:00:36. > :00:40.Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:48.in connection with one of the most notorious IRA murders.
:00:49. > :00:52.in Antrim over the execution of Jean McConville,
:00:53. > :00:58.a widowed mother of ten who was dragged from her home in 1972.
:00:59. > :01:01.Labour bigwigs gather in London's East End for the launch
:01:02. > :01:04.of their election campaign today, as the party declares war
:01:05. > :01:20.I'm looking forward to the bank holiday weekend.
:01:21. > :01:22.But others think we should ditch the so-called workers? day
:01:23. > :01:33.And with us for the whole programme today is the journalist and author,
:01:34. > :01:37.He's Margaret Thatcher's official biographer, for which he
:01:38. > :01:43.Now first today, let?s turn our attention to Northern Ireland
:01:44. > :01:48.The Sinn Fein leader spent the night being questioned by
:01:49. > :01:53.police investigating the murder of Jean McConville over 40 years ago.
:01:54. > :01:57.The widowed mother of ten was abducted and shot dead by the IRA
:01:58. > :02:03.in 1972 after she was wrongly accused of being an informer.
:02:04. > :02:07.Last night, Gerry Adams was detained after he voluntarily attended Antrim
:02:08. > :02:11.We can speak now to our Ireland Correspondent,
:02:12. > :02:31.Mark, Gerry Adams was arrested yesterday and the terrorism act of
:02:32. > :02:38.2000. What happens now? Well, the detectives who are investigating the
:02:39. > :02:41.murder of Jean McConville have 24 hours initially to talk to Mr Adams,
:02:42. > :02:44.which would take us until eight o'clock tonight. If a superintendent
:02:45. > :02:48.decides there are sufficient grounds for another 24 hours, that is all
:02:49. > :02:52.they need, the word of the superintendent, to hold him for 48
:02:53. > :02:56.hours. After that, if they need a further extension, they would have
:02:57. > :03:00.to go to a judge to apply for that and they would have to be in
:03:01. > :03:03.agreement about the number of days or hours he could be held.
:03:04. > :03:07.Potentially, the terrorism act allows for people to be held up to
:03:08. > :03:09.28 days, but that is unusual and given the high-profile nature of it
:03:10. > :03:11.Adams, they would have to have a very serious reason to think they
:03:12. > :03:15.needed that kind of time. Our people shocked and surprised by the arrest?
:03:16. > :03:18.I think the surprise is that he is an extremely high-profile figure,
:03:19. > :03:23.the leader of the second largest party in Northern Ireland and the
:03:24. > :03:28.party which is making increasing inroads south of the Irish border.
:03:29. > :03:32.They are involved in a European election and are expected to top the
:03:33. > :03:36.poll in Northern Ireland and potentially get three MEPs elected
:03:37. > :03:44.south of the border. So there is the surprise. But anyone who has
:03:45. > :03:46.followed the story of Jean McColgan knows that detectives have been
:03:47. > :03:54.examining some tapes recorded by ex-IRA members, some of them dead,
:03:55. > :04:01.in which they have said they have knowledge of this case. That has led
:04:02. > :04:09.to the arrest of one veteran Republican who was active in Belfast
:04:10. > :04:10.around that time. He is has been charged with aiding and abetting in
:04:11. > :04:12.this murder, and there were reports that Gerry Adams was involved,
:04:13. > :04:13.reports which he denies. As you say, he has always protested his
:04:14. > :04:16.innocence over this. Sinn Fein are saying the timing of Gerry Adams'
:04:17. > :04:22.arrest is politically motivated because of the elections around the
:04:23. > :04:28.corner. Yes, the political argument is that Sinn Fein are pointing out
:04:29. > :04:33.that about four weeks ago, after this other Irish republican was
:04:34. > :04:38.arrested, Gerry Adams offered to talk to the police. They are saying,
:04:39. > :04:41.why did the police not to take him up on his offer at that stage?
:04:42. > :04:46.Detectives will no doubt say they needed to take their time to go
:04:47. > :04:51.through the evidence and decide who they wanted to talk to. But Sinn
:04:52. > :04:54.Fein said the timing is politically motivated because the election
:04:55. > :04:58.campaign is at its height and Sinn Fein's opponents are saying Gerry
:04:59. > :05:02.Adams must not be above the law. The police must do their job. This
:05:03. > :05:06.argument will play out in public later today, because we have a
:05:07. > :05:10.meeting of the policing board whether most senior officers in the
:05:11. > :05:15.PSNI will face questions in public, the politicians. You mentioned these
:05:16. > :05:18.tapes that were recorded in Boston by an American university with
:05:19. > :05:22.former paramilitary is. Does the investigation hinge on those tapes?
:05:23. > :05:26.We don't know for sure whether there is any additional evidential trail
:05:27. > :05:30.is that the police are following, but we do expect the tapes to
:05:31. > :05:35.feature strongly. There will be a question mark as to whether they
:05:36. > :05:40.will eventually be seen as being at miserable in terms of evidence. The
:05:41. > :05:44.tapes were recorded for an academic project and were not meant to be
:05:45. > :05:48.released until those who had given interviews did. We did get the
:05:49. > :05:53.deaths of a couple of people, and those tapes then came into the
:05:54. > :05:56.public domain. We also have an American but case which ended up
:05:57. > :06:00.with the PSNI being granted permission to seize other material
:06:01. > :06:04.from that academic project. It is thought that that is one of the
:06:05. > :06:09.other reasons why they are questioning either Bell about this.
:06:10. > :06:14.But we believe Gerry Adams had no part in that project, so we don't
:06:15. > :06:18.expect there to be any tapes involving him himself. So there will
:06:19. > :06:20.be a question mark over whether tape-recorded conversations of
:06:21. > :06:34.anybody talking about Gerry Adams will be considered admissible. A
:06:35. > :06:39.former IRA commander accused Gerry Adams of Jean McConville's murder
:06:40. > :06:45.before his death in 2008. Here is a recording of what he said. This
:06:46. > :06:48.woman was taken away and executed. Jean McConville. There is only one
:06:49. > :06:56.man who gave the order for that woman to be executed. That man is
:06:57. > :06:59.now the head of Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams maintained his
:07:00. > :07:04.innocence. This was him speaking before his arrest last night. I am
:07:05. > :07:07.going voluntarily to talk to the PSNI, because there has been a
:07:08. > :07:15.lengthy, malicious campaign against me. I will tell the PSNI that I am
:07:16. > :07:22.innocent of any part in the abduction and killing of Jean
:07:23. > :07:25.McConville. In an emotional interview to the Today programme
:07:26. > :07:29.this morning, Jean McConville's son said he knew who murdered his
:07:30. > :07:36.mother, but was unwilling to a unveiled that information. Let's
:07:37. > :07:42.listen to what he had to say. If I told the police anything about it,
:07:43. > :07:45.me or my family members would get shot by these people. Probably
:07:46. > :07:53.thinks this has all gone away. It hasn't gone away. People get
:07:54. > :08:00.targeted all the day. I am not saying by the IRA. But they would
:08:01. > :08:03.class you as an informant and they would shoot you.
:08:04. > :08:05.We're joined now from Belfast by Derek Henderson,
:08:06. > :08:07.who was PA's Ireland Correspondent for over 30 years.
:08:08. > :08:15.And in the studio, we have Naomi Long from the Alliance Party.
:08:16. > :08:22.Your reaction firstly to the arrest of Gerry Adams? The important thing
:08:23. > :08:25.to bear in mind is the feelings of the McConville family. We have to
:08:26. > :08:28.remember that this is a very difficult day for them and
:08:29. > :08:31.re-awakens the feelings they have about the disappearance of their
:08:32. > :08:35.mother 40 years ago. If the police believe they have reason to question
:08:36. > :08:39.Gerry Adams, it is important that they feel they can do that
:08:40. > :08:42.regardless of the profile of the person, regardless of the political
:08:43. > :08:46.position. It is important that we are treated equally under the law.
:08:47. > :08:50.That is important for people to take away from this. It will clearly draw
:08:51. > :08:53.attention because of his profile, but that should not preclude the
:08:54. > :08:58.police following their investigations. Derek Henderson,
:08:59. > :09:04.what is your reaction to the arrest of Gerry Adams? It does not come as
:09:05. > :09:06.any great surprise. Those of us who have been following this case for
:09:07. > :09:12.several years knew there was an inevitability about it. Gerry Adams
:09:13. > :09:16.has consistently denied any involvement in this case. One man
:09:17. > :09:21.has been charged with aiding and abetting in the murder of Jean
:09:22. > :09:25.McColgan. -- Jean McConville. Gerry Adams has known for some time that
:09:26. > :09:29.the police would eventually come knocking on his door. He agreed
:09:30. > :09:34.through a solicitor to present himself to the police last night. It
:09:35. > :09:39.was all well choreographed, well orchestrated by Sinn Fein. I
:09:40. > :09:44.understand Mr Adams sought some sort of assurances that there would be no
:09:45. > :09:48.publicity in advance of his arrest and the police did not release his
:09:49. > :09:53.name, but it did not prevent him giving a pre-recorded interview. And
:09:54. > :09:55.at the same time, Sinn Fein issued a statement where he categorically
:09:56. > :10:00.denied any involvement in the murder. Did you know the McConville
:10:01. > :10:06.family? I met them once or twice over the years. As you can imagine,
:10:07. > :10:09.they have been living with this for over 40 years. It has had an awful
:10:10. > :10:14.impact on them, especially when their mother was taken away and
:10:15. > :10:19.interrogated, had her hands tied behind her back and then was shot in
:10:20. > :10:22.the back of the head. The family were traumatised. They were split up
:10:23. > :10:26.and taken into care. were traumatised. They were split up
:10:27. > :10:30.and taken Are you surprised that now? I was shocked, listening to
:10:31. > :10:34.Michael McConville said, I saw the faces of the men who took my mother
:10:35. > :10:40.away, but I will still not say who they were. Well, up to a dozen
:10:41. > :10:47.people, both men and women were involved in her abduction. It was
:10:48. > :10:53.the early days of the troubles. It was chaotic on the streets of
:10:54. > :10:57.Belfast. One can only begin to imagine what it must have been like
:10:58. > :11:03.that night when this guy arrived at the house and took Jean McConville
:11:04. > :11:11.away. It was an awful scene. What about now, Naomi Long? There is a
:11:12. > :11:14.fear that clearly still exists in communities in Northern Ireland. Is
:11:15. > :11:19.that a truer representation of how people feel in some parts of
:11:20. > :11:23.Northern Ireland than the impression we get over here? It would be true
:11:24. > :11:27.to say that there have been huge improvements in Northern Ireland,
:11:28. > :11:30.that has not diminished the influence of paramilitary 's in
:11:31. > :11:35.terms of the degree to which they can control and intimidate within
:11:36. > :11:38.local communities. We saw that fear reflected in what Michael said, that
:11:39. > :11:43.those who are dissident or have previously threatened his family may
:11:44. > :11:45.do so again if they feel their current position was under threat
:11:46. > :11:49.because of any statement he would make. People will be shocked by
:11:50. > :11:55.that. Do you think that is just how it is? It is not shocking for those
:11:56. > :11:57.of us who live in Northern Ireland with it daily. I regularly receive
:11:58. > :12:03.complaints from my constituents about crimes committed by people who
:12:04. > :12:05.they know, but they are afraid pass that information to the police
:12:06. > :12:08.because of fear of retribution because those people may have
:12:09. > :12:15.paramilitary contacts. That is clearly not acceptable. The police
:12:16. > :12:17.try to provide opportunities for people to give information through
:12:18. > :12:21.confidential telephone lines. That does not work in a case like this
:12:22. > :12:26.where the information could clearly only come from the immediate family.
:12:27. > :12:30.So I can understand how difficult it must be. We also have to be
:12:31. > :12:32.compassionate. What an awful thing to know, that you hold the
:12:33. > :12:37.information that could lead to the conviction of those who brutalised
:12:38. > :12:40.your mother, and yet feel too frightened for your own family to
:12:41. > :12:44.speak out about it. It is a testament to why we need to deal
:12:45. > :12:49.with our past in Northern Ireland, because it casts a long shadow over
:12:50. > :12:52.the present. We will come to that issue over whether they're still
:12:53. > :12:56.need is to be delving into the past to move ahead, but do you think
:12:57. > :13:01.justice will be done for the McConville family here? That remains
:13:02. > :13:06.to be seen. Where the evidential trail leads, we are not clear. We
:13:07. > :13:14.know it started with the tapes at Boston College. Is that enough to
:13:15. > :13:19.establish a prima facie case against anybody? I don't know. We will have
:13:20. > :13:23.to wait and see. As Mark Devenport went about early, Gerry Adams could
:13:24. > :13:28.be released as early as eight o'clock tonight, or he could be held
:13:29. > :13:32.for another 24 hours with a superintendent's extension. To go
:13:33. > :13:38.beyond that, they have to go to the courts to hold him for 28 days. I
:13:39. > :13:43.doubt that will happen. What about the future? You talked about the
:13:44. > :13:47.fact that there has to be a raking over of the past to move forward.
:13:48. > :13:52.How much further has Northern Ireland got to go? It is not about
:13:53. > :13:57.raking over the past. The problem is that we have a piecemeal approach to
:13:58. > :14:01.dealing with the past, tit-for-tat. People have no confidence that there
:14:02. > :14:05.is equality under the law. For a stable future in Northern Ireland,
:14:06. > :14:10.we need a comprehensive approach to the past. That was what we said
:14:11. > :14:14.during the talks by Richard Haass earlier in the year. I believe we
:14:15. > :14:18.cannot have a lasting peace unless it is built on the foundations of
:14:19. > :14:23.the rule of law and justice. We have to put respect for families and
:14:24. > :14:29.victims at the heart of what we do if we are to move forward in a way
:14:30. > :14:31.that has integrity. Are you optimistic 's it is a difficult
:14:32. > :14:35.point in Northern Ireland's history, but yes, I am optimistic
:14:36. > :14:41.about the future. We have gone a long way since I was born in 1971. I
:14:42. > :14:45.was one-year-old when Jean McConville was abducted. You are the
:14:46. > :14:49.future. Actually, there are people younger than me who I think are the
:14:50. > :14:53.future, but I am in politics because I believe their future ought to be
:14:54. > :14:56.better. What about young people in Northern Ireland? Is there a sense
:14:57. > :15:02.among those younger than you who feel they would just like to move
:15:03. > :15:07.on, which was why I mentioned the past? Do they think, we need to put
:15:08. > :15:10.this behind us, or is there still a strong sense of a feeling for
:15:11. > :15:17.justice amongst the youth? It varies. Around 80% of young people
:15:18. > :15:19.recently felt they wanted to make a life for themselves outside of
:15:20. > :15:24.Northern Ireland, but I don't think we can move forward without being
:15:25. > :15:34.just over the past. This is their present, not their past. We need to
:15:35. > :15:36.work to heal it. Sinn Fein has said this is politically motivated
:15:37. > :15:44.because of the elections. What do you say? I don't agree with that.
:15:45. > :15:58.Sinn Fein knew well live in advance this was going to happen. They knew
:15:59. > :16:04.eventually Gerry Adams was going to be questioned. This is just part of
:16:05. > :16:10.the process that is going to go on, and will continue, I would expect,
:16:11. > :16:15.for several months. Charles Moore, one of the issues is economic
:16:16. > :16:18.progress in Northern Ireland. Do you think that would be a momentous leap
:16:19. > :16:23.forward if people felt better off across the board in Northern
:16:24. > :16:26.Ireland, and then were not encouraged to engage in politically
:16:27. > :16:31.motivated activities in the way they have been in the past? It always
:16:32. > :16:37.helps. This does all have to be cleared up. Gerry Adams has been
:16:38. > :16:43.privileged through this process. In a very bad way. One of the group of
:16:44. > :16:47.people who were -- resent that are a lot of IRA people who fell out with
:16:48. > :16:52.him. They think they went through this combat, as they see it, which I
:16:53. > :16:57.would call murder, and he was with them. Then he comes out the other
:16:58. > :17:02.side with all of the fruits and all of the benefits. He is an allegedly
:17:03. > :17:07.respected figure. They do not like that. And they do not feel that is
:17:08. > :17:10.fair. Ordinary decent people in Northern Ireland do not feel it is
:17:11. > :17:16.fair because the friends of Jerry are important, that the authorities
:17:17. > :17:22.do not go after him. We had that with the John Downey question about
:17:23. > :17:25.the alleged Hyde Park bombing. Was there an amnesty laid out by the
:17:26. > :17:32.last British government? Interestingly, Gerry Adams has been
:17:33. > :17:39.hoisted by zone petard now. -- his own petard. He was not on the wanted
:17:40. > :17:42.list. He did not provide for his own protection. A lot of his gang are
:17:43. > :17:50.protected. It is interesting to see him caught on this one. Do you think
:17:51. > :17:53.he has had preferential treatment? Part of the difficulty is that the
:17:54. > :17:56.police have been trying to find evidence. It is fine to talk about
:17:57. > :18:01.what everyone knows people have done. Ultimately you have two pass
:18:02. > :18:10.an evidential threshold. While there may be rumours, they now have an
:18:11. > :18:14.inquiry lead. They are following that. I don't think anybody,
:18:15. > :18:19.regardless of their political position, ought to be above the law.
:18:20. > :18:21.It is an important message at a critical time because of the
:18:22. > :18:26.exposure of the on the run scheme, that people get that message very
:18:27. > :18:31.clearly, that nobody should be above the law. It is an important message
:18:32. > :18:34.to send to dissident republicans, who are currently engaged in
:18:35. > :18:40.violence, and loyalists who are doing the same thing. Deric
:18:41. > :18:45.Henderson, there was a discussion at the time we were talking about those
:18:46. > :18:51.on the run. Was it a price worth paying in order to secure peace, as
:18:52. > :19:00.some people have characterised it? You have to remember that when the
:19:01. > :19:11.so called on the runs was an issue, they were not granted amnesty. Their
:19:12. > :19:15.legal representatives sought assurances if they were wanted for
:19:16. > :19:21.questioning. This is not an amnesty. Who knows what this might lead to in
:19:22. > :19:26.the future? People who were granted permission to return to Northern
:19:27. > :19:28.Ireland, there is nothing to say at this stage they may not face charges
:19:29. > :19:32.in the future. I do very much. -- thank you very
:19:33. > :19:34.much. All week, we've been discussing the
:19:35. > :19:37.upcoming elections later this month. Today it's the turn of the Labour
:19:38. > :19:40.Party to launch their campaign. In a moment,
:19:41. > :19:42.we'll be speaking to Sadiq Khan, the shadow justice secretary
:19:43. > :19:45.but first, here's Giles with news Labour have announced policy details
:19:46. > :19:56.for private landlords. This morning,
:19:57. > :19:59.Ed Miliband said housing costs were "one of the biggest causes of the
:20:00. > :20:02.cost of living crisis", and warned that increasing numbers of people
:20:03. > :20:05.face "terrible insecurity" at the Here's how he wants to solve
:20:06. > :20:12.the problem. In a bid to prevent people being
:20:13. > :20:15.forced out of their homes by huge rent hikes,
:20:16. > :20:18.landlords will be restricted to one rent review a year and required by
:20:19. > :20:22.law to keep it below a set level. Details of how that ceiling would be
:20:23. > :20:26.calculated are yet to be resolved, but it's thought that it could be
:20:27. > :20:29.based on average rents Ed Miliband also wants to legislate
:20:30. > :20:33.to ban the charges imposed on tenants when they sign
:20:34. > :20:36.a rental agreement - these fees average around ?350 per person,
:20:37. > :20:40.but can go up to as much as ?500. Tenants would get
:20:41. > :20:44.a three-year deal as long as they paid the rent on time
:20:45. > :20:51.and were not guilty of anti-social Landlords could only serve them with
:20:52. > :20:57.two months' notice to leave with "good reason", such as rent arrears,
:20:58. > :21:07.anti-social behaviour or breaches of The Adam Smith Institute says it is
:21:08. > :21:19.one of the worst policy decisions We can speak to Sam Bowman,
:21:20. > :21:30.who's research director there. You have said that only bombing
:21:31. > :21:39.would be worse than rent control. Why do you say that? I
:21:40. > :21:41.the socialist Swedish economist. It is one of the few issues that unites
:21:42. > :21:47.left and right. is one of the few issues that unites
:21:48. > :21:51.in economics. 95% of is one of the few issues that unites
:21:52. > :21:55.think rent control is a bad idea. It amazes me that Labour is going
:21:56. > :22:00.think rent control is a bad idea. It this road. The proposals they are
:22:01. > :22:02.announcing and as bad as the controls we associate with absolute
:22:03. > :22:07.destruction of cities. It is more like petty vandalism. There was a
:22:08. > :22:08.destruction of cities. It is more study in the
:22:09. > :22:10.destruction of cities. It is more controlled buildings were 7% worse
:22:11. > :22:13.in terms of the comparable buildings that were not
:22:14. > :22:19.controlled. Three years later, they comparable buildings that were not
:22:20. > :22:23.were 13% worse. Rent controls like this have a bad
:22:24. > :22:23.were 13% worse. Rent controls like quality of property. They do not
:22:24. > :22:38.help renters either. quality of property. They do not
:22:39. > :22:44.rent control? It is quality of property. They do not
:22:45. > :22:47.problem. The only way this can help renters is if
:22:48. > :22:54.problem. The only way this can help quickly. Landlords will price in the
:22:55. > :22:57.expected rising rents. Renters do gain if rent increase faster than
:22:58. > :23:04.people anticipate. They lose if rents fall or do not increase
:23:05. > :23:11.quickly. It is potluck for renters. It ties renters into a location.
:23:12. > :23:15.Because landlords have to increase rents significantly, people in
:23:16. > :23:22.relatively low places, relatively cheaper places, are discouraged and
:23:23. > :23:27.find it harder to move around. David Blanchflower, the Economist, has
:23:28. > :23:31.done quite a lot of work on this. People find it harder to move around
:23:32. > :23:37.25 jobs. I worry that this kind of proposal, even though it sounds
:23:38. > :23:40.nice, will renters. And it will probably reduce supply and even
:23:41. > :23:46.increase unemployment. Across the board we have to listen to
:23:47. > :23:48.economists and look at the evidence. They give very much.
:23:49. > :23:51.And we're joined from the Labour campaign launch in Redbridge
:23:52. > :24:03.by Sadiq Khan. Is this another policy announcement by Labour to
:24:04. > :24:07.intervene in the market where you think it has failed? Is an example
:24:08. > :24:12.of us understanding the cost of living crisis people are facing and
:24:13. > :24:18.having the solutions. Nine million people in this country rent from
:24:19. > :24:21.private landlords. 2 million children live in private
:24:22. > :24:25.accommodation. One of the big problems I see is that the
:24:26. > :24:30.uncertainty, instability in relation to how long they have been in this
:24:31. > :24:33.property. Also, no idea of how to plan because the landlord could
:24:34. > :24:41.raise the rent overnight. What this is saying is you know in advance
:24:42. > :24:47.what the rent will be. After six months, you can have up to three
:24:48. > :24:50.years. You can properly plan. Your children are not plucked out of
:24:51. > :24:53.their schools. You know what the rent will be over the next period.
:24:54. > :24:58.There is the opportunity to review it upwards or downwards. It will be
:24:59. > :25:03.up to a maximum of a ceiling, which means both sides know what the rent
:25:04. > :25:10.will be. Had either any idea what that CAP should be? We are going to
:25:11. > :25:14.work with industry to make sure we come up with a ceiling that works
:25:15. > :25:19.for all parties. We have seen in Ireland where they introduced a
:25:20. > :25:27.ceiling and long-term tenancy, more properties becoming available. An
:25:28. > :25:30.increase. What we're going to do is, over the next period, not impose
:25:31. > :25:35.what the rent should be, work the industry so that the tenant and
:25:36. > :25:41.landlords in cases can agree the rent. And see the best way of going
:25:42. > :25:46.forward. How will that change anything that exists at the moment?
:25:47. > :25:52.Landlords can actually break their tenancy agreement at any point.
:25:53. > :25:57.Refurbishing the property. If there is a breach of the tenancy
:25:58. > :26:01.agreement. In other words, at any point, the landlords, under your
:26:02. > :26:07.supposedly new rent controls, can actually just in the tenancy. There
:26:08. > :26:18.will be no more security of tenure. No, that's wrong. The current
:26:19. > :26:23.position is a landlord gives a tenant a tenancy of six months. It
:26:24. > :26:27.can sometimes be 12 months. During that time, landlords can terminate
:26:28. > :26:30.the agreement. At the end of that six months or 12 months, if the
:26:31. > :26:43.landlord wants the tenants to carry on, can increase the rent. What we
:26:44. > :26:46.are saying is during that three years, a landlord can kick you out
:26:47. > :26:50.unless you have not paid your rent or there has been anti-social
:26:51. > :26:56.behaviour. Let's say for example the landlord wants to move back into the
:26:57. > :27:01.home for his family. Yes, all the exemptions I have just given you.
:27:02. > :27:09.No. At the moment a landlord can get rid of you with no reason at all.
:27:10. > :27:14.This is protection for the tenant. They will not be paying this
:27:15. > :27:19.whopping upfront free -- fee to the letting agents. The most pressing
:27:20. > :27:22.problem is housing supply and housing stock. How will this
:27:23. > :27:32.increase housing supply? It will bring it down, want it? Back in
:27:33. > :27:36.September, October, when Ed Miliband announced our plans to build 200,000
:27:37. > :27:43.houses a year by the end of the next Labour government, we also said we
:27:44. > :27:50.would give the power to use it or lose it. To give planning
:27:51. > :27:56.authorities the opportunity. We are increasing the supply side of
:27:57. > :27:58.things. 200,000 houses a year and next Labour government. The
:27:59. > :28:01.important announcement today is addressing the issue of the 9
:28:02. > :28:06.million people who rent from private landlords, concerned about the
:28:07. > :28:10.length of their tenure, the amount of rent they pay and being ripped
:28:11. > :28:15.off by letting agents. Charles Moore, is this a good idea, when
:28:16. > :28:18.many people feel rents have spiralled out of control and tenants
:28:19. > :28:31.do not have much power over rogue landlords? No,, the dearth of
:28:32. > :28:35.supply. You quite rightly raise the fundamental issue behind all of
:28:36. > :28:40.this. The shortage of housing stock. There were fewer than 150,000 houses
:28:41. > :28:44.being built a year. Our population is growing in volume terms more than
:28:45. > :28:52.it has ever grown in the whole of its history. We probably need about
:28:53. > :28:59.300,000 houses. Labour-saving will address that problem. Yes, but they
:29:00. > :29:02.are not going to do so radically. Labour seem to be in a better
:29:03. > :29:06.position to do this than the Tories. They should abolish the green belt.
:29:07. > :29:10.The green belt is a massive restriction on housing where it is
:29:11. > :29:17.needed. More land in Surrey is given over to golf courses than houses. I
:29:18. > :29:22.know the viewers in Surrey will be annoyed with me for saying that. But
:29:23. > :29:24.it is a very important point. The next generation cannot get on the
:29:25. > :29:29.housing ladder because of the cost of housing. This policy is damaging
:29:30. > :29:33.that. They should be addressing the real issue. Lets just find out
:29:34. > :29:37.briefly how popular this might be. To find out how popular this might
:29:38. > :29:49.be we can speak now to Gideon Labour is sending a mixed message?
:29:50. > :29:54.Labour is all ready doing well among renters. I don't think this policy
:29:55. > :29:57.will harm them. Whether it will change anybody's mind about voting
:29:58. > :30:01.for them, that is a different matter. There are many other things
:30:02. > :30:05.people are concerned about. I know that Labour people are worried about
:30:06. > :30:10.this. Their opponents are banking on that. How much of a problem is Ed
:30:11. > :30:16.Miliband? It is certainly one of the things for Labour to be worried
:30:17. > :30:21.about. Ed Miliband's ratings are not as high, for example, as David
:30:22. > :30:30.Cameron's work or Tony Blair's word before they won elections. -- work.
:30:31. > :30:34.They are still giving Labour lead in our most recent political monitor
:30:35. > :30:38.earlier this month. Labour's lead was in line with its average over
:30:39. > :30:43.the last year of about six points. Not quite as high as they were
:30:44. > :30:50.getting just after the shambles in 2012. It is still enough to give
:30:51. > :30:59.them a majority. Let's get reaction from Sadiq Khan. Let's talk about
:31:00. > :31:04.the elections. Whether or not this policy on rent controls does
:31:05. > :31:11.anything towards the elections, why is Labour not in the lead according
:31:12. > :31:15.to the polls? Firstly, we have unveiled a cost of living contracts
:31:16. > :31:19.which has ten points which will address the cost of living crisis
:31:20. > :31:23.that people face. This policy announcement is one of the ten. In
:31:24. > :31:27.relation to the elections of May the 22nd, not only do we have important
:31:28. > :31:34.European elections, but we have council elections as well. In London
:31:35. > :31:41.as well as around the country. People should member that distrust
:31:42. > :31:49.across the board has never been greater. From a position where
:31:50. > :31:52.Labour Party got the second worst results in history, Ed Miliband has
:31:53. > :31:56.brought us back into the ballpark. People have asked us questions about
:31:57. > :32:01.what we would do and we have a healthy lead. Over the next 22 days
:32:02. > :32:04.in the context of European elections and the council elections, we have
:32:05. > :32:10.to persuade the British public that we are the one-party that gets the
:32:11. > :32:13.cost of living crisis, and we are the one party with the solutions.
:32:14. > :32:21.The general election is for people to ask the question in May 2015, and
:32:22. > :32:24.my better off than I was in May 2010 and will my children be better off
:32:25. > :32:28.in the future with the Tory led government? Who has the vision for
:32:29. > :32:33.our country? Who can address the challenges for today and tomorrow?
:32:34. > :32:36.You yourself said in terms of the three main parties, you claim you
:32:37. > :32:40.are the ones dealing with the cost of living crisis, the narrative that
:32:41. > :32:44.Labour has been promoting. But why are UKIP topping the poll in the
:32:45. > :32:51.European election? You are the opposition. You say you have a five
:32:52. > :33:00.point lead ahead of the Tories. Why are you 11 points behind UKIP? We
:33:01. > :33:04.have to accept that there is an anti-politics feeling. Whenever you
:33:05. > :33:07.do a public platform on politics programme like Question Time Kaunda
:33:08. > :33:12.nonpolitician gets the biggest round of applause. As politicians, we are
:33:13. > :33:16.not appearing to connect the British public. I take on the chin the
:33:17. > :33:21.criticism of us appearing to be not in touch with the British public. If
:33:22. > :33:24.you are not one of the mainstream parties and you give the impression
:33:25. > :33:28.of being anti-politics and not the establishment, the public wants to
:33:29. > :33:33.punish the mainstream parties by voting for the nonmainstream
:33:34. > :33:39.political party. I would say, look at UKIP's policies on the NHS or the
:33:40. > :33:43.national minimum wage or other issues, and ask yourself the
:33:44. > :33:47.question, before you protest by voting for UKIP, whether you really
:33:48. > :33:53.want them winning. But was it a good strategy painting some people in
:33:54. > :33:57.UKIP as a party of racists? Do you agree that that has backfired? When
:33:58. > :34:02.there has been that scrutiny of UKIP, their poll ratings have gone
:34:03. > :34:09.up. As far as the comments made by the UKIP Leticia and about --
:34:10. > :34:13.politician about Lenny Henry, they were racist. We should not hold back
:34:14. > :34:19.on that. I have never said Nigel Farage or UKIP are racist. Some of
:34:20. > :34:23.the concerns they are seeking to claim that it for our concerns the
:34:24. > :34:26.British public have. We have to highlight the consequences of their
:34:27. > :34:31.policies and remind the British public of what their policies are
:34:32. > :34:36.and recognise that there was a consequence of voting for a party
:34:37. > :34:40.like UKIP. Charles Moore, the cost of living narrative has had
:34:41. > :34:44.resonance. It has struck a chord, which is why Labour are continuing
:34:45. > :34:49.to promote it and probably will do into the next election, particularly
:34:50. > :34:54.that phrase, will you be better off in 2015 on election day than in
:34:55. > :35:02.2010. That is the beginning, but it is not enough. Labour is making a
:35:03. > :35:06.strategic error, the same error they made in the 1980s, which is simply
:35:07. > :35:11.to say how awful the other lot are, and identify certain groups that
:35:12. > :35:18.represent the awfulness, like greedy bankers and landlords. The voter has
:35:19. > :35:24.to decide, OK, that is bad, but how are you going to be better? Labour
:35:25. > :35:28.have got what the Blairites called a core vote strategy, which is a
:35:29. > :35:35.rotten idea. You have to reach out and develop, and Labour has not been
:35:36. > :35:36.able to discuss its past, and therefore it has not been able to
:35:37. > :35:39.project its future. Now is Britain
:35:40. > :35:42.a Christian country or not? Fewer than one in ten
:35:43. > :35:44.of us go to church, and recent research shows that most
:35:45. > :35:47.people are largely indifferent to However, David Cameron thinks
:35:48. > :35:51.Britain is - although his comments have got rather a lot
:35:52. > :35:54.of people hot under the collar. And we're joined now by
:35:55. > :36:03.Andrew Copson, Chief Executive I like to keep an eye on what is
:36:04. > :36:08.going on in Westminster, reading weighty tomes like a prospect
:36:09. > :36:12.magazine, even this rather nerdy offering from Brussels. Until this
:36:13. > :36:18.week, I have never read this, the Church Times. It has been in
:36:19. > :36:22.publication since 1863. There was an article here the other week from the
:36:23. > :36:25.prime minister which has got people thinking, David Cameron
:36:26. > :36:30.pontificating about the Church of England, its role in society. If you
:36:31. > :36:34.sleep in the garage, does that make you a car? Can you be a Christian
:36:35. > :36:39.without going to church? Does that wedding I went to about six months
:36:40. > :36:45.ago Count? And it is not just the prime minister who sparked this
:36:46. > :36:50.discussion. It is difficult to be a Christian today, isn't it? In Syria,
:36:51. > :36:56.for instance, Iraq, certainly Egypt, but also sometimes here in Hackney.
:36:57. > :36:59.Why is Islam so much more popular? This BBC sitcom has been exploring
:37:00. > :37:06.similar ground, but despite their often being more seats in church
:37:07. > :37:09.than bottoms on them, the CRV is the established Church of England. The
:37:10. > :37:13.Queen is head of state and supreme Governor of the Church of England.
:37:14. > :37:16.This is Lambeth palace, the home of the Archbishop of Canterbury, at
:37:17. > :37:20.least when he is not in Canterbury. You get the sense of the glue that
:37:21. > :37:23.binds the Church of England to Parliament and the state when you
:37:24. > :37:26.take a look across the River Thames and see a building that is rather
:37:27. > :37:32.familiar, the palace of Westminster, home to 26 Lord
:37:33. > :37:36.spiritual, as they are known, bishops who have a seat in the upper
:37:37. > :37:40.house. The Deputy Prime Minister Nick Legg, an atheist,
:37:41. > :37:42.house. The Deputy Prime Minister junking the connection between the
:37:43. > :37:45.church of England and the state. It has happened for the judge of Wales
:37:46. > :37:51.and the Church of Scotland yonks ago. Not easy, though, says this
:37:52. > :37:54.cues and politics watcher. The establishment is a particular
:37:55. > :37:58.example of the classic British fudge. It is where we come from
:37:59. > :38:02.historically and it goes very deep. We should not underestimate the
:38:03. > :38:06.constitutional complexity of unpacking it. That building behind
:38:07. > :38:11.the tree is Westminster Abbey, and the bloke I am talking to standing
:38:12. > :38:16.between it and Parliament is... Have a guess? I am the link between
:38:17. > :38:19.Parliament and the Church of England. It is a Crown appointment,
:38:20. > :38:25.so I am accountable neither to the Archbishop nor to the prime
:38:26. > :38:31.minister. I am accountable to the Crown. I see the chancellor to ask
:38:32. > :38:34.for more money for cathedrals and negotiate with ministers over the
:38:35. > :38:47.details of same-sex marriages are through to the details with
:38:48. > :38:51.ministers in DEFRA over the defecating habits of mammals. So,
:38:52. > :38:56.plenty to chew on. We are joined now by Andrew Cobbs
:38:57. > :39:01.on, the chief executive of the Humanist Association. Andrew, you
:39:02. > :39:04.wrote the letter responding to David Cameron's comments on Christianity,
:39:05. > :39:08.saying they would foster alienation. Why? The letter said
:39:09. > :39:12.that repeated claims that Britain is a Christian country ignored the fact
:39:13. > :39:15.that we are more complicated in terms of the diversity of beliefs
:39:16. > :39:20.and compensated in terms of the past as well and the influences that made
:39:21. > :39:27.us a country we are. Constant refrains about us being a Christian
:39:28. > :39:31.country would alienate some. I am British and my family have been
:39:32. > :39:36.British or hundreds of years, but I am not Christian and my are not.
:39:37. > :39:41.Constant characterisation of our country as Christian something we
:39:42. > :39:48.feel excluded from. It was the first time I heard David Cameron said it
:39:49. > :39:54.in such a public way. It would be -- do you agree that Britain Broadley
:39:55. > :39:59.is a Christian country? He has been saying it more recently in the --
:40:00. > :40:04.more frequently. It depends what you mean by Christian country. Everyone
:40:05. > :40:08.who says so probably means something different. It is a description of
:40:09. > :40:12.fact in terms of the established country, rather than saying
:40:13. > :40:15.everybody is Christian. The Church of England has an established
:40:16. > :40:22.church, but the church was disestablished in Ireland and Wales,
:40:23. > :40:26.so it is not even true in the narrow sense of Britain. It is true in
:40:27. > :40:30.England, but that is not saying much. If you bring it into politics,
:40:31. > :40:35.the risk is that you then bring religion into politics. But it is
:40:36. > :40:38.not bringing it into politics, because it is an important cultural
:40:39. > :40:42.fact which makes a great difference to our society. In many countries,
:40:43. > :40:47.it happens in the Muslim world today, religion causes people to
:40:48. > :40:51.kill one another. In England and Britain to a lesser extent, we have
:40:52. > :40:56.found a solution to this. We had a settlement, which meant that we
:40:57. > :41:01.brought peace between the warring sects to a much greater degree than
:41:02. > :41:04.most countries. This was an important political and cultural
:41:05. > :41:09.achievement. So far from being divisive, it is actually unifying.
:41:10. > :41:13.All the other denominations in this country are happy with the setup of
:41:14. > :41:17.the Church of England, because they see it as essentially good-natured
:41:18. > :41:21.and peaceful and representing the idea of faith in modern society. I
:41:22. > :41:26.think the British public respond well to that. Do they, or do they
:41:27. > :41:30.just thought of accepted in a benign way? There is a principle of the
:41:31. > :41:35.Netherlands and historical continuity, and it has to do with
:41:36. > :41:38.the monarchy. It is true to say that the British public is largely
:41:39. > :41:43.indifferent to the establishment, but they don't like the fruits of
:41:44. > :41:46.establishment. There is overwhelming public opposition when people are
:41:47. > :41:50.polled to say they do not want bishops in the House of Lords. They
:41:51. > :41:54.do not want to screw in a three faith -based admissions into state
:41:55. > :42:01.schools. They do not want religion coming into politics. So although
:42:02. > :42:07.people might be indifferent to the establishment, in policy terms, they
:42:08. > :42:12.are strongly opposed. Would you like to unpick the constitutional link?
:42:13. > :42:17.Yes. I think it is necessary if we are to move forward. Accepting that
:42:18. > :42:20.the Church of England as in times been a benign institution that has
:42:21. > :42:24.solved a lot of problems, now when we look forward, it is unsustainable
:42:25. > :42:29.to have as a national church and institution with fewer than 20% of
:42:30. > :42:33.people as its members. In a diverse country, we need a better secular
:42:34. > :42:39.sector. If you do that, as Shakespeare said, you will tune that
:42:40. > :42:41.string and there will be a massive battle between unbelievers,
:42:42. > :42:48.different faiths, Muslims, Christians, fundamentalists and so
:42:49. > :42:57.on. There would be a fight for control. It seems to me that the big
:42:58. > :43:00.worry about the established church is, if anything from a Christian
:43:01. > :43:06.band of you, because it is not very Christian. Whereas for the general
:43:07. > :43:11.purposes of wider society, it is a clear benefit. Andrew would be one
:43:12. > :43:14.of the first to suffer if we got rid of things, because then the battle
:43:15. > :43:22.would really start. I think it would be a good observation to have in a
:43:23. > :43:26.modern democracy. Just let me intrude. I wonder whether there is a
:43:27. > :43:31.contagion among strategists to turn to their politicians and say, let's
:43:32. > :43:34.do the Alastair Campbell thing and just not do God. I don't think
:43:35. > :43:38.politicians should do God, Bob but they should be the place of religion
:43:39. > :43:42.in British culture and that is what David Cameron was doing. He was not
:43:43. > :43:46.saying, I am better than you because I am a Christian. But one of the
:43:47. > :43:53.recent examples has been the furore over gay marriage. And he was trying
:43:54. > :43:59.to make up for that because he made such a mess of it. He was trying to
:44:00. > :44:08.get back in with the voters. Is that how you see it? Only do God when you
:44:09. > :44:12.need to do God. I think what he said was consistent with what he has said
:44:13. > :44:17.in the past. He was genuine, but wrong, I think. He was wrong in
:44:18. > :44:21.calling for religious organisations to play a larger part in public
:44:22. > :44:28.life. He was wrong in saying Britain is and should be a Christian country
:44:29. > :44:31.and should promote that fact. It is a difficult time of transition in
:44:32. > :44:35.this country in religion and belief terms. People are not Christian in
:44:36. > :44:39.the way they were. We have got other religions. It is not surprising that
:44:40. > :44:43.people cling to the past, just because people say in public, like
:44:44. > :44:49.the Muslim Council of Britain saying it is good that we are a Christian
:44:50. > :44:53.country, it does not mean they think that in private. They may just be
:44:54. > :44:57.sucking up to power. Do you agree that being Christian does not
:44:58. > :45:01.necessarily mean going to church? The numbers have been bundling and
:45:02. > :45:08.there would not be much statistical evidence to back that up. Sure. We
:45:09. > :45:12.have to think about what happens when all of this decline is. All of
:45:13. > :45:16.the instincts in the health service and childcare or education that come
:45:17. > :45:21.from Christianity would be rude, and it is a grim prospect. I am glad
:45:22. > :45:25.David Cameron is drawing attention to that. I don't think there is any
:45:26. > :45:29.link between orality and religion in this country. We would be fine.
:45:30. > :45:34.Does the British economy depend on it or not?
:45:35. > :45:37.Is it fundamentally flawed, and if it is, what can be done?
:45:38. > :45:44.In a moment we'll be talking to two economists,
:45:45. > :45:47.both of whom have written books about that very subject.
:45:48. > :46:00.Cut the umbilical cord that links the lawmakers and the people and you
:46:01. > :46:07.destroy the stability of this country. You are asking the British
:46:08. > :46:18.people now to make a terribly disruptive decision. We have not
:46:19. > :46:21.successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain
:46:22. > :46:29.only to see them reimpose at a European level. -- reimposed. I
:46:30. > :46:34.believe in Europe as a political project. I believe in Europe with a
:46:35. > :46:39.strong and caring social I mentioned. I would never accept a
:46:40. > :46:49.Europe that was simply an economic market. A real choice between
:46:50. > :46:53.leaving or being part of a new settlement in which Britain shakes
:46:54. > :46:58.and respect the rules of the European market but is protected by
:46:59. > :47:03.fair safeguards and free of the spurious regulation that damages
:47:04. > :47:07.Europe's competitiveness. In an uncertain world there is strength in
:47:08. > :47:12.numbers. That is why we remain in the European Union. Even if the
:47:13. > :47:13.common market may have given them a good idea 40 years ago,
:47:14. > :47:16.common market may have given them a good idea 40 years it is hopelessly
:47:17. > :47:25.out of the bed now. Useful debate, I hope.
:47:26. > :47:34.Let's talk to Roger Bootle. And I'm joined now by the economist,
:47:35. > :47:38.Roger Bootle, who has written the book, The Trouble With Europe,
:47:39. > :47:41.and by Phillipe Legrain, former economic advisor to the President
:47:42. > :47:55.of the European Commission. Why you think Europe is not working?
:47:56. > :47:58.I think it went wrong at the beginning. The pursuit of ever
:47:59. > :48:02.closer union. It is not what the people of this country wanted. It is
:48:03. > :48:08.not what a lot of people in Europe want. Throughout European history,
:48:09. > :48:11.our best times have actually been in the nation states of Europe have
:48:12. > :48:16.competed with one another. I don't think we have it in us to be part of
:48:17. > :48:20.some unified political or economic entity. I want to see some
:48:21. > :48:26.overarching European unit that would bring friendliness, secure trade,
:48:27. > :48:29.perhaps have a foreign or defence aspect, but that does not mean
:48:30. > :48:35.cobbling together these independent nations. Do you agree with that? Is
:48:36. > :48:42.it, as we have often heard, the architects at the beginning wanting
:48:43. > :48:47.something to work a certain way and work out the economic details later?
:48:48. > :48:53.Think the euro has been a huge success. Spreading peace, stability
:48:54. > :49:00.and prosperity around the poverty -- continent. At the same time, during
:49:01. > :49:04.the crisis government-owned institutions have made big mistakes.
:49:05. > :49:09.We are suffering the consequences. Europe needs to change. Isn't the
:49:10. > :49:16.economic success of those units more down to the states themselves than
:49:17. > :49:19.some European conglomerate? May be most people around this table are
:49:20. > :49:27.free traders. The common market is the freest trade you have in the
:49:28. > :49:30.world. People invest in this country in order to sell cars to the rest of
:49:31. > :49:38.Europe. The economic benefits are very clear. If we were out of that
:49:39. > :49:42.we would not have those benefits? Clearly, if you look at a global
:49:43. > :49:48.level, the movement towards free trade has stalled. We would be
:49:49. > :49:58.reduced to negotiating agreements bilaterally and on our Rome we would
:49:59. > :50:04.have much less clout than together. -- on our own. As part of the EU you
:50:05. > :50:12.can negotiate as equals. There was a slight shaking your head there! It
:50:13. > :50:20.was not slight! I do think the EU has contributed a lot. I do not hate
:50:21. > :50:25.everything to do with the EU. It is interesting though that the respect
:50:26. > :50:29.in which it has contributed a lot was not envisage that the start, and
:50:30. > :50:38.nothing to do whatsoever with what they were aiming for. That is as a
:50:39. > :50:44.receiving house for countries in the Eastern bloc. That is one thing. If
:50:45. > :50:49.we move to the other questions, we did not need that treatment, by the
:50:50. > :50:56.way. Moved to the question of prosperity. I will eat don't agree
:50:57. > :51:00.at all with what Philip has said. European countries has -- have been
:51:01. > :51:04.getting richer. So is everybody else around the world. The Norwegians,
:51:05. > :51:15.the Australians, the Indians, the Chinese. Britain joined the European
:51:16. > :51:20.Union because politicians felt the economy was failing outside the EU.
:51:21. > :51:23.In any case, I am sure you believe in free trade. If you do, it is
:51:24. > :51:29.rather perverse to downplay the benefits of the single market just
:51:30. > :51:31.because it is European. If you do not like Europe, be honest about it
:51:32. > :51:40.but don't try to justify a political view on economic grounds. The
:51:41. > :51:43.problem about the EU is that it continues to move, and it has done
:51:44. > :51:49.from the beginning, in a single direction. It is of ever closer
:51:50. > :51:55.union. This is unsustainable for the continent. It is very bad for
:51:56. > :52:00.British independence and freedom. The creation of the euro, which is
:52:01. > :52:06.by far the strongest version of that -- that idea, has been the most
:52:07. > :52:15.disastrous. It has created massive unemployment and poverty in southern
:52:16. > :52:33.Europe, and huge political tension. It is also bringing about exactly
:52:34. > :52:45.what it was supposed to avoid, the total economic dominance of Europe
:52:46. > :52:57.by Germany. When you look at that process, why should you have two
:52:58. > :53:10.accept everything on the menu? Two different types are emerging. The
:53:11. > :53:16.euro zone and the non-Eurozone. Something should be made out of that
:53:17. > :53:19.without sleep -- playing a very leading role in the non-Eurozone.
:53:20. > :53:21.Isn't the problem in saying that we're going to reform it is
:53:22. > :53:22.something that cannot be pulled off? And then you're left with an
:53:23. > :53:25.extreme. Out, with with the costs that would bring, or you are in with
:53:26. > :53:27.hoping that the same people involved before would somehow be able to
:53:28. > :53:30.bring about reforms? There are reforms that can be done, as long as
:53:31. > :53:34.they are not special treatment for one country. You can move forward
:53:35. > :53:36.with the single market in services. You can have decentralisation. Of
:53:37. > :53:38.course the European Union can change. Have those people who do one
:53:39. > :53:45.died been ambiguous about what it would cost? There have been umpteen
:53:46. > :53:52.attempts to look into this. They come up with wildly different
:53:53. > :53:57.numbers. I myself think it is so uncertain with regard to the
:53:58. > :54:00.important things, which are not to do with the budget. The really
:54:01. > :54:03.important thing I think is the extent of further regulation from
:54:04. > :54:08.Europe. The extent to which the European Union carries on doing what
:54:09. > :54:12.it has done so far, moving in one direction. So you don't sign up to a
:54:13. > :54:16.particular set of circumstances, you sign up to it process. What sort of
:54:17. > :54:20.trade relationships we could negotiate with Europe and the rest
:54:21. > :54:26.of the world. Which regulations would you first get rid of? When I
:54:27. > :54:32.hear people say they are suffering, which once? Social and employment
:54:33. > :54:37.legislation, for a start. It is not true to say that everything that is
:54:38. > :54:43.a problem in this country stems from the EU. A lot of the regulations are
:54:44. > :54:45.national regulations. It is a political fantasy to think that
:54:46. > :54:50.Britain would be a different country had left. The demand for social
:54:51. > :54:55.employment legislation comes just as much from voters in this country as
:54:56. > :54:57.it does from the EU. Yes, but you can get rid of the people who impose
:54:58. > :55:01.it. . Now it's May Day today, which means
:55:02. > :55:05.people up and down the country will Old customs don't die, they just
:55:06. > :55:44.fade away. I'm joined now by Oliver New from
:55:45. > :55:47.left unity, organising a May Day march through central London, and by
:55:48. > :55:53.Sir Bob Russell, a Liberal Democrat MP. He thinks St George's Day should
:55:54. > :55:58.be a national holiday. Oliver, people think of May Day and they
:55:59. > :56:01.think of maypoles and flowers. Have people forgotten the origins? I
:56:02. > :56:09.don't think people do think about that. May Day is International
:56:10. > :56:13.workers Day. Happy May Day. Left unity, a brand-new political party,
:56:14. > :56:17.did not organise the march through London. It is organised every year.
:56:18. > :56:25.It has been celebrated for 150 years. If you cross the Channel, it
:56:26. > :56:29.is a public holiday in France. And it is a public holiday in 80
:56:30. > :56:33.countries, celebrating workers and their contribution. I think it is a
:56:34. > :56:38.really important day and we should do more to celebrate it. Do you
:56:39. > :56:45.think people remember it is a Labor Day? I agree with much of what has
:56:46. > :56:49.been set. It is a European is not a worldwide day of celebration for
:56:50. > :56:55.workers. In fact, I remember when the May Day bank holiday was brought
:56:56. > :57:01.in, albeit on a Monday. I want to reassert Englishness with St
:57:02. > :57:05.George's Day. I think St George's Day should be, if not the day
:57:06. > :57:10.itself, then certainly been a wrist Monday, should be a bank holiday.
:57:11. > :57:16.Had there are too many bank holidays within may? Across the year, the
:57:17. > :57:19.United Kingdom has fewer public holidays than virtually any other
:57:20. > :57:23.country in Europe. We would be catching up if we had an additional
:57:24. > :57:34.one friend lent. Does it matter what the origins are? Don't people just
:57:35. > :57:37.think, I've got a day off work? ! Some people think that. The amount
:57:38. > :57:42.of stress there is in workplaces at the moment, partly because of the
:57:43. > :57:47.economic crisis, the amount of stress is enormous. I think next
:57:48. > :57:50.couple of days would probably be good for productivity as well as for
:57:51. > :57:57.all of us. Charles, what about a bank holiday and October? With the
:57:58. > :58:01.workers Day, it seems to be inappropriate. It seems to me we
:58:02. > :58:06.should all be working! I think bank holidays are out of date. They are
:58:07. > :58:11.so inflexible. I agree with what Oliver has said about the stresses
:58:12. > :58:15.of work. This seems to be massive stresses with bank holidays to do
:58:16. > :58:19.with traffic and so on. It would be better if people had transferable
:58:20. > :58:24.holidays that they would take. We don't all have to be doing something
:58:25. > :58:34.of the same time. You are not advocating for fewer holidays? ! It
:58:35. > :58:38.day when the whole country comes together is a day for celebration.
:58:39. > :58:42.May Day or St George's Day. Let the English have their own day of
:58:43. > :58:46.celebration. These chairs, everything here, was made by
:58:47. > :58:56.workers, not bankers, not politicians. Let's celebrate that on
:58:57. > :58:59.May Day. That is it. Thank you to all our guests. Buy buy. -- goodbye.