:00:36. > :00:37.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:38. > :00:39.Promote British values in British schools.
:00:40. > :00:43.So says Michael Gove after a report by Ofsted found that
:00:44. > :00:46.some Muslim governors had created a "culture of fear and intimidation"
:00:47. > :00:53.A backlog of half a million at the passport office.
:00:54. > :00:59.The improving economy or government cuts?
:01:00. > :01:02.We'll be asking if you have a few choice words to say about
:01:03. > :01:17.Remind us what your stage name is? I am Alan Howling Laud Hope, official
:01:18. > :01:20.leader of the Monster Raving Loony Party!
:01:21. > :01:23.And they've been cheering us up at by-elections since I was
:01:24. > :01:29.But is the end nigh for the Monster Raving Loonies?
:01:30. > :01:33.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is
:01:34. > :01:38.Charles is a former Home Secretary and a former Education Secretary.
:01:39. > :01:43.Now first today, let?s talk about Labour.
:01:44. > :01:56.Well, there is clearly a long way to go. All the polls show that the
:01:57. > :01:58.league is holding up, but it is small by comparison with previous
:01:59. > :02:04.parliaments. For me, the main story is the economy. They have to
:02:05. > :02:07.convince people in the country that we will not go back to bad economic
:02:08. > :02:12.circumstances of the past and that we have an economic vision for the
:02:13. > :02:19.future. Both of those are tasks were out of work needs to be done. Do you
:02:20. > :02:21.admit that the Tory argument that Labour worsened the financial mess
:02:22. > :02:25.that Britain found itself in is still a cogent one, that Labour has
:02:26. > :02:30.not been able to combat the argument, and the economy is
:02:31. > :02:35.recovering? It is very cogent. I don't think it is true. Labour has a
:02:36. > :02:38.much better tale to tell about the economy than is widely believed. But
:02:39. > :02:43.you are correct, the Conservatives have put this story across and it is
:02:44. > :02:48.widely believed in the country. Labour have not been able to contest
:02:49. > :02:54.it effectively. Is it because it is too difficult to try and go against
:02:55. > :02:58.growth returning and unemployment continuing to go down, where as
:02:59. > :03:02.Labour have been talking about what they call a cost of living crisis
:03:03. > :03:06.instead? I think we need a stronger narrative about what we did right
:03:07. > :03:09.and wrong in government. We did many things right and something is
:03:10. > :03:14.wrong. We have not been prepared to admit the mistakes we made. We have
:03:15. > :03:21.rested a great deal on assuming that the conservative strategy would
:03:22. > :03:24.succeed and that plan A would not work. That was unwise, because the
:03:25. > :03:27.Conservatives have succeeded in getting the economy onto a more
:03:28. > :03:32.positive path, which leaves us little room to be now. The cost of
:03:33. > :03:37.living crisis, as Labour call it, is that a powerful enough narrative?
:03:38. > :03:47.Have they relied too much on that? It is a real description of the
:03:48. > :03:52.situation many people feel. But we need a story that is about more than
:03:53. > :03:57.just life as people experience it, but more about how Labour would
:03:58. > :03:59.change those conditions. Looking at the European elections, for the
:04:00. > :04:04.first time in 30 years, and opposition has failed to win the
:04:05. > :04:09.European elections. YouGov said Labour should be terrified. Are you?
:04:10. > :04:13.I am myself, because I think Labour is resting a lot on UKIP doing well
:04:14. > :04:16.enough to remove a large number of seats from the Tories. And the
:04:17. > :04:20.European elections reinforced that view that UKIP could do well, but I
:04:21. > :04:27.don't believe it myself. I think they will do well to get one MP,
:04:28. > :04:32.probably Nigel Farage. As Labour underestimated UKIP taking votes
:04:33. > :04:35.from them? At the end of the day, as the European elections showed, it
:04:36. > :04:41.was a startling election night. There was a straight switch from the
:04:42. > :04:45.Lib Dems in 2090 UKIP in 2014. That is because the "fed up with all of
:04:46. > :04:51.them" vote had switched from the Lib Dems before they were in government
:04:52. > :04:55.to UKIP. The way to do with that is not to attack UKIP, but to make sure
:04:56. > :04:58.we get our messages across so that Labour have something to offer. Do
:04:59. > :05:04.you think Labour has been complacent about its core vote? I think that
:05:05. > :05:10.would be an unfair charge. Taking it for granted? There is a 35% strategy
:05:11. > :05:15.which says that Labour should focus on its core vote. I have never
:05:16. > :05:20.thought that is the right approach. You have to appeal to the whole
:05:21. > :05:25.country. I don't think it has taken the vote for granted, but it has not
:05:26. > :05:28.worked out how to talk to people in an effective way. What about
:05:29. > :05:32.immigration? There is a divide, because I speak to a lot of Labour
:05:33. > :05:37.politicians and you get a divide between those who think it was right
:05:38. > :05:42.to apologise for, in their words, allowing too many migrants to come
:05:43. > :05:46.into Britain during the 2000s, and those who say we should be proud of
:05:47. > :05:53.that because it led to a booming economy. Which side are you on?
:05:54. > :05:57.Need. -- neither. The key thing is to convince people that we are
:05:58. > :06:01.controlling immigration into this country. When I became Home
:06:02. > :06:04.Secretary, we made a number of changes and the situation got
:06:05. > :06:10.wetter, but people believed it was not under control -- the situation
:06:11. > :06:13.got better. Were the numbers too high when you were Home Secretary? I
:06:14. > :06:17.have never thought the numbers are the issue. That is why the Tories'
:06:18. > :06:22.slogan of trying to reduce immigrants to 100,000 a year is
:06:23. > :06:28.mad. It will not succeed. Immigration is a fact of life. It is
:06:29. > :06:32.important and we have to control it properly and make sure that
:06:33. > :06:35.immigrants are fully part of our society when they are here. This
:06:36. > :06:47.numbers game is not the right way to look at it. So John was wrong when
:06:48. > :06:52.he said he would like to see fewer EU migrants? I think he has been
:06:53. > :07:01.wrong about this consists me. He has overstated the threat. He looks at
:07:02. > :07:04.the Poles in his constituency of Southampton, and that is not
:07:05. > :07:07.correct. What about Ed Miliband? Is he a man that enough people in the
:07:08. > :07:14.country can imagine as prime minister? The polls tell you know. I
:07:15. > :07:17.think a lot of this stuff about him being geeky is nonsense. Policy
:07:18. > :07:22.since pick-up labels like that and that is the way it goes. At the
:07:23. > :07:25.moment, he has to convince people he is the best person to lead the
:07:26. > :07:30.country. He does have the capacity to lead the country, but he pulled
:07:31. > :07:34.them believe it. Can Labour win an outright majority? It could if it
:07:35. > :07:38.gets its position right. I am as a mystic. I think it is difficult for
:07:39. > :07:43.us to do that, but it could be done. -- I am pessimistic. Gordon Brown
:07:44. > :07:47.has been showing his face a bit more over the campaign in Scotland. And
:07:48. > :07:55.he was in Westminster, hosting a journalists' lunch. Do you think his
:07:56. > :08:03.reputation has recovered since 2010? What was strong about his remarks
:08:04. > :08:10.yesterday was that he was passionate about Scotland being part of the
:08:11. > :08:13.UK. My own view is that he was not a successful prime minister or party
:08:14. > :08:18.leader, and it will take time for his reputation to change. He advised
:08:19. > :08:29.that David Cameron should take part in a TV debate with Alex Salmon. I
:08:30. > :08:34.don't have a view on that. I think Alistair Darling is running the
:08:35. > :08:38.campaign well. What about Tony Blair? We saw him giving a speech
:08:39. > :08:44.the week before last. Does he want another big job? He is in a tragic
:08:45. > :08:47.position. I think he does want a big job, but there is no chance of him
:08:48. > :08:52.getting it. He finished as prime minister relatively young. He has
:08:53. > :08:54.commend as gifts and I remain a supporter of his. He could
:08:55. > :09:00.contribute a great deal in the public sphere, and I would urge him
:09:01. > :09:07.to do that. Any role you have in mind? Nothing in particular, and
:09:08. > :09:12.that is the tragedy. It is ridiculous to think of him as a
:09:13. > :09:16.possible president of Europe in these circumstances. He is caught
:09:17. > :09:20.between wanting to contribute publicly and having a lot to
:09:21. > :09:26.contribute, and when he makes speeches like the one you mentioned,
:09:27. > :09:28.there is a lot of resonance for it. A few days afterwards, lots of
:09:29. > :09:32.people were talking about how tremendous he was. But he has no
:09:33. > :09:35.route back to make that contribution.
:09:36. > :09:38.Now, it's at this point in the show that we normally serve
:09:39. > :09:42.It's usually just for fun, which is another way
:09:43. > :09:47.But today we're offering nothing less than a coveted Daily Politics
:09:48. > :09:50.We had too many made at the printer?s, you see.
:09:51. > :09:55.To be in with a chance, we want you to come up with
:09:56. > :09:58.The prime minister's in Sweden at the moment, discussing who'll be
:09:59. > :10:02.the next president of the European Commission, and what better way to
:10:03. > :10:05.conduct your top-level meetings than enjoying a quick row on a lake?
:10:06. > :10:09.Here's David Cameron with German chancellor Angela Merkel,
:10:10. > :10:15.Sweden's PM Frederik Reinfeldt, and the Dutch leader Mark Rutte.
:10:16. > :10:19.So we want you to tweet your suggestions using
:10:20. > :10:24.the hashtag #bbcdp, or tweet us at daily-politics.
:10:25. > :10:27.And at the end of the show, Charles here will choose
:10:28. > :10:32.He might even come up with one of his own.
:10:33. > :10:35.Now to events in the House of Commons yesterday.
:10:36. > :10:38.Michael Gove and Theresa May took centre stage at the despatch box
:10:39. > :10:42.after both had appeared to blame each other for not tackling Muslim
:10:43. > :10:48.MPs were ready for a bit a of a showdown, the atmosphere was rowdy.
:10:49. > :10:51.But the barracking soon died down, and Michael Gove was heard
:10:52. > :10:55.in sombre silence as he described what has allegedly been going on
:10:56. > :11:13.Yes, we need to get to the bottom of what has happened in the schools in
:11:14. > :11:16.Birmingham, but it is thanks to this Education Secretary that the
:11:17. > :11:19.Department for Education has, for the first time, a dedicated
:11:20. > :11:24.extremism unit to try to stop this sort of thing from happening. At one
:11:25. > :11:29.secular primary School, terms such as white prostitute, unsuitable for
:11:30. > :11:34.primary children's ears, were used in Friday assembly is almost
:11:35. > :11:39.exclusively by Muslim staff. The school organised visits to Saudi
:11:40. > :11:42.Arabia, open only to Muslim pupils. And senior leaders told inspectors
:11:43. > :11:48.that a madrasah had been established and been paid for from the school's
:11:49. > :11:50.budget. Ofsted concluded that school was not adequately ensuring that
:11:51. > :11:54.pupils had opportunity to learn about faith in a way that promotes
:11:55. > :11:56.tolerance and harmony between different cultures. At one secular
:11:57. > :12:00.secondary school, staff told officials that the call to prayer
:12:01. > :12:04.was broadcast over the playground using loudspeakers. Officials
:12:05. > :12:09.observed lessons had been narrowed to comply with conservative Islamic
:12:10. > :12:13.teachings. In biology, students were told that evolution is not what we
:12:14. > :12:19.believe. The school invited the preacher to speak, despite the fact
:12:20. > :12:24.that he is reported to have said, give victory to Muslims in
:12:25. > :12:27.Afghanistan and all the Mujahideen all over the world, who Allah
:12:28. > :12:34.prepares for the jihad. Ofsted concluded that governors failed to
:12:35. > :12:37.ensure that requirements and other duties were met. The Education
:12:38. > :12:42.Secretary ridge speaks of requiring all schools to promote British
:12:43. > :12:46.values. All well and good. Amongst the greatest of British values is an
:12:47. > :12:52.education system which welcomes and integrates migrant communities and
:12:53. > :12:57.build successful citizens in a multicultural society which secures
:12:58. > :13:00.safety and standards for all. The Education Secretary is failing to do
:13:01. > :13:06.so. Would he agree that a British value is that young girls and women
:13:07. > :13:11.should be seen and heard in the classroom, not relegated to the back
:13:12. > :13:14.of the room? It is vital that schools should be places where young
:13:15. > :13:19.girls find their voices rather than feeling that they are being
:13:20. > :13:22.silenced. Our political correspondent Chris
:13:23. > :13:29.Mason is outside the House of Commons. Chris, we heard the head of
:13:30. > :13:32.a school, who said he warned ministers three years ago that
:13:33. > :13:35.Muslim hardliners were trying to take control of some Birmingham
:13:36. > :13:44.schools. Was Michael Gove sleep on the job? That is the accusation that
:13:45. > :13:49.has been thrown in his direction. Since 2010, when he became Education
:13:50. > :13:52.Secretary, what conversations went on around these allegations in
:13:53. > :13:56.Birmingham? Yes, there was this conversation between one headteacher
:13:57. > :14:04.and an Education Minister, Lord Hill. Did Michael Gove find out
:14:05. > :14:09.about that? There are also questions being thrown in his direction around
:14:10. > :14:12.the inspection regime. Sir Michael Wilshaw, the chief inspector of
:14:13. > :14:19.schools in England, was on Newsnight last night. He said he was glad the
:14:20. > :14:23.Education Secretary had now come round to his way of thinking about
:14:24. > :14:27.these so-called no notice inspections, that the inspectors
:14:28. > :14:30.would bring up a school and say, you are outside the front gates, let us
:14:31. > :14:34.in. I spoke to Ofsted this morning about the chain of events. When Sir
:14:35. > :14:41.Michael Wilshaw became chief inspector, he argued for no notice
:14:42. > :14:47.inspections. The Education Secretary said he agreed, but then having
:14:48. > :14:51.spoken to headteachers, they acknowledged that they would shorten
:14:52. > :14:55.the window to ringing up the day before, but would not have no notice
:14:56. > :14:59.to ensure that governors and headteachers could be informed and
:15:00. > :15:03.be on the premises. The row between the two ministers, Michael Gove and
:15:04. > :15:14.Theresa May, has hardly been edifying. The -- what do you think
:15:15. > :15:17.of it now? Have relations between them improve? You do not need to be
:15:18. > :15:20.a body language expert to look at those events in the Commons
:15:21. > :15:25.yesterday and see that Theresa May was not exactly cracking a smile as
:15:26. > :15:33.condiments were being paid to her by Michael Gove when he was on his
:15:34. > :15:37.feet. Theresa May has clearly been wounded, perhaps for a longer period
:15:38. > :15:40.than Michael Gove as a result of what has happened in the last couple
:15:41. > :15:45.of days, because in Fiona Cunningham, she has lost someone so
:15:46. > :15:49.important to her honour someone who was at her side for so long and is
:15:50. > :15:55.no longer there. Yes, Michael Gove had to appear in front of MPs
:15:56. > :15:58.yesterday. But then so did Theresa May. The longer term consequences
:15:59. > :16:04.are there for Theresa May to shoulder. Both of them will hope and
:16:05. > :16:08.I expect they will continue in their post after a Cabinet reshuffle, but
:16:09. > :16:11.both are wounded by what has happened in the last week. Both are
:16:12. > :16:19.not quite the ministers they were. With us now is Haras Rafiq
:16:20. > :16:22.from the anti-extremism think tank Quilliam and Talha Ahmad
:16:23. > :16:24.from the Muslim Council of Muslim Council of Britain. Welcome to you
:16:25. > :16:36.both. Let us go through the examples that
:16:37. > :16:40.have been cited by the findings and by Michael Gove yesterday. Is it
:16:41. > :16:48.right in your mind for boys and girls to be segregated in school?
:16:49. > :16:53.No. Is it right for a call to prayer to be broadcast by public speaker in
:16:54. > :16:58.the playground with Mac if it becomes compulsory as a policy of
:16:59. > :17:03.the school I think it is wrong. But if the school wants to accommodate
:17:04. > :17:06.prayers and do not make it compulsory for students I think it
:17:07. > :17:11.should be left to the judgement of the school administration. If it is
:17:12. > :17:18.enforced in any way then that would be wrong. But if the school decided
:17:19. > :17:21.in perhaps the school where 98% of pupils were Muslim, you think it
:17:22. > :17:27.would be all right to have a call for prayer? I think it is
:17:28. > :17:34.ridiculous. These are not faith schools but state funded, taxpayer
:17:35. > :17:38.funded schools that we pay for. These are secular schools, not
:17:39. > :17:43.Islamic schools. I saw something on television yesterday, boys were
:17:44. > :17:47.being interviewed. The first was put out there obviously to give the
:17:48. > :17:52.message for the school and another came along and said we are not
:17:53. > :17:57.allowed to speak to girls. The other said that is not Islamic. And the
:17:58. > :18:02.other said this is not an Islamic school, it is a state school. And
:18:03. > :18:14.that is the mistake, whether intentional or not. And there needs
:18:15. > :18:23.to be an end to denying extremism, all sorts of things. It is in your
:18:24. > :18:29.interest, if you'll allow me to speak, it is in your interests to
:18:30. > :18:39.blame us. We do not support extremism. We have always been
:18:40. > :18:42.critical of it. A state funded school must not be an Islamic
:18:43. > :18:46.school. But if the school decides to cater for the needs of the Muslim
:18:47. > :18:53.children without excluding others, it should be left to individual
:18:54. > :19:00.schools. How do you not exclude others, even if there was just one
:19:01. > :19:09.or 2% of non-Muslim pupils. Could ever be appropriate in a state
:19:10. > :19:16.funded school? Call to prayer itself is not an extremist thing to do. I'm
:19:17. > :19:25.talking about imposing any kind of Islam that is not an Islamic
:19:26. > :19:28.school? The charge is that these schools have been taken over by
:19:29. > :19:32.extremists but we have not seen any evidence of that. There is a big
:19:33. > :19:39.difference between saying that children will be prepared for jihad
:19:40. > :19:44.or just more in line Islamist location of schools. Do you think
:19:45. > :19:52.that Michael Gove or the inspectors had an agenda? If it was a witchhunt
:19:53. > :19:57.and none of the schools would have been praised as three of them wear.
:19:58. > :20:04.I do not see how anyone can deny extremism when Al-Qaeda sympathiser
:20:05. > :20:11.was addressing pupils. One other was leading anti-Christian chance in the
:20:12. > :20:19.morning. And another referred to fight prostitutes. We do not know if
:20:20. > :20:23.the school post that as a matter of policy. If it did happen like that I
:20:24. > :20:31.am surprised that no action was taken. What Ofsted said, the
:20:32. > :20:38.chairman was invited for his views... He should have been
:20:39. > :20:41.properly vetted. And that shows there is a failure of government in
:20:42. > :20:47.the school. It does not show that the school was condoning or
:20:48. > :20:53.fermenting extremism. Is it right for a special Christmas assembly to
:20:54. > :20:58.be cancelled. And for raffles to be banned in one school as not
:20:59. > :21:04.Islamic? I do not think that was right. And using the school budget
:21:05. > :21:11.to subsidise a school trip to Saudi Arabia that only Muslim pupils could
:21:12. > :21:18.join? I think that was a poor decision and not acceptable. Think
:21:19. > :21:21.those kind of things could provide a breeding ground for more extreme
:21:22. > :21:27.views or at the very least isolate those pupils from integrating into
:21:28. > :21:31.wider British society? I do not think the evidence is there to
:21:32. > :21:35.suggest that it could become a breeding ground. But I do think what
:21:36. > :21:39.does make a difference in terms of the children becoming better
:21:40. > :21:44.integrated is to provide them with better life chances. And some of
:21:45. > :21:49.those schools were doing exactly that. They were given the chance to
:21:50. > :21:55.become more active in community life. I believe if children are
:21:56. > :22:01.taught to hate and dehumanise the other, lived in isolation and try to
:22:02. > :22:07.think of the other as someone not to be liked, it is a short step to
:22:08. > :22:11.becoming radicalised. I think the main thing is the culture in the
:22:12. > :22:16.school. There has been an Ofsted process which has identified
:22:17. > :22:21.Bachrach is. And steps are being taken to sort it out. I think it is
:22:22. > :22:27.unfortunate that Michael Gove has been shrinking the role of the
:22:28. > :22:30.National Curriculum and in particular in this context, he wants
:22:31. > :22:37.to exclude religious education altogether from the National
:22:38. > :22:42.Curriculum. The framework for religious education has been created
:22:43. > :22:46.to make sure that all pupils in all schools are taught about all faiths
:22:47. > :22:51.in an unbiased way. I think that should be done and focused on and it
:22:52. > :22:55.is that Michael Gove has abandoned that. The thing about this
:22:56. > :22:59.particular process, there was bad practice in a small number of
:23:00. > :23:06.schools which was rooted out and must continue to be. But Ofsted
:23:07. > :23:11.actually rated one school as outstanding only in April this year.
:23:12. > :23:17.Two months later it is rated as inadequate. How could you get it so
:23:18. > :23:22.totally wrong, which ever way you look at it? Either they were not
:23:23. > :23:28.outstanding or they are not inadequate now. You are quite
:23:29. > :23:32.correct and Ofsted must have an inspection of itself to clarify how
:23:33. > :23:37.that could happen. Normally when there is an inspection you make a
:23:38. > :23:40.judgement in year one and it broadly continues over a period of time. I
:23:41. > :23:49.think inspection without notice is a good step. But that does not explain
:23:50. > :23:53.what you have just raised. I think Ofsted does have a lot of explaining
:23:54. > :23:58.to do. Ofsted is an independent regulatory body and people do what a
:23:59. > :24:04.lot of trust in them. What is more worrying is that some of the
:24:05. > :24:07.criticism they come up with now, that policies were put in place for
:24:08. > :24:11.example and not followed, these are the things that they should have
:24:12. > :24:19.picked up and clearly did not. They also need to look at, if you read
:24:20. > :24:25.the report, this calls are still graded as good or outstanding in at
:24:26. > :24:31.least two areas. -- the schools. How then do you decide to put them in
:24:32. > :24:37.special measures? In a school where there is quite a strict religious
:24:38. > :24:42.ethos, that can lead to strong discipline and good results but it
:24:43. > :24:47.does not cover the area of whether or not inappropriate practices are
:24:48. > :24:53.being imposed on a school at a completely different cultural
:24:54. > :24:58.level? Absolutely. Some of the inspectors failed -- found books in
:24:59. > :25:04.the library of a primary school that actually supported stunning and
:25:05. > :25:08.blogging. Use of the kind of things that Ofsted perhaps did not look for
:25:09. > :25:15.in the past and are doing now and should be doing. What does it mean
:25:16. > :25:23.to you as a phrase, bringing British values into the school? Liberty,
:25:24. > :25:28.democracy, pluralism, respect and tolerance for everyone else and
:25:29. > :25:33.being able to create children who go out and become positive members of
:25:34. > :25:39.society. Of course I agree wholeheartedly but I find it
:25:40. > :25:43.troubling that you identified the Muslim community as a community that
:25:44. > :25:51.has to justify again and again. That is troubling. I use an unhappy about
:25:52. > :25:56.the idea of British values being put into school? What you find
:25:57. > :26:01.troubling? These suggestions are made as if the Muslim community are
:26:02. > :26:06.not being educated or not subscribing to it. If it is about
:26:07. > :26:12.fairness and justice of course they should be educated in that. But
:26:13. > :26:17.Ofsted did find these schools were not providing people with an
:26:18. > :26:23.education to go out into the wider society. It is a difficult question.
:26:24. > :26:28.Because some of these schools were failing not long ago. Someone who
:26:29. > :26:33.leaves with a reasonably good education and perhaps not the best
:26:34. > :26:42.idea of the challenges we face as a society, or they succeed better than
:26:43. > :26:44.someone with no education? After 1945 minutes of people came to this
:26:45. > :26:49.country because the identified so-called goodish values. They
:26:50. > :26:54.wanted to be here on the basis. Including the economic and political
:26:55. > :27:03.freedoms and all the rest of it. We have to some extent codified that
:27:04. > :27:07.with citizen tests, for example. I do not think there is anything
:27:08. > :27:12.exceptional about this at all. It is only if it is taken as very narrow
:27:13. > :27:17.definition of what it would be. But the fundamental values which are in
:27:18. > :27:21.fact strongly opposed by the extremists, but those fundamental
:27:22. > :27:26.values ought to be endemic in every school as part of the culture. That
:27:27. > :27:33.is why I think religious education should be part of the National
:27:34. > :27:36.Curriculum. Do people in Birmingham feel like a community under
:27:37. > :27:41.suspicion as Mac I think they clearly do.
:27:42. > :27:43.Now, do you ever feel like filing your problems away
:27:44. > :27:48.If so, it appears you're not alone, because our guest of
:27:49. > :27:51.the day here has helped write a book about politicians doing just that.
:27:52. > :28:00.What do you do when a problem is too difficult to solve? Put it in the
:28:01. > :28:05.two difficult box, of course. That is where you'll find all kinds of
:28:06. > :28:09.issues that governments struggle with from immigration and banking
:28:10. > :28:15.reform to climate change. And now using a cast of heavy hitters,
:28:16. > :28:20.Charles Clarke has put all those too difficult political problems in one
:28:21. > :28:26.place. His new book. I will delve inside the box to discover some of
:28:27. > :28:33.the unsolvable subjects. First of all social care. Why is Europe
:28:34. > :28:40.policy area are difficult? -- your policy area. I have been wrestling
:28:41. > :28:46.with this for 15 years and no one agrees. These are very difficult
:28:47. > :28:50.economic issues involved and it is very expensive. And there are
:28:51. > :29:00.difficult social issues. We are speaking about people's lives. Is
:29:01. > :29:05.there a solution on the horizon? There is but it has taken some
:29:06. > :29:14.getting too. Next, House of Lords reform. Will House of Lords reform
:29:15. > :29:18.always be in the difficult box? It will be as long as the people who
:29:19. > :29:22.what to see the House of Lords elected refused to hear the other
:29:23. > :29:26.part of the problem which is what happens the House of Commons primacy
:29:27. > :29:31.and how do you have two elected houses? The people that elected the
:29:32. > :29:35.House of Lords would expect them to have some representative function
:29:36. > :29:46.for them. That is the nature of our democracy. And finally drugs. Why is
:29:47. > :29:53.drugs policy such a difficult area for politicians to solve? The
:29:54. > :29:58.politics of drugs policy before have been a nightmare. Society has not
:29:59. > :30:05.encouraged and open and honest debate. Minister -- ministers have
:30:06. > :30:10.fallen over each other to be seen to be tough on drugs. The political
:30:11. > :30:18.parties do not think there are our votes in it. I'm still stuck after
:30:19. > :30:30.looking in this box. I will let these ideas go and hopefully someone
:30:31. > :30:34.will come up with a solution! And we are joined by the Conservative peer
:30:35. > :30:41.and former cabinet minister Gillian Shephard, who questions in the book
:30:42. > :30:48.whether power is really an illusion? We got 29 together. And people had
:30:49. > :30:50.other subjects to discuss. Do you think that with those issues, it is
:30:51. > :30:55.not even worth the government trying to deal with them, if in the end,
:30:56. > :31:01.you could argue that with something like drugs, there has been so little
:31:02. > :31:04.progress? The question is legitimate, but it is the wrong
:31:05. > :31:09.hands. The reason why people tolerate politicians is that they
:31:10. > :31:12.believe Olive ticks will solve the problems they experience in society.
:31:13. > :31:17.-- politics will solve problems in society. If politicians actually
:31:18. > :31:22.believe there is nothing they can do about this, it is not a natural for
:31:23. > :31:27.people to think, why do I believe in politics in the first place? So it
:31:28. > :31:34.is important to try and solve these problems in a democracy. On the
:31:35. > :31:38.issue of democracy, is it just very difficult in a democratic system and
:31:39. > :31:43.now as a coalition to solve the big problems of our time? It is
:31:44. > :31:48.difficult, but it does not mean they cannot be solved. After all, a
:31:49. > :31:53.number of the issues Charles identified were pensions reform,
:31:54. > :32:05.where there have even movements, welfare reform, which is underway,
:32:06. > :32:10.immigration and EU, where we are not getting far with at the moment, but
:32:11. > :32:14.there has been much more attention paid, for example to the issues
:32:15. > :32:17.raised by the large numbers of elderly we have to cope with in our
:32:18. > :32:24.society. And on child poverty, we now have a commission which is
:32:25. > :32:29.making policy suggestions. But it is terrific to difficult in our
:32:30. > :32:32.democratic system, firstly because every government, when elected,
:32:33. > :32:40.knows that it will only have a few years to solve the problem is. And
:32:41. > :32:46.we are not good at passing on solutions from one government of a
:32:47. > :32:51.political party to another. And more overtly, there is a fair amount of
:32:52. > :32:58.pretending. When I wrote my chapter, I was obsessed with wondering if
:32:59. > :33:03.democracy was just too difficult in a world where there are global
:33:04. > :33:08.problems which threaten us all. Are you advocating dictatorship?
:33:09. > :33:11.Certainly not. I did come to an optimistic conclusion. Where there
:33:12. > :33:17.are overwhelming technological changes, as in the fear mentioned by
:33:18. > :33:24.Robert Harris, and where there is 24 is open -- where there is 24/7 media
:33:25. > :33:29.scrutiny, which I did not have to deal with in my day. What do you
:33:30. > :33:34.think the effect of the recession has been? When you talk about the
:33:35. > :33:47.government not having enough time to deal with big issues, is it about
:33:48. > :33:51.focus and priority? Is it when governments really put their minds
:33:52. > :33:52.to solving one or two things, they can do it? Yes, they can, providing
:33:53. > :33:56.they use language to the electorate that is clear enough for the
:33:57. > :34:00.electorate to identify with. If you use a lot of abstract noun about
:34:01. > :34:06.economic problems that people might be experiencing, sometimes they just
:34:07. > :34:25.lose interest. If you clearly identify the problems they are
:34:26. > :34:25.having, people will often espouse a solution. We saw this in Ireland.
:34:26. > :34:26.Ireland had a democratic solution to solution. We saw this in Ireland.
:34:27. > :34:28.its Eurozone crisis, where as in Greece and Italy, they imposed a
:34:29. > :34:32.technocratic solution and made their heads of government technocrats.
:34:33. > :34:38.Ireland chose the democratic route. And for the record, twice, public
:34:39. > :34:45.servants had to absorb a 10% pay decrease. This was done
:34:46. > :34:54.democratically, and hats off to Ireland for finding a democratic
:34:55. > :35:03.solution which people espoused, in distinction with what was going on
:35:04. > :35:14.in Italy and Greece. The other side of that coin is, was it too
:35:15. > :35:15.difficult in the Blair -Brown years, when arguably, there was a lot of
:35:16. > :35:16.money around, to make the difficult decisions? Tony Blair has said in
:35:17. > :35:24.the past that something he regrets is not reforming public services
:35:25. > :35:45.when he could. Is that because until the crisis point, you don't need to?
:35:46. > :35:54.That is partly true. You were right about focus. I argue in this book
:35:55. > :36:01.that you need to have focus, with all the democratic leaders agreeing
:36:02. > :36:06.to sort out a problem together. On immigration, it is striking that
:36:07. > :36:12.countries like Canada and Spain, where they have agreement across the
:36:13. > :36:23.democratic parties, these things are more solved than they are otherwise.
:36:24. > :36:27.At the university of East Anglia, we have a wide range of views being
:36:28. > :36:31.given. Your point about the recession is important because if
:36:32. > :36:33.you don't have recession, there is some money you can use to solve the
:36:34. > :36:35.problems. I think Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's governments missed an
:36:36. > :36:40.opportunity to solve some of these issues. Do you think we will ever
:36:41. > :36:42.have an acceptable drugs policy that actually solves the problem? Is it
:36:43. > :36:44.impossible? Not impossible. It is very difficult, for the reasons set
:36:45. > :36:47.in your interview, but it is impossible -- it is not impossible.
:36:48. > :36:48.Alcohol and tobacco create at least as much damage as cannabis. It is
:36:49. > :36:53.difficult, but feasible. International agreement is needed
:36:54. > :36:55.for some of the big challenges like climate change. Without that, isn't
:36:56. > :36:58.it impossible for one country unilaterally to sort itself out if
:36:59. > :37:04.you have not got a global agreement? Of course it is. But people have
:37:05. > :37:08.said over the centuries that we have had a democratic system in this
:37:09. > :37:10.country, this is too difficult, and in the end, a solution is found. You
:37:11. > :37:12.have to use the machinery you have to hand. There are international
:37:13. > :37:14.bodies that can deal with those things, and you have to be
:37:15. > :37:16.well-organised and focused, and communicate in language that people
:37:17. > :37:18.can grasp. Now, how efficient is the civil
:37:19. > :37:21.service and the government 's not very, according to Francis Maude,
:37:22. > :37:24.the minister in charge of making savings across Whitehall and
:37:25. > :37:26.beyond. So what has he done to sort it out? It may not be glamorous
:37:27. > :37:29.work, but behind the scenes, Francis has been busy cutting back on
:37:30. > :37:38.government costs. Some government apartments were spending seven times
:37:39. > :37:52.more than others on printer cartridges. Not these days. Those
:37:53. > :38:03.savings have gone towards the ?5.4 billion cut to the government's Bill
:38:04. > :38:12.for its goods and services. Paper is being shredded to save money. In the
:38:13. > :38:19.last 12 months, ?200 million was clawed back by improving and
:38:20. > :38:26.increasing the government's digital services. And empty government
:38:27. > :38:33.buildings are being sold off as well. Over the last year, the
:38:34. > :38:39.government said 0.6 billion pounds through selling properties and
:38:40. > :38:46.leaving expensive rental contracts. More controversially, there is the
:38:47. > :38:51.ongoing reduction in civil service and. Another ?4.7 billion was saved
:38:52. > :38:53.last year as more jobs were cut. In total, that is ?14.3 billion saved
:38:54. > :39:03.in 2013/14 through efficiency reforms. Mission complete, or will
:39:04. > :39:08."No, Sir Humphrey" continue to be Francis Maude's mantra? Well, we can
:39:09. > :39:17.ask him. Cabinet office minister Francis Maude joins us now. How far
:39:18. > :39:23.through are you with your mission? It will never end. It is always
:39:24. > :39:27.going to be a work in progress. All great organisations expect to make
:39:28. > :39:30.efficiency savings every year, because there will always be new
:39:31. > :39:33.technology and new technique. We have conclusively proved that the
:39:34. > :39:37.old fallacy that said you can't do more for less, a fixed amount of
:39:38. > :39:41.money means a fixed quantum of service, that has gone. We can
:39:42. > :39:43.deliver more for less. Except that there have been some high-profile
:39:44. > :39:45.examples where ministers have blamed civil servants, who say their
:39:46. > :39:47.numbers are being cut. The civil servants help the politicians
:39:48. > :39:51.through complicated policy decisions, like in Duncan Smith and
:39:52. > :39:55.universal credit. -- Iain Duncan Smith. Do you admit that that is in
:39:56. > :39:59.part a result of job cuts? Absolutely not. It is a tribute to
:40:00. > :40:02.the resilience of the civil service that despite the cuts in the
:40:03. > :40:06.numbers, and it is the smallest of service now since the Second World
:40:07. > :40:11.War, the numbers are down 16% now, with more cuts to come, the civil
:40:12. > :40:16.service is delivering more. In the case of West Coast Main Line, it was
:40:17. > :40:21.the cabinet secretary who said this was incompetence which would not be
:40:22. > :40:24.tolerated. But my point is, some departments have seen very sick ever
:40:25. > :40:29.could cuts in their numbers, and ministers say things are working
:40:30. > :40:32.better -- significant cuts. Do the Ministry of Defence said that? They
:40:33. > :40:40.have not seen the same scale of reductions. But actually, in too
:40:41. > :40:43.much of the public sector, there are too many people into many layers who
:40:44. > :40:49.have made things work less effectively. So why have there been
:40:50. > :40:54.so many problems with universal credit? Well, they have been well
:40:55. > :40:58.documented. The Public Accounts Committee was all over that. But
:40:59. > :41:02.that runs counter to your argument that if you strip away the layers,
:41:03. > :41:09.these things will work. No, it doesn't. Where are we with universal
:41:10. > :41:13.credit 's it is making progress and Iain Duncan Smith will report on it
:41:14. > :41:18.in due course. And you are confident that those robins have been ironed
:41:19. > :41:25.out and it will work? -- those problems have been ironed out. There
:41:26. > :41:30.is no doubt that it will work. The behavioural changes that it is
:41:31. > :41:34.designed to deliver our proven. It is not the policy I am questioning,
:41:35. > :41:39.but the roll-out. Are you confident when the report comes out that it
:41:40. > :41:47.will be fine? You will need to wait until the report comes out. What we
:41:48. > :41:50.are doing which has never been done before is that we are reporting
:41:51. > :41:55.transparently on project is. Two weeks ago, the major projects
:41:56. > :41:57.authority published its report on the 200 biggest projects, with a
:41:58. > :42:00.lifetime authority published its report on
:42:01. > :42:05.the 200 biggest projects, with cost of ?400 billion, very openly, saying
:42:06. > :42:15.these ones are red, these ones are green. No government has done that
:42:16. > :42:19.before. That drives improvement. You mentioned those departments that
:42:20. > :42:24.have already had a certain amount of cuts made to their public spending.
:42:25. > :42:28.Some of those departments are not happy about the prospect of further
:42:29. > :42:34.cuts full up they genuinely don't think they can take any more cuts.
:42:35. > :42:38.Do you think it is still justifiable to ring fence certain departments
:42:39. > :42:40.while cutting more drastically from others? We expect efficiency savings
:42:41. > :42:44.whether the budget is ringfenced or not. If you have to combine
:42:45. > :42:49.efficiency savings with other public spending cuts, with health,
:42:50. > :42:54.education and international development ringfenced, it is easier
:42:55. > :42:59.for them than for those departments that are not. It is necessary in all
:43:00. > :43:04.places for us to deliver efficiency savings. The size of the education
:43:05. > :43:13.department will be about half what it was, and it is doing more than it
:43:14. > :43:17.did before. You can deliver more for less, and that is what a long-term
:43:18. > :43:23.economy needs. You need a civil service where taxpayers' money
:43:24. > :43:28.delivers the most that it can. There is more that needs to be done. We
:43:29. > :43:32.mentioned printer cartridges, empty buildings and going digital. To some
:43:33. > :43:36.extent, that is the easy stuff. It is going to get much tougher if you
:43:37. > :43:40.say it has to go on, because it will be about people. It has been about
:43:41. > :43:48.people already, and there is more to be done. You will never get to the
:43:49. > :43:57.end of this. Do you applaud Francis Maude for his mission, savings that
:43:58. > :44:01.Labour failed to make 's eye don't accept the point that this is the
:44:02. > :44:06.first time we have had a check list for red lights and green lights. We
:44:07. > :44:11.had that under Labour. You didn't. We did. But I applaud what Sir
:44:12. > :44:14.Francis Maude has been doing. The other element which he mentioned and
:44:15. > :44:18.acknowledged is the role of the Public Accounts Committee. Margaret
:44:19. > :44:24.Hodge gave an excellent lecture and has put an excellent chapter in this
:44:25. > :44:28.book on precisely the issues you identified. That means they have had
:44:29. > :44:30.a more activist role which has supported public opinion to
:44:31. > :44:37.reinforce the demand for extra efficiency. The suggestion that
:44:38. > :44:40.efficiency is a conservative ambition rather than a Labour
:44:41. > :44:45.ambition is nonsense. I agree about the role of the Public Accounts
:44:46. > :44:49.Committee. The National Audit Office shine and important light on what is
:44:50. > :44:53.going on. Sometimes it is a bit sensationalist, and I could wish
:44:54. > :44:57.that they would occasionally praised the things that were tried that did
:44:58. > :45:04.not work, because that is part of noting innovation. -- promoting
:45:05. > :45:09.innovation. Do you both think that Michael Gove and Theresa May's
:45:10. > :45:14.public row was an advert for good government? Well, governments have
:45:15. > :45:18.arguments. There were plenty in the last government and the one before.
:45:19. > :45:24.It is better if they are not conducted in public.
:45:25. > :45:27.Now it appears the Government's "long term economic plan" is having
:45:28. > :45:29.an adverse effect on the passport office, which has
:45:30. > :45:32.blamed a backlog of applications on the improving economy.
:45:33. > :45:36.The head of the passport office is to be questioned by MPs over long
:45:37. > :45:40.Unions leaders say staff are struggling to cope with
:45:41. > :45:42.a backlong of half a million applications and some people's
:45:43. > :45:48.Well we're joined now from College Green by the Chair of the Home
:45:49. > :46:07.How bad is the problem? It is pretty bad. Individual cases, a man stuck
:46:08. > :46:11.in another country waiting for his children's passports because they
:46:12. > :46:17.have an operation. Another man stranded in Singapore. Over 500
:46:18. > :46:21.complaints made by Members of Parliament. And we are very
:46:22. > :46:28.concerned about what appears to be this huge backlog, given that the
:46:29. > :46:32.passport office last year made a surplus of ?73 million. But they're
:46:33. > :46:39.having to borrow people from the passport fraud section. And this is
:46:40. > :46:47.told to us as if it is some kind of revelation, in order to deal with
:46:48. > :46:57.this problem. Who do you blame, then? Well during the seven months,
:46:58. > :47:03.people do tend to want to go on holiday and therefore find out that
:47:04. > :47:13.their passport needs to be renewed. Is it about bad planning? Of course
:47:14. > :47:18.it is. They talk about service standards in the Home Office and say
:47:19. > :47:22.it is not a backlog because it is within service standards. I think
:47:23. > :47:29.the public expect much better. I do not want to blame anyone today. And
:47:30. > :47:33.we have called in the head of the passport office to hear from him
:47:34. > :47:38.what the situation is like. We should not really have this problem
:47:39. > :47:41.in the UK. It should be something that is done very efficiently. It
:47:42. > :47:46.used to be a good service until recently and we need to make sure
:47:47. > :47:50.that we solve the problems. The closing of offices has of course had
:47:51. > :47:55.an impact and the cutting of staff as well. But we need to try to find
:47:56. > :48:06.out how this backlog has been created and how we bring it to a
:48:07. > :48:15.conclusion. Are you confident that passports will be processed in
:48:16. > :48:20.time? I hope it will be done by Tuesday or the head of the passport
:48:21. > :48:31.office will have some very serious questions to answer. He has got
:48:32. > :48:38.about a week to sort this out! The last time we had a problem was in
:48:39. > :48:42.the late 1980s. Then we went through a lot of reforms and it became very
:48:43. > :48:50.efficient. I'm shocked to hear of these delays. It can only be down to
:48:51. > :48:58.bad planning. I doubt that it is down to staff numbers. It must be
:48:59. > :49:04.bad planning. Do you think it is as simple as that, but they have not
:49:05. > :49:10.prepared for the summer months? I do not have any insight information on
:49:11. > :49:16.this but I do not see how it can be anything else.
:49:17. > :49:18.Regular viewers of the Daily Politics will have clocked
:49:19. > :49:21.that a few of Britain's Political Parties have been experiencing
:49:22. > :49:26.But the trials and tribulations of the Monster Raving Loony Party
:49:27. > :49:27.haven't exactly made national headlines.
:49:28. > :49:45.If you think going into politics is just loony then such is life.
:49:46. > :49:49.Screaming Lord Sutch good belt out a children and developed a brilliant
:49:50. > :49:55.if moderately expensive PR vehicle that actually had a point to it. And
:49:56. > :50:00.it made its mark on the political landscape. The mad Hatter look
:50:01. > :50:05.served him well throughout the history of the official Monster
:50:06. > :50:13.Raving Loony Party disguised some fairly cogent policy is that we now
:50:14. > :50:23.take for granted. We are the only honest loonies. That and butter
:50:24. > :50:30.mountains and ski slopes are daft! But pest -- that passports were
:50:31. > :50:39.actually policies of the Monster Raving Loony Party before they
:50:40. > :50:45.actually came into the legislature. Even when being satirised, the
:50:46. > :50:51.official Monster Raving Loony Party is a registered party, it has
:50:52. > :50:54.conferences and policies. It outlived Screaming Lord Sutch. And
:50:55. > :51:00.like all parties it has a problem with money. It used to be backed by
:51:01. > :51:04.William Hill but they backed out and now they are passing round the hat
:51:05. > :51:11.seeking someone else. If leopard-print lunacy is your bag you
:51:12. > :51:17.should be mad for it. And we're joined now by
:51:18. > :51:19.Alan Howling Laud Hope. And on the Green by Graham Sharpe
:51:20. > :51:30.from William Hill, Welcome to the programme. You have
:51:31. > :51:40.lost your sponsorship, how much trouble is the party in? It is not
:51:41. > :51:50.in dire trouble. It is not the end at all. How much longer can you
:51:51. > :51:57.continue without sponsorship? A long time. William Hill used to provide
:51:58. > :52:05.sponsorship, the whole of the 2010 general election. And we had 28
:52:06. > :52:13.candidates. Have you had any sort of like getting a replacement sponsor?
:52:14. > :52:26.There are a couple of items in the fire. Graham Sharpe has not ruled
:52:27. > :52:33.himself out! Why have you withdrawn sponsorship? Well we supported them
:52:34. > :52:38.for a long time to stop things move on so we are looking elsewhere to
:52:39. > :52:42.sponsor. But I suspect Alan may have been elsewhere this morning because
:52:43. > :52:50.a mystery punter came into one of our branches and had ?400,000 on a
:52:51. > :53:00.no vote in the Scottish referendum. Perhaps that was Alan looking to
:53:01. > :53:08.raise the money! Who are you looking to sponsor? I think given that Alan
:53:09. > :53:13.at the moment tends to enjoy the odd pint of beer, as do many of these
:53:14. > :53:27.members, a brewery with BB odds-on favourite. -- would be. Maybe a few
:53:28. > :53:41.high-profile politicians that shall we say our free at the moment. --
:53:42. > :53:51.are free. Alan and his team-mates are not what we might call spring
:53:52. > :54:00.chickens. Do you think you have failed to move with the times? There
:54:01. > :54:04.is a reason that William Hill have made a decision. It was satirical in
:54:05. > :54:13.the 1980s but your something associated with the past? We do need
:54:14. > :54:25.younger people coming in. And as for the brewery, well this is a winning
:54:26. > :54:29.coalition and it will be on sale at the bar in the Houses of Parliament.
:54:30. > :54:39.So you could be right, it could be a brewery with Mac what about the
:54:40. > :54:46.party, is it all satire? You have had policies that have been adopted.
:54:47. > :54:59.Well when I lived in Devon I was mayor of a town. But my favourite
:55:00. > :55:08.candidate name was Tarquin Finnan Tim biscuit barrel. Will you miss
:55:09. > :55:14.the party if it is not able to put up candidates in the future if money
:55:15. > :55:20.does not come in from somewhere? I am torn. My political answer is yes
:55:21. > :55:28.I would but honestly, no, I wouldn't. I suppose I am rather
:55:29. > :55:37.boring. I have been dismissed by you! But I do think politics is a
:55:38. > :55:44.serious business. We are the party that everyone loves. I think William
:55:45. > :55:55.Hill should go and sponsor UKIP, they are at the other drug party. --
:55:56. > :56:03.joke party. Have you completely ruled out sponsoring the Monster
:56:04. > :56:08.Raving Loony Party? I'm beginning to recapture my affection for the
:56:09. > :56:13.party. Alan is coming under pressure and all things considered it is a
:56:14. > :56:16.good thing that they should be someone who does not take the
:56:17. > :56:22.process entirely seriously stop I think attract people who would not
:56:23. > :56:26.otherwise vote. There are no threat to the big parties and is good to
:56:27. > :56:36.see that democracy is alive and well. Are you going to put your
:56:37. > :56:45.money where your mouth is? We will have to see! All this stuff about
:56:46. > :56:51.UKIP and how badly the Conservative and Labour Party did, the leader of
:56:52. > :56:59.the official Monster Raving Loony Party retained his seat in Hampshire
:57:00. > :57:04.where he lives. Thank you very much for that, both of you.
:57:05. > :57:07.There's just time before we go to find out the winner
:57:08. > :57:11.Remember it was all about the Prime Minister's trip to Sweden to
:57:12. > :57:14.discuss, among other things, who should be the next president
:57:15. > :57:19.And to limber up for his meeting, David Cameron went rowing with some
:57:20. > :57:23.So, Charles, the team have been beavering away to
:57:24. > :57:44.How about you get out and push, David? I like this one. When I said
:57:45. > :57:58.we needed to row back on EU benefits tourism... Which one of us has to go
:57:59. > :58:07.down with the ship? I will leave it there. Another one, gravy train
:58:08. > :58:16.traded in for gravy boat. And rearranging the deck chairs on the
:58:17. > :58:21.EU Titanic. The Swedish minister does look relaxed. The others looked
:58:22. > :58:31.slightly uncomfortable! As if one of them could flip overboard. It is the
:58:32. > :58:41.ultimate photocall. My favourite is, do you know which way you are
:58:42. > :58:43.going? No, neither do I. You will have to tell us your favourite after
:58:44. > :58:48.the show has finished. The one o'clock news is
:58:49. > :58:53.starting over on BBC One now. tomorrow with Prime Ministers
:58:54. > :58:59.Questions and all the big