:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:43.Cameron's in the dock for apologising over Andy Coulson.
:00:44. > :00:45.The judge says the PM - and other leading politicians -
:00:46. > :00:51.could have scuppered the rest of the phone-hacking trial.
:00:52. > :00:53.We delve into the head of Jean-Claude Juncker, who looks
:00:54. > :00:56.set to be the next president of the European Commission,
:00:57. > :01:03.And want to get beach fit for the summer?
:01:04. > :01:09.Try Adam's London tour of European think tanks and pressure groups.
:01:10. > :01:15.This is the office of a very Eurosceptic group inspired by
:01:16. > :01:21.Margaret Thatcher's speech from the 80s. It is next door to the Calvin
:01:22. > :01:22.Klein shop, which is appropriate, because they think Europe is a load
:01:23. > :01:27.of pants. And with us the duration is
:01:28. > :01:33.Mats Persson Mats here doesn't want Britain to
:01:34. > :01:37.leave Europe but wants big reform Now, first today, let's talk about
:01:38. > :01:48.the phone hacking trial because yesterday the judge presiding over
:01:49. > :01:59.proceedings strongly rebuked Are asked him and my chief of staff
:02:00. > :02:03.asked him whether he knew about phone hacking. We accepted his
:02:04. > :02:08.assurances. That was the basis on which I employed him. I was always
:02:09. > :02:11.clear I was giving someone a second chance. He had resigned from the
:02:12. > :02:15.News of the World because of the bad things that happen there. I accepted
:02:16. > :02:19.his assurances and gave him a job. It was a second chance and turned
:02:20. > :02:24.out to be a bad decision and I'm extremely sorry about that. But I
:02:25. > :02:28.would say that he didn't, in the work he did for me before I became
:02:29. > :02:32.Prime Minister or as Prime Minister, people have complained about that
:02:33. > :02:35.work. But still, employing someone when they gave false assurances was
:02:36. > :02:40.the wrong decision. I'm profoundly sorry about that. I always said that
:02:41. > :02:44.if this turned out to be the case, I would not be found wanting in giving
:02:45. > :02:50.a full apology. I'm sorry about that. It was a bad decision. I
:02:51. > :02:57.shouldn't have made it. He apologised on Tuesday. Mr calls and
:02:58. > :03:04.was found guilty of conspiracy to hack phones. The only problem was
:03:05. > :03:08.that the jury was still considering other verdict in the trial.
:03:09. > :03:10.The judge, Mr Justice Saunders, said he was "very concerned" about
:03:11. > :03:13.the Prime Minister's intervention and accused Mr Cameron of launching
:03:14. > :03:16.an "open season" on the defendant, who was still facing two charges of
:03:17. > :03:25.conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office.
:03:26. > :03:30.Well, joining me now is the Labour MP Tom Watson
:03:31. > :03:34.and the former Solicitor General, the Conservative MP Edward Garnier.
:03:35. > :03:45.Can clock so that the problem was that the Prime Minister wasn't a
:03:46. > :03:49.lawyer but it turns out he had the Attorney-General in the room giving
:03:50. > :03:56.him advice. Did the Attorney-General give the wrong advice? Depends what
:03:57. > :04:01.advice he gave them. Add voice to speak out, clearly. We don't know
:04:02. > :04:04.that. We do know that. The Prime Minister would not have spoken out
:04:05. > :04:09.like that without taking legal advice. What we do know is that the
:04:10. > :04:15.political imperative for the Prime Minister to make some statement was
:04:16. > :04:18.there. I accept that the judges extremely concerned that he made the
:04:19. > :04:23.statement when he did but if you consider the timetable - there had
:04:24. > :04:27.been verdict given, though I appreciate there were several more
:04:28. > :04:30.to come. The following day was going to be Prime Minister's Questions. It
:04:31. > :04:36.was inevitable that Miliband was going to go on this. If we think the
:04:37. > :04:39.Speaker would have stopped Mr Miliband from asking questions about
:04:40. > :04:42.it even though the jury was still out, we are living in a different
:04:43. > :04:44.country, not least because he allowed the Chancellor to be
:04:45. > :04:49.questioned by the shadow chancellor. Should the judge have
:04:50. > :04:54.given more explicit guidance after the first set of verdicts came out,
:04:55. > :05:00.knowing there were two other verdict? He could have put a blanket
:05:01. > :05:04.no reporting order until all verdicts were returned. But bear in
:05:05. > :05:07.mind this trial had been going on for eight months and a number of
:05:08. > :05:12.people had been acquitted. I think they were entitled to have those
:05:13. > :05:16.acquittals made public as soon as possible. Why didn't he deliver the
:05:17. > :05:22.verdicts altogether? He could have done but the jury were entitled to
:05:23. > :05:28.come back and say that they had decided on some but not on others.
:05:29. > :05:32.Having acquitted a number of people, who have been in the dock
:05:33. > :05:36.for eight months, I dare say the judge thought that the acquitted
:05:37. > :05:41.people had a right to see their exoneration is out there as soon as
:05:42. > :05:44.possible. The Attorney-General clearly gave the Prime Minister one
:05:45. > :05:51.piece of advice - that he could go ahead and make his apology, call Mr
:05:52. > :05:58.cool son a liar -- Andy Coulson a liar. I don't know what advice the
:05:59. > :06:10.Attorney-General gave the Prime Minister but the short point is,
:06:11. > :06:15.what effect would it have. I researched around for advice and the
:06:16. > :06:20.advice came back from the deputy as a kid, please do not comment until
:06:21. > :06:26.the verdict. Tom Watson says nothing is news in itself. Would you have
:06:27. > :06:31.commented at that point? I know you wouldn't have done. You're a very
:06:32. > :06:36.able lawyer. That's kind of you to say so. I'll give you my telephone
:06:37. > :06:42.number. I'm very expensive. You need to be careful. The problem that the
:06:43. > :06:48.Prime Minister faced was that he had a media storm already building up.
:06:49. > :06:51.We know the circumstances. I'm just wondering what advice he would have
:06:52. > :06:54.given the Prime Minister. I'm not going to say because I wasn't there
:06:55. > :07:01.to give it. Would you have commented? I haven't commented. You
:07:02. > :07:06.said in July 2011 that Rebekah Brooks was not only responsible for
:07:07. > :07:10.wrongdoing at News International but that you believed she knew about a.
:07:11. > :07:15.Do you accept that is wrong? Rebekah Brooks is not guilty. She has been
:07:16. > :07:19.found not guilty of conspiring to hack phones in a court of law. She
:07:20. > :07:25.is innocent. I wish her well with her life. Do you apologise for
:07:26. > :07:29.saying she knew about it? I'm not going to apologise. The club against
:07:30. > :07:36.a very powerful company that a court case has exposed for having
:07:37. > :07:42.potentially 5000 victims of phone hacking. If you remember, back then,
:07:43. > :07:48.there were many public institutions - the police, the criminal justice
:07:49. > :07:53.system, past prime ministers - who were not standing up for families
:07:54. > :08:00.like the Dowlers. I was shaking the tree. The tree has been shaken but
:08:01. > :08:04.you said the story of Rebekah Brooks being far from events was simply not
:08:05. > :08:09.believable, when a jury of her peers found it very believable. At the
:08:10. > :08:14.time, I thought that an editor would be on top of those stories. She is
:08:15. > :08:16.now said that the staff under Hurd took the decisions without her
:08:17. > :08:21.knowing. She basically said she knew nothing about it and she wasn't the
:08:22. > :08:28.editor that I thought she was. I do accept that she has been found not
:08:29. > :08:37.guilty and I hope she goes on to do something productive with her life.
:08:38. > :08:41.It was said in court that you hated her. I don't hate anyone. Not even
:08:42. > :08:45.Tony Blair, although I'm not very happy with him at the moment. I
:08:46. > :08:48.don't hate anyone and it wasn't personal. It was about trying to
:08:49. > :08:53.expose criminality at News International. Six people have
:08:54. > :08:58.pleaded guilty or been found guilty, very senior editors. We have an
:08:59. > :09:02.eight-month trial, estimated to cost ?100 million, and we've had seven
:09:03. > :09:11.defendants and one charge out of 14. That's because five of them
:09:12. > :09:15.pleaded guilty. But the real cost was in the trial. There were huge
:09:16. > :09:24.costs at pre-trial. They pleaded very late. If they had dropped the
:09:25. > :09:29.one rogue reporter defends in 2006, as we now know Andy Coulson now knew
:09:30. > :09:32.that was the case -- could not be the case because he was played a
:09:33. > :09:38.phone hacked message in 2004, we wouldn't have had any of this cost.
:09:39. > :09:41.About 40 descent of the annual budget of the Met's homicide
:09:42. > :09:49.division was being spent on this. -- 40% bracket one charge out of 14 has
:09:50. > :09:56.been held up. The Murdoch family's net wealth has almost doubled and
:09:57. > :10:04.the sun has hailed it as a great day for red tops. -- the something
:10:05. > :10:08.aggro. If the whole organisation was criminal, the aim was to bring it
:10:09. > :10:14.down. The aim was to expose wrongdoing and if the alternative is
:10:15. > :10:17.just to let the journalists carry on hacking the phones of abducted
:10:18. > :10:23.teenage schoolgirls, do you think that is right? The alternative would
:10:24. > :10:27.be to make sure we got ?100 million worth of justice by perhaps getting
:10:28. > :10:34.better than one charge out of 14. I wasn't a prosecutor. Maybe you
:10:35. > :10:37.should have been. But is that the right measure? Lots of people are
:10:38. > :10:41.acquitted when the jury considers the evidence. Lots of people are
:10:42. > :10:45.convicted when the jury considers the evidence. An acquittal is not a
:10:46. > :10:50.failure of the justice system. But it isn't a great track record for
:10:51. > :10:56.the CPS. The point I'm making is that the justice system is there to
:10:57. > :11:00.try people. Your leader, Mr Miliband, has dined out on his claim
:11:01. > :11:04.that he is the man who took on Murdoch when all around him would.
:11:05. > :11:11.You, as well as I, know that isn't true. -- would not. He only turned
:11:12. > :11:17.on Mr Murdoch after the Milly Dowler scandal became public. In a day that
:11:18. > :11:21.I will never forget, he got up in the chamber and said Rebekah Brooks
:11:22. > :11:26.should resign and BSkyB should be shelved. I owe him a great debt of
:11:27. > :11:32.loyalty for that because I'm not taking away anything from the other
:11:33. > :11:36.people that run for leader of the Labour Party but I think he's the
:11:37. > :11:41.only candidate, other than Diane Abbott, who that decision. He
:11:42. > :11:44.decided to take it on. I think the others would have taken a different
:11:45. > :11:49.path. But it was only after Milly Dowler broke and by then it became
:11:50. > :11:53.toxic. The week before, he'd been sitting champagne with Rupert
:11:54. > :11:58.Murdoch at a summer party. Some reports say he was one of the last
:11:59. > :12:02.to leave. Well, I wouldn't have done that but he did do the right thing.
:12:03. > :12:08.But only after it was like shooting trout in a barrel. What would you
:12:09. > :12:12.like me to say? You took on Murdoch before Milly Dowler. He did the
:12:13. > :12:19.right thing and I stand by him for that. I would liken to commit the
:12:20. > :12:24.Labour Party to permitting the Leveson proposals in full, which
:12:25. > :12:30.would you deeply. It doesn't upset me at all. You commit the Labour
:12:31. > :12:36.Party to what you want. What I think is not the issue. What did you think
:12:37. > :12:44.of a man who boasted taking on Murdoch being pictured reading the
:12:45. > :12:49.Sun? I was very embarrassed. Why did it not dawn on him what he was
:12:50. > :12:55.doing? I suspect because he is head of press thrust the paper in front
:12:56. > :13:00.of him. He is the Rubiks cube kit. Has he not got a brain to think for
:13:01. > :13:04.himself? I haven't been in that kind of job where you have things coming
:13:05. > :13:09.at you from all sides. I was his performance in the Commons are so
:13:10. > :13:14.poor yesterday? He had an open goal against David Cameron and drew less
:13:15. > :13:16.blood than Luis Suarez. I'm not sure whether the position David Cameron
:13:17. > :13:22.took will hold because Leveson is not over. There is a second part of
:13:23. > :13:27.Leveson, which is the bit that, as Leveson said, should show who did
:13:28. > :13:29.what to whom and when. I think he was asking legitimate questions
:13:30. > :13:36.about what David Cameron knew when he took Andy Coulson into Downing
:13:37. > :13:40.Street. He didn't quite make it. David Cameron had a single, robust
:13:41. > :13:45.line of defence, not answering the questions. It doesn't mean the
:13:46. > :13:49.questions will go away. Isn't it just time to park it? We've have
:13:50. > :13:55.this massive case. There are still scores of journalists still under
:13:56. > :14:00.bail. They don't know what their future is and some will be waiting
:14:01. > :14:04.four years until they get to trial. There am many occasions where I wish
:14:05. > :14:10.we could have this behind us and I actually do feel very sorry for
:14:11. > :14:12.those junior journalists who were part of a big corporate culture that
:14:13. > :14:17.expected these things to happen. They have my sympathy. One of the
:14:18. > :14:23.things I hope can happen is that the newsrooms of the tabloid newspapers
:14:24. > :14:27.say to their proprietors, "get the self-regulatory proposals in place,
:14:28. > :14:31.let journalism move on, and let's hope that at some point we can ask
:14:32. > :14:37.whether there is a public interest in continuing with these cases". Did
:14:38. > :14:48.you think it was right in these cases but scores of Claude Rampage
:14:49. > :14:51.-- scores of policeman Rampage into your house in the middle of the
:14:52. > :14:56.night as if they were dealing with terrorists or gangsters? They had a
:14:57. > :15:01.reasonable suspicion that evidence was being destroyed. That's what
:15:02. > :15:06.they said in the court case. No, they weren't terrorists, as far as I
:15:07. > :15:09.know. I don't make anyone has ever accused Rebekah Brooks or Charlie
:15:10. > :15:14.Brooks of terrorism but the police had a reasonable suspicion that they
:15:15. > :15:22.needed an element of surprise. What do you make of all this? It's MS,
:15:23. > :15:28.isn't it? But in other countries, the security services, or others,
:15:29. > :15:37.record and tap politicians then leak it to the press. I wouldn't
:15:38. > :15:41.encourage anything! How interesting is the public in this in the long
:15:42. > :15:47.run? -- interested. Thank you. The Prime Minister appears to be
:15:48. > :15:50.on the verge of failure in his efforts to prevent the former
:15:51. > :15:53.Prime Minister of Luxembourg, Jean Claude Juncker, from being
:15:54. > :15:56.nominated as the next president EU leaders begin gathering
:15:57. > :16:03.for a two day summit today - first David Cameron is demanding that
:16:04. > :16:12.a vote take place at the summit - he wants other leaders to have to
:16:13. > :16:15.justify their support for Mr Juncker But, barring any last-minute
:16:16. > :16:18.disasters, Mr Juncker looks set to become one of the most
:16:19. > :16:21.powerful figures in Europe. And why is Britain
:16:22. > :16:25.so vehemently against him? Mr Juncker was Prime Minister
:16:26. > :16:35.of Luxembourg from 1995 to 2013. He was forced to resign after
:16:36. > :16:37.becoming embroiled in a wiretapping scandal involving the country's
:16:38. > :16:49.intelligence service SREL. He belongs to Luxembourg's
:16:50. > :16:51.centre-right Christian Democrat But he's suspicious
:16:52. > :16:54.of always pursuing free-market solutions and has been described
:16:55. > :16:56.as "the most socialist From 2005 to 2013 he chaired
:16:57. > :17:00.the Eurogroup of finance ministers At the heart
:17:01. > :17:12.of EU decision-making for so long In May 2011, he told a meeting
:17:13. > :17:16.of the federalist European Movement that he often "had to lie" and that
:17:17. > :17:19.eurozone monetary policy should be It's also well known that Mr Juncker
:17:20. > :17:29.is partial to a glass of wine and the odd cigarette, even leading him
:17:30. > :17:35.to deny that he had a drink problem. In March the centre-right grouping
:17:36. > :17:43.in the European Parliament the EPP chose him as their candidate to be
:17:44. > :17:48.the next President of the European He has pledged "to give
:17:49. > :17:56.an answer to the British question." But he says,
:17:57. > :18:00."My red line in such talks would be the integrity of the single market
:18:01. > :18:05.and its four freedoms." Well, joining me now is Dirk Hazell,
:18:06. > :18:11.leader of the 4 Freedoms Party or UK EPP - it's a pro-EU, centre right
:18:12. > :18:16.party which contested the recent And we're also joined by one
:18:17. > :18:33.of UKIP's new MEPs, Tim Aker. It's all a bit confusing! You should
:18:34. > :18:38.make your name is a bit more different so we could see exactly
:18:39. > :18:41.what you are. I think it's fair to say Mr Younger has not had the best
:18:42. > :18:47.of the British press. Are we all wrong about him? The fact of the
:18:48. > :18:51.matter is that we have a treaty framework which was agreed by the
:18:52. > :18:56.British Parliament. We've had a European election conducted under
:18:57. > :18:58.that treaty framework. All the serious EU parties were clear about
:18:59. > :19:03.that and he is the winning candidate. Having both been in the
:19:04. > :19:09.Conservative party when Mr Cameron was selected and in the EBP when Mr
:19:10. > :19:15.Younger was selected, Mr Younger's selection process was at least as
:19:16. > :19:18.clean and democratic as Mr Cameron's why would you pick a man
:19:19. > :19:28.who had to quit as Prime Minister after being involved in a scandal
:19:29. > :19:31.and has had to lie? The decisions on monetary seizure shouldn't always be
:19:32. > :19:38.conducted in the full light of publicity, according to Mr Juncker.
:19:39. > :19:44.I think he has a point. He was talking about when issues become
:19:45. > :19:48.serious. He said you have to lie. And we have no lies ever from
:19:49. > :19:52.British politicians, do we? You can't ask me that doing this
:19:53. > :19:56.programme. But why would you have someone who says that sometimes you
:19:57. > :20:01.have to lie and thinks that most things should be in secret, dark
:20:02. > :20:04.debates. Some of this is very difficult. He has been confronted
:20:05. > :20:10.once or twice about English, which is not his native language. But he
:20:11. > :20:16.is, in person, engaging and formidable. And the really relevant
:20:17. > :20:20.point is that he stood on a very transparent 5-point action
:20:21. > :20:24.programme. What should have been happening over the last month,
:20:25. > :20:29.instead of these spinning techniques coming out of Number Ten, we should
:20:30. > :20:33.have had a very firm focus on getting British people in the right
:20:34. > :20:37.places in a Juncker commission to see through the 5-point action plan,
:20:38. > :20:49.which is focused on getting millions of people back into work. Tim, you
:20:50. > :20:53.must be quite pleased. It's business as usual over there, isn't it? It's
:20:54. > :21:02.a sign that David Cameron's renegotiation efforts have the first
:21:03. > :21:04.real test of getting European ministers to sign up to his
:21:05. > :21:08.programme and it looks like they've turned against him. At one point it
:21:09. > :21:12.looked like he was getting them on side and there might be a rival
:21:13. > :21:19.candidate but now it's fallen apart around him and Juncker seems to be
:21:20. > :21:22.the favourite to go forward. Cameron said that if he becomes the
:21:23. > :21:28.commission president, it could lead to the UK "drifting towards the
:21:29. > :21:33.exit". I think there's political symbolism in this, the fact that
:21:34. > :21:36.Cameron has been unable to block a candidate that represents what most
:21:37. > :21:44.Brits would consider wrong with the EU in the first place. There are tee
:21:45. > :21:48.separate issues. On the one hand, it is personality. Juncker may be as
:21:49. > :21:53.unhelpful as any other commission president that has been a candidate
:21:54. > :21:58.who has been taught about. That's the substance but the principle, the
:21:59. > :22:04.president, is not very good. This idea that Younger is -- Juncker is
:22:05. > :22:10.on some kind of democratic mandate is silly. 9.7% of the European
:22:11. > :22:14.electorate voted for parties that were, in theory, affiliated with the
:22:15. > :22:20.centre-right political European Parliament. Most opinion polls show
:22:21. > :22:27.that a minority of them actually knew who Juncker was. In Germany, 7%
:22:28. > :22:33.could identify Juncker. More Germans believe in ghosts than that. The
:22:34. > :22:38.opinion polls drifted in Germany as awareness group. The trouble is,
:22:39. > :22:46.with the way Mr Cameron has mishandled this... That's your
:22:47. > :22:49.opinion. It has had the effect of greatly strengthening the strength
:22:50. > :22:59.of opinion behind Juncker, which has made it very much more difficult.
:23:00. > :23:02.What choice did he have? I've been amazed that you managed to find
:23:03. > :23:11.someone who is pro-Juncker. He has no legitimacy in this country. The
:23:12. > :23:18.Lib Dems back the other guy and the Tories are not part of the EP P who
:23:19. > :23:26.nominated. That is precisely my point because the real issue... He
:23:27. > :23:32.had no choice. The real issue, as you have admitted in print, is that
:23:33. > :23:37.Cameron left the EP P. If Britain is going to be in the EU, the three
:23:38. > :23:45.main parties should be in it. What lessons do you take from all this?
:23:46. > :23:48.It's Christmas early for you! Yeah, it's Christmas come early. A
:23:49. > :23:53.federalist who thinks more Europe is the solution. What you've been
:23:54. > :24:00.talking about with Juncker and the 5-point plan... UKIP coming top in
:24:01. > :24:07.the European elections means that your agenda is way off course. We're
:24:08. > :24:08.heading for the exit door. There we are. We'll see if you're right.
:24:09. > :24:11.Thanks for joining us. Now, do you you know your Centre
:24:12. > :24:14.for European Reform from your centre Your European Policy Centre
:24:15. > :24:18.from your European Policy Forum? But fear not,
:24:19. > :24:20.our reporter Adam lives, breathes and quite often hangs
:24:21. > :24:36.around outside some of the many, Come with me. No need to go to
:24:37. > :24:43.Brussels, when there's so much Europe a short stroll from your
:24:44. > :24:49.office. Behind this tour, you'll find the centre for European reform,
:24:50. > :25:01.a Europhile think tank. Just round the corner, above the Faith Society,
:25:02. > :25:03.you'll find Open Europe. They have a team of multilingual researchers who
:25:04. > :25:09.translate all the European press so you don't have to. Just down the
:25:10. > :25:19.road, you will find Business For Britain, which is pro-reform and
:25:20. > :25:23.pro-Britain. Under all this scaffolding, under the new campaign
:25:24. > :25:27.group called British Influence, which describes itself as a
:25:28. > :25:31.cross-party pro-EU membership organisation. Time to head further
:25:32. > :25:43.afield. In these offices, you will find the
:25:44. > :25:53.extremely pro-EU group Business For New Europe, Either? Run A Europhile
:25:54. > :25:58.Businessman. On Regent Street, The Office Of The Very Euro-sceptic
:25:59. > :26:08.Bruges Group, Inspired By Margaret Thatcher's Speech Of The 1980s. Then
:26:09. > :26:14.there are groups that are no longer with us like Britain in Europe,
:26:15. > :26:19.which united big names in support of the euro, or its antithesis,
:26:20. > :26:29.Business for sterling. I didn't have time to visit some, but now to the
:26:30. > :26:33.better off out campaign, an offshoot of the freedom association, a bunch
:26:34. > :26:43.of libertarians. Their offices on that vote. -- their office is on
:26:44. > :26:49.that vote. I've heard there is a bar on board stop don't make the mistake
:26:50. > :26:56.as me. How are you different from Get Britain Out? They put their
:26:57. > :27:01.case, we put our case, but we look to emphasise the positives.
:27:02. > :27:05.And finally, the EU has its own presence here, in the form of Europe
:27:06. > :27:10.House, where you can get all sorts of literature. And no peace would be
:27:11. > :27:16.complete without pointing out that this used to be Tory central office.
:27:17. > :27:22.Adam is now lying down in a dark room to recover. Here is a test for
:27:23. > :27:26.you. Which is the odd one out? Open Europe, centre the European reform,
:27:27. > :27:32.friends of Europe or the Bruges group? Open Europe because of those
:27:33. > :27:36.groups we get the most things right. No, the Bruges group because it is
:27:37. > :27:40.the only one that advocates withdrawal from the union. What have
:27:41. > :27:45.you achieved in ten years? We've moved the debate. We were right on
:27:46. > :27:49.the euro. We said it would be a mistake for Britain to join and we
:27:50. > :27:52.were right. In many ways, everyone is now where we were several years
:27:53. > :27:57.ago, which is talking about the need for reform and in that sense we set
:27:58. > :28:03.the terms of the debate. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate Mr
:28:04. > :28:09.Cameron's chances of getting some real repatriations? On a scale of
:28:10. > :28:14.one to ten, between a six and a seven. You think he might do it?
:28:15. > :28:21.Absolutely. It depends on a number of factors but Mr Juncker is not the
:28:22. > :28:29.main match. It is the warm up. There is a lot still to come in this
:28:30. > :28:42.Europe debate. We will have a lot of business in future. That's it for
:28:43. > :28:48.today. I'll be back with This Week tonight. That's after Question Time
:28:49. > :28:52.on BBC One tonight. I'll be back tomorrow at 11am with all the big
:28:53. > :28:53.political stories of the day and on Newsnight tomorrow on BBC Two.
:28:54. > :29:00.Goodbye.