:00:38. > :00:42.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Sold off on the
:00:43. > :00:47.cheap - that's the verdict of the public spending watchdog on the
:00:48. > :00:51.privatisation of Royal Mail. It's now worth billions of pounds more
:00:52. > :00:53.than its original price tag. Directly- elected mayors were
:00:54. > :00:58.supposed to transform local democracy. But do they place too
:00:59. > :01:02.much power in one person's hands? David Cameron promised the greenest
:01:03. > :01:09.government ever, but has it lived up to its billing?
:01:10. > :01:13.And Bonar Law, the Canadian-born British Prime Minister - proof that
:01:14. > :01:18.you can get on in politics here if you have a foreign accent?
:01:19. > :01:24.All that in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme today is
:01:25. > :01:30.the Australian-born leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett.
:01:31. > :01:33.Welcome to the programme. Let's start by talking veg. Fruit and veg,
:01:34. > :01:36.actually. The Government's being advised that five a day might not be
:01:37. > :01:41.enough and that we'd be even healthier if we ate seven a day. The
:01:42. > :01:44.advice comes from a study of over 65,000 men and women which indicated
:01:45. > :01:48.the more fruit and vegetables people ate, the less likely they were to
:01:49. > :01:55.die, at any given age. One of the study's authors, Dr Jenny Mindell,
:01:56. > :02:00.joins us now. Is it much up his surprise that if you eat more and
:02:01. > :02:07.veg you will have a healthier lifestyle? -- is it much of a
:02:08. > :02:12.surprise? We wanted to ask two questions. Is there a benefit if you
:02:13. > :02:17.are having some, even if not five a day? The answer was yes. Is there
:02:18. > :02:31.more benefit if you eat more than five a day? The answer was yes. What
:02:32. > :02:34.-- what is the extra benefit? The extra benefit tween five and seven
:02:35. > :02:42.is a bit less than between nine and two but it was still substantial --
:02:43. > :02:52.between none and two. People who had seven or more portions had a 42%
:02:53. > :02:58.reduction in risk of dying of anything compared to those eating
:02:59. > :03:04.less than one portion. We also found evidence it help reduce cancer
:03:05. > :03:10.deaths and heart disease and strokes. Many people struggle to eat
:03:11. > :03:14.five portions. Are you setting a potential target that is
:03:15. > :03:19.unachievable? We are not setting a target. That is not our place. We
:03:20. > :03:23.are showing that whatever you are eating, if you can manage to eat
:03:24. > :03:28.more fruit and vegetables, particularly vegetables, it is
:03:29. > :03:34.better for you. It needs to be more afraid -- more affordable and
:03:35. > :03:39.available. At the moment, junk food, high fat and sugar food, they are
:03:40. > :03:43.all around us. The industry spends billions advertising to children. We
:03:44. > :03:51.need fruit and vegetables to be advertised. These are the foods that
:03:52. > :03:57.are not quite as easy to get hold of. Would you like the government to
:03:58. > :04:00.change its target? What the government needs to do is introduce
:04:01. > :04:03.policies to make it easier for people to eat more fruit and
:04:04. > :04:12.vegetables. The first step is getting one and -- one in four
:04:13. > :04:18.adults who are not eating anything to eat some everyday. Five was set
:04:19. > :04:21.before it was considered a reasonable target and we are showing
:04:22. > :04:26.that for people who are eating five a day there may be even more benefit
:04:27. > :04:32.if they increase that. I am not suggesting the targets are changed,
:04:33. > :04:37.just the policies. You mean public health policies, awareness
:04:38. > :04:41.campaigns. Not awareness campaigns. Just telling people does not do very
:04:42. > :04:46.much except increase inequalities. Fruit and veg are much more
:04:47. > :04:49.expensive here than in many other countries. In Mediterranean
:04:50. > :04:53.countries, they would be laughing and thinking it was an April fool
:04:54. > :04:58.story because most people in many of these countries already eat far more
:04:59. > :05:04.fruit and vegetables than we do. The price needs to come down. Sugary
:05:05. > :05:07.drinks and high fat and high salt snack foods need to be more
:05:08. > :05:11.expensive. The advertising needs to be the other way round, promoting
:05:12. > :05:18.fruit and vegetables. Thank you very much. Sugar was mentioned. There is
:05:19. > :05:23.quite a lot of sugar in quite a lot of fruit. There is so much
:05:24. > :05:27.contradictory dietary advice. Are we now saying it is all right to eat
:05:28. > :05:32.lots of fruit with high levels of sugar? Looking at the detail of what
:05:33. > :05:36.the scientists say, vegetables is top and fruit is next and everything
:05:37. > :05:41.else is well behind it. It is important we do not eat up
:05:42. > :05:47.individual people. We have to look at the model of why our society...
:05:48. > :05:50.We are not any different to the Mediterranean countries, we are not
:05:51. > :05:58.different people. We have a difference is done, -- different
:05:59. > :06:02.system, supermarket -based. We import more than 90% of the fruit we
:06:03. > :06:07.eat. It is expensive. When our currency went down against the euro,
:06:08. > :06:11.there was a leap in terms of the poorest 20% of people stopping
:06:12. > :06:16.eating fruit because they could not afford it. We have to look at the
:06:17. > :06:21.long working hours culture which means people think they do not have
:06:22. > :06:26.time to cook. We have to look at the structural situation. It is about
:06:27. > :06:29.education then? There needs to be education in terms of cooking food
:06:30. > :06:35.which would cut down the cost but it takes more time. it does. Improving
:06:36. > :06:39.cooking in schools is an important issue but it is important we look at
:06:40. > :06:45.the structure of society which is destined to make us unhealthy which
:06:46. > :06:50.creates huge costs for the NHS. We were told for years to cut down on
:06:51. > :06:54.levels of fat, particularly saturated fat. Now we are told that
:06:55. > :06:59.there are good fats and bad fats and that sugar is the devil in the diet.
:07:00. > :07:02.You can understand why people are sceptical about the endless advice
:07:03. > :07:10.about how they should eat and what they should eat. There has been a
:07:11. > :07:14.lot of bad advice. We know that if eat things as close to how they came
:07:15. > :07:18.out of the field as possible, that is the way to go. It is quite
:07:19. > :07:26.simple. We have to create the framework to enable people to do
:07:27. > :07:33.that. What would the Green Party do? We want to restore market gardens
:07:34. > :07:37.around towns and cities. Would it reduce the cost quest to mark it
:07:38. > :07:41.would create jobs and help the economy overall so it is part of a
:07:42. > :07:47.broader package -- would it reduce the costs? We need a whole range of
:07:48. > :07:49.things. There are too many people in our society who have to buy the
:07:50. > :08:00.cheapest thing which is the worst thing. Thank you very much.
:08:01. > :08:03.The sale of Royal Mail would be good for customers, staff and taxpayers,
:08:04. > :08:06.ministers told us last autumn. But now the National Audit Office
:08:07. > :08:08.criticised the timing of the sell-off, the Government's cautious
:08:09. > :08:12.approach to pricing the offer and failure to hold back some of the
:08:13. > :08:16.holding for later sale. The shares were sold at ?3.30, but on the first
:08:17. > :08:22.day of trading they had risen to ?4.45, a rise of 38%. Five months
:08:23. > :08:28.on, the price had risen by 72% to ?6.15 a share. The difference in
:08:29. > :08:34.value between the shares when they were sold and now is around ?1.5
:08:35. > :08:37.billion. The National Audit Office concludes that the Government could
:08:38. > :08:42.have achieved better value for the taxpayer. The Business Secretary
:08:43. > :08:53.Vince Cable had this to say this morning. He was asked about the
:08:54. > :08:58.report as he left Downing Street. Were you juiced by the City over
:08:59. > :09:05.Royal Mail? Absolutely not. I will be dealing with it in Parliament --
:09:06. > :09:11.where you Tube at? Unfortunately no minister from the
:09:12. > :09:14.Department for business one of a -- Department for business was
:09:15. > :09:18.available. I wonder why. Where are you all hiding? I'm joined now by
:09:19. > :09:22.the Shadow Business Minister Ian Murray and the City commentator,
:09:23. > :09:27.Louise Cooper. Well done to the two of you for coming on. Maybe people
:09:28. > :09:31.did not want to defend this decision. How much do we think
:09:32. > :09:39.taxpayers lost here? It is always difficult to tell. About ?1.5
:09:40. > :09:44.billion. They lost ?750 million on the first day of trading which is
:09:45. > :09:50.quite an achievement. With the benefit of hindsight, how could the
:09:51. > :09:55.government have done it differently? I think the first thing that very
:09:56. > :10:02.early on in the book building process, when the process starts, by
:10:03. > :10:05.the end of day one, institutional investors, the fund management
:10:06. > :10:09.groups, they had come in and put orders in the book and the total
:10:10. > :10:15.amount they said they wanted to buy was already at the end of day one
:10:16. > :10:19.3.6 times the total amount that were for sale. Straightaway on day one
:10:20. > :10:24.they should have seen this was going to be a hot issue and there would be
:10:25. > :10:27.massive demand and they should have readjusted to price. Looking at the
:10:28. > :10:31.National Audit Office document, it says very clearly the government
:10:32. > :10:36.asked their advisers, don't you think we should put the price up?
:10:37. > :10:40.The advisers said no. Vince Cable should not have listened. He spent
:10:41. > :10:49.far too much time relying on other people. Was he had? He was hard. The
:10:50. > :11:00.fund management community who want the cheapest price they can get. He
:11:01. > :11:03.listened far too much to them. The second thing he did was he spent far
:11:04. > :11:08.too much time listening to his advisers, the very banks that have
:11:09. > :11:14.contributed to the financial crisis and been tainted in the past. He
:11:15. > :11:19.relied on them too much. You would not have done anything differently?
:11:20. > :11:23.We would not have sold it. There was a part privatisation in the previous
:11:24. > :11:28.Labour government but times have changed. The report produced by the
:11:29. > :11:31.previous Labour government was pretty much put through in terms of
:11:32. > :11:35.changing the regulator environment, getting long-term liabilities of the
:11:36. > :11:41.pensions into the Treasury, so the Royal Mail was in a much better
:11:42. > :11:47.position. You would have said no to any sort of sell-off? We did not
:11:48. > :11:51.want to sell it off and that is still our position. The government
:11:52. > :11:57.sold at too quickly and at the wrong time. The report is a damning
:11:58. > :12:01.indictment of the fact that they wanted to get it through for
:12:02. > :12:08.ideological reasons before the next election. Would that have been the
:12:09. > :12:12.right thing to do, not to sell it off at all? No, I believe what we
:12:13. > :12:18.will see is a substantially leaner, fitter and more efficient Royal
:12:19. > :12:23.Mail. The report states that under commercial management, it will...
:12:24. > :12:28.The benefits to Royal Mail should the considerable. My fear is not
:12:29. > :12:32.that it should not have been done, but when it is done, it will be
:12:33. > :12:36.poorly regulated and run far more for the benefit of shareholders than
:12:37. > :12:41.for the population. That is years in the future. I have no problem with
:12:42. > :12:47.them selling it but they needed to sell it at the right price. Quite
:12:48. > :12:50.clearly, it was sold too cheap. But it was the right thing to do in
:12:51. > :13:00.principle. It was the wrong price and timing. It was driving in the
:13:01. > :13:08.public sector. It just started to thrive. -- it was thriving. The
:13:09. > :13:10.Royal Mail needed money for investment. They could have come
:13:11. > :13:16.from profits. They were projected to make all profits this year and next
:13:17. > :13:21.year. It was unnecessary to sell it. They sold it cheap. The public
:13:22. > :13:25.purse has lost ?750 million on day one. The Business Secretary and
:13:26. > :13:36.minister has to explain and apologise. Was it thriving? It was
:13:37. > :13:43.recovering. That is what enabled the government to make the tough
:13:44. > :13:49.decisions. In terms of what you are calling for today, do you think
:13:50. > :13:58.Vince Cable should position his -- consider his position? This is the
:13:59. > :14:02.most damning report I have read. He did not take advice and listen to
:14:03. > :14:07.the opposition. He did take the advice, that is the criticism. He
:14:08. > :14:10.took the advice from 16 of the 17 investors who were going to be the
:14:11. > :14:18.long-term stability investors and they did not give him the right
:14:19. > :14:20.advice. 12 of them have now sold a large proportion of their
:14:21. > :14:26.shareholdings. They came in for quick profit and Vince Cable should
:14:27. > :14:32.have known that. The apology is irrelevant. He has proved himself
:14:33. > :14:37.incompetent because he was had by the fund management groups. The
:14:38. > :14:42.important long-term stable fund management groups, most of them have
:14:43. > :14:45.sold out. He was had by the advisers. The government said to the
:14:46. > :14:52.banks involved don't you think we should raise the price by 20% better
:14:53. > :14:57.mark the advisers said, no, there is a strike action. He did not stand
:14:58. > :15:02.up. He listened to much to the banks and fund management. He did not
:15:03. > :15:08.stand up and think for himself or stop was he in a position to stand
:15:09. > :15:12.up to them? Michael Fallon has defended the decision saying that it
:15:13. > :15:17.was in an environment where industrial action was being
:15:18. > :15:21.threatened and to some extent the environment would not have been
:15:22. > :15:26.right to hold out longer. Change the timing. The report says the
:15:27. > :15:29.timescale... It was driven through for ideological and political
:15:30. > :15:35.purposes. They were trying to plug a hole in the Chancellor's budget.
:15:36. > :15:38.?750 million loss to the taxpayer is something Vince Cable should reflect
:15:39. > :15:44.on. Of course Michael Fallon says it was successful. But if I wanted to
:15:45. > :15:55.sell anything at below market value, there would be more purchasers than
:15:56. > :15:59.sellers. Overcautious is what they said. Because of the environment out
:16:00. > :16:04.of the recession, the government was not confident enough to sell it
:16:05. > :16:06.later. Vince Cable was given advice that the price was on the low side
:16:07. > :16:12.and he chose not to accept the advice. It was very clear at the end
:16:13. > :16:20.of day one, the demand from institutional investors was already
:16:21. > :16:24.a multiple. It was very obvious. The government did ask, can we increase
:16:25. > :16:29.the price by 20p? The banks said, don't do that. It is in the
:16:30. > :16:34.interests of the banks as advisers to protect fund management clients.
:16:35. > :16:42.Massive conflict of interest. Everyone seems to be looking after
:16:43. > :16:46.their own interests. The institutional investors took all the
:16:47. > :16:51.shares and the public and retail investors got very few. What would
:16:52. > :16:56.you have done differently in the Green Party. Absolutely not
:16:57. > :17:02.privatised the Royal mail. Hopefully this will be the last privatisation
:17:03. > :17:06.of the public services. This is a failed model. There is no magic that
:17:07. > :17:12.comes from private sector management. It means putting public
:17:13. > :17:19.money into private hands. Slashing the pay and conditional workers and
:17:20. > :17:25.it is a failed model. There are no efficiencies. And we have a fraud
:17:26. > :17:34.ridden, deeply dishonest financial sector. Five years after the crash
:17:35. > :17:39.we have failed to make any reforms. They are out for themselves, you
:17:40. > :17:47.admit it. Why did Vince Cable not realise that. Why was he sucked into
:17:48. > :17:50.believing that. He was trying to sell it for ideological reasons
:17:51. > :17:58.because of the next general election. It had to go. But is at
:17:59. > :18:03.the answer to renationalise? Very much so. And there is now a Private
:18:04. > :18:08.Members Bill before Parliament. The privatisation of the railways is
:18:09. > :18:14.costing us more than ?1 billion a year. Given the budget just a few
:18:15. > :18:19.weeks ago said that the Chancellor would borrow billions more than he
:18:20. > :18:23.suggested back in 2010, there will not be any money in the pot to
:18:24. > :18:30.renationalise. We cannot commit to writing blank cheques for that. You
:18:31. > :18:39.could bring the railways back into public hands just by not selling the
:18:40. > :18:43.East Coast line. And ring the contract back into public hands as
:18:44. > :18:48.they lapse. You do not need extra money for that. In the case of the
:18:49. > :18:53.Royal mail it would be too costly. The share price is around ?6 per
:18:54. > :19:02.share. We do not know how much money we will have. And the Chancellor has
:19:03. > :19:06.borrowed nearly ?200 billion. It was thriving in the public sector and
:19:07. > :19:15.would have done a good job in the public sector. Thank you very much.
:19:16. > :19:18.Communities Secretary Eric Pickles says he may investigate the London
:19:19. > :19:20.borough of Tower Hamlets after allegations were made against the
:19:21. > :19:28.borough's mayor, Lutfur Rahman, in last night's Panorama programme on
:19:29. > :19:30.the BBC. The mayor, who is Bangladeshi, more than doubled
:19:31. > :19:33.funding recommended by officers for Bengali-run charities. Opposition
:19:34. > :19:36.councillors say they believe the grants were made in return for
:19:37. > :19:42.electoral support, but Mr Rahman strongly denies these accusations.
:19:43. > :19:49.Panorama's John Ware put the allegations to the mayor. You more
:19:50. > :19:54.than doubled the grand officers recommended to Bengali and Somali
:19:55. > :19:58.run organisations and you cut others to help pay for it. That is why the
:19:59. > :20:09.opposition say it is about electoral advantage. What do you say to that.
:20:10. > :20:13.It is untrue. Absolutely untrue. My principal has always been that we
:20:14. > :20:19.will distribute the money to as many organisations as possible as they
:20:20. > :20:23.benefit the community. We're joined now by the former Mayor
:20:24. > :20:25.of London, Ken Livingstone who's a supporter of Lutfur Rahman and the
:20:26. > :20:33.former Local Government minister, Bob Neill. Ken Livingstone, what did
:20:34. > :20:37.you make of those allegations. I think it was a game changing
:20:38. > :20:42.programme. I have watched the programme all my life and that was
:20:43. > :20:54.the first time I fell asleep. 30 minutes of them joining on saying it
:20:55. > :20:58.was a politician winning support. That is what you do as a politician.
:20:59. > :21:06.It was ever thus. That is what you do if your elect did. To dismiss it
:21:07. > :21:11.like that is wrong. This exposed one of the worst examples of malpractice
:21:12. > :21:15.I have seen in local government. And I have been around for 24 years.
:21:16. > :21:20.There is a difference between promoting policies and doing so in a
:21:21. > :21:24.system which does not observe due process. The detail of that
:21:25. > :21:28.programme showed that there are no proper systematic checks and
:21:29. > :21:34.balances. Which there are in other authorities. So there is a problem
:21:35. > :21:41.in Tower Hamlets. This is a guy who has never appeared before the
:21:42. > :21:49.scrutiny committee. What are the allegations of malpractice. There
:21:50. > :21:56.are three issues. The programme, and it is not somehow biased and races,
:21:57. > :22:05.that is absurd. There is a concern about the lack of any audit trail.
:22:06. > :22:08.No audit trail on the changes to the grants which favoured organisations
:22:09. > :22:16.linked to the mayor and his supporters. And also a problem with
:22:17. > :22:24.abuse of Eastlands -- East End life. And also a concern that has come to
:22:25. > :22:30.light with the mayor's officers threatening opposition councillors
:22:31. > :22:36.with standards and quarry. And there has been one case of that where an
:22:37. > :22:46.opposition councillor was wrongly taken to a standards board. Everyone
:22:47. > :22:54.is always referring people to the standards board now. It was done by
:22:55. > :23:00.Lib Dems and Tories against me. Lutfur Rahman has quite a successful
:23:01. > :23:04.record. He has built more social housing for rent than any other
:23:05. > :23:08.local authority. He was the first mayor to introduce the living wage
:23:09. > :23:14.following example I said. He has introduced free school meals for
:23:15. > :23:18.kids. This is one of the poorest boroughs in Britain. Of course he
:23:19. > :23:26.will find groups that support the Somali and Bangladeshi community. He
:23:27. > :23:31.will not fund the bankers down the road, they do not need it. You get a
:23:32. > :23:35.platform to those groups that you have sympathy for more than you
:23:36. > :23:40.think will give you electoral support. But there is an issue of
:23:41. > :23:43.transparency. If there is no audit trail and you cannot see where
:23:44. > :23:48.levels of funding were changed then it does look like malpractice.
:23:49. > :23:52.People can turn up and get access to anything. This is the weakness of
:23:53. > :23:58.the mayoral system. The same allegations were put to me. That is
:23:59. > :24:03.why I think that the mayoral system is flawed. When you have a normal
:24:04. > :24:06.council you have members of your group watching over your shoulder.
:24:07. > :24:13.If you do anything wrong they will remove you. You had your assembly
:24:14. > :24:19.scrutinising you. They can only ask questions. But Lutfur Rahman is
:24:20. > :24:26.standing up and not only refusing to appear -- in front of the scrutiny
:24:27. > :24:28.council but you also had him saying it is against his human rights for
:24:29. > :24:35.him to be obliged to answer questions. You cannot defend that. I
:24:36. > :24:42.did a weekly press conference and answered everything. Boris does one
:24:43. > :24:47.once per year. Is it not ridiculous that he is not prepared to be
:24:48. > :24:58.scrutinised. He is prepared to be scrutinised. Tower Hamlets is very
:24:59. > :25:02.political. The Labour Party was deeply divided. He was unfairly
:25:03. > :25:05.forced out of the Labour Party. I hope that things will come down and
:25:06. > :25:16.we will bring people back together again. You are very close to him, he
:25:17. > :25:22.supported you in election. Do not pretend you're an independent
:25:23. > :25:27.observer on this. He is going well beyond anything I have ever seen in
:25:28. > :25:33.local government. He is carrying out exactly the kind of policies I ran
:25:34. > :25:37.on in the last election. He has set up an energy body so people do not
:25:38. > :25:42.have to pay so much for their energy. He provided free school
:25:43. > :25:48.meals. The way they moved money around, they made major changes to
:25:49. > :25:57.grants. Tower Hamlets, let me make this point, we cannot afford in a
:25:58. > :25:59.diverse city like London to have any politician of any political party
:26:00. > :26:06.trying to play one community against another. Is that what was happening.
:26:07. > :26:15.The Merit's own legal officer said they were in breach of their
:26:16. > :26:20.position. Before Lutfur Rahman, that was the case. The Labour group used
:26:21. > :26:26.to play one section of the community against another. What about the
:26:27. > :26:33.model itself. Do you think that directly elected mayors have too
:26:34. > :26:41.much power. Yes. Ken says it after he has filled the post! The reason I
:26:42. > :26:47.stood is if you have to have one you want an honest person like me. It
:26:48. > :26:55.can work. It does require checks and balances. That requires a genuinely
:26:56. > :26:58.independent office. That is no longer the case said Tower Hamlets
:26:59. > :27:01.because many experienced people have been moved out. You have to have the
:27:02. > :27:07.chance for the other political parties generally to challenge and
:27:08. > :27:12.question you. You are saying that the model as it exists is not
:27:13. > :27:17.correct because there is not enough scrutiny. We need to put in more
:27:18. > :27:25.checks and balances. But it can be made to work. Is it a good idea?
:27:26. > :27:30.Absolutely not. It puts too much power in hands of person. Many
:27:31. > :27:34.councils have gone towards the Cabinet system which is taking power
:27:35. > :27:41.away from local councillors. And people have too lobby at council
:27:42. > :27:46.meetings. We need to go back to a model where you can go to your
:27:47. > :27:50.locally elected person who can really make a difference. The point
:27:51. > :27:55.about a directly elected mayor is engaging the public. If you have a
:27:56. > :28:01.charismatic person they will achieve far more. Ken Livingstone, he has
:28:02. > :28:05.achieved a certain amount when it came to housing. You could not do
:28:06. > :28:10.that in a cabinet system. What you also need is properly funded local
:28:11. > :28:15.government which we have not got. Where people can go to their local
:28:16. > :28:22.councillor and they can make a change. There are directly elect did
:28:23. > :28:28.mayors in this country who do a good job. And they run the system
:28:29. > :28:33.properly and within their council constitution. There are checks and
:28:34. > :28:38.balances which they adhere to. This is becoming a rogue authority. It
:28:39. > :28:44.all relies on one person and that is a bad idea. This is an American
:28:45. > :28:49.system dropped in contrary to all our normal traditions. We need to go
:28:50. > :28:55.back to proper councils were committees have real scrutiny and
:28:56. > :29:03.willpower. There is a bit of the leopard changing his spots there.
:29:04. > :29:07.You were quite keen on that system. And quite frequently argued to
:29:08. > :29:17.reduce the powers of the Assembly as I remember. You rode roughshod over
:29:18. > :29:27.the Assembly. They could not do anything about it! Bob Neill, did
:29:28. > :29:34.you ever think Ken Livingstone made funding decisions according to the
:29:35. > :29:38.voter base. I think he made some daft decisions but I did not put his
:29:39. > :29:41.behaviour anywhere in the league that we see in Tower Hamlets. There
:29:42. > :29:48.were difficulties but there was an older trail. That threw up the
:29:49. > :29:54.things that went seriously wrong with funding decisions in the London
:29:55. > :29:57.Development Agency 's. But there was an audit trail for it to be
:29:58. > :30:04.discovered. And what about Boris Johnson. He is exactly the same with
:30:05. > :30:09.proper audit trail. In Tower Hamlets the audit trails are not there and
:30:10. > :30:15.the system is being abused. I think it is as bad as any case I have seen
:30:16. > :30:19.in my career. Now, the MP Nigel Evans and former Deputy Speaker took
:30:20. > :30:22.to the the witness box yesterday in his trial where he stands accused of
:30:23. > :30:25.one rape, two indecent assaults, five sexual assaults and one
:30:26. > :30:29.attempted sexual assault. He denies all the charges. Nigel Evans told
:30:30. > :30:32.the jury of his absolute hell and said he felt embarrassed about
:30:33. > :30:39.having to discuss the allegations with the police. Ed Thomas is at
:30:40. > :30:45.Preston Crown Court for us. Ed, tell us what's been happening in court.
:30:46. > :30:51.Nigel Evans has left the dock for a third day to take the stand to
:30:52. > :30:55.defend himself. He has described his life has held since the allegations
:30:56. > :30:58.were made. He said that to have yourselves sullied in this way is
:30:59. > :31:04.awful. He said he was embarrassed after his arrest and in a deep sense
:31:05. > :31:09.of shock. He could not believe it was happening. With his voice
:31:10. > :31:12.breaking, he looked directly at the juror 's and said, nobody wants
:31:13. > :31:17.their private life to be brought up in this way. It is incredibly
:31:18. > :31:21.difficult. He talked about what he thought was an attraction between
:31:22. > :31:26.himself and one of these alleged victims. He said this man was
:31:27. > :31:29.incredibly flirtatious. They would hold hands. He said there was a
:31:30. > :31:35.connection between them. He added that there is no fool like an old
:31:36. > :31:40.fool. He is now being cross-examined in court. He is being asked about to
:31:41. > :31:46.alleged incidents where the MP tried to put his hand down two young
:31:47. > :31:48.Westminster workers trousers. He told the court, I have no
:31:49. > :31:54.recollection of this happening. Asked if he was a lecherous man, you
:31:55. > :32:01.said, you are trying to make me out to be a cross between Alan Clark,
:32:02. > :32:06.Oscar Wilde and Benny Hill. What is expected to happen over the next few
:32:07. > :32:10.days? Nigel Evans is still giving evidence now. We expect him to be
:32:11. > :32:16.cross-examined for the rest of the day. The case has another week or so
:32:17. > :32:20.to go. More witnesses will be called in defence for Nigel Evans. Then the
:32:21. > :32:26.summing up from the prosecution defence and the judge. Then the jury
:32:27. > :32:30.will be sent out to consider its verdict. Nigel Evans is accused of
:32:31. > :32:35.using his political influence to take sexual advantage of seven young
:32:36. > :32:44.men. The MP denies all of the allegations against him.
:32:45. > :32:46.So, the latest major assessment of climate change published by UN
:32:47. > :32:50.experts says there's overwhelming evidence that its impact is already
:32:51. > :32:53.being felt across the world and it's likely to get worse. And that's
:32:54. > :32:55.consistent with other recent studies from leading scientists. So, what
:32:56. > :32:59.are politicians doing about it? Well, it wasn't so long ago that it
:33:00. > :33:02.seemed the entire political class had turned a shade of green. David
:33:03. > :33:05.Cameron was pictured being pulled by huskies across the Arctic. Once
:33:06. > :33:10.Prime Minister, he promised this would be the greenest government
:33:11. > :33:14.ever. But by the autumn of last year, he was reported to have
:33:15. > :33:17.ordered aides to get rid of the "green clap" which critics said were
:33:18. > :33:25.increasing the cost of living and hurting British business. -- green
:33:26. > :33:29.crap. The ECO or Energy Company Obligation scheme has been scaled
:33:30. > :33:32.back. The strike price promised to generators of electricity produced
:33:33. > :33:36.from wind or solar energy has been reduced. And the fuel duty escalator
:33:37. > :33:40.that would have added 2p to a litre of petrol this year has been
:33:41. > :33:42.cancelled. We're joined now by Tim Yeo the Conservative Chair of the
:33:43. > :33:47.Energy and Climate Change Select Committee and the Sun columnist
:33:48. > :33:55.Trevor Kavanagh. Welcome to both of you. Natalie Bennett, we heard the
:33:56. > :34:02.IPCC report and it was apocalyptic and some people's eyes and alarmist.
:34:03. > :34:06.Despite that David Cameron is scrapping green levies and scrapping
:34:07. > :34:12.the fuel duty escalator. People are not into green policies. I do not
:34:13. > :34:18.think it is true. I am not sure the green issues are responsible for
:34:19. > :34:21.polls. We have had two reports saying the debate over climate
:34:22. > :34:27.change is over, the reality is here and we need to take action. It is a
:34:28. > :34:32.tragedy since the 2008 climate change act when we had cross-party
:34:33. > :34:37.agreement on action, we have slipped backwards. It is an indictment of
:34:38. > :34:42.this government. What do you say to that? This government has set the
:34:43. > :34:47.toughest budget for carbon emissions of any country in the world. It was
:34:48. > :34:51.made three years ago, the decision. That was a very challenging decision
:34:52. > :34:55.taken with some courage by David Cameron with the support of the
:34:56. > :34:59.whole coalition. If you look specifically at the renewable
:35:00. > :35:06.technology referred to in the introduction, solar, wind, this
:35:07. > :35:08.government has set aside ?7 billion by 2020 to support those
:35:09. > :35:13.technologies through subsidies. Everyone understands it is right the
:35:14. > :35:16.strike price, the price guaranteed to the suppliers of renewable
:35:17. > :35:22.energy, it should come down as the technologies get more advanced. I am
:35:23. > :35:27.hopeful that by 2020, we may find that things like solar do not need a
:35:28. > :35:32.subsidy at all. Can David Cameron claimant is the greenest government
:35:33. > :35:36.ever? Judged by the criteria of previous governments, he can. Now we
:35:37. > :35:41.have this information about how bad it could be unless the effects of
:35:42. > :35:46.emissions are mitigated, is this the green escarpment ever and could it
:35:47. > :35:51.be better? It is greener than all of those that went before. If you take
:35:52. > :35:54.EU discussions about what the targets for 2030 should be, the
:35:55. > :35:59.British Government is one of those in the lead pressing for challenging
:36:00. > :36:03.targets. That is Britain using its influence to try and get Europe to
:36:04. > :36:08.move in a greener direction. That is simply not true. The British garment
:36:09. > :36:13.is a drag on those negotiations. Let us look at what is happening on the
:36:14. > :36:16.ground. Figures recently, the contribution from renewables to
:36:17. > :36:20.British energy compared to 28 countries, we can proudly claim we
:36:21. > :36:25.are ahead of Luxembourg and Malta. We are behind everybody else.
:36:26. > :36:32.Looking at the report of the echo, we have cut back a programme
:36:33. > :36:35.insulating people's homes. This government has failed on every
:36:36. > :36:42.policy measure and not delivered and it is promoting shale gas.
:36:43. > :36:46.Last November, your paper, the Sun, it ran the headline, Cameron
:36:47. > :36:53.switches from concerned green to trueblue Tory. Why isn't your paper
:36:54. > :37:00.taking the threat of climate change seriously I think we are taking it
:37:01. > :37:03.seriously. It is unfortunately for the green movement and the
:37:04. > :37:08.Armageddon scenario, they have had a problem of bad timing and poor
:37:09. > :37:14.timing. It happened during a period when there had been no global
:37:15. > :37:18.warming for 16 years also. Also, the world is going through the worst
:37:19. > :37:22.recession and the last thing people want is the cost of imposing the
:37:23. > :37:30.measures everybody is demanding. As for tactics, I think the profit
:37:31. > :37:32.looked at -- the apocalyptic nature coupled with rather dodgy
:37:33. > :37:42.statistics, if not fiddled statistics, I think that gave the
:37:43. > :37:46.green movement a very bad start. The idea of the seas rising by several
:37:47. > :37:51.feet or metres, this is not happening. It may be happening by
:37:52. > :37:55.inches but not metres. Do you accept credible to was lost because of
:37:56. > :38:04.inaccurate statistics? -- credibility was lost. The levels are
:38:05. > :38:08.rising and the earth is warming. We have the facts now and the
:38:09. > :38:14.factors... They were wrong before? Will a macro there were minor
:38:15. > :38:25.errors. -- there were minor errors. The fact is, what we actually need
:38:26. > :38:30.to do we are losing thousands of potential jobs. The potential of
:38:31. > :38:33.things like the energy bill revolution which could take the
:38:34. > :38:39.money from carbon taxes and insulated every home in Britain
:38:40. > :38:42.which are needed, create 200,000 jobs and cut carbon emissions.
:38:43. > :38:47.Things like tidal energy. We have the potential to develop a British
:38:48. > :38:51.industry and the government is not creating the policy environment to
:38:52. > :38:57.do that. They have not got the message about how it could save
:38:58. > :39:02.money later on. Indeed. In the very short-term, dependence on fossil
:39:03. > :39:08.fuels is slightly cheaper. Looking ahead ten, 15 years, the probability
:39:09. > :39:12.is carbon tax, through taxes or emissions trading, will be much
:39:13. > :39:15.higher. Those countries which invest in low carbon technology will do the
:39:16. > :39:21.right thing environmentally but benefit economically because their
:39:22. > :39:26.costs will come down. Why has David Cameron scrap the green levies?
:39:27. > :39:31.There has been some adjustment to fairly detailed policies. Britain
:39:32. > :39:35.remains committed to the same level of carbon emission reductions as it
:39:36. > :39:42.was two years ago. The use of the phrase green crap is not one that is
:39:43. > :39:50.proven to be the Prime Minister. It is popular! It was leaked by a Tory
:39:51. > :39:54.aide. People are quite rightly worried about energy bills. They
:39:55. > :39:59.can't afford it. Anything that will bring them down will be welcome. If
:40:00. > :40:04.we want Britain to have secure affordable energy, the right ways to
:40:05. > :40:08.broaden our energy mix so it includes nuclear and shale gas and
:40:09. > :40:17.also a big element of renewables. Your view is short-term. No, not at
:40:18. > :40:22.all. The crying wolf, the Armageddon apocalyptic society betrayed by the
:40:23. > :40:27.green movement may or may not happen. The overwhelming evidence is
:40:28. > :40:30.it will happen unless the effects are mitigated. It is computer model
:40:31. > :40:35.generated. We know there are some signs of global warming. However,
:40:36. > :40:41.the human race is infinitely adaptable. Also so things could be
:40:42. > :40:45.considered. The costs involved in the measures required to deal with
:40:46. > :40:51.the flooding that is being forecast, the heatwaves, they are effectively
:40:52. > :40:56.beyond the resources of the world to deal with, especially when half of
:40:57. > :41:02.the world are totally ignoring these apparent signs of warming. The
:41:03. > :41:05.Chinese are in the lead in recognising the lead for low carbon
:41:06. > :41:11.technology. In America, California has introduced its own emissions
:41:12. > :41:15.trading systems. This is a myth. There was a time when you could
:41:16. > :41:20.argue certain parts of Asia were in denial. It is no longer the case.
:41:21. > :41:24.Quite soon we will find more modern technology giving people a
:41:25. > :41:28.competitive advantage economically is being adopted in China, South
:41:29. > :41:33.Korea, the US. Britain may be left behind. Written may be left --
:41:34. > :41:39.Britain is being left behind and that is an indictment of the current
:41:40. > :41:42.government. Christine Lagarde, she was asked what kept her awake at
:41:43. > :41:47.night and she said, we are not doing enough about climate change. Ban
:41:48. > :41:53.Ki-moon, the UN Secretary General, he said, the heat is on, we must
:41:54. > :41:59.act. They are taking strategic long view of the world's future and
:42:00. > :42:02.saying, we are not doing enough. Do you claim people are not listening
:42:03. > :42:06.because the government has not been as committed as it says and there
:42:07. > :42:10.have been mixed messages? Is that why many people will agree with
:42:11. > :42:15.Trevor? The government is sending out messages it is no big deal.
:42:16. > :42:18.There is also the other factor that we have a media dominated by a few
:42:19. > :42:28.extremely rich right-wing tycoons who have a huge interest. In the
:42:29. > :42:34.non-Anglo parts of the world where you do not have them, we would not
:42:35. > :42:40.be having this debate. Let Trevor answer that. I think the green lobby
:42:41. > :42:45.has had the lion's share of the debate. To the point where it has
:42:46. > :42:48.tried to terrify people into submission on things like windmills
:42:49. > :42:52.which are complete waste of money. Solar energy I agree could become
:42:53. > :42:56.the answer to our problems. There is nothing wrong with fracking. Low
:42:57. > :43:03.carbon emission gas is much better than oil and coal. In the last
:43:04. > :43:07.month, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, Michael Gove, they have
:43:08. > :43:10.all confirmed their acceptance of the science of climate change. They
:43:11. > :43:18.just don't want to pay to do anything about it. David Cameron has
:43:19. > :43:26.been pressing hard in the EU for 40% of carbon cuts. The reason why they
:43:27. > :43:30.had to come out and explicitly state they believed in climate change was
:43:31. > :43:35.because there actions seem to demonstrate they did not. Even in
:43:36. > :43:41.your case, you said you were deselected because of disagreements
:43:42. > :43:46.over York constituency, gay marriage and climate change. -- your
:43:47. > :43:55.constituency. If you had your time again, would you be as stridently
:43:56. > :43:58.pro-green? I would be more so. The fact is, of course there are people
:43:59. > :44:01.in Britain not yet persuaded by these arguments. That is why it is
:44:02. > :44:09.incumbent on people who understand to get out there and make the
:44:10. > :44:14.persuasive argument. The polls reinforce Trevor's view. Three
:44:15. > :44:17.points behind where you were in 2009 in the European elections. You are
:44:18. > :44:25.failing more to get your message across. What we are seeing with the
:44:26. > :44:37.polls is and prompted result. The Lib Dem result prompted. Quite a lot
:44:38. > :44:43.of... You are unprompted in 2009. We're working hard in our target
:44:44. > :44:50.regions. That is what we are aiming to do, let more MEPs, send greens to
:44:51. > :44:54.Europe. It is never persuasive to say the media are the people at
:44:55. > :44:57.fault. We have to be more persuasive and determined. That is why I am
:44:58. > :45:00.pleased we have a Prime Minister, Chancellor who are out there
:45:01. > :45:09.determined to see Britain decarbonise its economy. David
:45:10. > :45:16.Cameron is going to have a husky customer probably not any time soon.
:45:17. > :45:20.You might have noticed by her accent when she talks, Natalie was born and
:45:21. > :45:25.brought up in Australia. But can foreign-born politicians make it in
:45:26. > :45:32.British politics? Here's Adam. The socialite Nancy Astor was the
:45:33. > :45:35.first woman to take up her seat in Parliament and she was also an
:45:36. > :45:40.American. Here is another one. Connecticut born Brooks Newmark has
:45:41. > :45:46.since dropped his US citizenship. When I first stood here and not of
:45:47. > :45:54.the Labour candidates were saying do you want an American representatives
:45:55. > :45:58.in Parliament. Someone said I thought there was an American
:45:59. > :46:04.standing there. I said yes but I moved here when I was nine. A lot of
:46:05. > :46:08.people make their lives here and I am no different. That person was
:46:09. > :46:15.expecting some Texan in a hat. It was the year of George bush and that
:46:16. > :46:22.is what they expected. And we once had a Canadian prime minister.
:46:23. > :46:28.Andrew Bonar Law, one of the least famous residence ever of ten Downing
:46:29. > :46:37.St. He entered the Coalition with the Liberals. Nowadays it turns out
:46:38. > :46:43.we have loads of foreign-born MPs. Their heritage rarely comes up as an
:46:44. > :46:47.issue. But for once it has defined his political career. My parents
:46:48. > :46:52.were anti-apartheid activists in Pretoria and my whole background
:46:53. > :46:56.with them being jailed and fined and police raiding our house and then
:46:57. > :47:03.forced into exile is very much rooted in that. Look closely and you
:47:04. > :47:10.will see a young Peter Hain at this anti-apartheid protest in the 1970s.
:47:11. > :47:13.Coming from outside British society, you're not trapped by the class
:47:14. > :47:21.system. I was able to mix with Prince Charles and equally go home
:47:22. > :47:25.to my local rugby club. There have been so many migrant MPs that we
:47:26. > :47:28.hardly have time to discuss the New Zealander Bryan Gould who challenged
:47:29. > :47:35.John Smith to the Labour leadership in 1992. Then Boris Johnson, born in
:47:36. > :47:43.New York. He occasionally takes out his American passport. Even though
:47:44. > :47:46.he threatened to throw it away. And I'm joined by MPs Gisela Stuart
:47:47. > :47:50.and Nadhim Zahawi. Welcome. And Natalie Bennett is still with us.
:47:51. > :47:58.And, guess what? They were all born abroad! Tell us how you came to live
:47:59. > :48:02.here. I arrived 40 years ago unable to speak English. I served the
:48:03. > :48:07.German apprenticeship and someone offered me a job even though I did
:48:08. > :48:13.not speak the language. I did a three-day week. My parents thought I
:48:14. > :48:20.would not last. Were you surprised you lasted so long. I lasted, then I
:48:21. > :48:24.went to Holland and came back here. So yes I am utterly surprised. But
:48:25. > :48:30.what I find extraordinary, I would never say I'm English but I am a
:48:31. > :48:36.dish. That is a wonderful unifying thing. What about your experience?
:48:37. > :48:42.We came here in the late 1970s. My father was Kurdish. Born in
:48:43. > :48:51.Baghdad, pretty hard to live there for a Kurdish family. We came here,
:48:52. > :48:57.at school I had to try to construct sentences in my head and then let
:48:58. > :49:03.them out. It was so hard to learn the language. I have had the most
:49:04. > :49:07.extraordinary life here. The gift I have had here is freedom and
:49:08. > :49:14.opportunity. I made the best of both, founding a business and taking
:49:15. > :49:23.it public. I became a member of Parliament in a very middle-class
:49:24. > :49:28.white area. It has not been an obstacle for either of you. I have
:49:29. > :49:33.the old constituency of Neville 's Chamberlain and I occasionally have
:49:34. > :49:41.imagined conversations with him. Saying it is all right, democratic.
:49:42. > :49:48.I came in 1999 and did not have many language issues! I speak fluent
:49:49. > :49:55.Australian! I had to be careful about the use of the word long. But
:49:56. > :50:00.I came as a professional journalist. I had been to Britain before and
:50:01. > :50:04.loved the place. And back and settled and cannot imagine wanting
:50:05. > :50:10.to leave. And how did you make the leap to politician. In 2006 it was
:50:11. > :50:15.the New Year resolution. I looked at the state of the world and wanted to
:50:16. > :50:19.do something. I never read it did it would lead me to this spot. It just
:50:20. > :50:25.happened. We always talking about the lack of women in politics. Do
:50:26. > :50:29.you think that is more of a barrier than your background in that sense.
:50:30. > :50:34.When I was selected by the Labour Party they said it is the fact that
:50:35. > :50:41.you spent ten years in Manchester that you have to keep quiet about!
:50:42. > :50:46.But to this day I do feel slightly foreign. When we talk about
:50:47. > :50:54.education, I do not have those class hang-ups. I cannot get worked up
:50:55. > :50:59.about a select system. And I know there is an element that I do not
:51:00. > :51:04.understand. Peter Hain made the same point. You're not born into the same
:51:05. > :51:11.class system and do not have the history of it. That is probably
:51:12. > :51:18.true. For me we fell on hard times, we came here, the bank took at home
:51:19. > :51:24.and a lot of bad things happen. But what allowed me to get up and try
:51:25. > :51:32.again is that we had a pretty decent education. That was partly back in
:51:33. > :51:38.Iraq and then in the UK I was lucky because my father had been in the UK
:51:39. > :51:46.before and was educated so there was already that link to the UK. But the
:51:47. > :51:49.rail differentiate is education. We do not have the baggage of the class
:51:50. > :51:54.system. There is not that last ceiling in many ways. You can just
:51:55. > :52:00.walk into a room and talk to everyone equally. I think that is
:52:01. > :52:04.one of the uses of an Australian accent, that it is entirely
:52:05. > :52:12.classless. But the gender thing is something I do think about, of
:52:13. > :52:16.myself as a female politician not as an Australian politician. I'm the
:52:17. > :52:23.first woman party leader to take over from another woman arty leader.
:52:24. > :52:29.When I walk around Westminster it is horrifying how male dominated it is.
:52:30. > :52:33.Not just members of Parliament but it still feels like a male dominated
:52:34. > :52:42.place. In terms of any prejudice, did you come across any in terms of
:52:43. > :52:48.your background. In 1997 I had a conversation with a Tory voter who
:52:49. > :52:56.said that she would vote for me Cosmo German would put up with
:52:57. > :52:59.nonsense regarding law and order! Now how important is image to the
:53:00. > :53:03.success of a political leader? That's one of the themes of the
:53:04. > :53:06.satirical play, The Confessions of Gordon Brown. After its success at
:53:07. > :53:11.the Labour Party conference last year, it's about to start a run in
:53:12. > :53:18.London's West End. In a moment we'll be joined by the play's creator,
:53:19. > :53:21.Kevin Toolis. First here's a clip of Gordon Brown, played by Ian Grieve,
:53:22. > :53:38.pondering on the importance of image.
:53:39. > :53:51.You are on. I always knew him and that other all
:53:52. > :53:58.the, in Duncan Smith, what is he up to now. Nothing much. You never read
:53:59. > :54:03.about them in the papers. Who wants to see a baldly on the front page.
:54:04. > :54:08.The people will not vote for oldies. Instead of the old Tories it was the
:54:09. > :54:16.Conservative and baldly political suicide party. Broken to pieces. The
:54:17. > :54:27.Tories had no leader and the people knew it. The world was a poster. --
:54:28. > :54:30.but are oyster. And I'm joined by Kevin Toolis, the
:54:31. > :54:33.writer of The Confessions of Gordon Brown and John McTernan who used to
:54:34. > :54:41.advise Tony Blair on political strategy. What about Ed Miliband. I
:54:42. > :54:47.think he is not a viable prime Minster. Politics is a cruel sport.
:54:48. > :54:55.It is a narrow trench where good men die every day. And then shameless
:54:56. > :55:00.charlatans steal all the prizes. And then there is a negative prize! But
:55:01. > :55:05.he is not bald! He is tall which is a requirement. But his image after
:55:06. > :55:11.four years, he has not been able to change that kind of geeky image that
:55:12. > :55:15.people have of him and I think that is a fatal flaw and he will not
:55:16. > :55:21.succeed. Do you agree. I think that is a ridiculous invented test, that
:55:22. > :55:26.you're mad to look like a prime minister before you become one. Tony
:55:27. > :55:32.Blair and David Cameron are really the only ones who actually did that.
:55:33. > :55:47.Margaret Thatcher, Robert be the most influential. The Tories lead
:55:48. > :55:51.Margaret Thatcher in popularity. How'd you explain people like Hague
:55:52. > :55:59.and Michael foot. Why did they not become prime minister. Because their
:56:00. > :56:06.politics were crazy. The quality of your enemies is also essential to
:56:07. > :56:11.your success. William Hague always looked strange, he was never able to
:56:12. > :56:16.escape that image of him as a 16-year-old. He and Ian Duncan
:56:17. > :56:24.Smith, those were fatal choices. Political parties have lost some
:56:25. > :56:27.plans for political suicide. And that applies to the Labour Party and
:56:28. > :56:34.Labour Party in Scotland as well. It does weaken the potential victory of
:56:35. > :56:39.that party. In a televisual age there has to be something of an
:56:40. > :56:44.aura, a style over substance because that makes it easier to get the
:56:45. > :56:49.message across. Ian Duncan Smith and William Hague Michael Howard, they
:56:50. > :56:59.all lost elections because they had wrong policies. Ed Miliband has been
:57:00. > :57:04.down in the polls. But David Cameron is no more popular than when he was
:57:05. > :57:09.elected. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. Ed Miliband has
:57:10. > :57:16.policies that connect with real people. When he is out there
:57:17. > :57:21.speaking, he is like John Major. 41% of people think Ed Miliband is
:57:22. > :57:27.strange. You get stupid answers to stupid question. 38% of the
:57:28. > :57:33.population are going to vote Labour. Is it not about the potential prime
:57:34. > :57:38.minister. They have got to be able to see the leader of the party of
:57:39. > :57:43.the future prime minister. They see the party of the future government.
:57:44. > :57:50.As an instrument to oust an unpopular government. In the end it
:57:51. > :57:57.is policies and not personalities. The stature of the leader is a
:57:58. > :58:01.hugely decisive factor. The coming election is hard to call. But the
:58:02. > :58:06.notion that you could just be a nobody. And have negative ratings
:58:07. > :58:14.and would somehow not matter, of course it matters. I think with Ed
:58:15. > :58:22.Miliband his problem is he is not having any strong policies, he's not
:58:23. > :58:27.trying to offend anyone. He's just staying quite and not say anything
:58:28. > :58:34.radical and hope to fall back into office. That is the problem for
:58:35. > :58:41.Labour. Well the opinion polls are closing. This latest poll, just 9%
:58:42. > :58:46.of the population think Ed Miliband is a strong leader. You cannot just
:58:47. > :58:51.ignore all that content in the opinion polls. That's all for today.
:58:52. > :58:57.Thanks to our guests. Goodbye.