:00:37. > :00:38.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:44.David Cameron's breathing a sigh of relief this morning.
:00:45. > :00:48.The Tory party held onto the safe seat of Newark last night,
:00:49. > :00:52.UKIP did well, pushing Labour into third place.
:00:53. > :00:59.The Liberal Democrats came a distant 6th.
:01:00. > :01:07.Emotional scenes here and in France as thousands gather to mark
:01:08. > :01:11.Better together - President Obama wades into the campaign
:01:12. > :01:19.And as Michael Gove and Teresa May fight it out over extremism
:01:20. > :01:28.in our schools we ask what should be done about it.
:01:29. > :01:34.And with us for the duration, in a fitting tribute to
:01:35. > :01:37.the 70th anniversary of D-Day we have our very own entente cordiale.
:01:38. > :01:42.The UK Correspondent from France 24, Benedicte Paviot,
:01:43. > :01:45.and from the New Statesman, although he's about to jump ship
:01:46. > :01:54.First to D-Day, because ceremonies are taking place in Normandy today
:01:55. > :01:58.to mark the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings, the Allied mission
:01:59. > :02:01.that changed the course of the Second World War, leading to the
:02:02. > :02:11.With a little help, of course, from the Russians.
:02:12. > :02:14.Nearly 20 world leaders, including the Queen and President Obama, and
:02:15. > :02:17.hundreds of veterans will attend the main commemoration on Sword Beach,
:02:18. > :02:23.The day's events began at midnight with a vigil at the Pegasus Bridge,
:02:24. > :02:27.the strategic crossing captured by airborne British forces
:02:28. > :02:34.before the assault on the French coast on the 6th June 1944.
:02:35. > :02:36.In the last hour there's been a ceremony at the
:02:37. > :02:45.Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery in Bayeux.
:02:46. > :02:48.The Commonwealth forces were deeply involved in D-Day along with the
:02:49. > :02:58.David Cameron was there - here's what he had to say.
:02:59. > :03:04.It was incredibly moving. I was at the spot where one of the gliders
:03:05. > :03:07.landed to take the bridge. There was a sense of history but also for my
:03:08. > :03:13.generation, a sense of humility. We have never had to do anything like
:03:14. > :03:17.what our grandfathers' generation did. It is awe-inspiring and it
:03:18. > :03:20.gives you a sense of humility. Above all it gives you a sense of
:03:21. > :03:27.extraordinary gratitude for what these amazingly brave people dead.
:03:28. > :03:33.David Cameron in Normandy. This is a very important day for France as
:03:34. > :03:37.well as for Britain and the other allies. Is it bittersweet for the
:03:38. > :03:40.French in the sense that it was the beginning of their liberation but
:03:41. > :03:46.also a reminder that they had been under Nazi occupation for four
:03:47. > :03:50.years? It has been bittersweet, but I do not think it's bittersweet
:03:51. > :03:55.really now. I think that it's deeply moving and I sense, since I am
:03:56. > :04:02.reporting on it from the British side at the moment, a real sense of
:04:03. > :04:06.gratitude. A sense of gratitude and respect and honour for the Queen,
:04:07. > :04:11.who is of course from that generation. She was 18 years old.
:04:12. > :04:22.There is a deep affection in France for the Queen herself, a great
:04:23. > :04:25.interest, as you well know, for the British royal family. There is deep
:04:26. > :04:32.gratitude, deep respect and the highest honours are being awarded.
:04:33. > :04:38.She is described as being awarded the biggest unrivalled respect from
:04:39. > :04:41.the French president, being accompanied everywhere by the
:04:42. > :04:47.President will stop I saw that yesterday at the Arc de Triomphe.
:04:48. > :04:54.The French threw everything at it, didn't they? I thought that the God
:04:55. > :04:59.Save The Queen was beautifully sung. Again, it reminds us of our common
:05:00. > :05:02.past. There was a huge gratitude to the Allied troops, all that
:05:03. > :05:08.planning, so money lives lost, so many people throwing themselves on
:05:09. > :05:12.embarking on is that were hardly see where the sometimes. They were
:05:13. > :05:17.18-year-old who sacrificed their lives, who were maimed for life, who
:05:18. > :05:29.have come back and not spoken about what they endured. We have heard
:05:30. > :05:33.someone say that the heroes are the ones who are dead. Some of those
:05:34. > :05:39.heroes are today on French beaches and me that remind our generation
:05:40. > :05:45.not to go traipsing into war and to try and avert it in every way.
:05:46. > :05:50.Actually, the finding of the common market and the EU really is built on
:05:51. > :05:54.that piece and that prosperity. We do not have much prosperity at the
:05:55. > :05:58.moment. The Prime Minister is right, it puts what we do in
:05:59. > :06:04.perspective. Last night we were doing an all-night by-election
:06:05. > :06:09.results programme, and we thought it was quite important to do it for
:06:10. > :06:13.public service. 70 years ago, our fathers and grandfathers were
:06:14. > :06:18.throwing their lives onto the beaches of Normandy not knowing what
:06:19. > :06:22.was going to happen. Exactly. I think the Prime Minister was right
:06:23. > :06:26.and he is good at expressing those things that big national moments,
:06:27. > :06:29.the sense that when we talk about political solidarity, being in it
:06:30. > :06:37.together, it is a different moral sphere to what we are talking about
:06:38. > :06:44.in relation to the D-Day landings. Ultimately, yes, the Newark
:06:45. > :06:49.by-election, the argy-bargy about deficit reduction, it is a slightly
:06:50. > :06:54.different issue. The other thing that struck me watching it, it is a
:06:55. > :06:57.good reminder that it does not get enough coverage but at the
:06:58. > :07:01.ceremonies this morning the New Zealanders, the Australians, the
:07:02. > :07:06.Canadians were there as well. The Canadians played a huge part in
:07:07. > :07:09.this. There is a perception, maybe because of modern media, that the
:07:10. > :07:16.date was largely an American venture and that the British were tagging
:07:17. > :07:18.along. -- that D-Day. The British Commonwealth provided and not more
:07:19. > :07:24.troops than the Americans on the day, they provided nearly all the
:07:25. > :07:30.air cover and most of the ships. It is the way popular culture absorbs a
:07:31. > :07:35.history, the way Hollywood describes it. The news gets the facts right.
:07:36. > :07:39.You have just done that. I would like to say that the warm or eels
:07:40. > :07:44.throughout villages in France, I am sure you have seen them, they are
:07:45. > :07:50.such a potent reminder in people's daily lives. -- the war memorials
:07:51. > :07:59.throughout villages. You see entire families' names. There has been a
:08:00. > :08:03.campaign in the UK for the upkeep of these and I would be a big supporter
:08:04. > :08:10.of that. It would be a good time to start. We have got to move on. There
:08:11. > :08:14.is a memorial in Normandy. The inscription is in Latin and it is
:08:15. > :08:17.fascinating and it says, in the land of William the Conqueror, the
:08:18. > :08:22.conquered came to liberate the Conqueror. Other words, having been
:08:23. > :08:27.conquered by the Normans intense excuse it is the British came back
:08:28. > :08:28.to liberate Normandy. It is interesting and they put it in
:08:29. > :08:31.Latin. Now, after
:08:32. > :08:34.a very long night we finally got the result of the Newark by-election
:08:35. > :08:37.at around 4am this morning. I had matchsticks in my eyes
:08:38. > :08:39.by then. So let?s have a look
:08:40. > :08:42.at those results in detail. The Conservatives held
:08:43. > :08:44.the seat with their candidate Robert Jenrick winning over 17,000
:08:45. > :08:46.votes. This represents 45% of the vote but
:08:47. > :08:53.their share declined by almost 9%. This was because
:08:54. > :08:56.UKIP's Rodger Helmer did so well. Coming second,
:08:57. > :09:00.he received just over 10,000 votes. Which translates to almost 26%
:09:01. > :09:07.of the vote share. It is way up on what they got in
:09:08. > :09:10.2010. Michael Payne for Labour came
:09:11. > :09:13.third with over 6,000 votes. The independent candidate
:09:14. > :09:14.Paul Baggaley The Greens were fifth,
:09:15. > :09:21.receiving just over 1,000 votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate
:09:22. > :09:23.David Watts was sixth with 1,004 votes,
:09:24. > :09:31.and 2.6% share of the vote. This represents one
:09:32. > :09:33.of their worst performances It is their ninth lost deposit in
:09:34. > :09:45.this ballot. Here's Robert Jenrick,
:09:46. > :09:58.the new MP for Newark speaking after I am grateful for all the support,
:09:59. > :10:03.especially locally. People saw this as a Westminster election. There was
:10:04. > :10:06.a big election two weeks ago for the European Parliament but people in
:10:07. > :10:09.Europe need the choice, they wanted a long-term member of Parliament
:10:10. > :10:13.campaigning on local issues, someone who will live here and be a
:10:14. > :10:18.constituency MP, and they are able to make the distinction between the
:10:19. > :10:23.European elections and the honeymoon period following that and they have
:10:24. > :10:37.chosen a strong voice in Parliament. That was the new MP for Newark. What
:10:38. > :10:43.is it like, the politics of the morning after the night before? It
:10:44. > :10:48.is business as usual and I say that because the great fabled earthquake
:10:49. > :10:53.has not happened. Let's be honest, this was always Terra Firma
:10:54. > :11:00.politically speaking for the Tory party. It was their 44th safest seat
:11:01. > :11:04.and they had a stomping majority of around 16,000, 25,000 UKIP at the
:11:05. > :11:08.last general election and on top of that, they fought a highly
:11:09. > :11:12.organised, highly disciplined, highly motivated campaign. Mr
:11:13. > :11:17.Cameron was here four times. Tory MPs were told to to come here at
:11:18. > :11:22.least three times and campaign and that simply overwhelmed the rather
:11:23. > :11:25.ramshackle people's army who did not have that level of organisation, the
:11:26. > :11:30.on the ground strength that you really need to take on the Tory
:11:31. > :11:36.party in this sort of seed. That said, yes, they did take chunks out
:11:37. > :11:41.of the Tory party. What strikes me about the Newark result is that it
:11:42. > :11:44.reminds us of a basic political truth, that it is extraordinarily
:11:45. > :11:49.difficult for any small party to win under our first past the post
:11:50. > :11:54.electoral system. While it is fine and dandy for UKIP to pile up votes
:11:55. > :11:57.in European elections, when it comes to first past the post it is a
:11:58. > :12:03.different ball game entirely and that means a different ball game for
:12:04. > :12:07.the general election as well. What is the biggest story this
:12:08. > :12:12.morning - Labour coming third and losing its share of the vote or the
:12:13. > :12:24.Lib Dems coming sex and being close to wipe down again?
:12:25. > :12:29.-- coming sex. -- coming number six. For the Lib Dems, this is their
:12:30. > :12:34.worst by-election results in England since the war. This from the party
:12:35. > :12:40.who used to be the by-election supremos. Now, absolutely
:12:41. > :12:44.catastrophic result following dismal results in the European elections
:12:45. > :12:47.and dire results in the local elections. You sense if you are a
:12:48. > :12:52.Liberal Democrat you have to be thinking, when on earth do we pull
:12:53. > :12:57.out of this nosedive? I am not sure anyone has an answer. What would be
:12:58. > :13:01.interesting is if this result further galvanises local parties to
:13:02. > :13:06.hold these emergency meetings to decide whether they want Nick Clegg
:13:07. > :13:08.to remain as leader. Bring me back some of those nice
:13:09. > :13:12.carrots behind you! Now, we did ask the Labour party
:13:13. > :13:15.for an interview this morning. They declined to take part,
:13:16. > :13:18.as did the Liberal Democrats. Instead we have the Liberal Democrat
:13:19. > :13:24.blogger, Stephen Tall. Also joining me is the Conservative
:13:25. > :13:28.Party Chairman, Grant Shapps and in a moment, after he's swapped places
:13:29. > :13:51.with Norman, Roger Helmer, UKIP's Gentlemen, welcome to you all. Grant
:13:52. > :13:55.Shapps, your new candidate thanked everybody for his rectory except
:13:56. > :14:01.that he did not thank the kitchen sink that you threw at the
:14:02. > :14:05.constituency to make him win. Of course we went there and we wanted
:14:06. > :14:09.to win. We asked MPs and candidates and everyone else to go and help. I
:14:10. > :14:14.do not think that is what won it. We have the arguments on our side. We
:14:15. > :14:20.have got our long-term plan for this country. It has started to work. Are
:14:21. > :14:27.you on a bonus if you go over 30 seconds? In the end, we managed to
:14:28. > :14:32.present the plans to people. People have voted on the basis of that
:14:33. > :14:37.plan, whether we want to have the rest of the recovery in this country
:14:38. > :14:40.according to the way... So if you hadn't thrown the kitchen sink at it
:14:41. > :14:44.you still would have done it? You need to have people on the ground in
:14:45. > :14:47.order to let the voters who have been asked for their support know
:14:48. > :14:53.what party stands for and what the plan would be. I am not going to
:14:54. > :14:59.pretend that we did not ask people. We had a lot of volunteers. Some of
:15:00. > :15:02.the stuff is a little bit strange to criticise you for a little bit too
:15:03. > :15:14.hard, only the British would do that, but what I wondered in this
:15:15. > :15:20.by-election is, you still did not do well enough to indicate that you
:15:21. > :15:28.could get an overall majority at the next election. I would say don't
:15:29. > :15:31.read too much into by-elections, and it doesn't mean we will win the next
:15:32. > :15:38.general election, but it's the first time in 25 years in power, it's the
:15:39. > :15:42.first Army managed to hold -- the first Army managed to hold the seat.
:15:43. > :15:50.I think that is 17 by-elections where we have failed. At the end of
:15:51. > :15:55.the day, they are different, general elections have lower turnouts.
:15:56. > :16:01.Labour had quite good majorities. Here is an interesting statistic,
:16:02. > :16:07.when we were the asp and government, we won in Crewe and
:16:08. > :16:10.Norwich North -- Asper and government -- aspirant government.
:16:11. > :16:15.It says a lot about Ed Miliband that he is not prepared and ready to
:16:16. > :16:19.govern, and the fact they are not even on your programme today. We can
:16:20. > :16:24.go to Roger in Newark. Thanks for joining us. You spoke to me in the
:16:25. > :16:30.early hours, so kind of you to get up and be with us now just after
:16:31. > :16:35.noon. My pleasure. Are you disappointed you did not do better?
:16:36. > :16:38.Of course we hoped to win, and we campaigned to win, and winning is
:16:39. > :16:43.better than coming second, but if you look at the figures we increased
:16:44. > :16:48.our share of the vote sixfold and halved the Conservative majority.
:16:49. > :16:52.This is real progress. What I would particularly point out that five or
:16:53. > :16:57.ten years ago we would do very well in European elections but we go back
:16:58. > :17:02.to ground zero, four or 5%, in Westminster elections. This time we
:17:03. > :17:10.got 33% in the European election and we delivered nearly 26% in this
:17:11. > :17:12.by-election. It shows that a large proportion of the people voting UKIP
:17:13. > :17:17.in European elections are prepared to go on and vote UKIP in
:17:18. > :17:22.Westminster elections as well. But you didn't do as well as you did in
:17:23. > :17:26.Eastleigh. There is not a sense of momentum. We got a lower share than
:17:27. > :17:32.you did in Eastleigh. We were there or thereabouts in a constituency
:17:33. > :17:36.that the Conservative party through the kitchen sink and the whole
:17:37. > :17:40.kitchen at. People are saying that Conservative ministers probably have
:17:41. > :17:43.a better attendance in Newark than they have in Westminster. Bearing in
:17:44. > :17:47.mind that a lot of the people working with the Conservatives in
:17:48. > :17:51.Newark are the payroll vote. They have been whipped to come here,
:17:52. > :17:55.whereas our activists were volunteers who came because they
:17:56. > :18:02.believe in what we are doing and came from all over the country.
:18:03. > :18:07.There is another side to the team, teams of volunteers who want to
:18:08. > :18:13.volunteer to get a better future for the country. Aren't these the old
:18:14. > :18:21.Conservatives? There were a lot of young people? Anybody can join the
:18:22. > :18:25.team, and it's people who maybe not through the traditional route of
:18:26. > :18:32.joining the branch or the committee, joining the party, those people, are
:18:33. > :18:37.very involved. Quite a few romances started then? I don't have an
:18:38. > :18:41.insight into that. Is this how you plan to increase the number of Tory
:18:42. > :18:47.voters? I don't make any apology for wanting to get a crass -- sell a
:18:48. > :18:52.message. If you have a long-term economic plan, you have to tell
:18:53. > :18:58.people about it. You had to know they were going to throw the kitchen
:18:59. > :19:02.sink at it, and we know that UKIP knew that winning was going to be
:19:03. > :19:08.tough, and I'm not criticising you for not winning, but you had a 30%
:19:09. > :19:12.benchmark and you did not make it. Well, we did OK in the face of what
:19:13. > :19:16.was thrown at us. I'm interesting to hear that Grant Schatz is saying
:19:17. > :19:18.that we need to sell the message. I'd like to know why the
:19:19. > :19:22.Conservative campaign actually pulled out their candidate for the
:19:23. > :19:26.last three or four days of the campaign. I sat down with
:19:27. > :19:30.journalists from broadcast and print media and people said they could not
:19:31. > :19:34.find him. He cancelled an interview on LBC. He refused to do an
:19:35. > :19:39.interview with the BBC in the Market Square where I am now, and other
:19:40. > :19:42.journalists were saying they had not seen him. I'd like to know what
:19:43. > :19:46.happened to him during the last days of the campaign. He was surrounded
:19:47. > :19:53.by Conservative minders at all stages. The people we have find it
:19:54. > :19:59.quite hard to penetrate that line. He was such an identikit Tory people
:20:00. > :20:05.started to call him Robert Generic. Unlike some of the other candidates,
:20:06. > :20:09.he had been placed the six months, not just picked for the by-election.
:20:10. > :20:12.When we came to produce the by-election material to let people
:20:13. > :20:16.know about him we found we had a vast selection of material from all
:20:17. > :20:25.of the work had done. He had been at it for months. Right from the
:20:26. > :20:35.outset, day one, the interviews, he was out there the whole time. Let me
:20:36. > :20:46.bring in Stephen. What is to be done? It's a good question. It's a
:20:47. > :20:49.pretty dire result for the party and this is is reaping the whirlwind of
:20:50. > :20:54.being in coalition. The Conservatives put in a good result
:20:55. > :20:57.last night and one of the parties that can afford to have a smile on
:20:58. > :21:04.their face this morning. They put in a good result are getting the
:21:05. > :21:08.benefit. And we are not. It tends to be the leading party in a coalition
:21:09. > :21:15.that gets the benefit of stuff going right. They will sweep your side,
:21:16. > :21:22.and any credit going will go to them. I think that is the risk. I
:21:23. > :21:25.don't think any Liberal Democrat agreeing to it being formed thought
:21:26. > :21:28.it was an easy ride. I don't know if we thought it would be as hard, but
:21:29. > :21:35.we knew there was a desk -- a real risk this day would come. Would
:21:36. > :21:38.change in the leadership this? This is something people are split on.
:21:39. > :21:45.Within the party, there are people who do think that you can suddenly
:21:46. > :21:48.wave a magic wand, Tim -- Nick Clegg is gone, Tim Farren and Vince cable
:21:49. > :21:53.replacement may shoot up in the ratings. I don't think it's likely
:21:54. > :21:57.to happen. Four years of coalition and people are likely to remember
:21:58. > :22:01.that at the general election, and with 11 months ago, hoping that the
:22:02. > :22:05.man at the top switches and you get a new leader magically transforms
:22:06. > :22:11.the position is unlikely. You now have the worst of all words --
:22:12. > :22:18.wilds, constant leadership speculation but you won't change the
:22:19. > :22:22.leader. A brave decision by the MPs because by now there would probably
:22:23. > :22:27.be revolted any Lib Dem MPs had signalled they want to go, but the
:22:28. > :22:31.two likely replacements have stood behind Nick Clegg, not with a
:22:32. > :22:36.knife, but to make sure he stays in place. Without MPs willing to back
:22:37. > :22:44.party members, that 40% who want Nick Clegg to go, that revolt has
:22:45. > :22:48.nowhere to go. The Tories came within 1% of Labour in the local
:22:49. > :22:51.elections. They dropped only 3% in the Euro elections, despite the UKIP
:22:52. > :22:57.insurgency. They comfortably retained Newark. Where is the good
:22:58. > :23:01.news for Labour in this? A very good question. Most Labour people looking
:23:02. > :23:05.at what has happened in the last few weeks should be quite worried about
:23:06. > :23:10.this. I can tell you what a Labour Party spokesman would say if she or
:23:11. > :23:14.he had come on the programme, that this was never going to be a fertile
:23:15. > :23:17.ground for the Labour Party, this was a contest between the
:23:18. > :23:22.Conservatives and UKIP. We had to keep a hand in it, but this was not
:23:23. > :23:26.a target seat. But ultimately, you take a step back, and as you
:23:27. > :23:29.describe, what seen in the last few weeks is that when you have had a
:23:30. > :23:33.test that the ballot box and there have been lots of people who maybe
:23:34. > :23:36.don't like the government and want to vote against the incumbent
:23:37. > :23:42.parties or the main incumbent party, not enough of them are to Labour as
:23:43. > :23:45.the obvious alternative and this discussion we have had between Grant
:23:46. > :23:48.and Roger, it describes the dynamic in politics where the leader of the
:23:49. > :23:54.opposition are not prominent enough. That has to be dangerous for
:23:55. > :23:59.the Labour Party in the year before a general election. I was simply
:24:00. > :24:05.going to say that Vince Cable put himself in a position where if
:24:06. > :24:10.somebody had wanted to back him, he couldn't go forward. I don't think
:24:11. > :24:13.there is anything there. It is extraordinary what we are
:24:14. > :24:18.witnessing. There are rumblings about all three, if we can call them
:24:19. > :24:24.the main party leaders. I do want to go back to Roger. Briefly, please.
:24:25. > :24:28.Lib Dem MPs are OK, and the question the party has to ask is if the
:24:29. > :24:32.strategy is to hold together a small bunch of MPs to keep Nick Clegg in
:24:33. > :24:40.place, is this a national party any more? Roger Helmer, surely it is
:24:41. > :24:43.fair to say that last night, if there has been a UKIP surge in
:24:44. > :24:50.recent weeks, last night was a bit of a circuit breaker on it. Not at
:24:51. > :24:53.all. As I said earlier on, we used to have a good vote in European
:24:54. > :24:59.elections that collapsed in Westminster elections and now we
:25:00. > :25:02.have a good vote in both, which is mostly holding up in the Westminster
:25:03. > :25:07.elections. That's a very, very good sign for 2015. Roger Helmer, thank
:25:08. > :25:10.you for joining us and thanks to our guests in the studio.
:25:11. > :25:12.Although there's just over 100 days until Scotland's referendum,
:25:13. > :25:15.business leaders in neighbouring English regions have warned that
:25:16. > :25:24.uncertainty over the result is delaying vital investment.
:25:25. > :25:32.We teamed up with the Chambers of commerce in the north-east and
:25:33. > :25:37.Cumbria to ask what affect the referendum could have on them if
:25:38. > :25:41.Scotland goes independence. A business Park in Newcastle. Some big
:25:42. > :25:45.firms have come here and jobs have been created. But as you can see,
:25:46. > :25:51.still plenty of empty space. Office developments like this one are
:25:52. > :25:55.trying out for tenants and the jobs that could have come here have gone
:25:56. > :25:59.to Scotland instead. Amazon were considering putting 900 jobs here
:26:00. > :26:03.but they chose to go to Dunfermline in Scotland instead. Grants from
:26:04. > :26:06.Scottish enterprise tipped the balance. Managers hearsay and
:26:07. > :26:12.independent Scotland would be an even fierce competitor. As
:26:13. > :26:19.Edinburgh's neighbour, the nearest one, we will feel it more than
:26:20. > :26:22.most. We need more control over spending and more control over how
:26:23. > :26:29.the offering is perceived to the large occupiers to make sure we can
:26:30. > :26:39.stay competitive. Amongst concerns in the business region in the area
:26:40. > :26:43.is 240 companies in Cumbria and the north-east, who gave their views to
:26:44. > :26:48.the BBC in a questionnaire sent out by the chamber of commerce to its
:26:49. > :26:52.members. 63 of them said that if an independent Scotland were to cut
:26:53. > :26:56.corporation tax, they might consider investing north of the border rather
:26:57. > :27:00.than in this region. But a majority of them, 176, said it wouldn't make
:27:01. > :27:09.any difference to their investment decisions. And that is the case for
:27:10. > :27:12.this Durham firm building a new estate in Kelso in the Scottish
:27:13. > :27:16.Borders. In the last few weeks they bought a Scottish building firm.
:27:17. > :27:20.Whether it is a yes or no in September, they are confident of the
:27:21. > :27:25.future. This is a strategic decision to expand the business. We are
:27:26. > :27:30.employing about 75 people in Scotland, maybe 100 in Cumbria, so
:27:31. > :27:33.what difference should it make? Construction workers across the
:27:34. > :27:37.borders. We have international companies working in the UK, so what
:27:38. > :27:40.is the difference? But the chamber of commerce in the region says a big
:27:41. > :27:45.problem ahead of the referendum is a lack of information. We have heard
:27:46. > :27:48.that businesses are holding back on making some investments because they
:27:49. > :27:52.are waiting to see what the outcome of the referendum is going to be.
:27:53. > :27:56.And that is a disappointing situation. To a certain extent,
:27:57. > :27:59.there is an inevitability about it, but people on both sides of the
:28:00. > :28:03.debate could do more to provide clarity that enables businesses to
:28:04. > :28:06.move forward with confidence on some of those decisions. Whilst most
:28:07. > :28:09.businesses in the region are confident they can punch their
:28:10. > :28:13.weight with an independent Scotland, there are also concerns from some
:28:14. > :28:24.that it could leave yawning gaps in the economy. And we are joined by
:28:25. > :28:29.Nick Brown and by the SNP MP, Stuart Posey in our Dundee studio. I will
:28:30. > :28:33.come to you first. We might be in danger of losing the line. I didn't
:28:34. > :28:38.think the referendum was until the 18th, but we may be cut off in our
:28:39. > :28:41.prime. I want to ask you this. What is your reaction to the president of
:28:42. > :28:46.the USA turning out to be a unionist? I don't think he took part
:28:47. > :28:53.in the North of England business survey either. I am sure he didn't.
:28:54. > :28:56.I think the president chose his words extremely carefully indeed.
:28:57. > :29:00.Whilst it is interesting, it will have little or no bearing on the
:29:01. > :29:06.results on the 18th of September. None at all? That the most important
:29:07. > :29:12.country in the world, our most important country, a country where
:29:13. > :29:16.Scots played a huge part in building their country, 46 of the founding
:29:17. > :29:22.fathers were Ulster Scotch, and the president of that country says it
:29:23. > :29:26.does not matter? He did not say it didn't matter, he chose his words
:29:27. > :29:31.carefully. Let's remember, the United States had a revolution to
:29:32. > :29:36.end London rule, so we need to put across that for the yes campaign on
:29:37. > :29:41.the 18th. I am worried we are going to lose the line, so let's go back
:29:42. > :29:47.to the questionnaire that was done. Would Scottish independence, if you
:29:48. > :29:51.had the power to set your own taxes, we understand would cut
:29:52. > :29:55.corporation tax, cut advanced passenger duty at the airports, that
:29:56. > :30:00.would affect the North of England, wouldn't it? The key thing about the
:30:01. > :30:03.survey is that most businesses said investment decisions were unchanged,
:30:04. > :30:06.most want to stay in the North of England but others will look at
:30:07. > :30:10.investment opportunities that would benefit Scotland and the businesses
:30:11. > :30:14.themselves. This ties in to the survey from the Chamber of Commerce.
:30:15. > :30:18.Businesses are not fazed by Scottish independence. The scare stories
:30:19. > :30:22.don't work. Remember Vince Cable said this week that the power of
:30:23. > :30:26.London was harming everywhere else in the UK. We think a strong,
:30:27. > :30:30.successful, prosperous independent Scotland as a counterweight to the
:30:31. > :30:33.gravitational pull from London would be for the benefit of the North of
:30:34. > :30:38.England. Why would it be to the benefit of the North of England?
:30:39. > :30:41.Because the vast majority of the Scottish population and businesses
:30:42. > :30:44.are far, far closer to businesses in the North of England than
:30:45. > :30:47.marketplace in London in the south-east. If we're going to have a
:30:48. > :30:51.counterweight to the gravitational pull of London, it doesn't just
:30:52. > :31:16.benefit Scotland, but also businesses close to Scotland in the
:31:17. > :31:20.North. Let me give you the example of aviation policy. If Alex Salmond
:31:21. > :31:30.cuts the charge, they will be in trouble. There is no problem at all
:31:31. > :31:34.if people use Edinburgh as a hub airport. What is a different
:31:35. > :31:38.Newcastle? There are not huge distances between Newcastle and
:31:39. > :31:42.Edinburgh. It is as easy to fly into Edinburgh as an international hub to
:31:43. > :31:46.go to Newcastle as it is to go to Heathrow to go to Newcastle. That is
:31:47. > :31:50.good news for Glasgow and Edinburgh if we are talking about Newcastle
:31:51. > :31:55.because they are on the same part of the country. It is a logical thing
:31:56. > :31:58.for an independent Scotland to do. But it creates real problems for
:31:59. > :32:05.Newcastle Airport, because it does not get the landing fees. I do not
:32:06. > :32:10.agree with it. I think it brings people to the region. You can be in
:32:11. > :32:14.Newcastle in one hour from Edinburgh. From Heathrow, it can
:32:15. > :32:18.take three or four hours, to be. It will benefit the people in the North
:32:19. > :32:21.of England. Would Scottish independence make life more
:32:22. > :32:25.difficult for the North of England? In the North East in particular
:32:26. > :32:28.there has always been a resentment about the Scots getting certain
:32:29. > :32:33.things and the north-east losing out? There is a certain amount of
:32:34. > :32:37.friendly rivalry but there are friends and neighbours, the people
:32:38. > :32:45.in Scotland. The choices for them and whichever decision make we want
:32:46. > :32:49.to make it work. So they get independence, they vote for
:32:50. > :32:54.independence and in 2016 it happens, the Scottish government
:32:55. > :33:00.cuts corporation tax to 10%, what happens to businesses in Newcastle?
:33:01. > :33:04.I support the union. We already have corporation tax concessions in the
:33:05. > :33:08.government's enterprise zones so it is not unheard of as a policy, but
:33:09. > :33:14.it is not a practical proposition just to reduce a whole series of
:33:15. > :33:19.tax. We still have the revenue that would be necessary to one and
:33:20. > :33:28.independent country. But if the Scottish government cut taxes like
:33:29. > :33:31.corporation tax, if they cut that and cut advance passenger duty, that
:33:32. > :33:35.would make life more difficult for business on Tyneside? There are two
:33:36. > :33:44.Max Abbott proposition is there. There are enterprise zones in the
:33:45. > :33:50.north-east that offer time-limited tax concessions and on the airport
:33:51. > :33:52.duty, it is much more important because Newcastle International
:33:53. > :33:56.airport is a first-rate airport and it is more important as to where you
:33:57. > :34:01.want to travel and what price you pay for the tickets. The effect of
:34:02. > :34:05.passenger duty is marginal. I am sorry, that is not the experience in
:34:06. > :34:09.Ireland at all. When the Irish government cut advance passenger
:34:10. > :34:14.duty people poured out of Northern Ireland to fly out of Dublin and
:34:15. > :34:19.Shannon, so much so that the British judgement had to allow Belfast to
:34:20. > :34:23.cut its advance passenger duty. -- the British government. That
:34:24. > :34:26.pertains to the island of Ireland. I am not sure that the relationship is
:34:27. > :34:33.exactly the same between Scotland and Edinburgh. It seems to be the
:34:34. > :34:37.same. The distance between Dublin and Belfast is about the same as
:34:38. > :34:42.Edinburgh and Newcastle. But you travel from Tyneside to Edinburgh to
:34:43. > :34:49.avoid passenger duty? You would have to pay for the tickets. The
:34:50. > :34:52.passenger duty for a family of four is ?500. But you are making an
:34:53. > :35:00.international flight. How often do ordinary people do that? Once, for
:35:01. > :35:06.their holidays, once a year. We are not full of internationally mobile
:35:07. > :35:12.people. One final question, I am glad we have not lost the line. Why
:35:13. > :35:20.have the polls stop narrowing? Why is the gap between yes and no moving
:35:21. > :35:27.again in favour of no? The IPSA 's Mori poll showed yes was up 4% and
:35:28. > :35:34.no was down 4%. It is the most friendly poll and it was the first
:35:35. > :35:38.time that we have yes above 40%. It is just over 100 days before the
:35:39. > :35:45.referendum. We are aware we need to be. -- where we need to be.
:35:46. > :35:48.Now David Cameron's had a busy few days, what with the D-Day
:35:49. > :35:53.He did however make time to meet Vladimir Putin in Paris for the
:35:54. > :35:56.first direct talks between a western leader and the Russian president
:35:57. > :36:00.Mr Cameron told Mr Putin the current situation in Ukraine was
:36:01. > :36:03."not acceptable" and urged him to engage with the Ukrainian
:36:04. > :36:09.Earlier, leaders of the G7 nations urged Russia to
:36:10. > :36:14.begin talks with the new leadership in Kiev to end the crisis.
:36:15. > :36:22.Here's Messrs Cameron and Obama speaking last night.
:36:23. > :36:27.First, the status quo is unacceptable. The continuing
:36:28. > :36:31.destabilisation of Eastern Ukraine must stop. Second, there are a set
:36:32. > :36:36.of things that need to happen. President Putin must recognise the
:36:37. > :36:39.legitimate election of President Poroshenko. He must stop arms
:36:40. > :36:43.crossing the border into Ukraine. He must cease Russian support for
:36:44. > :36:46.separatist group. Third, if these things do not happen, sectoral
:36:47. > :36:52.sanctions will follow. The next months will be vital in judging if
:36:53. > :36:56.President Putin has taken these steps and this is what I will urge
:36:57. > :37:02.him to do. If Mr Putin takes two steps it is possible for us to begin
:37:03. > :37:09.to rebuild trust between Russia and its neighbours in Europe. Should he
:37:10. > :37:12.fail to do so, there are going to be additional consequences and one
:37:13. > :37:17.important thing that came out of the meeting today was the recognition on
:37:18. > :37:33.the part of all of us that we cannot simply a drift. We are joined by Sir
:37:34. > :37:38.Christopher Meyer. If I was that your Putin watching this I would
:37:39. > :37:43.think, no need to change anything. I would be pretty irritated. The one
:37:44. > :37:46.thing that your Putin does not like is being told to do things as if he
:37:47. > :37:51.is a naughty schoolboy and being put under deadlines and under pressure.
:37:52. > :37:58.I think he will react badly to that. All of that said, what he is
:37:59. > :38:04.urging is in his own interests and I am sure he will get into talks with
:38:05. > :38:09.Mr Poroshenko. It is in his interests to come Eastern Ukraine.
:38:10. > :38:13.Is he moving in that direction? Not long ago there was talk of Russian
:38:14. > :38:18.troops massing on the border of Eastern Ukraine and it was only a
:38:19. > :38:24.matter of time before that was a crisis as well, but it looks less
:38:25. > :38:27.likely now? There have been some nods and winks in the Kremlin and
:38:28. > :38:31.obscure phrases from Putin, but I think he wants to work with
:38:32. > :38:34.Poroshenko and, heaven knows, we think of it as a crisis in the West
:38:35. > :38:40.but it is a hell of a crisis for Putin and it is not served by more
:38:41. > :38:43.instability. Why do you think he has pulled back from the brink? Why did
:38:44. > :39:03.he not go on and take Eastern Ukraine? I am not convinced he was
:39:04. > :39:07.ever going to do it. I am -- having to inherit the cost and chaos of a
:39:08. > :39:11.sovereign state, I suspect that he never intended to do it but did want
:39:12. > :39:21.the massing of the army on the frontier to be a form of coercive
:39:22. > :39:27.diplomacy. Has the G7 showed itself to be a parent tiger? It is a tiger
:39:28. > :39:32.with uneven lakes. It is limping a bit and it has sharp teeth on one
:39:33. > :39:36.side and blunt on the other. Different members want to do
:39:37. > :39:40.different things. The French want to sell highly potent warships to the
:39:41. > :39:44.Russians. They do not want to, they are selling them. The Russians
:39:45. > :39:54.arrived in France to begin training. Well, there you go. The Germans are
:39:55. > :40:00.not keen on ramping things up. It has not been very effective politics
:40:01. > :40:05.for diplomacy. The thing that can get us out of all of this is that
:40:06. > :40:09.the solution is obvious - federalisation of the Ukrainian
:40:10. > :40:14.state. We all know that and I think Putin is working towards that. What
:40:15. > :40:19.do you make of the G7 approach to Ukraine? There are clearly different
:40:20. > :40:24.takes on it. I thought it was interesting when President Obama
:40:25. > :40:31.talked yesterday about, wording it nicely, pressing the pause button.
:40:32. > :40:38.He was referring to this sale of these helicopter warships. My
:40:39. > :40:42.understanding is that there are two and the first delivery will be in
:40:43. > :40:48.October. My understanding also is that we are in phase two of the
:40:49. > :40:53.sanctions being considered by the G7, and indeed by Europe, and there
:40:54. > :40:57.is a phase three and it is in phase three that then there are sanctions
:40:58. > :41:04.that deal with defence matters, which this would come under. My
:41:05. > :41:12.understanding also is that had the highest level of French government,
:41:13. > :41:17.what would happen is that the French are not saying what they would do
:41:18. > :41:23.but they understand that all parties would need to make some compromise,
:41:24. > :41:28.something would have to be negotiated. My other understanding
:41:29. > :41:31.is that the first one that is going to be delivered in October is
:41:32. > :41:41.actually a shell and that it will take months, and I do not know if
:41:42. > :41:46.Russians are training in France, the shell will take months to be built
:41:47. > :41:50.into any sort of warship. That is the reality. There is no doubt that
:41:51. > :41:54.if the Russians get the first ship there is no doubt in my mind they
:41:55. > :42:00.will get the second one as well. It is inconceivable. Can I shed light
:42:01. > :42:04.on the question of why Putin is acting the way he has, on the basis
:42:05. > :42:09.of an interesting conversation I had with eight security prison in Latvia
:42:10. > :42:14.recently. An interesting point was made. Putin made two important
:42:15. > :42:18.calculations. One was that ultimately West leaders would not
:42:19. > :42:21.push back too hard because they would have a cost benefit analysis
:42:22. > :42:27.of where their interests lay in terms of how aggressively they
:42:28. > :42:30.responded. The other, which was a miscalculation, was that there were
:42:31. > :42:35.lots of people in Eastern Ukraine who saw themselves as more Russian
:42:36. > :42:38.and Ukrainian. Although there are people who feel ethnically Russian,
:42:39. > :42:44.Putin overestimated the extent to which they would rally to wanting to
:42:45. > :42:48.be under his jurisdiction. They are culturally Russian but a lot of them
:42:49. > :42:57.feel Ukrainian. I think that is why he is backing off. They did not wise
:42:58. > :43:00.up -- rise up. I think there was a miscalculation there. I have this
:43:01. > :43:03.feeling from my own conversations that the massing of troops, though
:43:04. > :43:06.they might have moved over the frontier, was more to put pressure
:43:07. > :43:13.on the Ukrainian government and on us in the West in the knowledge that
:43:14. > :43:19.we would never go to war. Dodger federal solution involves
:43:20. > :43:28.surrendering Premier? Crimea is gone, forget about it. Should
:43:29. > :43:36.President Obama see President Putin? Probably, yes. It is difficult for
:43:37. > :43:40.Obama domestically. He has come under criticism from the left and
:43:41. > :43:45.right for not pursuing a vigorous and robust foreign policy. He is not
:43:46. > :43:49.Korean action, why should he worry? He is worried about legacy and has
:43:50. > :43:55.conflicting voices in the White House, some saying meet Putin, some
:43:56. > :44:00.saying not to. Could he not bring Putin and Poroshenko together? He
:44:01. > :44:06.would not be regarded by Putin as an honest broker because he has been
:44:07. > :44:14.the most strident, we are only number two, and it would be hard to
:44:15. > :44:19.play the role. The person who is going to bring Mr Poroshenko and Mr
:44:20. > :44:32.Putin together is President Hollande. It is happening as we
:44:33. > :44:37.speak with 19 heads of state. We say in French it is the happenstance of
:44:38. > :44:40.the calendar. 70 years after that extraordinary sacrifice that we were
:44:41. > :44:45.talking about and ordering at the beginning of the programme, you have
:44:46. > :44:54.these very different leaders in this Ukraine-Russia crisis and I
:44:55. > :44:58.understand that it is not impossible that President Obama might happen to
:44:59. > :45:02.bump into President Putin away from the cameras. President Putin gave to
:45:03. > :45:07.two French channels 36 hours ago an interview where he clearly knew what
:45:08. > :45:12.he was doing. It was a long interview and it was an interesting
:45:13. > :45:16.stand-by. He said, I will talk to anyone. There is nobody I am not
:45:17. > :45:21.going to talk to. Fascinating insight, thank you. I want to move
:45:22. > :45:28.on. Let's talk about one of France's most famous women.
:45:29. > :45:33.Christine Lagarde was in town today to deliver the IMS MOT on the
:45:34. > :45:38.British economy. Despite concerns, everything is rosy according to the
:45:39. > :45:41.IMF. While she had good news for George Osborne, she had bad news for
:45:42. > :45:51.the Prime Minister who many think would like her to be in the running
:45:52. > :45:55.for the European Commission job. I am not a candidate, and the reason I
:45:56. > :46:05.am not a candidate is that I have a job. It is a job that I think is
:46:06. > :46:10.rather important at the moment, and the United Kingdom was kind enough
:46:11. > :46:14.to support before it at the time -- me for it at the time and that it's
:46:15. > :46:20.a job I have to do and which I intend to complete. As my young son
:46:21. > :46:26.would have said, mum, when you start something, you have to finish the
:46:27. > :46:30.job. Hawaii's young son, who is clearly influential in diplomatic
:46:31. > :46:36.matters -- a wise young son. How do you read that? I suspect she is
:46:37. > :46:39.sincere and not wanting to claim the presidency of the European
:46:40. > :46:42.commission. If all of the member states turned and begged her to take
:46:43. > :46:47.the job, maybe she would, but we are not near that situation yet.
:46:48. > :46:58.Pro-British government this is a difficult moment. It is by qualified
:46:59. > :47:04.majority voting, remember, so you have to have a clear idea who you do
:47:05. > :47:07.want in the job and have a clear idea that you can rally a majority
:47:08. > :47:12.alliance behind the candidate you want. By all accounts, Cameron
:47:13. > :47:20.doesn't want Jean-Claude Juncker, but who does he want? Has he created
:47:21. > :47:25.some coalition of friends? He has a number of people who side with him
:47:26. > :47:30.about not wanting Jean-Claude Juncker, the Hungarians, the Swedes,
:47:31. > :47:38.the Dutch are very keen. -- are not very keen. What will Francoise
:47:39. > :47:43.Hollande's the -- attitude be towards Christine the guard being
:47:44. > :47:48.president of the commission? I'm glad somebody has done some work on
:47:49. > :48:04.the programme. I made some phone calls and its enquiries. The fact
:48:05. > :48:08.that a French person is head of the IMF and the second time, after the
:48:09. > :48:14.dramatic departure of the first, there is a whole knock-on effect.
:48:15. > :48:18.There is a lot of people who would like the traditional big jobs at the
:48:19. > :48:21.World Bank and the IMF not to go to the Europeans. There would be the
:48:22. > :48:26.temptation to say, hold on, that's two French people resigning
:48:27. > :48:31.on-the-job. I think it was Angela Merkel who had eight private
:48:32. > :48:37.conversation with Christine Lagarde -- a private conversation. I agree
:48:38. > :48:41.with you that if she were approached and there was this incredible
:48:42. > :48:44.consensus, she might, but there would be an awful lot of
:48:45. > :48:48.negotiations. The French position, by the way, briefly, is that
:48:49. > :48:57.Jean-Claude Juncker, this came out of the boat, the Democratic ballot
:48:58. > :49:00.-- came out of the boat. The situation is you only have to take
:49:01. > :49:08.the count. The council just takes it into account. It is not binding. Who
:49:09. > :49:10.does Francoise Hollande want? Again, the official position is that
:49:11. > :49:16.Jean-Claude Juncker would be totally entitled to have the job. Who did
:49:17. > :49:22.you call to find out who Francoise Hollande ones? I haven't spoken to
:49:23. > :49:26.anyone in the palace. I think it's a fascinating question, who would
:49:27. > :49:28.David Cameron choose instead of Jean-Claude Juncker. What is
:49:29. > :49:33.interesting is the number of pro-European Tories who I spoke to
:49:34. > :49:37.who thought that Jean-Claude Juncker would be a terrible candidate. Even
:49:38. > :49:44.the most ardent British Europhile recognises the argument that this is
:49:45. > :49:50.a figure from an old view of Europe. Who does Labour want? They will be
:49:51. > :49:53.glad not to get drawn into the conversation and will happily let
:49:54. > :49:59.this be private grief for the opposition. If I were a betting man
:50:00. > :50:04.I would still bet on in the end Jean-Claude Juncker being president.
:50:05. > :50:13.Angela Merkel will be determined to see otherwise. There is a Frenchman
:50:14. > :50:28.lurking in the woodwork here who is very credible, but might be to
:50:29. > :50:31.independent minded for our taste, and we might regret what we wish
:50:32. > :50:35.for. Well, if he's independent minded, it won't happen.
:50:36. > :50:38.Now to the ongoing saga over extremism in schools,
:50:39. > :50:40.which first kicked off in March when a letter allegedly revealed
:50:41. > :50:44.a plot for Islamist groups to take control of a school in Birmingham,
:50:45. > :50:48.Ofsted's initially launched an investigation into one school,
:50:49. > :50:51.Park View, but later expanded their so-called
:50:52. > :50:55."Trojan Horse" investigations to 21 schools across Birmingham.
:50:56. > :50:58.That report is due to be released next week.
:50:59. > :51:01.But yesterday, a leaked copy of the report into one of the schools,
:51:02. > :51:05.Golden Hillock, criticised the school for being "inadequate" and
:51:06. > :51:08.said that "Too little is done to keep students safe from the risks
:51:09. > :51:19.All of this has sparked a war of words between the Education
:51:20. > :51:24.Secretary Michael Gove, and the Home Secretary, Theresa May.
:51:25. > :51:27.In a letter that appeared on the Home Office website this week,
:51:28. > :51:33."Is it true that Birmingham City Council was warned
:51:34. > :51:39.Is it true that the Department for Education was warned in 2010?
:51:40. > :51:46.What followed was a flurry of statements aiming to calm
:51:47. > :51:49.the storm, saying "Michael Gove and Theresa May are working together to
:51:50. > :51:53.ensure we get to the bottom of what has happened in Birmingham and take
:51:54. > :52:02.Yesterday, Prime Minister David Cameron was asked about the row.
:52:03. > :52:16.I think it is very important that we recognise that you have to deal not
:52:17. > :52:24.only with violent extremism, but also the toleration of extremist
:52:25. > :52:27.views from which that can grow, and we are driving changes to deliver an
:52:28. > :52:31.agenda to prevent that. As the issues of the last day or so, I will
:52:32. > :52:36.get to the bottom of who has said what and what has happened and I
:52:37. > :52:41.will sort it all at once-itch -- once I finish the importance
:52:42. > :52:49.meetings here. You can see the into -- irritation that he is dealing
:52:50. > :52:50.with Barack Obama and these huge issues and the minutiae of
:52:51. > :52:53.Westminster comes in. I'm joined now by the writer
:52:54. > :52:55.and commentator Myriam Francois-Cerrah and by the
:52:56. > :53:04.commentator and founder of the West Toby Young, let me come to you. Free
:53:05. > :53:07.schools and academies are not regulated by local authorities, it
:53:08. > :53:10.is in the end of the responsibility of central government. Should the
:53:11. > :53:14.government not be more aware of what was happening in the schools? It's
:53:15. > :53:21.hard to say without having seen the Ofsted report. I think we get them
:53:22. > :53:25.early next week. We will see what's been going on and how long. There is
:53:26. > :53:32.clearly going to be a blame game next week, and it looks as though
:53:33. > :53:37.Michael Gove's mentioning of Charles Farr at the board meeting last week
:53:38. > :53:41.was an attempt to fire the first shot in the blame game. He was
:53:42. > :53:46.briefing against the Home Office in the lunch with the times. The
:53:47. > :53:49.context he was briefing against him was that he thought the Home Office
:53:50. > :53:52.should be doing more to drain the swamp and tackle the roots of
:53:53. > :53:55.extremism and not just knock the crocodiles on the head when they
:53:56. > :54:01.emerge from the swamp. That has been the running dispute between him and
:54:02. > :54:07.the Home Office. Let me move beyond the Westminster minutiae, because
:54:08. > :54:11.what people are not concerned about that, they want to know if there is
:54:12. > :54:18.a real problem in a handful of schools of Islamist extremism. What
:54:19. > :54:24.is your view? Judging from the early previews we have seen of the
:54:25. > :54:29.report, and the answer to seems to be yes and something needs to be
:54:30. > :54:32.done about it. Is this the right time to go in and subject the
:54:33. > :54:36.schools to scrutiny that we are about coming to an examination
:54:37. > :54:39.week? But often that's an excuse for not doing anything. It's always
:54:40. > :54:45.going to be a bit disruptive. Once you have got wind something going
:54:46. > :54:49.on, you must investigate and then remediate if necessary? Is there a
:54:50. > :54:53.problem? Let's get some facts straight. The Trojan horse letter is
:54:54. > :54:59.widely accepted to have been a false letter. There is no evidence of
:55:00. > :55:03.extremist links, say Birmingham council, so that basis from which
:55:04. > :55:08.Michael Gove has taken it upon himself to go out and put these
:55:09. > :55:11.schools through this intense media and educational scrutiny at a time
:55:12. > :55:14.when the young students are undergoing one of the most momentous
:55:15. > :55:21.times in their lives is a spurious documenting. You are saying there is
:55:22. > :55:25.no evidence of Islamic extremism in some Birmingham schools? I am saying
:55:26. > :55:27.there is no evidence of the so-called Trojan horse plot, and
:55:28. > :55:32.given that there is no evidence of the actual letter being real, we
:55:33. > :55:36.have to question on what basis Michael Gove is going into the
:55:37. > :55:42.schools. Back to me is the expansion of the term extremism to go beyond
:55:43. > :55:45.violent extremism, to include all Muslims. All Muslims are the swamp,
:55:46. > :55:49.and now Muslim children have to be the source of investigation. Address
:55:50. > :55:55.for me the point about the Trojan horse. It may be that the letter was
:55:56. > :55:58.fake, but it doesn't mean that the allegations it contained were not
:55:59. > :56:02.true. It subsequently emerged that even though there is some doubt as
:56:03. > :56:08.to the prominence of the letter, the substance of the allegations, it
:56:09. > :56:11.looks like it might be true. What evidence do you have? We will see
:56:12. > :56:17.next week. What evidence do you have from the leaked reports? There are
:56:18. > :56:21.many schools in this country that could be accused of cultural
:56:22. > :56:24.isolation, not least the school attended by our Prime Minister and
:56:25. > :56:28.many members of the Cabinet. You want to talk about segregation on
:56:29. > :56:33.sexual lives, most of them attended a school that was segregated
:56:34. > :56:37.according not only to sexual lines, but also according to class lines,
:56:38. > :56:39.so if you want to talk about cultural isolation there are many
:56:40. > :56:44.schools in this country that could be accused of that. It is because
:56:45. > :56:51.they are Muslim, that is the problem. I think it is an
:56:52. > :56:57.overreaction to say that all Muslims have been placed under suspicion as
:56:58. > :57:00.a result of the investigation. I don't think it is the fact that
:57:01. > :57:05.there are Muslims in the school that has been the trigger for the
:57:06. > :57:11.investigation. It absolutely is. I den think it is. You mention various
:57:12. > :57:14.types of isolation, and it looks like men and women have been
:57:15. > :57:20.segregated in the school. It is one thing saying eating is single sex
:57:21. > :57:27.school, but it is private and isn't subject to the same regulations --
:57:28. > :57:30.eaten schools. There are single sex state schools. My children attend a
:57:31. > :57:36.single sex school. That happens everywhere. There are various roles
:57:37. > :57:39.you are meant to observe in schools, and one of them is you are not
:57:40. > :57:42.supposed to segregate children according to their gender in
:57:43. > :57:45.lessons. You are also supposed to teach them the theory of evolution
:57:46. > :57:50.in biology. You are meant to teach them about other religions. And as
:57:51. > :57:55.far as you can tell in the report that those are the issues coming to
:57:56. > :57:58.hand, but there are evidence of internal grievances. If you
:57:59. > :58:02.inspected any school the way these schools have been inspected, you
:58:03. > :58:06.would find an internal grievance. Segregation of people in a coed
:58:07. > :58:10.school that is not a faith school, is that acceptable? They're already
:58:11. > :58:16.coed school separating their students? To this extent? In
:58:17. > :58:22.lessons? I can't see you taking issue with Catholic school. What is
:58:23. > :58:26.the answer to the question? Do you find it acceptable to sexually
:58:27. > :58:33.segregate children in assemblies and lessons? It's not about what I
:58:34. > :58:36.think. We are asking you. It's irrelevant about what I think
:58:37. > :58:39.because I don't support the separation in classes. We have to
:58:40. > :58:41.leave it there because we have run out of time. Thanks to all of our
:58:42. > :58:43.guests. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday
:58:44. > :58:46.with the Sunday Politics and I'll be joined by Scotland's
:58:47. > :58:53.Deputy First Minister, Nicola And there will be more follow-up
:58:54. > :58:55.from the Newark by-election. How could you miss that?
:58:56. > :59:14.This is one of the most fire-prone regions on earth.