:00:49. > :00:51.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:52. > :00:55.The Lib Dems meet to prepare for local and European elections - are
:00:56. > :00:58.they in danger of being wiped out in that contest and becoming the fourth
:00:59. > :01:02.party in British politics? The big Clegg - Farage bout is on. We'll
:01:03. > :01:04.preview what could be the bloodiest debate of the political year.
:01:05. > :01:08.The glitterati of centre-right European politics descend on Dublin
:01:09. > :01:12.to pick the man they want to take the EU's top job - but David Cameron
:01:13. > :01:15.won't be there. We'll tell you what we're missing out on. There is a
:01:16. > :01:18.headline that says I will be the first singing black Prime Minister.
:01:19. > :01:21.And he's been dubbed "the singing politician" by sir Tom Jones - we
:01:22. > :01:31.talk to Jermain Jackman from The Voice.
:01:32. > :01:34.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,
:01:35. > :01:38.two journalists who we'd all turn for - the Editor of the Spectator,
:01:39. > :01:41.Fraser Nelson and the Guardian's Zoe Williams. Welcome to the programme.
:01:42. > :01:43.Let's start with the latest disturbing revelations about the
:01:44. > :01:46.Metropolitan Police's investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence
:01:47. > :01:50.21 years ago now. The Home Secretary has announced a new public inquiry
:01:51. > :01:53.after is it was revealed that the Met spied on the Lawrence family in
:01:54. > :01:56.an attempt to "smear them" and withheld information from the
:01:57. > :02:02.Macpherson inquiry that may have revealed that one of the
:02:03. > :02:05.investigating officers was corrupt. In an emotional speech in the House
:02:06. > :02:09.of Lords, Stephen's mother, Doreen Lawrence - who is now a Labour Peer
:02:10. > :02:18.- thanked Home Secretary Theresa May for setting up the review. I think
:02:19. > :02:22.when we embarked on the corruption case, I knew there was always
:02:23. > :02:27.something and it was through difficult to convince other people
:02:28. > :02:32.around me, especially other police officers. And even at times, the
:02:33. > :02:39.Home Secretary, that I believed there was corruption at the start of
:02:40. > :02:43.Stephen's case. It has taken over a year for that, but it has taken
:02:44. > :02:54.nearly 21 years since Stephen has been killed. The fact that he is our
:02:55. > :02:59.family... -- our family had to go through all this, and still there is
:03:00. > :03:04.more to come out. An emotional Doreen Lawrence. Which of these
:03:05. > :03:09.dreadful revelations is the most shocking? It is really hard to save
:03:10. > :03:13.or that she is such a moving speaker. It is impossible to watch
:03:14. > :03:17.her without feeling what she is feeling. The police have never
:03:18. > :03:20.covered themselves in glory with this. It would have been bad enough
:03:21. > :03:25.if we were dealing with incompetence. The thing is that
:03:26. > :03:29.since the MacPherson import, there have been so many revelations
:03:30. > :03:36.surrounding that -- the Macpherson report. The stuff around the
:03:37. > :03:43.infiltration of groups, the stuff around going after law-abiding
:03:44. > :03:49.citizens to no obvious purpose. As she said, this isn't that much of a
:03:50. > :03:52.surprise. Were you that shocked? I actually was that shocked, to find
:03:53. > :03:59.out the police had been putting spy not only in their camp but that this
:04:00. > :04:02.unit was involved in more cases that may result in miscarriages of
:04:03. > :04:07.justice, that was the most shocking thing, the idea that we could have
:04:08. > :04:10.criminal cases where there could be a miscarriage of justice because the
:04:11. > :04:15.police were hiding the facts of what their spies were up to. They have
:04:16. > :04:19.had spies imperfectly legitimate environmental groups, and our kick
:04:20. > :04:22.groups that were just politically experimenting, and we have known
:04:23. > :04:27.about that for a couple of years. I think in a way, the shock has been
:04:28. > :04:32.that we haven't taken seriously the infiltration generally. Because it
:04:33. > :04:37.has never been OK for the police to act like that. I would disagree, I
:04:38. > :04:40.think in some circumstances it is necessary for the police to put
:04:41. > :04:48.spies in certain camps. Environmental camps? Especially!
:04:49. > :04:54.What is shocking is that they were keeping the secret internally. I
:04:55. > :04:57.think if you have a culture of being allowed to use spies wherever you
:04:58. > :05:01.like without discretion, of course you will end up covering it up. I am
:05:02. > :05:08.not at all surprised about the cover-ups. Is that really the part
:05:09. > :05:12.that is going to injure, as far as the Met's reputation is concerned?
:05:13. > :05:16.That they withheld information and blocked the Macpherson inquiry, and
:05:17. > :05:21.it is going to keep tripping out until it is all out there? --
:05:22. > :05:26.dripping out. It is difficult to tell between deliberate secrecy and
:05:27. > :05:29.incompetence with the police. When you listen to stories about spies
:05:30. > :05:34.coming back in, having been embedded for years with groups, they would
:05:35. > :05:38.come back in and managers wouldn't even know who they were. There is an
:05:39. > :05:48.argument about whether some is justifiable and some is not, and the
:05:49. > :05:51.STS has now been disbanded -- the SDS has been disbanded. What will a
:05:52. > :05:59.public inquiry do, is it the right thing? I think it is, this has been
:06:00. > :06:02.going on for years. What else were the SDS involved in, where were the
:06:03. > :06:06.miscarriages of justice? This needs to be investigated to the end, until
:06:07. > :06:11.we know which other cases could have been corrupted or compromised. One
:06:12. > :06:17.of the other things Doreen Lawrence said is that you still can't trust
:06:18. > :06:22.them, trust and confidence in the Met is going to go right down. She
:06:23. > :06:27.feels the religion chip has not changed, do you think it is true --
:06:28. > :06:31.the relationship. How big a problem is it, the constant denting public
:06:32. > :06:36.trust, Hillsborough, plebgate, this... There is still a huge
:06:37. > :06:41.problem with racism in the police. If you look at what the Duggan
:06:42. > :06:47.family say about the experience of being a young black man who hasn't
:06:48. > :06:53.done anything... On his way to buy a gun. Distinct from Mark Duggan, in
:06:54. > :06:59.the life that you live, the number of times you are harassed and
:07:00. > :07:04.hassled by the police... I didn't phrase it very well. But there is
:07:05. > :07:08.still a huge problem of racism that comes up again and again and nothing
:07:09. > :07:12.will go away until that goes away. Now - the Lib Dems meet in York this
:07:13. > :07:15.afternoon for their Spring Conference where their minds will be
:07:16. > :07:18.focussed on May's local and European elections. The party president, Tim
:07:19. > :07:21.Farron, has warned that the party could be wiped out in those
:07:22. > :07:24.elections. There's probably a bit of expectation management there, but
:07:25. > :07:28.with ministers in Government they are no longer attracting the protest
:07:29. > :07:32.vote. So what's the future for a party that's now regularly coming
:07:33. > :07:41.fourth in the polls behind UKIP. Here's Alex Forsyth.
:07:42. > :07:47.I declare that David is duly elected member of Parliament for the
:07:48. > :07:52.Eastleigh constituency. It is 1994 and in the background, a freshfaced
:07:53. > :07:55.Nigel Farage in UKIP's first-ever attempt to win a Parliamentary seat.
:07:56. > :08:00.This was an Eastleigh by-election, the Lib Dems won, UKIP polled
:08:01. > :08:06.pulley. Fast forward to last year, another by-election in Eastleigh,
:08:07. > :08:10.again the Lib Dems won but this time their vote plummeted and UKIP
:08:11. > :08:16.finished a close second. This Lib Dem stronghold might not seem the
:08:17. > :08:19.natural place for a UKIP charge, but in a railway town with industrial
:08:20. > :08:24.roots, they appeal to the common man. They are saying what people
:08:25. > :08:28.want, are the people are not doing it. They are good, I can't think of
:08:29. > :08:34.the guys name but he is a really nice guy. UKIP claim they are on
:08:35. > :08:41.track for some good results while Lib Dems support is heading for the
:08:42. > :08:43.buffers. Click finish the Liberal Democrat -- Nick Clegg finished the
:08:44. > :08:46.Liberal Democrats off when he stood in the Rose Garden. Nobody trust
:08:47. > :08:55.them. If you vote Liberal Democrat, you made get Labour or Conservative.
:08:56. > :09:00.Edge you may get. UKIP's anti-immigration message is popular.
:09:01. > :09:06.Does the distant relative of Guy Fawkes share his ancestor's
:09:07. > :09:11.ambitions for Parliament? I would rather achieve our goal peacefully
:09:12. > :09:16.rather than exploding onto the scene! This leaked Lib Dem briefing
:09:17. > :09:22.tells candidates how to handle UKIP voters, including the advice, don't
:09:23. > :09:26.panic. This illusion Lib Dems don't naturally migrate to UKIP, but Nigel
:09:27. > :09:31.Farage is scooping up the protest vote now Nick Clegg's party is in
:09:32. > :09:34.government. In places like Eastleigh, where there is a familiar
:09:35. > :09:38.incumbent MP, a good local support network, the Lib Dems will fight
:09:39. > :09:42.hard to hold onto Westminster seats and they might just do it, but when
:09:43. > :09:46.it comes to the European elections it'll be much harder. There is a
:09:47. > :09:52.real risk to the party that in euros, we could end up with zero
:09:53. > :09:55.MEP. I don't think it will happen but I think you will find the Lib
:09:56. > :09:59.Dems are a bit nervous about making sure we work our socks off over the
:10:00. > :10:04.next couple of months to make sure it doesn't happen in reality. Much
:10:05. > :10:07.of that work will fall to town hall activists will stop they are
:10:08. > :10:12.confident about the future but accept there may be unwelcome
:10:13. > :10:15.results in the European elections. The general election will be very
:10:16. > :10:19.difficult for the Liberal Democrats in 2015 compared to 2010, because we
:10:20. > :10:26.have a record of government to do different. That can be an advantage.
:10:27. > :10:28.The party will be hard pushed to convince everyone their spelling
:10:29. > :10:31.government has been a vote winner. They have some hard work to do to
:10:32. > :10:37.turn around their fortunes. And we're joined now by Lib Dem
:10:38. > :10:41.Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Welcome to the programme. Let's pick up on
:10:42. > :10:46.those concerns. The possibility of wipe-out in the European elections,
:10:47. > :10:48.do you share that fear? We can fourth in the last European
:10:49. > :10:53.elections, it is worth remembering that, it was not a great result. We
:10:54. > :10:56.went on to derision well at the general election and entered
:10:57. > :10:59.government for the first time for 90 years -- went on to do really well
:11:00. > :11:05.at the general election. I think we could do quite well at the European
:11:06. > :11:11.elections. Based on a positive agenda. We are going to fight, as
:11:12. > :11:14.the only party of in. I respect UKIP, partly because they have a
:11:15. > :11:17.clear position. They want to be out of the European Union, we are the
:11:18. > :11:25.only party who are saying, we are the party of in. We are -- the
:11:26. > :11:32.Tories are divided and Labour are remarkably silent. I think people
:11:33. > :11:36.who believe in Britain's membership of the European Union, and there are
:11:37. > :11:38.millions of them, if they see an election debate where the Liberal
:11:39. > :11:43.Democrats are championing our membership, I think we can attract
:11:44. > :11:47.more voters. The problem is, will they vote? You seem to concede that
:11:48. > :11:52.if you come forth it is not such a big deal. Are you accepting it is a
:11:53. > :12:00.real possibility? The polls bear it out. I hope we don't. Of course. It
:12:01. > :12:05.happened last time so there is clearly a possibility. Last time, we
:12:06. > :12:08.went on to have a really good general election result. I suppose
:12:09. > :12:11.we are looking at a slightly different position. You're going to
:12:12. > :12:15.be defending your record in government, it may be a good or bad
:12:16. > :12:19.thing. You have lost eight of 15 deposits in by-elections since the
:12:20. > :12:26.coalition came to power, you could argue you are corrupting Elektra
:12:27. > :12:33.Lee. -- electorally. We won the Eastleigh by-election despite a UKIP
:12:34. > :12:39.surge. If you look at our record in government, the ?10,000 tax free
:12:40. > :12:43.that we have achieved this April has taken 3 million of the lowest paid
:12:44. > :12:47.out of income tax, delivering a ?700 a year tax cut for them that was in
:12:48. > :12:51.our manifesto, not the Conservatives' and not supported by
:12:52. > :12:56.Labour. Liberal Democrats have been part of turning around our economy
:12:57. > :12:59.so that we have more people in jobs. We have a proud record of defending
:13:00. > :13:04.a strong economy and a fairer society. It is not coming through in
:13:05. > :13:07.the polls, you must admit that. You can predict it may change in a
:13:08. > :13:11.general election but the Europeans are coming first. If you were to
:13:12. > :13:17.lose, let's say, the majority of your MEPs, morale would sink ever
:13:18. > :13:21.lower and there would be, do you accept, a sense of panic in the
:13:22. > :13:26.party, who have got to go out and campaign on those messages? If you
:13:27. > :13:30.look at the by-election results, I take Eastleigh, the document in that
:13:31. > :13:35.film saying campaigner should not panic when they come across a UKIP
:13:36. > :13:40.voter, even though many wars in VB riposte by their anti-Europeanism
:13:41. > :13:48.and racism, is that a fair statement -- many will be repulsed. UKIP do
:13:49. > :13:53.try to appeal to those tenses. The more that we were, knock on people
:13:54. > :13:57.'s doors, get our message over, the fact we have been part of turning
:13:58. > :14:01.the economy around, clearing up labour's mess, the fact we have
:14:02. > :14:06.helped to make a fairer society with the tax allowance, the increase in
:14:07. > :14:09.state pension, free school meals, a premium to help disadvantaged
:14:10. > :14:12.children, we have a strong record where we have delivered in
:14:13. > :14:17.government. People realise labour cannot be trusted on the economy.
:14:18. > :14:22.They caused the mess, they are going to the left. I accept that, it will
:14:23. > :14:28.be a different framework. That statement that has been produced by
:14:29. > :14:30.the Association of liberal Democrat councillors, would you be happy to
:14:31. > :14:37.put your name to that, even though many will be riposte by their
:14:38. > :14:43.anti-Europeanism and racism... It is clear they are an anti-European
:14:44. > :14:46.party. They have made their vision clear on Europe and in a way I
:14:47. > :14:51.respect them for having an anti-European position. Because they
:14:52. > :14:53.are very clear. I think the Tory Party are not clear on their
:14:54. > :14:59.position on Europe, I think Labour are very silent. In a European
:15:00. > :15:03.election, where we are debating the benefits of being in Europe, we
:15:04. > :15:10.think the benefits are about jobs, the 3 million jobs that depend on
:15:11. > :15:14.our membership. Do you think it is wise to have literature that says
:15:15. > :15:19.that you give voters are racist? Well, what we say in that leaflet,
:15:20. > :15:22.although I have not read it, is that clearly UKIP have sailed close to
:15:23. > :15:27.the wind on this issue, that is why they are rolling back. They are very
:15:28. > :15:32.defensive on that position, actually, if you listen to them. But
:15:33. > :15:35.I am really interested in the European election argument, that is
:15:36. > :15:41.what Nick Clegg will be debating with Nigel Farage, and he will focus
:15:42. > :15:46.on jobs, jobs, jobs. Listen, I don't know every single UKIP member. You
:15:47. > :15:51.obviously feel some of them could be racist, that is something you think
:15:52. > :15:55.comes across in the rhetoric. It is very clear that UKIP campaign on a
:15:56. > :15:58.very anti-European, anti-immigrant agenda. In the Eastleigh
:15:59. > :16:02.by-election, they were putting leaflets through doors implying that
:16:03. > :16:06.29 million Romanians were going to turn up in Britain, and that
:16:07. > :16:10.frightened people, it is scaremongering. They basically lied
:16:11. > :16:17.to people, and that is outrageous. What do you say to that? Let's not
:16:18. > :16:21.beat around the bush, some of them are racist, talking about Bongo
:16:22. > :16:24.Bongo Land is racist. We are so embarrassed about saying whether
:16:25. > :16:28.they are racist or not, of course you are allowed to say that people
:16:29. > :16:33.are if they go around using language like that. The Tories got into a
:16:34. > :16:38.mess calling them fruitcakes and loons. That was David Cameron, and
:16:39. > :16:41.he regrets that. He has learned what the Liberal Democrats have not,
:16:42. > :16:47.which is that you cannot insult voters. To claim that UKIP voters
:16:48. > :16:52.are racist, you may be repelled when you meet a UKIP voter, that sounds
:16:53. > :16:57.like a party which has a problem. The allegation is that if you bode
:16:58. > :17:04.UKIP, you must be racist - that is not how it works. -- vote. I went to
:17:05. > :17:09.Eastleigh for the by-election, and I was convinced UKIP would win, they
:17:10. > :17:16.almost did, because they were much more present than the Lib Dems. You
:17:17. > :17:22.cannot... UKIP make a lot of noise, but it does not necessarily mean a
:17:23. > :17:27.lot. Vince Cable says he is intensely relaxed about immigration,
:17:28. > :17:31.are you? We are debating it this weekend, and we need to be tough on
:17:32. > :17:35.immigration in the way that Labour was not. We want to restore entry
:17:36. > :17:40.and exit controls so we know people on limited visas have left. That is
:17:41. > :17:45.a tough position. We are wanting to increase the period they have to be
:17:46. > :17:50.here before they can claim benefits, but, and this is where I completely
:17:51. > :17:55.agree, if you look at the benefits of immigration to our economy and
:17:56. > :18:00.society, they are huge. We have 40,000, 40,000 doctors who are
:18:01. > :18:05.foreign-born in the NHS. Foreign students coming to the UK put ?13
:18:06. > :18:09.billion in our economy every year. That is a positive contribution to
:18:10. > :18:15.our society and our economy. Those parties who deny that, I think, are
:18:16. > :18:18.denying the facts. Nigel Farage claims that putting economic
:18:19. > :18:22.society, because there are plenty of statistics, surveys that look at the
:18:23. > :18:26.broad economic benefits, if not per head, then to the economy and GDP as
:18:27. > :18:31.a whole, but he said it would almost be worth, and I am paraphrasing,
:18:32. > :18:35.perhaps having slightly less GDP but the social impact is what really
:18:36. > :18:40.counts with the voters, that is what people want, more controlled
:18:41. > :18:45.immigration. I am not against controlling immigration, the Liberal
:18:46. > :18:48.Democrats want to restore the exit and entry controls that Labour got
:18:49. > :18:52.rid of. But I disagree with Mr Farage very strongly on the idea
:18:53. > :18:58.that immigration has a net benefit to our society. I think having other
:18:59. > :19:03.cultures here add something to the richness and diversity of British
:19:04. > :19:08.life. I will tell you what, the 1.4 million UK citizens working in other
:19:09. > :19:13.EU countries, and a lot of people living in other countries, would not
:19:14. > :19:16.welcome his approach. The net migration figure that the
:19:17. > :19:21.Conservatives wanted to bring down to tens of thousands by 2015, is it
:19:22. > :19:26.achievable? Well, it looks pretty tough. Almost impossible. One of the
:19:27. > :19:31.reasons we were advising against that approach was, for example, in
:19:32. > :19:35.the cap it includes student numbers, and one of the things that we are
:19:36. > :19:38.debating to be party policy at the next election is, if there is going
:19:39. > :19:43.to be a cap, that student numbers should be taken out of that cap.
:19:44. > :19:46.Students come and go, it seems rather odd, and that is one of the
:19:47. > :19:50.reasons why we are not going to hit the target. Would you have any
:19:51. > :19:56.target for net migration? We think there is a case for it, and we are
:19:57. > :19:59.going beyond having a target. What we are saying in our immigration
:20:00. > :20:03.policy debate this weekend is that there should be an annual debate, an
:20:04. > :20:08.annual debate in Parliament about the level of immigration, so much
:20:09. > :20:12.more transparency... By setting a level? One of the reasons why I
:20:13. > :20:15.think immigration has become this rather toxic issue in British
:20:16. > :20:20.politics is not simply UKIP, although it is part of the problem.
:20:21. > :20:23.The other reason is that people have lost trust in politicians.
:20:24. > :20:27.Politicians haven't taken on the debate, so by having an annual
:20:28. > :20:30.debate in Parliament, we think we could engage in the issues, the
:20:31. > :20:34.positive side of immigration which is often not heard stay with us.
:20:35. > :20:39.Ali versus Frazier, David versus Goliath, Frost versus Nixon, Luke
:20:40. > :20:42.Skywalker versus Darth Vader. A whole gamut there! It might not be
:20:43. > :20:47.up there with the Rumble in the jungle, but Westminster has been
:20:48. > :20:51.getting very excited at the prospect of Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage going
:20:52. > :20:55.head-to-head over Britain's future in the EU. Their television debate
:20:56. > :20:59.will be on BBC Two from 7pm on Wednesday the 2nd of April, but it
:21:00. > :21:03.in your diaries! And it will be hosted by David Dimbleby. They have
:21:04. > :21:08.been warming up for the bout this week, trading blows over how hard
:21:09. > :21:14.the other man works. UKIP leaders don't turn up to vote
:21:15. > :21:21.in the European Parliament most of the time. Nigel Farage hasn't tabled
:21:22. > :21:24.a single amendment, not a single amendment to the flow of legislation
:21:25. > :21:32.passing through the European Parliament since July 2009. They
:21:33. > :21:38.abstained, extraordinarily, for a party that claims to be in favour of
:21:39. > :21:44.wider and more open trade, they abstained on a vote on the EU-US
:21:45. > :21:49.trade agreement that is being thrashed out right now, which is
:21:50. > :21:56.worth up to ?10 billion a year to the British economy in the future.
:21:57. > :22:00.Since 2009, I have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament.
:22:01. > :22:07.They have all taken place in Strasbourg, so by combining getting
:22:08. > :22:11.to Strasbourg and running a major national political party, not an
:22:12. > :22:14.easy thing. Mr Clegg, who lives in London, has only taken part in 22%
:22:15. > :22:22.of the votes in the House of Commons. And we are joined now by
:22:23. > :22:26.Suzanne Evans from UKIP and Cabinet minister Ed Davey is still with us.
:22:27. > :22:31.Just before we get onto the debate, Suzanne Evans, I want to put to use
:22:32. > :22:37.some of the points made by Ed Davey. First of all, about that pamphlet,
:22:38. > :22:41.lab leaflet about being proposed by anti-Europeanism and racism, what do
:22:42. > :22:45.you say to that? I am really shocked at what I have heard. It has got the
:22:46. > :22:51.Darren Sammy ring about it, don't panic. Let me tell you something
:22:52. > :22:57.else, we have got you on the run. Your membership has fallen by
:22:58. > :23:02.500,000... It is increasing. We have got the Lib Dems on the run. Any
:23:03. > :23:05.time that anyone attacks UKIP for being racist, they attacked the
:23:06. > :23:10.voters who are coming to UKIP in droves. It is not racist to talk
:23:11. > :23:14.about immigration, it is not racist to want to have control of our
:23:15. > :23:17.borders. But is it scaremongering to talk about the figures that Nigel
:23:18. > :23:23.Farage and UKIP talked about in terms of the numbers of Romanians
:23:24. > :23:27.and Bulgarians? Absolutely not, because Nigel Farage has been
:23:28. > :23:32.repeatedly misquoted on this. It was your leaflet. The leaflet said that
:23:33. > :23:37.they could come to the UK, that is practical. We never said they would.
:23:38. > :23:42.The whole of Romania comes to the UK, come on! What about immigration
:23:43. > :23:47.in general? Have you been scaremongering on immigration as a
:23:48. > :23:51.topic you might I don't think we have, and the other parties have
:23:52. > :23:55.refused to tackle the issue. For years, the Labour Party shuts down
:23:56. > :23:58.any discussion of immigration by calling it racist. The Conservative
:23:59. > :24:02.Party did not have the guts to talk about it, which is one of the main
:24:03. > :24:06.concern is that voters have. The fact is that the Liberal party, the
:24:07. > :24:11.Labour Party, the Conservative Party all have the same rhetoric on
:24:12. > :24:18.immigration, and on the EU. They are all out to get us, scraping the
:24:19. > :24:20.barrel. Look at Robert Halfon MP taking terrible smears. We are not
:24:21. > :24:23.going to stand for that, and on March the 29th we will be in his
:24:24. > :24:28.constituency having an action day, and we will be saying, if you love
:24:29. > :24:33.Britain and if you love are low, vote UKIP. It is interesting that
:24:34. > :24:37.most of the polls have been talking about immigration, espousing the
:24:38. > :24:41.benefits of immigration and immigrant labour, and that future
:24:42. > :24:46.growth to some extent is being linked with still having a fairly
:24:47. > :24:52.open policy and welcoming foreign labour. UKIP is not
:24:53. > :24:56.anti-immigration. UKIP is very much pro-immigration on a points based
:24:57. > :25:00.system, such as we have in Australia, where we can welcome
:25:01. > :25:04.people into the UK who wants to contribute, and again it is a way in
:25:05. > :25:08.which we have been grossly misrepresented. Getting onto the
:25:09. > :25:12.debate, Nigel Farage has said he had no choice but to accept Nick
:25:13. > :25:17.Clegg's offer, was there a moment of doubt in his mind? No! More chance
:25:18. > :25:21.of finding a snowflake on the sundown him turning down the
:25:22. > :25:25.opportunity, as he said. Nick Clegg is putting himself into the lion's
:25:26. > :25:29.den, the question is, will he get out alive? They are both good
:25:30. > :25:34.orators, but if I am hearing the sort of things Ed Davey is talking
:25:35. > :25:37.about, if Nick Clegg repeats that, Nigel Farage will have no problem
:25:38. > :25:42.knocking him down. Does it mean accepting a debate with Nick Clegg,
:25:43. > :25:46.that Nigel Farage has accepted he will not be part of a prime
:25:47. > :25:53.ministerial debate? I don't think so, and we have had the Ofcom
:25:54. > :25:56.ruling... He is still trying? He would still very much like to be in
:25:57. > :25:59.that debate. But he has accepted it will not happen, so this is is best
:26:00. > :26:05.chance at a debate with a party leader? I think the public will
:26:06. > :26:09.rightly question in 2015, if Nigel Farage is not part of the national
:26:10. > :26:16.debates with the other two party leaders, the voters will not stand
:26:17. > :26:20.for it. The Lib Dems last night did appallingly badly in the Nottingham
:26:21. > :26:26.by-election, bus pass Elvis did better! UKIP is the third party of
:26:27. > :26:30.Britain now, we should be in that debate. Simon Hughes has said it
:26:31. > :26:33.will be a tough gig, no doubt that Nick Clegg is an expert on all
:26:34. > :26:40.things European. Is it a high rick strategy for him? I don't think so,
:26:41. > :26:44.we are proud to be the party of income they are happy to be out, so
:26:45. > :26:49.it is good for the electorate that they have clear choice. I think Nick
:26:50. > :26:52.Clegg will talk about the jobs we would lose if we pulled out of
:26:53. > :26:57.Europe, and there will be a lot of talk about the crime is you. Because
:26:58. > :27:01.of our co-operation with Europol, because of the European arrest
:27:02. > :27:07.warrant, serious criminals, drug traffickers, terrorists, murderers,
:27:08. > :27:13.rapists, human traffickers, are caught. By pulling out of Europe, as
:27:14. > :27:16.UKIP wants to do, our streets in Britain would be less safe and
:27:17. > :27:20.secure, that is a dangerous strategy. It is interesting you
:27:21. > :27:23.should mention human trafficking, because I was at a meeting talking
:27:24. > :27:27.about this last night, and the open borders that we have within the EU
:27:28. > :27:31.make it much, much easier for women in particular to be sold into
:27:32. > :27:39.slavery in this country, and that disgusts me. We need to take control
:27:40. > :27:41.of our borders, not just to stop criminals coming in, but to protect
:27:42. > :27:45.women. But do you agree that you have to cooperate with other
:27:46. > :27:49.countries? There are other ways of cooperating over crime. How do you
:27:50. > :27:52.think the debate will go? It is really interesting, because one of
:27:53. > :27:55.the things about having Nick Clegg in the leadership debate was that
:27:56. > :28:00.everybody was falling over themselves to agree with him, and
:28:01. > :28:02.that in a way, I think, we went into the last election thinking all of
:28:03. > :28:06.the parties were much more similar than they were, so I am looking
:28:07. > :28:12.forward to this, because it actually gives both of them... They are both
:28:13. > :28:16.poised to be purely oppositional, and I think they will make a better
:28:17. > :28:22.account of themselves. Do you agree? Is it a win-win for both? I think
:28:23. > :28:25.Nick Clegg thinks is Thursday morning phone-ins on LBC have
:28:26. > :28:30.prepared him for this. Have they not? They are not prepared him for
:28:31. > :28:36.Nigel Farage. These politics is on a different wavelength to the three
:28:37. > :28:41.Westminster parties. The kinds of lines of argument that UKIP has not
:28:42. > :28:48.what Westminster leaders are used to dealing with, and that is partly
:28:49. > :28:51.why... I think you are right, because people have not put Nigel
:28:52. > :28:56.Farage and UKIP on the spot. Going back to the EU immigration, the fact
:28:57. > :29:02.is there are 1.4 million UK citizens working in other EU countries,
:29:03. > :29:09.almost as many as working in the UK. There are 1 million British citizens
:29:10. > :29:12.living in Spain. I am not suggesting that they would all have to come
:29:13. > :29:16.back, of course not, but their rights and the support they get
:29:17. > :29:22.would be reduced if we pulled out of the EU. I think that is the sort of
:29:23. > :29:25.fact we need to get on the table. We have got a Westminster compact where
:29:26. > :29:29.everybody agrees on immigration for certain reasons, because they bring
:29:30. > :29:34.in this much GDP, they take out benefits, because blah, blah...
:29:35. > :29:39.Doctors! It is all money on the table, money brought in, and UKIP,
:29:40. > :29:43.like many on the left, think about things differently. On the left, we
:29:44. > :29:48.would say that people are not just units of sale, let's talk about what
:29:49. > :29:53.people bring in as people, and their essential virtues as people. It
:29:54. > :29:56.might surprise you, but that is UKIP policy as well, that is not the
:29:57. > :30:01.prerogative of the left, that is our view that you have just exposed.
:30:02. > :30:05.What do you say to Michael Heseltine, who says it is a
:30:06. > :30:09.misjudgement of Nick Clegg to enter into this, to equate the leadership
:30:10. > :30:14.of a party of government with a protest group? We are not a protest
:30:15. > :30:18.group, that is quite clear, we are consistently polling a third,
:30:19. > :30:21.gaining members rapidly. We have gone far beyond a protest group now,
:30:22. > :30:24.to the point where everyone is saying if we come second in the
:30:25. > :30:31.European elections, we will have failed, which is quite ridiculous.
:30:32. > :30:35.Just to remind you the BBC is hosting the TV debate between Nick
:30:36. > :30:38.Clegg and Nigel Farage on BBC Two from 7:00pm on Wednesday second
:30:39. > :30:41.April. It's been described by one
:30:42. > :30:45.commentator as the most "stupid, intellectually bankrupt and vacuous
:30:46. > :30:48.address of the year". Immigration Minister James Brokenshire's speech
:30:49. > :30:51.yesterday has certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons, and forced a
:30:52. > :30:52.number of politicians to prepare themselves for journalist's tricky
:30:53. > :31:02.questions about who they employ. Mr Brokenshire argued that
:31:03. > :31:05.immigration favours the metropolitan elite, not ordinary British
:31:06. > :31:07.citizens, and he set his sights on the Liberal Democrat Business
:31:08. > :31:12.Secretary, Vince Cable, claiming his views on migration are plain wrong.
:31:13. > :31:19.Naturally Mr Cable hasn't been shy to respond. Here's a flavour of what
:31:20. > :31:27.they've both had to say. For too long, the benefits of immigration
:31:28. > :31:31.went to employers who wanted an easy supply of cheap labour, or to the
:31:32. > :31:35.wealthy metropolitan elite who wanted cheap tradesmen and
:31:36. > :31:39.services, but not to the ordinary hard-working people of this country.
:31:40. > :31:43.I think this stuff about metropolitan elite is way off the
:31:44. > :31:47.mark. Most people in this country benefit from services like the NHS,
:31:48. > :31:54.public transport, catering, in which migrant workers are. This is not
:31:55. > :31:56.just the metropolitan issue. And Simon Walker of the business
:31:57. > :32:01.lobby group, the Institute of Drectors, joins us now. Welcome to
:32:02. > :32:11.the programme. Are you a of the metropolitan elite that James broken
:32:12. > :32:14.-- he referred to. Perhaps I am, I suddenly lived in west London. The
:32:15. > :32:19.fact is one in seven businesses have been set up why migrants who have
:32:20. > :32:25.come here to create businesses around the country. Nigel Farage
:32:26. > :32:30.acknowledges that economic growth will fall if you cut immigration.
:32:31. > :32:35.Our members say immigrants bring skills and bring motivation to this
:32:36. > :32:40.country which is very necessary. What was your response to that
:32:41. > :32:46.speech? We said it was feeble and pathetic. We thought it was unwise
:32:47. > :32:51.of politicians to stoke up feelings about this. It is time people start
:32:52. > :32:56.telling the truth in the dog and duck, which is that immigrants bring
:32:57. > :33:01.benefits to this community. They take fewer benefits away from it in
:33:02. > :33:06.terms of benefits provided by the state. They are net contributors to
:33:07. > :33:10.the British economy. For those who are trying to get low skilled,
:33:11. > :33:14.low-paid jobs, there is very strong anecdotal evidence to say that they
:33:15. > :33:18.are up against fierce competition from relatively cheap foreign
:33:19. > :33:22.labour. I don't know if that really is the problem. I think a big part
:33:23. > :33:28.of the problem is benefits system, which makes it a rational choice not
:33:29. > :33:35.to work. Because people would be facing a 90% marginal tax rate if
:33:36. > :33:38.they were to go into work, instead of drawing benefits. It is a fault
:33:39. > :33:43.in the benefit system in this country. I really dispute that. The
:33:44. > :33:48.fact is most people in poverty have at least one working member in their
:33:49. > :33:54.household and many people have two working people in their house. He is
:33:55. > :33:59.talking about people on the dole. When we talk about people on low
:34:00. > :34:02.wages with housing problems who reputedly object the most
:34:03. > :34:06.immigration, their real problem is they have housing problems and
:34:07. > :34:09.weight problems. Their wages don't cover their housing, they can't get
:34:10. > :34:14.a decent house, UKIP say it is because of immigrants. -- and wage
:34:15. > :34:23.problems. You have white ring -- you have right-wing parties
:34:24. > :34:28.presenting immigration of as the problem when it is not the real
:34:29. > :34:31.problem. I am in favour of immigration, one of the best things
:34:32. > :34:35.about Britain is that we are so open-minded in the fact that we take
:34:36. > :34:41.in the world, and that London is a world capital. But immigration is a
:34:42. > :34:46.net positive, usually the benefits go to the rich and the disadvantages
:34:47. > :34:52.tend to go towards those who are competing with immigrants for work.
:34:53. > :34:58.I think he was making a good point in a bad way. I think he is right in
:34:59. > :35:02.saying there is a rich-poor access. If you look at people who support
:35:03. > :35:05.immigration, it is easy for us to say because none of us are ready
:35:06. > :35:09.competing with immigrants for jobs. But those who are looking for work,
:35:10. > :35:17.you can see why it is tougher. There is really good data on this. In the
:35:18. > :35:21.main, people despised by migrant workers are other migrants. The main
:35:22. > :35:25.problem created is from the house country whence the migrants came. --
:35:26. > :35:33.host country. We should be asking why they are being blamed. Should we
:35:34. > :35:38.have no immigration controls? I don't think society is ready for
:35:39. > :35:44.that. Would business like to have an even more open... We would like to
:35:45. > :35:48.have an even more open system am absolutely. We would like more
:35:49. > :35:53.access to more people of different bright ease of skills and different
:35:54. > :35:59.motivation. Would we prefer -- different varieties. Our businesses
:36:00. > :36:05.would thrive more if we were free about it. The Liberal Democrats are
:36:06. > :36:08.the party for business? Many issues make up the political mix and
:36:09. > :36:13.immigration is not the only one. Frequently, our members complained
:36:14. > :36:18.about young South Africans, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans who
:36:19. > :36:21.come in here and can't stay on, they lose their skills and talents after
:36:22. > :36:26.two years because of an immigration policy that throws them out and that
:36:27. > :36:31.is mad. The pledge that was made, that we touched on with Ed Davey,
:36:32. > :36:36.but was undeliverable from the start, the idea of getting net
:36:37. > :36:39.migration to tens of thousands? I think it was something Cameron
:36:40. > :36:46.blurted out thinking it sounded good in his speech. Who commits to a
:36:47. > :36:51.target like that? When you have no control over a large proportion of
:36:52. > :36:55.it. Of course. By all means, target the incoming people but you can't
:36:56. > :37:01.really decide who -- control who decides to emigrate. It suggested
:37:02. > :37:06.they were not race is about immigration if that is the quality
:37:07. > :37:11.of their place -- not really serious about immigration. If that was the
:37:12. > :37:15.quality of their pledge. If there was not immigration we would have to
:37:16. > :37:19.fix problems in the labour force but right now we can afford to let the
:37:20. > :37:23.poor stay on the dole because we have a nonstop supply of immigrants.
:37:24. > :37:26.There are lot of problems around including housing and a lack of
:37:27. > :37:29.skills but to blame them on immigration is a mistake, and that
:37:30. > :37:32.is what are being irresponsible in doing.
:37:33. > :37:36.Now, over in Dublin there's a major political drama unfolding. The
:37:37. > :37:39.European People's Party - the centre right political group in the
:37:40. > :37:41.European Parliament - is meeting to choose their candidate for the
:37:42. > :37:45.Presidency of the European Commission. David Cameron won't be
:37:46. > :37:49.there. The Tories quit the EPP group back in 2009. But some of the
:37:50. > :37:58.biggest names in European politics, such as German chancellor Angela
:37:59. > :38:01.Merkel, are in Ireland. As the candidates jostle for position, who
:38:02. > :38:05.is in pole position to succeed Jose Manuel Barroso? We're joined now by
:38:06. > :38:15.Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes to give us the latest odds. The Luxembourg
:38:16. > :38:18.candidate leads the way, the German candidate is second, the Belgian
:38:19. > :38:29.representative is at 5-1 and the French candidate, 8-1. Looking at
:38:30. > :38:36.that, Juncker has the backing of Angela Merkel and her Christian
:38:37. > :38:41.Democrat party, it is his to lose? Absolutely, 85% of bets have been
:38:42. > :38:47.for him. We haven't taken a single bet on the two outsiders, we think
:38:48. > :38:59.Juncker might be raising a point of the black stuff to celebrate in
:39:00. > :39:03.Dublin. Two candidates are on the EPP and the other two candidates are
:39:04. > :39:10.on the left. Do you think Juncker is going to take it? I hope so, use one
:39:11. > :39:15.of my favourite Europeans. He gave the best quote about how the EU
:39:16. > :39:19.operates saying we do things, it is competitive, nobody understands, so
:39:20. > :39:24.we keep going. He is actually quite witty. That's OK, then!
:39:25. > :39:30.And for the latest developments in Dublin, we're joined by Diarmaid
:39:31. > :39:33.Fleming. Welcome to the programme. There is no British politician in
:39:34. > :39:39.Dublin, what are they missing out on? What is the atmosphere like?
:39:40. > :39:44.There are about 2000 delegates from parties actively in the EPP, and
:39:45. > :39:48.also observers, notably from Ukraine and a whole host of journalists and
:39:49. > :39:52.officials. The building behind me looks like a tilted barrel, there
:39:53. > :40:00.might be a few tilted barrels after the celebrations tonight. It is a
:40:01. > :40:04.huge little festival, if you like, but for those who agree with each
:40:05. > :40:08.other. There is not going to be any particular debate. It is a sensitive
:40:09. > :40:11.matter in a certain way. Ireland was in love with the EU in times gone
:40:12. > :40:15.past when the money flowed one-way come about since the economic crash
:40:16. > :40:20.and austerity, this is fairly sensitive to rain domestically. In a
:40:21. > :40:25.way it is convenient for Ender Kelly, the Irish Prime Minister,
:40:26. > :40:29.that the agenda has been dominated largely by Ukraine rather than
:40:30. > :40:37.economic matters. Because otherwise it might not have gone down so well
:40:38. > :40:40.in Ireland? Are people gripped? I would say people are underwhelmed by
:40:41. > :40:44.the overwhelming number of politicians that have arrived here.
:40:45. > :40:47.People are polite and there is a feeling that this is good for
:40:48. > :40:51.commerce and trade, that you have similar people visiting and such a
:40:52. > :40:57.big event can be staged. If you remember last December, when Ireland
:40:58. > :41:01.exited the EU bailout, Jose Mourinho Barroso wanted to come to Ireland.
:41:02. > :41:02.The government asked him not to come -- Jose-Maria well Barroso wanted to
:41:03. > :41:16.come to the government here privately at the
:41:17. > :41:20.conference itself, they are backslapping each other and they are
:41:21. > :41:25.being congratulated by all of their European counterparts. In terms of
:41:26. > :41:33.the public appetite here, people are pretty nonplussed. Thank you very
:41:34. > :41:36.much. It is a big decision for European politics, they may not be
:41:37. > :41:42.gripped in Ireland because of what is happening. David Cameron is on
:41:43. > :41:46.the margins. Let's revisit that decision to pull out of the EPP, the
:41:47. > :41:51.sort of centre-right grouping. He was wrong? He did that because Liam
:41:52. > :41:55.Fox proposed it in the leadership bid. He stole that pledge from Fox
:41:56. > :42:03.without really thinking. I think most which is people -- like most
:42:04. > :42:08.British people, David Cameron could not care about what group he is in.
:42:09. > :42:11.I think Cameron underestimated how much problems it would cause with
:42:12. > :42:16.Germany, Angela Merkel has never forgiven him. If he had his time
:42:17. > :42:21.again, you probably wouldn't do it, simply because it annoyed Angela
:42:22. > :42:24.Merkel. It is so it's a terrible the average British voter, the way the
:42:25. > :42:31.European Parliament works -- it is so Lisa Esat Eric
:42:32. > :42:41.-- it is so esoteric. Do you think it would help him in terms of coming
:42:42. > :42:48.back to his party, saying I am able to negotiate with the most important
:42:49. > :42:52.person, Angela Merkel? Exactly. I think this is a brilliant example of
:42:53. > :42:56.why playing to the gallery, saying we are conservatives and can do what
:42:57. > :43:01.we want, we don't listen to Europe, it kicks a problem further down the
:43:02. > :43:06.line which then really comes back to you. This is going to haunt him for
:43:07. > :43:11.ages, that he hasn't got a seat at the table. Does it matter, who wins
:43:12. > :43:17.this contest? Of course it matters to Europe. We have a massive problem
:43:18. > :43:23.in Europe between a redistribution of money since the crash upwards.
:43:24. > :43:29.Whether the guys on the left or the right... I think the European
:43:30. > :43:32.Parliament is one of the most irrelevant constitutions in the
:43:33. > :43:33.whole continent. I would be more worried about who wins the Swedish
:43:34. > :43:40.election than this one. Now - Sir Tom Jones has dubbed him
:43:41. > :43:42."the singing politician" - 19-year-old Jermain Jackman has got
:43:43. > :43:46.through the blind auditions and last week's battle round on the BBC One
:43:47. > :43:50.talent show The Voice. But he's also a Labour Party activist who says he
:43:51. > :44:01.wants to be Prime Minister. Here he is in full voice on the show.
:44:02. > :44:11.# I am not going to leave you. # There is no way I will!
:44:12. > :44:23.What is your name? Jermain Jackman. Do you sing a lot? In church, at
:44:24. > :44:33.venues, for charities, I volunteer, I am into politics as well. Politics
:44:34. > :44:42.as well? I am the youth coordinator for Hackney and the Labour Party.
:44:43. > :44:46.UIs singing politician? -- you are a singing politician? There is a
:44:47. > :44:57.headline that said I would be the first singing black run minister.
:44:58. > :45:00.Grand ambitions! Well, I am just aiming high, trying to inspire the
:45:01. > :45:06.young people that we have in this country. What was it like being on
:45:07. > :45:13.the show? It was so surreal to have those four coaches to tell me, when
:45:14. > :45:17.he wanted me on his team, it was out of this world. Being recognised on
:45:18. > :45:23.the street, oh, my goodness! You will be recognised a lot more than I
:45:24. > :45:28.ever and, quite rightly! So do you want to be a singer, then? Music and
:45:29. > :45:33.politics are my passions, but music is my first love, and politics comes
:45:34. > :45:38.on the side, inspiring young people, that is what I aim to do with my
:45:39. > :45:43.music. What are the main platforms you would like to promote
:45:44. > :45:47.politically? My policies, in a sense? Just motivation, getting
:45:48. > :45:51.young people engaged in politics, making them believe that these goals
:45:52. > :45:59.are achievable. Have you met David Cameron? Yes, I got a Spirit of
:46:00. > :46:02.London award, and I was at Ten Downing Street, a big reception with
:46:03. > :46:06.a couple of celebrities, politicians, I was there with my
:46:07. > :46:13.mum, and David Cameron was saying hello to everyone. I said to him, I
:46:14. > :46:18.guess I will take your job, then. I don't know if you heard me or not!
:46:19. > :46:23.He smirked, so I guess he must have heard. Encouraging that simply wants
:46:24. > :46:27.to be the first black Prime Minister. Anyone who wants to be
:46:28. > :46:32.Prime Minister is a great thing! We need the talent in Westminster!
:46:33. > :46:38.Watching at home, most of your viewers could probably do it better
:46:39. > :46:42.than those guys. From a singing point of view, great, but
:46:43. > :46:47.interesting that the political dimensions has come through. It is
:46:48. > :46:51.so heartening to see someone on The Voice who cares about politics as
:46:52. > :46:57.well, because I really love those talent shows, but they are often
:46:58. > :47:02.quite kind of narrow, I need to succeed, I need to succeed for me,
:47:03. > :47:07.and I think you are so great. Thank you very much. He looked surprised
:47:08. > :47:12.when you mentioned politics. Like I said, it was so surreal to be in
:47:13. > :47:17.front of a legend, Tom Jones, everybody calls me a grandad because
:47:18. > :47:22.I take music from the 1960s and 70s. What are the issues that you and
:47:23. > :47:25.your friends are concerned about growing up, I think young people in
:47:26. > :47:31.this country are interested in politics. They see the political
:47:32. > :47:34.issues, about connecting political issues with political education, and
:47:35. > :47:39.getting that political education into schools, getting their mind
:47:40. > :47:44.going about responsibilities and what it means to vote, just getting
:47:45. > :47:50.them engaged. Are they interested in party politics? We are hugely
:47:51. > :47:54.interested in politics, but when it comes to choosing a winner, you see
:47:55. > :47:58.something in the Labour Party that you think is worth giving up your
:47:59. > :48:02.time for. You don't get many young people into the Lib Dems, the
:48:03. > :48:08.Tories, any political party. So I think Labour needs you more than the
:48:09. > :48:13.other way round! Do politicians do enough or do much for young people?
:48:14. > :48:18.I think they need to do much more, they need to talk to us. At the
:48:19. > :48:25.moment, it feels like Westminster and party politics is up there, and
:48:26. > :48:29.young people are there, we have seen DMA being cut, youth clubs being
:48:30. > :48:35.shut, and young people are being pushed into a corner and ignored. --
:48:36. > :48:40.EMA. It is about shining a light on young people, motivating them to
:48:41. > :48:43.vote, make their voices heard. Are you unusual among your friends as
:48:44. > :48:50.wanting to get actively involved in politics? I don't think so. I think
:48:51. > :48:55.I am just one of those leaders. If you look at Martin Luther King, was
:48:56. > :49:00.he unusual? He just wanted to make a change, stand for a change. I just
:49:01. > :49:04.feel like I will be a face of change. Looking ahead to the
:49:05. > :49:07.Scottish referendum, they are lowering the voting age, do you
:49:08. > :49:12.think that could be a real possibility? I don't see why not. We
:49:13. > :49:17.talk all the time about the problems of apathy and disengagement, and it
:49:18. > :49:26.is a serious problem in Westminster. If young people don't vote... But
:49:27. > :49:30.will they vote? You can't not offer a vote to younger people on the
:49:31. > :49:35.basis that they might not use it. If you are worried about them using it,
:49:36. > :49:41.make it as broad as possible. Do you agree? I do agree. I think there is
:49:42. > :49:44.a case for it. Alex Salmond has found that young people are against
:49:45. > :49:51.independence now, which is a surprise when! We were discussing
:49:52. > :49:53.the revelations regarding the Stephen Lawrence case, Doreen
:49:54. > :49:58.Lawrence talking about the case that there is no trust between police and
:49:59. > :50:01.communities or some black and ethnic minority communities. How do you
:50:02. > :50:05.feel as a young black man living in London? There needs to be a level of
:50:06. > :50:09.trust with young people, or people in general with the police, and I
:50:10. > :50:15.think that trust and confidence is slowly deteriorating. You think it
:50:16. > :50:19.is deteriorating recently? It fluctuates, it fluctuates, and I
:50:20. > :50:23.used to campaign for police communications. I used to get police
:50:24. > :50:27.officers and young people to meet at the Town Hall, just to communicate
:50:28. > :50:32.and get along with each other, have that common ground and start to
:50:33. > :50:37.respect one another. But you think it is going downhill now? If you see
:50:38. > :50:41.the Stephen Lawrence verdict yesterday, it is like, how are we
:50:42. > :50:45.going to trust the police? That is why people are reluctant to report
:50:46. > :50:50.things to the police. It is sickening to think that there is
:50:51. > :50:55.still corruption in the Met Police, just a small minority of corrupt
:50:56. > :50:58.police officers that are ruining the great work that the Metropolitan
:50:59. > :51:03.Police do. It is interesting that you felt there was a relationship,
:51:04. > :51:06.that things had got better in the past, and these events and
:51:07. > :51:11.revelations of the very thing that can dent and damage that. It is
:51:12. > :51:16.important that we get these out of the way and build towards the
:51:17. > :51:20.future. I would do that where we can get police officers and young people
:51:21. > :51:24.on the same ground, on the same playing ground, Common ground, where
:51:25. > :51:29.they can communicate and get to know one another, and it is not a thing
:51:30. > :51:36.were police are just looking at young people. I get that a lot, when
:51:37. > :51:42.it is raining and I have my hood up. They look at me, there is no need
:51:43. > :51:46.for it. It goes deeper than that, it goes in to stop and search, things
:51:47. > :52:00.like that. Weiss what do they call them, bully bands? I grew up knowing
:52:01. > :52:03.that is what they call them. Have you been stopped and searched? Loads
:52:04. > :52:09.of friends have been stopped and searched. It's positive if it gets
:52:10. > :52:15.knives and guns off the road, but it can damage the trust that young
:52:16. > :52:19.people have. And there is a whole section that goes really deep. There
:52:20. > :52:25.have been reports that Number Ten are not quite so keen on the idea.
:52:26. > :52:29.She is making a plausible case for herself. It is really important,
:52:30. > :52:32.because it is not just the inconvenience of being stopped and
:52:33. > :52:37.searched, but the more likely you are to be stopped, the more likely
:52:38. > :52:41.you are to be convicted, and it means the criminal justice system is
:52:42. > :52:46.raked in a racist direction. It is important to do better than this,
:52:47. > :52:54.and if anyone can, it might be Theresa May. She is a steely lady.
:52:55. > :52:59.We on Daily Politics like a bit of show business ourselves, so we
:53:00. > :53:04.thought we would have our own version of The Voice, the political
:53:05. > :53:08.voice, that is. We are going to bring up a quote or policy from a
:53:09. > :53:17.party, and all you have to do is guess which one said it. Easy! So
:53:18. > :53:20.here is the first one. Which party said they will protect your jobs and
:53:21. > :53:27.benefits? Shout out if you know the answer! Recently, it has to be
:53:28. > :53:33.recently. Who said that recently? Anybody? UKIP, well done. It was not
:53:34. > :53:40.as hard as you thought. He is a swot! He is, though. Don't worry,
:53:41. > :53:43.you are putting in your justification first. Which party
:53:44. > :53:47.warned that those who don't have the skills they need for a job will have
:53:48. > :53:53.to take up training alongside their job search or lose their benefits?
:53:54. > :53:58.It is probably Labour, isn't it? Well done, it is. It gets easier,
:53:59. > :54:01.who wants to scrap national insurance contributions for under 21
:54:02. > :54:09.is to make it easier for firms to take on younger workers? Jermain?
:54:10. > :54:16.Let me say Lib Dems. No, conservatives! And finally, name the
:54:17. > :54:21.party that wants to increase exit checks to improve border controls.
:54:22. > :54:27.That was just in the programme. I don't have a clue! That was the Lib
:54:28. > :54:32.Dems. Well done! Thank you for having me on the show, thank you. If
:54:33. > :54:36.you feel you have missed out on the big political stories, it is our job
:54:37. > :54:37.to bring the important and not so important to you, Adam Fleming with
:54:38. > :54:47.the week in 60 seconds. Who knew World War III would start
:54:48. > :54:53.with some Slavic chaps eyeballing each other moodily? The crisis in
:54:54. > :54:56.Ukraine rumbled on as Russia effectively occupied the Crimea.
:54:57. > :55:01.World leaders talked about it! Immigrants have taken our jobs, no,
:55:02. > :55:04.they haven't. Or maybe they have a little bit. According to a report
:55:05. > :55:09.that was repressed by the government back row until it wasn't. He has
:55:10. > :55:14.been banging on about it for ages, but Eric Pickles was forced on this
:55:15. > :55:19.very programme to confront his record on reintroducing weekly
:55:20. > :55:23.rubbish collections. 70% of bins are still collected fortnightly. We have
:55:24. > :55:26.only been in office a little while... And flipping MPs and peers
:55:27. > :55:38.have been doing this again. Is that Dave? I'm just calling to
:55:39. > :55:39.say that picture of you on the phone to Barack Obama is being mercilessly
:55:40. > :55:52.spoofed online, bye! So what was supposed to be a very
:55:53. > :55:56.serious phone call about Ukraine rather got ripped to pieces and
:55:57. > :56:01.Twitter, the perils of Twitter. I think it is the perils of posting a
:56:02. > :56:06.photograph of yourself on Twitter, it is just vanity. He paid the price
:56:07. > :56:12.for his own ridiculous vanity. Do you agree? Politicians now, look,
:56:13. > :56:18.George Osborne with his hot dog, it can backfire on you. Gubler the only
:56:19. > :56:27.ones we remember are the ones with 1000 comments. They think they will
:56:28. > :56:30.bypass the journalists but the public are even more scathing! Do
:56:31. > :56:41.think we should CNN to those pictures? More, it is entertaining!
:56:42. > :56:44.-- see an end. It leads to a more serious issue, Ukraine. Depending on
:56:45. > :56:54.how you look at it, Crimea looks as if it has gone. Yes, it is difficult
:56:55. > :56:58.to see how the referendum will not come up with the same outcome. It
:56:59. > :57:03.looks as if Putin has correctly calculated that Europe couldn't do
:57:04. > :57:09.anything and America has not yet got its energy policy sorted. So what
:57:10. > :57:12.happens? There was a bit of a divide in the EU about how to deal with
:57:13. > :57:15.it, the Eastern European countries would have liked to have seen a
:57:16. > :57:20.tougher stance, as would Britain, but not against Angela Merkel. I
:57:21. > :57:26.don't think anyone was prepared for how anti-European food and is.
:57:27. > :57:34.Really? Yeah. There was always a sense that he was naturally allied
:57:35. > :57:38.against them when there was something like Syria, but I think
:57:39. > :57:41.the sheer hostility came as a slap in the face. Do think it says
:57:42. > :57:47.something about his power in terms of his economic strength that he is
:57:48. > :57:53.in the long weakening, or holding on to these former satellite states? I
:57:54. > :57:59.think Russia is morphing into a sort of big gas company with an arm, and
:58:00. > :58:03.it is just testing the limits. It wants the support of Crimea, it has
:58:04. > :58:06.got one in Syria, it probably once one in Egypt, and it is testing to
:58:07. > :58:13.see how much the West still cares about what it does. Putin has
:58:14. > :58:16.prodded Europe and America, and with Europe the answer is not think,
:58:17. > :58:21.America has been a bit more hawkish, sending fighters over. It
:58:22. > :58:25.is interesting, because all the conversation around Sochi was they
:58:26. > :58:30.could not afford it, what are they doing? And then suddenly, after
:58:31. > :58:37.that, this huge show of military strength which shows that Putin, for
:58:38. > :58:42.him, money is no object, we have everything. That is it for today.
:58:43. > :58:46.Thank you to all of our guests, particularly do you do for being the
:58:47. > :58:51.guests of the day. The one o'clock news is starting on BBC One, and
:58:52. > :58:52.Andrew will be back at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning with the Sunday
:58:53. > :58:54.Politics. Bye.