:00:39. > :00:46.Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. George Osborne is blowing
:00:47. > :00:50.his own trumpet again. He's just made a speech with a commitment to
:00:51. > :00:54.fight for full employment and argues his changes to the tax and benefits
:00:55. > :00:56.system are the most important for a generation.
:00:57. > :01:00.How does a ?10 a month charge to use the NHS grab you? It's being
:01:01. > :01:03.proposed by the former Labour Health Minister Lord Warner to help plug
:01:04. > :01:05.the funding gap. We'll speak to him live.
:01:06. > :01:08.The impact of climate change is likely to be severe, pervasive and
:01:09. > :01:13.irreversible according to a major new report by the UN. We'll discuss
:01:14. > :01:16.what, if anything, can be done about it.
:01:17. > :01:20.And excessive drinking, expenses scandals and corruption. Just a
:01:21. > :01:23.normal day in the office of the Daily Politics and they also feature
:01:24. > :01:33.pretty highly in the history of Parliament. Surprise surprise. We
:01:34. > :01:38.will take a look back. All that in the next hour. And with
:01:39. > :01:42.us for the first half of the programme is the editor of Labour
:01:43. > :01:48.List Mark Ferguson. Welcome to the programme. Let's start with the
:01:49. > :01:51.proposals from former Labour Health Minister Lord Warner that everyone
:01:52. > :01:54.should start paying a ?10 a month so-called membership charge to use
:01:55. > :01:58.the NHS. The plan is from a report for the think-tank Reform and argues
:01:59. > :02:06.that the money is needed to plug an expected ?30 billion funding gap by
:02:07. > :02:12.2020. So, could this be a goer? Lord Warner is with me now. Before we ask
:02:13. > :02:23.you whether it will catch on, where did you get the funding gap from?
:02:24. > :02:28.Because the now retired or retiring chief executive actually said that
:02:29. > :02:34.is what the gap would be by the end of the decade. Nuffield trust, the
:02:35. > :02:39.independent health think tank said it could be over ?40 billion. We
:02:40. > :02:43.have used the most conservative estimate. I do not think too many
:02:44. > :02:49.people in the know who I have spoken to think there will not be a great
:02:50. > :02:55.financial black hole by the end of this decade for the NHS. Without new
:02:56. > :03:01.sources of funding? We are saying other things as well. The NHS is not
:03:02. > :03:04.as efficient as it could be. We are in good company. The regulator
:03:05. > :03:12.saying the same thing. ?18 billion worth of savings Monitor thinks the
:03:13. > :03:16.NHS could deliver. Anyway you look at it, the funding streams look
:03:17. > :03:21.inadequate to cope with providing a good quality health service with the
:03:22. > :03:25.disease profiles we have and tomography we have got. Health
:03:26. > :03:30.spending is devolved, you are talking about England. But it will
:03:31. > :03:35.go against the grain. It will go against the grain of the majority of
:03:36. > :03:39.people in England who say it has to be free at the point of use, that is
:03:40. > :03:47.what it was setup to. We respect that. We would like to go on putting
:03:48. > :03:51.more money into the NHS but I do not think you can go on shoving more
:03:52. > :03:56.money into the NHS from general taxation with the situation we have
:03:57. > :04:00.got. We have to look for otherwise. We have also got to look at finding
:04:01. > :04:05.creative ways to get people to in gauge with looking after their own
:04:06. > :04:10.health better than we have done so far. Your proposal for a ?10 charge
:04:11. > :04:19.for everybody to become a member of the NHS is what you are proposing is
:04:20. > :04:22.a starting point. We all also -- we are also proposing exemptions. There
:04:23. > :04:28.should be some exemptions for children and poorer people as well.
:04:29. > :04:32.What do you think the reaction will be? The Labour Party has said there
:04:33. > :04:42.is no prospect of this being introduced by them ever. Long term
:04:43. > :04:47.Labour would keep the NHS free at point of use. I commend Lord Warner
:04:48. > :04:53.for thinking seriously about the funding. But you talked about
:04:54. > :04:59.membership of the NHS. One of the wonderful things about the NHS is
:05:00. > :05:03.from the moment you are born, you are a member. You do not have to
:05:04. > :05:08.worry about whether you have paid your bills when you turn up at
:05:09. > :05:12.hospital. It is not affordable and sustainable according to Lord
:05:13. > :05:17.Warner, if we want to treat the wide range of diseases and ageing
:05:18. > :05:21.population. Do you accept that? I am not sure I do. There is still a case
:05:22. > :05:32.for it being funded through general taxation. The NHS... You think
:05:33. > :05:37.people would take an increase in general taxation? If we have a
:05:38. > :05:42.shortfall, it is the kind of conversation we have to be having.
:05:43. > :05:49.Should spending be ring fenced by some of -- ring fenced? I find it
:05:50. > :05:55.difficult how Labour could have given this report serious
:05:56. > :05:59.consideration. You think they are not thinking about it because
:06:00. > :06:05.politically it would not be palatable. They have got to revisit
:06:06. > :06:09.issues around the NHS. What are the other charges you would be looking
:06:10. > :06:17.at? What about charging to go and see your GP, charging for food and
:06:18. > :06:21.hospital? What we have tried to do with the membership idea is not
:06:22. > :06:27.actually have a charge for GPs. We have tried not to put a barrier up.
:06:28. > :06:31.This is an annual subscription. We have suggested one of the things to
:06:32. > :06:37.be considered, as in France and Germany, is a small charge for the
:06:38. > :06:42.hotel costs of being an impatient are particularly if you are in for
:06:43. > :06:46.an exceptionally long time. De Unite union has put out a press release
:06:47. > :06:51.saying you have a conflict of interest because you have links with
:06:52. > :06:57.private health care companies. It is rubbish. They are out of date. They
:06:58. > :07:00.will say there is a conflict of interest where there is this
:07:01. > :07:05.privatisation of the NHS. Is that how you would see it? I have always
:07:06. > :07:09.used the NHS and I will go on using it. But I will be a bit more
:07:10. > :07:14.selective about which hospital I place myself in the charge of. In
:07:15. > :07:17.terms of social insurance, one of the other things mentioned, do you
:07:18. > :07:22.think it would ever be politically palatable? They have it in France
:07:23. > :07:26.which is a far more left-wing country in many ways than our own.
:07:27. > :07:30.Within the UK it is so much within the day to day, session around
:07:31. > :07:38.health care that it is free at the point of use and I do not expect
:07:39. > :07:49.that to change -- within the day to day conversation around health care.
:07:50. > :07:58.Nearly 50% of MPs said it will no longer be free is used. -- free to
:07:59. > :08:02.be used. In 2010, George Osborne said he
:08:03. > :08:05.would eliminate the deficit by 2015. And after years of austerity, it
:08:06. > :08:09.seems that the Chancellor believes that the public finances are in such
:08:10. > :08:12.good shape that it is time for a massive give away. Or as Mr Osborne
:08:13. > :08:18.calls it, the biggest tax reduction in two decades. How will the magical
:08:19. > :08:25.transformation appear? Tomorrow the tax on company profits will be cut
:08:26. > :08:29.by 22% to 21%. This will also be reformed and to help companies grow
:08:30. > :08:34.the tax-free investment allowance will rise to half a million. On
:08:35. > :08:39.Sunday, the lowest paid workers will only start paying tax after the
:08:40. > :08:44.first 10,000. Bosses get another bonus with the national Insurance
:08:45. > :08:50.cut of up to ?2000 per employee. Labour said the Chancellor's smoke
:08:51. > :08:55.and mirrors routine is just an illusion with the typical household
:08:56. > :08:58.?900 worse off since the last election. George Osborne has been
:08:59. > :09:02.speaking just over an hour ago, hailing the new tax regime that
:09:03. > :09:07.begins this week. The focus of the changes to tax was to encourage more
:09:08. > :09:14.into work and the Chancellor's speech contained a rather retro
:09:15. > :09:19.phrase. Over 2 million are still looking for a job. It will take time
:09:20. > :09:24.to fix it but we will not rest while we have so much wasted potential in
:09:25. > :09:28.some plants to be macro parts of the country. I am making a new
:09:29. > :09:36.commitment to fight for full employment in Britain. Making jobs a
:09:37. > :09:39.central goal of our economic plan. The Chancellor. Unfortunately, no
:09:40. > :09:44.Treasury minister was available to discuss the speech. Very strange.
:09:45. > :09:48.They are all fully employed, it seems. We are lucky enough to be
:09:49. > :09:52.joined by the Jessie Norman a member the Treasury Select Committee. Thank
:09:53. > :09:57.you for taking time out of your full-time job. Full employment, what
:09:58. > :10:02.does the Chancellor mean by that? To us it means that everybody has a
:10:03. > :10:08.job. He means that everyone should be in work to the maximum extent
:10:09. > :10:12.possible, the full employable resources of the country should be
:10:13. > :10:18.use. He said he wants us to be at the top of the G7 rankings for the
:10:19. > :10:23.percentage of people in employment, above Canada, Germany, Japan. It is
:10:24. > :10:28.formidable. What is the percentage we are talking about? He used a
:10:29. > :10:33.figure 2 million unemployed, it is 7%. I cannot tell you what the
:10:34. > :10:44.percentage would be but it would take us from 71% to 73% of people
:10:45. > :10:50.employed. OK. In terms of rhetoric it is fairly loaded. George Osborne
:10:51. > :10:55.is parking his tanks on the Labour Party's lawn. The Labour Party has
:10:56. > :10:58.been talking about full employment. It depends on the Metro use. Labour
:10:59. > :11:04.would want to see the number of people unemployed for six months or
:11:05. > :11:08.more reduced to effectively zero. What I would say is that I have not
:11:09. > :11:13.seen anything from George Osborne today in terms of policy that gets
:11:14. > :11:16.us to that point other than it is an aspiration. Labour has the
:11:17. > :11:19.compulsory jobs guarantee that will go in the right direction but I
:11:20. > :11:22.still think they can go further. Osborne will need to go a lot
:11:23. > :11:29.further to park his tanks properly and celebrate. What are the policies
:11:30. > :11:34.that would get closer to that aspiration? The Chancellor
:11:35. > :11:38.specifically distanced himself from the old-style Labour approach which
:11:39. > :11:44.would be pumping up demand, classic Labour approach. He is saying we
:11:45. > :11:49.need to continue to do what we are doing, stimulating the productive
:11:50. > :11:53.potential of the economy through the kinds of tax reductions he has been
:11:54. > :11:57.talking about today. Also, working alongside that on the welfare side
:11:58. > :12:01.to encourage people out of dependency on the state and into
:12:02. > :12:06.some form of productive and happy work. Are you saying the public
:12:07. > :12:09.finances, is the Treasury saying the finances are in such a good state
:12:10. > :12:15.that the country can afford tax giveaways? No, I do not think it
:12:16. > :12:20.design that. If you look at the cost of the giveaways, some are very
:12:21. > :12:25.expensive and some less so -- I do not think it is saying that.
:12:26. > :12:29.Corporation tax reduction is relatively inexpensive. The key
:12:30. > :12:34.point is to send a message being open for business, and economy on
:12:35. > :12:47.the up. The numbers are indisputable. You say they are
:12:48. > :12:51.indisputable but we have a rather large deficit. The Chancellor has
:12:52. > :12:56.gone on about it being the priority. The priority has shifted. Growth has
:12:57. > :13:02.come but we still have the deficit. He has not met his own target. 60%
:13:03. > :13:07.of public spending cuts are still to come. I think that is unfair. On the
:13:08. > :13:13.Treasury committee we had various experts who have made it clear the
:13:14. > :13:17.recession that started in 2008 was the longest and deepest we have ever
:13:18. > :13:22.had. The Chancellor is saying something extraordinarily sensible
:13:23. > :13:26.which is that you cannot ignore the graveside and growth is fundamental
:13:27. > :13:29.to reducing the deficit. Difficult balancing act of stimulator growth
:13:30. > :13:35.and cutting tax and bearing down on debt and deficit. They go together.
:13:36. > :13:41.Difficult for Labour with growth continuing and the Chancellor seems
:13:42. > :13:45.to be able to say he can give things away. Whether or not it is fiscally
:13:46. > :13:50.neutral we can argue about. It makes it difficult for Labour to have a
:13:51. > :13:58.policy that growth was never going to come back. It has. Jobs have been
:13:59. > :14:02.created. Labour was never stupid enough to say that jobs and growth
:14:03. > :14:07.would not come back. Even a dead cat bounce is eventually. Labour will be
:14:08. > :14:12.saying, we were promised growth but it is relatively meagre and late.
:14:13. > :14:16.How many jobs? When will they come? The OBR is talking about 5%
:14:17. > :14:22.unemployment in years to come. It does not feel like full employment
:14:23. > :14:27.to me. Rather than a big tax giveaway. Would it not be prudent to
:14:28. > :14:31.fix the roof if the sun is shining? The roof will be fixed by a growing
:14:32. > :14:35.economy whose tax receipts moved upwards which repay debt. The tax
:14:36. > :14:39.receipts have not been coming in the stock according to the Financial
:14:40. > :14:46.Times today disappointing tax rates and the Chancellor should be
:14:47. > :14:48.worried. Will be more reason for simplification of the tax system so
:14:49. > :14:56.that people know what they should pay. Anyone would think there was an
:14:57. > :14:59.election going on next year. The last budget was not election
:15:00. > :15:05.orientated. Who goes into an election promising widespread
:15:06. > :15:10.tidings up of the pension system? The extraordinary thing actually is
:15:11. > :15:14.that the current fiscal straitjacket imposed by our debt and deficit
:15:15. > :15:17.position makes it very hard for any government to start giving away
:15:18. > :15:20.enormous amounts of money. This is not a giveaway. This is intelligent
:15:21. > :15:28.setting of a long-term course. If you look at the numbers involved,
:15:29. > :15:32.they very. The personal allowance, it is a real commitment. It is not a
:15:33. > :15:42.giveaway. People are allowed to keep more of their money.
:15:43. > :15:49.I think that when we come to the end of this Parliament, and people are
:15:50. > :15:54.asking which tax measure is going to be most memorable, I think that so
:15:55. > :15:58.far, the polls would suggest it will be not the personal allowance, but
:15:59. > :16:03.the cutting off the top rate of tax. And that is even though, the measure
:16:04. > :16:09.was only in place for a few months. However, the impact of saying we are
:16:10. > :16:15.all in it together, and then cutting tax for the top rate taxpayers, it
:16:16. > :16:20.does still resonate. There has been a lot of talk by your own
:16:21. > :16:25.backbenchers about people being dragged into the 50p tax rate. VAT
:16:26. > :16:29.has gone up. There are things which were taken away that you are just
:16:30. > :16:35.restoring, you are not really giving any extra? You cannot call it
:16:36. > :16:43.endless giveaways, and then say we are only restoring things! I can!
:16:44. > :16:48.The key point about the top rate of tax is that it was designed to raise
:16:49. > :16:52.more tax, and in fact, it looks like it is doing that. Unfortunately, no
:16:53. > :16:58.matter what anyone thinks about it, it was a gimmick, and it has been
:16:59. > :17:03.reversed. As the Chancellor has said, the rich are now paying more
:17:04. > :17:07.tax than ever before. What about inheritance tax? When do you think
:17:08. > :17:11.the increase in the threshold for intermittent stacks will happen,
:17:12. > :17:18.raising it to 1 million, as was promised? -- inheritance tax. I have
:17:19. > :17:24.no idea. It was an off-the-cuff remark by the Prime Minister. Is
:17:25. > :17:29.that what it was? I have not assessed that in detail, but I do
:17:30. > :17:39.not think it is a piece of policy at the moment. Thank you very much.
:17:40. > :17:44.It used to be a familiar problem - companies relocating to Britain for
:17:45. > :17:47.cheap labour and materials at the expense of British jobs. Called
:17:48. > :17:48."off-shoring" it could leave communities devastated and
:17:49. > :17:52.governments feeling helpless. Now however, there's a new word in the
:17:53. > :17:55.economic lexicon - "re-shoring" - the phenomena of companies coming
:17:56. > :17:57.back to the UK and bringing jobs with them, and it's on the increase.
:17:58. > :18:13.Here's Alex Forsyth with more. Too many working in manufacturing,
:18:14. > :18:18.re-shoring might sound like a word made up by economists, which it is.
:18:19. > :18:20.But it describes a growing trend. A number of firms are bringing their
:18:21. > :18:29.production operations back to Britain, often from the Far East.
:18:30. > :18:33.Six months ago, these items were manufactured in China. Now, they are
:18:34. > :18:36.made at this factory in Tewkesbury, giving the company more flexibility.
:18:37. > :18:40.They can order smaller quantities, more frequently, and get them to
:18:41. > :18:47.their customers more quickly. Transit costs less. For the
:18:48. > :18:50.retailer, it is a big change, to use this British factory. The firm
:18:51. > :18:54.started out with most suppliers based overseas. This year it hopes
:18:55. > :18:59.about a 10th of its turnover will come from products made in the UK.
:19:00. > :19:05.Manufacturers have become more open to be more flexible with retailers,
:19:06. > :19:08.giving us better payment terms and smaller production batches, so we
:19:09. > :19:12.can try and test new products very quickly, bring them to market very
:19:13. > :19:16.quickly and turn them around very quickly. All of this helps cash
:19:17. > :19:21.flow, and when it comes to costs, rising wages in the Far East mean
:19:22. > :19:27.that making products there is not as cheap as it once was. It is all good
:19:28. > :19:34.news for British manufacturers. This factory now employs 150 people,
:19:35. > :19:38.compared to 60, weight years ago. The new business we have received
:19:39. > :19:43.has enable us to scale up production. We are producing around
:19:44. > :19:47.7000 to raise a week now. We do it in a variety of shapes and sizes,
:19:48. > :19:52.making us very versatile. David Cameron praised this kind of clicks
:19:53. > :19:59.ability during his speech in Davos, which he used to praise the
:20:00. > :20:02.re-shoring revolution. If we make the right decisions, we may see more
:20:03. > :20:07.of what is a small but discernible trend, where some jobs which were
:20:08. > :20:14.once offshore are coming back from East to West.
:20:15. > :20:18.Of course, some firms are still heading overseas to make the most of
:20:19. > :20:21.market opportunities in growing economies. But for the sake of
:20:22. > :20:26.growth in the UK, the hope is that more businesses will once again want
:20:27. > :20:33.to mark their products, made in Britain.
:20:34. > :20:42.And with me in the studio is the chief economist with the
:20:43. > :20:46.manufacturers' organisation, representing UK manufacturing
:20:47. > :20:51.companies. What has the Government done, if anything, to encourage this
:20:52. > :20:55.trend of companies re-shoring? Firstly, this is about what
:20:56. > :20:59.manufacturers are doing. If companies are bringing production
:21:00. > :21:03.back, making different decisions from the ones they were making ten
:21:04. > :21:06.years ago, it is because companies are doing things differently. They
:21:07. > :21:11.are more innovative, more flexible, more responsive to customers.
:21:12. > :21:13.Government has helped to a degree I laying some of the foundations for
:21:14. > :21:18.the kind of business environment which helps with those strategies.
:21:19. > :21:22.More recently we have seen a particular programme which tries to
:21:23. > :21:25.help overcome some of the challenges associated with re-shoring, in terms
:21:26. > :21:31.of finding the right supplier, or making the decision about where best
:21:32. > :21:34.to make your next investment. But this is mostly about what companies
:21:35. > :21:39.have done, and how their strategies have changed. But has the motivation
:21:40. > :21:48.for them to do it, which is always about cost, been a major factor? I
:21:49. > :21:53.would argue it is not just about cost. In some recent research that
:21:54. > :21:56.we did, around one in six companies have bought some production back
:21:57. > :22:00.from a low labour cost economy to the UK. Nobody said it was just for
:22:01. > :22:05.cost purposes. Companies are more innovative. In order to collaborate
:22:06. > :22:09.and be more responsive to customers, there are clear advantages to
:22:10. > :22:14.reducing more in the UK and having more of your supply chain in the UK.
:22:15. > :22:20.This is encouraging for the manufacturing industry, isn't it?
:22:21. > :22:25.Absolutely. For too long, under all sorts of governments, we have
:22:26. > :22:29.knocked down manufacturing, built a business park, set up a call centre
:22:30. > :22:36.and called it a success. But we are not at the levels which we had
:22:37. > :22:38.before the crash yet, are we? We have heard endlessly from the
:22:39. > :22:42.Government about rebalancing the economy, but is that actually
:22:43. > :22:47.realistic, can we really talk about that? I think it is realistic. We
:22:48. > :22:53.just have to be a bit more patient. This was never going to be a single
:22:54. > :22:56.Parliament job. Creating sustainable growth requires us to be much more
:22:57. > :23:00.focused on investment and export driven growth. When you're
:23:01. > :23:10.fracturing has to be a key part of that. It delivers half hour exports.
:23:11. > :23:14.-- manufacturing. Should Labour be focusing -- focusing more of its
:23:15. > :23:25.attention on rebalancing the economy? I think if you look at
:23:26. > :23:29.those economies which got through the financial crash test, they were
:23:30. > :23:33.the ones with the most balanced economies. They did not just rely on
:23:34. > :23:38.a couple of sectors. The British economy is far too biased,
:23:39. > :23:41.geographically, regionally, and also between sectors in the economy. If
:23:42. > :23:46.we can get rid of some of that bias, then we will have much more secure
:23:47. > :23:50.growth to come. What about skills? It was mentioned in the film,
:23:51. > :23:55.actually, do we have the right skills to expand in the way that you
:23:56. > :24:00.would like to see? This has been a key challenge for manufacturing for
:24:01. > :24:03.decades. If we are looking at re-shoring, the jobs which went
:24:04. > :24:07.offshore to begin with are not the ones which will come back. They will
:24:08. > :24:11.be much higher skilled, requiring much higher levels of technical
:24:12. > :24:15.knowledge. And we do have a bit of a mismatch in terms of what is being
:24:16. > :24:20.produced from schools and universities and what the industry
:24:21. > :24:27.needs right now. There is going to be a, isn't there, a skills
:24:28. > :24:31.shortage? Absolutely. There is a skills shortage at the moment.
:24:32. > :24:35.Clearly, there is a lot of effort in terms of providing better careers
:24:36. > :24:42.advice and getting more young people correctly educated. We need to make
:24:43. > :24:45.sure we have got a really responsive training system to make sure that
:24:46. > :24:49.people have access to programmes which can retrain people. That is
:24:50. > :24:57.going to cost money? Absolutely but we really do in the north-east, my
:24:58. > :25:01.dad, my grandparents, they worked in manufacturing, but if I have
:25:02. > :25:06.children, will they be able to work in manufacturing? Probably not.
:25:07. > :25:10.People I went to school with, will they be able to become engineers and
:25:11. > :25:11.draughtsman and welders? Probably not, those skills just do not exist
:25:12. > :25:18.any more. Parliamentarians haven't had the
:25:19. > :25:22.best press over the last few years, and the expenses scandal has been a
:25:23. > :25:25.big part of that. However, far from being a new phenomena, it seems
:25:26. > :25:30.expenses were being used and abused over 700 years ago. Take a look at
:25:31. > :25:37.this. It's a Parliamentary expense claim by one Fulk Peyferer from
:25:38. > :25:40.1309. At the time, knights were invited to Parliament to discuss
:25:41. > :25:44.matters with the King and they were paid four shillings a day, including
:25:45. > :25:49.travel time, and that's twice the amount knights were paid to go to
:25:50. > :25:56.war. The details were unearthed by the Labour MP Chris Bryant whilst
:25:57. > :26:07.researching his book Parliament: A Biography - and he joins me now.
:26:08. > :26:16.What was the motivation? Firstly, the pronunciation is Fulk Peyferer.
:26:17. > :26:24.He will not sue me, will he?! Related to what Disney, many, many
:26:25. > :26:28.generations back, I believe. Quite a lot of them are French names,
:26:29. > :26:32.interestingly. A sickly, I wanted to abolish some of the myths about
:26:33. > :26:36.Parliament. -- basically. The biggest one, which is trotted out so
:26:37. > :26:44.often, is that Westminster is the mother of Parliaments. Isn't it? No,
:26:45. > :26:47.the phrase comes from a Liberal MP in the 19th century, who was
:26:48. > :26:54.basically arguing that even uncle and, who was the mother of
:26:55. > :27:01.Parliaments, not Westminster, -- even England -- did not give rights
:27:02. > :27:05.to everybody. So, it was criticising, not praising, Britain.
:27:06. > :27:11.I wanted to get rid of that idea. The idea that we modern MPs were the
:27:12. > :27:16.worst behaved. You mean there were worst behaved? Tell us about some of
:27:17. > :27:20.the dodgy tales. One of them would be somebody called Ralph, who was
:27:21. > :27:25.invited to the 1283 Parliament in Shrewsbury, which was basically
:27:26. > :27:29.convened to witness the hanging, drawing and quartering of the Welsh
:27:30. > :27:35.Prince, who had rebelled against his English overlords, quite right, too.
:27:36. > :27:41.But Ralph crapping was a Burgess for London. When he went back to London,
:27:42. > :27:45.he fell out with a guy over a woman called Alice. When they tried to
:27:46. > :27:48.beat him up, he sent his friends around to murder the man, and
:27:49. > :27:53.dressed it up as suicide. When this all came out, he died in the tower,
:27:54. > :28:00.Alice was burnt at the stake, and 14 of his friends were hanged. There is
:28:01. > :28:05.a lot of grisly Nass in this book. We showed in the introduction and
:28:06. > :28:09.image of one of the earliest expenses claims, how did you track
:28:10. > :28:15.that down? It is in the National Archives. In fact, where I started
:28:16. > :28:18.from was, who were the very first commoners that we know that came to
:28:19. > :28:24.Parliament? There was a teenager from Yorkshire, he came down, he was
:28:25. > :28:28.paid for shillings a day for travelling and so on. The only
:28:29. > :28:32.reason we know they came is because they have their expenses paid. The
:28:33. > :28:36.point about four shillings, rather than two, was that the king was
:28:37. > :28:41.really keen to have good people. Will you be going out to buy the
:28:42. > :28:44.book? It sounds fascinating. We are lucky in this country to have a rich
:28:45. > :28:49.political history. You often see American tourists being shown around
:28:50. > :28:52.Parliament, and they cannot believe that so much has happened within
:28:53. > :29:00.such a relatively small space. I think the book could be worth a
:29:01. > :29:05.read. But we can be too overly proud sometimes. We forget that chance has
:29:06. > :29:09.often played a role. We all think of her is corpus as being a fundamental
:29:10. > :29:12.British freedom. It has been suspended plenty of times over the
:29:13. > :29:19.years, not only in Northern Ireland. But it is still a British export
:29:20. > :29:23.this can well, it is in Latin, of course, but more importantly, when
:29:24. > :29:29.it came in, it was done in the last few and it's of the Parliament, and
:29:30. > :29:33.it only got through in the House of Lords because one very fat pier was
:29:34. > :29:41.counted for ten votes. It should have lost. And in 1713, we nearly
:29:42. > :29:44.had the same system as in America, where you take the executive out of
:29:45. > :29:49.the legislature. We only didn't because it fell at the very last
:29:50. > :29:54.minute, and there was a tied vote. And tied votes in the House of Lords
:29:55. > :30:01.do not go forward. It is only up to 1800. The second volume is out in
:30:02. > :30:05.September. Let's look at the state of the Labour Party. Rumblings from
:30:06. > :30:09.within. MPs saying that they cannot imagine Ed Miliband as a future
:30:10. > :30:13.Prime Minister, what do you make of it? I really can imagine him as
:30:14. > :30:16.Prime Minister. In a sense, the history work that I have been doing
:30:17. > :30:21.has helped. I think there are lots of ways of being a leader. Winston
:30:22. > :30:25.Churchill and Clement Attlee, completely different in personal
:30:26. > :30:30.style, I would say come and Attlee was the better Prime Minister. But
:30:31. > :30:34.you have got to inspire your troops? I and so often he has been the
:30:35. > :30:38.person who has occupied the political territory first, which
:30:39. > :30:44.everybody else has though of -- everybody else has then clambered
:30:45. > :30:52.onto. What about letters saying that he needs to be more radical? For You
:30:53. > :30:59.always get letters. If people like you are calling for Labour at a
:31:00. > :31:04.critical time to be more credible and radical, what are you trying to
:31:05. > :31:09.say about the Labour leadership? People like me will always be
:31:10. > :31:15.saying, where is the big idea? There is one bit nobody ever comments on
:31:16. > :31:20.and that is that we have a fixed term parliament. By now normally all
:31:21. > :31:24.of these programmes would be about, are we going to have a general
:31:25. > :31:27.election in three weeks time? It is much more difficult for the
:31:28. > :31:32.opposition. If you lay out your policy platform to early, there is a
:31:33. > :31:36.danger all of the good things get nicked by the government and the bad
:31:37. > :31:42.things get torn apart. There is more to come. People were critical last
:31:43. > :31:47.summer about where Labour was going and whether we had enough on the
:31:48. > :31:51.plate. The Labour Party conference showed Ed Miliband's team can pull
:31:52. > :31:57.it out when it is necessary. Very successful conference with you
:31:58. > :32:01.saying on telly, I think we have to many announcements from the Labour
:32:02. > :32:12.Party. Surely not! I will be checking that. In a moment, we'll
:32:13. > :32:16.speak to Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun and Kate Devlin from the Herald.
:32:17. > :32:19.There they are on College Green outside the Houses of Parliament.
:32:20. > :32:22.First, let's have a look at what's happening in Westminster this week.
:32:23. > :32:26.Later today MPs will be debating the Wales Bill that gives new powers to
:32:27. > :32:29.Cardiff. There are likely to be calls for more to be transferred in
:32:30. > :32:32.response to the referendum on Scottish independence.
:32:33. > :32:35.On Tuesday, the main event in the Commons is the Finance Bill that
:32:36. > :32:38.introduces all the big changes from the Budget, including the latest
:32:39. > :32:44.increase in the tax- free personal allowance. On Wednesday night, we'll
:32:45. > :32:48.all be watching the second and final debate between Nick Clegg and Nigel
:32:49. > :32:52.Farage over the EU. The polls called the first one for Farage so we'll
:32:53. > :33:01.see if Clegg can swing it for the pro-Europeans at 7pm on BBC Two. And
:33:02. > :33:05.on Thursday, George Osborne is in front of the Treasury Select
:33:06. > :33:08.Committee where he's likely to be questioned on everything from his
:33:09. > :33:12.Budget to the sell off of the Royal Mail. Let's start by talking about
:33:13. > :33:20.the state of the campaign against Scottish independence. Who is the
:33:21. > :33:28.mole who has let the cat out of the bag, Kate Devlin? They are searching
:33:29. > :33:34.for him but nobody knows yet. Number 10 suggested this morning their
:33:35. > :33:38.energies would going to making the case for the union. Insiders have
:33:39. > :33:43.told me David Cameron is more keen to make the argument and keep the
:33:44. > :33:48.eyes on the prize, it is more important to win the referendum than
:33:49. > :33:54.necessarily find the mole. That does not mean there could not be informal
:33:55. > :33:56.discussions with ministers. Is it not just a truism that of course
:33:57. > :34:03.there is talking behind-the-scenes but they do not want to say so in
:34:04. > :34:08.public? Of course not. I will go further and put my head on the
:34:09. > :34:13.block. I think it is between Oliver Letwin and Vince Cable. We thought
:34:14. > :34:18.it was Philip Hammond yesterday. Yesterday he said, was it you? I
:34:19. > :34:25.don't think so. The construction in the words, what do we do about
:34:26. > :34:32.Trident nuclear missiles? It is a silly phrase that he would not use.
:34:33. > :34:38.Oliver Letwin and Vince Cable, they always say silly things. The point
:34:39. > :34:44.of this is that it is a good talker. That is a plus for the Yes campaign.
:34:45. > :34:49.It gives them undermining to do. At the end of the day, it will not
:34:50. > :34:53.undermine the main argument about currency union. Scots still will not
:34:54. > :34:59.know is the point. They will not know whether we take the pound away
:35:00. > :35:04.from them until it comes along and that is probably enough for them not
:35:05. > :35:13.to take the risk. Do you think the better -- the better together
:35:14. > :35:18.campaigners laddering? -- the Better Together campaign is floundering?
:35:19. > :35:23.Now you are starting to hear beginnings of this rambling from
:35:24. > :35:27.Labour and thes as well. There is an awful lot of pressure on the
:35:28. > :35:33.campaign and the argument they have maimed too negative a case for the
:35:34. > :35:35.union. As the weekend has shown, there is a fundamental
:35:36. > :35:40.misunderstanding. The Better Together campaign and Alistair
:35:41. > :35:44.Darling cannot win the referendum alone. There is a complex
:35:45. > :35:49.relationship with all of the key players. The idea that Number 10 and
:35:50. > :35:53.the Scottish Government would take a back-seat in the past couple of
:35:54. > :35:58.weeks running up to the referendum is nonsense. What they do and the
:35:59. > :36:01.noises that come out of London and Edinburgh could swing it. Let us
:36:02. > :36:09.talk about Labour. Are they in trouble. The polls have narrowed.
:36:10. > :36:13.Rumblings within the party. Economic policy to counter growth under the
:36:14. > :36:19.government. Are they in trouble? Yes, I think they are. Not terminal,
:36:20. > :36:25.they can turn around and do enough to get Ed Miliband his cherished
:36:26. > :36:30.overall majority in 13 months time. They have got to get on with it. My
:36:31. > :36:35.diagnosis is that they have spent almost four years now stroking
:36:36. > :36:39.themselves, doing the easy bit, opposing, shouting about the
:36:40. > :36:44.government's terrible unfairness on this and that. They have not come up
:36:45. > :36:50.with alternatives. The reason is not because it is easier to not come up
:36:51. > :36:56.with real, credible alternatives to grab readers of the Sun perhaps, but
:36:57. > :37:00.also because it is very hard to unite around a single thing that you
:37:01. > :37:08.may well have five different opinions on if you believe some
:37:09. > :37:13.commentators. It is easy to night around nothing. -- unite around
:37:14. > :37:17.nothing. It is only when you start putting out policy ideas, big
:37:18. > :37:21.radical things like taking on the banks, energy price freeze, then you
:37:22. > :37:29.have people disagreeing. What do you think? I agree. They have started to
:37:30. > :37:32.do that this weekend. A chance to remind voters of this idea of
:37:33. > :37:39.reducing tuition fees to ?6,000 which was first floated in 2011 at
:37:40. > :37:43.the conference. They are trying to get these kind of ideas out there.
:37:44. > :37:49.The question is whether they have left it too late. Some Labour MPs
:37:50. > :37:55.worried at around this time ahead of the 2010 general election, the
:37:56. > :37:59.charge was that voters did not know enough about what David Cameron
:38:00. > :38:04.stood for. David Cameron did not win that election of course. Very
:38:05. > :38:11.interesting. Thank you very much. We are joined for the rest of the
:38:12. > :38:14.programme by Jake Berry from the Conservatives, Labour's Shabana
:38:15. > :38:17.Mahmood and Annette Brook from the Liberal Democrats. You may think
:38:18. > :38:20.they're looking a little nervous and you'd be right. Chris Bryant is
:38:21. > :38:25.still here and he's got a short quiz for our MPs to see just how much
:38:26. > :38:34.they know about their place of work. Chris, over to you. Thank you. Who
:38:35. > :38:42.was the Prime Minister throughout the American War of Independence?
:38:43. > :38:52.Silence. I think this is a good way of selling us a couple of your book!
:38:53. > :39:06.A compelling case to read the book. Lord North. What year was the act of
:39:07. > :39:11.union with Scotland? 1603. No. 1707. Where is the last place outside of
:39:12. > :39:26.London that Parliament has sat? Have a guess. York. No. Birmingham. Very
:39:27. > :39:33.loyal. Oxford in 1681. Who was the longest serving Prime Minister of
:39:34. > :39:43.the UK? William Fittall. A little trick on this question. -- William
:39:44. > :39:48.Pitt. It is the Earl of Liverpool, one of the forgotten prime
:39:49. > :39:52.ministers. Put these in order of seniority from the most junior to
:39:53. > :40:06.the most senior. Marquis, Earl, juke, barren and Viscount. Baron,
:40:07. > :40:15.Viscount, Perl, Marquis, juke. Well done! How did you know that one? You
:40:16. > :40:22.would expect the Conservatives to get that right. You failed on that
:40:23. > :40:29.one. You have bucked the party political trend. Were you
:40:30. > :40:35.surprised? They were the easy ones. I sent 12 and there were more
:40:36. > :40:39.difficult ones. The difficulty is that for the most part we boast
:40:40. > :40:48.about British history and many of us do not know much. It is vast in
:40:49. > :40:54.terms of how much you have to know. URA historian. It is a strong
:40:55. > :41:01.argument for having a broader National Curriculum. I did not take
:41:02. > :41:05.history up to a level which is shameful and makes me very nervous
:41:06. > :41:08.about these questions. There are curiouser things like people think
:41:09. > :41:15.that women were always banned from voting until the 20th century. Women
:41:16. > :41:19.voted previously. It was only in 1832 that it explicitly said only
:41:20. > :41:26.men could vote. Women were able to vote for a Luxton is -- vote for
:41:27. > :41:34.elections for Sexton 's and things like that. You have shamed us.
:41:35. > :41:45.Volume two is out in September. Enough publicity! We have gone from
:41:46. > :41:50.being the daily Potter looks just like with the Daily Politics to the
:41:51. > :41:54.Chris Bryant book show. The impact of climate change, we are told it is
:41:55. > :42:01.going to be severe, evasive and irreversible. It comes from a report
:42:02. > :42:04.published by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
:42:05. > :42:08.Change which argues that nobody on the planet is going to be untouched
:42:09. > :42:11.by the problem. However, it's not all doom and gloom and the study
:42:12. > :42:15.does emphasise that things can be done to mitigate the worst of the
:42:16. > :42:18.effects. I'm joined now by Tom Mitchell, head of climate change at
:42:19. > :42:19.the Overseas Development Institut, an independent think-tank of
:42:20. > :42:25.international development and humanitarian issues. Welcome. What
:42:26. > :42:29.did you think of the report? I think it is the single most complete study
:42:30. > :42:33.ever conducted on the impacts of climate change. It was completed
:42:34. > :42:38.over seven years involving nearly 600 authors and covering about
:42:39. > :42:43.12,000 scientific articles. It is a truly impressive piece of work. It
:42:44. > :42:50.does provide us with some very clear messages about the future Thomas on
:42:51. > :42:58.calling it doom laden. -- about the future, some calling it doom laden.
:42:59. > :43:06.Is it a llama 's? Human systems are at stake if action is not taken --
:43:07. > :43:11.is it alarmist? It sounds apocalyptic. It is but for very good
:43:12. > :43:15.reason. We have seen evidence from across the studies to show as those
:43:16. > :43:20.things are correct. Let us review some of the key messages. For the
:43:21. > :43:25.UK, more heat waves are more droughts, water shortages and we
:43:26. > :43:28.will see more flood events caused by extreme reciprocation. Overseas, we
:43:29. > :43:35.may see food shortages, it may impact on our pockets in the
:43:36. > :43:38.supermarket. Climate change may exacerbate conflict causing
:43:39. > :43:43.insecurity and more migration. The messages are serious. They are there
:43:44. > :43:49.for us to take account of. As I said, if we act now, we can avoid
:43:50. > :43:53.the worst. What should politicians do? Politicians in the UK
:43:54. > :43:58.historically have had a good track record of working on climate change.
:43:59. > :44:02.The climate change Bill gives us very clear indications of what we
:44:03. > :44:09.need to do in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We have
:44:10. > :44:14.invested in flood defences, maybe not enough. The track record is
:44:15. > :44:18.good. The last period, some would argue, has not seen such good
:44:19. > :44:23.progress. We have got to stay on track and provide resources. In the
:44:24. > :44:30.UK, because it might be deemed as tomorrow's problem, we may not
:44:31. > :44:38.always invest in the way we need to. Is it inarguable now that I'm a
:44:39. > :44:42.change is man-made? -- that climate change is man-made? 14,000 academic
:44:43. > :44:51.studies on climate change, less than 1%, 0.7% have ever questioned
:44:52. > :44:57.climate change as a Norman. -- as a Norman. The evidence is as strong as
:44:58. > :45:02.the links between smoking and lung cancer. It is just a different
:45:03. > :45:06.timescale, politicians can kick it down the track. This report says it
:45:07. > :45:16.has got to stop and action needs to be taken now.
:45:17. > :45:23.Do you agree with the report? Absolutely. Anyone who read this
:45:24. > :45:27.report this morning, or listen on the radio, like I did, will know
:45:28. > :45:32.that it is absolutely stark. This is an issue we have to deal with today,
:45:33. > :45:36.because the consequences in several decades was no time will be huge.
:45:37. > :45:42.The additions traditionally like getting their hands dirty, sorting
:45:43. > :45:51.the economy out. -- politicians. This kind of longer term problems
:45:52. > :45:56.for 50-100 years ahead takes a lot more political will, and cross-party
:45:57. > :46:00.support, to make sure that we get a good, long-term plan for dealing
:46:01. > :46:04.with the problems of climate change. As the Government shied away from
:46:05. > :46:08.making decisions because of austerity, and because we heard from
:46:09. > :46:11.George Osborne saying he did not want to take any unilateral action
:46:12. > :46:15.because it was not affordable, do you think that is going to store up
:46:16. > :46:18.problems in the future? I think we have made good progress in this
:46:19. > :46:21.party. We said we would be the greenest government ever. And we
:46:22. > :46:27.have cut the amount of energy the Government uses by 10%, just in four
:46:28. > :46:30.years. We have launched the green investment bank, we are building new
:46:31. > :46:35.nuclear power stations to move away from fossil fuels. But you are
:46:36. > :46:38.scrapping the green levy. The Prime Minister has boasted about the fact
:46:39. > :46:43.that the eco-levy is going to go, so that people's energy bills will come
:46:44. > :46:46.down - was that the right thing to do? We have to make things
:46:47. > :46:50.affordable for the taxpayer. People have a real issue with energy
:46:51. > :46:54.bills, and I think it has been the right thing to do to help people
:46:55. > :47:00.have a reduction of about 15-?20 a month. Do you agree with that? If it
:47:01. > :47:04.was going to be the greenest government ever, and critics would
:47:05. > :47:14.dispute that, why is it that you as Liberal Democrats have signed up to
:47:15. > :47:19.scrapping the green levy? Coalition is a matter of negotiation. If we
:47:20. > :47:23.were governing alone, I think decisions might have been different.
:47:24. > :47:28.I would describe us as being a green government, but I would have liked a
:47:29. > :47:32.stronger measures to remain. We do have a real conflict between
:47:33. > :47:35.affecting the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society at
:47:36. > :47:40.the moment and tackling climate change. What I think is the big
:47:41. > :47:42.thing we have to grapple with is coming in with the necessary
:47:43. > :47:49.measures, but putting proper protection in. I just think while we
:47:50. > :47:52.have got so many hits on welfare payments at the moment, it is really
:47:53. > :47:56.difficult to get the balance. It is something I am quite uncomfortable
:47:57. > :48:02.with, but I would say, we have a proud record, the doubling of energy
:48:03. > :48:06.by renewable sources, for example, but also, what is important to me is
:48:07. > :48:13.the fact of being in Europe, being at the table, taking a leading role
:48:14. > :48:16.in negotiating EU targets on carbon emissions. Very, very important to
:48:17. > :48:24.tackle climate change across Europe. Do you agree with that? We
:48:25. > :48:26.do not want to get into a debate about the European Union. But I
:48:27. > :48:30.think it is right, on the issue of Europe, but we need to get out and
:48:31. > :48:36.make a positive argument about why we should stay in Europe, which is
:48:37. > :48:39.what I believe. But politicians should not be scared of the
:48:40. > :48:41.electorate, it should be for the British people to decide. Let's have
:48:42. > :48:46.that referendum, which the Conservatives have promised, in
:48:47. > :48:51.2017, and put the issue to bed for the next 50 years. The trouble is,
:48:52. > :49:01.in austerity, who should pay for these measures, for green measures?
:49:02. > :49:04.The truth is that the green agenda presents us with incredible
:49:05. > :49:08.opportunities for growth. So, the green economy is one of the few
:49:09. > :49:12.areas where actually we have a positive balance of trade with
:49:13. > :49:15.China, for example. So, if there was more will from this government, we
:49:16. > :49:21.could use this as a real opportunity to boost skills and wages, get those
:49:22. > :49:25.high skilled, high wage jobs which our economy will need. It is a false
:49:26. > :49:28.choice to say it is one or the other. I am astonished at the
:49:29. > :49:33.attempt by Jake to rewrite the history of his own government's time
:49:34. > :49:37.in office. This is a government and Prime Minister which does not know
:49:38. > :49:40.from one week to the next whether they believe in man-made climate
:49:41. > :49:47.change or not. One week we will hear about Breen things, the next we will
:49:48. > :49:52.hear, it is all green rubbish. This government does not know what it is
:49:53. > :49:55.doing. Actually, the green agenda requires consistently do ship, and I
:49:56. > :50:00.do not think we have had that from David Cameron. If we look at the
:50:01. > :50:03.leader of the opposition, who was Energy Secretary in the last
:50:04. > :50:06.government, his record is not as good as the record this government
:50:07. > :50:10.has had in power. What about the rhetoric about weeing crap, that
:50:11. > :50:18.does not give a clear message, does it? -- green crap. Well, factually,
:50:19. > :50:23.we are the greenest government ever. We have reduced the amount of energy
:50:24. > :50:29.we use as a government. Was that the right rhetoric to use? It is all
:50:30. > :50:33.about making our businesses competitive, it is not about
:50:34. > :50:37.increasing people's energy bills, it is about a long-term solution, make
:50:38. > :50:45.sure that Britain remains... Can I just come in? We have set up the
:50:46. > :50:49.green investment bank. How much has actually been loaned out from that
:50:50. > :50:53.bank? We are now talking about billions. The loans are beginning to
:50:54. > :50:57.go out as we speak. They are going to local authorities for renewing
:50:58. > :51:02.their street lighting. We know that 35,000 green jobs have been
:51:03. > :51:07.created, and I would hope to see very many more. I think out of all
:51:08. > :51:14.deep recessions, there is a type of industry which comes through, and in
:51:15. > :51:18.this one, I personally want to see the green sector grow and grow. We
:51:19. > :51:22.have got our investment in offshore wind, for example, massive
:51:23. > :51:27.investment in renewables, and lots of exciting green projects across
:51:28. > :51:30.the country, including one, a major recycling plant, in my constituency.
:51:31. > :51:38.The Green Party criticises the Government all the time, saying the
:51:39. > :51:43.rhetoric is not directed at policies which would make a big difference,
:51:44. > :51:47.do you accept that? I just feel as a nation, we are not grasping the
:51:48. > :51:52.immediacy of this. I am really concerned for my grandchild. It does
:51:53. > :51:56.mean actually getting the message out there, not shying away from it.
:51:57. > :52:00.This is something which has got to be tackled now. But as we have
:52:01. > :52:02.suggested, we have got to get the right balance between taxation and
:52:03. > :52:09.protect young people on lower incomes. This does sound alarmist,
:52:10. > :52:13.whether it is right or wrong, and for a lot of people, they will just
:52:14. > :52:18.think, there is nothing I can do about it, there is nothing I can do
:52:19. > :52:22.to affect what is inevitable to some extent. It is up to governments, it
:52:23. > :52:26.is to other countries. Well, actually, I think there is an
:52:27. > :52:29.appetite in the country for people to think about the changes they
:52:30. > :52:34.could make in their own daily lives, which would contribute towards lower
:52:35. > :52:37.emissions, and as becoming more green, as an economy, as a nation.
:52:38. > :52:41.There is a responsibility on government to make the case to the
:52:42. > :52:46.public about the kinds of changes we need to make. But that requires
:52:47. > :52:51.leadership. We are not going to hit the climate change target for 2020,
:52:52. > :52:56.are we, that has gone already? And obviously, there is concern that the
:52:57. > :53:00.Liberal Democrats had to accept a watering down of the 2030 target,
:53:01. > :53:04.but we do have the proviso in the energy bill so that it can be
:53:05. > :53:09.implemented in 2016. There is a great deal of effort going in to
:53:10. > :53:13.meet the European targets, and that is really important. We have got a
:53:14. > :53:20.good enough record that we can hold our heads up high, and we have got
:53:21. > :53:28.China bringing in targets now, that has to be good progress. But on your
:53:29. > :53:31.point about investment, it was fantastic last week to see all of
:53:32. > :53:35.those new jobs created in the north-east, with the wind turbine
:53:36. > :53:37.plant, building them here in Britain. That is what we have got to
:53:38. > :53:43.focus on. Parents who deny their children
:53:44. > :53:46.affection could face prosecution under new proposals the Government
:53:47. > :53:49.is considering this morning. It follows a campaign for a so-called
:53:50. > :53:52."Cinderella law" from the charity Action for Children. They argue that
:53:53. > :53:54.whilst there's legislation already in place for physical abuse,
:53:55. > :54:01.emotional abuse can cause significant harm and more needs to
:54:02. > :54:07.be done to clamp down on it. Joining me now is a representative of Action
:54:08. > :54:12.for Children. How exactly will this be enforced or proved? So, emotional
:54:13. > :54:17.abuse can be noticed now, and it is noticed, particularly through the
:54:18. > :54:22.care system, with specialist child psychiatrists and others sporting
:54:23. > :54:27.the signs of emotional harm and harm which is done. We are asking for
:54:28. > :54:31.that expertise to be applied to the other side of the law, which is the
:54:32. > :54:35.criminal law. The UK is one of the only countries in the Western world
:54:36. > :54:38.which does not include all forms of child abuse in its child protection
:54:39. > :54:43.legislation. What we have been asking for over the last three years
:54:44. > :54:47.is for this to be updated. The law as it stands dates back to 1933. We
:54:48. > :54:52.have been working with political parties across the spectrum to look
:54:53. > :54:55.at an alternative. We have spoken to police, social workers and others
:54:56. > :55:00.about what we can do to close this loophole. But will it lead to people
:55:01. > :55:03.reporting their neighbours or friends to social services and
:55:04. > :55:06.police for spurious reasons? We need to be very clear that this is not
:55:07. > :55:11.about prosecuting struggling parents, or a debate about good or
:55:12. > :55:16.bad parenting. When we mean child abuse, we are talking about cruelty,
:55:17. > :55:22.people who resist attempts to help them, people who resist attempts
:55:23. > :55:29.made by organisations such as Action for Children to improve parenting
:55:30. > :55:33.capacity and skill. In most cases, parents are able to improve their
:55:34. > :55:35.parenting skills. But in some small number of cases, we have to be ready
:55:36. > :55:43.for the prospect that there are people who seek to intentionally
:55:44. > :55:48.abuse do you support the measure? I think it is a good thing if the law
:55:49. > :55:52.is updated to include the full range of abuse which children might suffer
:55:53. > :55:56.from, including emotional neglect and emotional abuse, which can have
:55:57. > :56:00.just as devastating an impact on a child is physical or sexual abuse,
:56:01. > :56:03.which we talk about a lot more. I think it is good that the law should
:56:04. > :56:06.reflect behaviour which we find to be unacceptable, and which can
:56:07. > :56:11.attract punishment in the criminal law. Why has it not been introduced
:56:12. > :56:16.before, it sounds like we are way behind in terms of legislation in
:56:17. > :56:20.this area? Can I start by saying that Action for Children have run a
:56:21. > :56:23.fantastic campaign. Anyone who has been getting the Tube into
:56:24. > :56:31.Westminster will have seen their campaign about the law not having
:56:32. > :56:34.been updated for 80 years. We believe it is imperative that we do
:56:35. > :56:38.everything we can to protect our children. I think it is a welcome
:56:39. > :56:42.development in the law. I think it will empower local authority social
:56:43. > :56:46.workers, with the fantastic work they do, to have full criminal,
:56:47. > :56:51.legal protection behind them to go out and protect children. Do you
:56:52. > :56:54.back it as well? I do, I was a sponsor of the private members'
:56:55. > :56:59.bill. Obviously, the Government listened carefully and took it away
:57:00. > :57:04.to look at how practical it was to introduce it. How big a problem is
:57:05. > :57:07.it averaged what I think this is, it is one more tool in actually making
:57:08. > :57:13.sure our children are protected properly. It is obviously difficult
:57:14. > :57:18.to gather evidence when we are talking about emotional abuse. But
:57:19. > :57:22.when you think of child neglect, the baby lying there with no interaction
:57:23. > :57:27.whatsoever, of course, the first step is to put lots of support in
:57:28. > :57:32.parenting skills in, but there comes a point where it goes beyond that. I
:57:33. > :57:38.think this will help all agencies to work together. Time after time, we
:57:39. > :57:47.get these serious case reviews, and it is the same story. I think this
:57:48. > :57:50.is going to put it on the radar. Tragically, we still have these
:57:51. > :57:54.cases which are every now and then brought to light. With the openness
:57:55. > :57:58.and transparency, compared to decades ago, why are these things
:57:59. > :58:04.still happening, will this really impact on the state of children who
:58:05. > :58:07.are genuinely neglected? We have do continually look at the systems
:58:08. > :58:11.which are in place. In lots of the cases which have come into the
:58:12. > :58:14.media, we have had multi-agency meetings, with all of the key
:58:15. > :58:19.players getting into a room to speak together. Sometimes when you read
:58:20. > :58:31.those reports, it is as if nothing has happened. These meetings should
:58:32. > :58:34.not just be a talking shop. In terms of adding in this idea of emotional
:58:35. > :58:37.neglect, we have to make sure that we have guidelines for
:58:38. > :58:41.practitioners, and we have to trust in the instincts of social workers
:58:42. > :58:45.and police officers at the coal face. We
:58:46. > :58:50.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is
:58:51. > :58:54.starting over on BBC One now.