:00:36. > :00:37.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:38. > :00:41.Five schools put in special measures for failing to do enough to protect
:00:42. > :00:50.How were these problems in Birmingham missed?
:00:51. > :00:52.After last week's public spat, the Prime Minister chairs
:00:53. > :00:56.a Cabinet extremism task force in Downing Street to discuss
:00:57. > :01:01.Hundreds of new councillors were elected last month.
:01:02. > :01:04.Has this volunteer workforce got any idea what they're doing?
:01:05. > :01:17.And his or her master's voice - the perils of being a special advisor.
:01:18. > :01:21.Let's start this morning with allegations
:01:22. > :01:26.of Islamic extremism infiltrating several Birmingham schools.
:01:27. > :01:29.Later on today, Ofsted will publish their reports on the
:01:30. > :01:32.emergency inspection of 21 schools embroiled in
:01:33. > :01:36.the so-called Trojan Horse plot to promote a strict
:01:37. > :01:43.It's expected that six schools will be put into special measures,
:01:44. > :01:45.a move which could result in their governing bodies being
:01:46. > :01:51.It comes after some Birmingham schools put
:01:52. > :01:55.on hastily arranged lessons and assemblies on Christianity to
:01:56. > :02:00.give a false impression to inspectors of religious harmony.
:02:01. > :02:04.In future schools will may not get the usual 24 hours notice as
:02:05. > :02:08.David Cameron pushes for lightning inspections after schools were found
:02:09. > :02:12.to have axed part of the curriculum, segregated boys and girls and had
:02:13. > :02:18.unsuitable religious speakers at assemblies.
:02:19. > :02:21.David Cameron has now personally taken charge of the situation after
:02:22. > :02:26.the very public fallout between Education Secretary Michael Gove
:02:27. > :02:32.Mr Gove's allies accused Ms May of failing to
:02:33. > :02:36."drain the swamp" of extremism, while the Home Office responded
:02:37. > :02:42.by saying they'd warned Michael Gove about the schools in 2010.
:02:43. > :02:44.This morning the Park View Educational Trust
:02:45. > :02:48.confirmed that three of its schools were now in special measures.
:02:49. > :02:51.Vice-chair David Hughes told the gathered media that
:02:52. > :03:00.the Ofsted condemnation of his schools was unfair.
:03:01. > :03:11.The problem is the knee jerk reactions of some politicians
:03:12. > :03:14.undermining the great work we do in community cohesion across the
:03:15. > :03:18.cities. They have put most children at substantial risk of not being
:03:19. > :03:23.accepted as equal, legitimate and valued members of British society.
:03:24. > :03:28.They have allowed suspicion to be cast on the aspiration of their
:03:29. > :03:34.parents and any other one -- anyone else who believes that these
:03:35. > :03:45.children deserve the same level of education than any other child. Was
:03:46. > :03:50.our national security under threat from these schools? It would appear
:03:51. > :03:55.not. There is a big difference between radicalisation leading to
:03:56. > :04:02.worries about security, which is the Home Secretary's early work, and the
:04:03. > :04:07.issues around whether teaching is acceptable, is it part of a broader
:04:08. > :04:10.liberal curriculum, is there something going wrong in the school
:04:11. > :04:13.and its values? Obviously, that is what we are dealing with here and we
:04:14. > :04:19.are dealing with it in a muddled way. The education funding agency
:04:20. > :04:23.did not have a really in this area because their job is funding. The
:04:24. > :04:28.inspection regime is about quality of education, including the
:04:29. > :04:32.curriculum, but we also have trusts where they don't have to follow the
:04:33. > :04:39.national curriculum because Michael Gove has got a two track policy.
:04:40. > :04:43.Only schools granted as community schools have to legally follow the
:04:44. > :04:49.national curriculum. We are looking at a number of schools that were
:04:50. > :04:56.academies that you championed as Education Secretary. The whole point
:04:57. > :04:59.of these schools is freedom to be distinct, freedom to set their own
:05:00. > :05:05.emphasis on the national curriculum, to employee teachers
:05:06. > :05:10.that were not necessarily qualified. Those freedoms have come back to
:05:11. > :05:13.bite you and this administration. I am happy to accept any
:05:14. > :05:20.responsibility for what I did but mine were freedoms to, not freedoms
:05:21. > :05:23.from. All schools had to adhere to a light touch national curriculum and
:05:24. > :05:28.I am recommending in my report that we had to return to that. There is
:05:29. > :05:33.innovation and creativity but there is an entitlement for all children
:05:34. > :05:42.to have that basic curriculum. Also, that there should be local oversight
:05:43. > :05:47.but there is nothing apart from the Secretary of State and the
:05:48. > :05:51.Department. The lack of responsibility at local level, other
:05:52. > :05:55.than from the school governors and the Secretary of State, isn't
:05:56. > :06:00.working. Do you think that that has to be revisited? You have outlined
:06:01. > :06:03.what you think is necessary in terms of having oversight. I come back to
:06:04. > :06:08.the argument, it was supposed to be free from local authority control.
:06:09. > :06:14.Did you accept that the problem with that has been that you can have a
:06:15. > :06:18.situation which has occurred in some Birmingham schools, or that is what
:06:19. > :06:22.is being claimed, that you can have groups of people trying to take over
:06:23. > :06:25.schools that do not fit with what some people would call British
:06:26. > :06:31.values and British culture? There are two Mike Berry separate issues.
:06:32. > :06:36.Whether schools should run themselves and whether we should
:06:37. > :06:40.have a national curriculum that underpins the kind of values we
:06:41. > :06:46.presume we all hold in common, whatever our faith. I think today,
:06:47. > :06:49.we have got to distinguish between radicalisation that is out with what
:06:50. > :06:54.we would find acceptable in any school and a legitimate right for
:06:55. > :07:04.those of different faiths to have their values and their voice heard.
:07:05. > :07:08.There is a difference. I am involved in the publication of a book about a
:07:09. > :07:15.different view of the Prophet Muhammad, about the view of Islam,
:07:16. > :07:18.which can set with and be part of an interfaith community in a perfectly
:07:19. > :07:23.acceptable way. We have got to establish that. Otherwise, we are
:07:24. > :07:26.going to have a two tier system where you can have very strong
:07:27. > :07:32.Christian views but not strong Muslim views and the two must be
:07:33. > :07:45.allowed to sit alongside each other. We are just going to pause and go to
:07:46. > :07:48.Birmingham. Some of the representatives, particularly from
:07:49. > :07:52.Park View Academy, have been robust in their defence and have rejected
:07:53. > :07:56.the findings into their schools. They said inspectors were looking
:07:57. > :08:03.for extremism, but it was a knee jerk reaction from politicians. What
:08:04. > :08:07.is the feeling you are? I am in a part of Birmingham which is almost
:08:08. > :08:13.entirely Muslim in terms of its population. Most of the schools have
:08:14. > :08:18.a Muslim population of 95 to 100%. The people that run the schools say
:08:19. > :08:25.that naturally, they reflect that local community and there will be an
:08:26. > :08:29.Islamic ethos in there. Other people criticised that imposition of
:08:30. > :08:32.religious ethos in what is supposedly non-faith schools. What
:08:33. > :08:36.you heard this morning was a strong defence of this scope from the vice
:08:37. > :08:41.chairman of the governors and one of the senior teaching staff. # of this
:08:42. > :08:45.school. They have been speaking about this for three months either
:08:46. > :08:50.via social media or in the papers are on-air, ever since this first
:08:51. > :08:53.emerged. This particular school, which is seen as being at the centre
:08:54. > :08:58.of this alleged plot, has tonight there was a plot in the first place
:08:59. > :09:04.and points to its excellent exam assault and says, here we are in
:09:05. > :09:06.inner-city Birmingham, an area with traditionally low aspiration and
:09:07. > :09:10.deprivation, and look at the exam results and how good the children
:09:11. > :09:17.are when they leave and go on to A-levels. They are facing having
:09:18. > :09:23.governors sacked, the body of leadership having to leave the
:09:24. > :09:28.school? That is exactly right. There are six schools which will be put
:09:29. > :09:33.into special measures including this one and another two who are part of
:09:34. > :09:36.the same academy trust. That means an interim executive board can be
:09:37. > :09:41.brought into the school to take over the running of it. Incidentally, in
:09:42. > :09:45.another part of the city today, there is an Islamic faith school,
:09:46. > :09:49.state funded, where and IEP is trying to get in for the fourth time
:09:50. > :09:54.since it was put into special measures and on each occasion the
:09:55. > :09:57.school has refused to them in, parents have gathered outside to
:09:58. > :10:02.form a human chain to stop that happening. I would not be surprised,
:10:03. > :10:05.frankly, given the strength of feeling in this community, if you
:10:06. > :10:09.would not see similar pictures outside schools like this when those
:10:10. > :10:17.inspectors turn up to try and take over. Let's pick up on one of those
:10:18. > :10:25.points. If you are looking at the schools, what Ofsted was there to do
:10:26. > :10:29.was check how well the school was doing and look at exam results. What
:10:30. > :10:36.the leadership team are saying Park View Academy is that they are doing
:10:37. > :10:43.extremely well, it is beacon of hope. They said, why are we being
:10:44. > :10:49.condemned? Are they ignoring the acquisitions of segregation, error
:10:50. > :10:55.for Brits because at assemblies, a hastily arranged assembly about
:10:56. > :10:59.Christianity? There has been a lot going on which is unacceptable. Exam
:11:00. > :11:04.results are important but only one part of the measure of what is
:11:05. > :11:09.taking place in a school. The recommendations put forward six
:11:10. > :11:14.weeks ago were that you should have an entitlement to a broad small
:11:15. > :11:18.liberal curriculum everywhere, but there should be a director of school
:11:19. > :11:19.standard who could oversee this at local level, that you
:11:20. > :11:21.standard who could oversee this at local level, that should end up
:11:22. > :11:27.training governors and have a means of monitoring governors in schools
:11:28. > :11:30.and that you should have a scrutiny function from the local authority
:11:31. > :11:34.that does not interfere with the leadership of the school or the
:11:35. > :11:37.running of it, but checks what is happening. If that is happening, we
:11:38. > :11:44.would be able to deal with these measures which is not going to -- in
:11:45. > :11:48.a manner which is not going to cause friction such as that demonstrated
:11:49. > :11:52.in Birmingham and the real fear of a stand-off between the Muslim
:11:53. > :11:55.community and what they see is authority at with their own
:11:56. > :12:00.experience. We have a task to pull people together. I hope that in the
:12:01. > :12:06.statement in the, This afternoon there be a recognition about trying
:12:07. > :12:14.to heal the wounds as well as protecting children. What do you
:12:15. > :12:19.think of lightning expections? -- inspections? It is a way of
:12:20. > :12:23.diverting attention from the fundamental issues about what values
:12:24. > :12:30.do we want to instil in our schools, can we agree those across
:12:31. > :12:33.faiths or no faith, can we ensure there is accountability and
:12:34. > :12:37.oversight and can we sort out the model as to whether all schools just
:12:38. > :12:44.run themselves and are completely independent, or whether we do want
:12:45. > :12:47.the coalescing and avoid the atomisation that the chief inspector
:12:48. > :12:51.talked about a few weeks ago? Thank you.
:12:52. > :12:54.In last month's local elections 4,259 local councillors were
:12:55. > :12:57.voted in, but do they know what they've got themselves into?
:12:58. > :13:00.Eleanor's been to meet someone who's done the job for 12 years
:13:01. > :13:07.and a man who's stepping into politics for the very first time.
:13:08. > :13:15.From the outside of the town hall, I can't believe how many hours I spent
:13:16. > :13:19.in meetings in the building. But I am really proud to have been part of
:13:20. > :13:30.a team of people that turned Hackney Council round from a municipal
:13:31. > :13:37.basket case into if reforming council. This councillor had decided
:13:38. > :13:43.to stand down before last month's local elections. Why have you given
:13:44. > :13:48.up? Nothing to do with politics. Surely personal reasons, because you
:13:49. > :13:51.wanted to move house and I have young children, and I wanted to
:13:52. > :13:56.spend more time with them. What are the things you are not going to
:13:57. > :14:01.miss? It is quite liberating not to have things in your diary for four
:14:02. > :14:04.years in advance and also, not to have to ask with Chief Whip of your
:14:05. > :14:09.political group for permission to go on holiday. If you could give one
:14:10. > :14:14.piece of advice to a newly elected councillor, what would it be? You
:14:15. > :14:18.are a councillor for at least four years so it is a marathon rather
:14:19. > :14:24.than a sprint. Lucas Pouille now, done it and got the T-shirt. But
:14:25. > :14:30.down the road in Essex, I will meet a newly elected councillor. I wonder
:14:31. > :14:34.if they know what they have let themselves in for? Graham Snell is
:14:35. > :14:38.dipping his feet into politics for the first time, having just been
:14:39. > :14:53.elected as Age UK councillor in Iraq. -- in their work. What do you
:14:54. > :14:55.want to achieve? I want to try and make a difference to people's lives,
:14:56. > :14:58.for the people in my make a difference to people's lives,
:14:59. > :15:04.for the people ward. Hopefully it will pan out OK. Seeing as you are a
:15:05. > :15:09.newly elected councillor, The Daily Politics loves a quiz, so we are
:15:10. > :15:16.going to test you on your local knowledge - what town is Thurrock 20
:15:17. > :15:23.with? No idea. It is in Germany. You have lost me. Apparently it is
:15:24. > :15:30.twinned with how many people live in the borough of Thurrock? That is
:15:31. > :15:41.approximately 160,000. What is the motto of Thurrock? It is something
:15:42. > :15:48.like - from the Thames to the rest of the world. I think you have
:15:49. > :15:54.passed that test, well done. Graham has now become one of more than
:15:55. > :16:00.eight team thousand councillors across England. The Local Government
:16:01. > :16:06.Association says 96% are white and around two thirds are men. This is
:16:07. > :16:11.the facility 's room, it is a bit of a cupboard under the stairs. This
:16:12. > :16:18.used to be our office before we got some more people elected. I have
:16:19. > :16:25.been lost so many times around here now... Like finding his office,
:16:26. > :16:32.Graham's entrance into politics has taken a bit of time. I have not even
:16:33. > :16:35.got my name on the door yet. And we are joined now by the chairman of
:16:36. > :16:43.the Local Government Association, Sir Merrick Cockell. Welcome to the
:16:44. > :16:50.programme. 4,259 new councillors - who helps them find their feet? MPs
:16:51. > :16:55.always say when they first come to the House of Commons, they are lost.
:16:56. > :17:03.Councils are pretty good, they plan ahead, and they all have induction.
:17:04. > :17:06.I think we try not to inundate people the moment they become a
:17:07. > :17:10.councillor. It goes on for several weeks and months, and they begin to
:17:11. > :17:18.learn about how democracy works at a local level. What about when a
:17:19. > :17:20.council changes hands overnight? You imagine this sudden shift of
:17:21. > :17:27.ideology, which could affect services? Yes, I think when
:17:28. > :17:31.political control happens, particularly when it is a shock,
:17:32. > :17:37.then a lot of people are literally running around in the next few days.
:17:38. > :17:41.But we have got those officers, like civil servants, and they prepare
:17:42. > :17:47.ahead, like they do in government, they look to who might win and they
:17:48. > :17:51.prepare. Although they might be relatively headless chickens for the
:17:52. > :17:57.first day or two, actually, it settles down after that. But is
:17:58. > :18:07.there a wholesale rejection of what has gone on before? Well, they watch
:18:08. > :18:13.what is said in manifestos, but one has to say, there is not much money
:18:14. > :18:18.around these days, so you may have grand ideas, but you have got to pay
:18:19. > :18:22.for them, and if you want to change the way things are operating, have
:18:23. > :18:28.got to have your other alternative. So, the flexibility of rapid
:18:29. > :18:38.wholesale change I think is reduced. Looking at representation,
:18:39. > :18:41.18,000 councillors, 96% white, two thirds, men, which is quite
:18:42. > :18:48.staggering, what do you say to that? It is not good. It is something we
:18:49. > :18:53.and all parts of local government and all of the political parties
:18:54. > :18:55.recognise, you may reflect your individual area, but when you look
:18:56. > :19:00.at the overall percentages, it is stark. And you have not even
:19:01. > :19:11.included young people in that, the average age of a councillor. It is a
:19:12. > :19:16.slow process, but we are trying to do it, to attract different types of
:19:17. > :19:20.people. It takes up time to put your forward to be a councillor. It in
:19:21. > :19:24.binges on your career, on your work. So people are more inclined to
:19:25. > :19:29.be older, to be retired, and those who have more choice regarding their
:19:30. > :19:35.time, which might push against people in the prime of their lives.
:19:36. > :19:41.One big change is the growing number of UKIP councillors, with the party
:19:42. > :19:44.gaining 155 seats, but a lot of people see UKIP as a party
:19:45. > :19:49.determined to pull Britain out of Europe, so how will they get on in
:19:50. > :19:54.local government? They have already been there, in local government.
:19:55. > :19:56.They are part of our independent group within the Local Government
:19:57. > :20:00.Association. They will have to learn what it is to be councillors have.
:20:01. > :20:07.Cannot spend all your time talking about Europe, you have got to talk
:20:08. > :20:13.about local public services. You have got to lead your community,
:20:14. > :20:17.which includes education. These are big matters which councillors have
:20:18. > :20:23.to be accountable for. To the public schools have a stranglehold on the
:20:24. > :20:28.opera levels of British public life, and if so, how do you tackle the
:20:29. > :20:33.problem? One Conservative MP wants at least a quarter of places to be
:20:34. > :20:37.reserved for non-feepaying pupils. It would not be the first attempt to
:20:38. > :20:41.break the class divide in our schools. This was a football match
:20:42. > :20:50.between Eton and eight Durham miners' team in 1937.
:20:51. > :20:57.NEWSREEL: The unemployed lads play regularly to keep themselves fit.
:20:58. > :21:08.The home side get the upper hand and score the first goal. After tea, the
:21:09. > :21:10.miners keep up the pressure, with the Italians trying to keep down the
:21:11. > :21:21.ball. A great bit of footage. We are
:21:22. > :21:25.joined now by the Conservative MP Dominic Raab, who has written a
:21:26. > :21:28.report on how to make Britain more of a meritocracy. We are also joined
:21:29. > :21:37.by the guardian columnist Owen Jones. I am afraid I left about
:21:38. > :21:42.three months ago. Behind the times! Up until quite recently! The new
:21:43. > :21:50.Britain is a meritocracy, said Tony Blair, in 1997 - what did he mean?
:21:51. > :21:55.The term was actually invented as a dystopia, it was Michael Young who
:21:56. > :22:00.invented it, to mean, basically, you accept inequality, but those who are
:22:01. > :22:03.at the top, you accept to be there, because of merit. A hospital
:22:04. > :22:09.cleaner, for example, paid the minimum wage, keeps our hospitals
:22:10. > :22:13.from being ravaged by disease, compared to an advertising
:22:14. > :22:17.executive, trying to sell us fast food, is paid vast amounts of money.
:22:18. > :22:24.For me, it is about equality. The manic will not like this, but I do
:22:25. > :22:29.think there is an audacity, shamelessness, in your position.
:22:30. > :22:33.This is the day that the Child Poverty And Social Mobility
:22:34. > :22:40.Commission has reported that by 2030, 3500 children will be in
:22:41. > :22:45.poverty. The day that food banks have reported 300,000 children which
:22:46. > :22:50.they are feeding at the moment, on the sixth richest country on the
:22:51. > :22:57.Earth, because of policies you have voted for, and then you come to a TV
:22:58. > :23:00.studio to vote for social mobility and meritocracy. It is like a robber
:23:01. > :23:06.baron coming into a TV studio to talk about petty theft. This is the
:23:07. > :23:14.usual left-wing dogma we get these days. 3000 children having to rely
:23:15. > :23:18.on charity? There is a big issue with social mobility in this
:23:19. > :23:22.country, we know that, if you come there today with the post-war
:23:23. > :23:28.generation, the chances are significantly less, despite 13 years
:23:29. > :23:34.of Labour. The evidence shows it remains stalled. Ed Miliband will
:23:35. > :23:37.try to take us down the thesis that we should have this big Ella
:23:38. > :23:43.Terri-Ann utopia, but actually, the Tories in the centre-right have won
:23:44. > :23:46.the economic argument. They clearly haven't. You have presided over the
:23:47. > :23:55.longest fall in living standards since the Victorian era. You call
:23:56. > :23:59.that winning the argument! If you look at what the British public say
:24:00. > :24:03.about what we are doing and the contrast in choice between Miliband
:24:04. > :24:09.and David Cameron. You are behind in the polls! But I do accept there is
:24:10. > :24:14.an issue around social fairness. Stewardship is the strength of the
:24:15. > :24:17.Tories, but I do think we need a narrative around social fairness,
:24:18. > :24:22.which should be rooted in meritocratic, not a Geller Terri-Ann
:24:23. > :24:27.principles. By the way, I think all of Owen's statistics can be
:24:28. > :24:41.disputed. -- not eat Geller Terri-Ann principles. Let's have a
:24:42. > :24:52.look at schools. If you were given the task to create more social
:24:53. > :24:58.mobility in education, Owen Jones, how would you do it? Firstly, it is
:24:59. > :25:02.not just education, there are things like unpaid internships, which means
:25:03. > :25:07.that only those who live off the bank of mum and dad can get a job. I
:25:08. > :25:13.believe that Dominic Raab himself had an unpaid internship in 2011.
:25:14. > :25:20.There is a gap in vocabulary between affluent kids and poor kids of 18
:25:21. > :25:25.months. We need huge weasels is put into early years of education. We
:25:26. > :25:30.need to deal with the fact that housing is related to diet and
:25:31. > :25:34.poverty. I went to a school, my primary school, which is in the
:25:35. > :25:38.bottom 5% by result. The only boy to go to the sixth form, let alone
:25:39. > :25:46.university, Moore went to prison. Not because I am brighter, but
:25:47. > :25:54.because the odds were stacked in my favour. Is it not true that this was
:25:55. > :26:06.suggested to the Government but they could not stomach it, putting all of
:26:07. > :26:16.that money into early years? Look, I have got 13 measures here, you have
:26:17. > :26:18.picked one of them. Early intervention is something we should
:26:19. > :26:27.look at, but it is difficult when you start asking the state to become
:26:28. > :26:32.sorry but parents. It is not that, it is just evening out the playing
:26:33. > :26:39.field. We had 13 years of huge public investment... And are you
:26:40. > :26:42.saying schools did not improve? I cannot speak for every school, but
:26:43. > :26:47.if you look at the evidence on social mobility, it remains
:26:48. > :26:53.stalled, that is what the LSE found. Secondly, if you look at the
:26:54. > :26:59.rankings during that time, numeracy and literacy among 15-year-olds
:27:00. > :27:03.plummeted. There is social mobility, but it is downwards, thanks to your
:27:04. > :27:09.government. Your government is making it a lot worse. What might be
:27:10. > :27:15.interesting is for Owen, rather than having cheap shots... Internships,
:27:16. > :27:25.do you think it is acceptable for you as an MP to have unpaid
:27:26. > :27:30.internships? What about entrenching wealth, is it not true that
:27:31. > :27:33.actually, if you are the offspring of a family which has an expensive
:27:34. > :27:40.home in London or the south-east, that you have got more chance of
:27:41. > :27:43.succeeding... ? Absolutely. And I have got 13 concrete, tangible
:27:44. > :27:52.ideas, rather than waiting for some utopian tomorrow. I am not talking
:27:53. > :27:57.about utopia. I pay my in turns expenses so that they can compute
:27:58. > :28:02.back and forth. I have no separate allowances for them. -- commute. You
:28:03. > :28:11.are giving an advantage to people who can live off the bank of mum and
:28:12. > :28:17.dad. Yes, there should be better staffing funding for internships,
:28:18. > :28:24.quite right. There is a scholarship scheme, people like Hazel blears, to
:28:25. > :28:27.her credit, have pioneered that. You are encouraging a situation where
:28:28. > :28:36.only those who live off the bank of mum and dad can get into politics.
:28:37. > :28:42.We will have two ended there. In a moment, we will talk to two of Fleet
:28:43. > :28:47.Street Fox finest, outside Parliament, waiting to cover an
:28:48. > :28:53.action packed week. This afternoon, Gordon Brown will beginning a speech
:28:54. > :28:59.to journalists. Expect the Scottish referendum to be on the menu. David
:29:00. > :29:02.Cameron flies to Stockholm for a meeting with his Swedish and Dutch
:29:03. > :29:08.and German counterparts as he battles to stop Jean-Claude Juncker
:29:09. > :29:09.from becoming president of the European Union. On Thursday, Michael
:29:10. > :29:15.Gove will announce European Union. On Thursday, Michael
:29:16. > :29:17.the next wave of free schools will be in England. And George Osborne
:29:18. > :29:25.will give his Mansion house speech on the same day. On Friday,
:29:26. > :29:28.constituencies in Liverpool and Cambridge will meet to decide
:29:29. > :29:32.whether to support Nick Clegg or back a leadership contest. And the
:29:33. > :29:39.great unknown is whether this week will see a full Cabinet reshuffle?
:29:40. > :29:48.So, what more could you want? Joining us now is Alison Little and
:29:49. > :29:54.Kevin Schofield, welcome to both of you. Let's talk about Michael Gove
:29:55. > :29:57.and Teresa May. It is deemed in Westminster that Michael Gove won in
:29:58. > :30:10.that spat - do you think Theresa May has been injured by it? House The
:30:11. > :30:15.loss of Fiona Cunningham has been a big blow to her. It all went a bit
:30:16. > :30:19.wobbly last week with unpleasant consequences for her. To Reza is
:30:20. > :30:22.seen as the bigger loser in this, though it was put to me at the
:30:23. > :30:29.weekend, somebody suggested that Theresa May could use this perhaps
:30:30. > :30:33.to her advantage to show that she is ruthless enough to let go of one of
:30:34. > :30:41.her closest advisers, perhaps sharing that streak that a leader
:30:42. > :30:48.might need. I don't know if it can be spun that way. Has Michael Gove
:30:49. > :30:52.overstepped the mark himself, and will he be seen as too hot to handle
:30:53. > :30:59.in terms of his role as Education Secretary? He has been picking a few
:31:00. > :31:03.fights of late and it has got the Prime Minister's back-up. Alison is
:31:04. > :31:09.right. On the face of it it looks like Theresa May has been the
:31:10. > :31:14.biggest loser. Michael Gove is going to have a tough challenge this
:31:15. > :31:19.afternoon. Ofsted will publish their reports into these 21 Birmingham
:31:20. > :31:27.schools and it is going to be up to him to prove that the government was
:31:28. > :31:31.not asleep. That accusation is that he knew about this as far back as
:31:32. > :31:36.2010 but did not know about it. He is not out of the woods yet. What
:31:37. > :31:44.about the reshuffle? We were always going to expected this week. Does
:31:45. > :31:48.that still stand? At the moment we are expecting an early next week for
:31:49. > :31:56.various scheduling reasons, which probably means it has started now.
:31:57. > :32:02.The money is on next week. There are calls for Michael Gove to be moved
:32:03. > :32:06.in the reshuffle. There is a view that he should have more of a
:32:07. > :32:10.Conservative Party role, perhaps the Cabinet Office or something like
:32:11. > :32:14.that. People are saying he has started talking too much at meetings
:32:15. > :32:20.and is annoying everybody. One thing any Prime Minister does not want is
:32:21. > :32:27.a big row like we have just had. If he moves, -- one of the participants
:32:28. > :32:31.in is portrayed in the context of the row. To move Michael Gove might
:32:32. > :32:36.be like a punishment or a demotion so it is a tricky one. I would be
:32:37. > :32:41.astonished if Theresa May was moved. I think she is widely seen as a
:32:42. > :32:44.success. How angry is the Prime Minister with Michael Gove? When he
:32:45. > :32:52.does this re-shuffle, he is unlikely to move Theresa May. This was always
:32:53. > :33:02.supposed to be about promoting more women. Well that's still be the
:33:03. > :33:12.point? -- will that still be? I think so. When you ask how angry the
:33:13. > :33:17.Prime Minister is, him and Theresa May had to put out a joint statement
:33:18. > :33:21.after the row with Michael Grove at eight o'clock in the morning. I
:33:22. > :33:25.think he is a bit annoyed. In terms of the reshuffle it will be lower
:33:26. > :33:31.down the Cabinet ranks and he will be looking to promote a few women.
:33:32. > :33:40.There is still an idea that he has a woman problem. On the Liberal
:33:41. > :33:43.Democrats and Nick Clegg's speech, everyone was interpreting it as a
:33:44. > :33:50.lurch to the left. Is that how you see it? Yes, but he is trying to
:33:51. > :33:59.steer this tricky course that he has got in coalition. It was called a
:34:00. > :34:04.steer to the left because he said we would tax the rich and borrow from
:34:05. > :34:07.investment, but he is also trying to make a division with Labour because
:34:08. > :34:20.he is saying the borrowing would be good or a wink rather than that of
:34:21. > :34:21.Gordon Brown. -- good borrowing. It is a strange situation in coalition.
:34:22. > :34:25.Thank you both. We're joined now for the rest
:34:26. > :34:29.of the programme by a panel of MPs. The Conservative, Chris Skidmore,
:34:30. > :34:31.Labour's Anas Sarwar and Let's get back to
:34:32. > :34:36.the story we started the programme with allegations of a Trojan Horse
:34:37. > :34:49.plot at Birmingham schools. A headteacher said he had told the
:34:50. > :34:52.Department of Education about the problems of entries in 2010, why did
:34:53. > :34:57.Michael Gove do nothing? To start with we need to set out clearly what
:34:58. > :35:01.is happening. The Ofsted reports published today are not saying there
:35:02. > :35:07.is extremism flourishing in schools, Al-Qaeda are not taking over the
:35:08. > :35:11.schools. To have this in context, we have got 21% of Ofsted reports being
:35:12. > :35:14.published. The Prime Minister issuing firm need a ship about
:35:15. > :35:22.setting out a course of action. I do not think we should blow this up to
:35:23. > :35:25.saying this is a Trojan Horse with aggressive language. It is
:35:26. > :35:29.detrimental to the fact that people want to set up schools, faith
:35:30. > :35:34.schools with great discipline, and I do not want this to blow out of
:35:35. > :35:39.proportion. Do you think it has been blown out of proportion by
:35:40. > :35:43.Conservative ministers? No, I think the media has picked it up, the
:35:44. > :35:48.language is inappropriate in a context where faith schools, the
:35:49. > :35:51.vast majority do a great job in raising children with beliefs and
:35:52. > :35:56.values that are right for this country. I do not want to see that
:35:57. > :36:00.affected. Ofsted inspectors have been sent in to look at these
:36:01. > :36:04.schools and the leadership teams from a number of these schools said
:36:05. > :36:09.they came looking for extremism, they came looking for an Islamic
:36:10. > :36:15.fundamentalist style being imposed on children. Why were they sent in
:36:16. > :36:19.looking for those things in the first place? You cannot have one
:36:20. > :36:28.argument and another saying nothing was done. There was clearly action
:36:29. > :36:32.taken, appropriate action taken, and as a result... But nothing was
:36:33. > :36:36.found, so why were they said then in the first place? The logical
:36:37. > :36:42.argument does not make sense because no action was taken. The logic if
:36:43. > :36:46.they should not have gone in in the first place. The schools are saying
:36:47. > :36:49.it was not necessary and now a number have been put into special
:36:50. > :36:51.measures where the leadership teams will be sacked and they were doing
:36:52. > :36:56.well as far as Ofsted will be sacked and they were doing
:36:57. > :36:59.concerned. That is a separate issue for Ofsted.
:37:00. > :37:06.concerned. That is a separate issue measures may disagree but we have to
:37:07. > :37:11.have and independent and accountable system where Ofsted can measure the
:37:12. > :37:17.performance. Are they being infiltrated by Islamic
:37:18. > :37:22.fundamentalists? The ministers have the facts. I have sympathy with what
:37:23. > :37:24.Chris is saying and I share his views about the integrity of faith
:37:25. > :37:30.schools and the importance of education. We have got ourselves and
:37:31. > :37:35.a political mess when we should focus on the children. Who got us
:37:36. > :37:39.into it? Samak two Cabinet ministers are playing politics instead of
:37:40. > :37:46.focusing what is important, having quality education for our kids and
:37:47. > :37:52.no extremism. Not demonising people. Have the been demonised by the
:37:53. > :37:56.reports and the political context? I do not want to downplay the
:37:57. > :38:00.seriousness of the allegations. If there is any hint of extremism being
:38:01. > :38:05.taught anywhere, whether it is school, university or anywhere else,
:38:06. > :38:09.it needs talented head-on. Two senior government ministers were too
:38:10. > :38:15.busy focusing on their own internal squabbles because their political
:38:16. > :38:19.futures are more important to them than rooting out extremism and
:38:20. > :38:24.protecting all faiths and all communities, and protecting our
:38:25. > :38:28.children. It is very un-edifying. We have allies of Michael Gove saying
:38:29. > :38:32.Theresa May failed to three in the song of extremism. Is that how you
:38:33. > :38:39.view it? I do not know who made those comments. I do not agree with
:38:40. > :38:41.that at all. What is at issue is that the Home Office and the
:38:42. > :38:46.Education Department clearly have joint responsibilities and it is
:38:47. > :38:49.about hammering out those responsibilities. It is a process
:38:50. > :38:54.issue. Once we come up with a solution we can, on positively. Do
:38:55. > :38:58.you accept there is a difference between a security threat, people
:38:59. > :39:05.who have been trained towards extremism, but on the other hand, if
:39:06. > :39:10.you have schools who are seen as a broad breeding ground for policies
:39:11. > :39:15.are cultural practices that don't fit in a British way of life, that
:39:16. > :39:20.that is dangerous as well? These are separate issues and it is right that
:39:21. > :39:25.both are reported. Faith schools of all faiths have a role to play in
:39:26. > :39:28.our society and education system. Good one to recognise they need to
:39:29. > :39:32.be forces for community cohesion will stop they need openness and
:39:33. > :39:36.transparency for introducing people to different ideas they would not
:39:37. > :39:42.otherwise encounter. That is good practice. We need to make sure that
:39:43. > :39:45.they are not instead turned into silos and segregation. Have they
:39:46. > :39:51.been? We will find out this afternoon. We have seen many
:39:52. > :39:57.reports. You think that some of these schools have been in full
:39:58. > :40:00.treated by Muslim extremists? I would not want to prejudge any
:40:01. > :40:05.report. You have heard from the schools. Some of these are really
:40:06. > :40:10.respectable schools doing hard work and a good job of education in their
:40:11. > :40:14.local communities. For those names to be tarnished in such a way, it
:40:15. > :40:20.could take years to get their reputation back. Is it wrong to put
:40:21. > :40:23.them into special measures? There are a number of schools in special
:40:24. > :40:32.measures he said have high standards of education. The best and so is to
:40:33. > :40:36.base it on facts, let see how the experts judge what is happening in
:40:37. > :40:41.these schools. Let's not base it on politics and power play. Is it not
:40:42. > :40:49.the case that if you free schools from local education policies you
:40:50. > :40:51.give them the freedom to set out the stink of education and are you
:40:52. > :40:57.saying you don't like it and you're going to change it? The fact that we
:40:58. > :41:00.now have schools setting up their own curriculum and flexible
:41:01. > :41:07.curriculum is to teach and raise standards is vital for raising
:41:08. > :41:11.standards. There are 85 free schools now, 26,000 local authority schools.
:41:12. > :41:14.There are hundreds of local authority schools going into special
:41:15. > :41:18.measures every year and there is an undue focus, just because the
:41:19. > :41:25.enemies of freedom are turning around and trying push it in the
:41:26. > :41:30.opposite direction. You said there was a lack of oversight. If warnings
:41:31. > :41:36.were made in 2010 and the claim is that Michael Gove did not react at
:41:37. > :41:46.the time, is that not because the drug of McCann runs" might whether
:41:47. > :41:53.it is Michael Gove or his officials, it is run from London. Whether clues
:41:54. > :41:57.that if you had looked specifically at Birmingham and provided local
:41:58. > :42:00.oversight that could have flagged up these concerns earlier, those are
:42:01. > :42:04.questions we need the answers to. That is what all MPs will be
:42:05. > :42:09.listening very carefully to win the reports are published. Did Michael
:42:10. > :42:14.Gove inflame the situation with the sort of language used? I do not know
:42:15. > :42:18.whose language it was but it is inflammatory. It does not help
:42:19. > :42:24.anyone to talk about draining the swamp. It does not address the issue
:42:25. > :42:29.we have been focusing on. We want to sort out these problems. We need to
:42:30. > :42:40.use language which is appropriate and which does not cause its own
:42:41. > :42:45.brands. There have been other examples, that just because
:42:46. > :42:50.something is a faith school, there is something wrong with that. I want
:42:51. > :42:59.to see all of the schools treated on a level playing field.
:43:00. > :43:06.The election results have forced all the parties to re-evaluate. Several
:43:07. > :43:09.senior figures have questioned their strategy. The shadow work content
:43:10. > :43:14.and Secretary Rachel Reeves warned last week that sometimes the party
:43:15. > :43:19.took their traditional voters for granted. Now, they are being offered
:43:20. > :43:23.an alternative by UKIP. Peter Hain said yesterday he thought Ed
:43:24. > :43:26.Miliband could win the next election but it would be hard to get an
:43:27. > :43:32.outright majority. Although I do not think UKIP will do
:43:33. > :43:36.as well as they did in the European elections at the general election
:43:37. > :43:39.next year, they will do sufficiently well and there will be other
:43:40. > :43:45.parties, including the Liberal Democrats and the Greens, to make it
:43:46. > :43:50.a much closer contest than perhaps we have been used to before. I think
:43:51. > :43:56.that Ed Miliband is well placed to lead the government in the future
:43:57. > :43:59.and when people see him as Prime Minister, they will realise that
:44:00. > :44:05.they have elected the right person even if they do not see that at the
:44:06. > :44:11.moment. Do you agree? He hinted that Labour's biggest problem is that
:44:12. > :44:16.they do not see Ed Miliband as Prime Minister material? I agree with
:44:17. > :44:20.Peter that Ed Miliband would be a fantastic Prime Minister. But the
:44:21. > :44:27.voters do not see him as a potential prime ministers. -- primer missed a
:44:28. > :44:34.. But if you look at the pathway we have taken from 2010, Ed Miliband
:44:35. > :44:39.has done a fantastic job of commandeering the political agenda.
:44:40. > :44:51.He has taken the lead and I agree with Peter. You could look at it the
:44:52. > :44:56.other way and say, he is being realistic about Ed Miliband, and the
:44:57. > :45:01.way he is viewed by the public. Rachel Reeves has said Labour has
:45:02. > :45:07.been taking voters for granted, that is true, isn't it? I come from
:45:08. > :45:13.Scotland and in Scotland we have had the defeat in 2010, and we
:45:14. > :45:18.recognised that we lost elections for a reason. The electorate are
:45:19. > :45:23.never wrong. We lost because we were not doing and saying the right
:45:24. > :45:28.things. She is saying the core vote for Labour is beginning to drain
:45:29. > :45:34.away, some of its two UKIP? I do not think UKIP will do anywhere near as
:45:35. > :45:38.they did in the European elections. UKIP normally do well in these
:45:39. > :45:41.European elections, it is an election which sadly some people see
:45:42. > :45:52.as being something you can protest in. I think given the choice between
:45:53. > :45:55.Ed Miliband and David Cameron, people will decide to back the party
:45:56. > :46:02.which is looking out for workers, and looking out for fairness. So,
:46:03. > :46:05.why has UKIP been attractive to SAM SMITH:
:46:06. > :46:09.Voters in parts of the north? Do they think that Labour has not
:46:10. > :46:25.answered their questions on issues like immigration? I think it is
:46:26. > :46:31.because people are genuinely angry with the political establishment.
:46:32. > :46:35.But you are not in government? They are angry with politicians of all
:46:36. > :46:39.colour, the political establishment, the energy companies, the markets,
:46:40. > :46:42.and they do not think the establishment works for them, and
:46:43. > :46:53.that is the challenge for the Labour Party. Do you think you can get an
:46:54. > :47:00.people do not want the status quo. The Labour Party has never been a
:47:01. > :47:06.party of the status quo. But you Are a party of the political
:47:07. > :47:10.establishment. Let's talk about the Liberal Democrats, and Nick Clegg is
:47:11. > :47:15.about to make a speech, his first since the party's disastrous
:47:16. > :47:22.performance in the local and European elections. We can see the
:47:23. > :47:33.room filling up just before he comes to take the stand. He will be trying
:47:34. > :47:37.to lay out a distinctive approach to tax and Duncan Hames, what is he
:47:38. > :47:40.going to be saying? Well, I think he will reflect on the very bad results
:47:41. > :47:46.that we had in the elections last month. But he will also look
:47:47. > :47:51.forward, he will be racial in people that whilst we remain very much
:47:52. > :47:57.committed to clearing up the mess in the public finances, that we do not
:47:58. > :48:02.have some ideological desire to continue shrinking the state. But
:48:03. > :48:06.rather, while we have done the job of bringing the public finances back
:48:07. > :48:10.into the balance, we want to invest in a better future for the country,
:48:11. > :48:19.invest in the infrastructure which will be underpinning future economic
:48:20. > :48:23.prosperity. He will be able to spell out the areas where we will be
:48:24. > :48:28.committed to investing in the future of the country. The things you could
:48:29. > :48:37.not do when you came into government, with the rhetoric of
:48:38. > :48:42.posterity, so was that all wrong? Early on in the Parliament, we
:48:43. > :48:46.recognised that we needed to turn things around. Danny Alexander has
:48:47. > :48:55.been championing investment in infrastructure. And future cuts? The
:48:56. > :48:57.Conservatives are going to rely exclusively on cuts to welfare
:48:58. > :49:03.spending, in order to balance the books. We think that is unfair, to
:49:04. > :49:09.look just at the working age poor to balance the books in the future. We
:49:10. > :49:12.are committed to a mansion tax, which will mean that some people
:49:13. > :49:19.with the broadest shoulders will be asked... So people could be
:49:20. > :49:32.expecting higher taxes when we go into the next election? We WILL be
:49:33. > :49:37.asking for a mansion tax, yes. Duncan Hames, arguably, the Liberal
:49:38. > :49:41.Democrats, after those disastrous, as you said, election results, have
:49:42. > :49:46.realised that they have lost a lot of voters to Labour. They are now
:49:47. > :49:50.going to return to the left to try to bring some of those people back
:49:51. > :49:55.of the ones who came to you during the Iraq war period. We only got
:49:56. > :50:01.about 1 million votes in these elections last month. The other
:50:02. > :50:07.parties each did not get much more than 4 million votes. Actually what
:50:08. > :50:11.we saw and where I agree with the analysis of Anas Sarwar earlier, is
:50:12. > :50:14.that there is a large number of people despairing with all of the
:50:15. > :50:19.political parties, they do not trust anyone of us to govern on our own
:50:20. > :50:28.which is why I think it is likely that we will have another coalition.
:50:29. > :50:34.Would you favour your two parties forming a coalition, on the basis of
:50:35. > :50:38.a mansion tax, you want to cut less, you would tax a bit more, these are
:50:39. > :50:43.things which are absolutely in line with what Duncan Hames is talking
:50:44. > :50:50.about? We will be campaigning for an outright majority. Do you agree with
:50:51. > :50:55.spending more on infrastructure? Absolutely. Do you believe in
:50:56. > :50:59.cutting less? I believe we should be taxing more at the top. Do you
:51:00. > :51:06.believe in a mansion tax? Absolutely. So, what is not to like
:51:07. > :51:13.about the two of you in coalition? It is all about ideology, and what
:51:14. > :51:16.people will be voting for. We cannot go back to reckless borrowing, we
:51:17. > :51:25.have to have borrowing which is specifically intended to lay the
:51:26. > :51:28.foundations for a better economy. Under the Labour government, any
:51:29. > :51:34.item of expenditure would be described as investment. Could you
:51:35. > :51:38.do a coalition with Labour? We would have to listen to the electorate.
:51:39. > :51:43.And what about Nick Clegg, can he continue? Absolutely, and he had
:51:44. > :51:49.unanimous support from his colleagues at our committee last
:51:50. > :51:54.week. The political situation reminds me a little bit of Gordon
:51:55. > :52:01.Brown. It is almost like a political death spiral. Is that where you
:52:02. > :52:05.are? Nick Clegg is, not the Conservatives. I mean the coalition?
:52:06. > :52:08.There is a need for the coalition to stay together in order to deliver
:52:09. > :52:16.that economic stability, over five years. But we need to make sure that
:52:17. > :52:29.we stay in coalition right up until May. You want Nick Clegg to use the
:52:30. > :52:33.rest of his political life... He is on a political death spiral, you
:52:34. > :52:40.want him to use the rest of his political life... That is
:52:41. > :52:43.unfortunate, but it was probably due to the legacy of the Lib Dems'
:52:44. > :52:49.manifesto, with the promise on tuition fees, which Nick Clegg
:52:50. > :52:53.probably now regrets. Are they a Liberal party, are they a Social
:52:54. > :53:01.Democratic Party? Until they resolve that, in the long term, I think they
:53:02. > :53:04.will struggle. Fiona Cunningham, Theresa May's special adviser, has
:53:05. > :53:13.fallen on has soared after getting involved in the spat train Theresa
:53:14. > :53:26.May, her boss, and Michael Gove. -- has fallen on her sword.
:53:27. > :53:40.MUSIC PLAYS. # You have got a friend in need.
:53:41. > :53:50.# And you are miles and miles from your nice warm bed.
:53:51. > :53:58.# You've got a friend in need. Yes, you've got a friend in need.
:53:59. > :54:11.# You've got a friend in need. # You've got troubles, I've got
:54:12. > :54:15.them, too. . # There isn't anything I wouldn't do
:54:16. > :54:19.for you. # We stick together, see it through,
:54:20. > :54:23.because you have got a friend in need.
:54:24. > :54:41.# You've got a friend in need. For those of you who did not
:54:42. > :54:45.recognise those advisers being thrust into the spotlight, they were
:54:46. > :54:52.Damian McBride, Charlie Whelan, Jo Moore, Dominic Cummings and Fiona
:54:53. > :54:56.Cunningham. We have not got time to tell you exactly what they all did!
:54:57. > :55:00.We are joined now by Tony Blair's former special adviser, who managed
:55:01. > :55:06.to avoid being sacked! Is it a thankless task? Look, the business
:55:07. > :55:11.of government is by its nature political, and not just
:55:12. > :55:14.administrative. You need to have political staff which are there as
:55:15. > :55:19.well to assist the Secretary of State in their functions and carry
:55:20. > :55:23.out those political duties. I do not think anyone goes into it with a
:55:24. > :55:30.great sense of job security, but it is a fantastic privilege to do it.
:55:31. > :55:34.Isn't the complaint about the Blair years, about sofa government, about
:55:35. > :55:38.special advisers overstepping the mark? We saw Charlie Whelan and
:55:39. > :55:44.Damian McBride, Gordon Brown's people, overstepping what they were
:55:45. > :55:50.supposed to do in terms of negative preteens? If you look at Damian
:55:51. > :55:52.McBride, it is pretty clear he was an representative of special
:55:53. > :55:58.advisers as a whole. -- negative briefings. He did not represent the
:55:59. > :56:01.kind of advisers which I saw when I was with the Labour government. If
:56:02. > :56:08.you look at this story about Fiona Cunningham, ultimately, it is not
:56:09. > :56:11.about one member of staff. It is a story about two senior politicians
:56:12. > :56:14.manoeuvring for the Tory leadership at a time when they should be
:56:15. > :56:17.focusing on what is a really important issue about what is
:56:18. > :56:23.happening in the schools in Birmingham. Should she have been
:56:24. > :56:27.sacked? I do not know the it seems Teresa May has come out worse, given
:56:28. > :56:34.that it was Michael Gove that started it, with the briefings. But
:56:35. > :56:39.Fiona Cunningham printed the letter, that was supposed to be crime, would
:56:40. > :56:44.you have done that? I do not know the circumstances. We have seen
:56:45. > :56:48.statements from Teresa May, and frankly, when ministers claim to be
:56:49. > :56:55.shocked by what their special advisers have got up to, it is about
:56:56. > :57:01.as credible as the captain in Casablanca, I have to say! So, in
:57:02. > :57:06.your mind, special advisers are always acting on the say-so of their
:57:07. > :57:09.ministerial bosses, even in the case of Adam Smith, claiming he acted
:57:10. > :57:16.alone, not doing what Jeremy Hunt had told him to do, was he not
:57:17. > :57:24.telling the truth? One criteria which marks out special advisers is
:57:25. > :57:27.loyalty. You are an adviser to Michael Gove, is it the case that
:57:28. > :57:32.you only do the bidding of the minister? I was an adviser in
:57:33. > :57:37.opposition, paid for by the Conservative Party, not by the
:57:38. > :57:41.taxpayer. I was political because I was working on behalf of the
:57:42. > :57:44.Conservative Party. I think there is a distinction between the
:57:45. > :57:52.personalities of special advisers. Some work on issues, some work on
:57:53. > :57:59.press and communications. I worked on statistics and free schools
:58:00. > :58:04.policy. But when it comes to being in government, you have a corporate
:58:05. > :58:07.responsibility to make sure that you do not damage the government. If any
:58:08. > :58:12.special adviser becomes the story, and does something inappropriate,
:58:13. > :58:15.then I think they need to fall on their sword. Do you think Teresa May
:58:16. > :58:21.will feel wounded without her special adviser? Well, it is a
:58:22. > :58:28.lonely place. You have got thousands of civil servants, so the role of
:58:29. > :58:33.the special adviser is to be that bridge, so yes, it probably will be
:58:34. > :58:40.a lonely place. Are there too many special advisers, yes or no? I
:58:41. > :58:47.cannot answer that one. Well, there is one fewer now. On that prophetic
:58:48. > :58:51.note, we will end it there! The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC
:58:52. > :58:56.One now, and I will be here again tomorrow. Former Home Secretary
:58:57. > :59:07.Charles Clarke will be with me. Goodbye.
:59:08. > :59:07.MUSIC: "The Yeah Yeah Yeah Song" by the Flaming Lips
:59:08. > :59:08.# Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah
:59:09. > :59:12.MUSIC: "The Yeah Yeah Yeah Song" by the Flaming Lips
:59:13. > :59:15.# Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah