimea. Why didn't the West anticipate that?
:09:59. > :10:04.I am not sure it was, to be honest. From the moment they announced
:10:05. > :10:11.exercises as not having any links with Ukraine, it was obvious. Crimea
:10:12. > :10:17.was an obvious target. And an easy one. Can I come back to your earlier
:10:18. > :10:21.questions. There is a very good reason why a lot of Russians keep
:10:22. > :10:26.their money in this country and do not invest in Russia. The punishment
:10:27. > :10:32.for Putin will essentially be that this will do great harm to his
:10:33. > :10:38.economy. It will certainly make foreign investment more difficult.
:10:39. > :10:42.It will certainly increase the likelihood that he will be still
:10:43. > :10:48.more repressive to his own people. It will certainly be read by Russian
:10:49. > :10:53.potential investors of increasing the risk of arbitrary rule and the
:10:54. > :10:58.risk to their own investment. They are already in economic trouble and
:10:59. > :11:02.this will make it worse, perhaps in the longer run, it can make it
:11:03. > :11:06.better, but I do not think so. They have to go through a period of
:11:07. > :11:15.painful reform, pretty much what we are prying -- trying to prescribe to
:11:16. > :11:21.Ukraine. That would be attracted to Putin Russia is itself in a bind.
:11:22. > :11:25.There is a terrific charge from going in with troops, it is not a
:11:26. > :11:30.drug which lasts. I understand budget is in a bind
:11:31. > :11:35.because it needs foreign currency it gets from oil and gas sales to
:11:36. > :11:44.Europe. It needs more than that. That is 50% of revenue. A big chunk
:11:45. > :11:49.comes through the Ukraine. Who would blink first, the Europeans need the
:11:50. > :11:56.gas, Germany, Holland, Poland. You would wonder that the Kremlin will
:11:57. > :12:06.be tough on this than we would be. The last time they cut off the gas,
:12:07. > :12:15.it was estimated Gazprom lost about 3 billion. It is a question of
:12:16. > :12:22.mutual suffering. Gazprom will not like losing that revenue. It has
:12:23. > :12:26.reserves of over 300 billion. But this is a long-term issue. For
:12:27. > :12:31.sanctions to have an effect, they need to be on for a long period,
:12:32. > :12:37.which is why it is not a realistic option. There is no will to do that.
:12:38. > :12:45.I would be surprised. Looking at the British response, and the Americans
:12:46. > :12:52.were the rhetoric is tougher. The real response that matters is
:12:53. > :12:56.Germany. The new social Democratic Minister has indicated he thinks we
:12:57. > :13:01.should still go to the G eight. He is not even signed up to boycotting
:13:02. > :13:05.that. He is hostage to the bleep if you're nice to the Russians, he will
:13:06. > :13:16.learn to be as nice as you are. Which is a fallacy. If we haven't
:13:17. > :13:22.got the Germans... Unlike the British, the Germans have
:13:23. > :13:29.substantial foreign -- foreign direct investment. So have we, BP
:13:30. > :13:38.has a huge investment in Russia. We have got huge services sectors, a
:13:39. > :13:43.fine tradition of doing Russian trials in this country. I want to
:13:44. > :13:51.bring Margaret in here. What do you make of it all?
:13:52. > :13:56.Well, interestingly, watching the demonstrations in the square in
:13:57. > :14:00.Kiev, clearly, those people were feeling hugely energised by the idea
:14:01. > :14:06.of change. And then you think to yourself, but you are not the whole
:14:07. > :14:16.community. Only one part of it. How are they going, as time goes along,
:14:17. > :14:20.to demonstrate some inclusivity. The country is made up of very different
:14:21. > :14:26.groups of people. Unless they all feel they have a shout in the future
:14:27. > :14:31.of the country, they are not going to be happy with one solution, be it
:14:32. > :14:41.a Russian or European solution. It has to bring in more people, surely?
:14:42. > :14:45.Crimea is now in Russian hands, be any question mark now has to be
:14:46. > :14:50.whether he moves in on the eastern Ukraine as well? It is easy to
:14:51. > :15:01.exaggerate the depth of attachment in eastern Ukraine for Russia.
:15:02. > :15:08.it is true there are stronger conditions of European traditions,
:15:09. > :15:15.if you like, in the West, not least because that is the part of Ukraine
:15:16. > :15:22.that was seized by Stalin. But it is also true that it was as much
:15:23. > :15:27.recognising that Victor Yanukovych was a thief and a third in the east
:15:28. > :15:32.as in the West. There is a much better chance at the moment of a
:15:33. > :15:36.degree of support across the country for the sort of difficult changes
:15:37. > :15:41.that would need to be done. We should sympathise with the
:15:42. > :15:46.reluctance to undertake them, we have never wanted to upset things,
:15:47. > :15:51.it is easy to go on doing the same thing, but the country is broke for
:15:52. > :15:56.a good reason. We shall see how events unfold. Some shots were fired
:15:57. > :16:00.this morning, so it is a moving story. A senior Downing Street
:16:01. > :16:03.adviser has been arrested in connection with allegations about
:16:04. > :16:06.imagery of child abuse. Number Ten has confirmed that Patrick Rock, who
:16:07. > :16:10.was the deputy head of policy, was detained at his home last month and
:16:11. > :16:12.has resigned from his post. Let's get more with our political
:16:13. > :16:22.correspondent Carole Walker who is outside Downing Street. Bring us up
:16:23. > :16:26.to date. Patrick Rock is someone who has worked for the Conservative
:16:27. > :16:31.Party for decades, going back to the era of Margaret Thatcher and John
:16:32. > :16:37.Major. He knew David Cameron well from their days when they were both
:16:38. > :16:43.special adviser and the Prime Minister brought him back as deputy
:16:44. > :16:52.head of the policy unit in 2011, so Patrick Rock was closely involved in
:16:53. > :16:56.the Fx to draw up rules to block access to child pornography on the
:16:57. > :17:04.Internet. He was arrested in the early hours in relation to a
:17:05. > :17:09.potential offence relating to child abuse imagery. Number Ten say they
:17:10. > :17:13.are cooperating fully with the investigation and they have given
:17:14. > :17:17.them access to computers and officers and so on. They are saying
:17:18. > :17:22.as this is an ongoing investigation it would not be appropriate to say
:17:23. > :17:28.anything further, although they are stressing the Prime Minister views
:17:29. > :17:32.child abuse images at up rent and anyone who has anything to do with
:17:33. > :17:36.this should be dealt with properly under the law. But it is worth
:17:37. > :17:39.remembering that Patrick Rock has not been charged with anything and
:17:40. > :17:45.we have not been able to contact him to get a response to the
:17:46. > :17:48.allegations. Now, as you all know it is National Apprenticeship Week. Oh,
:17:49. > :17:51.you didn't know that? Well, it is. Prime Minister David Cameron is
:17:52. > :17:54.speaking in Coventry today about apprentices and how they can help
:17:55. > :17:57.the long-term economic recovery. He will say apprentices form part of
:17:58. > :18:01.the Government's broader economic plan to create jobs and cut taxes
:18:02. > :18:05.before the next election. But are apprenticeships really one of the
:18:06. > :18:10.coalition's success stories? Or could they be doing more to help
:18:11. > :18:17.people train for future careers? We can speak now to the Skills
:18:18. > :18:22.Minister, Matthew Hancock. Welcome to the programme. I am sorry we did
:18:23. > :18:28.not have you on on Sunday, but Ukraine meant we had to cover that
:18:29. > :18:31.instead. I understand. The Government is emphasising a lot
:18:32. > :18:35.about its support for apprenticeships and I have heard you
:18:36. > :18:39.do the same. There are more apprenticeships and their work in
:18:40. > :18:45.the last years of the last Labour Government, but they fell last year.
:18:46. > :18:48.Why was that? There has been a sharp rise in the number of
:18:49. > :18:56.apprenticeships and in the last year those participating were at record
:18:57. > :19:00.levels, 868,000. We have taken action to make sure every
:19:01. > :19:03.apprenticeship is high quality. Previously an apprenticeship could
:19:04. > :19:08.be less than one year long and I do not see that as a proper
:19:09. > :19:12.apprenticeship. We have insisted everyone has a minimum of one year
:19:13. > :19:17.and that means we have removed some low quality provision. If you take
:19:18. > :19:21.those that are longer than one year and that our high quality, then
:19:22. > :19:27.those numbers are going up. It is not only about the numbers, it is
:19:28. > :19:33.also about quality. You talk about quality, but a big chunk of the
:19:34. > :19:37.apprenticeships are in two sectors, health and business Administration.
:19:38. > :19:43.I would not run those down, but you know as well as I do that this
:19:44. > :19:48.country's skilled shortage is in the stem skills, science, technology,
:19:49. > :19:54.engineering and mathematics. Why don't we have more apprenticeships
:19:55. > :19:59.in these? The number applying for engineering apprenticeships went up
:20:00. > :20:04.over 20% over the last two years. But one of the things we have done
:20:05. > :20:08.that has made apprenticeships a big part of the scene these days is made
:20:09. > :20:16.sure that they reflect the whole economy. As well as the traditional
:20:17. > :20:20.areas of engineering and manufacturing where we have skills
:20:21. > :20:24.shortages, and they would be worse without these schemes, we have got
:20:25. > :20:29.to make sure the apprenticeships can get you to all sorts of the economy.
:20:30. > :20:34.I was in Saint Thomas 's hospital yesterday with the health care
:20:35. > :20:38.apprenticeships. Today we are launching a graduate apprenticeship
:20:39. > :20:43.in nursing to be able to get you to be a fully qualified nurse through
:20:44. > :20:49.an apprenticeship at graduate level. You can now become a fully qualified
:20:50. > :20:53.solicitor through an apprenticeship without necessarily having gone to
:20:54. > :21:00.university and that was not possible before. The economy is broad. This
:21:01. > :21:06.country is not exactly short of solicitors. But it is short of
:21:07. > :21:10.engineers and scientists and technologists and surely that is
:21:11. > :21:15.where any apprenticeship programme should concentrate? It is not
:21:16. > :21:19.either, aura. We would have a problem if we did not have high
:21:20. > :21:24.quality training in the health sector. Likewise, the law is
:21:25. > :21:29.dominated by people who went to university and the best schools and
:21:30. > :21:32.apprenticeships can open up access. The BBC launched an apprenticeship
:21:33. > :21:38.programme yesterday, I was there with Tony Hall, launching an
:21:39. > :21:41.apprenticeship in journalism to broaden access into the BBC's so you
:21:42. > :21:47.do not have to have gone to the right school to get into the BBC.
:21:48. > :21:52.These sorts of moves both to get the skills, but also to broaden channels
:21:53. > :21:58.of entry into the professions are really important. We want to make it
:21:59. > :22:02.the new norm that when a young person leaves school they can choose
:22:03. > :22:07.either to go to university or into an apprenticeship and they get
:22:08. > :22:11.high-quality options for both. Our job is not to push people one way or
:22:12. > :22:19.the other, but to make sure there are high quality options on both
:22:20. > :22:25.sides. 45% of apprenticeships start as work over the age of 25 and that
:22:26. > :22:31.is encouraging in that in one sense older people are getting new skills
:22:32. > :22:39.to suit new demands. But on the other hand there are about 1 million
:22:40. > :22:43.young people not in education or employment or training, and we know
:22:44. > :22:47.there are still far greater demands for apprenticeships among young
:22:48. > :22:53.people than there are places for young people. Yes, it is important
:22:54. > :22:58.that it is an all age programme as you say, not least because in this
:22:59. > :23:03.economy whole industries come and go and we need to make sure people can
:23:04. > :23:07.retrain. But we have also got to get support at the younger end.
:23:08. > :23:15.Interestingly, last Thursday statistics came out showing that the
:23:16. > :23:18.number of 16-18 -year-olds without jobs or training is at the lowest
:23:19. > :23:25.level since action began. There is action that is starting to be taken
:23:26. > :23:30.that is showing to be working. It is still too high, but it is coming
:23:31. > :23:35.down. There is growth in the apprenticeships aged between 19 and
:23:36. > :23:40.24. I agree that broadly we have got to have an all age programme, but
:23:41. > :23:44.action to tackle youth unemployment involves apprenticeships and the new
:23:45. > :23:49.trainee schemes for those who have not got the wherewithal to hold down
:23:50. > :23:53.a job, but it is also about making it easier for employers to employ
:23:54. > :24:05.young people and some of the action we are taking is one of the reasons
:24:06. > :24:08.youth unemployment is finally starting to fall. You have got views
:24:09. > :24:11.on this given your experience in the TUC and the Labour Party. What would
:24:12. > :24:15.you say? On the one hand, of course, any attention being paid to
:24:16. > :24:20.training and upscaling people for work is to be welcomed. I am
:24:21. > :24:25.confused, as are many people in the country, by the use of the term
:24:26. > :24:30.apprenticeship. I am glad to hear him say it will be a minimum of 12
:24:31. > :24:35.months, but that does not make it an apprenticeship. It is a training
:24:36. > :24:45.programme. The term apprenticeship is a fast one. You think it is too
:24:46. > :24:48.wide? It is far too wide. The TUC is a big supporter of the
:24:49. > :24:52.apprenticeship programme and I work very closely with them. What about
:24:53. > :25:00.the point is the definition is too wide? Moving the minimum up to the
:25:01. > :25:05.year was the right thing to do and driving up quality overall is really
:25:06. > :25:12.vital. You can do one apprenticeship at an entry-level and then go on to
:25:13. > :25:17.do a higher apprenticeship or even now a degree level or Masters level
:25:18. > :25:21.apprenticeship. The point is to get people into progression so you keep
:25:22. > :25:25.training all way through and make sure whether or not you go to
:25:26. > :25:30.university there is training available, that you can keep moving
:25:31. > :25:33.up the career ladder. If you made one year apprenticeship and then you
:25:34. > :25:40.did another apprenticeship to get you up to a higher level of
:25:41. > :25:43.skill... But over all the support for the programme and the increasing
:25:44. > :25:49.quality in the programme is important. What do you make of the
:25:50. > :25:55.attempt by conservatives in the Cabinet to try and talk the Liberals
:25:56. > :26:00.into getting a referendum deal on Europe and recall mechanism into the
:26:01. > :26:06.Queen's speech? I have not followed it, I have been talking about
:26:07. > :26:11.apprenticeships all day. But I do support having a referendum on
:26:12. > :26:17.membership of the EU in 2017. Would you like to see it in the Queen's
:26:18. > :26:22.speech? I very much would like to see it happen. We had to have it as
:26:23. > :26:27.a private member 's' bill because the Lib Dems did not want it to
:26:28. > :26:32.happen. And you are happy with recall of MPs if they are not
:26:33. > :26:37.behaving? There are good arguments. I used to sit on the standards and
:26:38. > :26:42.privileges committee in the Commons which currently adjudicates on
:26:43. > :26:47.whether an MP should be kicked out. The arguments are difficult and
:26:48. > :26:51.finely balance. So long as you get the right structures in place, I
:26:52. > :26:58.think it could work, but you have got to get the details right so you
:26:59. > :27:05.do not get purely vexatious recall elections. IU encouraged this was
:27:06. > :27:08.discussed and they try to force it through this morning? I will wait to
:27:09. > :27:14.read the minutes and find that the official version. It is good you
:27:15. > :27:23.came here and got an early heads up. We thank you for speaking about
:27:24. > :27:29.apprenticeships. Remember when David Cameron revealed that they would not
:27:30. > :27:44.do a top-down reorganisation of the NHS? Labour opposed that programme.
:27:45. > :27:51.But today Andy Burnham reviewed their plans for the NHS. He calls it
:27:52. > :27:56.whole person care which would create an integrated service with a single
:27:57. > :28:01.budget for further, mental and social needs. The same budget that
:28:02. > :28:10.treats us when we were ill would also treat as in old age. Ed
:28:11. > :28:14.Miliband and Ed Balls why not entirely convinced. Could the public
:28:15. > :28:19.really stand another major round of NHS reforms? They told Andy Burnham
:28:20. > :28:23.to go away and get a second opinion. John Alden is a former
:28:24. > :28:27.senior civil servant at the Department of Health and a doctor
:28:28. > :28:30.and was appointed to head up a commission into what Ed Miliband
:28:31. > :28:36.called the biggest challenge in the history of the NHS. The main problem
:28:37. > :28:40.was Doctor Burnham's suggestion that local councils would be given the
:28:41. > :28:48.power to decide what to spend in the budget. Today so John has published
:28:49. > :28:53.his report and set out his vision for whole person care. It has got Ed
:28:54. > :28:58.Miliband's endorsement, but how close is it to what Andy Burnham
:28:59. > :29:03.came up with in the first place? What exactly would it mean for the
:29:04. > :29:08.NHS. Richard Humphreys is an assistant director at the Kings
:29:09. > :29:14.fund. What do you make of this proposal? This is very significant
:29:15. > :29:19.report that will influence the shape of labour's final policy ahead of
:29:20. > :29:23.the next election. It makes a very strong and compelling case for
:29:24. > :29:28.change. Also the need for a much more integrated model of care in
:29:29. > :29:33.which different bits of the NHS and the care system work together to
:29:34. > :29:39.wrap care around the needs of individuals and care closer to home
:29:40. > :29:42.and more emphasis on prevention. But this is a long-standing policy
:29:43. > :29:47.ambition. It is easier to talk about it than it is to achieve it. The
:29:48. > :29:52.report has come up with some very helpful and practical proposals that
:29:53. > :29:56.will remove some of the obstacles that have prevented this from
:29:57. > :30:02.happening in the past, but it still leaves and resolve some big issues
:30:03. > :30:06.about money and funding, which he acknowledges in the report. How much
:30:07. > :30:11.money would be needed to make this a success? That is very hard to say.
:30:12. > :30:16.Part of the problem stems from the fact that we have got a health care
:30:17. > :30:22.system that is free at the point of views and we pay for it out of
:30:23. > :30:26.social taxation. The social care system is means tested, rationed and
:30:27. > :30:30.fewer people are using it, yet there are more of us with a mixture of
:30:31. > :30:37.health and care needs that need both systems to work together. It is very
:30:38. > :30:42.hard to do that when you have got a very underfunded care system and an
:30:43. > :30:45.NHS which is starting to creep under financial pressure. Because of that
:30:46. > :30:51.we have set up an independent commission also to look at these
:30:52. > :30:56.bigger questions about funding and entitlement, how we pay for the kind
:30:57. > :31:02.of quantity and quality of care we need in the future and how that is
:31:03. > :31:12.done. Thank you for joining us.
:31:13. > :31:15.With us now is Liz Kendall, the Shadow Minister for Care and Older
:31:16. > :31:22.People. This is another vision for NHS
:31:23. > :31:28.reform. A lot of people in the NHS might be saying, particularly after
:31:29. > :31:35.the Tory reforms, leave us alone. The last thing that anybody working
:31:36. > :31:38.in the health service wants is another reorganisation. It was in
:31:39. > :31:44.the terms of reference for the review to make sure what he proposed
:31:45. > :31:48.would not lead to another reorganisation. The proposals he has
:31:49. > :31:53.come up with can be achieved without the kind of reorganisation which has
:31:54. > :32:00.thrown the system into chaos. Won't you repeal the 2012 care act?
:32:01. > :32:06.We want to get rid of the competition part of that act. The
:32:07. > :32:12.review says, if you want to join up services, provide more care in the
:32:13. > :32:17.community at home, have an integrated set of services, that
:32:18. > :32:22.part of legislation is preventing integrated service is happening. Is
:32:23. > :32:26.it part of the act you would repeal? We want to get rid of part of the
:32:27. > :32:34.bill stopping the services from working together. The act was a
:32:35. > :32:42.top-down organisation reform. If you repeal it, you have two replace it
:32:43. > :32:47.with something. We won't get rid of the clinical commissioning groups or
:32:48. > :32:51.the health and well-being boards. If you don't mind me saying, your
:32:52. > :33:00.introduction about why we have done this is completely wrong. The reason
:33:01. > :33:05.why we asked him to look at this is because, when Andrew Lansley got in,
:33:06. > :33:10.he spun this on people without properly involving them. We have
:33:11. > :33:16.worked with people in services, councils, hospitals to get something
:33:17. > :33:25.that can be implemented practically. Politicians don't know
:33:26. > :33:30.all the answers. Absolutely! I never worked that out! We have tried to do
:33:31. > :33:35.something different, to get people working in the services to help make
:33:36. > :33:40.the changes. Andy Burnham suggested local councils would decide where to
:33:41. > :33:46.spend the integrated budgets. In this report, it doesn't look like
:33:47. > :33:50.those budgets will be handed over. Health and well-being boards have an
:33:51. > :33:55.important role. They can do things like link up with housing and other
:33:56. > :34:01.issues locally. The review says, if the local health service and council
:34:02. > :34:11.decide they want one budget, it is up to them. It shouldn't be forced
:34:12. > :34:15.on them. You will know it was Mr Miliband who blocked the idea of
:34:16. > :34:21.handing budgets over to local government. I have never heard them
:34:22. > :34:29.say anything about what Andy has been proposing, they have always...
:34:30. > :34:38.The funding idea was misguided. Where did you get that from? The
:34:39. > :34:41.Independent newspaper. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband understand our health
:34:42. > :34:49.care system needs to change to improve care for people and get
:34:50. > :34:54.value for money. We have more people living longer with more chronic
:34:55. > :34:57.conditions. At the moment our system is based on hospitals when we need
:34:58. > :35:04.more care in the community and at home. This excellent report gives
:35:05. > :35:10.practical proposals. But local authorities will not get
:35:11. > :35:15.the money. If a council and NHS locally want to join up, they should
:35:16. > :35:20.be allowed to do so. That is not what Andy Burnham originally
:35:21. > :35:25.proposed. He believes councils should have an important and bigger
:35:26. > :35:32.role. This report has set out how we might do that. The report also says
:35:33. > :35:36.it will need ?10 billion from existing allocations. No, it
:35:37. > :35:41.doesn't. It says everything in the report can be achieved within the
:35:42. > :35:48.existing finances. They want to see a shift in the focus of resources
:35:49. > :35:54.more into the community. Where does that money come from? You can't
:35:55. > :35:59.shift funds without someone losing. In the places where it has worked
:36:00. > :36:04.well, they have not had so many general medical beds in hospitals,
:36:05. > :36:11.too many older people who could be kept at home. They have shifted that
:36:12. > :36:15.money into local teams, nurses, physiotherapists, social care
:36:16. > :36:21.support people, to keep people at home. The money has been shifted
:36:22. > :36:28.into the community. That is what we want to see in all parts of the
:36:29. > :36:32.country. ?3.8 billion has already been put in. That is existing
:36:33. > :36:44.resources. You are talking about shifting existing resources. Out of
:36:45. > :36:51.a total budget of ?120 billion. This has started a process you want to
:36:52. > :36:56.reinforce. Actually, we do want to see this but three years have been
:36:57. > :37:01.spent on reorganisation when they should have been focused on this.
:37:02. > :37:06.This legislation is preventing joined up working. Where hospitals
:37:07. > :37:15.want to work closely with community services, they are being prevented
:37:16. > :37:23.because of this so legislation -- this legislation. Margaret?
:37:24. > :37:27.Overall, it sounds what -- this is what is needed. People are living
:37:28. > :37:32.longer, they have multiple issues to be dealt with, some of which are
:37:33. > :37:41.better dealt with within a medical context, a social context. What I
:37:42. > :37:47.think is there, is the devil is in the detail. There needs to be a
:37:48. > :37:52.cultural shift by all of the players, at local level, suddenly
:37:53. > :37:59.working hand-in-hand with people you did not used to before. Particularly
:38:00. > :38:03.at political level where members of Parliament, secretaries of state,
:38:04. > :38:16.they want to hang on to hang onto the glory. That is the story of
:38:17. > :38:20.British government. We do need that, the cultural point is
:38:21. > :38:24.important. A big part of the report is we need to look at the way staff
:38:25. > :38:29.are trained. If we can have some training where GPs, nurses and
:38:30. > :38:34.social care staff are trained together. Also, we have a proper
:38:35. > :38:40.focus on people helping people to help themselves. There is a lot more
:38:41. > :38:46.patience can do. Which hospitals are not geared up to do. Last Monday, I
:38:47. > :38:52.saw a 74-year-old woman doing her kidney dialysis at home, because she
:38:53. > :38:56.had specialist training from nurses. Her life had been
:38:57. > :39:00.transformed. Instead of going to hospital three times a week, she was
:39:01. > :39:07.at home. She said she did not think she could cope with machines, but
:39:08. > :39:13.with support, she can. Helping people to live the lives they want
:39:14. > :39:24.when they get older it is what it is about. Andy Burnham proposed a death
:39:25. > :39:30.tax on estates, is that ruled out? I think it was a really bad bit of
:39:31. > :39:34.politics just before the election, trying to get cross-party agreement.
:39:35. > :39:40.We will have to pay more for our care as we get older. What is the
:39:41. > :39:43.fairest way? To call something a death tax when actually many people
:39:44. > :39:50.were losing all of their homes already to pay for care. Has it been
:39:51. > :39:56.rolled out? We have not proposed it. I promise you, if we come up with
:39:57. > :40:01.any proposals on funding social care, you will be one of the first
:40:02. > :40:04.to know. We hold you to that promise.
:40:05. > :40:09.Regular viewers of this programme will know that Ed Miliband has been
:40:10. > :40:12.involved in a long struggle to alter the Labour Party's relationship with
:40:13. > :40:14.the trade unions. Well, the party approved changes to that
:40:15. > :40:18.relationship in a special conference over the weekend. Senior Labour
:40:19. > :40:20.figures have hailed it as the culmination of decades of attempted
:40:21. > :40:24.reform by successive Labour leaders. But, is that really the case? In a
:40:25. > :40:30.moment, we'll be talking to our guest of the day, Margaret Prosser,
:40:31. > :40:34.about that. But first, our reporter Alex Forsyth, has been delving into
:40:35. > :40:42.the archives of Labour's links with the unions.
:40:43. > :40:46.The clue is in the name, more than 100 years ago, the Labour party
:40:47. > :40:51.emerged from the need for a political voice for the working
:40:52. > :40:56.class. Its roots are buried deep in the trade union movement. Labour is
:40:57. > :41:01.the party of the future. In post-war Britain, while its fortunes waxed
:41:02. > :41:11.and waned, its union link remained strong. That -- but not entirely
:41:12. > :41:15.unchallenged. In the 1960s, a plan from the employment Secretary
:41:16. > :41:19.Barbara Castle to curb union power threatened a major party split. The
:41:20. > :41:25.trade unions themselves have been clamouring for years for collective
:41:26. > :41:30.bargaining to be underpinned more and more by the law. In the end,
:41:31. > :41:39.there was compromise. So came the era of the mighty barons. As ongoing
:41:40. > :41:46.strikes caused chaos in Britain, the public mood shifted. The trade union
:41:47. > :41:53.link became a liability. In 1981, a gang of four defected, claiming
:41:54. > :41:57.Labour had lurched to the left and yielded power to the unions. It was
:41:58. > :42:03.Margaret Thatcher who dared do what Labour leaders had not, she went
:42:04. > :42:07.head to head with the unions and eroded their industrial might. It
:42:08. > :42:12.led to Neil Kinnock and his effort to distance his party from the hard
:42:13. > :42:19.left. I am telling you, you cannot play politics with people 's jobs
:42:20. > :42:23.and people 's services. It was John Smith who first broke the power of
:42:24. > :42:32.the union block vote in 1993. The changes I propose today are vital.
:42:33. > :42:39.Then came Tony Blair who tore up old Labour's Constitution, ditching
:42:40. > :42:42.clause four, the commitment to the common ownership of the means of
:42:43. > :42:48.production. Now, forced to prove his
:42:49. > :42:52.leadership, Ed Miliband. Last weekend, he won backing for an end
:42:53. > :42:56.to the automatic affiliation of union members and introduced the one
:42:57. > :43:02.member, one-vote system, to elect a leaders. The biggest transfer of
:43:03. > :43:07.power to our members and supporters in the history of the Labour Party.
:43:08. > :43:11.He has been praised for finishing a job started long ago, but some say
:43:12. > :43:16.the reforms are not that radical, and could make labour more dependent
:43:17. > :43:19.on the unions, not least for their money.
:43:20. > :43:23.Our guest of the day, Margaret Prosser, is a former senior figure
:43:24. > :43:30.within the old T Union, and was also the Treasurer of the Labour
:43:31. > :43:37.Party. We used to go to the converse is on the Isle of Man. I spent my
:43:38. > :43:44.life going to conferences. And we're also joined by the Conservative MP
:43:45. > :43:50.Priti Patel. Welcome back. Are these changes as significant as being made
:43:51. > :43:54.out? They are, I think. I have been living this over the months. The
:43:55. > :44:02.person who put the report together, Lord Collins of Highbury, is my dear
:44:03. > :44:06.friend Ray Collins who spent time with me in the union. We have been
:44:07. > :44:20.discussing this for ages. One of the significant things is that, those
:44:21. > :44:24.members who agreed to be part of the political fundamental, and to be a
:44:25. > :44:29.supporter, their names will be part of the Labour Party database. The
:44:30. > :44:33.Labour Party will, for the first time, be able to communicate
:44:34. > :44:40.directly with those members rather than through the trades you. This is
:44:41. > :44:47.how the unions had dealt with it. Transparency is very welcome. An
:44:48. > :44:50.example of union power being reduced within the Labour Party.
:44:51. > :44:55.Effectively, Ed Miliband has a problem, not just the link but the
:44:56. > :45:00.natural dependency with the trades unions. There has been plenty of
:45:01. > :45:05.commentary at the weekend where the union leadership, Len McCluskey,
:45:06. > :45:10.they are basically saying they are still in charge, in control. They
:45:11. > :45:18.will be making it a transactional relationship.
:45:19. > :45:26.That has always been their argument, but it has not always work out that
:45:27. > :45:31.way. They are saying they are very happy with the reforms. They claim
:45:32. > :45:36.it gives them more power, more strength and decision making and it
:45:37. > :45:41.is all about financial leverage when it comes to policy-making that is
:45:42. > :45:46.critical. I think they are putting a brave face on it. I do not think
:45:47. > :45:52.they are happy at all. They cannot say, no, we are not in favour of
:45:53. > :45:57.these changes, because that makes them look and democratic and
:45:58. > :46:02.dismissive of their membership. They have had to go along with it. I tell
:46:03. > :46:08.you what the next step will be, and the unions will cloud me for this,
:46:09. > :46:14.but if you go back to 1980s there were over 50 trade unions affiliated
:46:15. > :46:22.to the party. By 1990 it was 30 and now it is ten. What does that mean?
:46:23. > :46:25.That means the nuances of different interests and concerns and
:46:26. > :46:29.experiences around the trade union movement have been reduced and
:46:30. > :46:35.reduced and that cannot be healthy. I think what has happened so far
:46:36. > :46:41.with these latest changes is hugely important, but somehow something has
:46:42. > :46:47.to be done about the reduced numbers of voices around the table. Labour
:46:48. > :46:52.is making changes. It is going to depend more on individual membership
:46:53. > :46:56.and unions signing people up. It may cause them problems with money
:46:57. > :47:01.because they are not going to get the money handed over every year in
:47:02. > :47:04.affiliation. There may be more to do, but shouldn't the pressure now
:47:05. > :47:11.come on the Tories to clean up their act when it comes to party funding?
:47:12. > :47:17.I do not think that is what this is about. The reality is we are living
:47:18. > :47:21.in an anti-politics age anyway, the public are quite disenfranchised
:47:22. > :47:25.with political parties. We are talking about the unions and it is
:47:26. > :47:30.clear that the Labour leadership have got very strong links with the
:47:31. > :47:35.Labour unions. But at the same time it is incumbent from all political
:47:36. > :47:40.parties, and my party is very broad in our membership and we are very
:47:41. > :47:46.diverse in the way we select our candidates, I was selected to an
:47:47. > :47:52.open primary vote. But we do not rely on a block for funding. We rely
:47:53. > :47:58.on a lot of people who donate across the country. It is not a handful of
:47:59. > :48:04.donors. Rose coloured spectacles you have on I do feel. You may have a
:48:05. > :48:07.large number of people giving money but they are almost all from the
:48:08. > :48:16.same class, it is almost all business. Do not pretend that you
:48:17. > :48:22.have got a wide variety. We do have. Your membership has gone down faster
:48:23. > :48:29.than any political party. And so it has for all political parties, but
:48:30. > :48:37.that does not mean we are not getting a new diverse group of
:48:38. > :48:44.people. I don't know where to start. Let me start this way, how can you
:48:45. > :48:48.claim to be a broadly based party in terms of social diversity when five
:48:49. > :48:52.of the six people who are drying up the next manifesto all went to the
:48:53. > :48:58.same school and it was not comprehensive. The one who did not
:48:59. > :49:02.go to Eta went to Saint Pauls. That is categorically not true. I am
:49:03. > :49:14.sitting here today as a member of the manifesto commission. But you
:49:15. > :49:18.are not part of David's cronies. We are engaging our parliamentarians
:49:19. > :49:22.and our party at large when it comes to the manifesto and the type of
:49:23. > :49:28.manifesto. I am scripting some papers, I can tell you that now. You
:49:29. > :49:34.say you take money from diverse groups and it is true there has been
:49:35. > :49:38.much criticism of the union dependency of the Labour Party, but
:49:39. > :49:44.that is a transparent arrangement. We can see that and we can hold them
:49:45. > :49:49.to account. I have interviewed Len McCluskey, the head of the GMB and
:49:50. > :49:54.Labour politicians. I have never managed to interview one of the huge
:49:55. > :50:00.hedge fund owners that your party depends on. They are not transparent
:50:01. > :50:05.and told themselves to account. They are old transparent and they are all
:50:06. > :50:12.registered. They do not give themselves up in the wake trade
:50:13. > :50:18.union leaders do. They have to get on with the business of what they
:50:19. > :50:23.are doing. A number of them came from health interests and they got
:50:24. > :50:30.contracts from the health service. That is a massive generalisation. We
:50:31. > :50:35.have a range of donors. We have a range of donors to our political
:50:36. > :50:39.party and they are all registered. But they do not hold themselves
:50:40. > :50:45.accountable like trade union leaders. They do not buy party
:50:46. > :50:50.policy and they do not buy leadership. That is ridiculous.
:50:51. > :50:58.Since when did Labour produce the kind of stuff the trade unions are
:50:59. > :51:06.calling for? Tony Blair ignored the trade unions. To his credit, but
:51:07. > :51:10.this is Ed Miliband. The reason we are discussing this is because Ed
:51:11. > :51:18.Miliband recognises the nature of the relationship between the party
:51:19. > :51:26.and the unions has to move forward. If Ed Miliband does stand up to the
:51:27. > :51:30.unions, I do not think he will when you have Len McCluskey and the union
:51:31. > :51:39.leaders. They are all on the record being quoted. That I had the donors
:51:40. > :51:44.that you have on the record? A lot of what Len McCluskey would like as
:51:45. > :51:50.party policy is not party policy. If you could get me an interview with
:51:51. > :51:59.one of your million pound hedge fund donators... I don't even know them.
:52:00. > :52:08.You do. If it is as transparent as you say it is, you should know them.
:52:09. > :52:12.This is not the end of the process. It is going to continue. The whole
:52:13. > :52:18.purpose of the continuation is to make the thing as transparent as
:52:19. > :52:23.possible and to make people who are part of working in England, part of
:52:24. > :52:26.working in the UK, they feel they have some mechanism to influence
:52:27. > :52:34.what is going on in the political field and that is the path. This is
:52:35. > :52:44.not a good year to say England. I realise that. Earlier we discussed
:52:45. > :52:49.the situation in Ukraine. The American Secretary of State John
:52:50. > :52:51.Kerry has arrived in Kiev. In the last few minutes the Foreign
:52:52. > :52:59.Secretary William Hague has made a statement. Her Majesty's Government
:53:00. > :53:14.condemns any violation of the sovereignty and territorial
:53:15. > :53:18.integrity of Ukraine. Under that agreement Russia is entitled to
:53:19. > :53:23.station troops and naval personnel on its bases in Crimea, but not to
:53:24. > :53:28.deploy troops outside those bases without the permission of the
:53:29. > :53:33.Ukrainian Government. Russia's actions are in breach of the
:53:34. > :53:38.Budapest memorandum signed in 1994 in return for Ukraine giving up its
:53:39. > :53:43.nuclear weapons. Russia joined the United Kingdom and the United States
:53:44. > :53:48.in reaffirming their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of
:53:49. > :53:52.force against the territorial integrity or political independence
:53:53. > :53:56.of Ukraine and it went on that none of their weapons would ever be used
:53:57. > :54:01.against Ukraine except in self defence or otherwise in accordance
:54:02. > :54:04.with the Charter of the United Nations. The Russian Government has
:54:05. > :54:09.argued there is no legitimate Government in Kiev, that the
:54:10. > :54:13.incumbent president abandoned his post, and the subsequent decisions
:54:14. > :54:21.of the Ukrainian parliament have been carried by a large majority,
:54:22. > :54:26.required under the Constitution, and the suggestion that a president who
:54:27. > :54:30.has fled his country then has any authority whatsoever to invite the
:54:31. > :54:37.forces of a neighbouring country into that country is baseless.
:54:38. > :54:43.Russia has also argued that Russian speaking minorities in Ukraine are
:54:44. > :54:47.in danger, but no evidence of that threat has been presented.
:54:48. > :54:53.International diplomatic mechanisms exist to provide assurance on the
:54:54. > :54:57.situation of minorities, including within the organisation for Security
:54:58. > :55:02.and co-operation in Europe. These mechanisms are the way to secure
:55:03. > :55:05.assurances of the protection of the rights of minorities, not the
:55:06. > :55:12.breaking of international agreements and the use of armed force. The
:55:13. > :55:17.latest British Government position. As you know it is showed Tuesday
:55:18. > :55:22.today. I expect you have been making your batter and squeezing your
:55:23. > :55:28.lemons for hours! MPs have been limbering up and flipping pancakes
:55:29. > :55:38.in the annual charity pancake race. We sent stars along to see who won.
:55:39. > :55:45.What a way to lift the winter blues on a Tuesday in Westminster with the
:55:46. > :55:48.flower of Parliament excitingly waiting. Parliamentarians have
:55:49. > :55:55.always been accused of crossing the line, but this morning it is the
:55:56. > :56:00.pancake race, to see who can flip a pancake and run around a park best.
:56:01. > :56:12.God bless them all. The MPs were very confident. We do not talk about
:56:13. > :56:18.flipping. The press always turn up to see this, but every year they
:56:19. > :56:24.also take part, although some were trying to hire replacement runners.
:56:25. > :56:45.Is Carol there because she is fast? Suddenly it was all toss and go.
:56:46. > :56:55.There we are, the Lords were victorious. The MPs were trailing
:56:56. > :57:04.behind and the press were just a bit cold. We are joined now by Tracey
:57:05. > :57:10.Crouch, a Conservative MP and was part of the MPs pancake race team.
:57:11. > :57:20.The Lords won? Let's be clear, they cheated. How did they do that? The
:57:21. > :57:26.Lord at the front of the race had a pancake in his hat. If you dropped a
:57:27. > :57:31.pancake, you have to pick it up. So he whipped it out of his hat? Has
:57:32. > :57:39.there been a stewards enquiry? We need a judge led, independent
:57:40. > :57:43.enquiry. I think we are running out of judges. And the journalists came
:57:44. > :57:50.third. It was a dreadful performance. The MPs have won the
:57:51. > :57:54.pancake race two years in a row and we were going for the hat-trick and
:57:55. > :58:04.we came a very close second, but it has all been done in a good cause.
:58:05. > :58:07.Tell me the charity. Rehab do a lot of work for people with physical
:58:08. > :58:11.disabilities and mental disabilities and we talk about these things in
:58:12. > :58:17.parliament, but they do not get the media coverage they deserve. If we
:58:18. > :58:24.have to run around, tossing pancakes to raise awareness, then so be it.
:58:25. > :58:28.Have you thought of doing this? I have been asked many times. I
:58:29. > :58:38.noticed there were a lot of blokes there. There are a lot of blokes. Do
:58:39. > :58:45.you get Pete the pancake at the end? I don't think you want to, it has
:58:46. > :58:52.been dropped so many times. That is it for the day. Thank you to all my
:58:53. > :59:00.guests. We will be here tomorrow at 11:30am with Prime Minister 's
:59:01. > :59:05.questions. I hope you can join us at 11:30am. Goodbye.