02/04/2014

:00:41. > :00:49.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Westminster's all of a

:00:50. > :00:54.quiver at the prospect of Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage going head-to-head.

:00:55. > :00:57.Apparently Mr Clegg will become over all - motional on the debate about

:00:58. > :01:05.whether Britain should be in or out of the EU. We'll bring you live

:01:06. > :01:09.coverage of PMQs. David Cameron and Ed Miliband square up at noon. We've

:01:10. > :01:13.asked a famous BBC face to get on his bike and tell us why it's time

:01:14. > :01:17.to end the licence fee. The licence fee when it comes up for

:01:18. > :01:22.renewal in two years' time will be 90 years old and, as every year goes

:01:23. > :01:27.by, it becomes more and more an Akronistic.

:01:28. > :01:29.What can possibly go wrong when politicians brief journalists

:01:30. > :01:39.off-the-record? We'll look at some that have gone spectacularly wrong.

:01:40. > :01:44.We are joined by two MPs who've never ever briefed a journalist over

:01:45. > :01:48.lunch or anywhere else. At least that's what they tell the whips when

:01:49. > :01:58.they come knocking late at night! It's the Universities and Science

:01:59. > :02:02.Minister David Willets and Shadow minister Emily Thornberry. First,

:02:03. > :02:09.the sand is being blown in from the sort what radio heading to smog

:02:10. > :02:15.forming over parts of the country -- The Sahara. People are told to avoid

:02:16. > :02:21.strenuous exercise outside. I intend to follow that. We won't be jogging

:02:22. > :02:24.home after the show! What a relief. The dust that's been blowing over

:02:25. > :02:29.Britain for the past few days has been leaving a distinctive red mark

:02:30. > :02:31.on cars. Even mine and sky lights. Even David Cameron, the Prime

:02:32. > :02:38.Minister's car's been affected. Here is a picture of his car in Downing

:02:39. > :02:42.Street yesterday. That is going to need a good wash. He'll probably be

:02:43. > :02:45.out there with a bucket and sponge after PMQs giving it a clean

:02:46. > :02:49.himself. Maybe not. To tell us more, we are joined by BBC Weather

:02:50. > :02:54.presenter, Jay Wynne. Welcome to the programme. How can all that fine

:02:55. > :02:57.dust make it all the way from The Sahara to here?

:02:58. > :03:01.Well, you have to look at the big picture. This satellite sequence

:03:02. > :03:05.telles a good story. You can see the curl of cloud to the west of the UK,

:03:06. > :03:10.it's the low pressure. To the east, we have an area of high pressure.

:03:11. > :03:13.The two have combined to produce southerly breezes coming from a long

:03:14. > :03:18.way south. You can see how far this cloud extends. Southerly winds ahead

:03:19. > :03:23.of that coming out of central Africa bringing Saharan dust with it. As

:03:24. > :03:25.that dust drifts over the north, it interacts with the pollution

:03:26. > :03:29.floating around the mainland of Europe, then it makes its way

:03:30. > :03:33.towards our shores and interacts with the home-grown pollution so

:03:34. > :03:38.it's a triple whammy, our pollution, European pollution then you had on

:03:39. > :03:42.The Sahara dust. It's the Saharan dust that's tipped the balance to

:03:43. > :03:46.the high levels of pollution really. How unlikely is this triple whammy,

:03:47. > :03:50.will we see more of this or is this once, a couple of times every few

:03:51. > :03:59.years? This sort of thing does happen and it's not overly unusual

:04:00. > :04:04.but I suspect it's early on in the season to see it. This is forecast

:04:05. > :04:07.map for pollution levels. The worst is likely to be in East Anglia and

:04:08. > :04:10.the East Midlands. Also it's generally that south-eastern

:04:11. > :04:15.quadrant which is expecting poor levels of air quality. But the good

:04:16. > :04:18.news is that by tomorrow, we are not going to be seeing high levels of

:04:19. > :04:23.air pollution, but we are going to tone it down a notch to high levels.

:04:24. > :04:28.The area is that little bit smaller. By Friday, as the rain pushes

:04:29. > :04:33.through, we are going to clear the air completely and swap the wind and

:04:34. > :04:36.we'll see much clearer air pollution.

:04:37. > :04:40.Thank you very much. David Willets, people might say, although this is a

:04:41. > :04:45.temporary increase in levels of pollution, it's on top of already

:04:46. > :04:49.high levels of pollution that exist and that's what we need tackle isn't

:04:50. > :04:52.it? We do need to tackle pollution but there is a limit to what any

:04:53. > :04:58.Government can do about Saharan sand. I grant you that! The main

:04:59. > :05:01.thing we can do in the short run is provide accurate forecasts and what

:05:02. > :05:06.you saw from the Met Office was very impressive. Even a few years ago,

:05:07. > :05:09.they wouldn't have had the power to give us that kind of accuracy

:05:10. > :05:12.forecast. That means they can provide us with information on air

:05:13. > :05:16.quality that we, as a Government, will be putting out regularly so

:05:17. > :05:23.people can know how the air around them is being affected. How is your

:05:24. > :05:29.car, Emily? I cycled in this morning! I cycled in! I felt OK. You

:05:30. > :05:34.were told to avoid strength yous exercise. I wondered about driving

:05:35. > :05:37.in instead, but I thought, the whole point is that it's about pollution

:05:38. > :05:41.and it's not right to respond to it by adding to it in the car. What

:05:42. > :05:45.David said was interesting though. What can the Government do, all they

:05:46. > :05:48.can do is measure it. I'm not one of those who believe that. I believe

:05:49. > :05:53.Government can do things, I believe in Government and I think that, you

:05:54. > :06:03.know, I've been passed in Islington we have the A1 and question of law

:06:04. > :06:09.some of the worst air pollution -- A1 and we have some of the worst air

:06:10. > :06:16.pollution. The pollution's not so bad around the corner yourself know

:06:17. > :06:19.in another street where Boris Johnson's measured it. If Government

:06:20. > :06:24.doesn't do something about it, nobody is going to. For a Government

:06:25. > :06:29.minister to come in and go, we can only measure it, it's disappointing.

:06:30. > :06:34.You can't do much about Saharan sand. If you look at what we can do

:06:35. > :06:39.about our own home-grown pollution, yes, you can do everything from

:06:40. > :06:43.having high quality public transport which we are investing in, and also

:06:44. > :06:46.from my responsibilities on science and technology, investing in the

:06:47. > :06:50.motor vehicles of the future which are going to have different types of

:06:51. > :06:54.engines and be far less polluting an what we've got now. What we've got

:06:55. > :07:00.now is far better than what we had 20 years ago. Thank you. Otherwise

:07:01. > :07:03.get on your bike, Andrew! The number of foreign students in England has

:07:04. > :07:08.fallen for the first time in three decades according to figures out

:07:09. > :07:12.today. More stringent visa regulations are being blamed. The

:07:13. > :07:16.Government's been under pressure over the student loan book which

:07:17. > :07:21.estimates that nearly half of loans will never be repaid. It's

:07:22. > :07:24.complicated but Joco is here to explain.

:07:25. > :07:28.For the first time in 29 years, last year saw a 1% decline in the total

:07:29. > :07:34.number of international students coming to England to study. The fall

:07:35. > :07:40.was caused in part by a 50% drop in the number of post-graduates

:07:41. > :07:44.students coming from India and Pakistan following tougher

:07:45. > :07:48.restrictions of applicants and the restrictions of working after

:07:49. > :07:52.graduation. The number of EU students is also down by a quarter,

:07:53. > :07:58.that is being blamed on the rise in tuition fees from ?3,400 to ?9,000

:07:59. > :08:03.that came into effect in 2012. Last month, the higher tuition fees

:08:04. > :08:07.cap came under the spotlight after the Public Accounts Committee said

:08:08. > :08:12.that as much as 48% of student loan debts might never be repaid.

:08:13. > :08:17.Over the weekend, Labour hinted again that they might cut tuition

:08:18. > :08:21.fees to ?6,000 a year and Liam Byrne, their Shadow Universities

:08:22. > :08:25.Minister, warns the party or wants the party I should say, to

:08:26. > :08:30.eventually to move to a graduates tax.

:08:31. > :08:34.Thank you. David willets, the original estimate from the

:08:35. > :08:39.Government was that 28 wouldn't repay their loans, is that right? We

:08:40. > :08:46.said about 30% in 2010. The latest estimates are now at 45%. Yes. First

:08:47. > :08:50.of all, why did you get it wrong? We were operating on the earnings

:08:51. > :08:55.forecast provided to us by the office of budget responsibility and

:08:56. > :08:58.what we are doing here, is every six months, we are essentially

:08:59. > :09:01.forecasting income tax receipts for the next 30 years and the forecasts

:09:02. > :09:06.are very sensitive to the assumptions that are fed in about

:09:07. > :09:10.earnings retive the ?21,000 repayment threshold. Other countries

:09:11. > :09:15.don't engage in this exercise but it will mean... Because they always get

:09:16. > :09:18.it wrong? ! No, what you can only do is act on the latest forecasts you

:09:19. > :09:23.have about earnings, they'll keep on changing. There'll be times in the

:09:24. > :09:26.future when, because of some increases in wages, this figure will

:09:27. > :09:31.go down again. I doubt we'll have the same level of attention to it,

:09:32. > :09:35.but every six months we'll have a new forecast. I've said clearly to

:09:36. > :09:37.sl the Select Committee, they'll continue to change because we are

:09:38. > :09:42.forecasting what will happen to receipts in 30 years' time. But at

:09:43. > :09:47.45% now, that's the current forecast. Is it true that when you

:09:48. > :09:51.reach just over 48% of repayment, you actually get no benefit from the

:09:52. > :09:55.increase in tuition fees that you will be repaid less than the money

:09:56. > :10:02.you will be getting from the extra tuition fees? If you are giving that

:10:03. > :10:05.money to universities in grant, you wouldn't have got anything back, it

:10:06. > :10:09.would have been handed over as a cheque. Anything which means you get

:10:10. > :10:13.some of the payments - from the graduates, not students - when they

:10:14. > :10:17.are earning ?21,000, and some of the estimates ignore the fact that we

:10:18. > :10:21.have better funded universities as a result of this. Students gain from

:10:22. > :10:26.wiz a better quality education as a result. But no Government would

:10:27. > :10:31.consciously set out in a scheme in which you could end up - and you are

:10:32. > :10:36.very close to it now - to a 50% default rate. It's ?100 billion?

:10:37. > :10:41.Well, it's not quite a default. We have said all along that one of the

:10:42. > :10:47.virtues of our scheme is if at any point your earnings are low, ever

:10:48. > :10:50.below ?21,000, you don't pay back. That is a deliberate progressive

:10:51. > :10:54.foeture so young people don't worry that if they are on low earnings

:10:55. > :10:59.they are still hit with the bet, they are not, they don't pay back.

:11:00. > :11:04.The dream is progressive beyond Francois Hollande isn't it? ! All

:11:05. > :11:07.you have to do is earn ?21,000 now, well below the national average and

:11:08. > :11:13.the London and the South East average too. And you face an

:11:14. > :11:21.effective marginal rate of tax of 41%. Now, how can a young person on

:11:22. > :11:32.a 41% marginal rate of tax on a low Sal ray ever hope to get a mortgage

:11:33. > :11:43.as well? Well, it's a, if you are only on ?21,000, you pay it back

:11:44. > :11:47.then. Be basic tax rate was 35%. Under Labour's scheme, the repayment

:11:48. > :11:53.thresh holds was far lore. They were paying 9% on earnings below ?15,000.

:11:54. > :11:56.We have made the monthly repayments less which helps young people get a

:11:57. > :12:01.mortgage because the companies look at what your fixed outgoings are. So

:12:02. > :12:07.you are sitting here as a Tory minister and saying to me that you

:12:08. > :12:11.are perfectly happy with the young person starting out on life earning

:12:12. > :12:20.?22,000 a year to face a marginal rate of tax of 41%? If they are

:12:21. > :12:24.earning or repaying for the cost of their higher education, 9% of your

:12:25. > :12:30.earnings above ?21,000 is affordable. It's lower than

:12:31. > :12:35.graduates currently repay. It came through under the Blair system. They

:12:36. > :12:39.were paying 9%. So we have lowered their monthly outgoings. That is

:12:40. > :12:43.actually a significant price. We did it deliberately to help younger

:12:44. > :12:47.people so they would low lower fees and to help them get into the jobs

:12:48. > :12:51.market. I don't know if many young people think that. I wonder

:12:52. > :12:55.actually, it strikes me that the other side of this is that in 2010

:12:56. > :13:02.you were expecting 30% of youngsters to be paying it back, is that right?

:13:03. > :13:08.Or not paying it back? Amounts of money we are measuring, not people.

:13:09. > :13:13.What is your point? It's this, on a 48% default rate, it means that we

:13:14. > :13:16.are having hundreds of thousands of youngsters leaving university who're

:13:17. > :13:21.not getting jobs where they can earn more than ?21,000 and that speaks to

:13:22. > :13:26.the crisis in terms of the cost-of-living more than anything

:13:27. > :13:30.else, it seems to me. It speaks to me about long-term unemployment of

:13:31. > :13:37.youngsters. We haven't got much time. I'll not let you filibuster

:13:38. > :13:43.the policies. I'm not. What was their policy? Going into the next

:13:44. > :13:47.general election we are looking at our options. We don't know how big

:13:48. > :13:52.the black hole is that we know that there is in terms of the budget, so

:13:53. > :13:57.we need to have a better idea of exactly how much money. So you can't

:13:58. > :14:01.tell me this morning any of the parameters of the Labour policy

:14:02. > :14:05.even? I'm in favour, Ed Miliband's in favour, many are in favour of the

:14:06. > :14:09.idea of a graduate tax. That has always been what we have wanted to

:14:10. > :14:13.do, it's a question of what the practical and effective. How big

:14:14. > :14:16.would that be? Do you know what, I remember in 2010 being in the

:14:17. > :14:19.corridor in Parliament where all the Lib Demes were going along and

:14:20. > :14:23.signing a form saying they weren't going to put up fees and they were

:14:24. > :14:27.taking the Mickey out of me going, oh, you are not going to sign this,

:14:28. > :14:32.and I said because we are a party of Government. Frankly, I don't care

:14:33. > :14:37.what happened in 2010. What I'm asking you is what is going to

:14:38. > :14:41.happen in 2015, graduate tax, how big? I'm saying we are a party of

:14:42. > :14:45.Government and the promises we make we intend to fulfil. You haven't

:14:46. > :14:49.promised anything? ? Exactly, because we are looking properly at

:14:50. > :14:54.our options. As time goes on, the economic gets worse, the black hole

:14:55. > :14:59.gets worse. The economy is getting worse? Yes. In 2010 when they

:15:00. > :15:03.announce about 30% defaults, it was at a time when the economy was

:15:04. > :15:05.expanding. Then three years of flatlining in terms of the economy,

:15:06. > :15:10.so therefore things get worse and worse. What about the economy now?

:15:11. > :15:15.Well the economy is getting better in terms of there is some growth.

:15:16. > :15:20.Not getting worse? It's the beginning of a heartbeat but it's

:15:21. > :15:24.not based on investment or exports, any of the things that you would

:15:25. > :15:28.normally expect the economy be based on. As you will understand if you

:15:29. > :15:33.haven't got a policy it's hard to ask you any questions about it so

:15:34. > :15:38.let's go to Greg Mulholland. How rude can you be, Andrew? ! How can I

:15:39. > :15:41.ask you if you don't have a policy? I'm explaining that we are a serious

:15:42. > :15:46.party looking at serious promises that we can put into our manifesto

:15:47. > :15:50.that makes some sense. We are not going to pluck things out of the air

:15:51. > :15:53.the way the Lib Dems have done. You have been in that position for your

:15:54. > :15:54.years... When you get a policy I'll ask you questions about it. You

:15:55. > :16:09.haven't at the moment so I can't. had stuck to his guns? I think the

:16:10. > :16:18.party in government made a mistake in terms of agreeing to what

:16:19. > :16:24.happened. The system we have is as David Willetts said extremely

:16:25. > :16:28.progressive. Far more than an upfront fee system. I am firmly in

:16:29. > :16:32.favour of a graduate tax. The tragedy of the decision made is that

:16:33. > :16:37.this perception we have these huge fees when we really do not have fees

:16:38. > :16:42.in any sense at all, we have a graduate repayment system that

:16:43. > :16:48.triggers when people are earning over a very generous limit. They

:16:49. > :16:55.will then pay their money back over 25 years. It is not a fees system.

:16:56. > :16:58.Communication was wrong. What difference would it be between

:16:59. > :17:05.whether you pay back through the tax system your loan or you pay a

:17:06. > :17:11.graduate tax? Fundamental. That is why I will continue arguing strongly

:17:12. > :17:16.for a graduate tax. The problem is the system because it is technically

:17:17. > :17:22.a loan, a loan based on the fee levels, therefore technically it is

:17:23. > :17:28.a debt. As you have said, it has certain issues. If it is a tax, a

:17:29. > :17:34.cap tax that can only last the 25 years, that is very different. It

:17:35. > :17:41.has no implications for people's borrowing, for their credit rating.

:17:42. > :17:44.I think that we are seeing I hope all three parties move to an

:17:45. > :17:48.agreement on this and that is what we need. There has been bickering.

:17:49. > :17:53.Let us not forget it was Labour who first said they would not introduce

:17:54. > :17:57.top-up fees and did. The Liberal Democrats have not been able to

:17:58. > :18:03.fulfil the policy we wanted to stop but we have a fairer system than we

:18:04. > :18:13.had before. -- we wanted to. But we have a fairer system. David

:18:14. > :18:19.Willetts, I do not understand the difference between a graduate tax

:18:20. > :18:22.and repaying my student fees for 25 years. Ella McReddie first

:18:23. > :18:30.difference is the amount you are repaying is linked to a payment made

:18:31. > :18:37.to your university that you chose -- the first difference is. ?9,000, I

:18:38. > :18:40.have chosen to pay it to this university. It means the

:18:41. > :18:46.universities have to focus on quality of teaching. The graduate

:18:47. > :18:53.tax this appears into the Treasury. There is no guarantee it will get to

:18:54. > :18:58.universities. It only makes sense is different universities are charging

:18:59. > :19:03.different amounts. You said, it will be very red, only 13 universities

:19:04. > :19:12.will charge ?9,000. They all do. The idea of shopping around and saving

:19:13. > :19:15.money... It doesn't make sense. It is shopping around to choose the

:19:16. > :19:21.universities that that has the best committee teaching and the best

:19:22. > :19:28.outcomes. How worried are you that there are not more students earning

:19:29. > :19:36.over ?21,000? Most do on more than that. The issue will be what happens

:19:37. > :19:39.in the Labour force. I want to see well-paid graduates and diving

:19:40. > :19:45.universities are focusing on that. We will be coming back to both of

:19:46. > :19:51.you on this. Now, you know how it is. You've

:19:52. > :19:55.popped out to lunch or a drink with a journalist after a hard day at

:19:56. > :19:58.work in the Commons. You have a bit of a gossip. Then before you know

:19:59. > :20:01.it, the contents of your conversation are splashed all over a

:20:02. > :20:05.newspaper or a TV network. I thought that was how it worked. Sometimes

:20:06. > :20:09.the politicians mean to do it. But at other times, it all just seems to

:20:10. > :20:12.get a bit out of hand. That may be what happened at the weekend when an

:20:13. > :20:15.unnamed Government minister told a reporter that an independent

:20:16. > :20:24.Scotland might be able to use the pound after all. Here's Giles.

:20:25. > :20:28.At the weekend, and earned named UK minister told the guardian that an

:20:29. > :20:33.independent Scotland could keep the pound. -- an unnamed UK minister.

:20:34. > :20:41.All major parties have joined forces to say they couldn't so it is odd.

:20:42. > :20:44.We do not know who the mole was. On -- Oliver Letwin had to disappear

:20:45. > :20:48.into hiding after it emerged he was the source of a newspaper story

:20:49. > :20:53.saying the Tories had plans beyond the manifesto for ?20 billion of

:20:54. > :20:59.cuts in tax and government spending. When he emerged to fling himself, it

:21:00. > :21:06.got worse. I also set out what William Hague and Michael Portillo

:21:07. > :21:12.has set out. John Major's back to basics speech in 1993. It was

:21:13. > :21:18.intended as a nostalgic appeal to traditional values. The spin Doctor

:21:19. > :21:23.Tim Collins briefed the press that John Major was intent on rolling

:21:24. > :21:27.back the permissive society and then with more of a bang and some

:21:28. > :21:31.whimpers a succession of Conservative ministers were caught

:21:32. > :21:34.up in sex scandals. The Lib Dem leadership contest in 2007 got

:21:35. > :21:42.personal after Chris Huhne was confronted with a document called

:21:43. > :21:45.calamity Nick Clegg on the BBC. He looked extremely uncomfortable as he

:21:46. > :21:51.insisted he had not seen it, authorised it, indeed he had none of

:21:52. > :21:58.his fingerprints all over it. Sometimes just occasionally

:21:59. > :22:02.politicians on up. In 2009, John Hutton admitted he was the Cabinet

:22:03. > :22:10.minister who told the BBC's Nick Robinson in 2006... It would be a

:22:11. > :22:15.disaster if Gordon Brown was PM. I will do anything in my power to stop

:22:16. > :22:24.him. He sensed that his opinion of Mr Brown had changed.

:22:25. > :22:29.Harmony at the top of politics. Everyone is tittering in the studio.

:22:30. > :22:34.David Willetts, have you ever told a journalist something you regret it?

:22:35. > :22:38.I'm sure it has happened. I am not sure I can offer you any good

:22:39. > :22:44.examples. I can tell you how it helps solve a problem. I used to

:22:45. > :22:48.help Margaret Thatcher right some of her speeches. It was a terrible

:22:49. > :22:53.process. It took ages. We got completely stuck. Bernard Ingham

:22:54. > :22:58.comes into the room and says the lobby had been asking about what she

:22:59. > :23:01.was going to say in the next big speech. I thought it might be hell

:23:02. > :23:08.for if I told you what I have told them. He then reported to us what he

:23:09. > :23:15.had briefed and he solved our problem. -- I thought it might be

:23:16. > :23:21.helpful. You think that is the way forward? Who do you think spoke to

:23:22. > :23:26.the Guardian about the currency union debate? The only thing I know

:23:27. > :23:30.is it is clear that if Scotland left the UK there would also be leaving

:23:31. > :23:36.the pound -- they would also be leaving the pound. That is something

:23:37. > :23:43.which all three parties agree on. Interestingly, a journalist from the

:23:44. > :23:51.Sun said on this programme that he was convinced it was Oliver Letwin

:23:52. > :23:55.or Vince Cable. I know nothing about the background to this. The only

:23:56. > :23:59.thing I know and what matters to people in Scotland is that if

:24:00. > :24:03.Scotland were sadly to leave the UK it would not be able to continue to

:24:04. > :24:08.participate in the pound. The pound would be one of the many costs if we

:24:09. > :24:13.were to see Scotland vote for separation. Somebody has said to me

:24:14. > :24:16.not that I want to enter into this debate, that negotiations go on

:24:17. > :24:20.behind-the-scenes and there are politicians who will say things to

:24:21. > :24:27.journalist to get a story out. It is true. People tend to know who they

:24:28. > :24:33.are. They are not trusted. They are not trusted by their colleagues. You

:24:34. > :24:39.have lunches with journalists. I do and I have learnt to be careful.

:24:40. > :24:42.Have you been caught out? I was standing in a marginal seat and all

:24:43. > :24:47.of the newspapers wanted to write a piece which was not good Labour

:24:48. > :24:52.candidate doing well in a Labour marginal. They wanted to run Labour

:24:53. > :24:58.is going to lose as ten. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I would not

:24:59. > :25:03.answer any calls -- lose Islington. I was told I had to bite Number 10.

:25:04. > :25:08.A job was done on me. Horrible things were written about me, my

:25:09. > :25:12.kids. I had not been in politics before and it was a crash course in

:25:13. > :25:23.not trusting journalists. Sweet as you are. Thank you. Sweet? I would

:25:24. > :25:34.not call him sweet! Some politicians get a reputation for leaking. That

:25:35. > :25:37.was why Margaret Thatcher turned to someone in the early days because he

:25:38. > :25:44.had a reputation for speaking too much to the press. Your colleagues

:25:45. > :25:47.briefing about Ed Miliband having a more radical policy, are they not to

:25:48. > :25:59.be trusted? You probably know who they are. I am not saying anything.

:26:00. > :26:03.It is live. There was the wise Enoch Powell advice who said politicians

:26:04. > :26:06.complaining about the media was like sailors complaining about the

:26:07. > :26:10.weather. It is the environment within which you function. You say

:26:11. > :26:16.Scotland cannot have the pound and so does Labour, but if the SNP wins,

:26:17. > :26:21.they will say, you cannot have your nuclear subs in Scotland. That is

:26:22. > :26:32.the makings of a deal. I am not going there. It was not you who did

:26:33. > :26:37.the leaking. George Osborne said this week he wants to achieve full

:26:38. > :26:40.employment in the UK. And you thought that went out of fashion

:26:41. > :26:44.with platform shoes and black and white telly. Well, Ed Miliband has

:26:45. > :26:47.already leapt into action. He's keen to do his bit to help and so he's

:26:48. > :26:50.started advertising for something called a Head of the Leader's

:26:51. > :26:53.Broadcasting. Whoever gets the job will get about ?44,000 a year. Just

:26:54. > :26:57.into the 40% tax bracket. They'll need to have experience of dealing

:26:58. > :27:00.with good and bad news stories. Probably plenty of the latter.

:27:01. > :27:03.Apparently the Labour leader is also looking for someone who can develop

:27:04. > :27:08.fresh ideas to make the best of his brand strengths. If they know some

:27:09. > :27:11.thing about graduate tax, it would properly be an advantage. One area

:27:12. > :27:15.they'll be looking to address is that according to one recent poll

:27:16. > :27:18.81% of people say they can't imagine Ed Miliband as PM. You cruel lot.

:27:19. > :27:22.So, here's a fresh idea for turning that around. Just take a look at

:27:23. > :27:34.this brand leader. He's no mug. He won three elections you know. Here

:27:35. > :27:37.at the Daily Politics we know how to ceramic -- ceramically enhance any

:27:38. > :27:44.image. Just imagine if Ed was standing outside Number 10 holding a

:27:45. > :27:47.Daily Politics mug. There he is. Instant prime ministerial gravitas.

:27:48. > :27:56.And you don't need to pay us ?44,000 a year, Ed. 8-ender will do. -- a

:27:57. > :28:00.tenner. No, we'll give you one for free, but only if you stop preparing

:28:01. > :28:04.for PMQs and enter Guess the Year. We'll remind you how to enter in a

:28:05. > :28:20.minute, but let's see if you can remember when this happened.

:28:21. > :28:30.# When will I be famous? # The only way is up, baby # For you

:28:31. > :28:42.and me now. The Department of Health was and

:28:43. > :28:50.continues to be concerned. # I want you to be my baby # It has got to be

:28:51. > :29:04.perfect. # It has got to be worth it # Too

:29:05. > :29:08.many people take second best... To be in with a chance of winning a

:29:09. > :29:12.Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz email address.

:29:13. > :29:20.And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on our

:29:21. > :29:26.website. It's coming up to midday here. Big Ben is there through the

:29:27. > :29:29.pollution. Prime Minister's Questions in a couple of minutes. If

:29:30. > :29:38.you would like to comment on proceedings, you can e-mail us or

:29:39. > :29:44.tweet your thoughts. We will read some out after PMQs. Nick Robinson

:29:45. > :29:52.is here. As always. Or nearly always. What are they going to argue

:29:53. > :29:55.about today? I said yesterday I thought he would use the phrase

:29:56. > :30:00.about standing up for the wrong people. You had a lively, session

:30:01. > :30:06.about whether Labour has policies. Just one. There is a debate about

:30:07. > :30:11.that. If you are in opposition trying to hold back because it is

:30:12. > :30:16.still a long way until the general election, what you want to do is

:30:17. > :30:20.seize on something that shows money is being spent badly by the

:30:21. > :30:24.government of the day and claim that they are doing it to help their

:30:25. > :30:27.chums in the city and not to help the ordinary guy. It is

:30:28. > :30:32.irresistible. It tells you nothing about what Labour would do in

:30:33. > :30:39.government. It positions them. I would not say that in front of

:30:40. > :30:48.Emily. It is PMQs. It is us asking him questions. I rest my case. I am

:30:49. > :31:02.in a mood today. He got me going. I did not mean it as they criticism.

:31:03. > :31:10.That is what opposition wants to do. That is why it is irresistible. This

:31:11. > :31:13.is quite rare for an opposition to her. They have an independent

:31:14. > :31:17.spending watchdog saying hundreds of millions of pounds the taxpayer

:31:18. > :31:21.could have had they have not got. If you cannot score a goal without

:31:22. > :31:27.help, you never will. Vince Cable got quite a tough time in Parliament

:31:28. > :31:32.earlier this week. It is interesting that David Willetts's boss was

:31:33. > :31:39.dismissive of calls for him to resign.

:31:40. > :31:44.This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others

:31:45. > :31:47.and in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such

:31:48. > :32:00.meetings later today. Is the Prime Minister aware that

:32:01. > :32:04.3956 people are in the rented sector. Two thirds feel insecure,

:32:05. > :32:09.half think they pay far too much in rent. Does he not think it's time to

:32:10. > :32:14.end the social cleansing of inner city Britain by bringing in proper

:32:15. > :32:19.rent regulation with a fair rent formula and total regulation of the

:32:20. > :32:26.private rented sector to give people security and peace of mind where

:32:27. > :32:31.they live? Where I'm sure we'd agree is that there is a need to build

:32:32. > :32:35.more houses, including those in the private rented sector. Where I think

:32:36. > :32:39.he's wrong is full-on rent controls have been tried in the past and it's

:32:40. > :32:42.tended to destroy the private rented sector, drive everyone back to the

:32:43. > :32:48.state sector and reduce the quality of housing as a result.

:32:49. > :32:52.In the week when our Right Honourable friend, the Chancellor of

:32:53. > :32:57.the Exchequer has spoken of the importance to the Government of

:32:58. > :33:02.securing full employment, can my right honourable friend confirm that

:33:03. > :33:07.the record shows that no Labour Government in history left office

:33:08. > :33:13.with unemployment lower than when he came to office?

:33:14. > :33:17.Does this not illustrate in this area, as in all others, the

:33:18. > :33:23.importance of the principle that what matters is what works?

:33:24. > :33:27.My right honourable friend is factually correct. Every Labour

:33:28. > :33:31.Government's left office with unemployment higher than when it

:33:32. > :33:36.came to office. In this Parliament, what we've seen

:33:37. > :33:43.is 1.7 million more people employed in the private sector, 1.3 million

:33:44. > :33:47.more people employed as a whole, one of the highest rates of employment

:33:48. > :33:48.in history and we'll keep up the work to offer more hope and security

:33:49. > :34:03.to our people. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister

:34:04. > :34:09.tell the House what is his excuse for the Royal Mail fiasco?

:34:10. > :34:15.What I would say about the Royal Mail is that taxpayers benefitted

:34:16. > :34:20.from selling the business for ?2 billion. That, of course, is ?2

:34:21. > :34:25.billion that the party opposite never achieved because they were

:34:26. > :34:28.never able to sell the business. Mr Speaker, here is what his own

:34:29. > :34:34.side are saying about this issue. The member for Northampton South

:34:35. > :34:42.said yesterday it was a debacle, unethical and immoral. He sold the

:34:43. > :34:46.shares for ?330p, what are they trading at snout They are trading

:34:47. > :34:55.ahead of where they were sold, but the fact is this - when the Right

:34:56. > :34:59.Honourable gentleman... THE SPEAKER: Order. Neither the

:35:00. > :35:02.Prime Minister nor the Leader of the Opposition nor any other member in

:35:03. > :35:07.this House must be shouted down. It's not on. The Prime Minister.

:35:08. > :35:18.When the Right Honourable gentleman was sitting in the Cabinet, this

:35:19. > :35:22.business lost half a be. It's in the private sector, making taxes and

:35:23. > :35:26.working hard for our country -- half a billion pounds. There are over

:35:27. > :35:30.140,000 people, more to the point, who work for the Post Office,

:35:31. > :35:35.delivering letters, delivering parcels, who own shares in the

:35:36. > :35:39.business that they work for. They've got a stake in the future of

:35:40. > :35:42.the Royal Mail. They are collecting dividends, as well as pay. And

:35:43. > :35:47.that's something we should all be proud of.

:35:48. > :35:54.Mr Speaker, he can't answer the question because it's such an

:35:55. > :36:06.embarrassment. He sold at 330p and this morning the price was 563p.

:36:07. > :36:11.It's basic maths, Mr Speaker. Not so much the walrus of Wall Street, but

:36:12. > :36:16.the Dunce of Downing Street. Let me ask him this, if Royal Mail was sold

:36:17. > :36:23.at today's price, how much more would the taxpayer have paid? I will

:36:24. > :36:30.take a lecture from almost anyone in the country about the sale of Royal

:36:31. > :36:35.Mail, but not from the two muppets who advised the Chancellor on

:36:36. > :36:41.selling last time. There they sit, not a word of apology, ?9 billion

:36:42. > :36:48.wasted. The Royal Mail privatisation's got ?2 billion for

:36:49. > :36:51.the taxpayer, 140,000 employees owning shares, 700,000 members of

:36:52. > :36:56.the lick who're now shareholders. This is a great success for our

:36:57. > :37:00.country and something he should be praising.

:37:01. > :37:08.Mr Speaker, again, he can't answer the question. The answer is, the

:37:09. > :37:14.taxpayer would have got ?1.4 billion less for this valuable asset for

:37:15. > :37:16.what it's worth today. Here is the thing, Mr Speaker.

:37:17. > :37:20.THE SPEAKER: Order, when the Prime Minister was speaking, I said he

:37:21. > :37:23.should. Shouted down and nuclear should anybody else. However hard

:37:24. > :37:28.the effort is made to shout someone down, it won't work because we'll

:37:29. > :37:32.just keep going. So the sooner the juveniles can grow up and reach

:37:33. > :37:36.adulthood, so much the better! Ed Miliband!

:37:37. > :37:42.Here is the thing, Mr Speaker. A third of the shares were sold to

:37:43. > :37:46.just 16 City investors. And get this. There was a gentleman's

:37:47. > :37:50.agreement that those City investors wouldn't sell the shares. What

:37:51. > :37:55.happened? Within weeks, half of the shares had been sold and they made a

:37:56. > :38:01.killing worth hundreds of millions of pounds. In other words, mates

:38:02. > :38:05.rates to his friends in the City. Maybe he can tell us what happened

:38:06. > :38:10.to that gentleman's agreement about those shares?

:38:11. > :38:17.Mr Speaker, we know why he's asking this question. Because he's paid to

:38:18. > :38:25.by the Trade Unions. Pf Yes, yes. Mr Speaker, he sat in the

:38:26. > :38:29.Cabinet that wanted to privatise the Royal Mail. That was their

:38:30. > :38:33.commitment. And what happened was the General Secretary of the

:38:34. > :38:38.Communications Workers' Union said this; in terms of the last Labour

:38:39. > :38:42.Government, they tried to privatise the Royal Mail. It was the unions

:38:43. > :38:45.that brought the Government to its senses.

:38:46. > :38:48.Once again, they were weak in Government because they couldn't

:38:49. > :38:52.carry out their policies. They're weak in opposition because they

:38:53. > :38:56.don't support shareholding by post workers in the Royal Mail. They are

:38:57. > :39:04.weak because they've got no economic policy and they are weak because

:39:05. > :39:08.they have got no plan. He's flogged it off to his friends

:39:09. > :39:12.in the City and he can't answer the question. Now I'm going to ask him

:39:13. > :39:16.the question again. There was a gentleman's agreement that these

:39:17. > :39:22.long-term investors, so-called, would not sell their shares. But

:39:23. > :39:25.half of them were sold and hundreds of millions of pounds were made.

:39:26. > :39:30.What happened to that agreement, Stance question? What happened is

:39:31. > :39:37.that the taxpayer is ?2 billion better off, yes. Anyone who's sold

:39:38. > :39:39.shares has missed out on what is a successful business. The truth is

:39:40. > :39:43.this, Mr Speaker. He sat in a Cabinet that wanted to privatise the

:39:44. > :39:46.Royal Mail, they couldn't do it. THE SPEAKER: Order. Lets's hear the

:39:47. > :39:51.answer. Prime Minister? They couldn't do it because the

:39:52. > :39:58.Trade Unions won't let them. There are now 140,000 shareholders working

:39:59. > :40:02.for the Royal Mail. There are almost three quarters of a million members

:40:03. > :40:05.of the public with shares. These are signs for celebration in our

:40:06. > :40:08.country, not talking them down because they are anti-market,

:40:09. > :40:11.anticompetitive and antibusiness. Nothing's changed in the Labour

:40:12. > :40:16.Party. No wonder they've advertised this week for someone to bring some

:40:17. > :40:25.fresh ideas to the leadership. Yes. I've got the commercial here. You

:40:26. > :40:29.should have the ability to manage the different teams across the

:40:30. > :40:33.Labour Party. I think that must be the hardest job

:40:34. > :40:37.in Britain. No wonder they are looking for a

:40:38. > :40:43.change because there's a leader there who hasn't got a clue.

:40:44. > :40:49.Mr Speaker, he's gone as red as a post box and that's because he knows

:40:50. > :40:54.that he's lost ?1.4 billion for the taxpayer. This is a sale nobody

:40:55. > :40:59.wanted and nobody voted for, a national asset sold at a knockdown

:41:00. > :41:03.price to make a fortune for the few. It's a symbol of a Government who

:41:04. > :41:09.stands up for the wrong people with the British people paying the price.

:41:10. > :41:18.Mr Speaker, it's a sale nobody wanted he said. It was in his

:41:19. > :41:23.manifesto. It was a commitment of the last Government. They are

:41:24. > :41:28.shaking their heads. They worked so hard, Mr Speaker, they failed to do

:41:29. > :41:33.it, but this coalition Government privatised the Royal Mail, created

:41:34. > :41:36.thousands of new shareholders, they have a great business working for

:41:37. > :41:40.Britain and we've seen it all from Labour this week. They are

:41:41. > :41:46.advertising for fresh ideas, people around him are fighting like ferrets

:41:47. > :41:50.in the sack. Their top advise, get this Mr Speaker, their top adviser

:41:51. > :41:55.is called Arnie and he's gone to America. But unlike Arnie, he said

:41:56. > :42:02."I'm not coming back". They are warring, they are weak and they

:42:03. > :42:05.haven't got a plan. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

:42:06. > :42:10.It's as quick to go 225 miles of land and sea from here to Brussels

:42:11. > :42:14.as it is on the train to Norwich, half the distance. Will my right

:42:15. > :42:17.honourable friend agree with me that East Anglia needs investment in

:42:18. > :42:23.better, faster rail infrastructure and that the Norwich task will bring

:42:24. > :42:28.the benefits to businesses and passengers in Norfolk, Suffolk and

:42:29. > :42:32.Essex? I pay tribute to the holt and others for the work they are doing

:42:33. > :42:35.on the Norwich Task Force. This is a very important project. I welcome

:42:36. > :42:38.the interest shown by business leaders, local authorities and

:42:39. > :42:42.enterprise partnerships. East Anglia is one of the fastest growing parts

:42:43. > :42:44.of the UK, with world class companies and universities, better

:42:45. > :42:47.transport will support and bolster this growth and I look forward to

:42:48. > :42:51.the Task Force report that I know that she is working on and I hope

:42:52. > :42:56.this will be used to shape the specification for the long rail

:42:57. > :43:01.franchise that should start in 2016. Mr Speaker, 35 years ago, the SNP

:43:02. > :43:11.and the Tories united to bring down the Labour Government and bring in

:43:12. > :43:16.Margaret Thatcher. Note Mr Speaker, there's noise from two sides on this

:43:17. > :43:20.one. Today, the SNP and the Tories are united on the side of tax cuts

:43:21. > :43:25.for big business. United on the side of the energy companies and united

:43:26. > :43:28.against a 50p tax. Doesn't this demonstrate, Prime Minister, that

:43:29. > :43:33.what people across the UK need is not a separation between Scotland

:43:34. > :43:38.and England but liberation from right-wing Tory economics?

:43:39. > :43:41.He has provided I think Mr Speaker, a very useful public service which

:43:42. > :43:44.he has reminded me of one useful thing that the SNP have done in

:43:45. > :43:50.their history which was to get rid of that dreadful Labour Government

:43:51. > :43:54.that nationalised half of British industry made such a mess. Where I

:43:55. > :43:58.don't agree with him. I agree with him on one very important thing. In

:43:59. > :44:01.spite of his views, I do agree that the United Kingdom is much better

:44:02. > :44:05.off together. But one of the issues he raised I think is completely

:44:06. > :44:09.wrong. This is the week that we have cut corporation tax to 21%. That is

:44:10. > :44:13.going to attract businesses into England, into Wales, into Scotland,

:44:14. > :44:18.into Northern Ireland. He should be standing up and praising this tax

:44:19. > :44:22.reduce cut in Government rather than criticising it. The planning

:44:23. > :44:26.inspector recently told a closed meeting in Gloucestershire that he'd

:44:27. > :44:31.give more weight to consultants economic models than to "10,000

:44:32. > :44:35.objections from local people". Is that what the national planning

:44:36. > :44:39.frame work meant by empowering local people?

:44:40. > :44:43.The national planning framework is very clear about the importance of

:44:44. > :44:46.listening to local people in terms of development and my right

:44:47. > :44:49.honourable friend would have received a letter recently to

:44:50. > :44:53.explain some of the changes in the guidance under the framework to make

:44:54. > :44:57.sure, for instance, that previous housing performance by local

:44:58. > :45:02.councils is taken into account and in his very important decisions.

:45:03. > :45:05.Thank you, Mr Speaker. At a time of unpress dented crisis, the Prime

:45:06. > :45:10.Minister saw at first hand just how good the west Cumberland Hospital in

:45:11. > :45:13.my constituency can be. Six years into the rebuilding programme, the

:45:14. > :45:16.hospital's been plunged into crisis. It's been starved of staff and faces

:45:17. > :45:20.being stripped of key clinical services. The nearest hospital isn't

:45:21. > :45:23.just down the road, it's 42 miles away in Carlisle. That too is

:45:24. > :45:27.struggling. Will the Prime Minister commit today

:45:28. > :45:31.to do everything he can to assist me, local clinicians and my

:45:32. > :45:35.community in retaining consultant-led services in the west

:45:36. > :45:38.Cumberland Hospital? I saw for myself what an excellent job the

:45:39. > :45:43.hospital does and how important it is. What I would say is that, of

:45:44. > :45:47.course, the Clinical Commissioning Group total revenues that are

:45:48. > :45:52.available this year has an increase of 2.3%, ?636 million, because this

:45:53. > :45:55.Government decided to protect NHS spending and not cut NHS spending

:45:56. > :46:04.and that is why important hospital developments can go ahead.

:46:05. > :46:10.Can the right honourable friend tell the house what steps the government

:46:11. > :46:18.is taking to support entrepreneurs becoming employers? He is right. We

:46:19. > :46:21.need to make it easier for someone to take on their first employee and

:46:22. > :46:28.that is why this Saturday we are bringing in the ?2000 employment

:46:29. > :46:35.allowance which means every business that employs someone will see a tax

:46:36. > :46:39.reduction of up to ?2000. It means 55,000 businesses will be taken out

:46:40. > :46:42.of paying National Insurance contributions altogether. The party

:46:43. > :46:50.opposite introduced jobs taxes, we are cutting them. At the weekend, a

:46:51. > :46:57.general warned that reducing the regular army to 82000 x 2020 would

:46:58. > :47:04.weaken the Armed Forces and was a risk to take. Could be promised at

:47:05. > :47:09.LB housewife he thinks it is not one hell of a risk? -- could the Prime

:47:10. > :47:17.Minister tell the house why he thinks it is not one hell of a risk

:47:18. > :47:24.# I have been out to Afghanistan every year since 2006 and I was

:47:25. > :47:29.asked the same question. Do you have the equipment you need? Is there

:47:30. > :47:38.anything you want? We have seen real improvements in equipment. Yes, we

:47:39. > :47:42.will have an army of 82,000. We have will have larger reserve forces and

:47:43. > :47:48.we will have Armed Forces and defence equipment that this country

:47:49. > :47:56.can be very proud of. Following last week's excellent news of the Siemens

:47:57. > :48:00.development in Hull, it is vital we move quickly with projects planned

:48:01. > :48:06.for the Southbank of the Humber. All parties must work together to make

:48:07. > :48:11.sure it becomes the green energy capital of the UK. I absolutely

:48:12. > :48:13.agree. The announcement is a huge step forward because I think it is

:48:14. > :48:19.going to bring an enormous amount of industry with it in terms of supply

:48:20. > :48:25.and component manufacturing. We need to make sure the colleges are

:48:26. > :48:29.training up apprentices and working to attract businesses to the area.

:48:30. > :48:32.There are still agreements needed in other parts of Humberside to make

:48:33. > :48:38.sure all of the developments go ahead. The Prime Minister will know

:48:39. > :48:44.millions of people across the country value and love their Post

:48:45. > :48:49.Office account, particularly those who do not have access to banks.

:48:50. > :48:54.They want to get their cash each week. This is being renegotiated

:48:55. > :48:59.with the DWP. Will he give a commitment that whatever happens,

:49:00. > :49:03.pensioners and everyone on benefits or otherwise, they will be able to

:49:04. > :49:10.access through the Post Office to get the money that they need? I will

:49:11. > :49:14.look carefully at what she says. It is important for people to be able

:49:15. > :49:19.to use the Post Office in that way. There have been changes in the way

:49:20. > :49:26.the account works. I will look very closely at what she says and perhaps

:49:27. > :49:30.write to her. Would my right honourable friend accept that on

:49:31. > :49:38.this 100th anniversary of the First World War the Territorial Army won

:49:39. > :49:43.71 Victoria crosses and thousands of other decorations and that by

:49:44. > :49:46.learning the lessons of our English speaking cousins in America and the

:49:47. > :49:50.pivotal role in the National Guard has played in Iraq and Afghanistan

:49:51. > :49:56.that is the way to ensure we can afford the equipment we need for our

:49:57. > :50:00.armed Forces for the future? Let me pay tribute to my honourable friend

:50:01. > :50:04.who has campaigned long and hard for the Territorial Army and the other

:50:05. > :50:07.reserve forces. The point he makes is good. In Afghanistan today, you

:50:08. > :50:13.can see the Territorial Army working alongside the regular army, fighting

:50:14. > :50:16.with them and being decorated with them in the brave actions they have

:50:17. > :50:21.pursued. Other countries have shown it is possible to have a large

:50:22. > :50:24.reserve force alongside the regular force and that is the way to have a

:50:25. > :50:31.well-equipped and flexible army and navy and air force. The Lanzarote

:50:32. > :50:35.convection sets a European wide standard for the protection of

:50:36. > :50:40.children against sexual exploitation. The UK have signed it

:50:41. > :50:44.but have not yet ratified it. Following recent episodes of

:50:45. > :50:46.grooming in the UK included in my borough of Rochdale, will be

:50:47. > :50:54.government now consider ratifying this very important convention? I

:50:55. > :50:58.absolutely agree with him that child sexual exportation is an abhorrent

:50:59. > :51:03.crime. We have seen some extremely disturbing cases and not just in

:51:04. > :51:07.Rochdale, but also in the county I represent of oxygen. I understand

:51:08. > :51:10.there is a small amount of further assessment to be done before the UK

:51:11. > :51:16.is in a position to ratify the convection. -- the convention. Does

:51:17. > :51:25.he agree with me that the doubling of capital allowances to half ?1

:51:26. > :51:30.million provides a welcome boost to manufacturers will increase

:51:31. > :51:39.investment in the sector, securing more jobs for British people? --

:51:40. > :51:43.?500,000. This is a key part of our long-term economic plan. One of the

:51:44. > :51:48.remarkable things about the budget was the ways it said we would

:51:49. > :51:52.address some of the perennial weaknesses in the British economy.

:51:53. > :51:56.We need to export more. We need to invest more. We need to improve our

:51:57. > :52:00.performance in those regards and ensure the investment is spread

:52:01. > :52:06.around the country. Unlike the party opposite, we will not be satisfied

:52:07. > :52:10.with an unbalanced recovery. Today the Ford motor company agreed in

:52:11. > :52:17.multi-million pound contribution towards a pension fund, for former

:52:18. > :52:22.Ford employees. Will the Prime Minister Erdogan congratulate the

:52:23. > :52:31.Unite union alongside a cross-party group of MPs... -- will the Prime

:52:32. > :52:41.Minister congratulate. They have agreed to commit to other pensioners

:52:42. > :52:45.who faced the same plight. I did not catch the end of his question. This

:52:46. > :52:48.is a good development for all of those who played a role. There are

:52:49. > :52:52.colleagues on all sides of the house who have been involved. They are to

:52:53. > :52:57.be credited for the work they have done to make sure we get justice. I

:52:58. > :53:02.welcome the government's intervention on fuel bills, many

:53:03. > :53:06.rural people do not benefit from mains gas and depend on more

:53:07. > :53:09.expensive fuels. We'll the government investigate a way in

:53:10. > :53:18.which they can benefit these off grid customers who often live in

:53:19. > :53:22.fuel poverty? -- will be government. He raises an important point. There

:53:23. > :53:25.are things we can do, not least in encouraging the power of group

:53:26. > :53:30.purchasing buying Courage in communities to come together and buy

:53:31. > :53:35.oil and gas together to drive down prices. I am sure he will be looking

:53:36. > :53:43.at options available. Three months ago I asked the Prime Minister

:53:44. > :53:47.Erdogan his ?1000 tax which anyone joining the police has to play -- I

:53:48. > :53:54.asked the Prime Minister about his ?1000 tax. ?1000 might not be much

:53:55. > :54:01.to him but it is having a huge impact on forces like the Met who at

:54:02. > :54:06.2000 officers Strand and finding it impossible to recruit. We all know

:54:07. > :54:12.the tax is wrong. Order. This question will be heard. Braying and

:54:13. > :54:17.sneering and making rude remarks is the sort of thing the public

:54:18. > :54:26.despise. The honourable lady will be heard and the persons sneering all

:54:27. > :54:31.to be ashamed of themselves. This is an important issue to everyone in

:54:32. > :54:36.the country. We know the tax is wrong. Will the Prime Minister now

:54:37. > :54:42.accept it is not working and abolish it in order that our police get back

:54:43. > :54:47.to strength to defend the people? First of all, it is not a tax.

:54:48. > :54:51.Secondly, it is not a barrier to recruitment. Thirdly, recruitment is

:54:52. > :54:58.taking place in the Met Police. Yes, we have seen police reductions in

:54:59. > :55:03.funding. We have also seen significant cuts in crime. The Met

:55:04. > :55:10.Police are confident they will get good recruits. Bringing superfast

:55:11. > :55:13.broadband to rural areas is vitally important and be governing is

:55:14. > :55:18.rightly spending over ?1 billion on this. My constituents are very

:55:19. > :55:23.frustrated that BT cannot tell them when or if their home will be

:55:24. > :55:27.connected. It makes alternative planning impossible. Will be Prime

:55:28. > :55:33.Minister tell BT to provide clear plans for the billions of taxpayer

:55:34. > :55:36.money they are getting? I have had this discussion with BT and I am

:55:37. > :55:40.happy to hold it again. I know my honourable friend will take up this

:55:41. > :55:43.specific point which is we have asked BT to give more detail about

:55:44. > :55:50.which homes and areas will get a broadband in their roll-out plan so

:55:51. > :55:54.other companies and organisations are able to see whether there are

:55:55. > :55:58.different ways of filling in gaps. I do not agree with some who think BT

:55:59. > :56:08.have not been putting their shoulder to the ground. This is a real

:56:09. > :56:14.success story for our country. As a Royal Mail share price remains about

:56:15. > :56:21.70% above the flotation price, canny Prime Minister now rule out playing

:56:22. > :56:25.a ?4 million bonus from taxpayers money to its government adviser?

:56:26. > :56:32.What I would say to the honourable lady is that the taxpayer is ?2

:56:33. > :56:36.billion better off because we were able to put this business into the

:56:37. > :56:44.private sector whereas previous governments failed dismally. Mr

:56:45. > :56:50.Speaker, my constituent is seeking the right to be treated by the

:56:51. > :56:54.English run NHS, will be Prime Minister investigate what can be

:56:55. > :56:58.done to help her and other NHS refugees who are seeking higher

:56:59. > :57:06.standards which are being delivered by this covenant? -- by this

:57:07. > :57:10.government? Frankly, what is happening in our NHS in Wales is a

:57:11. > :57:13.scandal and it is a scandal that is entirely the responsibility of the

:57:14. > :57:18.Labour Party running the Welsh Assembly government. They made the

:57:19. > :57:29.decision to cut NHS spending by 8% in Wales. They have not met and A

:57:30. > :57:34.target since 2009. I do not know why the Leader of the Opposition is

:57:35. > :57:39.laughing. It is not funny. If he had any gumption, any backbone, he would

:57:40. > :57:47.get hold of the First Minister and tell him to start investing in the

:57:48. > :57:55.NHS in Wales. 25 years ago yesterday, poll tax was imposed on

:57:56. > :58:01.the people of Scotland. A Prime Minister was kicked out of office by

:58:02. > :58:08.her own party. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:58:09. > :58:14.apologise for that imposition? I did not here the beginning of the

:58:15. > :58:20.question. 25 years ago yesterday, they hated poll tax was imposed on

:58:21. > :58:24.the people of Scotland. It ended with a Prime Minister being kicked

:58:25. > :58:31.out by her own party. We'll be Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:58:32. > :58:37.apologise for that? I have made clear my view over this issue many

:58:38. > :58:40.times. Council tax is a much better replacement. The key is to keep

:58:41. > :58:48.levels down. That is why we support a freeze. In 2012, 150,000 people

:58:49. > :58:54.petitioned this has two stop charitable air ambulances having to

:58:55. > :59:00.pay VAT on fuel. Can I thank the Prime Minister for his budget which

:59:01. > :59:05.means more lives are saved? Does he agree that this is only possible

:59:06. > :59:13.because we are using the libel fines for good purposes and because we

:59:14. > :59:18.have a good plan? -- Libor. He is right. He is the founder and chair

:59:19. > :59:22.of the all-party group for air ambulances. He led a debate in the

:59:23. > :59:26.house in 2012. I am delighted about the result achieved in the budget. I

:59:27. > :59:30.think it will lead to an expansion of the service. He is also right

:59:31. > :59:34.that you can only make these decisions if you look after the

:59:35. > :59:40.nation's resources, get the deficit down. In short, if you have a

:59:41. > :59:49.long-term economic plan. Why has it taken four years to recruit just 41

:59:50. > :59:56.teachers into the ?10 million troops to teachers programme? We support

:59:57. > :00:00.the programme. I will look carefully at what the honourable gentleman

:00:01. > :00:05.says. It is a good idea, a good proposal. I want to make sure it is

:00:06. > :00:11.working. It appears on my council tax bill that the Labour led

:00:12. > :00:14.Lancashire county council and the Labour led Lancaster district

:00:15. > :00:20.Council have raised the council tax by 2%. Very shocking. Would the

:00:21. > :00:29.Prime Minister help the in finding out if it is 2% and help me sort

:00:30. > :00:34.this matter up? What I would say is that he can say to the county

:00:35. > :00:39.council and district Council is that this government is making the money

:00:40. > :00:43.available so that councils can freeze the council tax. There is no

:00:44. > :00:52.use for those who want to take the step. The council tax should be

:00:53. > :01:01.frozen. The high school in my constituency was left ever stated

:01:02. > :01:07.just before Christmas with a 14 AIDS people dying plane football -- with

:01:08. > :01:13.a 14-year-old boy died. Yesterday, a girl died when a wall tragically

:01:14. > :01:17.fell on her. I'm sure the Prime Minister would wish to send

:01:18. > :01:24.condolences to her friends, teachers and family. I think the whole house

:01:25. > :01:28.would agree with what the honourable gentleman said. This was a shocking

:01:29. > :01:31.accident. Their hearts will go out to the family and all of those

:01:32. > :01:34.involved in the school. The lessons will have to be learnt to make sure

:01:35. > :01:41.that tragic accidents like this cannot happen again. The

:01:42. > :01:49.Chancellor's cut in beer duty is great news for Britain's brewers. It

:01:50. > :01:54.will allow them to invest but it will do nothing to help the 20,000

:01:55. > :01:59.pubs tied to large companies. He has got rid of the fuel duty escalator,

:02:00. > :02:08.the beer duty escalator. Will he now tackled the pub company problem? Can

:02:09. > :02:14.I thank him for what he said about the cut in beer duty? This is about

:02:15. > :02:18.making sure the industry creates jobs and supports the pub trade. A

:02:19. > :02:23.company straight after the budget announced 3000 jobs. We want to look

:02:24. > :02:28.very carefully about what is happening in tied pubs and the

:02:29. > :02:36.activities of some companies. We are looking very closely to make sure

:02:37. > :02:41.there are fairer outcomes for Britain's publicans and pub goers.

:02:42. > :02:46.Could I ask the prime and is to what plans he has to reform higher

:02:47. > :02:49.education fees and loans so that the system works for students, all

:02:50. > :02:56.universities and also for the country? -- could I ask the Prime

:02:57. > :02:59.Minister. We are going to expand the number of people going to higher

:03:00. > :03:05.education by taking off the cap who can attend. Our plans are clearly

:03:06. > :03:10.set out and what I say to the house is it is encouraging that it has not

:03:11. > :03:17.put off people from going to university, nor has it but of people

:03:18. > :03:24.from low-income backgrounds. Someone said in June, 2010, this. A graduate

:03:25. > :03:28.tax would replace upfront tuition fees. I will consult widely before

:03:29. > :03:33.publishing detailed plans later this year. That was the Leader of the

:03:34. > :03:42.Opposition in June, 2010. I know we are dealing with a blank page and an

:03:43. > :03:45.empty head, but get on with it. Would the Prime Minister agree it is

:03:46. > :03:50.the skills enterprise and sheer hard work of all of the staff at

:03:51. > :03:55.companies in conjunction with the long-term economic plan that is

:03:56. > :03:59.driving the economy forward? A company has created 200 full-time

:04:00. > :04:08.jobs last year and another 75 this year and it has exported naan bread

:04:09. > :04:14.to India. It makes Dunstable B Crump at capital of the UK. Very good. I

:04:15. > :04:24.am delighted Dunstable is taking on the label. -- it makes Dunstable the

:04:25. > :04:29.crumpet capital of the UK. We have got the employment allowance

:04:30. > :04:34.to make small businesses stronger. We have 3 million people who will

:04:35. > :04:38.have been taken out of income tax altogether. That is what is

:04:39. > :04:42.happening. Our economy is getting stronger and everyone can see

:04:43. > :05:04.Labour's arguments are getting weaker all of the time. Order.

:05:05. > :05:09.The clash was entirely over the post office between the two

:05:10. > :05:14.frontbenchers, and whether the privatisation of it, was it right in

:05:15. > :05:18.principle but, more important for Mr Miliband at the moment, was it done

:05:19. > :05:22.in a way that maximises benefits to the taxpayers, as opposed to a

:05:23. > :05:29.handful of people in the city? I want to come straight to David

:05:30. > :05:34.Willetts. Is the Prime Minister sure that privatisation was in the 2010

:05:35. > :05:39.Labour manifesto? I don't know exactly which manifested it was in,

:05:40. > :05:44.but we know that labour for years wanted to do this. Peter Mandelson

:05:45. > :05:49.famously worked very hard... Let me tell you what the 2005 Labour

:05:50. > :05:54.manifesto said. We have given Royal Mail greater commercial freedom and

:05:55. > :06:00.have no plans to privatise it. So we accept it wasn't in that manifesto.

:06:01. > :06:04.Labour wanted to do this. Though, the Prime Minister said it was in

:06:05. > :06:10.the Labour manifesto. He then said the 2010, we have agreed it was not

:06:11. > :06:14.in the 2005 manifesto. In 2010 manifesto Labour said, Royal Mail

:06:15. > :06:17.and its staff are taking welcome steps to modernise working practices

:06:18. > :06:21.for the future, continuing modernisation and investment will be

:06:22. > :06:26.needed by Royal Mail in the public sector. I say again, in the public

:06:27. > :06:31.sector. That's the only reference to the Royal Mail in the 2010

:06:32. > :06:35.manifesto. Can we accept that privatisation was not in the

:06:36. > :06:39.manifesto? What happened was Labour wanted to do it and then, because of

:06:40. > :06:44.the pressure from the union supporters, they weren't able to do

:06:45. > :06:47.it. If you look at the debate, which was well reported at the time, you

:06:48. > :06:51.will find prominent Labour ministers, I certainly remember

:06:52. > :06:56.Peter Mandelson, saying they wished to do it. That may be the case but

:06:57. > :06:58.that's not what I'm asking you. Can we accept that when the Prime

:06:59. > :07:07.Minister said it was in the Labour manifesto, it was not. I will have

:07:08. > :07:11.to go and check. We've just giving you the evidence. What the Prime

:07:12. > :07:16.Minister is correctly remembering is Labour wanted to do it and went able

:07:17. > :07:21.to do it, partly because of the trade unions. All parties have been

:07:22. > :07:24.wrestling for years... Lots of MPs, including myself, said don't

:07:25. > :07:29.privatise the Royal Mail. He finally listened. We changed his mind. We

:07:30. > :07:38.had a debate within the Labour Party. We had it behind closed

:07:39. > :07:43.doors. There was a massive Labour rebellion! He was the Business

:07:44. > :07:47.Secretary at the time. But he also has to listen to Labour MPs. We told

:07:48. > :07:52.him it was the wrong thing to do. What he had to do is bailout the

:07:53. > :07:55.pension fund, that was his obligation. Frankly, it was better

:07:56. > :08:01.to have a publicly owned and the public wanted it, too. I think we've

:08:02. > :08:04.established there was no clear commitment to privatisation in

:08:05. > :08:13.either of the two manifestos. However, the use of the word

:08:14. > :08:14.investment in the 2010 manifesto was widely taken, including by Peter

:08:15. > :08:17.Mandelson, to mean part privatisation. Peter Mandelson

:08:18. > :08:22.himself said that Royal Mail part privatisation, quote, is the only

:08:23. > :08:26.credible option. So that is where the word investment was meant. It's

:08:27. > :08:30.not an explicit commitment in the 2010 manifesto, but the use of the

:08:31. > :08:36.word investment was what Peter Mandelson meant by part

:08:37. > :08:40.privatisation. By 2010, Peter Mandelson had not as much influence

:08:41. > :08:43.as he had before. There was a new generation taking over the Labour

:08:44. > :08:48.Party. We were against the idea of Royal Mail being privatised. We have

:08:49. > :08:52.had clear opposition to the privatisation of Royal Mail. The

:08:53. > :08:57.Government was wrong to privatise it. The underlying issue is how you

:08:58. > :09:02.deliver a -- and efficient service with six-day delivery with proper

:09:03. > :09:06.access to investment. The issue was how you have a high-quality Royal

:09:07. > :09:09.Mail, and I think we are achieving that. Let me ask you a question

:09:10. > :09:14.which the Prime Minister was asked twice and didn't answer on either

:09:15. > :09:18.occasion. There were about 16 investors who were actually given

:09:19. > :09:26.preferential positioning on buying of the shares, on the basis that

:09:27. > :09:33.they would hold onto the shares. And yet 50% of them sold very quickly.

:09:34. > :09:38.What happened to that agreement? I don't know what this so called

:09:39. > :09:41.gentleman 's agreement is. It is in the report that came out this week.

:09:42. > :09:45.They were given preferential position on the privatisation on the

:09:46. > :09:50.understanding they would hold onto the shares. In fact, they quickly

:09:51. > :09:54.moved and sold at a profit. We will be considering the report and

:09:55. > :09:57.replying to it. The report makes clear that looking back now is

:09:58. > :10:01.different from the decision to have to take at the time. At the time

:10:02. > :10:06.there was risk, which the report recognises, if we'd gone too high a

:10:07. > :10:12.price, the sale could have collapsed. Can I tell you what the

:10:13. > :10:17.report... You had an agreement in advance... Can I tell you what the

:10:18. > :10:20.report says? 16 of the 17 priority investors bought shares and were

:10:21. > :10:27.allocated larger proportions of their other investor, other orders

:10:28. > :10:31.than other investors, reflecting the department's expectation that they

:10:32. > :10:36.would form part of a stable, long-term and supportive shareholder

:10:37. > :10:43.base. Almost half of the shares allocated to them on a preferred

:10:44. > :10:47.bases had been sold within weeks. We will consider that as part of our

:10:48. > :10:55.consideration. I don't know what happened. Will you also be looking

:10:56. > :10:59.at the undervaluation of the land? Mount Pleasant is a huge development

:11:00. > :11:03.site in the middle of my constituency. The valuation of it

:11:04. > :11:08.was the equivalent of two buttons and an acorn. They valued it on the

:11:09. > :11:12.basis of being a car park. The public have been ripped off. What

:11:13. > :11:16.the public are going to get is a better quality service, the

:11:17. > :11:20.employees are going to be owning shares for the first time and the

:11:21. > :11:29.Royal Mail is now functioning. The long-term problem, a company

:11:30. > :11:32.threatened by overseas competition and put quality service, we are

:11:33. > :11:37.addressing that. A lot of people will remember that exchange. I did

:11:38. > :11:41.think the thing that might last from that exchange was that question

:11:42. > :11:48.about the so called gentleman's agreement. What Ed Miliband referred

:11:49. > :11:52.to as the mate's rates. We know what the power of this is for Labour, and

:11:53. > :11:58.it is a very powerful critique to make. They want to add it to the

:11:59. > :12:02.other criticisms they've got. That when the Government has a choice, it

:12:03. > :12:05.helps its chums in the city and doesn't help ordinary folk. My sense

:12:06. > :12:09.is this debate will go quite a long way, because it's pretty easy, and I

:12:10. > :12:13.don't mean this in a patronising way, but it's pretty easy to

:12:14. > :12:17.understand. Big city institution, got a lot of money, the posties who

:12:18. > :12:21.did get their shares can't sell them for three years and people are left

:12:22. > :12:27.asking, why was it done that way and did it need to be? David Willetts'

:12:28. > :12:31.answer is a revealing one. Governments had repeatedly tried to

:12:32. > :12:34.get this off their hands. It wasn't just Peter Mandelson, although Emily

:12:35. > :12:38.tries to dismiss him, it was effectively deputy priming a step

:12:39. > :12:41.under Gordon Brown and he was desperate to get rid of Royal Mail

:12:42. > :12:44.because he thought it was a liability. Michael Heseltine had to

:12:45. > :12:48.abandon a project to get rid of Royal Mail under John Major's

:12:49. > :12:52.government. There is a huge resistance to selling off Royal Mail

:12:53. > :12:55.but there is a consensus that the top of British politics, it's broken

:12:56. > :12:59.now but there's a consensus it was the right thing to get it in the

:13:00. > :13:05.private sector and get all that debt of government. Yellow you say get

:13:06. > :13:11.rid of. The agenda, and to be fair to Peter Mandelson, was habit as a

:13:12. > :13:15.stronger entity. There's going to be international competition, we want a

:13:16. > :13:21.better functioning Royal Mail. But you did it in a way that a lot of

:13:22. > :13:25.people, some of them we will find out have potentially been donating

:13:26. > :13:31.money to your party, a lot of people made millions of pounds by flipping

:13:32. > :13:36.these shares, having told you they weren't going to flip them. We will

:13:37. > :13:43.have to see what has happened there. We will be responding to the report.

:13:44. > :13:49.What do the viewers make of it? It was all about Royal Mail. Lead on

:13:50. > :13:54.Royal Mail, giveaway at PMQs and the PM couldn't defend the mass loss to

:13:55. > :13:59.the taxpayer. Some people were upset by the use of Muppets. They said it

:14:00. > :14:05.was rude and unnecessary. Dunces as well. An agreement, camera and

:14:06. > :14:09.avoiding real questions and the boys -- resorting to jokes. But there

:14:10. > :14:13.were quite a few who thought Ed Miliband didn't nail it, despite

:14:14. > :14:17.having an open goal. Paul Burke said, unfortunately Ed Miliband

:14:18. > :14:21.looks and sounds like an academic playing student politics. His choice

:14:22. > :14:28.of questions about sale price rather than its ability to provide good

:14:29. > :14:31.service only goes his inability. No question Vince cable, the Business

:14:32. > :14:35.Secretary who was involved and that the head of this deal, was better

:14:36. > :14:43.shouting from the sideline band playing centre forward. I think this

:14:44. > :14:47.will help Ed Miliband because he's been under pressure from some in his

:14:48. > :14:51.own party to reveal policy. Hold your nerve on this cost of living

:14:52. > :14:56.agenda, hold your nerve because it's getting support. He will think this

:14:57. > :15:01.team is working just fine, hold off of that desire to unveil more. We

:15:02. > :15:08.are really interested in PMQs today, and we don't always say that!

:15:09. > :15:12.These days many of us are used to paying for the TV we watch, whether

:15:13. > :15:15.it's for platforms like Sky or Virgin Media, or to download films

:15:16. > :15:19.and box sets over the internet. But the BBC is different. It's still

:15:20. > :15:22.largely funded by the licence fee which has been around in one form or

:15:23. > :15:26.another for 90 years. The broadcaster Nick Ross thinks it's

:15:27. > :15:30.time to think again about how we pay for shows like this one. We'll speak

:15:31. > :15:33.to him in a moment, but first, he's been to our HQ, Broadcasting House.

:15:34. > :15:48.Some of you might be familiar with from the BBC comedy W1A.

:15:49. > :15:57.I am the new head of values for the BBC. Well, not really. If you have

:15:58. > :16:00.seen the satirical series that lampoons the BBC, nothing would

:16:01. > :16:08.surprise you about who was head of what.

:16:09. > :16:16.If you have not seen it, believe me, it cuts pretty close to the bone.

:16:17. > :16:21.But if you were head of values for the BBC, what sort of vision would

:16:22. > :16:25.you want this place to have? It is a cultural triumph, one of the few

:16:26. > :16:30.British institutions that still carries great weight across the

:16:31. > :16:35.world. But it is so limited in its vision come so afraid that culture

:16:36. > :16:44.and competition cannot coexist. -- in its vision, so afraid. Time now

:16:45. > :16:52.for the shipping forecast. This is one of the corridors of power, in

:16:53. > :16:56.fact, it is the corridor of power. The Director General is surrounded

:16:57. > :17:00.by advisers clinging to a security blanket, the licensee. They are

:17:01. > :17:05.terrified that if we in Britain are given choice, we will not want the

:17:06. > :17:12.BBC. But I think they'd usually underestimate the talent here. --

:17:13. > :17:20.they are hugely underestimating the talent. Risk aversion is driving the

:17:21. > :17:25.BBC into a dead-end. The licence fee when it comes up for renewal in two

:17:26. > :17:32.years time will be 90 years old. As every year goes by, it becomes more

:17:33. > :17:35.and more an acoustic -- and anachronistic. When people get

:17:36. > :17:40.content through computers, telephones, the TV licence is

:17:41. > :17:45.increasingly archaic. It will become redundant just as the radio licence

:17:46. > :17:49.did in 1971. More importantly, when the world's content industry is

:17:50. > :17:57.building, films, internet, radio, TV, the BBC cannot grow. It is

:17:58. > :18:01.trapped. Replacing this poll tax with subscription would liberate the

:18:02. > :18:06.BBC. I believe it would get an almost universal intake and increase

:18:07. > :18:13.the money going into the BBC. It would unleash its talents. In any

:18:14. > :18:16.case, the licence fee risks public and political fatigue. If that

:18:17. > :18:22.happens, if the BBC income stagnates or is cut, that would not be satire,

:18:23. > :18:27.it would be tragic. And it would be hard to forgive those who lead us

:18:28. > :18:31.down the path. Nick Ross joins us now. The BBC has

:18:32. > :18:39.said a subscription service would turn the BBC into a commercial

:18:40. > :18:45.profit driven enterprise. Is that what you want? That is what it is. I

:18:46. > :18:49.want to be honest. I have worked for the BBC for a long time. I have no

:18:50. > :18:55.vested interests. I have always been freelance. At the moment, the BBC

:18:56. > :18:59.desperately needs to prove it gets a very big audience, just like a

:19:00. > :19:04.commercial channel does. It needs to get the licence fee renewed. The

:19:05. > :19:10.pressures, we are not honest about them. If we were honest, my view is

:19:11. > :19:15.we could get more revenue freely without sending people to prison or

:19:16. > :19:20.court because they do not pay their licence fee. What level would you

:19:21. > :19:26.want it set at? At a level that people want to play Bollettieri. I

:19:27. > :19:30.was with a senior person from the BBC a few days ago who told me they

:19:31. > :19:36.have done surveys which said that 20% of people would not want to pay

:19:37. > :19:48.?12 a month which is what it cost at the moment -- people want to play

:19:49. > :19:53.ball and her. I ask people how much they would pay to watch Sherlock.

:19:54. > :19:57.Most people would pay ?12 just for that. There is a huge untapped

:19:58. > :20:05.amount of cash coming into this industry. In five, ten years, net

:20:06. > :20:12.flicks has gone to a $3 billion a year industry. The BBC is convinced

:20:13. > :20:16.it would lose money on the evidence and the polls they have done, people

:20:17. > :20:21.would not pay if they were not forced to. The people commissioning

:20:22. > :20:24.this research will cling to the licence fee. They are cherry picking

:20:25. > :20:30.evidence and looking for the evidence which sustains their own

:20:31. > :20:36.view. If Rupert Murdoch had listened to these people, he would never have

:20:37. > :20:41.got people paying an average of ?550 per household for Sky. I understand

:20:42. > :20:48.where they are coming from. They are frightened and timid and they do not

:20:49. > :20:59.want the BBC to be challenged. The BBC licence fee, ?145, divided it up

:21:00. > :21:05.by month. If the people are asked to pay ?30 per month, it would be

:21:06. > :21:15.unaffordable for a lot of people who can afford ?145 a year. It would be

:21:16. > :21:22.voluntary. Secondly, remember the cruel joke when Sky started. What

:21:23. > :21:25.are those square things attacked to the satellite dishes? The answer

:21:26. > :21:30.was, they are council homes. Generally it is poorer people who

:21:31. > :21:35.cannot afford to go out, they are prepared to invest much more in what

:21:36. > :21:40.they get at home. I do not think you will find it a problem. The uptake

:21:41. > :21:45.will be enormous. If the BBC does good programming, that is what it is

:21:46. > :21:48.about. There is a public service remit. Doing programmes which some

:21:49. > :21:53.people might not think of good but others feel should be out there. The

:21:54. > :21:58.BBC claims they are the only ones who do that. Even in the most

:21:59. > :22:03.preposterous sense of self-importance, the BBC does not

:22:04. > :22:08.say that. It knows that Channel 4, Sky, they do a lot of good public

:22:09. > :22:11.service programming. It also knows the BBC does a lot of stuff that

:22:12. > :22:19.would flourish on the commercial market. What do you think about the

:22:20. > :22:23.future funding model? This is an issue that will be debated as we

:22:24. > :22:28.head into future charter renewal is. I like the fact it is universal. I

:22:29. > :22:34.like the arrangement which ensures people are sharing in something and

:22:35. > :22:39.that the fee, and there has been a lot of debate in the Commons about

:22:40. > :22:42.the criminality of it, the fee is a lot less than some of the commercial

:22:43. > :22:52.options. Niqabs two ex plain white we can do it -- Nick has to explain

:22:53. > :22:57.that. Would you be prepared to set the licence fee so ago September

:22:58. > :23:01.sent per annum for the next ten year charter renewal? If not, the BBC

:23:02. > :23:05.will be progressively eclipsed compared to whatever else goes on in

:23:06. > :23:10.Britain. If you are wrong about the amount of money, which services

:23:11. > :23:15.would you cut? I would cut the ones I could not sustain. Some things the

:23:16. > :23:24.government would as now subsidised, just as it subsidises over 75s. I am

:23:25. > :23:29.not trying to privatise it. It would have the same public service

:23:30. > :23:38.principles now but with more income. Would you have advertising?

:23:39. > :23:42.Absolutely not. It would ruin it. The way advertising works is getting

:23:43. > :23:53.very much out of date. Kids scroll through them. Thank you very much.

:23:54. > :23:56.Now, as you know BBC Two is home to all the big shows that shape the

:23:57. > :23:59.political debate. The Daily Politics. Cash in the Attic. And

:24:00. > :24:02.tonight it's hosting round two of Nigel Farage versus Nick Clegg, as

:24:03. > :24:06.they debate whether Britain should continue to be a member of the EU.

:24:07. > :24:09.In a moment, we'll talk to David Dimbleby, he's chairing tonight's

:24:10. > :24:13.showdown. But first, let's remind you how the BBC used to do this sort

:24:14. > :24:23.of thing the last time Britain was talking about a referendum on

:24:24. > :24:27.Europe, back in 1975. Tonight for the first time in this referendum

:24:28. > :24:31.campaign, Labour Minister meets Labour Minister to discuss the

:24:32. > :24:35.arguments for and against Britain's continued membership of the common

:24:36. > :24:39.market. Roy Jenkins, long-time supporter of British membership and

:24:40. > :24:42.president of the campaign. Tony Benn, Secretary of State for

:24:43. > :24:47.industry, the man who fought for the referendum and one of the leading

:24:48. > :24:50.opponents to the common market. And here is David Dimbleby, almost 40

:24:51. > :24:58.years on, but not looking a day older. Stop flattering me. The drugs

:24:59. > :25:02.have worked. He is outside Broadcasting House where the debate

:25:03. > :25:10.is taking place this evening. We'll be debate... How will it differ to

:25:11. > :25:14.last week but at the first round of the debate is a kind of sparring

:25:15. > :25:20.match work Nick Clegg on Nigel Farage sort out each other's

:25:21. > :25:24.weaknesses. I imagine tonight they will want to deliver knockout

:25:25. > :25:29.punches, in effect. One of them will want to have the other on the floor

:25:30. > :25:33.by the end of the hour. Am I right in thinking fewer questions this

:25:34. > :25:37.time compared to last week so that they can debate among themselves?

:25:38. > :25:43.Well, it is always a difficult balance. We will put in enough

:25:44. > :25:47.questions to make sure the subject is properly covered. We will have

:25:48. > :25:52.some up our sleeve in case some do not go well. The job is to get the

:25:53. > :25:58.two of them arguing. Half a dozen questions, eight, I don't know. Have

:25:59. > :26:02.you heard anything on the grapevine about how they are prepping? Nothing

:26:03. > :26:09.at all. They have both been doorstep. They are doing what

:26:10. > :26:15.Muhammad Ali used to do. I tell you one thing. I read through the

:26:16. > :26:22.transcript of the Roy Jenkins and Tony Benn one we did. The topics are

:26:23. > :26:26.that clearly same. It is fascinating. It is all about

:26:27. > :26:31.democracy, control, constitutional control on the one hand and jobs at

:26:32. > :26:36.the other. They go at that for 50 minutes. Brilliant to watch will

:26:37. > :26:42.stop as I hope and think tonight will be. I am sure it will. We will

:26:43. > :26:48.be watching. Thank you. Are you going to be watching tonight? Yes.

:26:49. > :26:53.Do you wish your man was in their as well? Our option which is

:26:54. > :26:57.negotiating a better deal and put into a referendum is not what either

:26:58. > :27:03.of the parties debating this evening will be offering the electorate.

:27:04. > :27:07.That is what the electorate want. You should have done the debate. Is

:27:08. > :27:16.it good for Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage? Except I do not think people

:27:17. > :27:22.are terribly interested. I am sorry. Good audience on Sky last time. What

:27:23. > :27:29.do you mean by that? The amount of people who watch this programme

:27:30. > :27:36.tonight. -- this programme perhaps. It got more! I think Sky got almost

:27:37. > :27:44.ten times its normal audience. Not bad. That does not include LBC. Lots

:27:45. > :27:51.of offices have the television on. I cannot believe you would say a thing

:27:52. > :28:00.like that! You have the two extremes of the debate. Mr Clegg, extreme? We

:28:01. > :28:03.are going to give you a final reminder that you can watch the

:28:04. > :28:15.debate live on BBC Two at 7pm tonight. All you can set your video

:28:16. > :28:25.recorder! -- or you can set. It will be on iPlayer also. We will give you

:28:26. > :28:28.the answer to the Guess The Year. The clue was Edwina Currie's trouble

:28:29. > :28:44.with eggs, so it must have been 1988. Hit that button. Find out who

:28:45. > :28:49.has won. There we go. That is it. We thank our special guests. The new

:28:50. > :28:54.starting on BBC One. We will be back tomorrow and new. Goodbye. -- at

:28:55. > :28:56.noon.