:00:38. > :00:44.Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Britain's politicians are
:00:45. > :00:49.all over the energy market. Ofgem is referring the big six providers of
:00:50. > :00:52.our gas and electricity to the competition authorities. They might
:00:53. > :00:58.not report for two years. We will speak to the energy minister.
:00:59. > :01:04.Who did it for you? We will look at which one sword and which one sank
:01:05. > :01:07.in the Daily Politics spin room. Plain cigarette packaging is back in
:01:08. > :01:12.the spotlight, an imminent report into how effective the policy could
:01:13. > :01:15.be. We will investigate claims from the tobacco industry it could lead
:01:16. > :01:19.to more cigarettes being sold on the black market.
:01:20. > :01:25.And, are we facing a skills gap between what schools are teaching
:01:26. > :01:32.and what the economy needs? Lord Baker thinks so, he will tell us
:01:33. > :01:38.why. With us for the duration, the former
:01:39. > :01:42.editor of the Conservative home website, now of the times, Tim
:01:43. > :01:47.Montgomery. There will be a free vote on fox
:01:48. > :01:51.hunting before the next election, subject to having enough time in the
:01:52. > :01:56.parliamentary schedule. It is not exactly a packed schedule! The Prime
:01:57. > :02:00.Minister's hopes of taxing the rules to allow more dogs to flush out
:02:01. > :02:06.foxes have been quashed because he could not get coalition agreement.
:02:07. > :02:08.At PMQ 's, Angela Smith asked whether the government was
:02:09. > :02:15.considering amending the hunting act.
:02:16. > :02:19.As she knows, proposals were made on a cross-party basis to the
:02:20. > :02:23.Environment Secretary about an amendment to the hunting act that
:02:24. > :02:29.would help upland farmers in particular deal with the problem of
:02:30. > :02:32.boxes on their land. That letter is being considered. I regret to say I
:02:33. > :02:37.do not think there will be government agreement to go forward.
:02:38. > :02:42.14 months to the election, which will be decided on the economy, also
:02:43. > :02:50.reform, immigration, quality of schools, what has fox hunting got to
:02:51. > :02:54.do with it? And issued you have covered is the decline of Tory
:02:55. > :02:59.membership, the lack of activists. What the Conservative party has used
:03:00. > :03:06.are people like country sports enthusiasts, they have been flooded
:03:07. > :03:10.into an urban as through Ross said. To deliver leaflets that the Tory
:03:11. > :03:16.party does not have activists for. Did they bring the foxes with them?
:03:17. > :03:22.There are plenty where I am! Absolutely! It is a liberty issue
:03:23. > :03:26.for the Conservative party as well, but they need the fox hunting troops
:03:27. > :03:31.to park your make up for the lack of grassroots activists. That is the
:03:32. > :03:38.practical reason. Does it make good politics? No, because even in rural
:03:39. > :03:44.areas, the main concerns are housing and access to broadband. Fox hunting
:03:45. > :03:47.is not the biggest issue. If you look at the numbers participating in
:03:48. > :03:55.homes across the country, they are at record levels. It is still going
:03:56. > :04:02.on. Absolutely. You have sorted that out! It is time for our quiz. The
:04:03. > :04:05.BBC School report is running today, schoolchildren are being allowed to
:04:06. > :04:11.grill politicians and throw in the odd unexpected question. Tristram
:04:12. > :04:14.Hunt has been put in the hot seat, and he was asked what his favourite
:04:15. > :04:20.thing was about the Education Secretary Michael Gove. What was his
:04:21. > :04:26.answer? That he is sending his daughter to a state secondary
:04:27. > :04:32.school... ? His good manners? His enthusiasm for history? Or his
:04:33. > :04:38.wife? -- his wife's newspaper columns? We will have the correct
:04:39. > :04:43.and sat at the end of the show. Nigel Farage gave a brilliant
:04:44. > :04:45.performance according to UKIP, no surprise there!
:04:46. > :04:52.Nick Clegg was powerful and authoritative, according to the
:04:53. > :04:57.Liberal Democrats! We only deal in unbiased opinions and analysis! What
:04:58. > :05:04.about the real world? A poll just after the debate found that Nigel
:05:05. > :05:10.Farage one, 50 7% to 36%, though the chucking worm that they'd used did
:05:11. > :05:15.not show nearly that much of a gap. Here is a flavour.
:05:16. > :05:21.We have a total open door, unconditionally, to 485 million
:05:22. > :05:27.people, and they are the roles of the European Union. What you have
:05:28. > :05:33.heard is not true. This is a leaflet that his party distributed in the
:05:34. > :05:36.recent Eastleigh by-election. It says that 29 million Romanians and
:05:37. > :05:42.Bulgarians may come to this country, there are not even 29 million living
:05:43. > :05:51.in Rome area and Bulgaria. It is simply not true. You did not answer
:05:52. > :05:55.the basic question. I am not claiming 29 million people have the
:05:56. > :06:00.right to come to Britain, I am claiming 485 million people have the
:06:01. > :06:03.total unconditional right to come to this country if they want to. We
:06:04. > :06:09.should not be sacrificing a single job, a single job, just to fulfil
:06:10. > :06:14.this dogmatic view that we should turn our backs on the rest of the
:06:15. > :06:20.world and on Europe. I remember you and your gang, the big culprits,
:06:21. > :06:27.telling us 12 years ago that if we did not join the euros, all
:06:28. > :06:31.investment into Britain would cease, the City of London will disappear.
:06:32. > :06:36.Thank God we did not listen to you. Otherwise, we would be in one hell
:06:37. > :06:43.of a mess. White are countries like Ukraine keen to have another closer
:06:44. > :06:46.ties to the EU? The British government iron neared the
:06:47. > :06:53.enlargement of the EU so we would have more and rule of law in our
:06:54. > :06:57.European McCarthy would. We have given false hopes to the people in
:06:58. > :07:00.the west of Ukraine, they were so geed up, they topple their own
:07:01. > :07:07.elected leader, that provoked Vladimir Putin, and the EU does have
:07:08. > :07:12.blood on its hands in the Ukraine. I want us to be Great Britain, not
:07:13. > :07:15.little England. If you feel the same, now is the time to make your
:07:16. > :07:21.voice heard. Labour and the Conservatives will do nothing to
:07:22. > :07:25.stop us heading towards the exit. I am British, the best people to
:07:26. > :07:30.govern Britain are the British people, and by divorcing ourselves
:07:31. > :07:33.from this failed project, not only will be free Britain, we will
:07:34. > :07:41.provide a good example for much of the rest of Europe.
:07:42. > :07:46.I flavour of the debate. I am joined by two communications supremo 's.
:07:47. > :07:52.Let's see how good they are! The chief spinner for UKIP, and the
:07:53. > :07:57.former chief spinner for the Liberal Democrats. That was round one, round
:07:58. > :08:01.two is on the BBC next week. What will you advise your man to do next
:08:02. > :08:07.week, what improvements can he make? I am not going to give away
:08:08. > :08:15.any state secrets. You have not got any! We will be looking through, we
:08:16. > :08:19.will be doing a comprehensive debrief, going through the video
:08:20. > :08:26.footage, looking at all of the issues. What was the high point and
:08:27. > :08:30.low point? It was high in general, and the polling numbers should it,
:08:31. > :08:35.which surprised the metropolitan media bubble. It could not all be a
:08:36. > :08:40.high point, because that would not mean anything. What was the high
:08:41. > :08:45.point? The best bits that people would have connected to the
:08:46. > :08:48.questions on immigration and the effect of the compression of wages,
:08:49. > :08:54.youth unemployment, pressure on public services. That was the
:08:55. > :08:59.strongest argument? What would you advise your leader to do next week
:09:00. > :09:04.to improve his performance? Overall, both of them did quite
:09:05. > :09:08.well, speaking to their own markets. Both of them gave strong
:09:09. > :09:14.performances. If you were minded to support either of them. What was the
:09:15. > :09:20.high point for Nick Clegg was in the dissection of the poll, 50% of
:09:21. > :09:26.Labour supporters say that they are minded to support him, and that is
:09:27. > :09:30.precisely the thing that he wants, and 27% of conservatives. If I was
:09:31. > :09:38.advising both of them, and a few less statistics. You have just given
:09:39. > :09:42.statistics! I understand that you have an elite audience here! You are
:09:43. > :09:52.not trying to reach beyond... A good recovery! You will see the transfer
:09:53. > :09:58.to your bank account! I would reduce some of them, but they fundamental,
:09:59. > :10:04.they are part of the argument. If I was an ordinary punter watching,
:10:05. > :10:07.that is what I would change. Do you think Nigel Farage would regret
:10:08. > :10:14.saying that the EU has blood on its hands? Absolutely not. We were the
:10:15. > :10:19.first political party that broke out of the establishment consensus over
:10:20. > :10:22.Syria, and opposed military intervention. We were told we were
:10:23. > :10:27.being irresponsible. Then, the House of Commons voted the same way. Then,
:10:28. > :10:32.the Americans and French fell into line. In this case, field or reason
:10:33. > :10:37.outside the way to conduct foreign policy is to speak softly and carry
:10:38. > :10:42.a big stick. What the EU has done is shouted its mouth off while carrying
:10:43. > :10:48.a matchstick. It has given the western Ukrainian is false hopes of
:10:49. > :10:54.a future based on EU funds. That is a respectable line to take, that the
:10:55. > :10:59.EU overplayed its hand. But why does that give it blood on its hands?
:11:00. > :11:07.People have died, radio men and women, thinking the future was up
:11:08. > :11:12.for grabs. The EU for over a decade has been giving this false
:11:13. > :11:20.perspective -- prospectus to people in western Ukraine. The EU is the
:11:21. > :11:24.root of all evil? What Vladimir Putin has done is wrong, I do not
:11:25. > :11:29.blame the people of Ukraine for referring the EU to Vladimir Putin,
:11:30. > :11:37.any force, given that choice, would go for those -- for that option. But
:11:38. > :11:41.I blame it for giving them false hope and destabilising the country,
:11:42. > :11:48.part of the country is annexed and a long Russian shadow over the rest of
:11:49. > :11:53.it. I want to bring you back to one statistic, Nigel Farage said about
:11:54. > :11:59.75% of laws come from Europe, we cannot find anything to back that
:12:00. > :12:04.up, but Nick Clegg said that 7% of UK law is made in Brussels. He
:12:05. > :12:08.quoted the House of Commons Library. The finest researchers in this
:12:09. > :12:13.country have been to the House of Commons Library. 7% is only one
:12:14. > :12:16.figure with regard to statutes. The House of Commons research paper says
:12:17. > :12:20.that the figure, depending on which laws you take and the nature of
:12:21. > :12:32.them, could be anything between 15 and 50%. Read the small print. The
:12:33. > :12:39.evidence that I saw what the House of Commons Library evident. This was
:12:40. > :12:44.about laws that went through the House of Commons, as I understand
:12:45. > :12:51.it. Acts of Parliament put in place by the UK Parliament with EU
:12:52. > :12:57.influence, ten to 14%. What Nigel Farage did not do is sourced to 75%,
:12:58. > :13:03.did they make it up in the pub one night? We had a commission coming
:13:04. > :13:07.over to London and saying that over 70% of laws come from Brussels. That
:13:08. > :13:13.is your own commissioner speaking. Not mine. I do not distinguish the
:13:14. > :13:23.Liberal Democrats from the European project. I have my own commissioner
:13:24. > :13:28.in my pocket, right now! Don't you think that the Prime Minister should
:13:29. > :13:31.have been in this? I do not know, but what is clear is that both
:13:32. > :13:40.parties did well in their own terms. We have seen this historic decline,
:13:41. > :13:46.90% of the British people voting for the main two parties 40 or 50 years
:13:47. > :13:51.ago, now it is 70%. This kind of debate will institutionalise the
:13:52. > :13:55.fact that three, four or five parties are in party politics, which
:13:56. > :14:02.is a huge problem for Ed Miliband or David Cameron. They would not have
:14:03. > :14:07.addressed it by being in the debate, but the split in the electorate is a
:14:08. > :14:10.big problem. For parties means it is catching up with Scotland, Wales and
:14:11. > :14:17.Northern Ireland, we are a complete United Kingdom. It is a four party
:14:18. > :14:22.system in each of the goods that you are in each of the goods that you
:14:23. > :14:28.part. Kuwaiti rooting for? -- who were you rooting for? I was
:14:29. > :14:35.supporting UKIP, it is where I agree with Tony Blair, -- Tony Benn, we
:14:36. > :14:38.should be allowed to change the politicians who make our laws, we
:14:39. > :14:45.should not have unaccountable bureaucrats deciding how we govern.
:14:46. > :14:52.Preaching to the converted, do you think anybody switched as a result?
:14:53. > :14:56.I do not think... It was not preaching to the converted, you know
:14:57. > :15:02.where we are in the opinion polls, so if you are saying there is a 36%
:15:03. > :15:06.who are minded, and some people in the Labour Party said Nick Clegg
:15:07. > :15:10.stood up for staying in Europe, and we will lead him our vote in May,
:15:11. > :15:20.that is precisely the kind of thing that brings some joy to some quite
:15:21. > :15:23.tough polls. I agree on that, but we took a leadership of that much
:15:24. > :15:30.bigger, broader community in Britain that are fundamentally Eurosceptic,
:15:31. > :15:36.and Nigel was the champion. Are you enjoying going over to the dark
:15:37. > :15:40.side? I'm loving it. Won't this mean having a real job, like a
:15:41. > :15:45.journalist. Thank you both. Come back and serious after next week.
:15:46. > :15:48.Both Labour and the Conservatives are claiming they are not that
:15:49. > :15:52.interested in yesterday's debate that don't believe a word of it.
:15:53. > :15:56.While it is the prevailing view that it is the Tories that suffer when
:15:57. > :16:00.UKIP do well, there is a theory that Labour could do well -- be harmed
:16:01. > :16:05.when you could go on the march. Nigel Farage addressed the issue of
:16:06. > :16:10.whether support was coming from when he spoke to Andrew a couple of weeks
:16:11. > :16:12.ago. You seem to be in an impossible position, because the better you do
:16:13. > :16:19.in the election, the less chance there will be a referendum by 2020.
:16:20. > :16:24.No, no, no, look at the numbers. Only a third of the voters we have
:16:25. > :16:28.our Conservative. When we have polled voters who, to us, whether
:16:29. > :16:33.they are Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, and we ask who
:16:34. > :16:38.wait -- they would vote for, less than one in five say they would vote
:16:39. > :16:43.Conservative. Less than one in five UKIP voters would be tempted to vote
:16:44. > :16:48.Conservative under any circumstances. That was Nigel Farage
:16:49. > :16:56.talking to Andrew a few weeks ago. He was a bit rattled by that. I was
:16:57. > :16:58.poking him with a cattle prod. I am joined by Matthew Goodwin who has
:16:59. > :17:02.just written a book with fellow academic Robert Ford which looks at
:17:03. > :17:05.the rise of UKIP in British politics and where their current level of
:17:06. > :17:10.support comes from. Welcome to the programme. You have a party that
:17:11. > :17:14.started off with just 1% of the vote 20 years ago and now are on track
:17:15. > :17:20.for victory in this year's European elections. UKIP has come a long way
:17:21. > :17:26.from its humble beginnings as an anti-EU pressure group. We analysed
:17:27. > :17:29.almost 6000 UKIP voters but we also tracked the party support over the
:17:30. > :17:35.last ten years, so were not just looking at the opinion polls this
:17:36. > :17:39.year, and what the party will do in 2015, and it shows that this kind of
:17:40. > :17:43.revolt has been a long time coming and has been building amongst the
:17:44. > :17:51.1970s among particular groups, working class, old, unskilled, low
:17:52. > :17:53.educated people people who feel left behind by Britain's economic
:17:54. > :17:59.transformation and were the first to be hit by the crisis. Do you dispute
:18:00. > :18:06.the claim that the majority of support comes from Tories in ex-oil?
:18:07. > :18:09.Right now the support comes from conservatives -- in Excel. But the
:18:10. > :18:15.support has been building for some time. In 2010 we found it actually
:18:16. > :18:19.came from disillusioned Labour supporters. And where would these
:18:20. > :18:22.voters be if UKIP were not in British politics right now? Would
:18:23. > :18:27.they be going to the Conservatives? Unlikely. They should, under the
:18:28. > :18:31.current reality go towards the Labour Party which is why there are
:18:32. > :18:34.big questions for them. You say it's been a long time coming. What are
:18:35. > :18:39.the conditions that have brought these people together and led to a
:18:40. > :18:47.rise in support, fairly recently for UKIP? A lot of this is about social
:18:48. > :18:53.and value divides in Britain. UKIP is a symptom of division within our
:18:54. > :18:56.society. It's not so much interesting in terms of Nigel Farage
:18:57. > :18:59.on the party, it is telling us something about Britain, and the
:19:00. > :19:03.deep division between those who have been left behind and those who have
:19:04. > :19:07.the skills and education to adapt and prosper. How worried are you buy
:19:08. > :19:11.that analysis? And if you look at the polls today, it is the Tory
:19:12. > :19:23.suffering in terms of bleeding support to UKIP. If David Cameron
:19:24. > :19:27.could design a puzzling -- opposing leader and Chancellor, he would come
:19:28. > :19:31.up with Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. I do disagree with Matthew on one
:19:32. > :19:36.thing. Conservative Party that wins a majority does need to be winning
:19:37. > :19:39.the kind of Labour voters are disgruntled with Ed Miliband. That
:19:40. > :19:45.is the kind of person that Norman Tebbit, when he was party chairman
:19:46. > :19:50.in the 80s, reached. The Conservative Party was brought.
:19:51. > :19:52.Every successful Conservative leader keeps the centre-right coalition
:19:53. > :19:56.together and David Cameron has failed to do that during his
:19:57. > :20:02.leadership. Is it then a mistake for David Cameron and the Tory
:20:03. > :20:05.leadership to present the sort of policies that some Tory backbenchers
:20:06. > :20:09.would like to counter what they see as the rise of UKIP?
:20:10. > :20:13.Anti-immigration, rhetoric around that, more Eurosceptic things,
:20:14. > :20:19.because you could end -- alienate the centre ground which most people
:20:20. > :20:25.think you need to win. Absolutely. This is the big challenge for
:20:26. > :20:30.Cameron. One of the misunderstandings is will go away if
:20:31. > :20:34.you give them a referendum. If you promise a net content migration,
:20:35. > :20:36.they will go away. But their polling has been stubbornly resilient to
:20:37. > :20:41.those promises and that is because the vote is not about instrumental
:20:42. > :20:44.public policy offers. This is about the heart more than the head. It's
:20:45. > :20:47.an emotional reaction in the sense that Britain isn't going in the
:20:48. > :20:53.direction that these voters wanted to go. So it has almost been a waste
:20:54. > :20:56.pursuing those policies by David Cameron in order to counter a threat
:20:57. > :21:03.when that is not really what UKIP is about. If David Cameron had not
:21:04. > :21:06.given the in or out referendum pledge he would be in a weaker
:21:07. > :21:09.position. But it is a broad phenomenon. We see the tea party in
:21:10. > :21:18.the United States, and the rise across Europe of people losing out
:21:19. > :21:21.from the global economy. Michael Heseltine said on this programme
:21:22. > :21:27.that he thought it was a racist party and a protest party. Is that
:21:28. > :21:35.completely wrong? It's not simply a political process. It's a knee jerk
:21:36. > :21:38.reaction to the voters there. The feel -- they feel strongly about a
:21:39. > :21:41.specific set of issues. In Westminster we need to get away with
:21:42. > :21:44.the obsession of what UKIP will do in 2015 and ask what the party tells
:21:45. > :21:50.us about the divisions within society. Matthew, thank you very
:21:51. > :21:54.much. If all that whetted your appetite, tune in next Wednesday for
:21:55. > :22:01.the BBC debate with Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage, which is on BBC Two at
:22:02. > :22:06.7pm. We will, won't we? We certainly will. Every minute of it. It is an
:22:07. > :22:10.issue that has troubled consumers through a number of years, domestic
:22:11. > :22:14.energy prices rising above the rate of inflation and earnings. While
:22:15. > :22:18.there were questions over whether the privatised electricity and gas
:22:19. > :22:21.markets have been competitive enough to give come -- customers a fair
:22:22. > :22:26.deal. Now there will be a full-blown competition enquiry and Joe has the
:22:27. > :22:32.details. I do. In the last six years electricity bills have risen by 39%
:22:33. > :22:36.and gas bills by almost two thirds over the same period. Critics argue
:22:37. > :22:41.that with only six companies supplying 95% of need, the market
:22:42. > :22:47.has failed. And that the size of those companies, their foreign
:22:48. > :22:50.ownership, and the fact they both produce energy and supplies makes it
:22:51. > :22:54.impossible to work out whether they are giving us a fair deal or
:22:55. > :22:58.profiteering. It is an issue that Ed Miliband has seized on. Last October
:22:59. > :23:04.the Labour leader said that he would freeze prices for 20 months and
:23:05. > :23:12.replaced the regulator, and break up the gas and electricity companies to
:23:13. > :23:16.make them more transparent. Yesterday SSE said they would freeze
:23:17. > :23:20.prices and split the company into separate generating and retail arms,
:23:21. > :23:24.with the suggestion they were pre-empting the Labour policy. But
:23:25. > :23:29.David Cameron said the SSE decision was down to his cut in the eco-levy.
:23:30. > :23:34.This morning off Jim said there was possible tacit coordination over
:23:35. > :23:38.price hikes and referred the companies to the markets authority
:23:39. > :23:41.which has the power to break them up -- this morning off Jim said --
:23:42. > :23:47.OFGEM said. Don't hold your breath. The enquiry alone is expected to
:23:48. > :23:52.take 18 months. In the last hour, Ed Davey explained why they would be an
:23:53. > :23:55.investigation despite the risk. A market investigation reference is a
:23:56. > :24:00.course of action that should not be lightly undertaken, especially when
:24:01. > :24:06.the energy market is going through radical changes to introduce new,
:24:07. > :24:10.low carbon generation while ensuring security of supply. But tackling
:24:11. > :24:15.these issues through the authorities provides confidence for investors
:24:16. > :24:18.and customers that the process will be evidence -based, fair and just
:24:19. > :24:24.and free from political interference. We can now speak to
:24:25. > :24:31.Richard Lloyd from the consumer organisation Which. You must welcome
:24:32. > :24:33.this. This is the right thing to do. There's been such a cloud of
:24:34. > :24:39.suspicion hanging over the industry, and what we now have is an
:24:40. > :24:42.independent investigation back and get to the bottom of what is going
:24:43. > :24:46.on. But this is a huge moment for the suppliers, in particular the
:24:47. > :24:49.biggest suppliers. We want to see them get on with putting customers
:24:50. > :24:53.at the heart of their business and getting their costs under control,
:24:54. > :24:56.and trading more transparently, whatever happens in the
:24:57. > :24:58.investigation. They should do that rather than threaten to turn the
:24:59. > :25:02.lights out if it doesn't go their way. It is a pivotal moment. It is
:25:03. > :25:07.make or break the big energy suppliers. And it will be, I hope,
:25:08. > :25:10.good for consumers in the longer run. But as you rightly said, don't
:25:11. > :25:15.hold your breath it won't happen overnight. Nothing is going to
:25:16. > :25:19.change for at least two years, so one of the questions is, when you
:25:20. > :25:23.look at other markets, like the supermarket, for instance, there
:25:24. > :25:28.doesn't seem to be a problem with them being more competitive on
:25:29. > :25:30.pricing. Why hasn't it worked for the big six energy companies? Have
:25:31. > :25:36.you failed as a consumer organisation to some extent? One of
:25:37. > :25:39.the interesting things about the OFGEM report today is that they say
:25:40. > :25:42.there is a clear evidence of a lack of competition and it has not worked
:25:43. > :25:46.in the market. We and they have known that for years. They've tried
:25:47. > :25:50.to tackle it through changing the rule book, making the market a bit
:25:51. > :25:55.more simple, getting more liquidity into the wholesale market, but
:25:56. > :25:57.everyone agrees that that hasn't gone far enough and there is still a
:25:58. > :26:04.huge number of consumers sitting on the same expensive tariffs, paying
:26:05. > :26:10.way over the odds, potentially a couple of hundred pounds a year or
:26:11. > :26:13.more, so the suppliers know people don't switch around and it's too
:26:14. > :26:19.confusing and complicated. There is the suspicion of the vertically
:26:20. > :26:23.integrated companies that sell themselves power and sell it on to
:26:24. > :26:27.consumers. And it's right to have a look at those things. But at the
:26:28. > :26:33.same time, OFGEM needs to show it is for tackling those problems in the
:26:34. > :26:37.market at the same time. In effect, we have a parallel process going
:26:38. > :26:43.on. It has to have the consumer welfare as part -- at its heart.
:26:44. > :26:49.Listening to that, the energy minister and the shadow energy
:26:50. > :26:53.minister. Michael Farren, why did it take you so long to work there was
:26:54. > :26:58.something wrong with market? We have been reforming the market ever since
:26:59. > :27:03.we came into office. They used to be 400 different tariffs and we have
:27:04. > :27:09.simplified them, and they will be easier for independent suppliers to
:27:10. > :27:13.compete against the big six. We have reformed the market as we have gone
:27:14. > :27:18.enough -- along. Well, busily not enough. This is great news that the
:27:19. > :27:24.competition authorities have overlooked at the energy market and
:27:25. > :27:27.it will be welcome to the consumers and companies themselves because
:27:28. > :27:31.they will have more certainty. One of the great reforms you talked
:27:32. > :27:36.about was designed to make people -- easier for people to switch. The
:27:37. > :27:43.number of electricity transfers fell by 20% between 2011 and 2013. There
:27:44. > :27:47.was a drop in the switch after the mis-selling allegations, but that is
:27:48. > :27:51.one of the key issues they will investigate. What is the right level
:27:52. > :27:56.of switching? Should switching be higher than it is? Why is it easy to
:27:57. > :28:00.switch your mobile phone provider? Why do people find it easier than
:28:01. > :28:04.switching an energy supplier. That's a key part of the any of the
:28:05. > :28:07.investigation. Is it not convenient for you because it kicks the issue
:28:08. > :28:12.into the long grass into the run-up to the election? It's not the long
:28:13. > :28:15.grass. They are under the floodlights. They will have to
:28:16. > :28:21.answer questions and will be forensically investigated. Allowing
:28:22. > :28:27.people like you to say you cannot comment until the investigation is
:28:28. > :28:30.over. We have time-limited. It can't be longer than 18 months and we will
:28:31. > :28:34.get the answer long before two years. It's important this is taken
:28:35. > :28:36.out of party politics. People make claims, and the Labour Party have
:28:37. > :28:39.been all over the place on whether its right to have vertical
:28:40. > :28:43.integration or whether the profits are too large. Let's have it
:28:44. > :28:48.investigated out of party politics and we get the answer we need. Does
:28:49. > :28:51.the Labour Party welcome this? Yes, but the point Richard Lloyd made,
:28:52. > :28:56.that doesn't mean nothing should happen while this goes on. We have
:28:57. > :29:00.set out a package of reforms that we are consulting on, and we are listed
:29:01. > :29:07.in 2015 we will take those forward. Let me go through with that. If you
:29:08. > :29:11.win next May, the competition commission investigation will be
:29:12. > :29:16.ongoing, but you will proceed with your price freeze in the middle of
:29:17. > :29:19.the investigation? We will proceed with the price freeze and the
:29:20. > :29:22.reforms we set out. That's interesting. I can see why you might
:29:23. > :29:27.want to proceed with the price freeze, but why would you proceed
:29:28. > :29:31.with substantial market reforms until you have read the
:29:32. > :29:35.investigation conclusions and the work of the competition commission?
:29:36. > :29:40.There are two issues. One is about transparency in the market, and one
:29:41. > :29:43.is about the competitive behaviour. Obviously the commission will do
:29:44. > :29:45.their work and if we are in position in government we will reflect on
:29:46. > :29:49.what they come out with at the end, but the other issues we've
:29:50. > :29:53.identified in the Green paper which we are consulting on, are about
:29:54. > :29:56.bringing transparency to the market which is woefully lacking. SSE's
:29:57. > :30:00.decision in relation to their generation and supply business
:30:01. > :30:04.indicate that the issues around trust are not just about being
:30:05. > :30:08.competitive it's also about transparency. You won't know for
:30:09. > :30:11.sure that the market is anti-competitive or if there is
:30:12. > :30:14.tacit price-fixing going on, and you won't know for sure if there is
:30:15. > :30:18.something going wrong between the wholesale and retail markets until
:30:19. > :30:27.you've read the full investigation. Because at the moment, you don't
:30:28. > :30:30.know. But we know there is an element of self supply between the
:30:31. > :30:46.companies, that there have been issues around liquidity, and we are
:30:47. > :30:51.in a situation where small companies... Transparency is key for
:30:52. > :30:56.the small companies. The investigation should be done by
:30:57. > :30:59.independent, academic experts, you cannot say profits and prices are
:31:00. > :31:04.too high and then say there is a lack of transparency and you do not
:31:05. > :31:07.know what they are. Do not misrepresent me, the issues around
:31:08. > :31:14.transparency or around the weight in which the trading functions, in the
:31:15. > :31:20.price that people are paying. Transparency is needed to get trust
:31:21. > :31:28.back, people do not trust their suppliers or the industry. We have
:31:29. > :31:33.major capacity shortages looming, and the government said it is
:31:34. > :31:38.looking for ?100 billion of fresh investment between 2015 and the end
:31:39. > :31:43.of the decade to create new capacity. The big six were already
:31:44. > :31:46.not investing much before you announced this, are you assuming
:31:47. > :31:51.they will not invest anything until this investigation is over? They
:31:52. > :31:58.have known about this, they are continuing to invest. SSA have just
:31:59. > :32:03.pulled out. Centrica pulled out of Hinckley, then EDF replace them. We
:32:04. > :32:09.have had billions invested in renewables, plenty of interest in
:32:10. > :32:12.our market reform, to replace the capacity that is ageing and needs to
:32:13. > :32:19.be replaced. This is not going to delay investment. So why every year
:32:20. > :32:26.have you added less new capacity than capacity to have closed and
:32:27. > :32:31.mothballed? It takes time to build a nuclear power station, we have done
:32:32. > :32:34.that now, the first nuclear power station for 25 years, we have had
:32:35. > :32:40.the two biggest wind farms in the world opened last year, there are
:32:41. > :32:44.formal under construction, a wave of other investment in renewables, and
:32:45. > :32:49.plenty of interest in our contracts which will be advertised in the
:32:50. > :32:55.autumn and in the capacity market, which is our reserve supply. Do you
:32:56. > :32:58.accept you are not replacing capacity as quickly as you are
:32:59. > :33:03.closing old capacity? We need to go faster, old capacity is being taken
:33:04. > :33:09.of the system because the previous government failed to invest, and
:33:10. > :33:14.signed up to commitments. We are running to catch up with a legacy of
:33:15. > :33:21.underinvestment. We are talking about electricity and gas prices, I
:33:22. > :33:28.welcome our viewers from Scotland. How much spare capacity will be have
:33:29. > :33:37.next winter? Sufficient capacity. It gets tighter, I cannot give the
:33:38. > :33:44.exact figure, in the winter of 2015/16 and 2016/17. But that is
:33:45. > :33:48.only if nothing is done. We are considering bringing some mothballed
:33:49. > :33:54.plants back into service. There is only going to be a crisis if nothing
:33:55. > :34:02.is done. That has been rejected, the gas company will not do it. There
:34:03. > :34:11.are many of bald gas plants. The major one that you wanted, S S E
:34:12. > :34:15.said it would not be available. Some are available and some are
:34:16. > :34:19.withdrawn, it is Ofgem's job to make sure there is sufficient capacity
:34:20. > :34:25.will stop we will only have a shortage if nothing is done. What
:34:26. > :34:32.can you do between now and 2016? You can bring unit back on. There are a
:34:33. > :34:37.series of mothballed stations and units that they are looking at. Is
:34:38. > :34:42.it true you have got diesel generator parks over the country,
:34:43. > :34:48.ready to click in? No, we do not need diesel. There are mothballed
:34:49. > :34:54.units of existing stations that can be brought on. Are you telling our
:34:55. > :35:00.viewers that diesel generation is not part of any back-up plan? I do
:35:01. > :35:08.not know the number of diesel units that there are. Over 300. It would
:35:09. > :35:16.be hard to think of anything generating more carbon dioxide. I
:35:17. > :35:20.will look at those for you. But there is sufficient capacity that
:35:21. > :35:23.can be put back onto the system other and Ofgem and the National
:35:24. > :35:27.Grid have been charged with that, making sure that the margin of
:35:28. > :35:32.capacity does not tighten in those winters. If there is a need for big
:35:33. > :35:39.investment, and there will still be, if Labour continues with the
:35:40. > :35:43.price freeze and reform the market even before you have seen the
:35:44. > :35:49.competition report, there is no chance of a single pound of fresh
:35:50. > :35:54.investment from the big six under Labour until that happens. Look at
:35:55. > :36:00.what S S E said yesterday, they are instituted part of the reform
:36:01. > :36:06.package, and they are still investing significant amounts. It
:36:07. > :36:14.works out at 1.5 million pounds a day. It is a significant amount. The
:36:15. > :36:18.investments they have pulled out from, they are not happening, but
:36:19. > :36:27.the people are coming in, and there is a difference between the big
:36:28. > :36:31.six's investment. The investment will not all come from the big six,
:36:32. > :36:37.but it will still come, but only if we have a long-term policy framework
:36:38. > :36:42.for the future. So much more to ask, but we need to move on.
:36:43. > :36:46.Yesterday, there were reports that there may have been a sizeable
:36:47. > :36:51.rebellion of Labour MPs voting against the government's proposed
:36:52. > :36:55.welfare cap. The idea put forward by George Osborne in the budget would
:36:56. > :36:59.in future sea limits set at the beginning of each Parliament. Labour
:37:00. > :37:05.had said they would support the measure, but a number of MPs were
:37:06. > :37:11.unhappy. Only 13 Labour MPs defied their party whip and voted against
:37:12. > :37:20.the measure. This is the key point that I would
:37:21. > :37:24.make to those people opposite, this welfare cap brings responsibility,
:37:25. > :37:28.accountability and fairness. Those who want to unto our welfare reforms
:37:29. > :37:32.will now have to tell us about the other cuts they will make all come
:37:33. > :37:38.clean and admit to the public that what they really want are higher
:37:39. > :37:43.welfare bills. We support capping Social Security spending, a policy
:37:44. > :37:48.the leader of the opposition advocated last year, and with
:37:49. > :37:53.welfare spending now ?13 billion higher than the government planned
:37:54. > :37:57.in its Spending Review, we will make different and fairer choices to get
:37:58. > :38:02.the Social Security Bill under control and tackle the root causes
:38:03. > :38:08.of rising spending. On that basis, we will support this motion this
:38:09. > :38:13.afternoon. I am one of the few people in here who have been a
:38:14. > :38:18.recipient of benefits, there will not be any on that side of the
:38:19. > :38:24.house. I was proud to get a job and that the company got be back to
:38:25. > :38:29.work, and I was not a benefit cheat, as some of these people what have
:38:30. > :38:34.you believe. I will welfare system should be based on the facts, it
:38:35. > :38:37.should be based on need, whatever short-term political advantage
:38:38. > :38:41.people think is gained by voting for the cap, it is outweighed by what is
:38:42. > :38:47.problematic. I will not be voting for this cap in the lobbies tonight.
:38:48. > :38:53.I listened to what the honourable baby -- honourable lady said, at no
:38:54. > :38:57.point she think about the other side of the coin, the people referred to
:38:58. > :39:02.by my honourable friend, the people who have to pay the bills. They have
:39:03. > :39:06.needs and requirements, and many low-paid people have to pay the
:39:07. > :39:10.bills, she never mentioned them. To acquiesce to this nonsense that
:39:11. > :39:16.piles more pain on our poorest pensioners, and low income families,
:39:17. > :39:19.would be a failure of leadership, and a betrayal of the people of
:39:20. > :39:28.Scotland who elected us, and who have the right to deserve better.
:39:29. > :39:33.Joining me now is one of the Labour rebels, Diane Abbott. Why did you
:39:34. > :39:39.vote against it? If we vote for a benefit cap, we are locked in to
:39:40. > :39:44.Tory benefit cuts, and whilst I believe we need to bring down
:39:45. > :39:47.spending on welfare, and we can do it by introducing a national living
:39:48. > :39:52.wage, Patrick cuts would be counter-productive. Ed Balls has
:39:53. > :39:57.said you would have different priorities, you would be able to
:39:58. > :40:01.stick to the spending cap on welfare by cutting different things, the
:40:02. > :40:06.bedroom tax, as Labour would call it. I was in the chamber, George
:40:07. > :40:13.Osborne challenged him on the detail of the benefits cut package. To
:40:14. > :40:19.everything George Osborne said, Ed Balls nodded. You have to believe we
:40:20. > :40:23.are locked into the Tory cuts. If you are not going to agree to any
:40:24. > :40:31.cuts, how are you going to bring the bill down? By putting up the living
:40:32. > :40:35.wage, so we are not spending on tax credits, by building housing so we
:40:36. > :40:40.are not pouring millions into housing benefit. There after short
:40:41. > :40:45.things you can do to bring down welfare over a Parliament. But with
:40:46. > :40:50.an annual cap, you are locked into the cuts. Tim will say it is popular
:40:51. > :40:55.with the public, George Osborne was swaggering around, he is putting the
:40:56. > :41:02.layabouts to the sword. But over a lifetime, he will all be the
:41:03. > :41:06.recipient of some sort of Social Security, whether it is child
:41:07. > :41:12.benefit or the pension. It is whether people will believe you will
:41:13. > :41:16.do anything about it. Tim, what do you say to what Diane has said? The
:41:17. > :41:21.Labour Party does not have credibility, they have opposed the
:41:22. > :41:26.welfare cuts and almost every card that the government has made. The
:41:27. > :41:30.great thing they needed to do was to establish fiscal credibility, that
:41:31. > :41:35.they could be trusted again. Ed Balls has signed up to it. They made
:41:36. > :41:43.an 11th hour effort to show some could ability, but what -- but if
:41:44. > :41:46.they were really bold, they could take on the coalition on protecting
:41:47. > :41:52.older pensioners' benefit. What's you could say is unfair is that
:41:53. > :41:57.working age people are bearing a disproportionate share of the
:41:58. > :42:02.burden. But like the other parties, they are afraid to tackle the issue,
:42:03. > :42:07.because older voters are numerous and vote twice as often as young
:42:08. > :42:10.people. The cap is going to increase, there will be more
:42:11. > :42:17.spending on welfare. George Osborne has said they plan to take a further
:42:18. > :42:26.?12 billion out, so where else would you take it? Things are going to be
:42:27. > :42:30.cut. A lot of effort to get more people into work. We have data
:42:31. > :42:35.showing there are 500,000 fewer households where nobody works will
:42:36. > :42:38.stop in terms of this coalition's achievements, I would put that near
:42:39. > :42:46.the top, work is the root to prosperity. What kind of jobs?
:42:47. > :42:54.Agency work? Low-paid work? It is to be subsidised by tax credit. You are
:42:55. > :42:59.out of date. I live in Hackney! The number of people getting full-time
:43:00. > :43:06.work is growing. A lot of them are not ideal jobs... Less than ideal.
:43:07. > :43:10.The problem is changing. It is better to have people in part-time
:43:11. > :43:17.work than the problems of previous recessions. The jobs miracle is
:43:18. > :43:24.that. I would not call it a miracle. Encouraging people to scapegoat
:43:25. > :43:30.benefit claimants is the nasty party back with a vengeance.
:43:31. > :43:37.You were at Tony Benn's tunable. It was really my thing -- it was really
:43:38. > :43:45.moving, they had Jerusalem, William Blake, his children all gave a
:43:46. > :43:51.testimony, and his brother spoke about him. It was a gathering of the
:43:52. > :43:59.left. A moving occasion. Michael Heseltine was there. Westminster
:44:00. > :44:03.Abbey? Just around the corner. Consider yourself our official
:44:04. > :44:06.correspondence. The issue of plain cigarette
:44:07. > :44:11.packaging caused headaches for the government last year. First it was
:44:12. > :44:16.going to be introduced, then it was not, then an enquiry. The report has
:44:17. > :44:20.come out of the long grass, the coalition will be forced to look at
:44:21. > :44:23.the issue again. Tobacco companies are claiming plain packaging could
:44:24. > :44:33.lead to an increase in black-market cigarettes.
:44:34. > :44:40.We all know smoking is bad for your health, successive governments have
:44:41. > :44:43.tried to stop people sparking up, whether through hefty taxes or the
:44:44. > :44:47.smoking ban. The idea of standardised packs bearing little
:44:48. > :44:53.but a health warning was reignited recently. They are already in place
:44:54. > :44:57.in Australia. The idea is they make cigarettes less appealing,
:44:58. > :45:02.especially to young smokers. These are Australian packs. No matter the
:45:03. > :45:06.brand, they look the same. The industry claimed the lack of
:45:07. > :45:12.markings make it easy to fake them, which could lead to a rise in
:45:13. > :45:19.illegal and counterfeit cigarettes. We start of the top, then works out
:45:20. > :45:22.towards Pimlico. This ex-policeman now works for tobacco giant Philip
:45:23. > :45:27.Morris, and his team travelled the country to assess the illicit travel
:45:28. > :45:31.-- tobacco market, unlike his employer, he says plain packs could
:45:32. > :45:35.make things worse. In counterfeit currency we had to keep ahead of
:45:36. > :45:39.them by putting in normal security measures in. Then overnight, most of
:45:40. > :45:44.the measures would be removed and instead of counterfeiting hundreds
:45:45. > :45:48.of types of brands, they only have to copy one, and the whole market is
:45:49. > :45:51.so not. His team want to remain anonymous because they go into shops
:45:52. > :45:54.to buy illicit tobacco from research and then refer illegal activity to
:45:55. > :46:01.trading standards. They claim it's easy to find. Sometimes they will
:46:02. > :46:05.come out from behind the counter, or they will be in behind packets of
:46:06. > :46:12.cornflakes and things, so these are ?3 50 a packet, and Marlboro
:46:13. > :46:16.cigarette you can get for ?8 a packet, the legitimate price, and we
:46:17. > :46:22.are getting them for around ?5 per packet. There is no dispute the
:46:23. > :46:25.illegal tobacco trade exists, whether counterfeit cigarettes all
:46:26. > :46:30.real brands smuggled in to avoid tax. But HM RC says the market has
:46:31. > :46:34.halved since the year 2000. Many claim there is no evidence that
:46:35. > :46:37.standardised packs were affected, saying it is a myth peddled by the
:46:38. > :46:44.tobacco industry which wants to keep advertising brands. The industry
:46:45. > :46:48.data, until 2011 when plain packaging was discussed, was similar
:46:49. > :46:51.to government data and other independent data. Suddenly the
:46:52. > :46:56.possibility of plain packaging was discussed and industry data shows an
:46:57. > :47:00.increase in illicit tobacco which seems false. The tobacco industry
:47:01. > :47:04.cannot be trusted. The arguments are false and should be seen for what
:47:05. > :47:09.they are, a PR ploy aiming to derail the legislation. We don't yet have
:47:10. > :47:15.standardised packaging so there's no impact invested -- impact data. In
:47:16. > :47:19.Australia, where the plane packets were introduced in 2012, there are
:47:20. > :47:24.different interpretations of data, but Customs said it does not appear
:47:25. > :47:28.to have had a significant impact on illicit tobacco import. In the UK,
:47:29. > :47:32.an independent report is due imminently and will no doubt spark
:47:33. > :47:39.further debate about whether it should be introduced here. Still
:47:40. > :47:42.with me is Diane Abbott, the former shadow public health minister, and
:47:43. > :47:50.joining Mrs Simon Clark, the director of the dash and joining us
:47:51. > :47:53.is Simon Clark. We heard that the tobacco industry can't be trusted
:47:54. > :47:56.with the data and will do anything to advertise, but surely anything
:47:57. > :47:59.lowering the number of deaths from smoking is a good thing. The
:48:00. > :48:02.government talks about evidence -based policy that there's no
:48:03. > :48:06.evidence that the plain packaging would reduce youth smoking rates.
:48:07. > :48:09.I'm 54 and I don't know a single smoker who started smoking as a
:48:10. > :48:14.teenager or later because they were attracted to the packaging. It's
:48:15. > :48:19.nonsense. I have only ever heard to ex-smokers who were attracted by the
:48:20. > :48:22.packaging, and they were politicians who were both Junior health
:48:23. > :48:26.spokesman, which says everything. We can't introduce it if there is no
:48:27. > :48:28.evidence for it and your report shows that illicit trade is a
:48:29. > :48:33.problem and we don't want to do anything that might exacerbate that.
:48:34. > :48:36.Let's ask the politician and former health minister whether you will
:48:37. > :48:43.back up the claims made by Simon that you just put out this policy
:48:44. > :48:47.with no evidence? That's nonsense. There have been major studies done
:48:48. > :48:50.by scientists and doctors about this, and all of the medical
:48:51. > :49:01.organisations support plain packaging. Can you explain what the
:49:02. > :49:04.studies actually are? The doctors want plain packaging because they
:49:05. > :49:09.believe it will help to bear down on levels of smoking. Let's not forget,
:49:10. > :49:16.smoking is not a harmless pastime, it's one of the biggest sources of
:49:17. > :49:21.cancer. To be honest with you, I'd rather believe a doctor than the
:49:22. > :49:27.tobacco industry lobbyist. The point I want to make is that one of the
:49:28. > :49:30.reason why the Tories have been reluctant is Lynton Crosby politics,
:49:31. > :49:36.a penny off the point, and you can have your fags as well. It's
:49:37. > :49:39.appealing to the UKIP voter. Is there evidence, and it's been
:49:40. > :49:42.introduced in Australia, and it's only been a year, and it's not a
:49:43. > :49:48.long enough time to give proper data, but interestingly, there has
:49:49. > :49:52.been a 0.3% increase from 2012 in the amount of tobacco smoke. It's a
:49:53. > :49:56.very small increase in new can't say it is conclusive. So what is the
:49:57. > :50:00.evidence that plain packaging would reduce the number of people who
:50:01. > :50:05.smoke? Doctors are convinced it is an important measure. When we
:50:06. > :50:12.introduced the ban on smoking in pubs and bars and they said that
:50:13. > :50:16.would do -- no one said that would do anything, but levels of childhood
:50:17. > :50:20.asthma drop. We're talking about health charities and doctors and
:50:21. > :50:24.cancer charities and they all say it will reduce the number of young
:50:25. > :50:28.people who start smoking who are attracted to the idea of colourful
:50:29. > :50:35.cigarette packaging. It's just nonsense. Are you saying they are
:50:36. > :50:41.all wrong? I'm saying it's based on conjecture. They ask basic groups,
:50:42. > :50:44.focus groups of 15-year-olds and they showed the plain packaging
:50:45. > :50:47.which is covered in grotesque images and then they showed them the
:50:48. > :50:50.current cigarette packaging and say which do you prefer. It's like
:50:51. > :50:54.showing a child a picture of a Lamborghini and a beaten up for
:50:55. > :50:58.their school, and ask which one you prefer? It's not a real-world
:50:59. > :51:04.situation -- a beaten up Ford Escort. I'm more interested in the
:51:05. > :51:08.electronic cigarette revolution which gets people of smoking. It
:51:09. > :51:11.doesn't have the tar which causes the health problems but still has
:51:12. > :51:14.the nicotine. The European regulation of that industry is the
:51:15. > :51:17.real threat to public health. I think we have to finish it there.
:51:18. > :51:22.I'm sure we will have you back on the programme about the subject. Are
:51:23. > :51:26.we teaching our pupils the right skills for the economy? The former
:51:27. > :51:30.Conservative Education Secretary Lord Baker thinks not. He wants more
:51:31. > :51:33.emphasis on vocational skills and more schools that specialise in
:51:34. > :51:38.so-called stem subjects like science, technology, engineering and
:51:39. > :51:41.maths. Lord Baker chose a group of technical colleges which aims to do
:51:42. > :51:45.that, and we will get his thoughts, but first we can speak to Moira
:51:46. > :51:48.Green, a principle of one such college in Elstree. Welcome to the
:51:49. > :51:54.programme. Tell us what your college specialises in. We specialise in the
:51:55. > :51:59.technical aspects of the entertainment and film industry,
:52:00. > :52:02.things like postproduction, lighting and sound. We make sure that
:52:03. > :52:07.students have a really grounded technical and academic curriculum.
:52:08. > :52:12.What is your offer to the students? I understand it opened last
:52:13. > :52:16.September. What is your offer in terms of guarantees of a job or a
:52:17. > :52:20.university place at the end of it? The aspiration is that all of the
:52:21. > :52:25.students will seek a route through to employment, and that might
:52:26. > :52:30.involve university, it might evolve up an apprenticeship -- involve an
:52:31. > :52:36.apprenticeship, and it will definitely involve work experience
:52:37. > :52:40.with partners. You have links setup that you can offer, proper work
:52:41. > :52:45.experience for the pupils. Of course. We are working with our
:52:46. > :52:49.employer partners. We have recently worked with the Big Brother
:52:50. > :52:54.producers. Our students spent three days being the crew for the next set
:52:55. > :53:01.of contestants and will work with the design team on the design of the
:53:02. > :53:07.next house. We are also working with the MOBOs and our students are
:53:08. > :53:10.lighting, doing the sound, and then web packaging the contents for the
:53:11. > :53:17.website in conjunction with their design and editorial team. This is
:53:18. > :53:21.for 14 to 18-year-olds? Yes, and it's already happening. We've been
:53:22. > :53:23.open seven months and we have real links with partners providing
:53:24. > :53:29.incredible opportunities the young people. Moira Green, thank you very
:53:30. > :53:32.much. The man behind the movement joins us now, Kenneth Baker. Welcome
:53:33. > :53:40.back. Interesting listening to the headmistress there. How many UTC
:53:41. > :53:42.colleges are there? We have 17 open and 12 more will open this year and
:53:43. > :53:49.we will have another 12 more approved. It's not just a few cases.
:53:50. > :53:54.Are you getting to a critical mass? Yes, I think it's now unstoppable.
:53:55. > :53:58.That is wonderful. She will guarantee that her youngsters will
:53:59. > :54:02.get a job, an apprenticeship or go on to college and do A-levels or go
:54:03. > :54:06.to university. Very few schools can say that. And they are doing it
:54:07. > :54:10.because those companies can come and teach at the UTC. They talk to the
:54:11. > :54:16.students every day. Those students will have experience of doing things
:54:17. > :54:21.with there. These colleges are very typical. Where does the funding come
:54:22. > :54:27.from? From Michael Gove. It comes from you. The state. They are
:54:28. > :54:31.taxpayer funded. We are allowed to spend up to ?10 million on the
:54:32. > :54:37.building and equipment and no more, and then they'll run like academies.
:54:38. > :54:40.I tell you why I want them, because there is a massive shortage of
:54:41. > :54:44.technicians. You were talking about Jackson electricity earlier and that
:54:45. > :54:49.industry is 23% short at the moment of technicians -- gas and
:54:50. > :54:56.electricity. Manufacturing is 30% short. We are not producing. We need
:54:57. > :55:02.the technicians in our universities and schools. You want a new breed of
:55:03. > :55:08.career colleges? How would that differ from a UTC? Career colleges
:55:09. > :55:14.are like catering or hospitality or tourism, creative arts. One will
:55:15. > :55:20.open up an old in Lancashire, linking graphic art with computing.
:55:21. > :55:25.-- open in Oldham. Another one might open in Liverpool. It's the same
:55:26. > :55:30.sort of thing. They are from 8:30am until 5pm every day. Shorter
:55:31. > :55:36.holidays. They wanted and they are very popular. Her school is heavily
:55:37. > :55:37.subscribed. The government has boast about the increase in
:55:38. > :55:42.apprenticeships, but when you look at the figures, quite a lot of
:55:43. > :55:47.apprenticeships are in business studies or health management. They
:55:48. > :55:50.might be needed, but they are not what you would traditionally think
:55:51. > :55:53.of as an apprenticeships. You would think about science, technology,
:55:54. > :55:57.engineering, mathematics and we don't seem to have another
:55:58. > :56:03.apprentices. You are very well briefed. There are 49,000
:56:04. > :56:10.apprentices in managerial studies. That was never an apprentice in the
:56:11. > :56:13.Park -- in the past. That is rebranding somebody doing studies. I
:56:14. > :56:18.met two people sweeping the corridor, and they said they were
:56:19. > :56:22.apprentices. We want more of these colleges. We are going to get more
:56:23. > :56:27.of them, and the thing I'm most proud about, Andrew, is that the
:56:28. > :56:35.target for all of them is when you have a lever at 16 or 18 and nobody
:56:36. > :56:39.gets a jobseeker's allowance. We have targets and we have met them. I
:56:40. > :56:43.think this is a fantastic achievement. Do you think the
:56:44. > :56:48.government should get behind it more? Absolutely. If we're going to
:56:49. > :56:51.compete with emerging economies, I think it's fantastic. Some viewers
:56:52. > :56:58.think politicians are just in it for power and glory, and I don't know
:56:59. > :57:05.how old you are. Don't answer! I am about to become 80. Michael
:57:06. > :57:11.Heseltine is still touring the country with the cities programme.
:57:12. > :57:16.There are generations of politics -- politicians dedicated to serving the
:57:17. > :57:20.country. You once described Michael Gove is very dedicated. Was that
:57:21. > :57:24.good or bad? He's a bit too interested in the academic side. He
:57:25. > :57:29.could do with more interesting in your side? Well, I am spending his
:57:30. > :57:34.money, but wisely. We want a bigger network, and which saw David Cameron
:57:35. > :57:37.saying he wants one of these in every age can the country. We will
:57:38. > :57:41.keep an eye on it. A very interesting development. Sticking
:57:42. > :57:46.with Michael Gove and education, because there's just time to find
:57:47. > :57:49.out the answer to our daily quiz. Can you remember, what is the Shadow
:57:50. > :57:54.Education Secretary say was his favourite thing about Michael Gove?
:57:55. > :57:58.Was it that he's sending his daughter to a state secondary, his
:57:59. > :58:04.good manners, his enthusiasm for history, or his wife's newspaper
:58:05. > :58:07.columns? He does have good manners but I would say it's sending his
:58:08. > :58:12.daughter to a state school. Is that right
:58:13. > :58:19.no. Michael and I share an enthusiasm history. Is based on a
:58:20. > :58:24.deep and sustained reading rather than Michael's more superficial
:58:25. > :58:33.understanding of the past. How very touching. What a backhanded
:58:34. > :58:37.condiment. I think we are done for the day -- backhanded compliment.
:58:38. > :58:42.The one o'clock News is starting on BBC One right now. I will be back on
:58:43. > :58:47.BBC One with David Starkey, Warwick Davis and Laura Greensburg, Alan
:58:48. > :58:55.Johnson and Michael Portillo, and I will be here tomorrow to continue my
:58:56. > :58:57.TV apprenticeship. It's going very well! Goodbye.