:00:36. > :00:42.Scrap Help To Buy, increase council tax, spend more money.
:00:43. > :00:45.The EU tells Britain how it should be running its economy -
:00:46. > :00:50.David Cameron needs allies like Angela Merkel in Europe.
:00:51. > :00:55.Should he do deals with her political rivals in Brussels?
:00:56. > :00:59.Fees have gone up - now so have complaints from students.
:01:00. > :01:01.Is ?9,000 a year for the privilege of studying
:01:02. > :01:10.Vince Cable's friend's been plotting against Nick Clegg.
:01:11. > :01:14.Today Vince and Nick are going to the pub - will there be a political
:01:15. > :01:27.And with us for the whole programme today is John
:01:28. > :01:30.Micklethwait, the editor-in-chief of the Economist magazine.
:01:31. > :01:35.Let's start with the economy, because the latest figures from the
:01:36. > :01:38.Nationwide suggest that house prices have risen by 11% over the last year
:01:39. > :01:53.Well, it's definitely heated up extremely in London. It's boiling in
:01:54. > :01:57.London. The problem is, the rest of the country is not moving as fast
:01:58. > :02:01.and the Government do want to keep some element of life in the rest of
:02:02. > :02:06.it and particularly Mark Carney - you talk to him and he is stuck in
:02:07. > :02:10.this very difficult balancing act. At the moment I think he's probably
:02:11. > :02:13.still pretty firmly behind the idea that the economy needs more growth
:02:14. > :02:18.so he's unlikely to come in very hard in the short term. There is the
:02:19. > :02:23.question you have raised interest rates because people are sitting on
:02:24. > :02:27.large and high amounts of mortgage debt. The balancing act is going to
:02:28. > :02:31.reach a tipping point. When do you think that will be? I think probably
:02:32. > :02:35.sometime next year. That would feel about right. The problem is what you
:02:36. > :02:40.do to be strained London in the meantime. A sort of things people
:02:41. > :02:45.are talking about - and these are horrible words like Matt Crow
:02:46. > :02:48.credentials. These are where you don't change the interest rates but
:02:49. > :02:54.you change the amount that banks are allowed to lend, so you say 60%,
:02:55. > :02:59.rather than 70 or 80 present. It's that sort of thing where I can
:03:00. > :03:04.imagine Mark Carney coming in first. We're already hearing today from
:03:05. > :03:08.people at Nationwide saying that activity, in terms of mortgage
:03:09. > :03:14.applications being accepted, is starting to cool. So is it true to
:03:15. > :03:17.say that some of the policies being put in place, some of the tightening
:03:18. > :03:23.in terms of lending, is having an effect? Mortgages are all about
:03:24. > :03:29.sentiment. So you, by merely debating it, are helping change it a
:03:30. > :03:32.bit because people are hearing about higher interest rates possibly being
:03:33. > :03:35.on the way and that makes a difference to how much you think
:03:36. > :03:40.you'll end up paying and how much we're going to end up going in terms
:03:41. > :03:44.of the housing market. But if you speak to somebody in the Midlands or
:03:45. > :03:48.Liverpool or Manchester or Yorkshire, they will say they're
:03:49. > :03:53.nowhere near the point of recovery, looking at the pre-crash levels. Is
:03:54. > :03:56.it fair to do anything that might hold back some sort of recovery in
:03:57. > :04:01.house prices in those parts of England? I was in the Midlands last
:04:02. > :04:05.weekend and it isn't the same there. In the centre of London, it's going
:04:06. > :04:10.well but the difficulty is trying to do both at the same time. Imagine
:04:11. > :04:15.trying to do something like trying to limit the amount of money
:04:16. > :04:17.available in the south-east while also playing about with mortgage
:04:18. > :04:24.rules for foreigners and finally, of course, there is the fact that even
:04:25. > :04:29.London, people are beginning to say "this is a lot of money to pay for
:04:30. > :04:35.not much space". Do you think that is starting to bottom out now? Do
:04:36. > :04:39.you think even foreign investors, who are accused of buying up real
:04:40. > :04:43.estate, to use that American phrase, expensive postcodes and leaving them
:04:44. > :04:47.empty, decide they won't pay more. I think there is an element of that
:04:48. > :04:51.and the whole thing is cyclical. If I am a rich foreigner, I'd buy
:04:52. > :04:56.property in London in part because I think other rich foreigners will do.
:04:57. > :04:58.property in London in part because I If you are Chinese or somebody from
:04:59. > :05:02.you are buying this is as a nest you are buying this is as a nest
:05:03. > :05:05.egg. You like London because it is a liquid asset. You can sell it, you
:05:06. > :05:14.think, liquid asset. You can sell it, you
:05:15. > :05:15.want to come in... If you look at the prices
:05:16. > :05:19.want to come in... If you look at against, say, Burlington - and there
:05:20. > :05:24.are all sorts of reasons to against, say, Burlington - and there
:05:25. > :05:36.foreigners you could meet against, say, Burlington - and there
:05:37. > :05:38.interesting. That debate will rumble on.
:05:39. > :06:04.or D - our guest of the day John Micklethwait?
:06:05. > :06:06.They're anti-euro, want a leaner Brussels
:06:07. > :06:14.had seven MEPs elected last week and want to sit with
:06:15. > :06:17.David Cameron's Conservatives in the European Parliament.
:06:18. > :06:19.Trouble is that David Cameron needs to keep
:06:20. > :06:23.German Chancellor Angela Merkel on side if he's going achieve anything
:06:24. > :06:28.in his renegotiation - and this new German Eurosceptic party is Angela
:06:29. > :06:55.Merkel's sworn political enemy. that we want to put reforms on the
:06:56. > :07:03.EU. We want to strengthen that we want to put reforms on the
:07:04. > :07:10.European real estate policy and to bring it to one point, we are
:07:11. > :07:13.heading for a European Union as a federation of
:07:14. > :07:17.heading for a European Union as a sovereign democracies, and we oppose
:07:18. > :07:22.strongly the idea of having a federal state, a European Union as a
:07:23. > :07:28.federal state. I think this is the main point we're making and this is
:07:29. > :07:34.our main political goal. This is what the Alternative for and this
:07:35. > :07:41.will be our responsibility, to stress this issue. So perfect
:07:42. > :07:52.partners for the British Conservative party? I guess so, yes.
:07:53. > :07:56.We are highly compatible with the British Conservatives, as they want
:07:57. > :08:07.to put reforms on the European Union also, and I would call ourselves the
:08:08. > :08:11.natural allies of the Tory party and for the ECR group, who is
:08:12. > :08:15.representing these ideas of re-formation of the EU within the
:08:16. > :08:20.parliament. But do you accept you are the sworn enemy of the
:08:21. > :08:25.Chancellor Angela Merkel? Well, I think at the moment, we're
:08:26. > :08:34.opposing, on one very central point, and this is what we want to have a
:08:35. > :08:37.deep reform of, the European Union and the European institutions. We
:08:38. > :08:43.don't want to have the European Union as a federal state and this is
:08:44. > :08:50.what is pushed forward from Angela Merkel and from all the other German
:08:51. > :08:56.parties, also, so this means that we have got a very important point but
:08:57. > :09:01.we are opposing each other, that's true. John Micklethwait, this would
:09:02. > :09:05.be ideal, wouldn't it, for the Conservative party, to be in the
:09:06. > :09:08.same group? It would be wonderful except that everyone in Europe knows
:09:09. > :09:11.the single person who decides everything in Europe, or has the
:09:12. > :09:16.greatest negative power, is Angela Merkel. I think she has greater
:09:17. > :09:22.power than any person has had in Europe for a very long time and it
:09:23. > :09:26.would mildly annoy her - to put it mildly - if... Do you think, then,
:09:27. > :09:31.that David Cameron won't entertain the idea of getting in bed with the
:09:32. > :09:34.Alternative for Germany party? I think he will entertain the idea
:09:35. > :09:39.because, as we heard, there is such a huge array of similar objectives.
:09:40. > :09:42.That could almost have been a Conservative speaking, which is a
:09:43. > :09:47.terrible thing to say about anyone, but that would have sounded very
:09:48. > :09:50.similar. There is this basic barrier that if he wants anything to happen
:09:51. > :09:55.in Europe, he's got to deal with Angela Merkel. Right, and that's the
:09:56. > :09:59.realistic part of this whole political discussion. As far as
:10:00. > :10:02.David Cameron and the Conservative party is concerned, Beatrix, Angela
:10:03. > :10:09.Merkel is far more important than you. Well, if you look to the
:10:10. > :10:14.European Parliament and you want to strengthen a constructive way of
:10:15. > :10:19.reforms, even within the parliament, we need a strong group who support
:10:20. > :10:26.this idea, so that means we need a strong... It would be good to have a
:10:27. > :10:31.strong ECR and I think we would be good best to do so and I think,
:10:32. > :10:35.finally, it's going to be the members of the European Parliament
:10:36. > :10:39.who are voting us into the group and then it would be far more likely
:10:40. > :10:44.that we have a constructive discussion going on about the
:10:45. > :10:49.re-formation of the system and I think it would be a good sign to the
:10:50. > :10:53.people also that the European Parliament is taking a responsible
:10:54. > :11:00.position within this discussion. I think it would be a brilliant idea
:11:01. > :11:04.to have German members express these points from the floor of Brussels
:11:05. > :11:09.and Strasbourg. What do you think about David Cameron's plan for the
:11:10. > :11:14.in-out referendum on Britain's relationship with the EU? We are
:11:15. > :11:17.also very much supporting the idea of the self-determination of the
:11:18. > :11:24.people so I think it's always a good idea to ask the people themselves
:11:25. > :11:30.what they want. Even in Germany, we want to have these questions put to
:11:31. > :11:38.the people because the parliament is not able, from our constitution, to
:11:39. > :11:43.decide about giving up our sovereignty to whomever, or to the
:11:44. > :11:51.European Union or other institutions. This is not what the
:11:52. > :11:54.parliament has been voted for. They are not allowed to pass away our
:11:55. > :11:58.sovereignty so it's always a very good point to ask the people to
:11:59. > :12:03.participate in the political process. You've been described as a
:12:04. > :12:11.German Eurosceptic party. What do you think of UKIP? Well, I think in
:12:12. > :12:19.general, the ideas they are having are in the same direction. They want
:12:20. > :12:24.to get out of the EU banned from the German taxpayers' point of view,
:12:25. > :12:27.that isn't good for us, but I think it is good to ask the people and
:12:28. > :12:37.this is what UKIP is heading for also, have a referendum on this
:12:38. > :12:43.idea. If Britain leave the European Union, that would be sad. That would
:12:44. > :12:47.not be our wish. But if the people decide likewise, that's the way it
:12:48. > :12:55.is. It will step in democracy and that's always good. Jacob Rees-Mogg,
:12:56. > :12:59.the Conservative MP, has battled through the traffic and made it in
:13:00. > :13:03.the end. We've just been hearing from the Alternative for Germany
:13:04. > :13:07.party, One Direction setting out, really, a Conservative agenda in
:13:08. > :13:12.terms of reform in Europe. Are you going to join forces? I think there
:13:13. > :13:16.is a difference between what goes on in the European Parliament and what
:13:17. > :13:20.goes on inside it. In the European Parliament, the Conservatives cannot
:13:21. > :13:25.be within the European people's party, and outright Federalist party
:13:26. > :13:30.which believes the EU is a fantastic success. That is Angela Merkel's CDU
:13:31. > :13:35.party. The Alternative fur Deutschland is a much more
:13:36. > :13:39.attractive partner for the Conservatives in the context of the
:13:40. > :13:42.European Parliament and it is therefore sensible for David Cameron
:13:43. > :13:46.to maintain very friendly relations with Angela Merkel, which is crucial
:13:47. > :13:51.to his getting his weight in the EU, to the extent that Britain ever gets
:13:52. > :13:54.her way, but it's also sensible in the context of the alliances you
:13:55. > :14:01.need within the European Parliament, for the Conservative group to align
:14:02. > :14:07.with them because it is as close to us as you get in German politics to
:14:08. > :14:12.our view of Europe. But you can't afford to alienate Angela Merkel in
:14:13. > :14:15.any way. By making friends with this lady in Berlin, the Alternative fur
:14:16. > :14:18.Deutschland party, you are going to do exactly that. I don't think
:14:19. > :14:23.that's right. I don't pick we have any perpetual allies. We have the
:14:24. > :14:31.British interest, which we must work towards. Angela Merkel was very
:14:32. > :14:34.upset when we left her party but is now David Cameron's best friend in
:14:35. > :14:39.Europe. Is she his best friend in Europe? She has a much higher
:14:40. > :14:44.respect for him than she did then. The thing that is definitely true is
:14:45. > :14:48.that she would be equally cross - I think more so, particularly when she
:14:49. > :14:54.is trying to deliver a lot of things for Britain - if they did join that
:14:55. > :14:58.group. Mrs Merkel supported Mr Sarkozy for the presidency of
:14:59. > :15:01.France, then she didn't, now she has to get on with Francois Hollande.
:15:02. > :15:04.That's how international politics works. That is a job of
:15:05. > :15:07.international leaders to get on with each other to achieve their own
:15:08. > :15:11.national interests. He has to achieve a lot in his big those years
:15:12. > :15:13.because your Parliamentary colleagues are putting a lot of
:15:14. > :15:17.pressure on him to come back with something tangible head of the 2015
:15:18. > :15:22.election. He needs Angela Merkel to deliver that. The strongest point to
:15:23. > :15:26.get a good renegotiation is to say that if we don't go all we want, we
:15:27. > :15:30.will leave. That is our absolute winner negotiating card, not be here
:15:31. > :15:38.today, gone tomorrow support of Mrs Merkel. Angela Merkel has said she
:15:39. > :15:45.backs him for the Commission President. We know what both
:15:46. > :15:51.Beatrix's party and the Conservatives think about him. They
:15:52. > :16:01.don't want him. The whole thing is a farce. You have him who does not
:16:02. > :16:07.want this job and Mrs Merkel does not want him for the job. There is
:16:08. > :16:14.an element whereby the Germans are hoping that some kind of blocking
:16:15. > :16:19.coalition sort of emerges and I would, in the end, if you asked me
:16:20. > :16:23.at the weekend, I would have bet that someone who was at least more
:16:24. > :16:26.friendly to the British point of view might end up as the Commission
:16:27. > :16:32.President. Alright. Before we let you go. Who do you want to see as
:16:33. > :16:38.Commission President? I think we have got new member states from
:16:39. > :16:42.Central and Eastern Europe. They have many talents to implement the
:16:43. > :16:56.new spirit of Europe. OK. It is pretty clear we will not support
:16:57. > :17:07.Juncker. Maybe we will come up with a President from Eastern Europe.
:17:08. > :17:19.Richard Zilic would be a new face. Juncker is a representation of the
:17:20. > :17:21.old Europe. Alright. He would be a new face. We should think about
:17:22. > :17:26.something like that. OK. Thank you. Now, you'd be forgiven for thinking
:17:27. > :17:29.wranglings over who will be its next President may have stopped the
:17:30. > :17:32.European Commission from getting on with their day-to-day work, but have
:17:33. > :17:34.no fear - they've found the time to offer Britain some economic
:17:35. > :17:37.pointers. Every year the Commission offers
:17:38. > :17:40.member states advice on how to ensure long-term growth - and
:17:41. > :17:42.they've got some tips for David Cameron
:17:43. > :17:45.and George Osborne. The European Union's executive
:17:46. > :17:47.body has called on the UK to They say the UK should raise taxes
:17:48. > :17:53.on higher value properties and build more houses to "alleviate
:17:54. > :17:57.distortions in the housing market". And they recommend adjusting
:17:58. > :17:59.the Help to Buy scheme and revaluing council tax bands - which
:18:00. > :18:04.would put bills up for some people. Commission President Jose Manuel
:18:05. > :18:09.Barroso said he recognised the advice might be
:18:10. > :18:12."politically unpopular" but member states "must play their part
:18:13. > :18:16.in seeing these reforms through". The Treasury say they will listen
:18:17. > :18:20.to the Commission with interest. But,
:18:21. > :18:22.others have been less diplomatic. Conservative MP Dominic Raab said
:18:23. > :18:25.the Chancellor should treat the Commission's advice as "
:18:26. > :18:29.spam when it arrives in his inbox". So, is the Commission right to offer
:18:30. > :18:32.Britain advice on the economy? We can speak now to
:18:33. > :18:47.our political correspondent, Is this usually the way with the
:18:48. > :18:53.Commission to offer this sort of advice to nation states? It is. It
:18:54. > :18:59.is an annual process. It does coincide David Cameron lashing out
:19:00. > :19:04.at what he called "bossy Brussels". This morning it has been framed in
:19:05. > :19:10.some papers as an unwanted intrusion. This is an annual
:19:11. > :19:13.process. It is non-binding guidance and they are far less interested in
:19:14. > :19:20.what is going on in Britain than they are in other countries. France,
:19:21. > :19:25.a huge concern here in Europe. Its sluggish growth, high unemployment
:19:26. > :19:30.and the Commission says it needs dramatic structural economic reform
:19:31. > :19:33.urgently. Italy needs to embark on an accelerated programme of
:19:34. > :19:41.privatisation, so big stuff is being delivered to those capitals. In
:19:42. > :19:45.terms of Britain, the Commission shares the concerns of the Governor
:19:46. > :19:49.of the Bank of England and lots of politicians that it is getting very
:19:50. > :19:54.hot in London and the South East. It does recommend things like a
:19:55. > :20:00.restriction to the second phase of Help to Buy, more houses needs to be
:20:01. > :20:06.built. It gets into the contentious area of council tax banding, which
:20:07. > :20:15.has not been looked at since 1991. Alright. Thank you. Do you welcome
:20:16. > :20:32.the advice, Jacob Rees-Mogg? I think the response is it will heal thy
:20:33. > :20:36.self. It doesn't seem to be very intelligent of the European
:20:37. > :20:41.Commission... We had the great advantage that we had a loose
:20:42. > :20:49.monetary policy in return. Fiscal tightness and monetary tightness has
:20:50. > :21:01.been a disaster for the eurozone. They should have been more humble in
:21:02. > :21:06.their approach. They should not start telling HMG what they need to
:21:07. > :21:10.start to do. Are you saying our economy is fixed and we can be smug
:21:11. > :21:16.about it? It is a good deal better than what is going on in continental
:21:17. > :21:19.Europe. We have our own currency and that has allowed us to have a
:21:20. > :21:24.suitable monetary policy to go hand in hand with the fiscal tightness
:21:25. > :21:28.that we had. And that has left us in a much stronger position than
:21:29. > :21:33.France, or Italy, or Spain, or Greece. Monetary policy in the
:21:34. > :21:39.European Union is still set for Germany. Is it bad advice that they
:21:40. > :21:43.are giving you to stop the housing market, which John said is
:21:44. > :21:50.overheating in London, that could lead to the sort of conditions that
:21:51. > :21:56.resulted in the recession that started in 2008? Is that such bad
:21:57. > :22:01.advice? It is two bits of advice. One is to raise taxes, which is
:22:02. > :22:05.rotten advice. Increasing taxes on capital assets is bad advice because
:22:06. > :22:11.there is no liquidity to pay the tax. The other bit is motherhood and
:22:12. > :22:15.apple pie. Wouldn't it be nice to have an extremely stable housing
:22:16. > :22:19.market? Of course it would. If you stabilise the housing market by
:22:20. > :22:25.increasing interest rates, what affect do you have on businesses and
:22:26. > :22:32.on marginal mortgage borrowers? It is no good saying it would be nice
:22:33. > :22:36.if you did easy things. But the specific advice on raising taxation
:22:37. > :22:51.is bad advice. Is Jacob Rees-Mogg being oversensitive? A little. The
:22:52. > :22:55.fact is - it is a difficult thing for the Tories with the European
:22:56. > :23:00.Commission. If you look at what most of us - we also oppose being part of
:23:01. > :23:04.the euro. We want a much bigger single market. The only people who
:23:05. > :23:07.are likely to get that delivered is the Commission. We are stuck in this
:23:08. > :23:12.position that we - there is some stuff which the Commission is doing.
:23:13. > :23:16.All the advice they are giving now - I agree, they haven't always given
:23:17. > :23:32.perfect advice. But most of the advice they are giving is on the
:23:33. > :23:38.good side. Right. Let's say you are being a bit oversensitive. If you
:23:39. > :23:41.listen to the Governor of the Bank of England, he's broadly said many
:23:42. > :23:45.of the same things that have come from the Commission. Is it your
:23:46. > :23:48.problem with Europe and its institutions saying these things
:23:49. > :23:57.rather than what they are saying? You have to be careful about the
:23:58. > :24:02.message and the effect the message has. We have to report back in a
:24:03. > :24:07.year's time. The European Commission will visit the UK three times to see
:24:08. > :24:11.whether we are following their recommendations or not. So, it is
:24:12. > :24:15.right to be a bit sensitive that this is an ability of the Commission
:24:16. > :24:19.to interfere in something that is central to national sovereignty and
:24:20. > :24:23.where their advice has not worked in other countries. It is only advice.
:24:24. > :24:30.It is only advice. It is not the same as - in fact, Osborne has said
:24:31. > :24:34.- I don't think there is a lot George Osborne would disagree with.
:24:35. > :24:40.What you really want is within the eurozone, you want them to have a
:24:41. > :24:47.much stronger role. Alright. That would be a better Europe. Briefly?
:24:48. > :24:52.Euro needs to revert to national currencies. Would you put the advice
:24:53. > :24:56.in "spam"? That is a brilliant recommendation. Thank you.
:24:57. > :24:58.Now, last week Vince Cable's friend, Lord Oakeshott, was at the centre
:24:59. > :25:00.of a botched plot to remove Nick Clegg as Lib Dem leader.
:25:01. > :25:03.This morning Nick Clegg was trying to show there were no hard feelings
:25:04. > :25:20.Is this all kiss and make up? Jo, I'm not to be found at pubs at
:25:21. > :25:24.midday on Tuesday! I'm here because of those Liberal Democrats who
:25:25. > :25:28.staged this pub press event for us to see how well Vince Cable and Nick
:25:29. > :25:33.Clegg are now getting on. They tried to resolve their differences over
:25:34. > :25:38.this pint of London Pride! The two of them sat down inside the pub, sat
:25:39. > :25:42.rather sheepishly together like a couple on a first date and tried to
:25:43. > :25:48.make small-talk while we were peering in the window to see what
:25:49. > :25:52.was going on. Notionally, they were here to flag up a new scheme for a
:25:53. > :25:58.Code of Conduct for publicans who get into difficulties with their
:25:59. > :26:01.breweries. This was like ye olde Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
:26:02. > :26:06.ice-cream moment, a press stunt to flag up how well they were getting
:26:07. > :26:11.on. Along they came, they sat down, Nick Clegg bought Vince Cable a
:26:12. > :26:15.London Pride. He had a pint of Archers Mild. I'm told Vince Cable
:26:16. > :26:20.did finish his pint and Nick Clegg didn't finish his. They sat in there
:26:21. > :26:24.for 45 minutes wondering how they were going to get out without having
:26:25. > :26:29.to confront the press scrum. The traffic was so bad they had a Walk
:26:30. > :26:34.of Shame of 50 yards before they could get into a car. Out they came
:26:35. > :26:38.with their Special Branch, surrounded by cameras, we were
:26:39. > :26:42.bombarding them with questions about were they best pals, when was the
:26:43. > :26:46.last time they went to a pub - they said nothing. They looked a bit
:26:47. > :26:52.embarrassed, smiled, got into the car and headed off. I'm surprised
:26:53. > :27:00.they didn't say anything(!) At least they didn't spill your pint! Are you
:27:01. > :27:05.convinced that there is a proper rapprochement? Well, I would think
:27:06. > :27:09.Nick Clegg will be just looking over his shoulder at Vince Cable for a
:27:10. > :27:17.long time to come. Although we have had the protestations of them
:27:18. > :27:21.believing Vince Cable, that he had nothing to do with it. There has to
:27:22. > :27:26.be a suspicion. Paddy Ashdown, the man who threatened to cut off Lord
:27:27. > :27:38.Oakeshott's delicate parts, when he was interviewed at the weekend he
:27:39. > :27:48.warned about how you have to be careful who your Yargos are. I like
:27:49. > :27:51.that characterisation. Despite the disastrous election results for the
:27:52. > :27:59.Liberal Democrats, will the party stick with Nick Clegg? Well, we are
:28:00. > :28:04.told that there is a growing number of local parties who are preparing
:28:05. > :28:07.to hold emergency meetings to consider the future of Nick Clegg.
:28:08. > :28:13.When you talk to those around Nick Clegg they say that is just because
:28:14. > :28:16.the Liberal Democrats like to discuss everything. When you talk to
:28:17. > :28:19.more critical elements, they say that is because there is a
:28:20. > :28:23.groundswell of deep unease about where Nick Clegg is leading his
:28:24. > :28:26.party and a growing fear that they are heading to the buffers at
:28:27. > :28:30.high-speed at the next election. What we don't know is whether there
:28:31. > :28:35.will be enough parties to reach a fairly high threshold - you have to
:28:36. > :28:40.get 75 local parties demanding an emergency conference to trigger that
:28:41. > :28:45.whole leadership contest. It is a high bar that has to be reached. So
:28:46. > :28:47.far, there have only been a few dozen parties coming up with the
:28:48. > :28:51.idea of holding an emergency meeting. Thank you.
:28:52. > :28:55.Are established Western economies being overtaken by the fast-growing
:28:56. > :28:57.emerging economic powerhouses in Asia and elsewhere in the world?
:28:58. > :28:59.Our Guest of the Day - John Micklethwait -
:29:00. > :29:02.has just written a book asking just that question - and whether we need
:29:03. > :29:06.to rethink the nature of the Western nation state to compete.
:29:07. > :29:09.One of the countries cited by John as a competitive threat is China.
:29:10. > :29:12.Let's speak to the BBC's China editor, Carrie Gracie,
:29:13. > :29:21.Welcome to the programme. The growth of the Chinese economy has slowed a
:29:22. > :29:28.bit. Are there concerns about the way the economy is growing? There
:29:29. > :29:32.are. China has an asset bubble. It is worried about how to deal with
:29:33. > :29:38.that. It is trying to bring growth in this year at 7.5%. That is a
:29:39. > :29:44.growth rate that many would envy. That still represents a difficult
:29:45. > :29:47.compromise between keeping growth meaningful and not having too many
:29:48. > :29:51.people out of work which presents of course a political threat. If they
:29:52. > :29:59.get too many people on the breadline. Economically, they have
:30:00. > :30:02.their response to the global financial crisis, was to put in a
:30:03. > :30:06.big stimulus. They have, as a result of that, got a problem with the
:30:07. > :30:13.property bubble. They have got lots of non-performing investment. They
:30:14. > :30:16.have got lots of ghost cities. Oversized savings ratio and a
:30:17. > :30:20.problem with consumption and they are trying to rebalance that. As the
:30:21. > :30:25.President himself says, economic reform is entering a deep water
:30:26. > :30:27.terrain and the difficulty is tackling vested interests in the
:30:28. > :30:38.state-owned enterprises. democracy can sometimes be an
:30:39. > :30:42.impediment to growth, is that why, in your view, China has been able to
:30:43. > :30:50.grow so successfully despite the concerns you set out there? That is
:30:51. > :30:55.a very large question and there are many different answers to it. I
:30:56. > :30:58.would say that the current situation in China, the politics of China,
:30:59. > :31:05.where we are just about to mark the 25th anniversary of the Tiananmen
:31:06. > :31:10.Square democracy protests and the crackdown on those protests, and
:31:11. > :31:15.since then China has had a politics where it may not speak its name. You
:31:16. > :31:19.have politics where the Chinese government says it wants the rule of
:31:20. > :31:24.law but is locking up lawyers. You can't have a functioning 21st
:31:25. > :31:29.economy without effective law but increasingly, the problem is that
:31:30. > :31:35.the party is controlling the economy and the law itself. It is conflicted
:31:36. > :31:41.and paradoxical state on that and a number of other issues. It says it
:31:42. > :31:44.wants to deal with corruption but locks of those who try to campaign
:31:45. > :31:57.on par-4 whistle-blowers. The question of what kind of politics
:31:58. > :32:00.can't be answered simply. Joining John now is the Economist Will
:32:01. > :32:06.Hutton. Welcome to the programme. In your view, what is the reason for
:32:07. > :32:10.the West's decline? Should we try to mimic what is going on in China?
:32:11. > :32:13.Certainly not, in the sense of ruling pushing democracy. What the
:32:14. > :32:18.book is about is not really the economy but about government. Our
:32:19. > :32:23.argument is that if you went back to 1600, you would have bet on China
:32:24. > :32:29.being the future. They have the most advanced government in the world
:32:30. > :32:34.with 3000 civil servants in the city. That was given anywhere in
:32:35. > :32:38.Europe. Ever since then, the West has had a series of revolutions in
:32:39. > :32:42.government, to do with security and liberalism and the welfare state,
:32:43. > :32:45.and each time we jump forward. What is interesting about what is
:32:46. > :32:49.happening in China now is that having caught up economically, they
:32:50. > :32:53.are now trying to look for ways to catch up politically and make their
:32:54. > :32:57.government work better. Some of that is authoritarian but looking at
:32:58. > :32:59.places like Sweden, not a particularly authoritarian Place,
:33:00. > :33:06.London, not particularly authoritarian, and Singapore,
:33:07. > :33:09.looking for new ways to try to catch up because their view is that they
:33:10. > :33:12.used to be the best at government, we got much better and now they are
:33:13. > :33:16.in a contest. From our point of view, the danger is not that China
:33:17. > :33:20.is particularly great but much more that we're the equivalent of the
:33:21. > :33:29.Cyclopedia Britannica, sitting there worrying about other reference
:33:30. > :33:34.books, and what is going to eat our lunch is Wikipedia. You mentioned
:33:35. > :33:39.how bad the Chinese authoritarian thing is but would you rather be a
:33:40. > :33:42.poor person in China or in India? Will Hutton, which would you rather
:33:43. > :33:48.have been? I want to talk about bloated government. That is what
:33:49. > :33:51.many Conservatives and I think you also point to as holding that
:33:52. > :33:58.growth. It is an extraordinary prison to look at both now and in
:33:59. > :34:07.the last 250 years. -- prism. If I had to explain why things have gone
:34:08. > :34:17.up in the West, I would not let the government. I would argue that the
:34:18. > :34:22.reason is that we had the European argument and we had things that
:34:23. > :34:27.would best marshal the fruits of technology. I don't think the reason
:34:28. > :34:31.why we're in trouble at the minute is because of bloated government. I
:34:32. > :34:38.think it's because we miss organise institutions of capitalism. I think
:34:39. > :34:41.corporations without owners who have become pay owners for top executives
:34:42. > :34:45.who don't invest in R and innovation, not thinking about what
:34:46. > :34:51.the structures are that support innovation and investment, turning a
:34:52. > :34:54.blind eye to any quality and the dealer Tories affect that has on
:34:55. > :35:00.growth, have been what we should be worrying about. Bloated government
:35:01. > :35:03.is not brilliant and obviously, as he says in his book with his
:35:04. > :35:07.colleague, responsive government is better than the alternative to put
:35:08. > :35:10.that top of your list is a category error. You've made a category
:35:11. > :35:19.error. It isn't about bloated government. I would argue that it
:35:20. > :35:21.sits at the bottom at the moment. You look at the European elections
:35:22. > :35:25.we just had and what is going to happen in America in the midterms,
:35:26. > :35:29.people are streaming to the polls and they have two feelings. One is
:35:30. > :35:32.that they're furious with their governments but the other is that
:35:33. > :35:37.they expect nothing to change and the lesson of our book is to look at
:35:38. > :35:40.history and government can change fairly dramatically when it wants
:35:41. > :35:45.to. That is something it can do again. One of the reasons why people
:35:46. > :35:49.don't believe it's worthwhile voting is because they don't think there is
:35:50. > :35:52.going to be change. The reason they don't think there is going to be
:35:53. > :35:56.changes because the discourse is entirely about if vision is,
:35:57. > :36:07.privatisation, deregulation, good housekeeping, austerity, not about
:36:08. > :36:10.fairness etc. I think democracy has been denuded because the only
:36:11. > :36:14.paradigms in which the argument takes place is the one you occupy
:36:15. > :36:19.and the one you occupied for my money is making a category error. I
:36:20. > :36:23.think the idea that fairness is not part of the political debate is
:36:24. > :36:26.rubbish. You look at the race in America between Obama and Romney and
:36:27. > :36:34.fairness was possibly the biggest single issue. It's just coming back.
:36:35. > :36:42.It's a sensation because it is so unusual. There are many more books
:36:43. > :36:47.about fairness and inequality. You are the last-gasp of the old. In
:36:48. > :36:52.terms of admiring other economies, you can't deny the growth rate in a
:36:53. > :37:00.country like China. Under Chairman Mao, the growth rate from 1949 to
:37:01. > :37:07.1976 in China was 4.6%. It's very hard in China to get the growth rate
:37:08. > :37:11.much under 5%. I don't take the view of looking open-mouthed at China. I
:37:12. > :37:15.think the fact that it isn't a rule of Law Society... There are things
:37:16. > :37:18.like patents and property rights, being able to do banking where you
:37:19. > :37:26.can get your money back, the scope of corruption... I agree with all
:37:27. > :37:33.that. You cannot see it through just the prism of the growth
:37:34. > :37:46.that. You cannot see it through just Singapore is more democratic.
:37:47. > :37:50.that. You cannot see it through just in Singapore, you
:37:51. > :38:03.litigiousness. China's problem is inequality.
:38:04. > :38:05.litigiousness. China's problem is wealth of the top 50 people in the
:38:06. > :38:13.national People's Congress is $50 billion. They are trying to compete
:38:14. > :38:17.at government and from their point of view, this was the thing they
:38:18. > :38:19.think they were really good at. The thing about places
:38:20. > :38:21.think they were really good at. The that they've managed to combine all
:38:22. > :38:25.those things while having much better services. The
:38:26. > :38:28.those things while having much to ask is, you look at Singapore and
:38:29. > :38:30.those things while having much there is some stuff about Asian
:38:31. > :38:33.values but fundamentally, it does deliver twice as good schools,
:38:34. > :38:38.values but fundamentally, it does as good hospitals, twice as good
:38:39. > :38:45.welfare for half the money. Last point.
:38:46. > :38:51.responsive government. I championed this throughout my
:38:52. > :38:55.re-engineering that one would have re-engineering that one would have
:38:56. > :38:58.to do, I'm completely with you. But I won't do it because I want
:38:59. > :39:03.government to do stuff, not just with schools. I want the government
:39:04. > :39:06.to engage with the underlying structures of our companies, our
:39:07. > :39:08.to engage with the underlying financial system, the
:39:09. > :39:14.to engage with the underlying innovate, not just the problems of
:39:15. > :39:24.the public realm. I think the way to revived tomography is that way.
:39:25. > :39:25.If you are a student watching this in England or Wales,
:39:26. > :39:30.you may want to ask yourself, are you getting value for money for
:39:31. > :39:34.Because it seems an increasing number of you feel you aren't.
:39:35. > :39:37.The BBC has compiled responses from 120 universities across the UK
:39:38. > :39:40.and has found that more than 20,000 students complained about
:39:41. > :39:44.And the total number of academic appeals and complaints
:39:45. > :39:47.rose 10% in the two years following the rise in fees, despite the
:39:48. > :39:52.So are the universities getting worse or have the students simply
:39:53. > :39:55.had enough of poor standards now they are paying for it?
:39:56. > :40:05.He runs the higher education consumer website Student Hut.
:40:06. > :40:12.Damn, were you surprised by the numbers? I was a little bit
:40:13. > :40:17.surprised and shocked, yes. -- Dan, were you surprised. The fact that
:40:18. > :40:20.students now pay ?9,000 year means they are going to be in increasing
:40:21. > :40:25.levels of debt which they will be paying off over years. I can see why
:40:26. > :40:29.people are taking that decision seriously and expecting more from
:40:30. > :40:33.their education. In some ways, that is hardly a surprise. They are going
:40:34. > :40:38.to want value for money but they clearly don't think they are getting
:40:39. > :40:43.it. That's right. We did a survey of our users and we got over 3400
:40:44. > :40:46.responses and we were quite surprised by some of the findings,
:40:47. > :40:52.in terms of the top complaints of the students. We found that nearly
:40:53. > :40:57.20% of students actually had the complaint that teaching standards
:40:58. > :41:00.were poor at a university. This is a big investment of money and time and
:41:01. > :41:04.that clearly isn't good enough and needs to be improved, in my
:41:05. > :41:08.opinion. Other complaints we had were that 29% of students surveys
:41:09. > :41:12.felt they needed more contact hours and 30% of students felt there
:41:13. > :41:16.wasn't enough emphasis on gaining real world experience. Obviously
:41:17. > :41:21.they're looking ahead to the jobs market when they leave university
:41:22. > :41:24.with their degrees. Is this a case, do you think, standards getting
:41:25. > :41:28.worse or just because students are now paying those fees, they feel
:41:29. > :41:32.they have a right to complain? I think people are taking the decision
:41:33. > :41:36.more seriously than ever before and rightly so. I advise prospective
:41:37. > :41:43.students and parents to take that decision more seriously. First of
:41:44. > :41:46.all, should I go to university? How will it benefit me? It isn't for
:41:47. > :41:50.everybody. People need to take the decision of the course they choose
:41:51. > :41:54.very seriously, rather than just floating into university. There are
:41:55. > :42:00.a number of ways of looking into the cause you can choose. Universities
:42:01. > :42:04.provide information on a number of -- the number of contact hours and
:42:05. > :42:07.how you will be assessed but another great factor is the fat that
:42:08. > :42:15.students can see what previous students have said in comments
:42:16. > :42:19.online. Thank you very much. The universities minister David Willetts
:42:20. > :42:21.joins us now. Were you shocked and surprised by
:42:22. > :42:28.the numbers of students complaining, with 20% of the
:42:29. > :42:31.students in the survey we talked about complaining that teaching was
:42:32. > :42:36.when they are playing up to ?9,000 a year. They are not paying up front.
:42:37. > :42:41.But students are more and more demanding and quite rightly so. The
:42:42. > :42:45.fact is, in the old system, universities were competing
:42:46. > :42:48.intensely on research quality and not paying attention to the quality
:42:49. > :42:53.of the teaching experience for students. They have to raise their
:42:54. > :42:59.game and now students can say that with ?9,000 of resource behind them,
:43:00. > :43:03.what are they getting? But isn't that the problem? The market isn't
:43:04. > :43:07.working, is it, because if everybody, or certainly a large
:43:08. > :43:12.percentage of good universities are charging top dollar, ?9,000 a year,
:43:13. > :43:16.as you say funded by the taxpayer at the moment, and some of them are
:43:17. > :43:21.offering below par teaching, there is nowhere else to go, is there?
:43:22. > :43:24.When we look at the trends, what is happening - slowly, but happening -
:43:25. > :43:29.is that the amount of hours of teaching is going up. You've got
:43:30. > :43:33.evidence to show that, have you? The number of classes in small groups is
:43:34. > :43:36.going up and universities are saying there is a massive cultural change
:43:37. > :43:40.going on and they are now focusing on the quality of teaching
:43:41. > :43:42.experience. But there are large numbers of students who have not
:43:43. > :43:49.historically have the quality of teaching they are inclined to expect
:43:50. > :43:53.but I think students are now far more demanding than ever before and
:43:54. > :43:56.quite rightly so. But at the moment, sitting here now, would you say that
:43:57. > :44:02.all those universities charging ?9,000 a year are value for money? I
:44:03. > :44:07.think going to university is, for many people, a fantastic experience
:44:08. > :44:10.and very worthwhile but I do think universities need to raise their
:44:11. > :44:15.game and improve the quality of the teaching experience. But is it right
:44:16. > :44:20.that the taxpayer is having to foot this bill, certainly temporarily, if
:44:21. > :44:28.they're not now offering value for money because you are one in 150
:44:29. > :44:32.people sitting in a big lecture hall with a teacher that isn't making the
:44:33. > :44:38.mark. You aren't sitting in a one in three tutorial. What happens, and
:44:39. > :44:42.when I talk to the student unions, this is what they talk about now, is
:44:43. > :44:47.that they say, there is this resource going in and how many hours
:44:48. > :44:50.of teaching are we getting? My view is that the argument about the level
:44:51. > :44:56.of these is one of the things that empowers students and enables them
:44:57. > :44:58.to expect more. Increasingly, as our requirements on universities to
:44:59. > :45:02.produce information on all these crucial benchmarks but Boorman is
:45:03. > :45:05.becomes available on websites and all kinds of advertising the
:45:06. > :45:09.websites like the one you've been talking to, students will be able to
:45:10. > :45:15.choose the university that offers them the best quality teaching
:45:16. > :45:22.experience. Students can compete and grow if they have more students who
:45:23. > :45:30.want to go to them. I come back to the market. They can't charge more
:45:31. > :45:36.at the moment and the others are still charging the top whack. It is
:45:37. > :45:42.part of a great sorting out. It is going back to the argument with Will
:45:43. > :45:45.Hutton and me and my book. You look at America, exactly the same thing
:45:46. > :45:50.is happening. Students are complaining and saying, "We are not
:45:51. > :45:54.getting value for money." That's correct. People need to really
:45:55. > :45:59.carefully look at exactly how good their universities are. The other
:46:00. > :46:02.thing is, in the end, it looks evermore likely that bad
:46:03. > :46:06.universities will be replaced by things on the internet and the
:46:07. > :46:10.really valuable bit of the universities, the tuition bit, will
:46:11. > :46:14.go towards individuals. Are tuition fees working? They are generally
:46:15. > :46:19.working. They are giving people some idea of a value attached to this. It
:46:20. > :46:24.is wrong fundamentally, if you don't go to university, you are more
:46:25. > :46:29.likely to end up poorer. It is bad that people, from that end, end up
:46:30. > :46:34.subsidising people like all us three who went to university. John is
:46:35. > :46:38.right. If graduates end up in well-paid jobs, they should pay
:46:39. > :46:41.back. The competition between universities is not simply on the
:46:42. > :46:46.level of fees. A student who said, "I'm going to..." That is what they
:46:47. > :46:48.are looking at. There is a big difference to putting the money on
:46:49. > :46:52.the table before you start and paying it back. Competition is
:46:53. > :46:55.between the universities as to which university the student chooses and
:46:56. > :47:02.the way we are changing the system - it is in the spirit of John's
:47:03. > :47:08.excellent book - it is to put more pressure... I can see all this came
:47:09. > :47:11.about! Now, we have got, now that they can choose, universities are
:47:12. > :47:15.competing on quality. As the students don't pay the money
:47:16. > :47:19.upfront, students that say, "I'm going to save money and go to
:47:20. > :47:24.university." That isn't how the system works. They can say, "We want
:47:25. > :47:28.a high quality experience." And the next generation students will be
:47:29. > :47:34.able to choose the universities that offer them best quality. If you get
:47:35. > :47:39.so many complaints, if there are so many students unhappy, will you put
:47:40. > :47:43.pressure on those institutions who come up with the most criticised by
:47:44. > :47:48.students for not high enough standards? There is an independent
:47:49. > :47:51.body. They ultimately receive the complaints. They publish the
:47:52. > :47:56.information about the breakdown of complaints, the type of complaints.
:47:57. > :48:00.There is no sanction? They can. Behind this, there is the power of
:48:01. > :48:05.law. Ultimately, the fees are a contract to deliver a service, so
:48:06. > :48:12.the OIA has real clout and if a university lets a student down by
:48:13. > :48:18.poor quality teaching, the OIA can ask the university to change its
:48:19. > :48:22.practices. You heard it here. John has an interesting job proposition
:48:23. > :48:26.for you. I spent the weekend with a wide variety of Europeans and
:48:27. > :48:29.British Tories and when asked who should be the next British
:48:30. > :48:33.Commissioner for Europe, there was support for you. Something to think
:48:34. > :48:37.about when you leave the studio. Thank you very much for joining us.
:48:38. > :48:39.Has the death of the dead tree press been exaggerated?
:48:40. > :48:42.With the arrival of free news on the internet, why would you pay
:48:43. > :48:48.Well, some of us still are as Adam's been finding out.
:48:49. > :48:54.On the outside, a normal newsagent. Inside, one of the biggest
:48:55. > :49:00.selections of papers and magazines you will find. More than 3,000 of
:49:01. > :49:03.them. So, a good place to ponder the issues facing print which all seem
:49:04. > :49:11.to involve the internet. Lately, the big news has been about this big
:49:12. > :49:15.paper, The Venerable New York Times. According to an internal document,
:49:16. > :49:21.it doesn't look so venerable on the web. The report found that only 30%
:49:22. > :49:25.of online users ever read the home page, while the newsroom was
:49:26. > :49:29.obsessed with what was on page one of the newspaper. Incompatible. They
:49:30. > :49:34.also found that sometimes people read New York Times content more
:49:35. > :49:40.when it was on other people's websites. An article about the death
:49:41. > :49:45.of Nelson Mandela which appeared on the Huffington Post. Then there's
:49:46. > :49:49.staff. The report was filled with killer quotes from journalists who
:49:50. > :49:52.left the paper and digital journalists who turned down job at
:49:53. > :49:57.the paper because they thought it was a bit rubbish. Here, newspapers
:49:58. > :50:09.are still working out how to prosper online and off. The Times has an
:50:10. > :50:16.absolute paywal - you pay to read everything on line. No one is sure
:50:17. > :50:28.what will work best. A scary time to launch a new title, eh? Not for this
:50:29. > :50:34.woman. It is so posh it makes Horse and Hound look like Heat magazine.
:50:35. > :50:39.Social media is important. The online version of Town and Country
:50:40. > :50:42.is important. We do have a website, a digital version. We have a Twitter
:50:43. > :50:46.account. All of that is important. It is part of a conversation, it is
:50:47. > :50:52.not the only bit of the conversation. There is something
:50:53. > :51:02.authentic and you can hold this. It means something. It is not
:51:03. > :51:06.disposable. The team also produces Harpers bazaar. Maybe things aren't
:51:07. > :51:11.so bleak after all. There is a place for excellence, there is a place for
:51:12. > :51:15.quality. And the market appears to be bearing that out. I think it all
:51:16. > :51:20.adds up to if your newspaper or magazine is good, you might be OK in
:51:21. > :51:24.the modern world. But it's a bewildering time to be a journalist.
:51:25. > :51:33.Anyway, I'm off to read about the inner life of Lazy Rose! -- Lady
:51:34. > :51:36.Rose! John, the Economist is one of the few news publications where your
:51:37. > :51:42.circulation has gone up, how have you managed that? We have tried to
:51:43. > :51:48.find people who will pay for it. You heard that there. The debate - he is
:51:49. > :51:51.right - this is the biggest debate, you look at the New York Times memo,
:51:52. > :51:55.it made substantial doubts about whether the New York Times bundle,
:51:56. > :51:59.which is what they try and pay for, can keep going. So many people go to
:52:00. > :52:02.websites and it applies to us as well, they come through social
:52:03. > :52:07.feeds, so they don't go to your home page, they don't go to our channel
:52:08. > :52:13.pages, they come through Facebook, through Twitter. Yes. What is
:52:14. > :52:16.interesting is the lady at the end, with the glossy Town and Country,
:52:17. > :52:20.there are some bits of the advertising market which are still
:52:21. > :52:25.holding up. No one model is right, is it? It is fair to say that people
:52:26. > :52:33.predicted the end of daily newspapers - and their circulation
:52:34. > :52:37.has gone down in some cases. The Economist is different. It is not a
:52:38. > :52:43.daily. And we are talking from quite a small base to start with. So, you
:52:44. > :52:46.could say you only had up to go? No, you could say that our base is
:52:47. > :52:50.larger than all the quality newspapers in Britain put together.
:52:51. > :52:54.Worldwide. Well, compared - worldwide, we do have a bigger
:52:55. > :52:59.circulation, 1.6 million is not a small number. The reason though is
:53:00. > :53:04.that most people are pushing towards roughly the same area. The web
:53:05. > :53:08.arrived, everyone went free and a lot of us realised that was a
:53:09. > :53:13.mistake and particularly with the arrival of apps, of iPads, the
:53:14. > :53:18.Kindles, a tablet, so many people are reading what we have on either
:53:19. > :53:22.phones, or tablets, and that is the new problem. That is particularly
:53:23. > :53:26.what's happening hitting magazines, particularly what is happening with
:53:27. > :53:29.newspapers. The main time when people are reading the New York
:53:30. > :53:33.Times was on a smartphone. You need to come up with new products to
:53:34. > :53:37.adjust to that. This, at least, what is happening, the good news - and
:53:38. > :53:41.the New York Times is an example of this so far - is that people have
:53:42. > :53:45.found a way to make people pay for things on those gadgets in a way
:53:46. > :53:49.they haven't on the web. Right. The web, people still want things for
:53:50. > :53:51.free. When you get an app, you tend to be much happier about paying.
:53:52. > :53:55.Let's leave it there. Now, MPs and Lords are preparing to
:53:56. > :53:57.battle it out tonight in a tug-of-war and, no, that's not
:53:58. > :54:00.a metaphor. They'll be raising money for
:54:01. > :54:10.charity, and Giles is on the Green It has to be said, there are a
:54:11. > :54:17.number of events that the Lords and MPs tussle over. There's the dog
:54:18. > :54:21.competition, there is also the pancake race, which the Lords won.
:54:22. > :54:25.The tug-of-war is a feature. I hate myself for taking part in several of
:54:26. > :54:29.them. Usually, I ended up damaged! I'm not going to take part this year
:54:30. > :54:36.because I have put my back out. I am here with - we have the Lords - the
:54:37. > :54:43.anchorman, Lord Kennedy, you are very much part of the team. How many
:54:44. > :54:50.times? Four times now. You are the anchorman for the men's MPs? Not
:54:51. > :54:56.wearing the T-shirt at the moment. Couldn't get it in the suitcase! The
:54:57. > :55:04.ladies' tug-of-war team, they do put in all the effort. They have not
:55:05. > :55:11.been that successful? No, I understand the McMillan Ladies have
:55:12. > :55:15.been practising for weeks and my team have done no preparation at
:55:16. > :55:21.all. I suspect this is probably why our track record... All trains lead
:55:22. > :55:26.to Newark! This is probably why we don't have a glorious record. It is
:55:27. > :55:30.not a glorious record. A little bit of technique. This is the grudge
:55:31. > :55:36.match. It really is. Who is going to win this year? It was 1-1 at one
:55:37. > :55:41.stage last year. The Commons always beats the Lords in the end. It was
:55:42. > :55:47.2-1 last year. We won the rowing this year. We are going for the
:55:48. > :55:52.tug-of-war. I think you need to pull it out and show us. It is not just
:55:53. > :55:56.about pulling. There is technique. Let's have a pre-grudge match here.
:55:57. > :56:03.Go for it! They are supposed to get as low to the ground as possible.
:56:04. > :56:09.That is very cruel. Not showing a great deal of technique, but they do
:56:10. > :56:17.this every year raising a lot of money, which is why you are happy to
:56:18. > :56:24.do this. The effort is all in his face! We shall try and show that for
:56:25. > :56:27.you this year. It's the Queen's Speech tomorrow. We will try and get
:56:28. > :56:31.you some pictures and show you them on Thursday. I bet you are sad you
:56:32. > :56:34.are missing out. I am. Never mind. There saulz next year. -- there is
:56:35. > :56:39.always next year. There's just time before we go to
:56:40. > :56:41.find out the answer to our quiz. The question was
:56:42. > :56:43.which person is the odd one out? a) George Osborne, b) Ed Balls, c)
:56:44. > :56:59.Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, I think it is Ed Balls, for which I
:57:00. > :57:02.have to thank the Guardian. We all went to the Bilderberg Conference in
:57:03. > :57:09.Copenhagen. He didn't have a ticket and was unable to get in.
:57:10. > :57:11.The answer is that they all went to the secretive Bilderberg Conference
:57:12. > :57:15.last weekend, but Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls was the only one to be
:57:16. > :57:20.refused entry because he'd forgotten his pass.
:57:21. > :57:25.Here he is having his "senior moment".
:57:26. > :57:39.But, clearly, the security didn't know who our very own
:57:40. > :57:44.Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls was - despite a passport being offered.
:57:45. > :57:47.And as with us all, Ed, if you don't have the right ID
:57:48. > :57:54.He did manage to get in later, I am told.
:57:55. > :58:01.What was it like? It is interesting. Journalists ask me why do you go to
:58:02. > :58:04.these off-the-record things. It is a chance to talk to politicians, to
:58:05. > :58:08.business people. You go there and you don't talk about it! Beyond
:58:09. > :58:12.that, I can't say much. They debate things in the same way as any
:58:13. > :58:19.conference. What about the mix of people? The mix of people is from
:58:20. > :58:23.Europe and from America. So it tends to be people from - there's a degree
:58:24. > :58:26.of business people and politicians. You had both. It is a place - they
:58:27. > :58:30.probably won't like me for saying this, it is a place where you can
:58:31. > :58:36.see George Osborne and Ed Balls having a drink quite normally. That
:58:37. > :58:37.is not a bad thing. There is a revelation! They are normal!
:58:38. > :58:43.Thangss. -- thanks. Thanks to our guests - especially
:58:44. > :58:48.John for being our Guest of the Day. The One O'Clock News is
:58:49. > :58:53.starting over on BBC One now.