:00:37. > :00:39.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to The Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:45.MPs have sharply criticised plans to allow Her Majesty's Revenue
:00:46. > :00:47.and Customs to recover money directly from people's bank accounts
:00:48. > :00:50.to pay tax bills. The Commons Treasury Committee says
:00:51. > :00:57.it is very concerned because tax officials have
:00:58. > :01:00.a history of making mistakes. Last time round,
:01:01. > :01:03.the BNP were the talk of the town. This time they look like they are
:01:04. > :01:15.heading for electoral oblivion. We will be talking to Nick Griffin.
:01:16. > :01:19.Is this Labour's worst party election broadcast?
:01:20. > :01:22.It has divided the membership. Tune in for analysis of the
:01:23. > :01:27."UNcredible shrinking man". And we will be launching
:01:28. > :01:29.The Daily Politics political wheel. Have I Got News For You,
:01:30. > :01:34.eat your heart out. Public service broadcasting at its
:01:35. > :01:46.finest. All that in the next hour.
:01:47. > :01:49.With us for the duration, two shy retiring types who do not
:01:50. > :01:51.know what they think. Champion of the working class,
:01:52. > :01:52.keen environmentalist, strident feminist, James Delingpole.
:01:53. > :01:57.And libertarian, climate change sceptic, Owen Jones.
:01:58. > :02:07.I may have got at the wrong way round, but you get the general...
:02:08. > :02:10.Sold out already. Have not even started and they are off!
:02:11. > :02:13.climate change sceptic, Owen Jones. First, a taxing issue.
:02:14. > :02:15.In the budget in March, told the George Osborne handed
:02:16. > :02:18.officials, some would say, draconian new powers to seize unpaid
:02:19. > :02:20.taxes from the private bank accounts of thousands of ordinary people.
:02:21. > :02:25.It was not commented on too much at the time.
:02:26. > :02:27.of thousands of ordinary people. Today MPs have raised
:02:28. > :02:30.the alarm. They fear officials at
:02:31. > :02:33.Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs could get their sums wrong and raid
:02:34. > :02:35.the accounts of innocent people. And unsuspecting wives or husbands
:02:36. > :02:40.could lose out because of an errant spouse.
:02:41. > :02:45.Here is Mr Osborne announcing the policy in the House of Commons.
:02:46. > :02:49.Here is Mr Osborne announcing the policy Public tolerance for
:02:50. > :02:53.those who do not pay their fair share of apres to long ago. But we
:02:54. > :02:58.had to wait for this government and there was proper action --
:02:59. > :03:04.evaporated long ago. Today we go further. I am increasing the budget
:03:05. > :03:08.to tackle noncompliance. We will block transfers of profits between
:03:09. > :03:14.companies within groups to avoid tax. We will increase the recovery
:03:15. > :03:22.of debt for those of sufficient earnings. We will give HMRC powers
:03:23. > :03:27.to collect from bank accounts like most other Western countries. That
:03:28. > :03:30.was the bit at the end, people who had refused to pay tax, the
:03:31. > :03:32.was the bit at the end, people who Government could go into their bank
:03:33. > :03:37.accounts. In thes have said Government could go into their bank
:03:38. > :03:42.make a mistake. Let me start with the principle. If you have not paid
:03:43. > :03:47.your tax and you have been asked to repeatedly, is it right in principle
:03:48. > :03:51.your tax and you have been asked to HMRC should be able to go into your
:03:52. > :03:56.bank account? No. Tax avoidance is worth ?25
:03:57. > :04:01.bank account? No. Tax avoidance is this lack of...
:04:02. > :04:02.bank account? No. Tax avoidance is has a long track record of making
:04:03. > :04:07.mistakes. has a long track record of making
:04:08. > :04:11.and balances, there is huge scope has a long track record of making
:04:12. > :04:15.with people struggling and taking money away when they are already
:04:16. > :04:18.struggling. We need to tackle the fact HMRC is not properly resourced.
:04:19. > :04:24.We need to talk about the revolving door between the big four
:04:25. > :04:29.accountancy firms who draw up tax laws and go to their clients and
:04:30. > :04:34.tell them how to avoid them. The man who used to be head of HMIC is now
:04:35. > :04:41.working for Deloitte. The likes of Amazon and global chilly Google do
:04:42. > :04:47.not pay their taxes. -- and Google. The government needs an anti-tax
:04:48. > :04:51.avoidance bill. It is an illiberal measure. I am liking Owen Jones
:04:52. > :05:09.more. I think that this is measure. I am liking Owen Jones
:05:10. > :05:11.Osborne trying to outflank Labour on big government vindictiveness. I
:05:12. > :05:17.commend a piece big government vindictiveness. I
:05:18. > :05:20.written by a man at the Adam Smith Institute today. There is
:05:21. > :05:20.written by a man at the Adam Smith principle going back 800 years to
:05:21. > :05:26.the principle going back 800 years to
:05:27. > :05:32.cannot take things from you without common consent. It has got to go
:05:33. > :05:35.cannot take things from you without account and get the money out
:05:36. > :05:39.regardless, particularly given that a lot of the people who are
:05:40. > :05:44.reluctant to pay their taxes to HMRC, it may be for good reasons.
:05:45. > :05:47.Maybe their accountants have advised them that they have grounds and it
:05:48. > :05:55.should be decided by the courts, not by HMRC. It would go in front of the
:05:56. > :06:00.tax commissioners. It would go through due process. This is a
:06:01. > :06:04.slippery slope. We will see a lot of this in the coming years,
:06:05. > :06:08.governments trying to confiscate money by whatever means possible. I
:06:09. > :06:14.am going to agree with James Delingpole again. Help me! There is
:06:15. > :06:19.a problem of due process. HMRC are trying to sell the personal details
:06:20. > :06:23.of millions of taxpayers at the moment. There is a petition to try
:06:24. > :06:28.to stop it. We need the clamp-down on tax avoidance. Let us have due
:06:29. > :06:34.process to confiscate money where people are refusing to pay tax. They
:06:35. > :06:39.have to pay tax. Of course. But it is the between nature of what is
:06:40. > :06:43.proposed. No one objects to people paying the taxes. We need far more
:06:44. > :06:46.action on that. Let me move on before they start cuddling each
:06:47. > :06:50.other in this outbreak of consensus here.
:06:51. > :06:53.the policy in the House of Commons. Now, is this the worst party
:06:54. > :06:56.political broadcast ever? No, of course it's not.
:06:57. > :06:58.We have seen an awful lot of election broadcasts here at
:06:59. > :07:01.The Daily Politics. Let me tell you,
:07:02. > :07:03.the bar is not high. But Labour's latest film is
:07:04. > :07:07.certainly proving controversial. Let's take a look.
:07:08. > :07:17.This is the story of Nick Clegg, a man entrusted by a nation to act
:07:18. > :07:25.upon the policies he proposed. But he soon became the UNcredible
:07:26. > :07:31.shrinking man. He desperately tried to impress his new friends. He
:07:32. > :07:39.noticed something most peculiar. Everything he stood for began to
:07:40. > :07:44.shrink. Tax cuts. For millionaires. I think we should spare a thought
:07:45. > :07:55.for the wealthy. I have a friend who was down to his last two yachts. Mr
:07:56. > :08:02.Cameron! Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has shrunk. He has actually
:08:03. > :08:11.shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt him. Leave this to me.
:08:12. > :08:24.Don't worry. I have an important job for you. Great. I would like you to
:08:25. > :08:28.look after Socks. David! We are now joined by the Lib Dem peer Olly
:08:29. > :08:35.Grender. How did it go down at Lib Dem headquarters? Not very well. As
:08:36. > :08:41.you can imagine. I think it is furious that we have got this moment
:08:42. > :08:46.about a European election and they've vertical vote. I think it is
:08:47. > :08:55.critical. -- a critical vote. Here what we have is an attack. The pea
:08:56. > :09:01.soup of core vote rather than extended argument -- the pursuit.
:09:02. > :09:07.You do get knock-about in politics. You have to roll with that. Some may
:09:08. > :09:14.find a surprise in that Labour would dedicate a full broadcast to
:09:15. > :09:19.attacking Nick Clegg. They are there so we do not have the kind of
:09:20. > :09:25.advertising you see in the US. It is for a good reason. They are free.
:09:26. > :09:30.But there is an expectation you slightly lay out your stall. I did
:09:31. > :09:35.not see that here. Douglas Alexander who I think is one of the people
:09:36. > :09:39.running the Labour campaign for 2015, he said, we expect a campaign
:09:40. > :09:44.of fear and smear from the Conservatives. What was that? This
:09:45. > :09:48.is the problem. They will have everything thrown at them by the
:09:49. > :09:53.Conservatives and Lynton Crosby. They will be able to point to this
:09:54. > :09:58.video. What is depressing and I wrote about it yesterday... I read
:09:59. > :10:03.about it in the Guardian. It should be offering a message of hope. It
:10:04. > :10:07.does mean taking on the record of the Lib Dems, but you have to at
:10:08. > :10:12.least balance it out with an alternative vision. How are you
:10:13. > :10:18.doing with the housing crisis, falling living standards? Tony Benn
:10:19. > :10:23.used to say it is about the issue is not the personalities. There was a
:10:24. > :10:30.lack of that in the video. This is an attack. A British version of an
:10:31. > :10:36.American-style attack ad at the kind that was done on Mitt Romney. Do
:10:37. > :10:41.they work? I thought it was funny. I like it for a number of reasons. I
:10:42. > :10:44.love the line about, can we hunt him? The character playing David
:10:45. > :10:50.Cameron was brilliant. It was a pastiche of the Harry Enfield
:10:51. > :10:54.sketch, woman, know your place. I also like it because it is making
:10:55. > :11:01.politics interesting. This is a class war attack. It is presenting
:11:02. > :11:05.the Conservatives as toffs who do not care, do not know what NHS
:11:06. > :11:11.stands for. It is absurd even how much David Cameron bangs on about
:11:12. > :11:18.our NHS. And how much he used it personally. This is all to the good.
:11:19. > :11:25.We on the right see the enemy plane in view. The Labour Party have gone
:11:26. > :11:32.very hard left. Come on! By supporting George Osborne was not
:11:33. > :11:38.spending plans -- George Osborne's spending plans? You quite like
:11:39. > :11:41.American-style politics where it is dirty and mean and it is about
:11:42. > :11:44.personalities. I think people in this country do not want it. They
:11:45. > :11:49.want it about the issues and politics. The one thing that maybe
:11:50. > :11:54.they need to start including if there is going to be an attack like
:11:55. > :11:58.this is Ed Miliband saying, I have seen this broadcast and I approved
:11:59. > :12:03.it. It would be embarrassing to ask Ed Miliband... The public purse has
:12:04. > :12:06.paid quite a lot of money to Ed Miliband over recent years to
:12:07. > :12:12.develop policies for his party. I would like to know where they are.
:12:13. > :12:16.An important point is about who has endorsed it. We have tried to get
:12:17. > :12:21.Labour people to come on and defended but they have not done it.
:12:22. > :12:29.I have Douglas Alexander on the programme on the Sunday Politics
:12:30. > :12:35.this Sunday at 11am. He tweeted it. He has to defend it. It is his
:12:36. > :12:42.campaign. He suggested it was more him. What do you make about James's
:12:43. > :12:50.point about the class war aspect of this? I am not interested in
:12:51. > :12:53.people's backgrounds. The problem in politics generally is that it is an
:12:54. > :12:57.representative. Looking at the whole parliament, there are a lack of
:12:58. > :13:01.working-class people. The Tories are worse but it is not great in the Lib
:13:02. > :13:06.Dems. There are no ethnic minority members of the Liberal Democrats.
:13:07. > :13:10.Not many women. Labour have a problem as well. Talk about policies
:13:11. > :13:14.about tax justice and making people pay taxes and income and
:13:15. > :13:26.distributing wealth and power. I do not think personal pop shots work. I
:13:27. > :13:34.do not believe in it either. I do not like this game, this divisive
:13:35. > :13:40.approach to society where we have to say the up against... It not about
:13:41. > :13:44.that. That is what the video was saying. I do not like the video. I
:13:45. > :13:49.said to Hazel blears before the election, why didn't they deal with
:13:50. > :13:53.the will social housing waiting list question what she said that no one
:13:54. > :13:57.was interested in housing. What that says to me is that you do not have
:13:58. > :14:01.people on the lists in selected for parliament, it is less likely to be
:14:02. > :14:05.addressed. It is hard to come from Salford and said that there is no
:14:06. > :14:10.interest in housing. The Lib Dems came back with a reply to this. It
:14:11. > :14:33.is your own attack advert. Let us have a look at this.
:14:34. > :14:43.No expense spared! A little YouTube number. The point you are trying to
:14:44. > :14:53.make is that on the European issues, Mr Miliband. At. Attacking
:14:54. > :15:01.Nick Clegg is a curious stance. Surely they want to hold on to the
:15:02. > :15:05.leftish Lib Dem voters who have moved to Labour. Someone said this
:15:06. > :15:10.week that there are few messages that are appealing to the south of
:15:11. > :15:13.England. This demonstrates that. I want to put something else up on the
:15:14. > :15:26.screen. This is another Labour advert. There it is. It is about Mr
:15:27. > :15:31.Clegg and Mr Cameron who put ?450 extra VAT on your shopping bill.
:15:32. > :15:41.Spot the deliberate mistake. They think there is VAT on food. Almost
:15:42. > :15:51.every item does not have VAT X macro that is unfortunate. That is fairly
:15:52. > :16:00.recent. You have to be fairly out of touch to not know that. The Lib Dems
:16:01. > :16:08.campaign on stopping the VAT bombshell. I think it captures
:16:09. > :16:18.perfectly the lamer choose of the Lib Dems generally. -- the lameness.
:16:19. > :16:24.I love how it completely damns the Lib Dems. The best shot they have is
:16:25. > :16:29.that they are saying, we are the only party that takes the UKIP
:16:30. > :16:35.menace seriously. Defining yourself against the most popular would-be
:16:36. > :16:43.MP... If only he had put himself before the electorate. Good luck to
:16:44. > :16:51.any party who defends himself. Or who is in favour of Europe. Give
:16:52. > :16:57.Owen a call for advice on any posters will stop it is quite
:16:58. > :17:05.remarkable, but anyway. Now for the latest in our series
:17:06. > :17:07.of political thinkers. Today it's the turn of
:17:08. > :17:09.Peter Kropotkin. Giles went to meet his champion, Tom
:17:10. > :17:39.Hogkinson of the Idler magazine. I will make a net that most people
:17:40. > :17:44.think they know what an anarchist is and would not expect to find out
:17:45. > :17:55.about one at the Royal geographical Society in London. I'm here in
:17:56. > :17:57.Kensington to meet the editor of the Idler magazine. He thinks he can
:17:58. > :18:04.tell us how to live our lives better. How are you? Why have I come
:18:05. > :18:13.to the Royal geographic Society to find out about an anarchist?
:18:14. > :18:20.Kropotkin was a fascinating character. In his 20s he became an
:18:21. > :18:27.Explorer. He did trips across the mountains of Siberia which he wrote
:18:28. > :18:30.up in his learn it journals and he created fantastic and beautiful maps
:18:31. > :18:36.which are still in use today. Later in life, he became the foremost
:18:37. > :18:44.proponent of anarchism as a social theory. Why'd you like him so much?
:18:45. > :18:49.I was researching a book which was trying to find out how we can inject
:18:50. > :19:02.more freedom in to our everyday lives. I wrote a populist book about
:19:03. > :19:05.it. The first half of his book is about cooperation between animals
:19:06. > :19:09.and then it is about human beings, and is full of ideas about how we
:19:10. > :19:13.can improve our relationships and take control of our lives. If you
:19:14. > :19:17.think this is a funny place to find an anarchist philosopher, let me
:19:18. > :19:29.show you where he lived when he lived in England. Let do that will.
:19:30. > :19:35.When you said let's come and see where he lives, I did not think we
:19:36. > :19:40.would end up in suburban Bromley. There is a blue plaque. What is his
:19:41. > :19:44.theory of anarchism? He is against authority in whatever form it might
:19:45. > :19:49.exist will stop he is against the tyrannical power of the state which
:19:50. > :19:54.forces citizens to do things they do not want to do. He is against big
:19:55. > :20:00.business because companies force their employees to do things they do
:20:01. > :20:04.not want to do. State and big corporations take away our
:20:05. > :20:14.individual freedoms. We have become used to anarchist meaning Moloch off
:20:15. > :20:21.cocktails and direct action. This theorist says Kropotkin was a
:20:22. > :20:24.likeable man, worthy of respect. What people liked about Kropotkin
:20:25. > :20:30.was that he practised what he preached. He lived the kind of life
:20:31. > :20:41.he thought anarchists and mole people should live. -- moral people.
:20:42. > :20:45.I could not take you to Russia but there is a Russian restaurant in
:20:46. > :20:52.London that will do. The Russia we are talking about was writing in the
:20:53. > :20:55.late 19th century. Is it relevant? It is strikingly relevant because a
:20:56. > :21:01.lot of the problems our experience today. We complain about not
:21:02. > :21:04.enjoying our work and being stuck in a boring job, and people want to
:21:05. > :21:10.escape from it. The complain about a government that we think has become
:21:11. > :21:14.too big and controlling. His idea, really, was to take responsibility
:21:15. > :21:20.and this is something we can do today. We can take power back. It
:21:21. > :21:22.could be something like growing your own vegetables or organising a
:21:23. > :21:28.cricket match with the neighbours will stop or making your own clothes
:21:29. > :21:32.and mending them stop these creative act are the ideas we need to bring
:21:33. > :21:39.back into our lives today. It is not just enjoying yourselves, it is
:21:40. > :21:58.because he wants a better society. He thinks that is better for
:21:59. > :22:01.everybody. Excellent! They do get around, don't they?
:22:02. > :22:04.And the Editor of the Idler magazine Tom Hodgkinson is here.
:22:05. > :22:16.Did he have much influence at the time was to mark --? Socialism was
:22:17. > :22:26.influenced by Kropotkin's ideas. He called him a great White Christ
:22:27. > :22:33.coming from Russia. He was a big influence. Did that influence have
:22:34. > :22:40.any practical effect or did it go with his departure? It had the
:22:41. > :22:48.practical effect of affecting wild political philosophy. Idler did not
:22:49. > :22:51.call it anarchism will stop at his essay was read by political thinkers
:22:52. > :23:01.and it would have influenced people like Orwell and the anarchists in
:23:02. > :23:07.Spain. Would it have worked? It has worked briefly in little moments.
:23:08. > :23:11.One thing that Kropotkin liked was the medieval citystate system, and
:23:12. > :23:16.this is before we had nations, and before we had big governments. Like
:23:17. > :23:23.Venice and Florence, and London now! Yet! He loved the idea that a new
:23:24. > :23:29.kind of radical bourgeois culture was coming out of the countryside,
:23:30. > :23:32.removing itself from nobles, building their own cities, and
:23:33. > :23:41.governing themselves. Self-government communes. Up and
:23:42. > :23:51.down the river, these cities sprung up in the 11th and 12 century. In
:23:52. > :23:55.the 15th century, the rise of the nation occurred and when governments
:23:56. > :23:59.get out of hand, Hitler and Stalin at here. Is there a big difference
:24:00. > :24:08.between anarchism and libertarianism? This guy sounds like
:24:09. > :24:12.my kind of man. He does not like big government or corporations those are
:24:13. > :24:18.the big problems in our society. Where would he give from a
:24:19. > :24:27.libertarian like me? I am not sure how libertarian you are but I think
:24:28. > :24:32.one of the problems with libertarianism... Take for example
:24:33. > :24:38.the silicon valley libertarianism, the people that run Facebook, they
:24:39. > :24:41.have an extreme version of it, and they do not want any control on
:24:42. > :24:46.their behaviour. That can lead to immoral behaviour, especially with
:24:47. > :24:50.new industry like the Internet which needs regulation. There can be a
:24:51. > :24:58.role for the government to hold back from the excesses of that kind of
:24:59. > :25:04.commercial freedom. He emphasises mutual aid and how people can help
:25:05. > :25:10.each other. That is what I like about Kropotkin, he is optimistic
:25:11. > :25:19.and warm, and agrees that we are not all selfish and out for each other.
:25:20. > :25:22.He has a sense that, actually, we are social animals, and we depend on
:25:23. > :25:27.each other, and you can build a society together and work together
:25:28. > :25:32.collectively, but without the tyranny of the state. That is nice.
:25:33. > :25:35.I think one day in the future, centuries from now, I think it is
:25:36. > :25:40.depressing that we will all be languishing under a state, under
:25:41. > :25:44.authority where we cannot trust each other and we have to be protected
:25:45. > :25:47.from each other. We have gross inequalities between wealth and
:25:48. > :25:57.power, and while I do not agree it is a practical blueprint, it is a
:25:58. > :26:08.nice thought. My dream libertarian age the Victorian age -- is the
:26:09. > :26:15.Victorian age. There was a fine tradition of philanthropy, the
:26:16. > :26:18.government was much smaller, the economy was driving. What was the
:26:19. > :26:33.life expectancy in the Victorian age? -- thriving. That is not true,
:26:34. > :26:37.actually! There was a lot of good stuff in the Victorian age but we
:26:38. > :26:42.have to look at the facts, and the fact was that it was the government
:26:43. > :26:49.who introduced things like the ten hour working day. In the early 1800,
:26:50. > :26:56.women and children were literally dying because they were working so
:26:57. > :27:03.much. It was unregulated, the labour market. The government did do some
:27:04. > :27:09.good there. Employers want staff to die on the job, they think, but they
:27:10. > :27:12.do not. You find that business has an interest in looking after
:27:13. > :27:16.employers will stop the great myth of the Left is that the government
:27:17. > :27:22.does not have to step in on time. No, no! It was Lord Shaftesbury who
:27:23. > :27:27.introduced limitations on the working day. Fair enough. I am not
:27:28. > :27:32.saying there is no room for the government but the work of
:27:33. > :27:37.catalysts... We live in a society where most people in poverty are in
:27:38. > :27:43.work and the tax payer is subsidising poverty. Instead of big
:27:44. > :27:49.government subsidising those employers, let's have a wage that
:27:50. > :27:54.reduces the burden on the tax payer. It is the same with housing. We
:27:55. > :27:59.subsidised private landlords, we subsidised companies, big
:28:00. > :28:04.corporations, industry, education. So, let's have a society where we do
:28:05. > :28:05.not have that. What-macro hold that bought because we have to move on
:28:06. > :28:09.and we may cover some of that. Now, talking of political thinkers,
:28:10. > :28:12.we've got two quite large ones So we thought we'd play
:28:13. > :28:23.Political Roulette. A sort of poor man's
:28:24. > :28:26."Have I Got News For You" device. Yes, we have a series of hot topics
:28:27. > :28:31.on the Daily Politics wheel. And we want you to discuss
:28:32. > :28:35.as many of them as we can. One of you press that button to get
:28:36. > :28:53.it spinning and press it again when you want it to stop! Press the
:28:54. > :28:58.button. This is a smooth operation! As you can see, we are new to this
:28:59. > :29:08.and have I got news for you is not in any danger. Press the button,
:29:09. > :29:16.started spinning. Press it again. The economy. I will say to you that
:29:17. > :29:22.living standards are rising, unemployment is falling. The Tories
:29:23. > :29:25.said they would pay off the debt, but they have added more debt. They
:29:26. > :29:29.said it would wipe out the deficit but they will be lucky to get
:29:30. > :29:37.through half. As for growth, the worst economic recovery since, not
:29:38. > :29:44.the great depression, but the longest recovery since the Victorian
:29:45. > :29:51.age. The longest fall in living standards since Victoria sat on the
:29:52. > :29:58.throne. People will be poorer than they were in 2015 than they were in
:29:59. > :30:06.2010. Despite having written that things are going to get better, and
:30:07. > :30:10.this generation has -- never had it so good, I would have to concede.
:30:11. > :30:16.This is a feeble recovery and it is driven by quantitive easing, which
:30:17. > :30:21.is creating this room. This enables the rich get richer. The housing
:30:22. > :30:26.bubble. A housing bubble, I do not think it is a real recovery, and I
:30:27. > :30:32.worry that the worst is yet to come and we are going to have something
:30:33. > :30:44.horrible to happen. Nevertheless, it is a vindication of having not
:30:45. > :30:49.joined the euro. They cheated! I wanted to get climate change will
:30:50. > :30:55.stop I can happily talk about UKIP. It is very exciting. Some polls seem
:30:56. > :31:18.to be suggesting they are almost 40%. Question Time... Namely poll.
:31:19. > :31:24.-- named the poll. James Delingpole! It was dominated by Nigel Farage.
:31:25. > :31:30.The audience was all over him. They thought he was fantastic. He is
:31:31. > :31:36.different. Will they come first in the European elections? Yes. And
:31:37. > :31:42.other public schoolboy who worked in the City. He trades on the
:31:43. > :31:49.antiestablishment. That is the reality of it. The problem with UKIP
:31:50. > :31:54.is they are deflecting people's anger at real problems. 5 million
:31:55. > :31:59.people on social housing waiting lists, not because of immigrants,
:32:00. > :32:04.but because of the Government not building housing. We have a lack of
:32:05. > :32:09.skilled jobs, not because of immigrants, but because successive
:32:10. > :32:16.governments... Why are they doing so well? The polls of UKIP motors, very
:32:17. > :32:22.different opinions than James Delingpole. They want to
:32:23. > :32:30.renationalise energy, rail, they want to tax the rich. They are seen
:32:31. > :32:43.as up yours, immigration is the big issue driving it. Your turn. Press
:32:44. > :33:01.it again. Cameron. Where do I start? Give me that. Do it again. Climate
:33:02. > :33:07.change. I am surrounded by two powerful believers in the consensus.
:33:08. > :33:13.We have seen a fascinating report, the... The IPCC report. In a sense,
:33:14. > :33:17.it makes for depressing reading because if we do not deal with the
:33:18. > :33:24.threat of climate change, we will have more extreme weather, drought,
:33:25. > :33:29.floods, so one. The key point is it is an opportunity for jobs and for
:33:30. > :33:33.growth. If we in Britain have a mass insulation programme of homes and
:33:34. > :33:38.businesses, good for fuel poverty and the environment. We lost
:33:39. > :33:44.industries, we do not want to send people down the mines, like Germany,
:33:45. > :33:47.we could have hundreds of thousands of renewable energy jobs. Whilst it
:33:48. > :33:53.might look bleak, great opportunity for jobs and the economy. We should
:33:54. > :33:56.get to work on it. I am a great believer in climate change will stop
:33:57. > :34:04.it has been changing for the last 4.5 billion worth years -- 4.5
:34:05. > :34:06.billion years. There have been other warming periods where people were
:34:07. > :34:11.billion years. There have been other not flying around in jets or
:34:12. > :34:14.billion years. There have been other in four x fours. In its own way, the
:34:15. > :34:22.climate was capable of changing. We are just coming out of the Little
:34:23. > :34:26.ice age which ended in 1850. In the recent warming and the warming the
:34:27. > :34:33.IPCC has concentrated on, from the mid to early 70s, man has played no
:34:34. > :34:45.role in that? It has played a tiny role. What percentage? Less than
:34:46. > :34:49.half the warming. That is not tiny. In the last 150 years, global
:34:50. > :34:54.half the warming. That is not tiny. temperatures have risen by 0.8
:34:55. > :34:56.half the warming. That is not tiny. degrees. Do you think the scientific
:34:57. > :35:01.consensus is wrong degrees. Do you think the scientific
:35:02. > :35:08.in terms of drought and extreme weather patterns? I love this appeal
:35:09. > :35:12.to authority. Scientists know what they are talking about.
:35:13. > :35:17.to authority. Scientists know what Ph.D. In it. Again, the appeal to
:35:18. > :35:25.authority. A lot of the scientists are actually green activists. They
:35:26. > :35:31.work for Greenpeace, the WWF. Many are actually green activists. They
:35:32. > :35:39.respected scientists dispute the claims of the IPC 's. They said this
:35:40. > :35:48.about HIV and AIDS. It is also an economic question. I am making a
:35:49. > :35:51.point. Even if you accept that the climate is warming slightly, you
:35:52. > :35:55.have to ask yourself, are the measures being taken to deal with
:35:56. > :36:00.what so far seems to be a slight problem? Are they causing more harm
:36:01. > :36:03.than good? I would argue that they are.
:36:04. > :36:10.than good? I would argue that they you said. 50% of the climate
:36:11. > :36:18.change... It is less than that. What is your explanation for the pause in
:36:19. > :36:21.temperature rises is your explanation for the pause in
:36:22. > :36:22.years? It is climate change. is your explanation for the pause in
:36:23. > :36:29.is the long view. is your explanation for the pause in
:36:30. > :36:33.projections over the coming years. is your explanation for the pause in
:36:34. > :36:39.The computers never predicted this pause. Again, if you look at the
:36:40. > :36:43.consensus over the last few years, pause. Again, if you look at the
:36:44. > :36:48.what we see at the moment is that we are ready seeing the impact of
:36:49. > :36:51.climate change with extreme weather events, and impact particularly in
:36:52. > :36:56.many third World countries, an increase in flooding, things like
:36:57. > :37:00.hurricane 's. We are de seeing the impact. It is not something to be
:37:01. > :37:04.frightened about. Do you accept these extreme weather events must
:37:05. > :37:10.have something to do with climate change? Extreme weather events go on
:37:11. > :37:13.in the world and there will be tomorrow. Extreme weather happens
:37:14. > :37:23.all of the time. People like Owen love to fetishise the IPCC. The men
:37:24. > :37:27.in the white lab coats. It has become like a religion and these are
:37:28. > :37:33.the high priests. The economic damage is worrying. We will leave it
:37:34. > :37:40.there. I enjoy that. Now, this is the season
:37:41. > :37:43.of election launches and today it's the turn of the Trade
:37:44. > :37:46.Union and Socialist Coalition. They have more than 500 candidates
:37:47. > :37:48.standing in the local elections. Let's take a look at one
:37:49. > :37:59.of their election videos. Cuts! No! I am standing for TUSC in
:38:00. > :38:06.Tower Hamlets. Why should we have to pay for the mistakes of the bankers?
:38:07. > :38:14.I am standing to be a TUSC candidate in the Lewisham are. I am at the
:38:15. > :38:18.conference for the simple reason I believe this is the start of
:38:19. > :38:24.something monumental. I believe this is the start of a working people
:38:25. > :38:31.getting political, active and also having an alternative voice to
:38:32. > :38:36.Labour when Labour decide one central to sever links with the
:38:37. > :38:39.trade unions. We are joined by the national chair of the Trade Union
:38:40. > :38:47.and Socialist Coalition. It is good to have a moderate on the programme
:38:48. > :38:54.at last! I take it from that video that the party's concentration is
:38:55. > :39:00.overwhelmingly on what you think of the cuts and austerity. That is
:39:01. > :39:03.right. Three quarters of our candidates are active trade
:39:04. > :39:11.unionists and very senior people. We have also got a lot of anti-bedroom
:39:12. > :39:16.tax campaigners, anti-fracking campaigners, anti-cuts campaigners.
:39:17. > :39:20.We have some people who have already made history. We have Lord Dixon
:39:21. > :39:28.whose Heckel started the process that led to the new Hillsborough
:39:29. > :39:37.inquest. We are tackling austerity and cuts. You are contesting 559
:39:38. > :39:42.seats in 87 cities. What would be a good result for you? I will give you
:39:43. > :39:49.the same answer as when you asked before. We have only been going for
:39:50. > :39:53.years. Do you have any councils at the moment? I have just come from a
:39:54. > :39:57.press conference where a councillor who was expelled by the Labour Party
:39:58. > :40:03.a few months ago for voting against the closure of a swimming pool in
:40:04. > :40:05.his ward, he was sat by me at the press conference because he is
:40:06. > :40:09.standing for us for re-election. Like I said before, when you are
:40:10. > :40:14.starting from scratch and you have not got big money behind you, let us
:40:15. > :40:18.remember, the unions has given Labour third of a third of ?1
:40:19. > :40:23.billion and they have less influence now than the poor in the early part
:40:24. > :40:27.of the 19th century. It is visibility we are after to try to
:40:28. > :40:37.get the alternative message out. You get some backing from the RMT. Yes.
:40:38. > :40:42.Will that continue now that Bob Crow has passed away? His passing was a
:40:43. > :40:48.tremendous shock. He was a driving force. But the RMT is a democratic
:40:49. > :40:52.union and has twice had an annual conference of delegates around the
:40:53. > :40:55.country and the conference has decided to back the coalition and
:40:56. > :41:04.its representatives are drawn from the whole executives. Owen Jones's
:41:05. > :41:13.father... I remember his dad very well. What can you say to him to get
:41:14. > :41:17.him to join you? He has made excellent points. Our difference
:41:18. > :41:20.really is that we have already reached a conclusion like the
:41:21. > :41:26.counsellor I have been speaking about in Southampton. You have two
:41:27. > :41:30.chances daily macro choices in the Labour Party. You vote for cuts or
:41:31. > :41:37.if you vote against them like in Hull and other places, Labour is
:41:38. > :41:45.expelling councillors. I want to be on their side. He won spectator
:41:46. > :41:50.magazine's backbencher of the year. He is a very principled man and lots
:41:51. > :41:57.of people involved... Why are you not with him? My dad was a militant.
:41:58. > :42:00.My great uncle, he was on the football team of the Independent
:42:01. > :42:07.Labour Party in the 1930s. They left the Labour Party and they dwindled
:42:08. > :42:12.into insignificance. That has been the story of every attempt to set up
:42:13. > :42:17.a new left party, unafraid. The question I put two people setting up
:42:18. > :42:25.a left party is that why given every single other attempt having failed
:42:26. > :42:31.why will it be different? The early period is hard. The leader of the
:42:32. > :42:42.first party up in Scotland... UKIP when they stood initially got 1.7%.
:42:43. > :42:45.We have been averaging 5%, 6%, in council elections. I am confident
:42:46. > :42:52.that given the choice, Labour, Tories, Liberal Democrats, there is
:42:53. > :42:55.an alternative. I do not disagree that it is a hard job. We will have
:42:56. > :43:01.to leave it there. of their election videos.
:43:02. > :43:04.Andrew Breitbart, not a household name here, but
:43:05. > :43:09.across the pond, he was renowned, or notorious, depending on which side
:43:10. > :43:12.of the political spectrum use it. A leading right-wing blogger,
:43:13. > :43:14.he was at the forefront of digital media, breaking high-profile stories
:43:15. > :43:19.of political scandal and helping to develop the Huffington Post.
:43:20. > :43:21.Before his early death two years ago, he established the Breitbart
:43:22. > :43:27.news website which has now just launched in
:43:28. > :43:31.the UK, featuring James Delingpole. Giles Dilnot paid them
:43:32. > :43:37.a visit to have a look at the latest in online-only journalism.
:43:38. > :43:43.It started life as Boris wants said as wiff-waff, became ping-pong and
:43:44. > :43:51.officially table tennis. The back and forth his political news. The
:43:52. > :44:00.quirky. Abu Hamza tucks into a doughnut. Breibart London may be
:44:01. > :44:04.coming from the editor's flat, but it is another voice online doing
:44:05. > :44:09.serious business in what rather dated Lee is referred to as the
:44:10. > :44:17.blogosphere. It is not just filing copy, Breibart is batting with a
:44:18. > :44:22.spin. We do not hide it. It is very obvious. It should be obvious when
:44:23. > :44:26.you hit the front page. If not, we are doing a bad job. But it is
:44:27. > :44:30.fact. We are serving a market which is fed up of buying newspapers and
:44:31. > :44:36.getting press releases. Traditional media have spent the last year aping
:44:37. > :44:39.online political news because they are serious competition. Looking at
:44:40. > :44:44.the national newspapers, they are covering stories from three or four
:44:45. > :44:50.days ago. What is the hold-up? They have to deal
:44:51. > :44:56.days ago. What is the hold-up? They pages. We do not have that. The
:44:57. > :45:00.agility is at the offices of Vice.com where the freedom of the
:45:01. > :45:06.internet and its ability not to be bound to old formats or loyalties is
:45:07. > :45:09.tricky for politicians. One of the freedoms we have that other
:45:10. > :45:13.organisations we have that have existed for longer and in a more
:45:14. > :45:20.conservative space, we do not necessarily have to behave in the
:45:21. > :45:25.same manner as the BBC or the Times. Perhaps it would be more risky for
:45:26. > :45:31.politicians to come and get into bed with this, as it were. Political
:45:32. > :45:37.Scrapbook sees politics as better for the online challenge. The reason
:45:38. > :45:42.politicians do not like the blog is clear is that it has democratised
:45:43. > :45:45.access to information -- the blogosphere. There
:45:46. > :45:47.access to information -- the an open secret in Westminster a
:45:48. > :45:55.couple of years ago that 250 people knew about. The difference now is
:45:56. > :46:00.lid on that information. It has opened it up to anybody with an
:46:01. > :46:02.internet connection. They all agree that nobody involved knows how big
:46:03. > :46:04.internet connection. They all agree online media is going to be except
:46:05. > :46:07.that it is not a fad. If online media is going to be except
:46:08. > :46:11.not sure, you can bet that online media is going to be except
:46:12. > :46:21.politicians and old media do not have a clue. James you are involved
:46:22. > :46:25.with this. It has become fundamentally uninspiring,
:46:26. > :46:29.with this. It has become going to shake things up?
:46:30. > :46:35.with this. It has become long time. It is the greatest
:46:36. > :46:37.with this. It has become invention of the printing press.
:46:38. > :46:42.Information is You start from a low base in the UK,
:46:43. > :46:48.don't you? You start from a low base in the UK,
:46:49. > :46:55.expectations. This is exciting. Old media is dying on its feet and new
:46:56. > :46:59.media is a new thing. One of the reasons is that it can get onto
:47:00. > :47:09.stories more quickly and also, it also circumvents the way that the
:47:10. > :47:13.Left has occupied the universities, the schools, the newspapers. Right
:47:14. > :47:20.wingers can get round that. I would give you one example. Climate gate,
:47:21. > :47:27.that story would not have broken without the Internet. Most of the
:47:28. > :47:34.information about that is on the Internet. In this country, is there
:47:35. > :47:47.a left wing equivalent of Breitbart? You saw Political Scrapbook which is
:47:48. > :47:53.an equivalent. The problem is this idea that the traditional media is
:47:54. > :47:59.dominated by the left. It does not resonate with me. It depends on the
:48:00. > :48:05.definition of left. There are lots of left blog is, certainly. If you
:48:06. > :48:15.look at the Guardian, that gets 100 million hit. -- hits. That gives a
:48:16. > :48:19.platform to a variety of voices on the left, and the right as well stop
:48:20. > :48:26.rather than stick with the dead tree press... The Guardian is the
:48:27. > :48:32.second-biggest website in the world! Rather than sticking with the dead
:48:33. > :48:40.tree press, why do you not do a British Breitbart of the left? I
:48:41. > :48:45.will tell you why I do not agree. One contributed to Breitbart in the
:48:46. > :48:50.USA, he treated that if there is another terrorism attack in the USA,
:48:51. > :48:54.all Muslims should be slaughtered in the street. I do not think that
:48:55. > :49:02.style of politics, that extreme it is, is helpful. -- extremism. The
:49:03. > :49:09.danger of Breitbart is that it becomes the lowest common to. You
:49:10. > :49:16.said that every time you speak, 1000 new Socialists are born. Is that
:49:17. > :49:26.right? Did that come out of my mouth? Ultimately, the facts of life
:49:27. > :49:32.are of Conservative, and this is what the Internet shows. People have
:49:33. > :49:42.an appetite for ideas, and not just... Sorry, we are going to have
:49:43. > :49:45.to move on. The success of the BNP, the British National party, in the
:49:46. > :49:49.last election. They won two seats in the North of England. Since then,
:49:50. > :49:54.their fortunes have declined and they looked to be cruising for a
:49:55. > :49:58.bruising this time around. In a moment, we will talk to the party
:49:59. > :50:04.leader, Nick Griffin. He was a flavour of their latest campaign
:50:05. > :50:08.video. Can I make something clear to you? UKIP is not against
:50:09. > :50:24.immigration. We welcome immigration and want immigration.
:50:25. > :50:30.# Tell them where to go by voting BNP.
:50:31. > :50:36.# That is it, that is all you are allowed to see. It has been
:50:37. > :50:41.censored. The powers that be say it is because we break off, rules. We
:50:42. > :50:49.think it is because the message of hope is out of kilter with the
:50:50. > :50:58.agenda of making British people a minority in this country. -- OFCOM.
:50:59. > :51:08.You are in terminal decline, aren't you? That video, which the BBC
:51:09. > :51:14.censored... Actually, it was OFCOM. No, it was OFCOM. It does not
:51:15. > :51:22.matter. It does. It has been seen by thousands of people. It is the most
:51:23. > :51:28.popular British political broadcast in history, it is gone by wilful
:51:29. > :51:32.Ain 2007, you've got 200,000 votes. After the local elections, you had
:51:33. > :51:37.55 councillors. You now have two, why did you lose your seats? You are
:51:38. > :51:42.doing it again. We are not down to two councillors. We have dozens in
:51:43. > :51:46.the North of England. Parish and town council is working hard for
:51:47. > :51:49.their community. We have not got the seats where people are paid for
:51:50. > :51:54.working as a councillor. When we stand in those, the Labour Party
:51:55. > :52:01.rolls out electoral fraud campaigns and the BBC covered it up. If it is
:52:02. > :52:06.our fault that you have lost most of your councillors, is it our fault
:52:07. > :52:11.that you got 55 in the first place? I did not say it was your fault, I
:52:12. > :52:18.said it was the BBC's fault for covering up electoral fraud. Who's
:52:19. > :52:26.fault is it that your membership has collapsed? Again, I would love to
:52:27. > :52:31.blame the BBC because if you do not pay or BBC licence, you put in
:52:32. > :52:40.prison. I cannot do that. How much is it to join the BMP? A full
:52:41. > :52:53.membership is ?90. Unemployed, ?60. You have lost almost 10,000 members
:52:54. > :53:02.in recent years. Our membership has gone down in recent years, so has
:53:03. > :53:06.other parties. The BBC should be talking about this issue. We have a
:53:07. > :53:09.system in Britain where people are sacked, fired and discriminated
:53:10. > :53:15.against because of their beliefs. That is a scandal. Are you to blame
:53:16. > :53:21.for the party's decline? My members do not think so. There are always
:53:22. > :53:27.people who fall out, who are sacked for some reason. That is politics. I
:53:28. > :53:30.was in charge of the party's electoral rise, I have seen it
:53:31. > :53:35.through the hard times, we were massively in debt, and we are now in
:53:36. > :53:40.the black. We will still be here in the future. You have fallen out with
:53:41. > :53:45.senior members, you have been declared bankrupt in January as
:53:46. > :53:49.well, is it not time to let someone else have a go? My members say that
:53:50. > :53:55.the legal debt which bankrupted me were rung up because the British
:53:56. > :54:01.government attacked the BNP with the equality commission, and I was right
:54:02. > :54:05.to defend that case, so my members do not care if I am bankrupt. A lot
:54:06. > :54:12.of people have come to me, ordinary people, and said, I am bankrupt,
:54:13. > :54:15.Nick, can you give me some advice? In recent years, you have tried to
:54:16. > :54:20.make the party seem more respectable. I have looked at your
:54:21. > :54:33.website and Signor manifesto. The top issue, you talk about austerity.
:54:34. > :54:44.-- your manifesto. You talk about adding the burger. Is that your top
:54:45. > :54:52.issue? -- banning the burka. In this country, there is a steady
:54:53. > :54:57.Islamisation, and the burka is a symbol of that. We make a point of
:54:58. > :55:02.resisting it for symbolic reasons and many people agree with me. Why
:55:03. > :55:11.are you still alerting and consorting with neo-Nazis? Such as?
:55:12. > :55:17.You spoke at an explicitly neo-Nazi press conference in January. No, it
:55:18. > :55:26.is not! The leader is in custody on suspicion of murder. No, he is not!
:55:27. > :55:37.That is utter rubbish. You asked me about Golding Dawn, and the leader
:55:38. > :55:45.is imprisoned. -- Golden Dawn. As for them being neo-Nazis, they are
:55:46. > :55:49.descended from the only people to resist Nazi occupation of Greece at
:55:50. > :55:53.the start of the Second World War, thereby saving Russia and the West
:55:54. > :56:00.from Nazi domination. I am not neo-Nazi. When we see Golden Dawn
:56:01. > :56:04.with Nazi insignia and giving Hitler salutes, they are not Nazis? If you
:56:05. > :56:10.studied the history, you would know that that salute was used by young
:56:11. > :56:19.Greeks who went off to fight and die when they were killing young
:56:20. > :56:25.fascists and Nazis. There is the German neo-Nazi group that you spoke
:56:26. > :56:31.at. They are not neo-Nazi. Being neo-Nazi is illegal in Germany and
:56:32. > :56:35.they would have been banned. What we need in the European Parliament is a
:56:36. > :56:38.proper radical national block so that there is a real voice against
:56:39. > :56:43.the criminal war mongering that is going on from everyone for all the
:56:44. > :56:47.other parties, including UKIP and the BBC, to get us into war is in
:56:48. > :56:52.Syria and the Ukraine which has nothing to do with Britain. We need
:56:53. > :56:56.to speak up against that. Are you being squeezed on the one side by
:56:57. > :57:01.UKIP, which speaks about issues you have mentioned, including
:57:02. > :57:08.immigration and membership of the EU, and on the other side, by the
:57:09. > :57:14.English Defence League, which has become better at street protests and
:57:15. > :57:23.thuggery than you. No! The English Defence League was a big thing two
:57:24. > :57:25.years ago, that it has gone. The demonstrations where we were calling
:57:26. > :57:30.for capital punishment to be introduced, there were only ten
:57:31. > :57:37.elderly skinheads there. Do you think it is a Zionist front
:57:38. > :57:42.organisation? No doubt at all. If you go online and look what lies
:57:43. > :57:52.behind the EDL, you will find all the facts. Is this not a hallmark of
:57:53. > :57:59.fascism when you are labelling people as Zionist? We are not being
:58:00. > :58:05.anti-Italian and to talk about the problems of Zionism, you are not
:58:06. > :58:08.being anti-Semitic. You asked about UKIP, perhaps we should touch on
:58:09. > :58:13.that. You get are squeezing everybody and because they managed
:58:14. > :58:18.to convince some people they have an anti-immigration policy, that could
:58:19. > :58:21.eat into our vote. Their anti-immigration policy is a net
:58:22. > :58:26.increase of 50,000 a year which would actually mean an increase of
:58:27. > :58:30.350 thousand Africans and Asians coming into Britain every year. As
:58:31. > :58:36.that message sinks in, people are taking to us. Our message is to stop
:58:37. > :58:41.all immigration. If you lose any peas, will you give up? No, we will
:58:42. > :58:52.carry on campaigning and we will be back. -- MEPs. That is it for today,
:58:53. > :58:57.I will be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics. It is a 11am. I
:58:58. > :59:01.will be joined by Douglas Alexander and Nigel Farage. The by.
:59:02. > :59:04.You've dug, you've sown, you've planted,
:59:05. > :59:07.you've watered, you've trimmed, you've nurtured.
:59:08. > :59:09.Look what you've grown with your patch of land.
:59:10. > :59:14.A massive thank you for sending in all your pictures, from BBC Two's...