25/06/2014

:00:37. > :00:37.Morning folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:38. > :00:40.The jury in the phone-hacking trial has returned this morning to

:00:41. > :00:42.consider further charges against the former editor of the

:00:43. > :00:47.Mr Coulson, who became David Cameron's Director

:00:48. > :00:51.of Communications, was found guilty yesterday

:00:52. > :00:54.of conspiracy to hack phones while at the News of the World.

:00:55. > :00:58.The Prime Minister has apologised for his decision to hire him.

:00:59. > :01:03.No doubt Ed Miliband will be keen to capitalise on an awkward time

:01:04. > :01:10.We'll have all the action from PMQs live at midday.

:01:11. > :01:13.Jean Claude Juncker looks set to be anointed as the next President

:01:14. > :01:17.of the European Commission, much to the annoyance of David Cameron.

:01:18. > :01:22.But what will it mean for Britain's relationship with the EU?

:01:23. > :01:25.And, with young Britons heading to Iraq and Syria to fight alongside

:01:26. > :01:27.extremists, are we fighting the wrong battle

:01:28. > :01:39.Yes, an action-packed 90 minutes ahead of us which promises to be

:01:40. > :01:48.at least as exciting as England's 0-0 draw with Costa Rica.

:01:49. > :01:52.And we won't even pause for oranges at half time.

:01:53. > :01:55.With us today are two midfield generals of the political world:

:01:56. > :01:56.Owen Smith, Shadow Wales Secretary and

:01:57. > :02:03.First this morning let's turn our attention to

:02:04. > :02:10.The jury in the trial has returned to court this morning to consider

:02:11. > :02:14.more charges against former News of the World editor, Andy Coulson.

:02:15. > :02:15.Mr Coulson was found guilty yesterday

:02:16. > :02:22.The Prime Minister issued a profound apology for having hired Mr Coulson

:02:23. > :02:30.The former Chief Executive of News International, Rebekah Brooks, was

:02:31. > :02:37.For the latest let's speak to our correspondent, Robin Brant,

:02:38. > :02:42.who has been following the trial at the Old Bailey.

:02:43. > :02:49.He has been outside that Old Bailey court most of his life. Explain, the

:02:50. > :02:57.jury is coming back to consider what charges? Yes, they're in the room

:02:58. > :03:02.right now on the ninth day of deliberations. There are two remain

:03:03. > :03:07.counts on which they could not reach unanimous or majority verdicts

:03:08. > :03:15.yesterday. They're allegations of what is known as misconduct in a

:03:16. > :03:20.public office that is claims that Andy Coulson and Mr Goodman were

:03:21. > :03:24.involved in corrupt payments to police officers to buy numbers of

:03:25. > :03:28.people in the royal household. The prosecution said that happened in

:03:29. > :03:31.2003 and 2005. The jury couldn't reach a verdict yesterday and are

:03:32. > :03:36.continuing their deliberations today. Before they came back in,

:03:37. > :03:39.there was some legal argument. I'm restricted in what I can tell you

:03:40. > :03:44.about that. But I can tell you what the judge said to the jury as they

:03:45. > :03:48.sat in their seats. He apologise for keeping them waiting and reminded

:03:49. > :03:53.them he had talked about a wave of publicity that was about to hit them

:03:54. > :03:57.when they went home. You must ignore it, he said. Anything you saw or

:03:58. > :04:04.read does not matter who said it, but you must entirely ignore it. Now

:04:05. > :04:07.the Prime Minister made an apology yesterday, referring to Andy Coulson

:04:08. > :04:11.lying to him. Ed Milliband referred to Andy Coulson ooze a criminal. And

:04:12. > :04:16.the judge at some point in the day did urge restraint on anyone

:04:17. > :04:20.reacting to the verdicts here. These are partial verdicts. The trial is

:04:21. > :04:23.not over. And the judge is reminding the jury that whoever said

:04:24. > :04:30.something, whatever it is, they should ignore it. We will see, the

:04:31. > :04:34.jury will have to be superhuman to do that. Am I right in thinking the

:04:35. > :04:38.jury is divided orn these issues that have yet to be resolved, they

:04:39. > :04:43.could take some time before they come out with their verdict if they

:04:44. > :04:48.do come out with one, on the other charges? Yes. Speculating about the

:04:49. > :04:52.jury is not a sensible thing for somebody like me to do. But this

:04:53. > :04:57.trial will not be sitting tomorrow or the day after, because of a

:04:58. > :05:01.commitment of one of the jurors. If not today, they find themselves

:05:02. > :05:08.going into Monday and there may be some reluctance to do that. But they

:05:09. > :05:11.couldn't reach a unanimous verdict yesterday and couldn't reach a

:05:12. > :05:14.majority verdict either. So the deliberations continue today and we

:05:15. > :05:19.have been here for eight months and I don't think the judge or anyone

:05:20. > :05:25.will be in a hurry. Am I right anying when this is done and dusted,

:05:26. > :05:31.12 more trials on related matters are scheduled? The fact is this

:05:32. > :05:37.barely the start. This has been eight months here. The culmination

:05:38. > :05:44.of a police inquiry that began three and a half years ago looking at

:05:45. > :05:47.events that started in 1999. The first recorded hack by somebody

:05:48. > :05:52.working for the News of the World. What I can tell you this is just the

:05:53. > :05:57.start. There are two further sets of trials in relation to the hacking

:05:58. > :06:01.investigation which are scheduled to start after these proceedings and

:06:02. > :06:06.there are ongoing police investigations into further claims

:06:07. > :06:12.of hacking at the News of the World and at the Sunday Mirror and

:06:13. > :06:15.investigations into claims of computer hacking. So there are

:06:16. > :06:20.numerous people awaiting decisions from the Crown Prosecution Service

:06:21. > :06:23.about whether they will face any charges and people who didn't just

:06:24. > :06:27.work at the News of the World, but other organisations are involved as

:06:28. > :06:33.well. So the reality is and this is the reality, this is just the start.

:06:34. > :06:40.I hope that is a bed sit they're building behind you, it sounds like

:06:41. > :06:44.you will need it! Now we will talk more about the political

:06:45. > :06:44.significance of this with Nick Robinson before Prime Minister's

:06:45. > :06:53.questions. Now, David Cameron would probably

:06:54. > :06:56.not have chosen the city of Ypres in Belgium as the venue for the start

:06:57. > :06:59.of this week's European summit. 100 years ago it was the scene

:07:00. > :07:02.of fierce fighting between Allied In 2014 it appears David Cameron has

:07:03. > :07:06.been dealt a diplomatic blow by the German Chancellor Angela

:07:07. > :07:08.Merkel in his attempt to thwart the candidacy of Jean-Claude Juncker

:07:09. > :07:11.for the EU's top job. The summit will move to Brussels

:07:12. > :07:13.on Friday and David Cameron is determined to

:07:14. > :07:17.make other EU leaders vote on whether Mr Juncker should be the

:07:18. > :07:24.next president of the Commission. But what does this whole episode

:07:25. > :07:28.mean for Britain's relationship with the EU and Mr Cameron's much

:07:29. > :07:34.hyped renegotiation strategy? On Friday David Cameron will try to

:07:35. > :07:42.force a vote on the appointment of Mr Juncker

:07:43. > :07:44.which he says would politicise That's a fight he's unlikely to win

:07:45. > :07:49.and the European Parliament is expected to vote on Juncker's

:07:50. > :07:53.nomination in mid-July. In August each member state will

:07:54. > :07:57.put forward their nomination for Commissioner, but their portfolios

:07:58. > :08:01.won't be confirmed until the European Parliament votes on the

:08:02. > :08:07.Commission as a whole in October. If Cameron doesn't get his way

:08:08. > :08:10.on Juncker, Britain might expect concessions elsewhere on other big

:08:11. > :08:15.European issues - jobs for example, The Prime Minister will have to do

:08:16. > :08:21.better according to one The Polish foreign minister,

:08:22. > :08:28.Radoslaw Sikorski was secretly recorded this week slating the Prime

:08:29. > :08:32.Minister over incompetence in his And by the looks of it Mr Cameron's

:08:33. > :08:39.got a tough job. Details of the EU's strategic agenda

:08:40. > :08:42.were leaked this week and it doesn't make comfortable

:08:43. > :08:46.reading for those who want to Phrases such as developing

:08:47. > :09:01."the freedom of movement of EU his case for staying in the

:09:02. > :09:04.European Union if there's Let's speak now to Peter Spiegel

:09:05. > :09:17.who's the Brussels bureau chief Welcome to the programme. What is

:09:18. > :09:25.going to happen at this summit in Brussels? It is a mystery a week or

:09:26. > :09:33.so ago. But now we know there will be a vote and Britain is going to go

:09:34. > :09:38.down in flames. They may have one ally in the Hungarian Prime

:09:39. > :09:42.Minister. But even he is is a controversial figure. There have

:09:43. > :09:47.been overtures from other countries from the Jean-Claude Juncker camp

:09:48. > :09:51.and from Herman van Rompuy, the European council president, to see

:09:52. > :09:55.if there is room for a bargain with Downing Street. They have been told

:09:56. > :10:00.that there is no room to bargain. David Cameron wants a vote and he

:10:01. > :10:04.wants it on record either for or against Jean-Claude Juncker and he

:10:05. > :10:08.is probably going to lose. So it is over for David Cameron, but what

:10:09. > :10:13.about Jean-Claude Juncker? What is he like? I think he has been

:10:14. > :10:19.mischaracterised by Downing Street as an old school federalist. He is

:10:20. > :10:24.very pragmatic and does want for Med Rallsism within the -- federalism

:10:25. > :10:28.within the eurozone, but Downing Street have pushed for that and

:10:29. > :10:32.George Osborne said about the logic of the eurozone coming together. I

:10:33. > :10:41.think that had Britain played their cards better with junk. He is from a

:10:42. > :10:45.-- better with junk. He is -- with Jean-Claude Juncker. Even ten years

:10:46. > :10:50.ago he was seen as a British ally. But as playing the card against him

:10:51. > :10:54.and briefing against him, they have created a political enemy and a man

:10:55. > :10:59.who will take the position at the top of a powerful institution has

:11:00. > :11:05.influence on legislation that will affect wherein and -- Britain and

:11:06. > :11:11.turned him into an enemy. What about the reports about Jean-Claude

:11:12. > :11:17.Juncker's drinking, are they fair? Well, look, his successor as head of

:11:18. > :11:21.the euro group of the Dutch finance minister, has said that he drinks

:11:22. > :11:26.heavily in meetings. I have talked to many other officials who have

:11:27. > :11:29.been in meetings from mid level officials to former finance

:11:30. > :11:33.ministers and they acknowledge this. Jean-Claude Juncker has said that he

:11:34. > :11:39.does haven't a drinking problem. But it has come up in conversations that

:11:40. > :11:44.this is an issue and has led to some meetings lasting well into the

:11:45. > :11:48.night. That said, again people I have talked to I have asked have you

:11:49. > :11:52.ever seen sit affect his judgment, they all claim no. So it is an

:11:53. > :11:56.issue. It is something that has come up in conversations I have had

:11:57. > :12:02.unprompted. But everyone I hearsay it is not an issue that has affected

:12:03. > :12:05.his judgment. So the question wlis other states will feel this is

:12:06. > :12:09.important. Let's look to the consequences. You have spelled out

:12:10. > :12:14.that David Cameron didn't play his hard well in terms of negotiations.

:12:15. > :12:18.What will that mean in his campaign to renegotiate powers back from

:12:19. > :12:25.Brussels to London and in terms of calling the shots on who might be

:12:26. > :12:29.commissioner? I think those are two different issues. On the

:12:30. > :12:35.commissioner, that could be trouble. That what is Jean-Claude Juncker has

:12:36. > :12:38.power to do. If Britain nominates the commissioner, but Jean-Claude

:12:39. > :12:43.Juncker can decide the portfolio. There are some states that get good

:12:44. > :12:49.portfolios and Britain has always got a top one. It would be a self

:12:50. > :12:55.inflicted one if Jean-Claude Juncker gave the British commissioner the

:12:56. > :12:58.multilingual portfolio. On renegotiation it is more complicated

:12:59. > :13:06.the commission does not have a role in that, it is the member states and

:13:07. > :13:08.the pivotal figure is Angela Merkel. And does Merkel owe Cameron for

:13:09. > :13:28.having turned on her? Thank you. We mope to speak to to Charles

:13:29. > :13:36.Kennedy soon. Priti Patel would it be too Machiavellian to describe

:13:37. > :13:40.euro sceptics might relish junk as head of O'-- Jean-Claude Juncker as

:13:41. > :13:44.head of commission. No, David Cameron said it was a matter of

:13:45. > :13:49.principle and that is the right to have the choice and the vote. But

:13:50. > :13:55.the important thing is it sends out a message to the public. We have had

:13:56. > :13:57.the European elections and it is ensuring the European institutions,

:13:58. > :14:02.the commission, the relative individuals that will be occupying

:14:03. > :14:07.the important positions, understand the sentiment in the United Kingdom

:14:08. > :14:14.now on all matters associated with the EU. Does it suggest the European

:14:15. > :14:20.elite will ignore public opinion. It lice your party have gone down in

:14:21. > :14:25.flames with Michael Foot deciding to choose Tony Benn. It is another

:14:26. > :14:30.example of poor judgment by the Prime Minister. He is isolated in

:14:31. > :14:34.Europe and will go down in flames. That doesn't mean he is wrong. Well,

:14:35. > :14:39.he is wrong to pick a fight that he won't win if the result for that is

:14:40. > :14:53.that we are less able to influence reform of the EU. It is for the

:14:54. > :14:57.British government to make its views known... I'm not going to tell you

:14:58. > :15:01.if Juncker would be a good president because I don't know him. Our view

:15:02. > :15:06.would be it for the commission to determine and for the member states

:15:07. > :15:10.to vote. The crucial thing is, we need a reforming commission. We need

:15:11. > :15:17.a commission in which Britain's voices heard... Does Labour have no

:15:18. > :15:22.opinion? You have no opinion, correct? It is European reform. Al

:15:23. > :15:27.Rapinier and is straightforward. We need a reformed European Union,

:15:28. > :15:30.Britain to be at the heart of that union... But you can't tell us who

:15:31. > :15:38.you think should be president of the commission? You are absolutely not,

:15:39. > :15:45.you are denying the public the chance to have a referendum. I

:15:46. > :15:49.didn't ask you of the Prime Minister's opinion, I was asking the

:15:50. > :15:53.opinion of your Eurosceptic backbenchers. I was suggesting they

:15:54. > :15:58.may be happy with Mr Juncker because they can depict him. That's a

:15:59. > :16:03.sweeping generalisation. You don't speak on behalf of myself or on the

:16:04. > :16:10.behalf of the Conservative Party. Excuse me, I asked the question, I'd

:16:11. > :16:14.like an answer. The point about the Conservative Party is that

:16:15. > :16:19.effectively, we want to make sure that Britain's voice is heard in the

:16:20. > :16:21.reform agenda and also off the back of the European elections. The

:16:22. > :16:25.public have spoken out. To the credit of the prime minister, he is

:16:26. > :16:31.calling for less Europe and more Britain, and that is where he has

:16:32. > :16:34.taken his principle stands. I think we have established contact with

:16:35. > :16:42.Charles Kennedy. Can you hear me all right? Just. My mother was half deaf

:16:43. > :16:49.so I've got a loud voice as a result of that! Why shouldn't Jean-Claude

:16:50. > :16:54.Juncker be president of the commission? Well, I think that the

:16:55. > :16:55.Juncker be president of the commission? Well, I think that issue

:16:56. > :17:00.that the British government are putting forward, both conservatives

:17:01. > :17:03.and ourselves as Liberal Democrats, although there are different views

:17:04. > :17:05.on Europe, it's that the ultimate decision on this position should be

:17:06. > :17:08.with the Council of decision on this position should be

:17:09. > :17:11.with the ministers or the heads of government, whilst taking into

:17:12. > :17:16.account the sentiment as expressed by the European Parliament. Although

:17:17. > :17:20.David Cameron has made a big thing about being anti this particular

:17:21. > :17:28.candidate, I think the thing that unites us more, the two parties, is

:17:29. > :17:32.the principal, leaving aside the individual candidacy, of the way you

:17:33. > :17:33.go about the actionable choice. What does John Claude Juncker stand for

:17:34. > :17:36.in go about the actionable choice. What

:17:37. > :17:40.does John Claude Juncker Europe that the Liberal Democrats don't stand

:17:41. > :17:45.for in Europe? -- Jean-Claude Juncker. I don't think there's

:17:46. > :17:49.anything particularly fundamental. Certainly if you take it from my

:17:50. > :17:52.vantage point, I'm here at the Council of Europe, a different

:17:53. > :17:59.European institution, we won't confuse the viewers with that one.

:18:00. > :18:05.We've just been debating European federalism in the Council of Europe

:18:06. > :18:11.this morning. The classic British dilemma is encapsulated in this

:18:12. > :18:15.debate, it could equally be the European Union. Federalism over here

:18:16. > :18:19.means power decentralised, devolved, closer to communities. In British

:18:20. > :18:27.politics and the British media, federalism means some kind of super

:18:28. > :18:31.centralised Europe superstate based on Brussels. The two are like ships

:18:32. > :18:36.passing in the night. This candidate, in standing for

:18:37. > :18:40.federalism, stands for continental federalism, he doesn't stand for the

:18:41. > :18:44.caricature of it that unfortunately disfigures British reporting and

:18:45. > :18:48.British politics. All that may be true, so I ask you again. What is

:18:49. > :18:56.the difference in the Lib Dem approach to Europe and Mr Juncker's

:18:57. > :19:01.approach? I think there is not a fundamental difference in terms of

:19:02. > :19:07.the long-term objective that he would subscribe to. I think the

:19:08. > :19:12.short-term obstacle, obviously, not dissimilar to other EU member states

:19:13. > :19:16.at the moment, if you look at the composition of the new European

:19:17. > :19:20.Parliament that is divided, it's got a very Eurosceptic presents now.

:19:21. > :19:25.We've got to be alert to taking people with us, which has been the

:19:26. > :19:29.big criticism not just of recent years but, frankly, the 30 years

:19:30. > :19:33.I've been in the House of Commons, that the elite, the pro-European

:19:34. > :19:38.elite politicians, civil servants, academics, industrialists and

:19:39. > :19:41.others, happened spent enough time explaining and persuading and have

:19:42. > :19:47.just assumed that it is a fringe element which Eurosceptics have or

:19:48. > :19:58.anti-Europe. That has come, to put it crudely, to buy this on the

:19:59. > :20:05.proverbial bomb. Sorry, let me interrupt you. Mr Juncker is part of

:20:06. > :20:09.the European elite. Your leader is part of the European elite. Mr

:20:10. > :20:13.Juncker believes in an ever closer union. The Lib Dems believe in an

:20:14. > :20:17.ever closer union. Mr Juncker believes in a particular kind of

:20:18. > :20:21.federalism that you've just said is the Lib Dem's kind of federalism.

:20:22. > :20:26.I'm struggling to find out what he stands for that you don't. I think

:20:27. > :20:31.Nick Clegg has made clear, and you are right that Nick is

:20:32. > :20:35.quintessential European elite in the Thameside been outlining, without

:20:36. > :20:39.doubt, family wise as well as political wise. I would have to

:20:40. > :20:44.plead guilty to that in a Celtic sense as well. The point that Nick

:20:45. > :20:51.has been at pains to stress is the methodology by which the candidate

:20:52. > :20:55.gains acceptance and he's not happy with that. I think the end

:20:56. > :21:01.objectives longer term that we espouse as British Liberal Democrats

:21:02. > :21:06.are pro-European, as this candidate would espouse and aspire towards,

:21:07. > :21:10.you are quite right. But I think we are a long way from that in

:21:11. > :21:14.Britain, and more time has got to be spent from the top of the European

:21:15. > :21:18.Commission on the persuasion elements, rather than just the big

:21:19. > :21:21.picture element. I think the worry is that this juncture, on the back

:21:22. > :21:26.of the European results we just had, on the back of all the difficulties

:21:27. > :21:29.that Europe is facing, particularly Britain's role within Europe, with a

:21:30. > :21:34.possible referendum on a couple of years time, that this would be

:21:35. > :21:38.trying to run before we could walk, in terms of the argument in domestic

:21:39. > :21:42.British politics. I think that is the difference in a nutshell. We

:21:43. > :21:51.will leave it there. Thanks for struggling through, I know it's been

:21:52. > :21:53.a bad audio connection. That may be popular or unpopular with the

:21:54. > :21:56.British people but it has the benefit of honesty. You know where

:21:57. > :22:01.the Lib Dems stand on this. We don't know where you stand on these

:22:02. > :22:05.matters. I don't think that's true at all. We don't think there is any

:22:06. > :22:10.point of us bellowing fruitlessly from the sidelines of Europe in

:22:11. > :22:14.particular playing to the gallery of Eurosceptics in the Tory party, if

:22:15. > :22:18.what we want, and we agree with the Conservatives, if what we want is

:22:19. > :22:24.reform of the European Union. If we want focus on jobs... Who would be

:22:25. > :22:29.the best reforming president? I don't think there is any point in my

:22:30. > :22:36.suggesting names. People will be amazed because you are pretty good

:22:37. > :22:40.at giving names for everybody else. I'm not asking you to speak for

:22:41. > :22:45.Wales. You are here to represent Labour. I'm asking for their view

:22:46. > :22:49.but you won't. Juncker might be a man who could give us reform, maybe

:22:50. > :22:55.somebody else. But at the moment, we are going to be further isolated and

:22:56. > :23:00.less able to implement a reform agenda. Doesn't get as far. What I

:23:01. > :23:04.want to ask you is, is there any chance you think you could convince

:23:05. > :23:09.the Lib Dems to agree with you on an in-out referendum? That I don't

:23:10. > :23:15.know, to be perfectly frank and honest. There's been talk Mr Clegg

:23:16. > :23:18.might be moving that way. Possibly discussions are taking place on

:23:19. > :23:22.that, I'm sure that the something they will be discussing. The reality

:23:23. > :23:25.is, irrespective of our political parties, is that the British public

:23:26. > :23:28.at large are taking place on that, I'm sure that the something they

:23:29. > :23:30.will be discussing. The reality is, irrespective of our political

:23:31. > :23:33.parties, is that the British public at large I think they do look to

:23:34. > :23:36.politicians now to get a backbone and say, enough is enough, and stand

:23:37. > :23:40.up for Britain in Europe. The problem we have had over the last

:23:41. > :23:44.decade, over a decade, is that they have seen the British political

:23:45. > :23:48.elite say, actually, we know best, we will make all the decisions and

:23:49. > :23:52.not pick the rounds with the European Union. It is an important

:23:53. > :23:58.voice, an important principle in terms of the point we making. Ikea

:23:59. > :24:04.what you are saying. Is there any chance that Labour, before the

:24:05. > :24:09.election, may come out for an in-out referendum on membership? No, I

:24:10. > :24:18.think our position is clear. I don't see why we should change that. That

:24:19. > :24:19.was on behalf of the Labour Party, Wales and the Labour Party.

:24:20. > :24:23.Synonymous, as you know. Now, if you're an England football

:24:24. > :24:26.fan you may be feeling slightly dejected this morning

:24:27. > :24:28.as you watch Roy Hodgson and his bunch of losers board their plane in

:24:29. > :24:32.Rio ready for the long flight home. Try as they might, they couldn't

:24:33. > :24:35.get their hands on the Cup that Still, at least they'll have plenty

:24:36. > :24:39.of time to watch the Daily Politics. And no one told them they didn't

:24:40. > :24:48.have to go all the way to Brazil to get the cup

:24:49. > :24:52.everyone wants - they just had to know their political history and

:24:53. > :24:56.have access to an email address. Yes, I'm talking about our very own

:24:57. > :25:01.Jules Rimet, the Daily Politics mug, which you can raise above your head

:25:02. > :25:05.in celebration, knowing you've We'll remind you how to enter

:25:06. > :25:42.in a minute, but let's see if you # I'm just a soul whose intentions

:25:43. > :25:50.are good. I do solemnly swear that you will

:25:51. > :26:01.faithfully execute. # People try to put us down, talking

:26:02. > :26:06.about my generation. # I'm a man of means by no means.

:26:07. > :26:26.# King of the road. # The minute you're gone I cried.

:26:27. > :26:30.# The minute you're gone I die. # Keep on running.

:26:31. > :26:36.# Keep on hiding. # One fine day I'm going to be the

:26:37. > :26:43.# One fine day I'm going to be the one to make you understand.

:26:44. > :26:52.# Oh, yeah, I'm going to be To be in with a chance of winning

:26:53. > :26:55.a Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz email

:26:56. > :26:58.address - that's dpquiz@bbc.co.uk. And you can see the full terms

:26:59. > :27:01.and conditions for Guess The Year on our website - that's

:27:02. > :27:08.bbc.co.uk/ dailypolitics. It's coming up to midday here,

:27:09. > :27:11.just take a look at Big Ben, Yes, Prime Minister's

:27:12. > :27:22.Questions is on its way. Nick Robinson is already here. The

:27:23. > :27:25.Prime Minister said he would have to make a full apology if Mr Coulson

:27:26. > :27:31.went down on the hacking charge, he's been found guilty of that. He

:27:32. > :27:35.did it, but it's not the end of the story. It isn't. It will be

:27:36. > :27:38.interesting to see whether he repeats that and where Ed Miliband

:27:39. > :27:41.pushes him. There is speculation about whether they would be allowed

:27:42. > :27:48.to, because the speaker has been taking legal advice on what can and

:27:49. > :27:50.can't be said. The court case is still ongoing, there are still

:27:51. > :27:54.charges on which the jury had not decided on their verdict. A few

:27:55. > :27:58.minutes ago, we got the speaker's advice on that. People are allowed

:27:59. > :28:01.to reflect calls and has been convicted, they are not allowed to

:28:02. > :28:06.speculate on what the sentence might be and they certainly can't refer to

:28:07. > :28:10.the cases that I yet unsettled. I think Ed Miliband can pretty much

:28:11. > :28:14.ask everything he wanted to ask because his target is not Andy

:28:15. > :28:19.Coulson, his target is David Cameron. The target there is, why

:28:20. > :28:24.did you appoint this man, didn't you know at the time that they could be

:28:25. > :28:28.problems going down the road? People have seen it is significant that he

:28:29. > :28:33.didn't go what is called a developed vetting process that others had gone

:28:34. > :28:40.through. Why did he not go down that road, why was he not given that

:28:41. > :28:44.betting? Secondly, would it have found out anything? Good question.

:28:45. > :28:48.The Prime Minister has repeated the line that the decision on what level

:28:49. > :28:52.of vetting, and people do get different levels, was taken up by

:28:53. > :28:56.the politicians and by the civil servants. Labour have always

:28:57. > :29:00.regarded it and the Bardi Anne have always regarded it as pretty

:29:01. > :29:04.suspicious because other people did have the top level of vetting but

:29:05. > :29:08.Coulson did not. Gus O'Donnell used to be the top civil servant in the

:29:09. > :29:11.land and he told the inquiry that this was basically his decision. He

:29:12. > :29:18.argued he was avoiding wasting money, it was time-consuming. The

:29:19. > :29:21.civil servants don't want to block somebody an incoming Prime Minister

:29:22. > :29:25.is going to happen if they've got a good reason to do so. It was known

:29:26. > :29:29.that Andy Coulson was involved in controversy, this was not something

:29:30. > :29:33.that required some spook to discover, it was out there in the

:29:34. > :29:36.public domain. So why go through a process that is going to produce an

:29:37. > :29:40.answer that the Prime Minister might not like? Would it have got the

:29:41. > :29:44.answer... It couldn't have revealed the hacking, because it took a

:29:45. > :29:48.police investigation to do that. It might have revealed other questions

:29:49. > :29:52.about Mr Coulson. Labour's argument is likely to be, at least it would

:29:53. > :29:56.have given you the opportunity to investigate some of these things.

:29:57. > :29:59.The Prime Minister has said he gave someone a second chance and it

:30:00. > :30:04.didn't work out. Isn't the weakest part of his argument is that there

:30:05. > :30:09.were a number of people at the time who warned him this was not a

:30:10. > :30:12.sensible road to go down? One moment is hiring him in the first place. He

:30:13. > :30:17.could then say, whether you think it's wise or not, look, there was

:30:18. > :30:22.one case, one rogue reporter, I gave him a second chance. I don't think

:30:23. > :30:29.Cameron is in real difficulty on that. Where he is in difficulty is

:30:30. > :30:32.giving a taxpayer-funded job... After the front page of the

:30:33. > :30:36.Guardian, after the front page of the New York Times, after it has

:30:37. > :30:41.been revealed it is clearly not one rogue reporter, this is widespread

:30:42. > :30:44.hacking going on. It's at that point that people are entitled to say, and

:30:45. > :30:48.senior Conservatives at the time did, the people who went into the

:30:49. > :30:53.coalition with David Cameron did and clearly, the Labour Party did, to

:30:54. > :30:57.say, you know, we can't prove his guilt, we don't know that, but this

:30:58. > :31:01.is not a sensible appointment. Underlining all this, and I'm sure

:31:02. > :31:05.Ed Miliband will want to get onto this, is motive. Was this because

:31:06. > :31:10.Andy Coulson was a friend, was it because he was good at his job? Both

:31:11. > :31:13.things are true, or was because he was scared of falling out with the

:31:14. > :31:16.Murdoch empire. There was a sense that this was a link that had been

:31:17. > :31:21.formed with the most powerful media organisation the land, you don't

:31:22. > :31:26.want to let it go. He was appointed in the summer of 2007, but it looked

:31:27. > :31:31.like Gordon Brown could walk on water and the primacy panicked. The

:31:32. > :31:36.leader of the opposition. He had panicked. He had said to begin with

:31:37. > :31:39.you wouldn't touch the Murdoch press. He then didn't even have any

:31:40. > :31:45.friends in the Tory press. He panicked and went for Mr Coulson and

:31:46. > :31:49.began to suck up to Mr Murdoch. Exactly that. He took one view, it

:31:50. > :31:57.wasn't working for him, he feared defeat. We were talking about a snap

:31:58. > :32:01.election. At that stage exactly right, Andrew. It's all right this

:32:02. > :32:05.principle of not being in with the press, but you need them. He hired

:32:06. > :32:09.Andy Coulson like a shot when he became available, having resigned

:32:10. > :32:12.from the News of the World. He then did take the view that he performed

:32:13. > :32:16.his job well, he was trustworthy, he was a friend, the civil servants

:32:17. > :32:17.regarded him and were much more comfortable with than Alistair

:32:18. > :32:39.Campbell. I shall have further such meetings

:32:40. > :32:41.today. Andy Coulson 's conviction shows that the Parliamentary inquiry

:32:42. > :32:45.today. Andy Coulson 's conviction shows that the Parliamentary into

:32:46. > :32:51.phone hacking was consistently misled by him and others. Does the

:32:52. > :32:55.Prime Minister agree with me that our first concern should be to see

:32:56. > :33:00.redress for the victims of phone hacking and to uphold the democratic

:33:01. > :33:04.principle of a free press? I think my honourable friend is right, the

:33:05. > :33:10.first thing is we should remember the victims. People whoed that their

:33:11. > :33:15.privacy wrecked and ensure that cannot happen again. And we must

:33:16. > :33:19.cherish a free and vibrant press. I said yesterday and I say again, I

:33:20. > :33:23.take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did so on

:33:24. > :33:28.the basis of assurances that I received, but also the Select

:33:29. > :33:32.Committee received. I said if the assurances were wrong, I would

:33:33. > :33:38.apologise fully and frankly to this House and I do so again today from

:33:39. > :33:44.this dispatch box. I am sorry. This was the wrong decision. But I can it

:33:45. > :33:48.-- but I think it is right we have had a public inquiry and proper

:33:49. > :34:01.investigations. Yesterday showed that no one is above the law in our

:34:02. > :34:06.country. THE SPEAKER: Ed Milliband. Today we know that for four year the

:34:07. > :34:12.Prime Minister's hand picked closest adviceor was a criminal. And brought

:34:13. > :34:17.disgrace to Downing Street. We now also know that the Prime Minister

:34:18. > :34:24.willfully ignored multiple warnings about him. On the 8th July 2009, the

:34:25. > :34:28.Guardian published evidence of phone hacking on an industrial scale while

:34:29. > :34:34.Andy Coulson was editor of the News of the World. At that time, Andy

:34:35. > :34:40.Coulson was his director or of communication. What action did he

:34:41. > :34:45.take? As I said, the assurances I sought and received were the same

:34:46. > :34:51.assurances received by the Press Complaints Commission, by the Select

:34:52. > :35:00.Committee and the police. They were all gone into by the Leveson inquiry

:35:01. > :35:04.and an inquiry he supported. He talks about warnings. On the warning

:35:05. > :35:09.from the Guardian, Leveson said this, the editor of the Guardian did

:35:10. > :35:13.not raise the issue with David Cameron at meetings in the month

:35:14. > :35:20.after the article was published and the following year. He says this,

:35:21. > :35:26.there can be no criticism of David Cameron for not raising the issue.

:35:27. > :35:29.We had an exhaustive inquiry. I know he didn't like the result

:35:30. > :35:35.We had an exhaustive inquiry. I know inquiry, but he should accept it. Mr

:35:36. > :35:40.Speaker, that is a long-winded of saying when it came to Andy Coulson

:35:41. > :35:48.he just didn't want to know the evidence. The first warning ignored.

:35:49. > :35:54.Let's move on the to May 2010. The Deputy Prime Minister warned him in

:35:55. > :36:00.person about his deep concerns about Andy Coulson. So he was warned by

:36:01. > :36:06.his deputy. What action did he take? Every single one of these issues was

:36:07. > :36:13.dealt with by the Leveson inquiry. THE SPEAKER: Order. Mr Lucas, calm

:36:14. > :36:18.yourself. I'm trying to offer you on a weekly basis their pew tick

:36:19. > :36:25.guidance. But there is a long way to go. -- therapeutic. Every issue was

:36:26. > :36:30.dealt with by the Leveson inquiry. The terms of reference of the

:36:31. > :36:35.inquiry were agreed by the honourable gentleman and they

:36:36. > :36:39.included, the extent to which there was a failure to act on previous

:36:40. > :36:43.warnings about media misconduct. That is what Leveson looked into. He

:36:44. > :36:48.looked into all of these questions about the warnings I was given and

:36:49. > :36:53.the response I gave and he made no criticism of my conduct. I know that

:36:54. > :36:58.the honourable gentleman was disappointed by the Leveson inquiry,

:36:59. > :37:05.but he called for it and it took place and he should heed what it

:37:06. > :37:10.said. No, Mr Speaker. This is about his character, his judgment, and the

:37:11. > :37:16.warnings he ignored, including from the Deputy Prime Minister. Warning

:37:17. > :37:21.two ignored. In September 2010, the New York Times published a

:37:22. > :37:25.front-page investigation detailing Andy Coulson's knowledge of phone

:37:26. > :37:29.hacking, including one former editor who said I have been to dozens of

:37:30. > :37:36.meetings with Andy when the subject came up. What action did he take?

:37:37. > :37:42.All of these issues, every warning, was dealt with by Leveson. An

:37:43. > :37:48.inquiry he called for. And I know he can't bear it, but Leveson made no

:37:49. > :37:53.criticism of my conduct in this regard whatsoever. You cannot call

:37:54. > :37:57.for a judge-led inquiry, participate in a judge-led inquiry, write the

:37:58. > :38:03.terms of reference of the inquiry and then ignore what it has to say.

:38:04. > :38:09.I have to say, all of the questions he is rising are not new. They're

:38:10. > :38:13.the questions dealt with by the Leveson I inquiry. THE SPEAKER: The

:38:14. > :38:20.Prime Minister is offering an answer and it must be heard. Order. It must

:38:21. > :38:26.be heard by the House. Both sides must be heard by the House and that

:38:27. > :38:30.will happen, as it always does, however long this has to be run.

:38:31. > :38:36.About that let us be clear. The Prime Minister. I can understand why

:38:37. > :38:40.he doesn't want to listen to an eight-month long inquiry that cost

:38:41. > :38:44.?5 million that interviewed people under oath that was led by a judge,

:38:45. > :38:51.but that what is he asked for and that is what is delivered and did

:38:52. > :39:01.not criticise my conduct. So he should accept the inquiry that he

:39:02. > :39:06.supported. No answer... No answer on any of the questions. No answer why

:39:07. > :39:10.he didn't act on the Guardian or on the Deputy Prime Minister no, answer

:39:11. > :39:17.why he didn't act on the New York Times. Let's come back to issue of

:39:18. > :39:22.vetting. Amidst the warnings, the least he should... THE SPEAKER:

:39:23. > :39:28.Order. There is the usual ranting from the usual suspects. Be quiet or

:39:29. > :39:35.if you can't be quiet, leave the chamber. We can manage without you.

:39:36. > :39:40.Ed Milliband. Let's come to vetting. Amid the warnings the least he

:39:41. > :39:47.should have done is insisted that Andy Coulson should have the highest

:39:48. > :39:51.level of security vetting, as his six predecessors over 14 years had

:39:52. > :40:00.had. Why tint he -- why didn't he insist on it. Leveson looked into

:40:01. > :40:07.this issue. This what is he found. This is what he found. Leveson

:40:08. > :40:13.conclubtded -- concluded this, the level of security clearance was not

:40:14. > :40:21.the decision of Mr Cameron or Mr Cowlson, but the decision of the

:40:22. > :40:30.civil service. Those are the correct procedures. Those are the correct

:40:31. > :40:33.procedures. But if the leader of the opposition's contention is that

:40:34. > :40:38.direct vetting would have got to the bottom of Andy Coulson's conduct at

:40:39. > :40:46.the News of the World, then he should be clear about what Leveson

:40:47. > :40:51.found. He found this. The process of considering Andy Coulson for DV

:40:52. > :40:56.status would not have involved a detailed investigation of phone

:40:57. > :41:00.hacking at the News of the World. That undermined the entire case that

:41:01. > :41:05.Labour have been trying to make today. I know you don't agree with

:41:06. > :41:10.it. I know he is so desperate not to talk about the economy, not to talk

:41:11. > :41:14.about unemployment, not to talk about the deficit, but you can't

:41:15. > :41:25.rerun an inquiry that has already taken place. Now it is clear from

:41:26. > :41:31.the Prime Minister, I will tell tell them what is weak, it is failing to

:41:32. > :41:34.stand up for the Rhining things -- the right things. We know the rule

:41:35. > :41:40.of the Prime Minister is the buck doesn't stop here and he blames the

:41:41. > :41:47.civil service. Now, on the civil service, can he assure... THE

:41:48. > :41:52.SPEAKER: Sometimes one has to repeat a thing. If there is quiet. We will

:41:53. > :41:55.continue. If people try to shout other people down, against the

:41:56. > :41:59.principles of British democracy, they will be stopped in their

:42:00. > :42:04.tracks. It is very simple and I would have thought pretty clear. Ed

:42:05. > :42:12.Milliband. On the civil service can he assure the House at no time does

:42:13. > :42:17.Sir Gus O'Donnell or any senior servant raise concerns about hiring

:42:18. > :42:22.Andy Coulson. Gus O'Donnell has made that clear in the evidence to the

:42:23. > :42:27.inquiry and on the issue of vetting, he was clear that the decision about

:42:28. > :42:35.vetting is for permanent Secretary at No 10, sur Jeremy Haywood, who

:42:36. > :42:37.served Labour governments as well as coalition governments led by a

:42:38. > :42:41.Conservative Prime Minister. What the honourable gentleman is trying

:42:42. > :42:47.to do is go through all of the old questions that were answered by the

:42:48. > :42:52.Leveson inquiry, he didn't like the answer, because he wanted to prove

:42:53. > :42:57.some cooked up conspiracy between the Conservatives and News of the

:42:58. > :43:02.World. He cannot manage to do it because the Leveson inquiry cannot

:43:03. > :43:06.find it. He asked what is weak. I will tell you what is weak,

:43:07. > :43:13.attacking Murdoch and standing up with a copy of the Sun, only to

:43:14. > :43:29.apologise a dpu hours later -- a few hours later. Mr Speaker, the Prime

:43:30. > :43:32.Minister said that Sir Gus O'Donnell was asked whether he raised concerns

:43:33. > :43:37.with him or his office about Andy Coulson. He was not asked that

:43:38. > :43:46.question at the Leveson inquiry. There is an important question which

:43:47. > :43:51.the country will won't answered whether senior civil servants raised

:43:52. > :43:58.concerns about Andy Coulson. The truth is the charge against the

:43:59. > :44:04.Prime Minister is not one of ignorance, but wilful negligence. At

:44:05. > :44:07.the heart of this are the thousands of innocent victims of phone hacking

:44:08. > :44:12.he didn't stand up. He will be remembered as the first occupant of

:44:13. > :44:19.his office who brought a criminal into the heart of Downing Street. He

:44:20. > :44:24.brought up the issue of the warning from the Guardian. I disproved him

:44:25. > :44:29.using the evidence. He brought up the idea of direct vetting, I have

:44:30. > :44:34.disproved him by using the evidence. He cannot bear the the fact that the

:44:35. > :44:40.inquiry he hoped would pin the blame on me found that I had behaved

:44:41. > :44:47.correctly. That is the case. All of the issues were examined, all the

:44:48. > :44:54.issues were examined by Leveson. If he wants to debate the calls we make

:44:55. > :44:59.and the leadership we give, it is that that I'm happy to do. It is

:45:00. > :45:05.leadership that has got the economy moving and is putting Britain back

:45:06. > :45:08.to work. And it is the total absence of leadership from the Labour Party

:45:09. > :45:36.that shows they have nothing to say about

:45:37. > :45:46.After many months of vehement anti-Iranian rhetoric from the

:45:47. > :45:52.government and now the sudden change of heart, does the Prime Minister

:45:53. > :45:58.believed that the maxim, my enemy's enemy is my friend, trumps all else?

:45:59. > :46:01.I don't believe that. We should judge every regime and organisation

:46:02. > :46:05.on its commitment to human rights, the rule of law and building a

:46:06. > :46:10.realistic societies. We should engage with the Iranians but, as

:46:11. > :46:13.I've said, with a very clear eye and a hard heart. We shouldn't forget

:46:14. > :46:17.what happened to our embassy, we shouldn't forget the things they are

:46:18. > :46:20.responsible for around the world, but we should start to build a

:46:21. > :46:27.dialogue with them in the way the Foreign Secretary has set out. On

:46:28. > :46:33.Friday, my honourable friend the member for South Basildon, East

:46:34. > :46:38.Thurrock and myself jumped from a plane, 13,000 feet over the

:46:39. > :46:46.Yorkshire countryside. Fortunately we had a parachute. And training

:46:47. > :46:51.from the Tiger Army parachute display team. As we approach Armed

:46:52. > :46:58.Forces Day, will the Prime Minister paid tribute to our Armed Forces and

:46:59. > :47:03.those charities and the generosity of the British people, who do so

:47:04. > :47:08.much to support those who give such commitment to Queen and country, and

:47:09. > :47:11.will he reinforce the fact that this Parliament will never ever under

:47:12. > :47:16.estimate the contribution of the Armed Forces of this country? I

:47:17. > :47:21.absolutely support what he has said and commend him for jumping out of

:47:22. > :47:25.an aeroplane with a parachute. Not only should we commend our Armed

:47:26. > :47:28.Forces, but it's right that we put the Armed Forces common and --

:47:29. > :47:33.covenant, the military covenant, into the law of the land. I think

:47:34. > :47:37.Armed Forces Day is an important part of our calendar. On remembrance

:47:38. > :47:40.Sunday we remember those who have served and fallen. In Armed Forces

:47:41. > :47:43.Day it is an opportunity to celebrate all of those who served

:47:44. > :47:46.today, thank them and their families, to celebrate the values

:47:47. > :47:51.they live by and all that they bring to our country. Does the Prime

:47:52. > :47:59.Minister realise he has made history by employing a crook at Number Ten?

:48:00. > :48:03.I've given a very full answer to this. Obviously, I regret the

:48:04. > :48:07.decision to employ Andy Coulson on the basis of the assurances I was

:48:08. > :48:13.given. But what I would say is no one made any complaints about the

:48:14. > :48:17.conduct of Andy Coulson why'd he was at Number Ten. And that does stand

:48:18. > :48:24.in quite a contrast to the conduct of Damian McBride, the conduct of

:48:25. > :48:28.Joe Moore, to the conduct of Alistair Campbell. What we had from

:48:29. > :48:37.the previous government was dodgy dossiers, burying bad news and

:48:38. > :48:41.smearing Members of Parliament. The firefighters dispute continues with

:48:42. > :48:48.some worrying consequences and no sign at present of a resolution. But

:48:49. > :48:51.back before Easter, DC LG ministers got the government actuaries to cost

:48:52. > :48:55.a set of proposals that the Fire Brigades Union was ready to put to

:48:56. > :48:58.its members. Will the Prime Minister look at that proposal even now and

:48:59. > :49:04.consider whether it might still have some useful part to play in bringing

:49:05. > :49:09.an end to this dispute? I'm very happy to look at what he suggests. I

:49:10. > :49:11.know that the minister in the local government department, the

:49:12. > :49:14.honourable member for great Yarmouth, has been working extremely

:49:15. > :49:20.hard on this issue. It's important we listen to what the firefighters

:49:21. > :49:25.say but, at the same time, recognise that the pensions they have access

:49:26. > :49:28.to would actually require the building of a ?500,000 pot for

:49:29. > :49:31.anyone else in our country. We should bear that in mind and the

:49:32. > :49:40.contribution of the taxpayer at the same time. Does the prime Minister

:49:41. > :49:44.accept that his death at 60 proves that Gerry Conlon lost more than 15

:49:45. > :49:52.terrible years in prison and the anguish of his father's torment, due

:49:53. > :49:56.to the injustice from this state? As well as his wider campaigning

:49:57. > :50:02.against injustice, there were two particular issues that matter to him

:50:03. > :50:06.in recent years. One is the need for proper quality mental health

:50:07. > :50:09.services for those who suffered miscarriages of justice. Secondly,

:50:10. > :50:12.which in particular I would like the Prime Minister to address,

:50:13. > :50:15.notwithstanding the egregious subdivide your seal that has been

:50:16. > :50:21.put on the Guildford and other papers, he was recently promised

:50:22. > :50:26.access to the archives. It was his dying wish that that would be

:50:27. > :50:30.honoured through the people he wanted... Will he ensure that the

:50:31. > :50:35.dying wish of an innocent man is honoured? I'm grateful to him for

:50:36. > :50:38.raising wish and the way in which he does it, it's hard to think what 15

:50:39. > :50:43.years in prison when you are innocent of a crime that you've been

:50:44. > :50:46.convicted for would do to somebody. I think it is absolutely right that

:50:47. > :50:52.the previous prime Minister apologises fulsome, as he did when

:50:53. > :50:55.this came to pass. I'm very happy to look at the specific request about

:50:56. > :50:58.the records at the specific request about the record that queue, which

:50:59. > :51:03.hasn't been put to me before, and contact the honourable gentleman

:51:04. > :51:10.about that issue. And employment in North Northamptonshire is down by a

:51:11. > :51:16.third. Last week, this conservative led government approved the Rushden

:51:17. > :51:21.Lakes development. 2000 new jobs, major retail park and a fantastic

:51:22. > :51:25.leisure facility. Could the prime Minister explain how we have that

:51:26. > :51:32.success? Could be down to his long-term economic plan? I'm

:51:33. > :51:35.grateful to him for detailing what is happening in Northamptonshire, in

:51:36. > :51:40.terms of the extra jobs and development. I think what it proves

:51:41. > :51:43.is we do have an entrepreneurial economy, particularly in

:51:44. > :51:46.Northamptonshire, but we do need key developments to go ahead to help

:51:47. > :51:59.unlock the jobs, growth and investment we need for our country.

:52:00. > :52:02.The Prime Minister said yesterday that he was just giving Andy calls

:52:03. > :52:06.and a second chance. That means that he knew there was a first offence.

:52:07. > :52:10.He knew from the very beginning that he was taking a criminal into

:52:11. > :52:14.Downing Street. Then he refused to sack him and yesterday, and again

:52:15. > :52:18.today, he was busy praising Andy Coulson. What message does that send

:52:19. > :52:25.to the victims? Isn't the truth of the matter that he is only sorry

:52:26. > :52:34.because he got caught? The honourable gentleman has got it

:52:35. > :52:38.wrong time and time again. What I said about giving someone a second

:52:39. > :52:42.chance is because the individual in question had resigned as the editor

:52:43. > :52:45.of the News of the World because of what had happened. He said in this

:52:46. > :52:50.House of Commons, there was no doubt there was a deal secured between the

:52:51. > :52:52.Conservative Party and News International before the general

:52:53. > :52:56.election. That is what he said, after eight months of an inquiry,

:52:57. > :53:04.that was found to be complete and utter rubbish. And yet have we ever

:53:05. > :53:10.heard one word of reduction from the honourable gentleman? Not a word!

:53:11. > :53:14.May I congratulate my right honourable friend on his judgment

:53:15. > :53:17.and resolution in standing up for Britain's national interest over the

:53:18. > :53:25.question of the presidency of the EU commission. And can I put it to him

:53:26. > :53:30.that he is in June with the concerns of the public right across Europe,

:53:31. > :53:37.unlike so many of our continental partners? It's important to stand up

:53:38. > :53:40.and speak for what you believe in. I believe that the European Commission

:53:41. > :53:44.president should be chosen by the elected heads of government and

:53:45. > :53:48.state on the European Council. That is the right approach. It is wrong

:53:49. > :53:53.to sign up to this power grab by the parties of Europe and the European

:53:54. > :53:55.Parliament. I also think it's important that the people involved

:53:56. > :53:59.understand that we need reform in Europe. It doesn't matter how hard I

:54:00. > :54:06.have to push this case, I will take it all the way to the end. Mr

:54:07. > :54:11.Speaker, they have been to breakfast with Boris, had tea at Number Ten

:54:12. > :54:15.and are dancing with the Business Secretary, but still businesses in

:54:16. > :54:20.Shoreditch and the city cannot get superfast broadband. This is now a

:54:21. > :54:25.national embarrassment. What is the prime minister going to do? We have

:54:26. > :54:28.put a huge amount of money into expanding superfast broadband. We

:54:29. > :54:33.are now doing better than other European countries in terms of the

:54:34. > :54:42.roll-out of our network and the speeds that are available. The

:54:43. > :54:44.culture secretary is working very hard to deal with those areas of the

:54:45. > :54:47.country that don't have superfast broadband. I will make sure he puts

:54:48. > :54:51.Hackney firmly on his list. The Prime Minister recruited Andy

:54:52. > :54:54.Coulson in 2007. In 2009, Nick Davies from the Guardian came to the

:54:55. > :54:57.select committee and said, I have never seen a piece of paper that

:54:58. > :55:02.directly links Andy Coulson to any of the activity we are discussing.

:55:03. > :55:06.In February 2010, the select committee on which I serve concluded

:55:07. > :55:10.with all party support, we have seen no evidence that Andy Coulson you

:55:11. > :55:13.that phone hacking was taking place. Would the Prime Minister agree with

:55:14. > :55:18.me that those who now claim they knew he was in 2007, which seems to

:55:19. > :55:21.include the leader of the opposition, should explain why they

:55:22. > :55:25.didn't pass that information on to the police or the select committee,

:55:26. > :55:28.or are they trying to rewrite history to deflect attention from

:55:29. > :55:37.their own chronic leadership shortcomings? I think my honourable

:55:38. > :55:49.friend put it rather better than I did! Thank you. I'm sure the Prime

:55:50. > :55:55.Minister and the whole house will join with me in welcoming a very

:55:56. > :55:59.successful visit by Her Majesty the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh to

:56:00. > :56:06.Northern Ireland this week. Will the Prime Minister also join with me in

:56:07. > :56:13.condemning Sinn Fein's foolish approach to welfare reform, which is

:56:14. > :56:17.not protecting the vulnerable in Northern Ireland, but is costing the

:56:18. > :56:25.Northern Ireland executive ?5 million per month in fines. I agree

:56:26. > :56:30.with the honourable gentleman on both counts. As ever, the Queen Roz

:56:31. > :56:33.visit to Northern Ireland has been a huge success and has highlighted the

:56:34. > :56:37.economic renaissance that is taking place, with over 800 foreign

:56:38. > :56:42.investors, Northern Ireland is now one of the top UK destinations for

:56:43. > :56:48.investment. I'm extremely jealous of her Majesty being able to step on

:56:49. > :56:53.the iron Throne and meet cast of Game Of Thrones, one of the most

:56:54. > :56:56.successful productions anywhere in the world, hosted in Northern

:56:57. > :56:59.Ireland. He's also right about welfare reform. The point of welfare

:57:00. > :57:03.reform is to help people get back to work, rather than just cut budgets.

:57:04. > :57:06.We need to explain to all the parties in Northern Ireland that we

:57:07. > :57:11.should be engaging in welfare reform to help people get back to work. On

:57:12. > :57:19.this side of the House we have a long-term economic plan. With

:57:20. > :57:23.education funding at its heart, which was seen in the enhanced 206

:57:24. > :57:27.to ?9 per pupil funding that all schools in Northumberland will

:57:28. > :57:30.receive next April. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that we need

:57:31. > :57:34.to continue that progress on education funding, so that as the

:57:35. > :57:40.plan takes effect we will get fairer funding for all the schools in this

:57:41. > :57:43.country? I Honourable friend is right. Education and better schools

:57:44. > :57:48.and skills are absolutely at the heart of our long-term economic

:57:49. > :57:50.plan. You should note that we are spending ?18 billion on school

:57:51. > :57:55.buildings in this Parliament, which is more than Labour spent in their

:57:56. > :57:58.first two terms combined, but specifically on the issue of a fair

:57:59. > :58:04.national funding formula, we have made some progress by allocating

:58:05. > :58:07.?350 million to the least fairly funded Local Authorities, and that

:58:08. > :58:15.will make a real difference in the coming year. On Monday morning,

:58:16. > :58:23.getting the train to London, I joined a picket line with the PCS

:58:24. > :58:28.trade union, protesting against closures of HMRC offices in Dundee

:58:29. > :58:33.and protecting our terms and conditions. But their main concern

:58:34. > :58:38.was they felt there was eight Government plan for privatisation of

:58:39. > :58:43.HMRC. Could the Prime Minister assure those members that they are

:58:44. > :58:47.no such plans under his watch? The plan we have four HMRC is to make it

:58:48. > :58:50.more efficient and more effective, at collecting taxes from people who

:58:51. > :58:59.should be paying them. That's the plan. On Sunday, 17-year-old James

:59:00. > :59:05.good ship tragically drowned at a lake in my constituency. His death

:59:06. > :59:09.has left his family, friends and the local community in shock. As this

:59:10. > :59:13.week is drowning prevention week, what can the Prime Minister do to

:59:14. > :59:16.raise awareness of the dangers of open water and improve water

:59:17. > :59:22.safety, particularly during such a warm summer that we are having at

:59:23. > :59:26.the moment? My heart goes out to the family that he mentions. He is right

:59:27. > :59:30.to raise this issue. For anyone to lose a son, and blues won in such a

:59:31. > :59:34.tragic way as this, is heartbreaking. We do need to spread

:59:35. > :59:38.better in the nation about the dangers of swimming in open water.

:59:39. > :59:42.We need to do more to teach swimming in schools and life-saving skills. I

:59:43. > :59:45.also think the heroism bill we are bringing forward, that will help

:59:46. > :59:51.people who want to do good and rescue people, will also, in a small

:59:52. > :59:55.way, helped as well. Hundreds of young British men and some women are

:59:56. > :00:01.now fighting in Syria and now with ISIS in Iraq. Some of them will come

:00:02. > :00:06.back to the UK trained, radicalised and ready to attack. Our prevent

:00:07. > :00:10.programme has been cut by ?70 million and the funding for local

:00:11. > :00:13.authorities to do the essential long-term community work is all but

:00:14. > :00:17.disappeared. We'll be Prime Minister undertake an urgent review of the

:00:18. > :00:20.strategy to make sure we have the plans and the resources to protect

:00:21. > :00:26.our young people from the extremists? I have great respect for

:00:27. > :00:30.the right honourable lady on this issue because she has always spoken

:00:31. > :00:33.clearly about the need to confront not just violent extremism but all

:00:34. > :00:38.forms of extremism. What we have done in this Government is to make

:00:39. > :00:42.sure the Prevent Programmers properly focused and works in a way

:00:43. > :00:47.that you are targeting those most at risk of being radicalised. We need

:00:48. > :00:50.to make sure we shift resources in our intelligence, security and

:00:51. > :00:55.policing services, to target those who are potentially returning from

:00:56. > :00:58.Syria or Iraq. We have made a large tub of arrests, we have confiscated

:00:59. > :01:09.passports, we have taken all the action necessary to keep our country

:01:10. > :01:12.safe. Julius House, a wonderful hospice in my constituency, is

:01:13. > :01:16.currently carrying out research with Bournemouth University into the

:01:17. > :01:20.impact of short breaks on family relationships. We'll be Prime

:01:21. > :01:27.Minister give higher priority to the funding of short breaks as an invest

:01:28. > :01:31.to save measure? I agree on this issue. Anyone bringing up a severely

:01:32. > :01:35.disabled child knows that when you find one of these hospices, and I

:01:36. > :01:38.will never forget finding Helen house in Oxford, which was the first

:01:39. > :01:42.children's hospice anywhere in the country, that it was a complete

:01:43. > :01:46.life-saver for families and carries out brilliant work. That is why we

:01:47. > :01:50.have committed over 800 million for local authorities to invest in short

:01:51. > :01:52.breaks for disabled children. I'm sure that this research from

:01:53. > :01:57.Bournemouth University will help inform our work in the future. I

:01:58. > :02:01.wonder if the Prime Minister is aware of the alleged mis-selling of

:02:02. > :02:05.cashback warranties by ScottishPower? I wonder if it

:02:06. > :02:09.concerns him as much as it does me that one of the UK's largest

:02:10. > :02:14.utilities companies has allegedly tried to eBay paying back money to

:02:15. > :02:18.thousands of people, many of whom are the poorest in our society. I

:02:19. > :02:23.cross-party delegation to get to the cross-party delegation to get to the

:02:24. > :02:28.truth of the matter. This took place over a decade ago. It was looked at

:02:29. > :02:31.at the time by the then Department of trade and industry. In light of

:02:32. > :02:35.the concerns that exist from members of the public about the outcome of

:02:36. > :02:37.the liquidation, I would like to encourage the honourable gentleman

:02:38. > :02:41.to give the business department all the new information that has come to

:02:42. > :02:44.light. I will fix a meeting for him with the Business Secretary and

:02:45. > :02:52.members of the all-party group, so we can try to get to the bottom of

:02:53. > :02:55.this issue. My constituent Michael Butcher installed CCTV in his

:02:56. > :02:58.mother's flat because she was a dementia sufferer. He recorded on

:02:59. > :03:06.this a brutal assault on her by her carer. Unbelievably to me, the CPS

:03:07. > :03:09.has refused to prosecute her because they say this not in the public

:03:10. > :03:13.interest. Would my right honourable friend agree with me that as a

:03:14. > :03:18.society, we should be totally intolerant of all attacks vulnerable

:03:19. > :03:22.people with dementia? On the specific case, it wouldn't be right

:03:23. > :03:26.for me to comment on the CPS decision. But on a general point

:03:27. > :03:29.about, is it right that we are intolerant of breaches of care

:03:30. > :03:33.against elderly people, particularly those with dementia who are reliant

:03:34. > :03:36.on others, guess, we should be intolerant of that. Our dementia

:03:37. > :03:40.strategy is all about not just increasing the research into trying

:03:41. > :03:43.to tackle dementia, but making sure our care homes and hospitals and

:03:44. > :03:55.communities become more dementia friendly. Mr Speaker, did Gus or

:03:56. > :04:01.Donnell raise any concern they may have had... A number of senior civil

:04:02. > :04:07.servants gave evidence to the leaves an inquiry and were closely

:04:08. > :04:11.questioned. -- lead the singing it. The whole process of Andy Coulson,

:04:12. > :04:15.his arrival in Number Ten Downing Street, the betting of Andy Coulson,

:04:16. > :04:22.the warnings that were given, each and every single one were dealt with

:04:23. > :04:24.by the investigation that the right honourable gentleman supported from

:04:25. > :04:28.the position of leader of the opposition. But he cannot bear the

:04:29. > :04:32.fact that an independent, judge-led enquiry came to that conclusion. He

:04:33. > :04:34.is the first leader of the opposition not able to ask for an

:04:35. > :04:43.independent judicial enquiry because he's already had one. Although the

:04:44. > :04:47.World Cup football results they have not been quite what we wanted in

:04:48. > :04:51.England, we have got the 2015 World Cup rugby to look forward to. My

:04:52. > :04:55.right honourable friend knows there will be four foreign teams playing

:04:56. > :04:59.at Kingsholm on my constituency. Would he agree with me that this is

:05:00. > :05:02.a great opportunity to use the Chancellor's new Brownfield site

:05:03. > :05:07.fund, plus perhaps a new city 's deal from DC LG, to make sure that

:05:08. > :05:13.the regeneration of our small cities is ready for the World Cup 2015? My

:05:14. > :05:16.honourable friend is right, that after the disappointment of the

:05:17. > :05:20.football and also the disappointment of that stunning Test match where we

:05:21. > :05:24.lost on the second last ball, I think it is time perhaps to look to

:05:25. > :05:31.rugby to provide us with something to lift our spirits. Last but not

:05:32. > :05:34.least, Caroline Lucas. In my constituency of Brighton Pavilion,

:05:35. > :05:39.fully one third of homes in the private rented sector, where tenants

:05:40. > :05:43.are often ripped off, forced to move at a month's notice and the average

:05:44. > :05:47.rent for a two-bedroom home is ?1200 a month. Will the Prime Minister

:05:48. > :05:49.back my call for a living rent commission, to explore ways of

:05:50. > :05:54.bringing rents back into line with the basic cost living? There's a

:05:55. > :05:59.debate shortly on the private rented sector and how we get more houses

:06:00. > :06:03.and more competitive rents. Of course we want to see more

:06:04. > :06:06.competitive rents, but when I look at the policies of her party, it

:06:07. > :06:08.looks like you never build any houses anywhere for anyone and as a

:06:09. > :06:23.result, rents would go up. it was dominated by Andy Coulson and

:06:24. > :06:26.the Prime Minister's judgment in employing him as director of

:06:27. > :06:32.communications. In opposition and taking him into government in 2010.

:06:33. > :06:36.A lot of disagreement between the Prime Minister and the leader of the

:06:37. > :06:42.opposition. Some of them fabbing #k4u8. -- factual. The Prime

:06:43. > :06:47.Minister wrapped himself in the Leveson report. Almost every reply

:06:48. > :06:52.was Leveson had answered that question and the Prime Minister

:06:53. > :06:57.hadn't done anything wrong. While we have been on air. I can tell you

:06:58. > :07:05.there is some news from the trial. The jury has been discharged in the

:07:06. > :07:10.hacking trial. It has come to a verdict on the hacking yesterday. It

:07:11. > :07:17.had two other charges to look at, basically about per version of the

:07:18. > :07:21.course of justice and misuse, Mus conduct -- - misconduct of public

:07:22. > :07:29.office and the jury has been unable to come to a decision on these

:07:30. > :07:36.matters involving Andy Coulson and Clive Goodman, so it has been

:07:37. > :07:41.discharged. The judge will decide on Monday if there will be a retrial.

:07:42. > :07:48.So it is a long saga, with 12 other trials to come. The jury has been

:07:49. > :07:56.discharged, unable to come to a verdict on the other issues. We will

:07:57. > :08:04.bring you more on that. Jo, what are the viewers saying about PMQs. They

:08:05. > :08:10.were split. Even said it was an easy win for Ed Milliband. We didn't

:08:11. > :08:14.learn anything new though. The Martin said David Cameron used

:08:15. > :08:19.eleven sop as a shield -- Leveson as a shield. But Andy Coulson was found

:08:20. > :08:24.guilty of hacking and David Cameron ignored concerns about him. Joss

:08:25. > :08:28.said Ed Milliband's fixation with David Cameron having employed Andy

:08:29. > :08:33.Coulson is of no interest to voters. This is the sort of Westminster

:08:34. > :08:38.in-fighting that makes the public sick of politics. And Matthew said

:08:39. > :08:44.the rhetoric of the Labour team about David Cameron's employment of

:08:45. > :08:48.Andy Coulson ring hollow. No one believes that Blair and Brown

:08:49. > :08:55.behaved any differently during their time at No 10. And Jacqueline said

:08:56. > :09:00.it is a predictable line of questioning. Both Labour and Tories

:09:01. > :09:08.were wining and dining the press, the Murdoch press in particular, it

:09:09. > :09:12.is hypocritical. So breaking news, the phone hacking trial jury has

:09:13. > :09:15.been discharged after failing to reach verdicts on two further

:09:16. > :09:22.charges against Andy Coulson. A decision on the a retrial we won't

:09:23. > :09:27.know until Monday. In the general response of the Prime Minister, I

:09:28. > :09:36.did think it was interesting how he wrapped himself in the Leveson

:09:37. > :09:41.report. It is what I call the Hutton/Blair defence. When ever Tony

:09:42. > :09:46.Blair was asked about the death of Mr Hutton, he said, read the report.

:09:47. > :09:52.David Cameron was doing the same. Holding it up, saying there it is,

:09:53. > :10:00.it cost five million quid. That may not clear up the voters, but

:10:01. > :10:07.declaring not guilty. But he could do that about front-pages in The

:10:08. > :10:11.Guardian. When Ed Milliband asked him twice about whether there was

:10:12. > :10:16.civil service advice that it was unwise to appoint Andy Coulson, then

:10:17. > :10:22.David Cameron insisted that too had been raised in the Leveson inquiry

:10:23. > :10:26.and raised with the man who had been head of the civil service at the

:10:27. > :10:30.time. Then Gus O'Donnell. I have checked and I can find no evidence

:10:31. > :10:34.that was raised. I have of course had to speed read the transcript and

:10:35. > :10:38.looked at the newspaper reports, Ed Milliband himself said that he

:10:39. > :10:46.didn't think it had been raised in the Leveson inquiry and when it was

:10:47. > :10:51.raised by a third time by a Labour backbencher, the Prime Minister was

:10:52. > :10:55.more evasive. Saying all sorts of civil servants have been asked all

:10:56. > :11:02.sorts of things. It seems likely, my memory is it was said at the time,

:11:03. > :11:07.but I haven't got evidence, that civil servants said you do know

:11:08. > :11:10.there is questions about this guy, are you sure? Do you think it is

:11:11. > :11:17.wise. It seems likely that happened. Was it advice or a warning, or a

:11:18. > :11:20.quizzical Yes minister question? I don't know. What was unwise of the

:11:21. > :11:26.Prime Minister is to claim that elevenson cleared him of this. --

:11:27. > :11:31.Leveson. I have been through this transcript as well, or as much as we

:11:32. > :11:37.can can get. Two things seem hard to establish. First it is hard to see

:11:38. > :11:45.Leveson asking Gus O'Donnell asking if he expressed concerns about Andy

:11:46. > :11:49.Coulson. He asked about deep vetting. Whether reservations were

:11:50. > :11:54.expressed by the permanent bureaucracy, that is not clear that

:11:55. > :11:58.was raised in the Leveson inquiry. So I think that puts David Cameron

:11:59. > :12:03.in the spot. What Ed Milliband has to do is find some way of trying to

:12:04. > :12:07.prove that the civil servants raised this. To prove it and find somebody

:12:08. > :12:12.willing to say they raised it and to prove that there were not just

:12:13. > :12:17.public warnings that we knew about from newspapers and Nick Clegg. But

:12:18. > :12:22.private warnings. In the end David Cameron can say, I didn't have any

:12:23. > :12:26.evidence. The evidence I had was that he was not guilty. But it is

:12:27. > :12:31.another interesting tactic he uses. He often says look, I got the same

:12:32. > :12:38.assurances as the police got. I got the same assurances the Press

:12:39. > :12:42.Complaints Commission. He muddling his times. At the times the

:12:43. > :12:45.allegations were made, the police and the Press Complaints Commission

:12:46. > :12:53.had not looked into this. At the time he was making a decision to

:12:54. > :13:00.stand by his man, it wasn't case he could say these organisations such

:13:01. > :13:05.as the police had backed him. Do I think they're fatal? No, they cast

:13:06. > :13:08.further questions and doubt on the judgment of appointing him. You have

:13:09. > :13:15.been deep vetted you were telling us. I was a special advisor in

:13:16. > :13:19.Northern Ireland and when I was appointed the first thing you were

:13:20. > :13:26.asked to do is undergo what is called developed vetting. It was

:13:27. > :13:31.called positive vetting. It is the most intrusive form of viting to

:13:32. > :13:35.determine -- vetting to determine whether you're trust worthy and they

:13:36. > :13:42.asked you some horrible questions about your sex life and your

:13:43. > :13:48.financial background. Mine was depressingly plain! I find it

:13:49. > :13:51.implausible that that process wasn't imposed on a man who is going to be

:13:52. > :13:56.director of communications at the heart of No 10. It is not just my

:13:57. > :14:00.experience, all of his predecessor, his deputy and his successor went

:14:01. > :14:06.through that level of security. The reason you have got to go through

:14:07. > :14:12.it, is if you can't undertake that, you can't read the most top secret

:14:13. > :14:18.documents and offer advice to the Prime Minister of the country. If he

:14:19. > :14:23.didn't undergo thastret vet -- vetting, somebody took a decision.

:14:24. > :14:27.Him being the Prime Minister? Mr Andy Coulson may have chosen not to

:14:28. > :14:33.undergo that degree of vetting. Or the Prime Minister, or civil

:14:34. > :14:38.servants. But it is undoubtedly out of the ordinary for a director of

:14:39. > :14:42.communications in the No 10 department not to undergo that. They

:14:43. > :14:47.have failed to answer why it was he wasn't subject to that degree of

:14:48. > :14:52.scrutiny. I think we can craw con-- draw conclusions. Would there have

:14:53. > :14:57.been a chance if Andy Coulson had gone through this, it is developed

:14:58. > :15:03.vetting it is called. Is there a chance that could have found out

:15:04. > :15:09.that he had been involved in the whole hacking business? Yes, there

:15:10. > :15:16.is every prospect. Why? Because what you do in these tests, you are

:15:17. > :15:21.submitted to two interviews and asked to provide examples of

:15:22. > :15:27.individuals you, who have known you during your life so, they can be

:15:28. > :15:31.cross-examinationed to -- cross-examined to see what you have

:15:32. > :15:35.said and look into your work experience and past history. It is

:15:36. > :15:40.possible that that might have turned up. In fact it is implausible it

:15:41. > :15:44.wouldn't have turned up all of the questions that were in the public

:15:45. > :15:51.domain. You didn't need somebody to do a check to know this was a bloke

:15:52. > :15:56.about whom there were questions. Priti Patel, by the May of 2010 when

:15:57. > :16:00.he was moving from being an advisor to the opposition to becoming a

:16:01. > :16:03.proper director of communications at the heart of government,

:16:04. > :16:11.proper director of communications at the heart of we had had the Guardian

:16:12. > :16:15.study. It wasn't until September 2010 we got the New York Times

:16:16. > :16:19.report. But there was a lot of information in the public domain you

:16:20. > :16:23.would expect that guys and women who do developed vetting would have got

:16:24. > :16:27.involved in? I can't speak for that time and we can make all sorts of

:16:28. > :16:33.comments with hind sight. But it seems from me even from Owen's

:16:34. > :16:39.comments, there is a process and the civil service took the edecision o'

:16:40. > :16:47.- the decision it was for them to undertake the process. I don't know

:16:48. > :16:51.what, why there were not triggers. Perhaps Leveson should have asked

:16:52. > :16:55.the questions. Whether they came out in court we don't know. We are

:16:56. > :17:02.getting an Executive versus judiciary spat. The hacking trial

:17:03. > :17:08.judge has said he considered halting proceedings following criticism by

:17:09. > :17:13.No 10 spin doctor's lawyer of the Prime Minister's ill advised

:17:14. > :17:19.intervention in the case. Let's go to Robin who is in his favourite

:17:20. > :17:24.position outside the court. Bring us up to speed. There is a lot

:17:25. > :17:28.happening now? Yes, we knew this yesterday. We can now report,

:17:29. > :17:32.because the jury has been discharged. In the final hours of

:17:33. > :17:35.the trial yesterday, after the verdicts were returned, partial

:17:36. > :17:39.verdicts which cleared Rebekah Brooks and others and found Andy

:17:40. > :17:44.Coulson guilty of phone hacking, the judge was concerned that comments

:17:45. > :17:48.from the Prime Minister and Ed Milliband may have scuppered the

:17:49. > :17:51.whole thing. We didn't get everything yesterday. We still had

:17:52. > :17:57.do remaining counts, which the jury were unable to reach a verdict on.

:17:58. > :18:04.It looks like somebody is leaving court. But I will continue. They

:18:05. > :18:10.were unable to reach a verdict yesterday and Timothy Langdale said

:18:11. > :18:16.there has been a tidal wave of reporting both last night and today

:18:17. > :18:18.and his concern and he did point the finger at the Prime Minister, that

:18:19. > :18:21.comments from the Prime Minister who, had said that Andy Coulson had

:18:22. > :18:26.lied to him and from Ed Milliband who referred to Andy Coulson as a

:18:27. > :18:32.criminal, meant that this jury were unable to reach impartial verdicts.

:18:33. > :18:37.I can also say the judge was in contact with the Prime Minister's

:18:38. > :18:40.PPS yesterday and the Attorney General's office to understand how

:18:41. > :18:43.the decision had been made for the Prime Minister to make that

:18:44. > :18:46.statement. The judge wanted representations from the Prime

:18:47. > :18:51.Minister's office and to know was the statement made at the particular

:18:52. > :18:54.time deliberately or out of ignorance. He referred to

:18:55. > :19:00.politicians trying to make capital out of those statements yesterday. I

:19:01. > :19:01.think partially that point is moot now, because the

:19:02. > :19:05.think partially that point is moot now, jury have been discharged.

:19:06. > :19:08.There may be a retrial. But it is intriguing and in the final hours of

:19:09. > :19:11.the trial there was the prospect and concern from this judge that

:19:12. > :19:15.actually the politicians and the Prime Minister especially could have

:19:16. > :19:22.scuppered the whole thing coming to an end and coming to an end in an

:19:23. > :19:30.inappropriate way. All of that would be relevant to a jury in a retrial.

:19:31. > :19:36.Everything you have said that could have contaminated this jury, these

:19:37. > :19:39.arguments could be used in a retrial and Andy Coulson's lawyers may well

:19:40. > :19:51.argue that he cannot get a fair trial. I think that's true. One of

:19:52. > :19:55.the big issues in this trial has been what has been known by the

:19:56. > :19:59.public at large and any potential juror 's before they come to this

:20:00. > :20:05.court and take on the responsibility of being jurors. That was a huge

:20:06. > :20:09.issue. Before this trial began last year, Rebekah Brooks' team submitted

:20:10. > :20:13.applications for the judge, and it was impossible for her to get a fair

:20:14. > :20:13.applications for the judge, and it trial because they said so much

:20:14. > :20:17.negative publicity was out trial because they said so much

:20:18. > :20:20.about her, so much in the way of personal attacks. In the end, she

:20:21. > :20:25.sat here for eight months, got a fair trial and this jury returned an

:20:26. > :20:29.unanimous verdict and acquitted on all four charges she faced. Andy

:20:30. > :20:34.Coulson has a legal team that is being funded by News UK. He faces

:20:35. > :20:39.the prospect of legal proceedings elsewhere after this. They would

:20:40. > :20:43.quite rightly, you might say, use anything available to them to ensure

:20:44. > :20:49.that if there is a risk he doesn't get a fair trial in the future, then

:20:50. > :20:56.a court should hear about it and potential juror 's should hear about

:20:57. > :21:01.it as well. There was a reference in Gus O'Donnell's testimony to the

:21:02. > :21:05.inquiry about Mr Coulson, but it wasn't about him expressing any

:21:06. > :21:09.concerns to the Prime Minister. He was asked about the Deputy Prime

:21:10. > :21:12.Minister, the royal household raising the matter with him. He

:21:13. > :21:16.said, neither Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Clegg, nor the Royal

:21:17. > :21:21.household raised any concerns with me or officials either before or

:21:22. > :21:25.during Mr Coulson's period of employment. That is a different

:21:26. > :21:28.issue. I guess Buckingham Palace were involved because the News of

:21:29. > :21:31.the World had been targeting some of the royal phones. That doesn't get

:21:32. > :21:38.us any further forward on whether the civil service or Mr O'Donnell

:21:39. > :21:40.himself raised the issue. It's pretty extraordinary that the

:21:41. > :21:45.hacking trial judge considered stopping the trial will stop the

:21:46. > :21:49.prime Minister's intervention was, quote, ill-advised and premature,

:21:50. > :21:53.was what the judge said. What is even more intriguing was at the time

:21:54. > :21:58.David Cameron was speaking to the cameras, the Government's principal

:21:59. > :22:01.legal officer, the Attorney General, an independent legal figure, even

:22:02. > :22:04.though he's a politician, he has independent status, he was in the

:22:05. > :22:12.room advising him about what could and could not be said. He clearly

:22:13. > :22:16.took legal advice from the top lawyer. The Curiosity rover this for

:22:17. > :22:23.people who follow the law is the person you would actually prosecute

:22:24. > :22:32.in the temp of contempt of court was the Attorney General.

:22:33. > :22:35.person you would actually prosecute in the temp of We need to move on,

:22:36. > :22:40.whether or not there is a retrial, we will hear that on Monday. There

:22:41. > :22:54.are big concerns about whether now a jury, having heard all this come,

:22:55. > :22:57.can do the trial proper. Let's see. Should the government focus on

:22:58. > :23:01.tackling extremist mindsets, which some argue lead to a violent

:23:02. > :23:05.conclusion? If you decide to challenge more conservative or

:23:06. > :23:09.radical reforms of Islam, could you end up alienating those who need to

:23:10. > :23:12.keep onside? That's an argument which is currently under way within

:23:13. > :23:16.Whitehall and the security services, and an argument that this journalist

:23:17. > :23:26.thinks is going in the wrong direction. Ear is her soapbox.

:23:27. > :23:32.The horrific death and destruction in Tavistock Square nine years ago

:23:33. > :23:35.was the work of violent extremists. But in the years since, the

:23:36. > :23:41.accusation of extremism has been levelled wider and wider. Just last

:23:42. > :23:45.week, Cameron called for tackling extremist rhetoric, not just violent

:23:46. > :23:48.acts, stating, we don't tolerate fascists in this country so we

:23:49. > :23:55.shouldn't tolerate that argument when it comes to Islamic extremism.

:23:56. > :24:00.Except that we do tolerate fascists. The leader of the BNP appears on

:24:01. > :24:03.flagship BBC programmes. Neither the EDL built Britain first had been

:24:04. > :24:07.prescribed. The reason we tolerate fascists is because we value free

:24:08. > :24:11.speech and freedom of conscience. The hysteria reached new heights

:24:12. > :24:14.with recent events in Birmingham. The Muslim governors and parents

:24:15. > :24:22.caught up in the so called Trojan horse row aren't the equivalent of

:24:23. > :24:26.the BNP. They are simply old-fashioned, social conservatives

:24:27. > :24:29.who don't approve of music or sex outside of marriage. You don't have

:24:30. > :24:33.too agree with them, but you can't call them extreme in the sense of a

:24:34. > :24:36.threat to national security. And it's not just our current Prime

:24:37. > :24:40.Minister. Tony Blair compared Birmingham schools to the gun

:24:41. > :24:44.toting, hand chopping Boko Haram terror arrests. This is precisely

:24:45. > :24:48.where the strategy of targeting non-violent extremists is so

:24:49. > :24:54.misguided. If opposing gay marriage makes you an un-British extremist,

:24:55. > :24:58.then there are plenty of Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Jews and even

:24:59. > :25:01.non-believers who could be lumped into that definition, starting with

:25:02. > :25:04.the Archbishop of Canterbury. And if gender segregation is extreme, where

:25:05. > :25:09.does that leave Eaton, Harrow or Cheltenham ladies College? In fact,

:25:10. > :25:14.where does it leave those Cabinet ministers who are members of the

:25:15. > :25:18.all-male Bullington club? And, no, it isn't extremist to use halal meet

:25:19. > :25:22.in pizza express. Nor is it extremist to wear a headscarf or any

:25:23. > :25:28.other form of conservative dress per se, or to pray in the mosque five

:25:29. > :25:33.times a day. It is damaging to social cohesion and ultimately

:25:34. > :25:35.self-defeating to go after the fine looking social conservatives, when

:25:36. > :25:39.the evidence suggests that terrorists are more likely to be

:25:40. > :25:43.cricket playing, club going political radicals. The threat of

:25:44. > :25:46.violent extremism is too serious to risk alienating an entire community

:25:47. > :25:50.because some may hold socially conservative views on gender or

:25:51. > :25:55.disapprove of tombola. Let's focus our energies on those with the will

:25:56. > :26:04.and capabilities to harness, rather than risk stigmatising those who may

:26:05. > :26:08.hold illiberal views. Welcome to the programme. Isn't the point about

:26:09. > :26:14.imposing social conservatism in schools, it's when you impose your

:26:15. > :26:17.views, which not be extreme if you are using other comparisons, but you

:26:18. > :26:23.are using them inappropriately in an educational sphere? According to

:26:24. > :26:26.what? Academies have been given the power to reflect the ethos of the

:26:27. > :26:31.community in which they are working. In that sense, if you want to open

:26:32. > :26:34.up a debate on academies and free schools and whether or not they

:26:35. > :26:40.should be given the freedom to do that, I think there is a debate to

:26:41. > :26:42.be had. What about in taxpayer-funded state schools,

:26:43. > :26:48.particularly coed, is it acceptable for boys and girls to be separated

:26:49. > :26:52.in mainstream lessons? Many faith schools in this country Faith --

:26:53. > :26:57.state funded. They are separating boys and girls with taxpayer money.

:26:58. > :27:03.So it is acceptable? It is done. boys and girls with taxpayer money.

:27:04. > :27:09.non-faith, taxpayer funded schools, some of these were in Birmingham?

:27:10. > :27:12.When 90% of your student body is from a particular religion, is it

:27:13. > :27:15.appropriate then to ask for that school to be turned into a faith

:27:16. > :27:19.school? There's a broader debate to be had about schools, but the issue

:27:20. > :27:23.is it's not an issue of radicalisation. Is Miriam Wright,

:27:24. > :27:34.they are not extreme if you are imposing these sorts of things, it

:27:35. > :27:36.might be socially conservative? I think this is about values in an

:27:37. > :27:38.educational environment and institutions. It's not about the

:27:39. > :27:41.imposition in the Draconian way we've heard about in the past. There

:27:42. > :27:44.are plenty of faith schools where you see values and faith come into

:27:45. > :27:48.play in the right kind of way, it's balanced, it's not imposed in the

:27:49. > :27:55.very stringent and, I don't like using the term... Some of

:27:56. > :27:58.very stringent and, I don't like Birmingham schools? They are being

:27:59. > :28:01.investigated. There was an extremist ideology, that was what was

:28:02. > :28:07.reported... What is extremist? ideology, that was what was

:28:08. > :28:10.are the words they used. They felt things like banning tombola or a

:28:11. > :28:15.raffle at the school fete seemed extreme. Segregation, extreme. A

:28:16. > :28:19.preacher in a school, extended Islamic assembly, a preacher calling

:28:20. > :28:24.on board to destroy the enemies of Islam, is that not extreme? If you

:28:25. > :28:34.set up within the school grounds and the fact he was invited in the first

:28:35. > :28:36.place is an absolute problem. He should have been vetted. Whether or

:28:37. > :28:42.not banning tombola is extreme, I don't think we are going to agree

:28:43. > :28:44.there. We've run out of time. I don't like tombola! The answer to

:28:45. > :28:59.Guess the Year was 1965. I'll be back tomorrow at the earlier

:29:00. > :29:01.time of 11am because it is Wimbledon. Goodbye!