:00:37. > :00:38.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:42.On the brink of all-out sectarian war.
:00:43. > :00:43.As Iraq slides into chaos, the Foreign Secretary,
:00:44. > :00:50.William Hague reiterates there'll be no British military involvement.
:00:51. > :00:54.The US is said to be talking to its arch enemy Iran over what to do.
:00:55. > :00:58.We'll be asking does the West have a coherent foreign policy any more?
:00:59. > :01:01.The Chinese Premier's in London on a mission to change "misgivings and
:01:02. > :01:08.Nick Clegg's been outlining plans for the Liberal Democrat
:01:09. > :01:13.Will it be worth the paper it's written on?
:01:14. > :01:24.Now his former right-hand man is dishing the dirt.
:01:25. > :01:27.All that in the course of the next hour.
:01:28. > :01:32.Let's begin, though, with the crisis in Iraq.
:01:33. > :01:35.The debate over just how the west should intervene over the situation
:01:36. > :01:38.there is likely to intensify this week as more reports of fierce
:01:39. > :01:45.The militant group Isis appears to have caught the Iraqi government
:01:46. > :01:48.and a number of world leaders off guard, but just who are they and
:01:49. > :01:55.The name ISIS stands for the Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham, which
:01:56. > :02:02.It grew out of al-Qaeda in Iraq and is a Sunni militant group
:02:03. > :02:07.fighting what it regards as an oppressive Shia regime in Baghdad.
:02:08. > :02:11.Led by this man, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the group wants to
:02:12. > :02:16.build a strict Islamic caliphate straddling between Iraq and Syria.
:02:17. > :02:19.Isis already has large areas of both countries under
:02:20. > :02:25.its command, including the key cities of Tikrit, Mosul and Faluja.
:02:26. > :02:27.Their control has given them access to vast amounts of wealth
:02:28. > :02:32.The organisation is notorious for imposing a strict literal
:02:33. > :02:39.Yesterday saw the release of a number
:02:40. > :02:41.of images reportedly showing ISIS fighters executing a group of Iraqi
:02:42. > :02:49.soldiers, although the pictures have yet to be independently verified.
:02:50. > :02:51.Yesterday, the former Prime Minister,
:02:52. > :02:53.Tony Blair, defended Britain's role in the Iraq war arguing that
:02:54. > :03:03.the invasion in 2003 was not the cause of the current crisis.
:03:04. > :03:09.Again, as I've said many times, of course you regret the loss of life
:03:10. > :03:13.and the difficulties we encountered. Did you say to me where I would have
:03:14. > :03:17.preferred a situation where we left Saddam Hussein in 2003 in place,
:03:18. > :03:23.would the region be more stable, my answer to that is unhesitatingly no.
:03:24. > :03:26.However, the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has this morning
:03:27. > :03:28.been highly critical of the former Prime Minister
:03:29. > :03:31.and said the war in 2003 is partly to blame for the current problems.
:03:32. > :03:36.What I'm trying to say is that Britain should be engaged with the
:03:37. > :03:40.world and be positive about the good things we can do, but in order to do
:03:41. > :03:46.that, you've got to be honest and realistic about where it has gone
:03:47. > :03:49.wrong. And it has gone wrong. Andy Payton we opened the way to a lot of
:03:50. > :03:52.sectarian bloodshed -- and it paid to a lot of sectarian bloodshed --
:03:53. > :03:57.and it patented leak went wrong in 2003. And that was not the case
:03:58. > :04:03.before the invasion of Iraq. What would your message to Tony Blair be
:04:04. > :04:07.today? I can understand that he feels very shattered and guilty
:04:08. > :04:13.about the whole thing, but my general message would to be put a
:04:14. > :04:16.sock in it, and paper bag on head time is my advice.
:04:17. > :04:17.Well, earlier I spoke to our Correspondent,
:04:18. > :04:28.I asked him whether the government forces were in a state to push back
:04:29. > :04:34.against ISIS? The Prime Minister has said that they would start fighting
:04:35. > :04:39.back soon. They in a town called Samarra, which is 70 miles north of
:04:40. > :04:45.Baghdad. They are preparing to push forward from there towards Tikrit,
:04:46. > :04:51.and they are mobilising somewhat ominously, large numbers of Shia
:04:52. > :04:54.Muslim volunteers, who are being registered at special centres that
:04:55. > :05:01.have been set up. It looks a little bit like an act of desperation, to
:05:02. > :05:05.rely on civilians wielding pitchforks. It's not quite like
:05:06. > :05:08.that, but it is the image it brings up. They say they can, but there is
:05:09. > :05:15.a lot of doubt, because they fled from Mosul with little resistance
:05:16. > :05:18.and the officer corps is clearly quite poor. A lot of the officers in
:05:19. > :05:22.the old army with years of experience fighting the Iranians and
:05:23. > :05:26.others, they defected because they were Sunni Muslim and were sent home
:05:27. > :05:29.after the Americans dissolve the Iraqi army. They make up the
:05:30. > :05:33.backbone of some of the fighting going on from the rebel side. That
:05:34. > :05:38.is one reason why the Iraqi army has put up such a poor show. What about
:05:39. > :05:44.the international response? We've heard in the last hour or so that
:05:45. > :05:48.the Iranians have rejected the idea of talks with the Americans, but
:05:49. > :05:51.where you are, are you hearing intelligence that the Americans are
:05:52. > :05:56.probably preparing for a bombing campaign? I think it's hanging in
:05:57. > :06:02.the balance. I don't think they want to wade in on one side in a very
:06:03. > :06:06.divided and polarised situation. They are not too happy about the way
:06:07. > :06:12.the Prime Minister has handled things. He is quite close to Iran as
:06:13. > :06:15.well, but the way he alienate it large sectors of Sunni Muslim
:06:16. > :06:19.opinion, they don't want to see -- seem to be wading in on one side.
:06:20. > :06:23.They want to see him or someone else pulled together and national unity
:06:24. > :06:26.government where they could bring the Sunni Muslims on board and drive
:06:27. > :06:31.a wedge between the disgruntled men who joined the campaign against the
:06:32. > :06:36.government, and the extremists of ISIS, the Al-Qaeda related people.
:06:37. > :06:42.That's a hard thing to do, but the Americans don't particularly want to
:06:43. > :06:43.get involved in hostilities on behalf of people in factional
:06:44. > :06:46.situation like this. With me now is the Conservative MP,
:06:47. > :06:50.Rory Stewart, he is the new Chairman In 2003, he served as a Deputy
:06:51. > :06:54.Governor in southern Iraq, appointed We're also joined by
:06:55. > :06:57.Sir Menzies Campbell, the former Lib Dem leader, and by the
:06:58. > :07:09.journalist John Rentoul who writes John, first of all, referring back
:07:10. > :07:14.to Tony Blair and Boris Johnson. Who is right in terms of how much the
:07:15. > :07:21.2003 invasion has to answer for what is going on now? Obviously the 2003
:07:22. > :07:24.invasion had a bearing on what is happening now, but you could equally
:07:25. > :07:29.say that the failure to intervene in Syria was responsible for ISIS
:07:30. > :07:37.coming over from Syria, which is where they got their trained men and
:07:38. > :07:42.materials and the weapons from. I thought Boris Johnson was
:07:43. > :07:46.unnecessary in using the language of mental health to dismiss Tony
:07:47. > :07:49.Blair's contribution. If you look at what Boris Johnson was saying should
:07:50. > :07:54.be done, it was pretty much the same as what Tony Blair says. Let's
:07:55. > :07:58.discuss what we should do now rather than what happened 11 years ago. Is
:07:59. > :08:02.it time to stop going over the recriminations of whether we should
:08:03. > :08:07.or should not have gone into Iraq, bearing in mind this is a threat
:08:08. > :08:12.happening right now? The Chilcot Inquiry still has to come, and that
:08:13. > :08:19.is bound to renew the debate, but to some extent I agree with John. It is
:08:20. > :08:24.facile to say that the invasion of 2003 had no influence on today's
:08:25. > :08:27.events, but it's equally facile to say that without it to say that
:08:28. > :08:33.without it the place. The truth is, it's a complex situation, made
:08:34. > :08:37.complicated further by Syria and by the fact, as we heard earlier, that
:08:38. > :08:44.the government has been pretty inept. My hope is that both the
:08:45. > :08:50.United States and Iran, inspired of what has been publicly said, -- in
:08:51. > :08:54.spite of what has been publicly said, realise they have a common
:08:55. > :08:57.interest in ensuring the integrity of Iraq is protected, as indeed do
:08:58. > :09:05.all this. Because further instability in the Middle East, for
:09:06. > :09:11.a no go area of everyone, except terrorism, which extended from the
:09:12. > :09:17.northern part of Iraq into Syria would be an enormously helpful thing
:09:18. > :09:20.for them in the prosecution of their barbaric way of life. That is why it
:09:21. > :09:22.is so important that we have barbaric way of life. That is why it
:09:23. > :09:26.is so important that action which has the effect of maintaining the
:09:27. > :09:32.sovereign Iraqi government. We will come back to the action that can be
:09:33. > :09:35.taken, but let's go to the Syria intervention that never actually
:09:36. > :09:42.occurred. Do you think that has been critical in allowing the space for
:09:43. > :09:46.ISIS jihadist 's to create a power base not only in Syria, but also
:09:47. > :09:51.take advantage, as many critics have claimed, of the Prime Minister's
:09:52. > :09:57.relentless Shia Muslim agenda, to do what they are doing now? I think
:09:58. > :10:00.that's undoubtedly the case. I'm not an expert on Syria. In Syria, we
:10:01. > :10:06.would have had to intervene much earlier than ever suggested
:10:07. > :10:08.would have had to intervene much anybody to produce some kind of
:10:09. > :10:15.decent outcome. Actually, all that was proposed last August was a
:10:16. > :10:19.punitive strike was to persuade Bashar al-Assad to not use chemical
:10:20. > :10:22.weapons. It had gone ahead, I think it might have been worthwhile, but
:10:23. > :10:30.don't think it would have stopped the Civil War in Syria ISIS coming
:10:31. > :10:37.into Iraq. -- or ISIS coming in. Has he pursued this Shia Muslim-led
:10:38. > :10:43.agenda, the prime Minister? He is a man of the West, and that was the
:10:44. > :10:52.mistake. There was an election. It's interesting what Jim Weir -- Jim
:10:53. > :10:56.Muir said earlier, that there should be a government led by somebody more
:10:57. > :11:00.temperate in their views. But what was proposed last September was to
:11:01. > :11:04.bomb Bashar al-Assad. That would not have weakened these people, and it
:11:05. > :11:07.might have strengthened them. That could have been a recruiting
:11:08. > :11:12.sergeant for them. But if we come back to who should be running Iraq,
:11:13. > :11:18.the West does have themselves to blame in terms of pulling out too
:11:19. > :11:24.early, allowing Nouri Al Malachy to pursue the agenda with tacit support
:11:25. > :11:29.from people on the ground. I was in the United States last week and I
:11:30. > :11:33.saw people say it was Barack Obama's polled for pulling out, but
:11:34. > :11:39.the Prime Minister of Iraq did not want to say -- Barack Obama's fault.
:11:40. > :11:46.It has turned into the Americans and Republicans against each other. It's
:11:47. > :11:53.a bit like the argument of whether the invasion of 2003 caused this. It
:11:54. > :11:57.is not the sole cause. What that requires now is a common approach by
:11:58. > :12:01.people who have influence, and the truth is, the UK does not have
:12:02. > :12:05.influence. We are entirely subordinate to the US in this. We
:12:06. > :12:09.can give them some technical assistance, the much admired special
:12:10. > :12:13.forces might be engaged in some activity, but the truth of the
:12:14. > :12:16.matter is, the solution to this lies in Washington and at the desk of
:12:17. > :12:22.Barack Obama which might explain why he's making -- taking so long to
:12:23. > :12:27.make up his mind. Do you agree that we can and we often shouldn't do
:12:28. > :12:31.anything? I don't know. We should listen to people like Tony Blair who
:12:32. > :12:34.have experience and have thought about it, instead of insulting him
:12:35. > :12:41.by calling him mad or rate war criminal. I love and respect Menzies
:12:42. > :12:44.Campbell. He opposes war in a constructive and measured language,
:12:45. > :12:48.which is the sort of thing we should have in this debate. But if you're
:12:49. > :12:55.listening to somebody like Tony Blair who has, in many quarters been
:12:56. > :12:59.vilified for 2003, and calling for more intervention, which is his only
:13:00. > :13:05.line, to go into Syria and then into Iraq, you can't say it was a
:13:06. > :13:10.resounding success, so why would you listen to Tony Blair? Because he has
:13:11. > :13:14.actually thought about it and he has important things to say. Boris
:13:15. > :13:17.Johnson, who calls him mad, proposes the same thing and says we should
:13:18. > :13:27.help the Prime Minister as much as possible. Would you listen to Tony
:13:28. > :13:31.Blair and his suggestions? I did have do for quite awhile on some
:13:32. > :13:35.television channels. I thought it was long on analysis and short
:13:36. > :13:39.solution. Much of what he said I was agreeable to, but then he said in
:13:40. > :13:44.general terms something has to be done. But if you leave the gap but
:13:45. > :13:49.something has to be done, in the mind of somebody like me, the
:13:50. > :13:53.something to be done, the thing that comes to mind is military
:13:54. > :13:57.intervention. Philip Hammond just ruled that out in the last hour.
:13:58. > :14:01.William Hague ruled it out this morning on the Today programme, and
:14:02. > :14:04.there is a statement in the House of Commons where it will be ruled out
:14:05. > :14:09.again. The fact is, the US will look to us for the assistance we can
:14:10. > :14:15.provide which does not involve boots on the ground. As our closest ally,
:14:16. > :14:19.we will be under pressure to assist. How long can we allow the vacuum to
:14:20. > :14:23.continue? It Barack Obama does not come up with some sort of coherent
:14:24. > :14:30.plan, do we sit here and wait for direction from Washington? What else
:14:31. > :14:35.can we do best we can't go in on our own. We don't have the Armed Forces
:14:36. > :14:42.that we had in 2003 -- what else can we do? We cannot go in on our own. I
:14:43. > :14:45.hope that they will consider that there is a possibility of some kind
:14:46. > :14:51.of agreement with the Iranians. You can't want to leap into bed with the
:14:52. > :14:54.great Satan, as they describe the US, without some sort of
:14:55. > :14:59.explanation. So far there is no obvious explanation. But remember
:15:00. > :15:02.that back channels are as important in diplomatic exchanges as what is
:15:03. > :15:08.said in front of the TV cameras. What about Iran and Saudi Arabia? If
:15:09. > :15:13.you're looking at the big sponsors Shia and Sunni Muslims, is that the
:15:14. > :15:19.way to go and what can Britain do? I'm not the expert. People like
:15:20. > :15:27.Menzies Campbell and Tony Blair have views on this and we should listen.
:15:28. > :15:31.But we should also accept, as Sir Menzies does, that this is
:15:32. > :15:34.America's problem. We can't act on our own. All the debate in this
:15:35. > :15:40.country is focused entirely on it Tony Blair do this, did he get it
:15:41. > :15:45.wrong? It was in his war, it was George Bush's war. He had to support
:15:46. > :15:57.it or not. If we could perhaps reduce the level of debate somewhat.
:15:58. > :16:08.We are where we are, and it is quite right to identify it ran Sidey
:16:09. > :16:13.Arabia. Both of them in their own ways would have their interests
:16:14. > :16:18.materially registered by terrorism, so looking from outside, there is
:16:19. > :16:27.compulsion. But this dispute goes back to the seventh century, so it
:16:28. > :16:35.is difficult to persuade people to accept the situation. We are looking
:16:36. > :16:48.to something approaching partition and a change of boundaries. And we
:16:49. > :16:51.have not yet mentioned the Kurds. We could be looking at dividing the
:16:52. > :16:56.region into three, which would be very unstable, and against our
:16:57. > :17:02.interests. I apologise for Rory Stewart. We thought he was coming.
:17:03. > :17:11.Maybe he is still in the building. Thank you, gentlemen.
:17:12. > :17:13.It's three months to go until the Scottish independence
:17:14. > :17:16.referendum and both campaigns are holding events in Edinburgh today.
:17:17. > :17:18.In a speech this morning Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is
:17:19. > :17:21.laying out the Scottish government's plans for a draft constitution
:17:22. > :17:24.And then later this afternoon, the leaders of the Scottish Tories,
:17:25. > :17:26.Labour and Liberal Democrats are releasing
:17:27. > :17:29.their plans for further devolution in the event of a no vote.
:17:30. > :17:32.I can speak now to Patrick Harvie, the leader of the Scottish Green
:17:33. > :17:34.party - and supporter of independence - who's in Glasgow.
:17:35. > :17:45.Welcome to the programme. What would be in this draft interim
:17:46. > :17:49.constitution? The Scottish government has published today
:17:50. > :17:57.consultation and a draft interim is gone -- constitution. There is a
:17:58. > :18:01.strong thread of social justice in there. It is not intended to be the
:18:02. > :18:07.permanent constitution, which would be developed afterwards. It is
:18:08. > :18:10.important to keep the momentum and keeping gauge meant all the way
:18:11. > :18:17.through from the referendum to transition. But there is a strong
:18:18. > :18:21.element of social justice on issues like human rights, equality,
:18:22. > :18:26.disarmament, many of the powerful issues which are motivating people
:18:27. > :18:33.to vote yes in the referendum. Wider Scotland need a written
:18:34. > :18:39.constitution? It is an important symbol of the modern country we are
:18:40. > :18:42.trying to build. The idea of a comprehensive written constitution
:18:43. > :18:47.that everyone can read and understand is necessary to hold
:18:48. > :18:50.Government accountable. Britain does have hundreds of years of
:18:51. > :18:57.constitutional documentation, but you need to be a lawyer to
:18:58. > :19:03.understand any of it. Constitution is important for the citizens of the
:19:04. > :19:07.country to power accountable. You said it is draft, interim, there
:19:08. > :19:11.will obviously be discussions. But you want an independent Scotland to
:19:12. > :19:18.be nuclear weapons free, enshrined in law. So it means a nuclear
:19:19. > :19:26.deterrent would not be able to be used as a bargaining chip. I
:19:27. > :19:29.wouldn't want it to be. I would want a very clear statement that says we
:19:30. > :19:34.get rid of nuclear were and as quickly as Austevoll. I am not
:19:35. > :19:40.consulting on this, I am in an opposition party. I am on the yes
:19:41. > :19:43.side of the referendum debate, but I will be responding to this
:19:44. > :19:48.consultation just as everybody else is, and I will have ideas on how it
:19:49. > :19:51.might be improved, for example ensuring the natural resources, the
:19:52. > :19:56.land of Scotland, is held in the common good. There are important
:19:57. > :20:00.principles about the ownership of Scotland which need to be addressed
:20:01. > :20:06.if we are to close the gap that we were rich and poor. The Herald
:20:07. > :20:11.reports that an independent Scotland would borrow billions of pounds, so
:20:12. > :20:15.to close that gap you are talking about, are you prepared to do that?
:20:16. > :20:17.Would you support a Government that would borrow billions of pounds to
:20:18. > :20:29.support the gap at wing Richard Poor? What John Swinney has said is
:20:30. > :20:39.that he would favour a stimulus approach, are wing to invest. --
:20:40. > :20:43.borrowing to invest. That could be achieved partly through are wing,
:20:44. > :20:55.but the emphasis needs to be on taxation as well. But I certainly
:20:56. > :20:58.welcome the idea of an end to the austerity agenda. Thank you very
:20:59. > :21:01.much. And joining me from our Edinburgh
:21:02. > :21:11.studio is the leader of the Scottish The three prounion parties in
:21:12. > :21:25.Scotland supports devolution but have different plans. What is
:21:26. > :21:31.important is that the SMP and others would like to see more powers. This
:21:32. > :21:41.is a choice between two different visions of Scotland, one a separate
:21:42. > :21:48.independent country, and one a strong Scotland within a strong
:21:49. > :21:57.United Kingdom. Can you give any specifics as to the powers Hollywood
:21:58. > :22:01.will get? We will be working our way through this. It is about fiscal
:22:02. > :22:06.accountability, taxation, a more coherent welfare system and looking
:22:07. > :22:13.at how you decentralise power is out of the Scottish Parliament. The
:22:14. > :22:21.issue here is looking about what works best. We know that for the
:22:22. > :22:28.SNP, no powers will ever be enough, but we want to ensure we strike a
:22:29. > :22:36.balance between a strong Scottish Parliament and the best of both
:22:37. > :22:40.worlds. So why won't labour for the Scottish Parliament full income
:22:41. > :22:43.tax-raising powers? One of the benefits of being in the United
:22:44. > :22:55.Kingdom is we are able to share and resources. So we want to make sure
:22:56. > :23:02.that we get the balance right, because for too long, Scottish
:23:03. > :23:06.Parliaments have had no accountability for raising money,
:23:07. > :23:10.and we want to strike that balance. You say you want clear-cut plans
:23:11. > :23:12.from the other side, but your campaign to some extent has been
:23:13. > :23:17.about knocking their plans down rather than producing your own
:23:18. > :23:26.positive narrative about what would be on offer. I don't accept that is
:23:27. > :23:29.true. Scotland is strong enough and confident enough to work with
:23:30. > :23:40.neighbours across the whole of the United Kingdom. We cannot say that
:23:41. > :23:46.all our ills have been as a result of being done down by the rest of
:23:47. > :23:53.the United Kingdom and me -- we must separate off. We don't need to be
:23:54. > :23:57.separated to be able to stand strong and tall within the United Kingdom.
:23:58. > :24:00.China's prime minister, Li Keqiang, arrives in the UK today for a
:24:01. > :24:02.three-day visit before jetting off to those other well-known economic
:24:03. > :24:06.Mr Keqiang says he wants to "present the real China so as to
:24:07. > :24:10.The Government however will be less concerned with perceptions
:24:11. > :24:15.They're hoping to secure some serious Chinese investment.
:24:16. > :24:17.Our reporter Eleanor Garnier has been taking a look
:24:18. > :24:37.London's Chinatown, but the Chinese premier will be too busy taking tea
:24:38. > :24:41.with the Queen to put a visiting here. In search of a little luck, I
:24:42. > :24:48.went along to find some Chinese words of wisdom. Everything will now
:24:49. > :24:51.come your way? And troubled economies are trying their luck,
:24:52. > :24:56.too, looking to Chinese investments to help turn their fortunes around.
:24:57. > :25:01.Whether it is paying hundreds of millions for a 10% stake at
:25:02. > :25:04.Heathrow, spending billions building railway in East Africa or pouring
:25:05. > :25:11.millions into upgrading a Greek port, all around the world, China is
:25:12. > :25:16.investing, and fast. China above all is investing in the developing
:25:17. > :25:22.world. It's now accounts for more lending to the developing world than
:25:23. > :25:29.the World Bank. It is focused in particular on East Asia and also
:25:30. > :25:35.Africa. It invests mainly in commodities, but increasingly also
:25:36. > :25:41.in manufacturing and capacity. And also in other significant areas of
:25:42. > :25:46.investment, in Latin America. But it is not just investment in
:25:47. > :25:56.infrastructure and energy. Wealthy Chinese people are being cleared to
:25:57. > :26:06.leave -- are coming to Europe in return for investing is little as
:26:07. > :26:10.500,000 euros. Remember this? David Cameron's visit to China last year.
:26:11. > :26:14.It went some way to warming up the diplomatic relationship between the
:26:15. > :26:19.two countries after things had got a little frosty because of the PM's
:26:20. > :26:28.meeting with the Dalai llama. And on this return visit, one expert told
:26:29. > :26:32.me that he will be careful to be seen to be calling the shots. When
:26:33. > :26:41.the British premier visited China, they welcomed it quite understated,
:26:42. > :26:45.the way the government would like it to be. When the Chinese premier
:26:46. > :26:47.visits the UK, the Chinese government would
:26:48. > :26:51.visits the UK, the Chinese is a much more positive development,
:26:52. > :26:56.so I think the Chinese media will also projected as a much more
:26:57. > :27:11.positive and successful event. I'd like China's got plenty of dough,
:27:12. > :27:14.and the UK needs it. Expect lots of wooing as the UK competes with many
:27:15. > :27:17.others after China's good fortune. Joining me now is the Business
:27:18. > :27:27.Minister Michael Fallon and the What will success look like for you
:27:28. > :27:32.on this trip? Continuing to strengthen the trading relationship
:27:33. > :27:42.we have with China. It is a very important business partner for us.
:27:43. > :27:46.Exports are up 15% last year. It is very important for us to make this a
:27:47. > :27:53.full two-way relationship with a valued partner. They invest in us in
:27:54. > :28:00.infrastructure, in oil and gas, but we also invest there. Are we reliant
:28:01. > :28:08.on the Chinese for British infrastructure investment? Not at
:28:09. > :28:14.all. This year, Siemens are investing, and Japanese companies
:28:15. > :28:19.are investing in our cars. We welcome the Chinese investment, they
:28:20. > :28:28.are a big part of it. It is a big part of EDF, the French company, and
:28:29. > :28:33.its plans to build a nuclear reactor in Somerset. But do we need to
:28:34. > :28:39.ignore human rights questions to make this a priority? China is a
:28:40. > :28:44.valued trade partner. We have a human rights dialogue with China.
:28:45. > :28:49.The Prime Minister will obviously continue to raise human rights and
:28:50. > :28:52.human rights cases. There are important issues coming up like the
:28:53. > :28:56.election for the chief executive of Hong Kong. But we should allow these
:28:57. > :28:59.issues to get in the way of a very old and deepening trade
:29:00. > :29:07.relationship. Do you agree with that? Would you risk upsetting the
:29:08. > :29:14.Chinese by raising human rights? Not at all. This relationship does come
:29:15. > :29:17.with responsibilities. It is right for the prime Minister to be raising
:29:18. > :29:20.the concerns that UK nationals have about investment in the UK, and
:29:21. > :29:24.making sure that that in estimate comes with significant
:29:25. > :29:29.responsibilities about human rights issues. Hopefully the premiere of
:29:30. > :29:35.China will take those issues on board. Do you think he actually
:29:36. > :29:39.will? It is important that he does. If China is going to be a world
:29:40. > :29:43.player, it needs to play in the world environment in the proper way,
:29:44. > :29:47.and that is a significant responsibility. And Michael Fallon,
:29:48. > :29:51.if they don't take on these concerns, will you stop or at least
:29:52. > :29:58.restrict the two-way trade investment? These are not opposites.
:29:59. > :29:59.These are things we do with a mature trading partner. We raise these
:30:00. > :30:38.issues is the oldest and most important
:30:39. > :30:43.ally in that respect. But you said you wanted to view it as we do the
:30:44. > :30:47.relationship with the US? It is getting to that scale. There is big
:30:48. > :30:52.investment on both sides. China is an important trading partner for us.
:30:53. > :30:55.We are not part of a security alliance with China, so there are
:30:56. > :30:58.differences, but we want China to play a full role in the
:30:59. > :31:02.international community. They have been extremely helpful in dealing
:31:03. > :31:06.with issues with North Korea, for example, and it's important that the
:31:07. > :31:10.relationship is deepened and it is not just trade. In government, will
:31:11. > :31:14.you do anything different here? There is a problem here, because the
:31:15. > :31:19.office of budget responsibility said the trade gap is widening and it is
:31:20. > :31:24.a drag on growth. We are relying on housing bubble that spin
:31:25. > :31:29.artificially made, so we have to get exports. We have a target of ?1
:31:30. > :31:33.trillion exports by 2020, and that just won't happen with the current
:31:34. > :31:36.rate. They are an incredibly important market for trade to
:31:37. > :31:40.rebalance the UK economy. So you would not do anything different? You
:31:41. > :31:43.have laid at the reasons we are in this situation, but you wouldn't do
:31:44. > :31:48.anything different with regard to China? We want to have Chinese
:31:49. > :31:52.people coming here. The Visa problems are a significant issue. We
:31:53. > :31:57.need the cat connectivity -- the connectivity with China. We also
:31:58. > :32:01.need to have the export guarantee schemes announced two years ago,
:32:02. > :32:06.?5.5 billion of UK taxpayer cash, and not one business has applied for
:32:07. > :32:11.it. We need businesses exporting to rebalance the economy. Do you accept
:32:12. > :32:16.that government restrictions on immigration have harmed relations,
:32:17. > :32:21.because the Chinese have repeatedly said that they have stopped Chinese
:32:22. > :32:23.people coming over here, whether it is students or business people
:32:24. > :32:31.question the last Labour government did nothing about Chinese trade. In
:32:32. > :32:35.terms of visas, there are 90,000 Chinese students in this country. We
:32:36. > :32:40.have more Visa centres in China than any other country in terms of
:32:41. > :32:46.processing applications. 96% of people in China applying for a Visa
:32:47. > :32:51.get one. Well why has Downing Street just put out something that they
:32:52. > :32:56.will ease restrictions to Chinese visitors, so that means they've been
:32:57. > :33:01.restricted. We want to make it easier, so that is why we opened
:33:02. > :33:03.more centres and it easier for companies to get visas for the
:33:04. > :33:07.people they want to bring in. You can always improve these things.
:33:08. > :33:11.There is a significant contradiction there. While we welcome Chinese
:33:12. > :33:14.investment in the UK and we need to increase exports, we are turning our
:33:15. > :33:20.back on the EU and they are our biggest exporting market. So we have
:33:21. > :33:24.the government saying we need as much Chinese investment and
:33:25. > :33:28.exporting as we can get, but we will risk the relationship with the EU
:33:29. > :33:31.for political propaganda purposes. We are reforming our relationship
:33:32. > :33:35.with the EU, as the Chinese understand that, just as the
:33:36. > :33:38.Japanese and Americans do. We want to make it competitive, less
:33:39. > :33:42.bureaucratic, less harmonising and we want to focus on the things that
:33:43. > :33:45.really matter. They understand that perfectly well. One of the reasons
:33:46. > :33:50.the Chinese invest here is because we are full members of the EU. How
:33:51. > :33:56.would they feel if Britain left the EU in 2017? Like the Japanese and
:33:57. > :34:00.Americans I'm sure they want us to stay in the EU, but they understand
:34:01. > :34:03.that Europe has to reform. And so do the other member states of Europe.
:34:04. > :34:08.They understand that Europe needs to reform and they see the way now
:34:09. > :34:13.through the free trade deals to an expansion of growth across small
:34:14. > :34:17.trade, and China and Britain's trade relationship is a part of that. This
:34:18. > :34:22.is an area of growing trade that creates jobs both here and in China.
:34:23. > :34:26.And the EU free-trade deals are fundamental to the relationship with
:34:27. > :34:29.China and the rest of the world. The Japanese, the Americans and the
:34:30. > :34:32.Chinese want us to stay in the EU but our own Prime Minister is
:34:33. > :34:39.unclear if he wants to stay in the EU. The CBI have said this and the
:34:40. > :34:44.EU, it is critical to the UK economy for them to stay in the reformed EU
:34:45. > :34:48.system with reform. It's a busy start to the week, along
:34:49. > :34:52.with the Chinese premier arriving in the UK and an interim constitution
:34:53. > :34:54.arriving in Scotland, the public sector union, Unison, has arrived in
:34:55. > :34:57.Brighton for their week long annual conference, where they're expected
:34:58. > :34:59.to debate strike actions And a new law comes
:35:00. > :35:04.into effect making forced marriage a criminal offence in England
:35:05. > :35:06.and Wales, punishable with up to Tomorrow,
:35:07. > :35:12.DEFRA publishes its report on Winter Floods, setting out what needs to be
:35:13. > :35:18.learned from last winter's crisis. And the government serves up
:35:19. > :35:21.its freshly prepared Food School Plan, aimed at improving both
:35:22. > :35:26.school dinners and food education. And on Wednesday,
:35:27. > :35:29.the Bank of England appoints former White House economic hotshot
:35:30. > :35:48.Professor Kristin Forbes to Welcome to Jim and Isabel. Isabel,
:35:49. > :35:54.what has been the response of Westminster to Tony Blair's comments
:35:55. > :35:57.and Boris Johnson's response? I think there are people on both sides
:35:58. > :36:01.of the debate of intervention who agree with Boris Johnson, and they
:36:02. > :36:05.wish that Tony had Blair did keep quiet when these matters, because he
:36:06. > :36:09.does poison the debate about intervention -- Tony Blair. Just as
:36:10. > :36:14.he did about the debate in Syria. He tends to bring this back to events
:36:15. > :36:17.in 2003, but we are talking about what is happening in Iraq now rather
:36:18. > :36:22.than digging through the lessons of history. In terms of the government
:36:23. > :36:25.response, Jim, it's clear there won't be any deployment of boots on
:36:26. > :36:31.the ground. There are no soldiers going over. What can Britain do
:36:32. > :36:36.except, as my guests earlier said, wait for America and Washington to
:36:37. > :36:39.decide? That was what Nick Clegg was saying at his press Conference, that
:36:40. > :36:44.he will provide support to America and Britain was provided
:36:45. > :36:46.intelligence -- will provide intelligence. There is the
:36:47. > :36:51.possibility of special forces going in but I doubt we will hear
:36:52. > :36:58.confirmation of that. Let's move onto special advisers, and I see you
:36:59. > :37:00.laughing, Isabel, and the special adviser to Michael Gove. His
:37:01. > :37:05.comments were strong. Does this leave Michael Gove in a difficult
:37:06. > :37:09.situation? I don't think Michael Gove is ever in a difficult
:37:10. > :37:12.situation. People say it might be awkward during education questions,
:37:13. > :37:17.but normally Labour thunder ratting across the Commons and the response
:37:18. > :37:22.with ornate words that means he avoids answering the question, and I
:37:23. > :37:26.suspect he will do it today. Jim, is it for time Dominic Cummings to bow
:37:27. > :37:30.out of the public debate? I'm not sure anyone can can control him. He
:37:31. > :37:33.seems to be having so much fun with this, briefing against everyone and
:37:34. > :37:39.not caring what anyone thinks. You could see how riled Nick Clegg was
:37:40. > :37:42.this morning, saying that he had deep issues with anger, and people
:37:43. > :37:47.like these get above their station when they get within a sniff of
:37:48. > :37:53.power. I think this one will run. And the reaction from ten Downing
:37:54. > :37:56.St? He has been unhelpful to number ten. Their responses that David
:37:57. > :38:01.Cameron has faith and trust in all his advisers, because Dominic
:38:02. > :38:06.Cummings criticised the operation in number ten, but the criticism also
:38:07. > :38:10.went to David Cameron's wrap dashboard for Michael Gove's
:38:11. > :38:11.reforms, which suggests that the Prime Minister is not committed to
:38:12. > :38:22.the Ed Miliband has been getting
:38:23. > :38:25.themselves along with others about the photo shoot for the World Cup.
:38:26. > :38:30.Were they right to apologise or should they have stood their ground?
:38:31. > :38:33.We are into another phase where posing with a newspaper that read by
:38:34. > :38:42.more than anybody a country demands a republic -- an apology from the
:38:43. > :38:44.prime minister. When he telephoned labour Liverpool politicians, they
:38:45. > :38:49.were furious. He said he did not know how he could go out on the
:38:50. > :38:52.doorstep and tell to vote for Ed Miliband as prime minister given
:38:53. > :38:54.that he had posed with the Sun newspaper. An almost impossible line
:38:55. > :39:02.to tread Vura Labour leader given how much -- for a Labour leader,
:39:03. > :39:07.given how much the Labour base is mistrustful of the sun. Do you think
:39:08. > :39:10.the people around Ed Miliband made a mistake and setting it up in the
:39:11. > :39:15.first place or agreeing in the first place? There was a mistake and that
:39:16. > :39:18.there wasn't a strategy. If he had decided to pose with the Sun
:39:19. > :39:22.newspaper, he should have thought ahead and thought about the problems
:39:23. > :39:26.it might cause for some groups. The Liverpool Labour MPs did not know
:39:27. > :39:31.about the photo until it emerged on Twitter, and that is one reason why
:39:32. > :39:35.they were upset. This is the problem with the team, they don't have that
:39:36. > :39:39.kind of strategic thinking. There's lots of different people all doing
:39:40. > :39:44.slightly different things. What about Ed Miliband himself? Should he
:39:45. > :39:46.have seen it coming? He doesn't seem to have been calculating about this
:39:47. > :39:51.and in the end he's upset everyone. He then apologised for posing the
:39:52. > :39:55.newspaper, and then they wrote an aggressive leading article next day.
:39:56. > :39:59.So he has annoyed everyone. That was very successful of them. Jim,
:40:00. > :40:02.looking briefly manifestoes, because the Liberal Democrats have been
:40:03. > :40:07.talking about theirs. Will anybody ever take any notice of what is
:40:08. > :40:11.written in them again? Even Nick Clegg said it wasn't even worth
:40:12. > :40:14.putting together a coalition manifesto any more, because we don't
:40:15. > :40:18.know what it will be until after the result. Basically the tone this
:40:19. > :40:22.morning was, you elect the MPs you want, and we will sort out what
:40:23. > :40:27.policies the government will deliver the next five years. I just don't
:40:28. > :40:31.really see. No one is really too hopeful of a majority on either
:40:32. > :40:34.side. Maybe they are not really worth the paper they are written
:40:35. > :40:36.on. Jim, Isabel, thank you very much.
:40:37. > :40:39.And with us for the rest of the programme is the Treasury Minister
:40:40. > :40:42.and Conservative MP, Andrea Leadsom, Labour's Meg Hillier, and from the
:40:43. > :40:45.Now let's talk about the Liberal Democrats, because
:40:46. > :40:48.Nick Clegg has been outlining the party's pitch to voters
:40:49. > :40:52.This is what he had to say at his press conference earlier
:40:53. > :41:05.This will be an independent, Liberal Democrat manifesto from an
:41:06. > :41:08.independent Liberal party. It will not be written with an eye to what
:41:09. > :41:14.Labour or the Conservatives think or might sign up to. It will be written
:41:15. > :41:19.with an eye for what Britain needs. It will be written as an answer to
:41:20. > :41:23.one simple question. How can we build opportunity for all? Cars, for
:41:24. > :41:28.liberals, no matter what your background, your race -- because,
:41:29. > :41:32.for liberals, no matter what your background, your race, your colour,
:41:33. > :41:38.your sexuality, we believe in you. We don't write anybody. Britain must
:41:39. > :41:42.move from austerity to ambition and think about how a restored economy
:41:43. > :41:47.should function. Just very recently the Chief Secretary to the Treasury,
:41:48. > :41:53.Danny Alexander, a positive growth force from the IMF said they should
:41:54. > :41:58.not review their austerity policies -- policies. So which is it? We have
:41:59. > :42:01.managed to do the hard job of turning the economy round in the
:42:02. > :42:05.last four years, but we have to make sure we do it in a way that makes it
:42:06. > :42:12.fairer for all parts of society. Right behind Nick Clegg it had
:42:13. > :42:15.stronger economy, fair society. The bit that comes after that is
:42:16. > :42:20.enabling everybody did get on in life, and that's the important part
:42:21. > :42:24.we need to deliver. Because you failed to deliver it in coalition
:42:25. > :42:30.over four years? Absolutely not. If you look at the people premium. That
:42:31. > :42:34.will be ?2.5 billion that will make sure the most disadvantaged children
:42:35. > :42:38.in society are given help to ensure that they keep up with their peers.
:42:39. > :42:42.That is making sure that we are creating a fair society and helping
:42:43. > :42:48.them get on in life. There is much more to do. The indication is the
:42:49. > :42:52.austerity has achieved what the government set out to do, so you
:42:53. > :42:56.have got rid of the deficit and debt is falling as a proportion of GDP.
:42:57. > :43:00.These are things that were promised by George Osborne, and the
:43:01. > :43:03.timetables have been missed. So you have not finished the austerity
:43:04. > :43:08.project, and if you leave the austerity policies behind, you will
:43:09. > :43:11.end up in another financial mess? Austerity in itself does not mean we
:43:12. > :43:17.should not have ambition for those people in society who we can help to
:43:18. > :43:22.get on. So austerity will continue, won't it? It has to, because the
:43:23. > :43:26.finances were in such a poor state. But Nick Clegg said they would move
:43:27. > :43:34.from austerity to ambition, but the Liberal Democrats said out of the
:43:35. > :43:38.rubble of the 2008 crash we must build a new economy. We can no
:43:39. > :43:41.longer accept a society of inequality in opportunity. We cannot
:43:42. > :43:45.mortgage the future of our children by ignoring the threat of climate
:43:46. > :43:48.change. It sounds like a man who's not been in government for the last
:43:49. > :43:53.four years. Not at all. There were difficult decisions are made, and we
:43:54. > :43:56.made them. There will be more difficult decisions in the next
:43:57. > :43:59.parliament, but it doesn't mean we can't have an eye on the future and
:44:00. > :44:02.making sure we are creating a society that will help the poorest
:44:03. > :44:09.and the most disadvantage and help to get them a foot on the ladder so
:44:10. > :44:14.they can catch up with their peers. In the past, they have been
:44:15. > :44:20.forgotten about. What about a red lines. What would be red line are
:44:21. > :44:24.you? Would it be a mansion tax? I'm not going to talk about red lines.
:44:25. > :44:29.You are putting together a manifesto, so there must be some,
:44:30. > :44:34.surely? We will wait to see what the electorate says. So who is the
:44:35. > :44:41.largest party. Depending on where we negotiate depends on who we get.
:44:42. > :44:44.Let's not concentration -- let's not concentrate on negotiation. What
:44:45. > :44:47.Nick has done today set out a vision of what the Liberal Democrats want
:44:48. > :44:50.to achieve in the next Parliament. It's up to the other parties to do
:44:51. > :44:54.the same, then we will have each put our vision in front of the
:44:55. > :44:58.electorate of the UK, and it's up to the people to decide what they want
:44:59. > :45:00.to achieve in the next Parliament. We each have to sell a positive
:45:01. > :45:04.vision for what we want to achieve. Well, all the parties are
:45:05. > :45:05.deliberating and cogitating But how important is it to get
:45:06. > :45:10.your manifesto pitch spot-on? And this time round,
:45:11. > :45:41.might the parties consider playing Anyone who needs to ask why are
:45:42. > :45:52.manifested needs to be got right has forgotten the so-called long suicide
:45:53. > :45:58.note of Labour. Manifestoes have to be realistic and believable like
:45:59. > :46:06.never before. All parties ought to have known that if you don't end up
:46:07. > :46:13.with and -- a majority, you won't be able to deliver your manifesto. The
:46:14. > :46:18.problem, and in fluent Lib Dem that is pronounced tuition fees, is that
:46:19. > :46:23.unfulfilled promises can look like deliberately broken ones. Never
:46:24. > :46:29.overpromise. Always under promise and overdeliver and it comes to the
:46:30. > :46:34.manifesto. We saw what happened to the Lib Dems when they made up, some
:46:35. > :46:47.tuition fees and were not able to deliver it. Manifestoes are vitally
:46:48. > :46:54.important to restore trust and credibility. What has hung parties
:46:55. > :46:59.is that voters don't trust manifestoes any more than promises
:47:00. > :47:03.to be different. So should the manifestoes be so honest that they
:47:04. > :47:08.acknowledge parties may have to compromise with another party? It is
:47:09. > :47:13.not our duty to start hedging our bets. Bid if there is a hung
:47:14. > :47:17.parliament, we have to assume there is a clear result to the general
:47:18. > :47:23.election and let people know what our approach to all of the important
:47:24. > :47:29.issues that people worry about would be. And then they know what they are
:47:30. > :47:33.voting for. So should there be red lines in a manifesto before polling
:47:34. > :47:41.day is that know what they might get in a no majority situation after?
:47:42. > :47:44.You have undermined your ability to get what you want if you don't. All
:47:45. > :47:48.of the parties have created their own processes this time took include
:47:49. > :47:54.input from as many as possible, but when it comes to word in the
:47:55. > :47:57.document, there are things to watch. The most successful manifestoes are
:47:58. > :48:03.the ones that say the least, because that gives you the opportunity to
:48:04. > :48:13.set the tone. Margaret Thatcher's 1979 manifesto was barely ten pages
:48:14. > :48:17.long. We have a finely balanced and sophisticated way of ensuring that
:48:18. > :48:24.we come up with a manifesto that is a winning manifesto rather than just
:48:25. > :48:27.a great big wish list. In the run-up to May 2015, you can bet voters and
:48:28. > :48:31.journalists will be looking closely at the final documents to decide
:48:32. > :48:38.which of those things each manifesto actually is. Andrea Leadsom, what
:48:39. > :48:42.sort of manifesto would you like to see for the Conservative Party?
:48:43. > :48:49.Something that promises that also you don't have to go back on it, or
:48:50. > :48:52.you lay everything out as a purely Conservative manifesto regardless of
:48:53. > :48:59.what might happen in any future accommodation negotiations? It is
:49:00. > :49:02.certainly the case that we intend to win a clear majority at the next
:49:03. > :49:06.election, and what is really important to us is that we stick to
:49:07. > :49:10.our guns. We have had the worst recession since the war, and it has
:49:11. > :49:20.been much worse than was expected even at the time. Our loss of GDP
:49:21. > :49:24.was enormous, so what we have to do is to continue with what we are
:49:25. > :49:29.doing, to help businesses to create more jobs, to get our education
:49:30. > :49:36.reforms working so that young people can get onto the job ladder and so
:49:37. > :49:42.on. A pure conservative growth manifesto and no knowledge of the
:49:43. > :49:46.Liberal Democrats, then? I think that conservative values are about
:49:47. > :49:49.giving people opportunities to reflect the fact that people aspired
:49:50. > :49:54.to do better than their parents did, and they want their children to
:49:55. > :49:58.do better than they did, and that I hope will be the foundation of a
:49:59. > :50:05.Conservative manifesto. What about red lines in the sand? Top rates of
:50:06. > :50:10.tax, for example? July to bring it down a little further? In the
:50:11. > :50:18.referendum on renegotiation, with there be more specifics on Europe?
:50:19. > :50:22.That is well above my pay grade. The Prime Minister has made very clear
:50:23. > :50:27.his determination to deliver a referendum on Britain's membership
:50:28. > :50:34.of a reformed EU, and I think he will make that referendum condition
:50:35. > :50:39.but beyond that, as I said at the start, we fully intend to try to
:50:40. > :50:43.form a Conservative majority government, and to be able to
:50:44. > :50:50.continue with our current long-term economic plan. What you think of
:50:51. > :50:54.Nick Clegg saying we must have a distinct ambition away from the
:50:55. > :51:02.Conservatives? The obvious he wants to differentiate his party from the
:51:03. > :51:07.Conservatives, but the economy is still in a very difficult position,
:51:08. > :51:11.we still have a deficit and a huge mountain of debt that we have made
:51:12. > :51:16.great strides towards improving as we said we would. But we have to
:51:17. > :51:20.carry on along that path. There is no short cut or easy decisions or
:51:21. > :51:27.ability to start rowing and spending more. Or cut taxes? In terms of what
:51:28. > :51:32.you do to try to stimulator growth, that is something for the manifesto.
:51:33. > :51:39.Are they worth the paper they are written on? They tell a story about
:51:40. > :51:48.a party. A lot of what you deal with in government today today is never
:51:49. > :51:52.going to appear in a manifesto. I agree with Angela Eagle and others
:51:53. > :51:58.that you set out your party's store and not talk about what you might
:51:59. > :52:02.negotiate, because we want to win an overall majority, too. It gives
:52:03. > :52:14.people be economic freedom to make their own choices. Isn't it a slight
:52:15. > :52:18.of hand? The Liberal Democrats promised the tuition fees but
:52:19. > :52:22.couldn't live in the end, and we know all the explanations. Isn't it
:52:23. > :52:27.dangerous to be a hostage to fortune, to promise to introduce
:52:28. > :52:33.something quite specific or dramatic that you may not be able to do if
:52:34. > :52:36.you are in coalition? The feedback on our original pledge card was
:52:37. > :52:39.positive as they were quite pacific, but they did allow room for
:52:40. > :52:44.manoeuvre, and it is being clear about the direction, but also we
:52:45. > :52:48.ought to be honest and open and acknowledge that as soon as we get
:52:49. > :52:52.into Government, what you have been left is different to what you
:52:53. > :52:55.expected, and things may be slower or faster than you expect, there may
:52:56. > :53:00.be an imperative for running the country, that you then need to take
:53:01. > :53:05.into account the speed at which implement something. I think there
:53:06. > :53:09.needs to be better discussion with the public, that it is not just a
:53:10. > :53:15.shopping list where you choose your party, but you also get a feel for
:53:16. > :53:24.the way the party would run the country. You mentioned UKIP, who
:53:25. > :53:30.don't have a manifesto, and seem to have done quite well, certainly at
:53:31. > :53:34.the European elections. Would that be a better recipe for success, if
:53:35. > :53:38.you did allow be a better recipe for success, if
:53:39. > :53:41.for your party without it being specifically written down?
:53:42. > :53:44.for your party without it being be a mixture of both. The feeling
:53:45. > :53:50.people have about your party on the doorstep makes a big difference.
:53:51. > :53:56.UKIP shouldn't be let off the hook, they need to be pinned down, because
:53:57. > :54:02.what Nigel Farage tries to put across, in the end he has to have
:54:03. > :54:06.something to write down. He is promising vague things that he would
:54:07. > :54:13.never be able to deliver, playing on a dissatisfaction and fracturing in
:54:14. > :54:17.the political system. You need something more concrete for people
:54:18. > :54:20.to make a decision. And for them to come back and hit you over the head
:54:21. > :54:25.with when you don't deliver it, Andrea Leadsom. I think manifesto is
:54:26. > :54:30.a very important. I deeply agree that a lot of it is about not so
:54:31. > :54:35.much the words but the values that you have and the vision that you
:54:36. > :54:39.have for where you are trying to move the country to, and that is
:54:40. > :54:41.incredibly important, too. So from a conservative point of view, it will
:54:42. > :54:46.be about trying to get that long-term recovery and to move
:54:47. > :54:51.towards a position where people have opportunities to help themselves. We
:54:52. > :54:56.are very much about that. And I agree that Nigel Farage needs to
:54:57. > :55:01.start to talk about very specific ideas for how he thinks the country
:55:02. > :55:04.can develop and grow. If you were describing your manifesto, would it
:55:05. > :55:14.be austerities of the Conservatives, what would it be for Labour and the
:55:15. > :55:20.Liberal Democrats? Opportunity. Fairness, particularly for those
:55:21. > :55:24.left behind. I would probably go for two, opportunity and recovery. Thank
:55:25. > :55:27.you very much. Now the Education Secretary can't
:55:28. > :55:30.seem to keep out of the headlines, although in fairness to Michael Gove
:55:31. > :55:33.his former special advisor is making Dominic Cummings has given
:55:34. > :55:36.an interview to today's Times newspaper, and he's not very
:55:37. > :55:38.complimentary about many people. Our correspondent Chris Mason
:55:39. > :55:53.is outside Westmisnter. Andrea, do you expect former special
:55:54. > :56:01.advisers to behave like Dominic Cummings? Michael Gove has made this
:56:02. > :56:06.clear that it is nothing to do with him. He has done an incredibly good
:56:07. > :56:12.job as an education Secretary, and that is important. I believe it was
:56:13. > :56:18.reported that he was back in the Department of education to deal with
:56:19. > :56:24.the problems around the Birmingham schools. And he is still an
:56:25. > :56:30.officially informing Michael Gove, should he be? What Michael Gove
:56:31. > :56:34.needs to be known for is his own track record in that part, and there
:56:35. > :56:38.are no quarter of a million fewer children in failing schools than
:56:39. > :56:40.when took over. He has created a revolution in improving the
:56:41. > :56:45.education of our children, so he can't be held responsible for some
:56:46. > :56:50.that even a friend of his says, which was completely not with his
:56:51. > :56:55.authorisation or agreement. Sign quo she hits on the 20s as a friend of
:56:56. > :56:58.his, because it is a time when the Prime Minister has one reshuffle
:56:59. > :57:01.left in his back pocket, people are jockeying for position, and the idea
:57:02. > :57:04.that Dominic Cummings didn't have some understanding with him before
:57:05. > :57:10.coming out with this huge swathe of criticism, it helps to keep Michael
:57:11. > :57:14.Gove in the headlines and makes it difficult for him to be moved sacked
:57:15. > :57:19.if it will come to that, and it also gives him a platform after the
:57:20. > :57:25.general election. He is just a frame. He is in and out of the
:57:26. > :57:33.Department. Is he Batman and Michael Gove Robin? Or is it the other way
:57:34. > :57:38.around? I dread to think! But should he be told to shut up? Should
:57:39. > :57:52.Michael Gove be told that he needs to sever all links? If it was me,
:57:53. > :57:55.that is what I would be saying, but again, you have to look at the
:57:56. > :58:05.fantastic job that Michael Gove has done. He ought to keep his friends
:58:06. > :58:09.in check. When Dominic Cummings was on the payroll, he did at least have
:58:10. > :58:16.some accountability, now he does not. Gordon Brown's advisers were
:58:17. > :58:20.hardly held on a pedestal. Some advisers get a little above their
:58:21. > :58:23.station. They are only there because the politicians they work with were
:58:24. > :58:26.elected into government. But do they do their bidding? Is it the
:58:27. > :58:31.Minister's problem? Yes, it is. The One O'Clock News is
:58:32. > :58:36.starting over on BBC One now. I'll be here
:58:37. > :58:39.at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories of the day,
:58:40. > :58:45.and an interview with this lady. Yes, I'll be speaking to Baroness
:58:46. > :58:56.Trumpington, so do join me then. Trumpington, so do join me then.
:58:57. > :59:01.Something has got me through, and I think I'm terribly lucky.
:59:02. > :59:22.Yes, I'll be speaking to Baroness Trumpington, so do join me then.
:59:23. > :59:26.to the cutting-edge science that's driving it,