:00:43. > :00:44.Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:45. > :00:46.The Iraqi government asks the United States for air strikes
:00:47. > :00:50.Reports this morning say parts of the city of Baquba,
:00:51. > :00:53.just 40 miles from Baghdad, have been taken over by the rebels.
:00:54. > :00:56.In a sign of thawing relations with Iran, the Foreign Secretary,
:00:57. > :00:59.William Hague, announces the UK will re-open its embassy in Tehran.
:01:00. > :01:04.The Government needs to spend more on flood defences -
:01:05. > :01:10.We'll hear from the MP whose report on the winter floods says ministers
:01:11. > :01:16.have got their priorities wrong, as well as the Floods Minister himself.
:01:17. > :01:19.And we hear from a political legend - Baroness Trumpington - who tells
:01:20. > :01:27.me about life in the Lords, Margaret Thatcher, and that V sign.
:01:28. > :01:45.All that in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme
:01:46. > :01:47.today I'm joined by two big beasts from the Scottish political jungle.
:01:48. > :01:50.The former Scottish Secretary, Michael Forsyth,
:01:51. > :01:51.from the Scottish political jungle. The former Scottish Welcome to you
:01:52. > :02:06.both. Michael Forsyth,
:02:07. > :02:09.Let's start with breaking news this morning - the Foreign Secretary,
:02:10. > :02:10.William Hague, has announced that the UK will start to restore
:02:11. > :02:15.diplomatic relations with Iran. How good a decision is this? I think
:02:16. > :02:20.it is a good reason. Any influence that can bring the different warring
:02:21. > :02:23.parties back from the briming and a potential civil war between sunny
:02:24. > :02:28.and Shi'ite is to be welcomed. But also for the other reason, which is
:02:29. > :02:33.trying to get Iran's nuclear weapons programme sorted out and I think
:02:34. > :02:37.having full diplomatic relations is conducive to that being more rather
:02:38. > :02:42.than less likely. Do you agree with that? I mean there has been a
:02:43. > :02:45.thawing of relations we have been told for sometime and it has been
:02:46. > :02:47.under discussion what the relationship should be between
:02:48. > :02:52.Britain and Iran. Do you think, first of all, that Iran is the key
:02:53. > :02:56.to trying to stabilise the region with events unfolding in Iraq? I
:02:57. > :03:00.think it is unfortunate that things have been so bad between us and
:03:01. > :03:05.Iran. I think quite a will the of the credit - while we are all
:03:06. > :03:11.agreeing - goes to Kathy Ashdown who has done a fantastic job at a
:03:12. > :03:14.European level, trying to restore diplomatic relations and trying to
:03:15. > :03:18.persuade Iran they might have a civil nuclear programme but them
:03:19. > :03:22.having nuclear weapons would be a very destabilising thing. So this is
:03:23. > :03:26.part of a process - of course there is the current problem in Iraq,
:03:27. > :03:31.which is very serious indeed, and if we can get the Iranians to help to
:03:32. > :03:36.deal with the instability that's obviously important. But this, of
:03:37. > :03:41.course, a country that has been blamed for exporting terrorism. Its
:03:42. > :03:45.ties with Hezbollah and of course the issue of whether it is
:03:46. > :03:50.developing a sinister nuclear programme, is this really who we
:03:51. > :03:53.want to have having warm relations with? The lessons from the Middle
:03:54. > :03:59.East is there are many things one can take exception to in many places
:04:00. > :04:04.but the lesson from Iraq and the instability that was caused by the
:04:05. > :04:10.UK's intervention together with the United States, lifted a lid on the
:04:11. > :04:14.pressure cooker. And has helped unleash forces which are very, very
:04:15. > :04:18.difficult to control. We need to look at every possible avenue to try
:04:19. > :04:23.and get countries that have influence on the different sides to
:04:24. > :04:28.use their good offices to try to get people to come back from the brink.
:04:29. > :04:31.So, by maintaining a embassy in different countries and one has
:04:32. > :04:36.embassies in one countries with all kinds of regimes, whether one likes
:04:37. > :04:41.them or not, it is the right thing to do, to try to get things on to a
:04:42. > :04:44.diplomatic route as opposed to the potential for all-out war in Iraq.
:04:45. > :04:49.This has been a turn around. Painted by many people, when you think of
:04:50. > :04:53.the axis of evil, arch enemy, Iran, certainly of the United States, if
:04:54. > :04:57.not of the West as a whole and here we are moving into a different
:04:58. > :05:03.phase. There is nothing new in that. You only have tolike at which side
:05:04. > :05:08.we were backing in the Iran/Iraq war. If you think back a few months
:05:09. > :05:10.ago, people were arguing we should be supporting the opposition
:05:11. > :05:14.militarily in Syria. Of course, they are the same people who are now
:05:15. > :05:18.threatening the stability of Iraq. So, I think what we have to
:05:19. > :05:23.recognise is what is going on here is, there is an age-long war between
:05:24. > :05:28.the sunnies and the Shi'ites and it is very important -- sunnies and
:05:29. > :05:32.sheitis and it is important to establish responsibility and I'm
:05:33. > :05:34.afraid past interventions have made things worse rather than better. We
:05:35. > :05:43.will come on to that later. This morning we learn that
:05:44. > :05:47.Michael Gove has decided to get tough on school meals,
:05:48. > :05:49.so our question for today is: What does the Education Secretary
:05:50. > :05:51.intend to ban Is it A, ketchup, B, salt, C,
:05:52. > :05:56.French food or D, deep fried food? At the end
:05:57. > :06:10.of the show our guests will try to What makes someone British?
:06:11. > :06:14.This morning the latest British Attitudes Survey was
:06:15. > :06:17.released and it shows that our views have changed in the last few years.
:06:18. > :06:21.The survey asked people what makes someone truly British.
:06:22. > :06:28.95% of people believe you must be able to speak English.
:06:29. > :06:32.that's gone up from 86% in 2003. Over three-quarters said you must
:06:33. > :06:36.have lived in Britain all your life. In 2003, that figure was 69%.
:06:37. > :06:40.Just under three-quarters of those polled said it's important to be
:06:41. > :06:46.born in Britain to be considered British and around half said it's
:06:47. > :06:53.important to have British ancestry. That's up from 46% in 2003.
:06:54. > :06:58.The survey also found a tougher stance on immigration.
:06:59. > :07:03.Just over 60% of those questioned said immigrants
:07:04. > :07:06.should wait three years or more before they claim welfare benefits.
:07:07. > :07:09.More than 40% of people think immigrants increase crime rates,
:07:10. > :07:12.that's up from 37% in 2003. We've been joined by Penny Young
:07:13. > :07:14.from NatCen Social Research, which compiled this report.
:07:15. > :07:22.Welcome to the programme. Just tell us, how do you do the research? We
:07:23. > :07:25.do a survey each year. We interview about 3,000 people across Great
:07:26. > :07:29.Britain. It is a very high-quality sample. We make great efforts to get
:07:30. > :07:33.people to participate. How do you do that? What sort of people are you
:07:34. > :07:36.getting to take part? We make sure it is representative sample. We
:07:37. > :07:39.don't interview people on the street. We pre-select addresses.
:07:40. > :07:43.They go to the addresses and they try really hard to get the right
:07:44. > :07:46.person to take part. So we have a high response rate on it. As Britain
:07:47. > :07:50.becomes more diverse, you might expect people to become more relaxed
:07:51. > :07:54.about what it means to be British. Is that the case? Well, not quite.
:07:55. > :07:59.We were really interested particularly, you know, with
:08:00. > :08:02.so-called Trojan Horse and the rise of Euro-scepticism and so on to
:08:03. > :08:05.really look at Britishness and what makes you truly British. In
:08:06. > :08:07.particular, is it something you can acquire or is it something you were
:08:08. > :08:09.born with? acquire or is it something you were
:08:10. > :08:13.born One of the key findings in changes, compared with ten years ago
:08:14. > :08:15.s now pretty much everybody thinks you must be able to speak English
:08:16. > :08:18.s now pretty much everybody thinks you must be able to to be considered
:08:19. > :08:23.truly British. It was high ten years ago, it was 86%. So that's a real
:08:24. > :08:26.shift. It is now a unanimous view. What about the impact of
:08:27. > :08:30.immigration? What does the survey tell us about that, apart that
:08:31. > :08:34.broadly people's views seems to have hardened? It is a mixed picture in a
:08:35. > :08:38.sense in terms of immigration. On some things it has definitely
:08:39. > :08:42.hardened. People are much less relaxed, for example about high
:08:43. > :08:45.grants having the same legal rights as settled citizens. That's
:08:46. > :08:49.toughened. There are small rises in terms of the percentage who think
:08:50. > :08:54.that the impact of immigration is positive on the economy and on our
:08:55. > :08:58.cultural life but nevertheless, what we see - these figures object cure a
:08:59. > :09:00.lot of differences within the population and there are different
:09:01. > :09:04.views. One of the most striking views is if you have a degree, you
:09:05. > :09:07.are very positive about the impact of immigration on the economy and on
:09:08. > :09:11.the cultural lifetime nation. Everybody else, it is a negative
:09:12. > :09:14.effect. So, in a sense, there are two sections within the British
:09:15. > :09:18.public, with very different views. In terms of the responses, where
:09:19. > :09:23.people live, was there a big difference between people who lived
:09:24. > :09:26.in England or English and Scottish participants, towards immigration?
:09:27. > :09:29.The key finding we found is actually the big differences between London
:09:30. > :09:33.and the rest of Great Britain. It is a very striking finding. People in
:09:34. > :09:38.London are really about twice as positive as the rest of the UK. It's
:09:39. > :09:41.a very different finding. Now that's partly explained because it is
:09:42. > :09:45.younger, more mobile population, clearly more migrants. People have
:09:46. > :09:49.more contact with migrants, better educated and so on. But it is a
:09:50. > :09:53.striking finding. Again, one of the key themes in the report is one of
:09:54. > :09:58.polarisation, we find that again on what makes you British. There is a
:09:59. > :10:02.significant minority of about one-third who are relaxed who think
:10:03. > :10:05.you can acquire British identity but everybody else thinks you have to be
:10:06. > :10:09.born, three-quarters says you have to be born. Does that worry you, the
:10:10. > :10:13.changes in statistics, now that so many people think that in order to
:10:14. > :10:16.be British you have to be born here and certainly to speak English. I
:10:17. > :10:20.thought it was a very interesting report. What it seems to me is it
:10:21. > :10:23.shows what happens if you lose control of your borders and you have
:10:24. > :10:25.substantial immigration, which is what happened under the last Labour
:10:26. > :10:30.Government. I think it is quite important that we recognise that the
:10:31. > :10:34.experience which people who are not graduates, who are struggling to be
:10:35. > :10:37.find work, living in perhaps deprived areas, struggling to find
:10:38. > :10:41.housing, then it is much more of an issue for them. I'm not surprised by
:10:42. > :10:46.the numbers. On the business of having to speak English,ing I mean I
:10:47. > :10:52.think that should be absolutely the law. I don't think you should be
:10:53. > :10:57.allowed to come into Britain unless you can speak English. It has become
:10:58. > :11:01.more of an issue now, I think, because there are so many people in
:11:02. > :11:05.our country who do not speak English. Annous combha what about
:11:06. > :11:10.your response. You are saying there is a more mixed Piccadilly tour,
:11:11. > :11:17.people are more positive about the economics -- more picked picture.
:11:18. > :11:21.That would be the case in my part of the world in the north of Scotland
:11:22. > :11:25.where people who have come from other European countries are now a
:11:26. > :11:30.vital part of our local economy. It is not part of the Social Attitude
:11:31. > :11:35.Survey so, it is not a criticism but I would draw attention tote fact
:11:36. > :11:39.that at the time of the last survey when it was taken, last year s about
:11:40. > :11:42.the beginning of the time when an unprecedented amount of media
:11:43. > :11:45.coverage was given to an anti-immigration party using
:11:46. > :11:51.anti-immigration rhetoric, a political party which I'm very
:11:52. > :11:56.disappointed did so well particularly down south. In Scotland
:11:57. > :12:05.UKIP only polled fourth. Something I'm pleased about. Indeed, nobody
:12:06. > :12:08.should downplay the risks of anti-immigration rhetoric on public
:12:09. > :12:11.opinion and I think that some of that is being reflected in some of
:12:12. > :12:16.the findings that have been published today. You are shaking
:12:17. > :12:18.your head. Let me bring to you something else, Michael Forsyth.
:12:19. > :12:22.Research shows people in England and Wales are not necessarily as hostile
:12:23. > :12:26.to the idea of Scotland continuing to use the pound in the convenient
:12:27. > :12:31.of a "yes" vote. What do you say to that. I would be very interested -
:12:32. > :12:34.if they have asked people - would you like to guarantee the savings
:12:35. > :12:37.deposits of people in a foreign country like Scotland, whether you
:12:38. > :12:42.would have got the same answer. I think it is a question - not being
:12:43. > :12:46.patronising at all, but it is a question that most people don't
:12:47. > :12:50.understand theism gaugeses or the difference between a money union or
:12:51. > :12:55.a dollarisation. How was the question posed? I must admit we
:12:56. > :13:01.didn't ask it quite like that. Quite in the leading way that Lord Forsyth
:13:02. > :13:04.mentioneds. Nonetheless it is important to understand where people
:13:05. > :13:06.are coming from. There are interesting findings south of the
:13:07. > :13:10.border in terms of how people would feel. What we were interesting in,
:13:11. > :13:13.is what would happen if Scotland does votele. On some things, for
:13:14. > :13:18.example, the English and Welsh have firm views. They say - actually we
:13:19. > :13:24.thinks the Scots should face up to whether they should choose a British
:13:25. > :13:28.or Scottish passport. Actually we think they should face up to try
:13:29. > :13:32.department and we would take them up to. But on other thing, the BBC and
:13:33. > :13:36.the Queen, people south of the border are relaxed for the Scots to
:13:37. > :13:43.carry on. So the interesting thing, post a "yes" vote we would still be
:13:44. > :13:47.interested in the Queen, the about BBC and Stlictly. This is debated in
:13:48. > :13:52.a Scottish context, the social union, the things we would share and
:13:53. > :13:55.would continue to after a "yes" vote. This is the first detailed
:13:56. > :13:58.examination of views in England and Wales on this subject I'm delighted
:13:59. > :14:02.there is a such a positive view across all of the subjects when it
:14:03. > :14:07.comes to those things that we plan and wish to continue sharing because
:14:08. > :14:11.we value the social union rather than reacting to the smears and
:14:12. > :14:16.fears we have had from the "no" side. We will leave it there.
:14:17. > :14:19.Sadly Scotland didn't qualify for the World Cup but that's OK because
:14:20. > :14:22.there's another major news event to get Scots arguing down the pub.
:14:23. > :14:23.The independence referendum on 18th September.
:14:24. > :14:26.There's a different story to cover every day, so here's
:14:27. > :14:40.Adam to bring us up to date. A busy time in the referendum campaign. The
:14:41. > :14:47.pro union campaign revealed its plans. Nicola Sturgeon unveiled an
:14:48. > :14:52.interim god Egyptian. JK Rowling donated ?1 million to the no
:14:53. > :14:59.campaign. Alex campaign Ruslan Tuchin Alex Salmond was accused of
:15:00. > :15:04.smearing and activist. Before Christmas, the polls were
:15:05. > :15:11.pointing consistently towards a 3-2 majority for the no vote, just over
:15:12. > :15:17.60%, under 40% saying they would vote yes. Look at the same picture
:15:18. > :15:25.now, it is only 56% for the no campaign. The polls are showing
:15:26. > :15:33.this. What about the campaign on the ground? First stop, on Glasgow South
:15:34. > :15:36.Side. What struck me is how the campaign has tweaked its message so
:15:37. > :15:42.there is a leaflet that appeals to everyone.
:15:43. > :15:47.We have the official Yes Scotland is that, green leaflets, labour for
:15:48. > :15:50.independence leaflets, bicycle independence, all the information
:15:51. > :15:56.for the different parts of the campaign. The grandma shopping
:15:57. > :16:03.bags, are they freebies for older voters or for campaigners?
:16:04. > :16:09.They could be either. They reckon their secret weapon isn't free bags
:16:10. > :16:18.but mums like Anna, apolitical but passion for independence.
:16:19. > :16:23.When I am with friends who know I am campaigning, asking my opinions,
:16:24. > :16:29.asking how the campaign is going. It has created a sense of enthusiasm. I
:16:30. > :16:35.have not seen that before. Now to Edinburgh and the no campaign who
:16:36. > :16:38.preferred to be called the Better Together campaign and who want to
:16:39. > :16:44.talk about the facts. The leaflets don't give the
:16:45. > :16:48.information, so here are the facts about the currency which is a big
:16:49. > :16:55.issue in this campaign. Jobs, shipyards. But the campaign has been
:16:56. > :17:01.criticised for being too negative so they have unveiled a new slogan, No
:17:02. > :17:08.Thanks. The activists have been told to be patriotic and personal.
:17:09. > :17:13.I grew up in London. Do you have issues with explaining you spend a
:17:14. > :17:19.bit of your life down south? Not at all. I feel this campaign is about
:17:20. > :17:25.keeping together. The fact I grew up in England, I was 11 when I moved
:17:26. > :17:29.back, I feel that strength is our message. They are running a phone
:17:30. > :17:31.campaign called Blather Together, a joke will get only if you have lived
:17:32. > :17:32.here. It's not just the big boys of your
:17:33. > :17:37.Scotland and better together involved in this referendum. There
:17:38. > :17:39.are loads of other players. For example, all the main political
:17:40. > :17:42.parties are each allowed to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on
:17:43. > :17:45.campaigning, and then there are the associated groups in the worlds of
:17:46. > :17:50.religion, creative arts and business. I just found one on
:17:51. > :18:00.Twitter called Grannies For The report would be complete without
:18:01. > :18:03.an obligatory time reference, there are just 92 days to go.
:18:04. > :18:08.And my two guests throughout the programme today, Michael Forsyth and
:18:09. > :18:13.Angus Robertson, are on opposing sides in the referendum debate.
:18:14. > :18:21.Michael, we saw both campaigns. Have you been impressed with the Better
:18:22. > :18:26.Together campaign? It got off to a slow start. There
:18:27. > :18:31.was some complacency but they are winning the argument is hands down.
:18:32. > :18:35.Whenever anyone comes out in support of the Better Together campaign, the
:18:36. > :18:41.Secretary-General of the NATO alliance, or the Pope who indicated
:18:42. > :18:48.he was worried about division, this is published by the other side. On
:18:49. > :18:51.the big issues, the currency, membership of Europe, the natural
:18:52. > :18:57.services, we are accused of scaremongering and being negative.
:18:58. > :19:02.People are beginning to realise the importance. I spoke at a meeting on
:19:03. > :19:08.Sunday night at five pm., and 500 people turned up, in a debate where
:19:09. > :19:14.I have never known so much interest in a political issue. It is good we
:19:15. > :19:17.are having that. On the campaign, has Alistair
:19:18. > :19:23.Darling done a good job, was he the right figurehead?
:19:24. > :19:30.He has done a good job. It is great Gordon Brown and others have become
:19:31. > :19:33.involved. A bit late? It is a bit late. I would have liked to have
:19:34. > :19:38.seen every household getting a leaflet setting out the positive
:19:39. > :19:43.case for our continued membership of the UK. The SNP have been using
:19:44. > :19:45.Government resources to put across their propaganda which is another
:19:46. > :19:53.issue. You have been using Government
:19:54. > :19:57.resources for propaganda? The UK government is spending
:19:58. > :20:02.?700,000 on giving information to every household. The debate is
:20:03. > :20:07.happening in every community in every village and town. There is
:20:08. > :20:12.unprecedented turnout at these meetings. A tremendously healthy
:20:13. > :20:17.thing. The debate is overwhelmingly positive. It is one that is
:20:18. > :20:23.respectful, one that people listen to. In the darker recesses of the
:20:24. > :20:30.Internet, there are those who use language which every side would
:20:31. > :20:35.deprecate. Alistair Darling describing the First Minister,
:20:36. > :20:51.comparing him with Kim Donald John. I want to concentrate on the
:20:52. > :20:59.positive. -- Kim il-Jong. I condemn anybody who uses intemperate
:21:00. > :21:02.language. He makes accusations about people's motives. This is a
:21:03. > :21:09.democratic debate about how we should be governed. It is not about
:21:10. > :21:16.where people come from, it is not impugning people's motives.
:21:17. > :21:20.Sometimes, unfortunately, we ascribe far too much importance to the
:21:21. > :21:25.darker recesses of Facebook or Twitter, and it is beyond me. Any
:21:26. > :21:31.time anyone is intemperate, I will condemn it. Michael, you said in the
:21:32. > :21:34.past there are Conservative MPs in England who want Scotland to vote
:21:35. > :21:38.for independence because it would electorally be better for the
:21:39. > :21:41.Conservative Party. Who are you referring to?
:21:42. > :21:47.There have always been a few people who have taken the view if we didn't
:21:48. > :21:51.have Scotland, we wouldn't have 49 Labour MPs coming down. It is what
:21:52. > :21:56.Labour bought when they set up a Scottish Parliament, they thought
:21:57. > :22:00.they would dominate. But we have ended up with a nationalist
:22:01. > :22:07.Government. Things don't always work out. We United Kingdom. We want
:22:08. > :22:12.proper representation from Scotland. It is important to maintain that
:22:13. > :22:15.union. The Scottish Conservatives are behind more devolution for
:22:16. > :22:19.Scotland, is that something you support?
:22:20. > :22:24.That is not an issue for now. The issue for now is whether Scotland is
:22:25. > :22:27.going to be part of the United Kingdom.
:22:28. > :22:31.If we are going to talk about more powers for the Scottish Parliament,
:22:32. > :22:37.then that is not just a matter for Scotland but for the UK as a whole.
:22:38. > :22:41.Are you against more devolution for Scotland? If you are going to give
:22:42. > :22:47.more powers, we have two address the West Lothian Scotland -- question.
:22:48. > :22:52.That is about what are the walls of the club? We are deciding whether
:22:53. > :23:04.Scotland remains in the club. And this, on key issues like the pound,
:23:05. > :23:08.monarchy, why would anyone risk to go back to the beginning of the
:23:09. > :23:10.Better Together campaign? The reason I am
:23:11. > :23:16.Better Together campaign? The smiling is in that report, the
:23:17. > :23:22.no vote claiming to be in support of more powers, they were demonstrating
:23:23. > :23:28.their support for this on top of Carlton Hill at a monument better
:23:29. > :23:31.known as Edinburgh's folly. An apt choice where they chose to
:23:32. > :23:37.demonstrate their support for further devolution. The leader of
:23:38. > :23:42.the Scottish Conservative Party was elected on a platform of a line in
:23:43. > :23:48.the sand. How credible is that? We were told in the 1970s to vote no,
:23:49. > :23:55.then had 18 years of Tory Government with no further devolution. He is
:23:56. > :24:00.not answering the question. Alex Salmond was opposed to devolution.
:24:01. > :24:04.One thing we have in common. He was against devolution because they
:24:05. > :24:09.thought it would spike their guns. I was against because I thought it
:24:10. > :24:13.would give the SNP a platform to break up the UK. The idea of going
:24:14. > :24:18.back and looking at what they said in the past, the issue for now is
:24:19. > :24:23.whether we want to destroy the UK. As people in Scotland are aware, the
:24:24. > :24:27.offer was on the table when we knew there was a referendum for the no
:24:28. > :24:34.side to state exactly what they wanted. They weren't prepared to
:24:35. > :24:38.come up with detail. We are supposed to believe that they are going to
:24:39. > :24:42.deliver a fantastically improved package of governance when they
:24:43. > :24:48.can't provide details. Have you provided detail on things like the
:24:49. > :24:54.pound, membership of the EU. A good question, I have before me
:24:55. > :25:01.what a yes vote will mean, the most detailed proposal provided. I have
:25:02. > :25:10.glimpsed that, does it answered those questions? Scotland's future,
:25:11. > :25:15.an anagram is fraudulent cost. It does not have any answers to the key
:25:16. > :25:19.questions. It does say we would have an entry into the Eurovision Song
:25:20. > :25:26.contest, but does not deal with our position and able to join the EU, or
:25:27. > :25:34.how we would defend ourselves against a nuclear deterrent. Do you
:25:35. > :25:39.both agree, though, watching that film, that actually in these closing
:25:40. > :25:48.few weeks, is it more about Hearts and minds? Yes, heart and head. I
:25:49. > :25:53.think it is about Hearts, history and heritage. Paul says, why can't
:25:54. > :25:58.Scots who are born in Scotland vote, because they happen to live in
:25:59. > :26:03.England, Wales and Northern Ireland? The voting rules which have been
:26:04. > :26:19.agreed to follow the president of past referenda. -- precedent. I can
:26:20. > :26:24.understand why they would wish to take part but there isn't a
:26:25. > :26:29.tradition of extraterritorial voting in the UK. The way the system has
:26:30. > :26:32.been organised is exactly the same as it has been for previous
:26:33. > :26:36.referenda. Colin says, who qualifies for a
:26:37. > :26:40.Scottish passport in the event of a yes?
:26:41. > :26:50.Really that is a question for the people who want to break up the UK.
:26:51. > :26:54.There are 800,000 Scots in England. In Scotland, if they vote yes to
:26:55. > :26:59.separatism, they will become foreigners in their own country,
:27:00. > :27:03.that is a huge step and will cause resentment on both sides of the
:27:04. > :27:08.border. 40,000 English people live in Scotland who will be turned into
:27:09. > :27:13.foreigners and who will have to choose their citizenship. It is a
:27:14. > :27:20.nonsense, citizens of the Irish Republic are not considered
:27:21. > :27:24.foreigners in the UK. We are in favour of a grown up relationship
:27:25. > :27:33.between the nations. The elements of the social union we value, a shared
:27:34. > :27:38.head of state, shared TV programmes, but of course there will be a
:27:39. > :27:41.Scottish passport. For those who haven't taken the opportunity to
:27:42. > :27:49.read about this, page 222 of the White Paper, on citizenship and
:27:50. > :27:53.passports, is very detailed. I look forward to having a Scottish
:27:54. > :27:57.passport. PJ says what happened to the big UK
:27:58. > :28:03.civil service officers in Scotland, do they close?
:28:04. > :28:10.Not at all, we require Government ministries in Scotland. The vast
:28:11. > :28:18.majority of 77 deal with the administration of reserved powers in
:28:19. > :28:24.London. -- majority of civil servants.
:28:25. > :28:26.This morning a committee of MPs has published its report
:28:27. > :28:29.on the winter storms during which over 7,000 homes were flooded.
:28:30. > :28:31.Eleanor Garnier is outside the Palace of Westminster,
:28:32. > :28:46.Last winter was the wettest in more than 200 years in England and the
:28:47. > :28:50.way. There were record levels of water which meant widespread
:28:51. > :28:57.flooding and widespread misery. There were more than 150 severe
:28:58. > :29:01.weather warnings. Parts of Somerset remained underwater for three
:29:02. > :29:11.months. Joining me to discuss the report today is Anne McIntosh, and
:29:12. > :29:13.the Floods Minister. You said the Government has got its spending
:29:14. > :29:19.priorities wrong. We would like to return to more
:29:20. > :29:22.money being spent on dredging and maintenance to clear the backlog.
:29:23. > :29:28.The single change we would like to see which is what the Secretary Of
:29:29. > :29:30.State asked for is to remove the artificial distinction between
:29:31. > :29:34.capital spending and revenue spending, to have a total
:29:35. > :29:39.expenditure budget. On the first point, do you agree to
:29:40. > :29:43.maintenance, things like dredging, when neglected, and instead there
:29:44. > :29:46.was an obsession with new flood defences?
:29:47. > :29:51.I do not think you can choose between one or the other. We have
:29:52. > :29:57.detected many more communities under this scheme. We need to work with
:29:58. > :29:57.local partners to get the most out of
:29:58. > :29:57.this scheme. We need to work with local partners to get the most money
:29:58. > :30:01.invested. local partners to get the most money
:30:02. > :30:05.That is something we are doing in Somerset.
:30:06. > :30:07.Even if the revellers have been better maintained with board
:30:08. > :30:12.dredging, it wouldn't have prevented the flooding.
:30:13. > :30:16.No, it is like the health service, we will never have enough money to
:30:17. > :30:20.spend on all of the projects the Government would like. We would like
:30:21. > :30:28.to support the Government, labouring in new public sector and private
:30:29. > :30:30.sector funding. Why not get pension funds to invest in these real
:30:31. > :30:41.infrastructure projects. spending? We have to make sure it is
:30:42. > :30:45.new money, not money being used to rob peater to pay Paul. Teet of the
:30:46. > :30:48.floods, David Cameron said that money would be no object. But it
:30:49. > :30:52.seemed to be taking a very long time for this help to get through. For
:30:53. > :30:55.example, to farmers, whose land was destroyed. Certainly the money is
:30:56. > :30:59.there. It is making sure that farm remembers able to apply for T we
:31:00. > :31:03.simplified the o process and applications are going up. The key
:31:04. > :31:08.question is how we spend the money we are investing. The coalition is
:31:09. > :31:12.spending more in Norman Lamont. We want to get the best use of that,
:31:13. > :31:16.use the local knowledge. It will be a combination of schemes, with
:31:17. > :31:19.capital and working on the maintenance issues and looking at
:31:20. > :31:23.the ways we can hold water back higher up catchments. Each catchment
:31:24. > :31:27.is different. We have to manage it in a different way. Your committee
:31:28. > :31:30.is saying invest in prevention, rather than spending on the clear-up
:31:31. > :31:33.is obviously the priority. How are you going to convince Dan and his
:31:34. > :31:38.colleagues that that is exactly what is going to happen? Well, I believe
:31:39. > :31:42.that the single thing is to merge the budget and stop this the a fish
:31:43. > :31:49.argument about whether it is capital or rev UN we support in my own area,
:31:50. > :31:53.we've benefited from the upstream management scheme, retraining it and
:31:54. > :31:57.stopping it going through into towns like ours, it could work in the
:31:58. > :32:01.Somerset levels, and working more imagine in a #2i68. Having
:32:02. > :32:07.infrastructure and flood defences where needed. Having softer flood
:32:08. > :32:10.defences and regular drainage and maintenance but working, as Dan has
:32:11. > :32:15.said, with the locals, which is vital. Can you guarantee that the
:32:16. > :32:19.Somerset levels cannot flood again next year As a Government we cannot
:32:20. > :32:24.stop it raining. You set out in your piece how much water fell. But we
:32:25. > :32:27.can do things to help, we can use that local knowledge. The dredge
:32:28. > :32:31.something under way and demunts across the country there will be
:32:32. > :32:36.flood schemes -- under way and communities across the country,
:32:37. > :32:41.there will be flood schemes under way and the money invested Where
:32:42. > :32:45.drainage exists we ought to allow them to use more of their own
:32:46. > :32:49.resources and own engineering skills and knowledge to hold back the water
:32:50. > :32:53.more effectively. And finally, are you convinced, now your report and
:32:54. > :32:58.its findings will be taken up and followed through? Well, Government
:32:59. > :33:02.has two months in which to respond. We'll debate those issues when we
:33:03. > :33:06.hear a response but we believe we are pushing at an open door.
:33:07. > :33:10.Well, clearly those who hadhomes and businesses devastated by the floods
:33:11. > :33:15.will be hoping the Government has got its priorities right. And one
:33:16. > :33:19.final point from the report, the committee claims that because
:33:20. > :33:25.climate change is so unpredictable, the risk of flooding will continue
:33:26. > :33:29.to rise. ! Well, with that risk continuing and none of us left in
:33:30. > :33:35.any doubt S it about more money being spent on flood defence. -- any
:33:36. > :33:39.doubt. Is it about more money? No, that is important but where I live,
:33:40. > :33:43.my village has been flooded many times seriously. I went to a public
:33:44. > :33:45.meeting and there were experts who commissioned reports from
:33:46. > :33:49.consultants and the locals said - there are two trees in the river and
:33:50. > :33:54.we stopped cleaning out the river and there has been a change to the
:33:55. > :33:57.road which has - people don't listen to local opinion. The local
:33:58. > :34:01.authorities, in the old days, used to lack at the roads every year and
:34:02. > :34:07.expect the culverts and make sure the drains were maintained. But that
:34:08. > :34:11.costs and Yes and is easy to cut and that's why when we get the flash
:34:12. > :34:16.floods and systems can't cope. The answer is, as the report says, we
:34:17. > :34:19.need to put more money into minute tennance and maintaining our river
:34:20. > :34:23.banks and drainage systems and that has been lost because as a
:34:24. > :34:26.short-term measure with long-term and devastating consequences. But
:34:27. > :34:29.also because central government has cut the amount of money going to
:34:30. > :34:36.local authorities and as you say they make the decisions... In
:34:37. > :34:39.England and Wales. Thank you. It has had an affect. And the freezing of
:34:40. > :34:44.the council tax which means resources are limited. The truth of
:34:45. > :34:48.the matter is you can't have good local Government if they haven't got
:34:49. > :34:51.the resources to carry out long-term projects in the long-term interests
:34:52. > :34:51.of the communities. Flooding is an example of that.
:34:52. > :34:57.All right. Let's leave it there. Let's return to the crisis in Iraq.
:34:58. > :35:00.Yesterday the Foreign Secretary William Hague made a statement to
:35:01. > :35:08.the House of Commons about the ISIS insurgency there. Here's some of
:35:09. > :35:14.what was said. Our national interest lies
:35:15. > :35:16.in supporting a sovereign and democratic Iraq to resist these
:35:17. > :35:20.threats, offering assistance, where necessary and working with others to
:35:21. > :35:26.prevent the spread of terrorism in Iraq and throughout the region.
:35:27. > :35:31.We are taking action in three areas: promoting political unity
:35:32. > :35:34.among those who support a democratic Iraq, offering
:35:35. > :35:38.assistance where possible and alleviating humanitarian suffering.
:35:39. > :35:44.We have made it clear that this does not involve planning
:35:45. > :35:46.a military intervention by the UK. For most British people,
:35:47. > :35:51.including many of us who supported the action at
:35:52. > :35:53.the time, the fears of those opposed to the intervention have been
:35:54. > :35:57.vindicated by subsequent events. It is futile to deny that subsequent
:35:58. > :36:02.history as surely as it would be folly to repeat it.
:36:03. > :36:09.Yet it is also facile to suggest that the crisis affecting Iraq today
:36:10. > :36:11.can be attributed solely to the consequences of intervention.
:36:12. > :36:14.Such an account denies the truth that the slide towards
:36:15. > :36:17.crisis in Iraq has been exacerbated by the civil war in Syria.
:36:18. > :36:22.Mr Speaker, it's Foreign Secretary today and in his statements over
:36:23. > :36:27.recent days, confirmed that British military intervention in Iraq,
:36:28. > :36:32.is not being contemplated. I welcome this assurance.
:36:33. > :36:35.The Foreign Secretary was a minister in John Major's government.
:36:36. > :36:40.A government which did use military intervention to impose
:36:41. > :36:44.a no-fly zone to protect the Kurds. That policy was continued under
:36:45. > :36:47.the Tony Blair government and enhanced under that government.
:36:48. > :36:50.Therefore, is it not the case, that if there is a request
:36:51. > :36:56.from the Kurdish regional government for assistance, we should give it
:36:57. > :36:59.sympathetic consideration? Tony Blair took the UK to war
:37:00. > :37:05.in Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction, which never existing.
:37:06. > :37:11.Never existed. And he was then rewarded remarkably
:37:12. > :37:13.with the post of a Middle East peace envoy.
:37:14. > :37:16.Given his dangerous and ill-judged comments in
:37:17. > :37:19.the last days, described by his own colleague, the Mayor of London as
:37:20. > :37:23."unhinged", does he not agree that Tony Blair should not continue in
:37:24. > :37:27.post, as a Middle East peace envoy? No, I don't agree with that.
:37:28. > :37:30.Nor do I think that recent events in Iraq should be turned
:37:31. > :37:35.into a proxy debate about Tony Blair and everything that he has ever said
:37:36. > :37:38.or done. In any case,
:37:39. > :37:40.we have set up an inquiry in this House, into the Iraq war, and that
:37:41. > :37:49.inquiry will report in due course. Defence Select Committee, Rory
:37:50. > :37:59.Stewart. Welcome to the programme. We will
:38:00. > :38:04.come back to the issue of history and context and the 2003 invasion
:38:05. > :38:09.but can we concentrate for the moment on what is happening right
:38:10. > :38:13.now N your mind how much of a threat does Isis pose to the Middle East
:38:14. > :38:18.and in general, the world? Very considerable. It is great nightmare
:38:19. > :38:24.scenario. When people were talking about Iraq in 2007/8. They said a
:38:25. > :38:29.jihadist controlled failed state was what the entire operation was
:38:30. > :38:44.supposed to avoid and it is what we now have. Would it have happened if
:38:45. > :38:52.Sunnis in Iraq... That is that's a very good point. There is a lot of
:38:53. > :38:58.re-Septemberment against the Shia government. Malaki has been
:38:59. > :39:01.resistant to reaching out. In a hypothetical world you could imagine
:39:02. > :39:04.that happening but realistically there hasn't been much sign of that
:39:05. > :39:10.or much evidence that's the way things will go in the future. How
:39:11. > :39:16.well-funded and well-armed is ISIS. They now seem to be well-funded they
:39:17. > :39:21.have helped themselves to over $1 billion of cash. Even when they were
:39:22. > :39:24.operating on more of a shoe string, getting money from individual
:39:25. > :39:28.businessmen funneled through Kuwait or coming from Europe, they were
:39:29. > :39:30.proving effective and they must be much larger than some of the
:39:31. > :39:33.intelligence agencies were suggesting or they wouldn't be able
:39:34. > :39:38.to take a city of 2 million people. What about the state of the Iraqi
:39:39. > :39:43.Army? Very worrying again. We have been pumping an enormous amount of
:39:44. > :39:49.training and energy into making this Iraqi Army. $14 billion a year is
:39:50. > :39:59.spent on the Iraqi Army. It is one of the large armies per capital is
:40:00. > :40:04.it is not doing its job if we are talking about a collapsing army and
:40:05. > :40:07.are talking about ISIS forces coming closer, although it is reported they
:40:08. > :40:16.were held back outside of Baghdad. What exactly is the prospect of bag
:40:17. > :40:21.saying as a country or is it on the verge of collapse? It is difficult
:40:22. > :40:27.to predict. I don't think anyone saw this - predicted this four weeks
:40:28. > :40:29.ago. Why not? Western intelligence agencies criticised for failing to
:40:30. > :40:33.predict what might have happened. Why wasn't it seen We haven't been
:40:34. > :40:38.concentrating on Iraq, I think. That's all of us. Politicians, the
:40:39. > :40:42.media, think-tanks, we have been focussed on Syria and recently on
:40:43. > :40:50.Ukraine. We can now see over the last 12 months Isis has been
:40:51. > :40:54.developing in Iraq. And in Syria too But Mosul, almost 10% of the
:40:55. > :40:59.population there, if you'd suggested a group we had been told was 2,000,
:41:00. > :41:03.to 3,000 fighters would be able to do that, I don't think anyone would
:41:04. > :41:08.believe T where do we go in the future? You are right it'll increase
:41:09. > :41:12.the demand for an autonomous Sunni region. You back the idea of no
:41:13. > :41:16.intervention. That seems to be agreed across parties. What should
:41:17. > :41:19.be the British Government do? Firstly, understand the situations.
:41:20. > :41:24.I think your point is a really good one. We clearly have been taken
:41:25. > :41:27.aback by the speed of this. We need it get diplomats on the ground, more
:41:28. > :41:34.diplomats, more zwraunding more focus. And above all, we need to
:41:35. > :41:40.work out what we can do rather than saying what we ought to do. You are
:41:41. > :41:44.nodding Angus, the antiwar stance you and your party have taken, let's
:41:45. > :41:47.return to the comments made by Tony Blair. Is it really the right time
:41:48. > :41:51.to be going over recriminations that are made about what happened and
:41:52. > :41:55.uted reasons for the invasion in 2003 when we have a very serious
:41:56. > :42:01.situation here right now? Well, unless we get to the bottom of the
:42:02. > :42:05.stakes mistakes that have been made, there is possibility that we may
:42:06. > :42:08.repeat them. I'm glad there seems to be all-party consensus that military
:42:09. > :42:13.intervention is not the right thing but we have to learn the lessons. We
:42:14. > :42:16.don't have the conclusions of the Chilcot Inquiry. I think it is
:42:17. > :42:20.possible to do both things. I think we have to make sure we learn the
:42:21. > :42:23.lessons of what happened in the past. I endorse what Rory said on
:42:24. > :42:27.where we are now, we must understand what is going on. The forces behind
:42:28. > :42:31.the conflict and the potential for a full-on civil war between Sunni and
:42:32. > :42:36.Shi'ite and then not just in Iraq bus this goes across all kinds of
:42:37. > :42:41.borders, is absolutely calamitous and the ability of anybody of good
:42:42. > :42:44.faith, wherever in the international community, of having any impact is
:42:45. > :42:49.going to be very, very small. We have to invest what we can down the
:42:50. > :42:52.diplomatic rout. We have to make sure we are doing everything down
:42:53. > :42:56.the humanitarian route and it is only when we fully understand what
:42:57. > :43:01.is actually happening and how one could make a positive impact,
:43:02. > :43:05.increasingly through proximityies and neighbours that can exercise
:43:06. > :43:08.influence, that one can try to pull people back from the brink but it is
:43:09. > :43:13.important to understand potentially how calamitous. It is bad enough for
:43:14. > :43:16.those who have lost their lives and the hundreds of thousands of people
:43:17. > :43:20.who have had to leave Mosul and elsewhere, it is awful but it can
:43:21. > :43:30.get much worse and in pretty short order. What about Nouri Al-Maliki
:43:31. > :43:34.call for air strikes? Would you back that intersfrenges Washington?
:43:35. > :43:38.Absolutely not. It seems extraordinary to be advocating that
:43:39. > :43:41.in what is a civil war between two peating groups who have been
:43:42. > :43:46.competing for more than a Millennium. It is a complicated
:43:47. > :43:51.situation. It is Gilbert and Sullivan who warns statesmen not to
:43:52. > :43:54.interfere in matters that they do not understand. It is perfectly
:43:55. > :43:58.clear that people do not understand what happened is going on in
:43:59. > :44:01.#24r50es countries. One thing I would say, these appalling
:44:02. > :44:06.atrocities, the ordinary people who are in fear and now refugees,
:44:07. > :44:10.putting countries under pressure, which are already end prusure
:44:11. > :44:14.because of Syria, the most important thing we need to do is provide
:44:15. > :44:17.humanitarian aid and support to the countries. But it is also about
:44:18. > :44:24.bolstering some sort of Iraqi force to try to deal with it themselves?
:44:25. > :44:29.Yes, without underunderestimating how difficult it is going to be, it
:44:30. > :44:35.is a different situation than in 2007/8. We had over 00,000 soldiers
:44:36. > :44:38.t wasn't just done by air strikes. It didn't achieve a lasting
:44:39. > :44:42.solution, so we have to be realistic about what we can do. We need to be
:44:43. > :44:48.focussed on the fact that players like Russia Ian Iraq will try to
:44:49. > :44:51.exploited. But you sport idea of thawing relation was Iran and
:44:52. > :44:56.reopening the embassy in Tehran.. Don't get into the mindset that Iran
:44:57. > :45:02.is going to solve the situation. The Sunnis are angry about the Shias in
:45:03. > :45:06.Baghdad. Given Iran a big hand will not make the Sunni insurgents happy.
:45:07. > :45:10.In the end we will be taking sides to some extent if we are seen to
:45:11. > :45:14.boll stert Nouri Al-Maliki government, seen to be talking to
:45:15. > :45:28.Iran in more friendly terms than B as you said earlier, the sectarian
:45:29. > :45:32.rift that will only intensify. It is a matter which affects a number of
:45:33. > :45:39.countries in the Middle East and a number of our key allies. It is not
:45:40. > :45:43.something that can be solved by launching drones or engaging in
:45:44. > :45:49.military action. The consequences, the humanitarian consequences, will
:45:50. > :45:54.be awful. Even those people who have been subject to invasion now by
:45:55. > :45:59.these forces must be worrying about the counter offensive. And the
:46:00. > :46:04.brutality is unbelievable. We can't do very much, but what we
:46:05. > :46:10.can do in terms of what you are blind, we must do fairly quickly.
:46:11. > :46:15.In terms of the invasion in 2003, do you think that is now cladding our
:46:16. > :46:20.judgement? No, I think it is very useful to
:46:21. > :46:25.look at the lessons of that. It is not a very different situation now,
:46:26. > :46:33.to them. Similar players, similar insurgents. It would be foolish not
:46:34. > :46:38.to look at what we did. And to learn some humility from that.
:46:39. > :46:43.You were against the invasion in 2003, and like your party?
:46:44. > :46:47.I thought it would radicalise people in the Middle East and cause trouble
:46:48. > :46:52.on our own streets. You are in the Government of John
:46:53. > :46:56.Major during the first Gulf war. It was a different matter, the
:46:57. > :47:02.invasion of Kuwait. There is a doctrine of bringing democracy. You
:47:03. > :47:09.cannot democratise countries of the night. It was naive. Tony Blair's
:47:10. > :47:14.intervention has been unhelpful. He is in denial. Rory is right, there
:47:15. > :47:24.are lessons to be learned, for goodness sake, let us learn them.
:47:25. > :47:27.One reason to be anxious is we are relying on the Afghan National Army,
:47:28. > :47:33.saying if we train it properly, it will be fine. We said that about the
:47:34. > :47:37.Iraqi army four years ago. That is a reason to be concerned.
:47:38. > :47:39.Baroness Trumpington is one of the most adored characters in politics.
:47:40. > :47:42.And, at the age of 91, she's still going strong, regularly
:47:43. > :47:44.attending debates in the House of Lords, giving interviews to the
:47:45. > :47:49.Her book, Coming Up Trumps, tells the story of her fascinating life.
:47:50. > :47:51.Fom being a land girl during the Second World War,
:47:52. > :47:54.An advertising executive, a headmaster's wife.
:47:55. > :47:57.All that before a long career in politics, even serving as a minister
:47:58. > :48:06.Two years ago, she became
:48:07. > :48:07.Two years ago, a household name when, during a
:48:08. > :48:10.debate in the House of Lords, she stuck two fingers up at her
:48:11. > :48:18.remarks about her age! after he made some ill-advised
:48:19. > :48:21.Well, the clip was seen around the world, and won her a new army of
:48:22. > :48:25.fans. I went to her home to meet her, and I began by asking if she
:48:26. > :48:40.Oh, yes, very much so. He got what he deserved at the time. Did he see
:48:41. > :48:44.the joke? None of us knew that was going to happen.
:48:45. > :48:51.I thought I was doing it privately. I think he thought I was doing it
:48:52. > :48:55.privately. But, his relations in Australia said messages, how could
:48:56. > :49:00.you be so nasty to the lovely lady. Silly got told off by his own
:49:01. > :49:06.family. Did you regret swearing at him?
:49:07. > :49:14.No, he said people of my age were starting to look very old. Wouldn't
:49:15. > :49:19.you do that? What about you as a person? You seem
:49:20. > :49:24.to have a great sense of fun. Is that what has got you through?
:49:25. > :49:33.Something has got me through, I don't know what it is. I think I am
:49:34. > :49:39.terribly lucky. You see, I didn't owe anybody
:49:40. > :49:45.anything for having got where I got. So I think I was incredibly lucky.
:49:46. > :49:48.Did you love it in the House of Lords?
:49:49. > :49:52.Oh, yes, such a privilege, you know. And you learn so much about this
:49:53. > :50:01.country. One way or the other, there is always somebody who really knows
:50:02. > :50:06.what they are talking about. Really knows the situation. You always have
:50:07. > :50:12.somebody who has had practical experience. And you are a fall if
:50:13. > :50:16.you argue ignorantly against them, as some do.
:50:17. > :50:21.Did you ever fancy becoming an MP? Yes, I tried.
:50:22. > :50:33.I was much too difficult for them. On the Isle of Ely. And it ended up,
:50:34. > :50:38.they called me Mrs Baker all the way through, and I was too frightened to
:50:39. > :50:43.say I was Mrs Barker. They asked what I think. I've said, I think you
:50:44. > :50:47.are not going to make your MP, and I burst into tears.
:50:48. > :50:54.What about working with Margaret Thatcher? What was that like?
:50:55. > :50:59.Well, I took the view if she was going to sack me, she was going to
:51:00. > :51:03.sack me, so I had better be true to myself and set exactly what I
:51:04. > :51:07.thought. And if she sacked me, so what.
:51:08. > :51:10.Did you say what you thought to have?
:51:11. > :51:19.Exactly. And I think it was useful for her. She was terribly kind to
:51:20. > :51:25.me. I loved her dearly. I think she used me, because she
:51:26. > :51:31.knew I would not just say yes to something she had said. And that I
:51:32. > :51:36.would argue the matter. And it gave her ammunition on how to deal with
:51:37. > :51:43.other people. There was a poor man who sat between us at a dinner. And
:51:44. > :51:50.I started off by saying the Daily Mail is perfectly all right about
:51:51. > :51:57.mentally handicapped. Margaret barked, the Daily Mail is never
:51:58. > :52:00.right. Whereupon that started a verbal fisticuffs. This poor man
:52:01. > :52:05.thought we were going to hit each other. He had to sit in the middle
:52:06. > :52:08.of us, getting smaller and smaller. But that was the kind of thing that
:52:09. > :52:15.happened. That was the relationship you had.
:52:16. > :52:20.But you were friends? We work, to the last time I saw her.
:52:21. > :52:25.What about the current Prime Minister, do you like David Cameron?
:52:26. > :52:29.Let me put it this way. I don't think you know it Prime Minister
:52:30. > :52:35.terribly well, but I certainly knew his father very well, and I loved
:52:36. > :52:40.his father. And his mother. Heavenly people.
:52:41. > :52:48.How do you know them? We lived near each other. We were
:52:49. > :52:50.also very keen racing people, horse racing.
:52:51. > :52:56.Right, so you knew the family. And are you proud of him as a
:52:57. > :53:01.Conservative Prime Minister? Yes, of course. Do you think the
:53:02. > :53:06.Conservatives will still win the next election?
:53:07. > :53:16.I hope so, I hope so. We have got some jolly strong people, you know.
:53:17. > :53:23.And I am pro-Europe. I do think it is terribly important that we don't
:53:24. > :53:36.have a lot of people who haven't worked, who don't know Europe,
:53:37. > :53:39.worked with Europe, and are entirely island minded which I think is a
:53:40. > :53:46.mistake. So, the 20 17th issue, if the
:53:47. > :53:49.Conservatives are still in power, is that a good idea having a
:53:50. > :53:55.referendum? It is going to clear the air, I
:53:56. > :54:01.think. I instantly think that the Scots, if your name is Cameron, it
:54:02. > :54:10.must be difficult with the Scottish situation. And I think the Scots are
:54:11. > :54:15.really led by a madman, it is absolutely crazy what they are
:54:16. > :54:21.trying to do and I hope that their leader goes down, down, down.
:54:22. > :54:26.Politics, do you think it is changing for the better, how has it
:54:27. > :54:37.changed? Is it still a good thing? I don't know. I think it is hard. I
:54:38. > :54:41.am too near the, near what goes on in politics, to be able to judge
:54:42. > :54:51.that really, I think. What would I say? I think it has always been one
:54:52. > :54:59.party struggling against another, it always has been, taking the best
:55:00. > :55:03.advantage you can in a situation. And I do think, in this difficult
:55:04. > :55:09.time, we have got some pretty wonderful ministers are a wonderful
:55:10. > :55:15.Foreign Secretary, a wonderful Home Secretary. Those are pretty
:55:16. > :55:21.important jobs these days. I do think it is terribly difficult in
:55:22. > :55:25.this country, particularly with people coming in to an already
:55:26. > :55:33.crowded island. But you are still going to enjoy
:55:34. > :55:39.it, and life. And life. I get a hell of a kick out of
:55:40. > :55:45.talking to people I have never met before. And the police outside the
:55:46. > :55:50.house of lords are all my best friends. I probably shouldn't say
:55:51. > :55:56.that, probably get them all sacked. But I love them dearly. And they are
:55:57. > :55:59.nice to me. I like people who are nice to me, let us face it.
:56:00. > :56:01.Don't we all? Baroness Trumpington speaking to me
:56:02. > :56:12.earlier. Scotland being led by a madman?
:56:13. > :56:17.I thought, what an amazing person. What an amazing life she has led.
:56:18. > :56:23.Her views on Scottish politics are out of step with the realities and I
:56:24. > :56:28.am not sure the name-calling behoves anybody. But I think the interview
:56:29. > :56:35.was very nice, and you know her a lot better than I do. There are
:56:36. > :56:40.people there who have made a contribution in the House of Lords.
:56:41. > :56:44.Although their presence in a Chamber that is not elected doesn't seem to
:56:45. > :56:48.me to be the best way to do democracy. A very interesting
:56:49. > :56:53.person. Has she stuck two fingers up to you?
:56:54. > :56:59.I sat beside her on that bench and she made her views quite clear. She
:57:00. > :57:05.is in favour of legalising brothels, for example, in order to protect
:57:06. > :57:13.women. She has some radical views. She was talking about speaking her
:57:14. > :57:17.mind. She was a famous -- at a famous dinner where John Major fell
:57:18. > :57:22.at with Margaret Thatcher, and the attempt to call the atmosphere, she
:57:23. > :57:26.said, this is that chap, what you said if you minutes ago was
:57:27. > :57:31.brilliant. Margaret said, what did I say? She said, to be perfectly
:57:32. > :57:36.honest, I can't remember. Everyone fell about laughing. She has this
:57:37. > :57:42.honesty. A journalist rang her up about her book. They said, we would
:57:43. > :57:45.like you to comment. She said, I am not going to comment because I
:57:46. > :57:58.haven't read it and I didn't write it. Another teaser for you, what is
:57:59. > :58:04.Angela Merkel celebrating in this photo? Is it the prospect of John
:58:05. > :58:13.Paul Junker becoming president? It is Germany winning in the World Cup.
:58:14. > :58:23.There she is. With the whole team. Can you imagine any of the party
:58:24. > :58:29.leaders do that? Let us do the quiz now.
:58:30. > :58:32.What does the Education Secretary, Michael Gove, intend to ban
:58:33. > :59:10.Thanks to Michael Forsyth, Angus Robertson and all my guests today.
:59:11. > :59:16.to the cutting-edge science that's driving it,
:59:17. > :59:20.Horizon investigates one of the biggest mysteries