:00:36. > :00:38.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. MPs return to the
:00:39. > :00:41.Commons today, fresh from their Easter break. Just as well, as a
:00:42. > :00:46.whole host of elections lie before them, local and European, and they
:00:47. > :00:53.will need every ounce of energy campaigning on the stump.
:00:54. > :00:56.UKIP's had a bad week in the press. Some say the party's a "nastier
:00:57. > :01:00.piece of work". That is not reflected in the polls. They are
:01:01. > :01:06.Will MPs derail High Speed 2? Parliament debates the project
:01:07. > :01:09.today. The Government insists it will bring "regeneration on a grand
:01:10. > :01:26.We are Englishmen and not common market stuff.
:01:27. > :01:29.And politicians have been making a song and dance about Europe since
:01:30. > :01:32.the advent of technicolour. We will be bringing you the highlights.
:01:33. > :01:36.All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, the Daily
:01:37. > :01:40.Politics' answer to The Three Musketeers: the Conservative MP,
:01:41. > :01:44.Cheryl Gillan, Labour's Tessa Jowell and the former Liberal Democrat
:01:45. > :01:49.leader, Ming Campbell. Welcome to you all. Now, without further ado,
:01:50. > :01:53.let's start with those looming elections, coming up next month.
:01:54. > :01:58.Here is the lowdown on what is at stake. On 22 May, there will be
:01:59. > :02:04.elections for local councils as well as European Parliament elections.
:02:05. > :02:09.All 32 London boroughs, 36 metropolitan boroughs, 74 district
:02:10. > :02:15.councils and 19 unitary authorities in England will be elected. There
:02:16. > :02:20.will also be shadow council elections in Northern Ireland for
:02:21. > :02:23.new super councils. There are also five mayoral elections in Hackney,
:02:24. > :02:28.Lewisham, Newham, Tower Hamlets and Watford. Results will be known from
:02:29. > :02:34.Thursday evening and into Friday. For the European elections, all 751
:02:35. > :02:40.members of the European Parliament will be elected across Europe. These
:02:41. > :02:44.elections take place every five years. 73 MEPs will be elected by
:02:45. > :02:49.people living in the UK. For the European elections, most of the
:02:50. > :02:54.results will not be announced until Sunday, 25 May, after voting has
:02:55. > :03:00.closed throughout the 28 member states of the EU. We are joined now
:03:01. > :03:14.Welcome back to the programme. Let's start with UKIP. They have dominated
:03:15. > :03:19.the news ahead of the elections, and not for all the right reasons. Let's
:03:20. > :03:21.pick up on one of your local election candidates, who said the
:03:22. > :03:25.actor and comedian Lenny Henry should emigrate to a black company.
:03:26. > :03:29.Is that acceptable? No, it is not, and we as a party or a non-racist,
:03:30. > :03:37.nonsectarian party. We expected our members to uphold
:03:38. > :03:39.those values. Where things were brought to our attention that those
:03:40. > :03:44.values were not upheld, we examine it and take a decision. And it is
:03:45. > :03:48.often to expel or suspend party members. I will not have the
:03:49. > :03:53.impression in the media that this sums up who UKIP are. I have been
:03:54. > :03:57.around the country, particularly the Eastern counties in recent weeks and
:03:58. > :04:02.months, and the people I meet who are UKIP members and supporters are
:04:03. > :04:04.superb people who care about their communities, their families and
:04:05. > :04:09.their nation. So what will happen to him? We have a disciplinary process
:04:10. > :04:14.that has been swift compared to some of the others. But any party could
:04:15. > :04:17.be examined to the degree of scrutiny we are under, which I do
:04:18. > :04:23.not complain about, and horrible things would come to light. Were you
:04:24. > :04:27.shocked by the statement? We have more than 2000 people standing in
:04:28. > :04:29.the local elections. It does not particularly shock me that some of
:04:30. > :04:38.those will have said unpleasant things on social media, because UKIP
:04:39. > :04:42.have a big dossier of elected councillors from the other parties
:04:43. > :04:46.have said. At some point, it will be adjusting to see if the media is as
:04:47. > :04:51.interested in those. Equally, as you say, you have to accept the scrutiny
:04:52. > :04:56.if you are going to get that much of a profile. You will get equal
:04:57. > :05:01.amounts of scrutiny. But it is not equal, it is much more. We will come
:05:02. > :05:05.to that in a second. Will he still be a candidate? We have disciplinary
:05:06. > :05:10.processes in place. I am not going to prejudice that by coming onto
:05:11. > :05:14.television and talking about one particular case. My job as
:05:15. > :05:19.communications director for UKIP is to keep the big ideas advancing in
:05:20. > :05:24.the campaign. When will we know what will happen to him? As you say, it
:05:25. > :05:27.is not acceptable for one of your candidates to say that. How quickly
:05:28. > :05:33.will we know what will happen to him? If you say it is unacceptable,
:05:34. > :05:40.it seems that he cannot stand. We have rules for standing at local
:05:41. > :05:43.elections which make it all but impossible not to throw people off
:05:44. > :05:49.ballot papers. But we deal with incidents swiftly and the police,
:05:50. > :05:52.and we are anxious to uphold our reputation as a non-racist,
:05:53. > :05:57.nonsectarian party. Let's ask the other panel members. Is the party
:05:58. > :06:01.racist, Ming Campbell? I am sure it isn't. On the other hand, it appears
:06:02. > :06:03.to have attracted a number of supporters and candidates who
:06:04. > :06:08.demonstrate attitudes which I frankly find very uncomfortable
:06:09. > :06:13.indeed. But do you accept that all the parties will have characters who
:06:14. > :06:16.say those sorts of things? Not necessarily those sorts of things.
:06:17. > :06:20.All the parties have candidates who sometimes they things the leadership
:06:21. > :06:25.would prefer they did not say. But the point about UKIP is that it is
:06:26. > :06:29.riding high in the polls at the moment. It offers it self, through
:06:30. > :06:35.Mr Farage, a kind of Teflon leader. The problem with Teflon is that
:06:36. > :06:38.eventually, it wears out. If you have a series of allegations of the
:06:39. > :06:42.kind we have seen over the last few days, there can hardly be complaints
:06:43. > :06:46.about the fact that the scrutiny is now rising. As I have said on this
:06:47. > :06:49.programme before when talking about UKIP, welcome to test match cricket.
:06:50. > :06:55.This is a serious business. It is not a joke or a protest, it is
:06:56. > :06:58.serious and you must expect serious scrutiny. What about the posters,
:06:59. > :07:05.Tessa Jowell? Hard-hitting posters that were launched with donations
:07:06. > :07:09.saying that the British workers are hit by foreign labour. With a good
:07:10. > :07:13.posters or were they racist? The message of those posters was
:07:14. > :07:21.perfectly clear, that foreigners are putting your jobs at risk. I thought
:07:22. > :07:29.they were extremely unpleasant. Incidentally, on that candidate's
:07:30. > :07:33.comments, Lenny Henry's tweet was the best last word. He said, I come
:07:34. > :07:39.from the Black Country, I come from Dudley! Which is a glorious rebuttal
:07:40. > :07:46.of the kind of decency of him, and the decent country that all of us,
:07:47. > :07:50.in different ways, try to serve. If I can jump back in, on Ming
:07:51. > :07:55.Campbell's point, there is a Liberal Democrat councillor who we are
:07:56. > :07:59.making famous within UKIP. He was convicted of racially aggravated
:08:00. > :08:03.assault. That is not someone saying something intolerable or unpleasant,
:08:04. > :08:08.but is somebody doing something unpleasant. I would say to Tessa
:08:09. > :08:11.Jowell that the front of the Times today shows that we are speaking to
:08:12. > :08:17.a large number of people who would have once voted Labour. I don't know
:08:18. > :08:22.about a particular case, but if somebody was prosecuted, then that
:08:23. > :08:30.is a proper exercise of the judicial system. I would be satisfied that
:08:31. > :08:33.everyone in UKIP with opinions of that kind will be dealt with in the
:08:34. > :08:37.same way. The difference with UKIP now is that it is purporting, and
:08:38. > :08:41.the opinion poll support this, to be a party which will do very well in
:08:42. > :08:45.the European elections. On that basis, there is no room for
:08:46. > :08:52.complacency about some of the people who have been attracted to support
:08:53. > :08:54.you. On that point, the Conservatives particularly, never
:08:55. > :09:02.mind the bad publicity in some of the papers, they are still riding
:09:03. > :09:06.high in the polls. Why? I think they are a party which appears to me to
:09:07. > :09:10.always preach hatred, down to the lowest common denominator. It is
:09:11. > :09:13.very easy to whip up a dislike about groups of people or types of people
:09:14. > :09:19.from other countries, and that appears to be the message from
:09:20. > :09:22.UKIP. The sad thing is that many of the people who are currently
:09:23. > :09:25.thinking about voting UKIP are actually good and decent people. I
:09:26. > :09:28.have always maintained that if they took a closer look at UKIP and their
:09:29. > :09:36.policies, they would not like what they see. I would much rather fight
:09:37. > :09:40.elections, Patrick, and I am sure Tessa and Ming Campbell would as
:09:41. > :09:44.well, on positive messages. We have differences between our parties. We
:09:45. > :09:47.are long-standing parties with long-standing differences, but the
:09:48. > :09:52.differences I would sit down with Tessa and Ming Campbell on would be
:09:53. > :09:57.on policies where we agree to push a positive agenda. Let's look at
:09:58. > :10:02.immigration. Nigel Farage talks about quality and quantity. That
:10:03. > :10:05.seems to be the basis of that poster campaign, and yet he was asked by
:10:06. > :10:10.one of my colleagues about the fact that he employs his German wife as
:10:11. > :10:13.secretary. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Isn't that
:10:14. > :10:17.the sort of thing we are getting, UKIP saying one thing, that
:10:18. > :10:21.representatives from other parties, the voters do not trust them and
:10:22. > :10:26.they are not transparent, and yet here we have UKIP saying one thing
:10:27. > :10:30.and doing something different 's seeing as you raise it, I thought
:10:31. > :10:36.that was an extraordinary way for the BBC political editor, during the
:10:37. > :10:41.launch of a major party's election campaign. But you take the point.
:10:42. > :10:47.There was another example of using one of the party's assistance, and
:10:48. > :10:51.trying to portray her as an ordinary citizen when she works for the
:10:52. > :10:57.party. Not to mention the Irish immigrant... Every party uses actors
:10:58. > :11:02.in their election communications. You said UKIP would be different. We
:11:03. > :11:05.are different, because we are offering the British people and
:11:06. > :11:09.immigration policy which controls immigration and were not give an
:11:10. > :11:14.open door to more than two dozen neighbouring countries. Then what is
:11:15. > :11:18.a quality immigrant? Someone who has skills, investment, can create
:11:19. > :11:23.employment and subscribe to British values. At the moment, we have a New
:11:24. > :11:27.Zealand brain surgeon or an Indian engineer who will struggle to get
:11:28. > :11:31.into Britain, while a down and out from Eastern Europe has carte
:11:32. > :11:35.blanche to come. But all the other parties are saying we need to
:11:36. > :11:41.control immigration as well. But they can't, within the EU. We are
:11:42. > :11:50.members of the European Union. We have open borders, as do our other
:11:51. > :11:53.European partners. It is a two-way flow. Almost as many people leave
:11:54. > :12:00.the UK to go and work in Europe as people come from other parts of
:12:01. > :12:05.Europe to work in the UK. What has happened is that we have seen a lot
:12:06. > :12:11.of peddling of myths that decent people have accepted about the
:12:12. > :12:19.proportional migrants on benefits, feeding this sense that migration
:12:20. > :12:22.takes from the people who have lived here for generation after
:12:23. > :12:26.generation. So why have labour apologised for the immigration
:12:27. > :12:36.policies when they were in power? Well, I don't actually think an
:12:37. > :12:43.apology was necessary. I mean, what Ed Miliband has said is that had we
:12:44. > :12:46.known now what we knew then, the numbers, although we proceeded with
:12:47. > :12:54.care in trying to predict how many would come, the numbers went astray.
:12:55. > :12:58.Now, we would have put in place transitional controls. Do you think
:12:59. > :13:03.UKIP's take on the Liberal Democrats' position as a protest
:13:04. > :13:07.party makes things difficult for you? I am sorry we did not get onto
:13:08. > :13:15.UKIP politics. They are against Same Sex Marriage Bill they are for
:13:16. > :13:19.bankers' bonuses. It is that is their substance... Then why are they
:13:20. > :13:25.doing well in the polls? Because they are novel. As the Liberal
:13:26. > :13:28.Democrats used to be! Mr Farage purports to be a non-establishment
:13:29. > :13:31.figure when he went to a public school and worked in the City and
:13:32. > :13:37.looks like someone straight out of country life. So far, he has got
:13:38. > :13:43.away with it. But this is serious business. You must expect serious
:13:44. > :13:47.scrutiny. The real flaw with UKIP is that it is a one-man party. Nobody
:13:48. > :13:56.can name anybody else in the party, other than for really bad stories.
:13:57. > :14:00.There is a huge weakness there. It is dog whistle politics. We will see
:14:01. > :14:04.when the results come. Now it's time for our daily quiz.
:14:05. > :14:07.Today, it's about Nick Clegg's shelflife. The Lib Dem leader was
:14:08. > :14:11.speaking to one Sunday newspaper magazine yesterday about how long he
:14:12. > :14:14.wants to serve as Deputy Prime Minister. So how long does he think
:14:15. > :14:43.he can stay fresh? will no doubt give us the correct
:14:44. > :14:47.answer. I can do it now! It will spoil the choreography of the
:14:48. > :14:52.programme. As you can probably tell from the show so far, we love a good
:14:53. > :14:56.election. We like them in every shape and size. But the big focus in
:14:57. > :14:59.May will be the performance of the parties in the elections to the
:15:00. > :15:02.European Parliament. And because you may have missed most of the parties
:15:03. > :15:12.launching the European campaigns recently, don't worry, we sent Adam
:15:13. > :15:14.to work to bring you up to speed. Everyone is so excited about the
:15:15. > :15:18.European elections that they are actually dancing in the street. They
:15:19. > :15:27.are in this video, designed to get youth interested. The Tories'
:15:28. > :15:30.campaign took first with David Cameron going to Manchester airport
:15:31. > :15:35.to say that only he can reform the youthful. If you want real change in
:15:36. > :15:39.Europe that works for you and for your family that works for your
:15:40. > :15:44.business, then the Conservative Party is the only party that can
:15:45. > :15:49.deliver for you. And eyebrows were raised when we got an e-mail to that
:15:50. > :15:53.effect from Lynton Crosby the party's shadow we election genius
:15:54. > :15:58.from Australia. Talking of geniuses, Labour have hired Barack Obama's
:15:59. > :16:02.former right-hand man, David Axelrod, for a 6-figure sum. Labour
:16:03. > :16:06.Party is at the forefront of dealing with the cost of living crisis. I am
:16:07. > :16:11.not sure if he will be that interested in their campaign for the
:16:12. > :16:16.local elections launching this week. In Sheffield, Nigel Farage unveiled
:16:17. > :16:20.UKIP's campaign, the drink hard-hitting posters claiming that
:16:21. > :16:26.foreigners are stealing our jobs. It went swimmingly until Nigel met
:16:27. > :16:29.Nick. Your wife is German. She is your secretary and she is paid for
:16:30. > :16:33.by the British taxpayer. She came here as a skilled person earning a
:16:34. > :16:40.high salary. It all goes to show that nobody must think we are... Is
:16:41. > :16:43.she taking someone else's job? Body else would want to be in my house at
:16:44. > :16:48.midnight going through e-mails to be briefed for the next day. In Essex,
:16:49. > :16:52.Nick Clegg reminded everyone that the Lib Dems are the party of in.
:16:53. > :16:57.Not in trouble in the polls but emphatically in Europe. Just because
:16:58. > :17:00.Ed Miliband and David Cameron have decided to not talk about the issue
:17:01. > :17:06.that is not going to stop us will stop we think that there is so much
:17:07. > :17:10.at stake. And here is what they are fighting for. 73 seat in the
:17:11. > :17:17.European Parliament, spread over 12 bustard constituencies.
:17:18. > :17:21.-- 12 vats to constituencies. And there is even more to get excited
:17:22. > :17:27.about because there are also elections in England and Northern
:17:28. > :17:31.Ireland. I don't not what they have been
:17:32. > :17:36.taking in that video but I want upbeat. Let's look at the party that
:17:37. > :17:41.have dominated the first discussion. The Tories face coming third in the
:17:42. > :17:43.elections and that would be disastrous. I will make note
:17:44. > :17:51.addictions until we have seen the results. It is very dangerous this
:17:52. > :17:54.far out. -- no predictions. You think the Tories' fortunes could
:17:55. > :18:01.change? I think the message, if we build on it, we are after all the
:18:02. > :18:04.only party that is offering a referendum on our relationship with
:18:05. > :18:10.Europe. How is the renegotiation going? It has been making strides.
:18:11. > :18:13.Where? There is no doubt about it, with Angela Merkel and the
:18:14. > :18:17.Netherlands, both countries that accept that there needs to be a
:18:18. > :18:22.changed relationship, not just for the UK, but between the countries of
:18:23. > :18:26.Europe. You only have to look at what happens to the euro countries.
:18:27. > :18:29.There is an appreciation in Germany that there needs to be a change in
:18:30. > :18:34.the relationship between the countries. The message is clear from
:18:35. > :18:39.the Conservatives. We are the leading party in the coalition, and
:18:40. > :18:43.we are realistically able to offer the country a referendum which
:18:44. > :18:49.cannot come from any other parties. The Lib Dems do not want to. But
:18:50. > :18:54.that is on a renegotiated relationship and you have said that
:18:55. > :18:57.they have made strides. Sure, but have been positive noises from
:18:58. > :19:03.Angela Merkel. Tell me one thing that has been actually achieved in
:19:04. > :19:06.terms of the renegotiation? I think you are setting false barriers for
:19:07. > :19:09.people to leap over. As everybody knows, one of the things you have to
:19:10. > :19:13.do in Europe when you have such a large number of countries involved
:19:14. > :19:19.is negotiate and look at the best shape of Europe for the future. I
:19:20. > :19:24.think there is a growing acceptance amongst many countries, particularly
:19:25. > :19:29.those countries that have come in from the former Soviet Union, that
:19:30. > :19:32.they do not want a European Union. So why are you not doing better in
:19:33. > :19:38.the polls if this is such a strong and clear message? A lot of your MPs
:19:39. > :19:40.do not believe that either. There are many reasons for that. I would
:19:41. > :19:45.agree that the polls are disappointing. I would not be right
:19:46. > :19:48.to sit here and preach that we were going to come third when I think
:19:49. > :19:53.that our message is going out there consistently. What I think we need
:19:54. > :19:57.to do is engage with the electorate because as far as I'm concerned, any
:19:58. > :20:00.people do not even know when the election is going to be and are not
:20:01. > :20:06.even capable of naming the MEP. That is the contradiction. The result
:20:07. > :20:11.this chat about Europe but people do not know the basic points. Should
:20:12. > :20:18.Labour rethink the whole strategy in terms of offering a referendum? No.
:20:19. > :20:23.We have a clear position which basically says that if the treaty
:20:24. > :20:34.changes, we would... But that is the government's position. It is our
:20:35. > :20:37.position. The difference between our position and the government's
:20:38. > :20:41.position is one where we are very clear about the way in which,
:20:42. > :20:47.through negotiation with our European partners, Europe needs to
:20:48. > :20:54.change. For instance, the ECB becoming a growth bank, and new
:20:55. > :21:01.focus on grog creation -- job creation that the single market can
:21:02. > :21:09.bring to the member countries. If you do not hold a referendum, how
:21:10. > :21:12.will you put any pressure on the European partners? Having negotiated
:21:13. > :21:18.a lot in Europe, that is the last way that anybody listens to you. If
:21:19. > :21:23.you go around issuing threats, flying to Berlin or wherever else it
:21:24. > :21:27.would be, and coming home and announcing Europe, basically the
:21:28. > :21:31.other member states will turn their back on you. You have to do it by
:21:32. > :21:37.engaged negotiation. And that is what we will do. If you look at the
:21:38. > :21:40.polls, the Lib Dems looked as if they are going to perform extremely
:21:41. > :21:45.badly. That must be a realistic worry for the party. There is not an
:21:46. > :21:49.violation, but it is pretty derisory. The polls do not look good
:21:50. > :21:52.but as has been pointed out, let's wait until we see the results. Can
:21:53. > :21:59.pick up on the point about Angela Merkel? Tessa is absolutely right.
:22:00. > :22:02.You make progress in Europe by engagement. That is why the fact
:22:03. > :22:04.that the Conservatives withdrew from the Conservative group still rankles
:22:05. > :22:09.among others with Angela Merkel. the Conservative group still rankles
:22:10. > :22:12.among others with When she came to the House of Commons and address to
:22:13. > :22:17.both Houses of Parliament or maybe other day, it was clear that she
:22:18. > :22:21.supports reform but not reform which has the effect of undermining the
:22:22. > :22:29.principles upon which the European Union is based. No treaty change,
:22:30. > :22:32.because it would inevitably legally require... Allow me to finish.
:22:33. > :22:42.Treaty change would require unanimity. And that is a matter
:22:43. > :22:46.where the 28 countries... The indication is that it would not
:22:47. > :22:51.happen. Precisely. You are the party of Ian, clearly and proudly. Why not
:22:52. > :22:55.have a referendum? As we said in the coalition agreement, if there is any
:22:56. > :23:00.transfer of powers from London to Brussels, which affects the
:23:01. > :23:03.constitutional nature of the relationship, the should be a
:23:04. > :23:07.referendum and I'm pleased to see that that is the position adopted by
:23:08. > :23:11.the Labour Party. What about the debates with Nigel Farage? Was it
:23:12. > :23:15.worth while for Nick Clegg? A move to nothing in the polls and he was
:23:16. > :23:18.deemed to have lost. There are several views about that. Let's
:23:19. > :23:23.stick to the purpose of these debates which was to set out that in
:23:24. > :23:27.this extensive debate about Europe, the Liberal Democrats are on about
:23:28. > :23:31.Lee and unashamedly the most pro-European of the parties. Since
:23:32. > :23:37.that was the accusation that was made against us, it was a great deal
:23:38. > :23:41.of political sense to say that of course we these are the reasons why.
:23:42. > :23:45.3 million jobs, the fact that politically the more unity in
:23:46. > :23:49.Europe, against the possibility of reserve and Russia, the better it
:23:50. > :23:54.will be for the United Kingdom. I want to bring your attention to the
:23:55. > :24:00.YouGov Paul. 43% of people said they would vote to stay. -- YouGov poll.
:24:01. > :24:04.36% of people said they would leave. Despite the fact that you may be
:24:05. > :24:09.riding high in the polls, when it comes to the big question, you are
:24:10. > :24:11.losing. We will see on May the 22nd. But on that question, when people
:24:12. > :24:36.are asked specifically, But on that question, when people
:24:37. > :24:36.are many people living there. I think the
:24:37. > :24:36.are many people living there. I pretty much roadkill under the UKIP
:24:37. > :24:42.battle bus already and we for labour because we think that if
:24:43. > :24:48.we could beat Labour, for labour because we think that if
:24:49. > :24:53.proposition that he proposed to fight the general election on, to
:24:54. > :24:58.ask the people to trust him but not the people. The point here is that
:24:59. > :24:58.at home, whether the people. The point here is that
:24:59. > :25:00.people's principal focus is not on the people. The point here is that
:25:01. > :25:03.Europe. People's principal focus is on fear emigration, fairer welfare
:25:04. > :25:10.and the kind of changes that on fear emigration, fairer welfare
:25:11. > :25:10.their children a better chance in the future. The practical thing is
:25:11. > :25:17.that the British people have not the future. The practical thing is
:25:18. > :25:23.a vote on the European Union for 40 years and it has changed a
:25:24. > :25:24.a vote on the European Union for 40 relationship from the Conservative
:25:25. > :25:29.Party. I'm going to leave it there. relationship from the Conservative
:25:30. > :25:34.What is in store. It is back to work for the MPs but it is not just
:25:35. > :25:40.clocking on. The government's help to work scheme just a
:25:41. > :25:45.the long-term unemployed find jobs. Tuesday heralds a copyright when
:25:46. > :25:45.the long-term unemployed find jobs. will continue a debate on the
:25:46. > :25:49.the long-term unemployed find jobs. brings a chance to let off steam
:25:50. > :25:55.with the return of PMQs. Joining us from college green, Jason Groves
:25:56. > :25:59.from the Daily Mail and a representative from the New
:26:00. > :26:04.Statesman. Let's look at the work programme. Is it working? Certainly,
:26:05. > :26:10.fewer people are unemployed than Labour were saying might be a couple
:26:11. > :26:16.of years ago. The labour market appears to be a good news story for
:26:17. > :26:26.the government in headline terms. Labour will say that too many of
:26:27. > :26:26.those people are in insecure work or part-time
:26:27. > :26:31.those people are in insecure work or more jobs. In terms of how much of
:26:32. > :26:31.those people are in insecure work or that is to do with government policy
:26:32. > :26:36.and how much is to do with an uptake in the
:26:37. > :26:46.moot point. But it seems that Number Ten and the Department for Work and
:26:47. > :26:47.Pensions Ten and the Department for Work and
:26:48. > :26:47.they have a good news story to tell on welfare and jobs and they have
:26:48. > :26:55.Labour on the defensive will stop on welfare and jobs and they have
:26:56. > :27:04.think the figures, which showed that the money spent had not produced the
:27:05. > :27:15.think the figures, which showed that that the work programme got off to a
:27:16. > :27:15.great start. that the work programme got off to a
:27:16. > :27:27.sound. The idea of helping more people back into work. Encouraging
:27:28. > :27:27.them to get out and get experience of work, find out
:27:28. > :27:35.them to get out and get experience to see why anybody is against that
:27:36. > :27:35.idea. Let's move on to Cyril Smith. There's been
:27:36. > :27:43.idea. Let's move on to Cyril Smith. much damage to the Liberal
:27:44. > :27:43.Democrats? It is obviously not great when a senior
:27:44. > :27:52.Democrats? It is obviously not great horrendous crimes. They are terrible
:27:53. > :27:52.Democrats? It is obviously not great allegations and it is a small party.
:27:53. > :27:52.The suspicion is that allegations and it is a small party.
:27:53. > :28:01.it. Although I think that the allegations and it is a small party.
:28:02. > :28:01.issue here is going to turn into a question of who
:28:02. > :28:01.issue here is going to turn into a justice system, when the result one
:28:02. > :28:08.big and important. justice system, when the result one
:28:09. > :28:12.generally say to victims, frankly, you have no chance against this big
:28:13. > :28:17.figure, and there's nothing you can do? That is where the
:28:18. > :28:21.figure, and there's nothing you can There is a sense that if the
:28:22. > :28:28.individual is part of the centre of the party, they are immune from
:28:29. > :28:32.things that they should not be immune from. Do you think it is
:28:33. > :28:37.right to pursue these cases because it is what the public would like to
:28:38. > :28:37.CQ magnet is it is what the public would like to
:28:38. > :28:41.and more about the victims. Allegedly, Cyril Smith has a
:28:42. > :28:46.significant number of victims who deserve justice. In terms of the Lib
:28:47. > :28:49.significant number of victims who Dems, Tim Farron has come out and
:28:50. > :28:53.said that they have serious Dems, Tim Farron has come out and
:28:54. > :28:59.questions to answer and I cannot put better than that. They should answer
:29:00. > :29:05.them. Looking at UKIP, while they are riding high in the polls, there
:29:06. > :29:08.is still bad publicity. Any publicity is good publicity for a
:29:09. > :29:10.party positioning themselves as the insurgent against
:29:11. > :29:13.party positioning themselves as the There are specious elements of that
:29:14. > :29:18.party positioning themselves as the goes Nigel Farage is public school
:29:19. > :29:23.educated and a former city trader, so how antiestablishment can he be?
:29:24. > :29:23.That if you are being attacked by the mainstream press and the other
:29:24. > :29:29.parties, the mainstream press and the other
:29:30. > :29:36.save that all the people you despise are against us so by extension, you
:29:37. > :29:36.are on our side. The big question is are against us so by extension, you
:29:37. > :29:40.whether this is coming up in the run-up to a Parliamentary election
:29:41. > :29:40.-- run-up to a Parliamentary election
:29:41. > :29:46.which is traditionally a free hit against the incumbents. Will
:29:47. > :29:51.which is traditionally a free hit Peter out when you come towards the
:29:52. > :29:51.general election next May? For the time being, as long as
:29:52. > :29:56.general election next May? For the noise and light and heat generated
:29:57. > :29:59.around UKIP, that plays to Nigel Farage's advantage. Thank you both.
:30:00. > :30:03.Menzies Campbell, let's talk about the Cyril Smith
:30:04. > :30:09.Menzies Campbell, let's talk about your party. You have been in
:30:10. > :30:09.Menzies Campbell, let's talk about your party. You have party for
:30:10. > :30:13.Menzies Campbell, let's talk about suspicions? I was not. Not until
:30:14. > :30:15.Menzies Campbell, let's talk about allegations and suspicions that have
:30:16. > :30:20.emerged. I think what is clear is that there were a variety of
:30:21. > :30:25.institutions who may or may not, because these are allegations, have
:30:26. > :30:30.played some part. That is why it seems that the only rational
:30:31. > :30:30.played some part. That is why it proceed is to allow the police to
:30:31. > :30:35.continue with their enquiries. You proceed is to allow the police to
:30:36. > :30:41.will be aware that there was a press conference taking place today in
:30:42. > :30:46.which the police have their enquiries are now being
:30:47. > :30:46.extended to consider whether a not was any form of corruption in
:30:47. > :30:52.Rochdale town council in relation to the way in which it handled
:30:53. > :30:59.Rochdale town council in relation to that is the right way to proceed.
:31:00. > :30:59.But before I'd finish, that is the right way to proceed.
:31:00. > :31:04.allegations and they deserve to be seriously investigated. If young
:31:05. > :31:04.people have been seriously investigated. If young
:31:05. > :31:08.improper behaviour of the kind we are discussing, then that is
:31:09. > :31:11.improper behaviour of the kind we matter for me at least, of
:31:12. > :31:15.considerable progress. What about the party's reputation as a
:31:16. > :31:23.consequence of these allegations and who knew what other time? Well, it
:31:24. > :31:27.does not help stop but as was pointed out objectively by the two
:31:28. > :31:30.independent voices here from those two journalist is, people are
:31:31. > :31:33.independent voices here from those concerned about it, but they are
:31:34. > :31:35.more concerned about the bigger issues. So long as there is an
:31:36. > :31:41.indication of a serious attempt to establish the truth, I believe that
:31:42. > :31:44.will have the effect, not of staving off responsibility, but of showing
:31:45. > :31:46.that the Liberal Democrats, and indeed the police and any other
:31:47. > :31:49.organisations involved in indeed the police and any other
:31:50. > :31:53.matter, are taking the allegations seriously. I would not take the view
:31:54. > :31:58.some have that because this is seriously. I would not take the view
:31:59. > :32:06.in the past, it should be brushed under the carpet. Of course, for
:32:07. > :32:08.this particular reason, that if you are a victim, the consequences
:32:09. > :32:16.continue long after. Thank you. Now, depending on who you
:32:17. > :32:20.choose to listen to, today's, and is -- Commons vote on the high-speed
:32:21. > :32:24.rail link will either be a resounding vote in favour of HS2 or
:32:25. > :32:29.a sizeable Tory revolt. Actually, it will probably be both. The
:32:30. > :32:36.government will win the vote now that Labour has come out in support
:32:37. > :32:41.of the project, for now. However, various reports suggest that as many
:32:42. > :32:44.as 40 Conservative MPs could if I the party whip and vote against the
:32:45. > :32:48.bill. One of the leading rebels is our guest, Cheryl Gillan. The
:32:49. > :32:51.proposed route for HS2 goes through her constituency of
:32:52. > :32:55.proposed route for HS2 goes through Amersham in the Chilterns. We will
:32:56. > :32:59.get her thoughts in a moment. First, our political correspondent is on
:33:00. > :32:59.College our political correspondent is on
:33:00. > :33:04.your sense of the size of the Conservative revolt? As you say, it
:33:05. > :33:12.depends who you ask. Over the weekend, Radio 4's the world this
:33:13. > :33:16.weekend did a ring round of about that about 30 of them would either
:33:17. > :33:20.vote against the government or abstained. Broadly speaking, that is
:33:21. > :33:23.vote against the government or the ballpark we are talking about.
:33:24. > :33:28.As morning in the lobby briefing for what Mr reports, there was an
:33:29. > :33:29.acknowledgement from Downing Street that there will be some MPs who have
:33:30. > :33:34.engagements elsewhere, who that there will be some MPs who have
:33:35. > :33:40.have found a good excuse not to vote this evening. Six ministers have
:33:41. > :33:41.constituencies among this evening. Six ministers have
:33:42. > :33:47.line for HS2. All six of them have been reluctant to
:33:48. > :33:47.line for HS2. All six of them have The Europe minister is one of them.
:33:48. > :33:47.line for HS2. All six of them have He happens to be in Estonia, quite a
:33:48. > :33:51.useful diary for him. He happens to be in Estonia, quite a
:33:52. > :33:54.fully signed up to HS2, no questions asked? It would seem so. For months
:33:55. > :33:57.on end, Labour appeared asked? It would seem so. For months
:33:58. > :34:03.best about HS2. I kept asked? It would seem so. For months
:34:04. > :34:08.phrase that there would be no blank cheque for the project. He felt the
:34:09. > :34:14.bill was cheque for the project. He felt the
:34:15. > :34:14.further north. They are now a lot warmer
:34:15. > :34:17.them to still use that phrase, no blank cheque, because who would be
:34:18. > :34:25.pro-handing out blank cheques for any project? They have stopped short
:34:26. > :34:28.of saying they are for it, but the costs and the timeline are huge for
:34:29. > :34:34.HS2. 50 billion quid is the bill. costs and the timeline are huge for
:34:35. > :34:37.billion quid just on the trains. So this high-speed turbo-charged Thomas
:34:38. > :34:42.the Tank Engine does not come cheap. More than a bit of loose
:34:43. > :34:46.change. Cheryl Gillan, you have been labelled as chief rouble
:34:47. > :34:50.change. Cheryl Gillan, you have been Before we get onto the politics, can
:34:51. > :34:54.you tell us again come what is your objection to HS2? Firstly, I think
:34:55. > :34:59.this project is completely being at the wrong way round. If you want to
:35:00. > :35:01.improve the north-south divide, which is where it started, you
:35:02. > :35:06.improve the north-south divide, should start looking at it in the
:35:07. > :35:09.north and how you connect the northern cities to each other before
:35:10. > :35:11.you start to connect Birmingham to northern cities to each other before
:35:12. > :35:14.London. This is also an astronomically costly project. It is
:35:15. > :35:24.50 billion at the moment. That does not include the costs for connecting
:35:25. > :35:27.this new, shiny railway into the existing infrastructure. So I think
:35:28. > :35:36.we have gone about it in the wrong way. We are even building it so that
:35:37. > :35:36.it does not connect directly to the Channel Tunnel
:35:37. > :35:39.it does not connect directly to the direct link to Heathrow. Indeed we
:35:40. > :35:41.are building it before we know where direct link to Heathrow. Indeed we
:35:42. > :35:47.our south-east airport capacity is going to be. On the connectivity,
:35:48. > :35:52.why not just connect those northern cities to each other? Because it is
:35:53. > :35:57.the harsh reality that the engine room of the economy is the
:35:58. > :36:01.south-east. If you are a northern city, you may find yourself with the
:36:02. > :36:06.same problems as a neighbouring city. But the way this is to be
:36:07. > :36:11.resolved seems to me by having a greater degree of connectivity. In
:36:12. > :36:15.addition, we know this is not an either/or situation. The government
:36:16. > :36:20.is committed to ?46 billion of investment over the next period to
:36:21. > :36:24.improve these very communications which Cheryl Gillan says are an
:36:25. > :36:28.alternative to HS2. We can have both. Do you accept that your
:36:29. > :36:35.argument has been knocked down? Always beware of politicians saying
:36:36. > :36:39.you can have your cake and eat it. Do you accept that point? Every
:36:40. > :36:42.you can have your cake and eat it. economic study you look at, when you
:36:43. > :36:47.connect smaller cities to the major hub, London in this case, it
:36:48. > :36:51.attracts more business into London. Ming Campbell is right in many
:36:52. > :36:55.ways. London will probably gain more business than the regions.
:36:56. > :36:59.Connecting Birmingham to London first makes that more likely. Even
:37:00. > :37:03.as late as this morning, the Institute of Economic Affairs has
:37:04. > :37:10.come out with a report casting enormous doubts on the business
:37:11. > :37:18.benefits that are claimed for this railway. Cheryl is doing what she
:37:19. > :37:24.has to do, which is fighting like a tiger for her constituents. But I
:37:25. > :37:30.disagree with her. She knows that, and I have disagreed with her ever
:37:31. > :37:34.since HS2 was conceived. But is she wrong? I think she is wrong, because
:37:35. > :37:41.the driver of the UK economy is London. And why the northern
:37:42. > :37:46.neighbours want their cities connected so that the journey to
:37:47. > :37:51.London is quicker is that so that some of that growth impact can be
:37:52. > :37:58.spread. But the important thing now about HS2 is, we have got the best
:37:59. > :38:00.people running this. David about HS2 is, we have got the best
:38:01. > :38:06.has been right through the project. There has been a assurance on the
:38:07. > :38:13.costs. There has been assurance on the scope. Now the most important
:38:14. > :38:17.thing for this is certainty. And certainty across parties that
:38:18. > :38:23.between now and 2026, this line is going to be built. Except that it is
:38:24. > :38:27.not done and dusted. How many rebels are there 's eye don't know. To put
:38:28. > :38:30.a number would be dangerous. Going are there 's eye don't know. To put
:38:31. > :38:34.against your party's policy is a big are there 's eye don't know. To put
:38:35. > :38:43.thing. I am not a natural rebel. But I am convinced. The point is, let's
:38:44. > :38:45.put this in perspective. We are asking the taxpayer and the public
:38:46. > :38:52.to spend the largest amount of money asking the taxpayer and the public
:38:53. > :38:56.on any project that any government has spent in living memory. The
:38:57. > :38:56.government has already suppressed the reports into it which would show
:38:57. > :39:01.government has already suppressed the risks. If you are going
:39:02. > :39:06.this, the government should have published those reports and shown
:39:07. > :39:06.this, the government should have how they deal with the risks. If
:39:07. > :39:13.this, the government should have Tessa is right and I
:39:14. > :39:13.although I don't think it is black and white, those reports should have
:39:14. > :39:19.been out there. But had a twin track approach. I have
:39:20. > :39:26.tried to persuade my government that I think there are better ways of
:39:27. > :39:30.spending this sort of money on projects that bring wider benefits.
:39:31. > :39:36.But if it is going to go ahead, for goodness sake, let us protect our
:39:37. > :39:37.environment and let us compensate those people whose lives and
:39:38. > :39:43.businesses are affected. Today's Guardian reports that you are
:39:44. > :39:49.backing new proposals for a 15 mile tunnel through the Chilterns, which
:39:50. > :40:01.is your backyard. I am on board for proper compensation. I don't know if
:40:02. > :40:05.I am on board for the tunnel. But I am in favour of disproportionate
:40:06. > :40:16.attention to the people who are most disrupted. That was the essence of
:40:17. > :40:22.keeping to time on the Olympics. Our engineer that has been working on
:40:23. > :40:30.the tunnelling proposals is somebody who has worked with David Higgins,
:40:31. > :40:30.who did do a good job on the Olympics. He
:40:31. > :40:33.who did do a good job on the engineering team has come up with
:40:34. > :40:37.this because it is important that we protect a nationally designated
:40:38. > :40:42.site. Would you be on board for HS2 protect a nationally designated
:40:43. > :40:42.with the tunnel? I will always be a sceptic about this project, I'm
:40:43. > :40:49.afraid. But if it is going to go ahead, that is what democracy is
:40:50. > :40:53.about, then I want the best deal for our environment. If you like, that
:40:54. > :40:55.about, then I want the best deal for could be enough to bring you some
:40:56. > :41:02.way on board. I am not unreasonable. But is the tactic now
:41:03. > :41:07.a delay in one? Is the idea that you bogged down the whole process? It
:41:08. > :41:12.will not be completely signed off until the next Parliament. This has
:41:13. > :41:18.never been a question about destructive politics. Over the next
:41:19. > :41:23.two days, we will set up a hybrid Bill committee. There is a
:41:24. > :41:26.petitioning process which is arcane and very complicated. I will try
:41:27. > :41:31.petitioning process which is arcane guide people through it. We will try
:41:32. > :41:36.and make guide people through it. We will try
:41:37. > :41:36.petitioners to the hybrid Bill committee to make changes to what
:41:37. > :41:40.the government is proposing to committee to make changes to what
:41:41. > :41:42.the best possible deal. That could go on the two or three years. You
:41:43. > :41:47.say that support is certain from Labour. Is it unconditional? Has the
:41:48. > :41:51.blank cheque caveat disappeared? And if Labour were to win the next
:41:52. > :41:58.election, would they support it? Yes. It is important that that
:41:59. > :42:06.certainty exists. It is also important, to take Cheryl's point,
:42:07. > :42:16.that every single one of these public pounds works much harder.
:42:17. > :42:21.40,000 jobs, apprenticeships, and to take the point about building
:42:22. > :42:27.vibrancy into the cities rather than sucking out growth potential, that
:42:28. > :42:33.also has to be done. You can't rest everything on this project, but this
:42:34. > :42:37.project unlocks potential that will never be realised without it. What
:42:38. > :42:43.about the opposition in Labour boroughs in London? What do you say
:42:44. > :42:48.to people in Camden, who do not want HS2 because of the disruption? I
:42:49. > :42:52.have talked to David Higgins about this. I think the HS2 team have got
:42:53. > :42:59.to be closely engaged with Camden on mitigation and compensation and
:43:00. > :43:04.moving quickly where families are faced with the prospect of having to
:43:05. > :43:09.sell their homes when house prices all around are going up and so
:43:10. > :43:16.forth. There will always be winners and losers. There will always be
:43:17. > :43:18.disruption. The alternative is to say, we are never going to renew our
:43:19. > :43:23.industry. It has to be handled in a sensitive way. The environment large
:43:24. > :43:27.and is, in my view, are extremely persuasive. But we should remind
:43:28. > :43:35.ourselves of what the benefits would be. The number of seats leaving used
:43:36. > :43:37.and go from 11,300 in the peak hour to a map of central capacity of
:43:38. > :43:43.35,000. The number of trains leaving Euston go from 16 to 30 per hour.
:43:44. > :43:51.Just think of the impact. Remember, the most overcrowded lines in London
:43:52. > :43:54.are not going into Euston, those are the least.
:43:55. > :43:58.Now, back to those European elections. This morning, it was the
:43:59. > :44:02.turn of the Green Party to launch their campaign, unveiling their
:44:03. > :44:06.manifesto, they have made some eye-catching pledges, promising to
:44:07. > :44:12.scrap tuition fees, renationalise the railways and put in place a
:44:13. > :44:16.living wage. They are hoping this platform will help them treble their
:44:17. > :44:19.living wage. They are hoping this number of MEPs to six. Here is their
:44:20. > :44:23.leader, Natalie Bennett, explaining earlier what makes the Greens
:44:24. > :44:23.different. When voters vote Green, they get green. We don't just
:44:24. > :44:27.different. When voters vote Green, highlight the problems, we provide
:44:28. > :44:32.lasting solutions. So this is an election about choice. There are
:44:33. > :44:38.three choices. There is the politics of fear. That is UKIP. There is the
:44:39. > :44:43.politics of this as usual. That is the three currently largest parties.
:44:44. > :44:50.Or there is the politics of hope, which is the politics of the Green
:44:51. > :44:55.Party. The Green Party offers real change that improves the life of
:44:56. > :45:06.everyone, real change for the common good. And the leader of the Greens,
:45:07. > :45:12.magically, is with us now. You said you were planning to fight the
:45:13. > :45:18.elections as the anti-UKIP party. What does that mean? It means that
:45:19. > :45:21.we are the party that is standing up to UKIP, saying that
:45:22. > :45:24.we are the party that is standing up tackle this dangerous race to the
:45:25. > :45:27.bottom in terms of immigration rhetoric. The largest parties have
:45:28. > :45:31.been chasing UKIP, trying to out UKIP UKIP. We need to try to stand
:45:32. > :45:34.up to them and say it is dangerous and damaging. It needs to stop, in
:45:35. > :45:41.terms of and damaging. It needs to stop, in
:45:42. > :45:41.change is real and we need to take action. The Green voters and UKIP
:45:42. > :45:51.voters are not the same people. action. The Green voters and UKIP
:45:52. > :45:56.are not battling for the same boat. But we are seeing them, for example
:45:57. > :45:56.a man in Manchester last week who said he did not want to touch
:45:57. > :46:01.politics because it was such a mess, but now after the
:46:02. > :46:06.politics because it was such a UKIP, he says he cannot sit on the
:46:07. > :46:06.fence any more. If someone is concerned about immigration
:46:07. > :46:13.fence any more. If someone is effect of the European Union on the
:46:14. > :46:13.UK, they will effect of the European Union on the
:46:14. > :46:22.think when you talk to people, if you say
:46:23. > :46:22.think when you talk to people, if about? People are concerned about
:46:23. > :46:28.low wages and that is a failure of government policy. The minimum wage
:46:29. > :46:28.is not enforced. There housing, which is a failure of
:46:29. > :46:32.policy. There is an issue with housing, which is a failure of
:46:33. > :46:37.crowded schools and hospitals. When you talk to people and I'm picked
:46:38. > :46:41.their concerns, often they are not concerned about immigration. It
:46:42. > :46:41.their concerns, often they are not because society is not working for
:46:42. > :46:46.their concerns, often they are not the common good. Let's look at these
:46:47. > :46:51.policies. Scrapping tuition fees and the common good. Let's look at these
:46:52. > :46:51.prescription fees, renationalising the
:46:52. > :46:54.prescription fees, renationalising Introducing a living wage. How much
:46:55. > :46:58.will that cost? If we take those, winning the railways back into
:46:59. > :47:04.public hands, which Caroline Lucas has before the house, it does not
:47:05. > :47:09.cost anything. You wait for the operating contracts to lapse. And
:47:10. > :47:16.cost anything. You wait for the it now runs. If you take tuition
:47:17. > :47:23.fees, you look at the fact that as people to pay back loans that they
:47:24. > :47:23.do not burn the money to pay back has
:47:24. > :47:29.do not burn the money to pay back the money. We need to get companies
:47:30. > :47:33.do not burn the money to pay back You would increase income taxes?
:47:34. > :47:36.Very much for the wealthiest. The policies in 2010, we had a fully
:47:37. > :47:41.costed manifesto. 95% of people were better out. The 50p tax rate started
:47:42. > :47:46.at ?100,000. Is that what it is going to be? We will be doing the
:47:47. > :47:50.figures for another costed manifesto in 2015 and I would expect
:47:51. > :47:55.figures for another costed manifesto rate of tax will be higher than 50%.
:47:56. > :47:56.Although rate of tax will be higher than 50%.
:47:57. > :48:01.would not get the sort of money and rate of tax will be higher than 50%.
:48:02. > :48:02.revenue that Labour said he would rate of tax will be higher than 50%.
:48:03. > :48:11.get under 50p for incomes of ?150,000. White Dee me
:48:12. > :48:19.get under 50p for incomes of their money from. Do they draw
:48:20. > :48:19.get under 50p for incomes of my colleague on my right is that if
:48:20. > :48:19.get under 50p for incomes of you are going to do well and aspire
:48:20. > :48:27.to improve your session, you are going to do well and aspire
:48:28. > :48:32.UK, do not do it under the Green you are going to do well and aspire
:48:33. > :48:33.Party. We under national policies. I'd
:48:34. > :48:38.appreciate that the Green Party is supporting me against HS2. However,
:48:39. > :48:41.I am afraid that cannot subscribe to anything you are saying. This
:48:42. > :48:48.election is about offering people a choice on Europe and I do not think
:48:49. > :48:50.you do that. You are in favour of an in-out referendum? We do.
:48:51. > :48:54.you do that. You are in favour of an in democracy and if it is good
:48:55. > :48:54.enough for the Scots it is good in democracy and if it is good
:48:55. > :49:04.enough for the rest of us. in democracy and if it is good
:49:05. > :49:04.would campaign to stay in Europe. But
:49:05. > :49:07.would campaign to stay in Europe. are against the free trade deal. It
:49:08. > :49:09.is absolutely disastrous for democracy and absolutely disastrous
:49:10. > :49:16.in terms of the situation where US governments can sue the EU. I'm glad
:49:17. > :49:19.we got to that. When I was reviewing the green policies, that once
:49:20. > :49:25.we got to that. When I was reviewing out. Is it argued that it is against
:49:26. > :49:26.the interests of the United Kingdom to enter into a free trade with
:49:27. > :49:29.the interests of the United Kingdom North America? I mean, it is
:49:30. > :49:37.extraordinary. I'm fascinated by the notion that you can renationalise
:49:38. > :49:38.the railways and it will not cost anything. What about the running
:49:39. > :49:42.costs thereafter? Will pick these up? The taxpayer does now. And the
:49:43. > :49:46.costs thereafter? Will pick these other point, I understand that the
:49:47. > :49:50.Greens rejected any question of a reduction in the EU budget. At a
:49:51. > :49:53.time when everyone agrees that there is an element of redundancy in the
:49:54. > :49:59.budget and that it should be reduced. In order to ensure that we
:50:00. > :50:04.get value from money. No value for money? There are a lot of issues
:50:05. > :50:06.there. The free-trade deal is the most important. First of all,
:50:07. > :50:11.there. The free-trade deal is the focus on the fact that negotiations
:50:12. > :50:17.are being conducted in secrecy. MEPs are not being told about that. If
:50:18. > :50:20.that is the case, why can we not do this democratically? We're talking
:50:21. > :50:23.about harmonisation of regulations. In the US, you can wash chicken
:50:24. > :50:27.carcasses in bleach and sell them In the US, you can wash chicken
:50:28. > :50:32.the public. That is against EU In the US, you can wash chicken
:50:33. > :50:35.rules. Beef and other meat laced in hormones are sold in the US.
:50:36. > :50:36.European governments could be hormones are sold in the US.
:50:37. > :50:43.if they create regulations to protect the public. This is the way
:50:44. > :50:47.that negotiations are carried on in private. Able make that kind of
:50:48. > :50:51.point in public. The public should not know about these things? They
:50:52. > :50:56.will be eventually presented with a package that contains the details.
:50:57. > :51:01.will be eventually presented with a grandstanding which we have just
:51:02. > :51:04.seen. And you want to go from two to six? A swing to 2% would allow us to
:51:05. > :51:06.trouble the number of MEPs. Hands up who knows who their MEP is.
:51:07. > :51:10.Anyone? Anyone? It's fair to say that this side
:51:11. > :51:13.of the channel our views of the European project have always
:51:14. > :51:16.been a tad cooler than those BBC online has been going back over
:51:17. > :51:20.the archives looking at our often tempestuous
:51:21. > :51:22.relationship with the European project, and they're putting some
:51:23. > :51:25.gems up on their website. # Not, not common market, not common
:51:26. > :52:11.market scum. More results since we have come on
:52:12. > :52:19.the air. Yes is showing at city 7% and the no vote at 33%. We not
:52:20. > :52:24.asking the community money, it is asking the community to have our own
:52:25. > :52:28.money back. We wanted at the European Parliament to be the
:52:29. > :52:32.democratic body of the community. We wanted the commission to be the
:52:33. > :52:42.executive and he wanted a council of ministers to be the Senate. No, no,
:52:43. > :52:46.no. The government has concluded that Britain's best interest is
:52:47. > :52:52.served by suspending our membership with the exchange rate mechanism.
:52:53. > :53:00.What people are saying is get Britain out. Watch the Portuguese
:53:01. > :53:05.Prime Minister's lips as he greets Mr Miliband? The Prime Minister is
:53:06. > :53:19.on his way as we speak. He is not locked away.
:53:20. > :53:24.That is known as the political culture order. Good to see Gordon
:53:25. > :53:32.Brown rocked up eventually. If that whetted your attitude, -- appetite,
:53:33. > :53:34.check out our politics section where you can access the material like
:53:35. > :53:41.that which you have seen. We're joined now
:53:42. > :53:53.by the Daily Mail's sketchwriter What does that mean? It is French,
:53:54. > :53:57.you know. A YouGov poll recently found that 95% of the British public
:53:58. > :54:02.could not name the MEPs representing their area. Whose fault is that? I
:54:03. > :54:07.think it is the fault of the system. Possibly. I was thinking, as I was
:54:08. > :54:12.walking along here today, do I know mine? Anthea McIntire I think. Do
:54:13. > :54:16.not think it is the fault of the individuals. If it was the
:54:17. > :54:21.individual's fault, we would no more of them. There would be more
:54:22. > :54:28.exceptional people doing it. I think it is the fact that they do not have
:54:29. > :54:32.obvious powers. Also, the fact that they sit in Brussels. Perhaps it is
:54:33. > :54:36.the fault of the press. Perhaps we ought to report from Brussels more.
:54:37. > :54:43.And I'm told you are right on your MEP. Well done. Congratulations. You
:54:44. > :54:47.are in the 5%. There is this contradiction... It would be
:54:48. > :54:51.worrying if I did not know! There is a contradiction. We top about Europe
:54:52. > :54:56.and if an item but no one knows their MEP. Why? I have only ever
:54:57. > :55:03.done two sketches for the mail from Brussels. It was a terrific route to
:55:04. > :55:10.go there. It makes for lots of Tamil. Rich pickings! Perhaps it is
:55:11. > :55:14.our fault. Why do not go more? Because it costs a bit of money and
:55:15. > :55:18.there is a limit as to how many jokes you can make about blokes
:55:19. > :55:24.speaking Polish. Perhaps that is the reason. We are to be more involved
:55:25. > :55:30.in the minutiae. I do not see many readers leaping around as a result
:55:31. > :55:34.of that. What is it about the European elections that leave the
:55:35. > :55:39.electorate called? Be quite enjoy the chants -- they quite enjoy the
:55:40. > :55:42.chance to cast a vote that does not matter so much. That is why UKIP is
:55:43. > :55:47.doing so well at the moment because it may be a chance to show a protest
:55:48. > :55:53.against the other parties. And why are the elections, local and the EU
:55:54. > :55:58.elections, attracting, how can I put it, more colourful characters? I
:55:59. > :56:02.believe is for standing in the European election if they are going
:56:03. > :56:05.to get a ?175,000 payoff the matter what happens? What a scandal. I hope
:56:06. > :56:11.you will try to whip up opposition to that. But I think that the
:56:12. > :56:15.elections, at general election time, the loonies tend to get drawn to the
:56:16. > :56:21.Prime Minister or the leader of the opposition seats. Tony Blair's seat
:56:22. > :56:24.in the old days, there was always a bloke that looked like Boss Hogg.
:56:25. > :56:30.And now he turns up in Witney, and who knows where he might go next.
:56:31. > :56:37.They go where the media is. Do you have a favourite colourful figure?
:56:38. > :56:42.David Icke once stood against David Davis, and he had a press conference
:56:43. > :56:45.which was an otherworldly event. If you remember, he was convinced we
:56:46. > :56:51.were all aliens. That was a party that once stood, they were called
:56:52. > :56:55.let's throw a blancmange down Terry Wogan's underpants party. Pamela
:56:56. > :57:03.Stephenson was there as a candidate. I think she lost. Great material! It
:57:04. > :57:07.was so stupid that it brings the election process into disrepute. As,
:57:08. > :57:13.arguably, does the rope turnout in some of these European elections. I
:57:14. > :57:22.think that Quentin is onto something. In that these are not
:57:23. > :57:25.elections that engage real voters with the things that most matters.
:57:26. > :57:30.They do not feel a sense of urgency. They do not feel compelled
:57:31. > :57:38.to go out and vote except to register a protest against the
:57:39. > :57:48.established politics that they feel. And that is why it is a rebuke to
:57:49. > :57:54.all of us. The fact that you cannot honestly, from everything we have
:57:55. > :57:57.heard this morning and read, and Cheryl is absolutely right about
:57:58. > :58:01.this, the people who say they are going to vote UKIP, the people I
:58:02. > :58:06.have met canvassing, they are angry. They do not know anything much about
:58:07. > :58:12.what UKIP stands for. And that could be dangerous. It is a good gate, as
:58:13. > :58:17.Quentin says. A terrific cake. Nick Clegg, of course, was a famous MEP.
:58:18. > :58:22.He was there for some time and made a substantial contribution. But Tess
:58:23. > :58:27.is onto something, this question that being a rebuke to all us. There
:58:28. > :58:30.was just time before we go to find out the answer to the quiz.
:58:31. > :58:34.The question was how long would Nick Clegg like to serve as Deputy PM?
:58:35. > :58:48.On and on. No, it is until 2020. Anyway, I'm going to say thank you
:58:49. > :58:54.to all our guests. He is feeling bad now. On that age over experience,
:58:55. > :59:08.thank you very much. Goodbye. BBC Radio 5 live
:59:09. > :59:12.is where news comes to life. And this week on 5 live Breakfast,
:59:13. > :59:16.we're travelling across the UK to explore the stories
:59:17. > :59:19.that matter to you.