:00:37. > :00:40.Welcome to this special edition of the Daily Politics,
:00:41. > :00:51.So, will the Kingdom stay united or does Scotland go it's own way?
:00:52. > :00:54.The polls and the bookies favour the union.
:00:55. > :00:56.But Nationalists say don't underestimate this man, Alex
:00:57. > :01:05.He has a habit of confounding the pollsters and the bookies.
:01:06. > :01:07.Scottish voters have been bombarded with stats and spin.
:01:08. > :01:13.Many say they're also bamboozled - and some have even managed to avoid
:01:14. > :01:21.the whole thing all together, as our Adam's been finding out.
:01:22. > :01:25.You don't know what it is? The independence referendum? I've never
:01:26. > :01:28.heard anything of it. And here in Westminster, a committee
:01:29. > :01:31.of MPs says the taxpayer lost ?1 Was the 500-year-old business
:01:32. > :01:34.sold off too cheap? Is the Government's flagship
:01:35. > :01:36.universal credit programme Labour say so -
:01:37. > :01:39.the Government insist not. And with us
:01:40. > :01:52.for the whole programme today are Lesley Riddoch from the Scotsman
:01:53. > :02:07.and Alex Massie from the Spectator. Ten weeks to go. Some of the state
:02:08. > :02:12.of the campaign as you see it. There are two campaigns, the official one
:02:13. > :02:15.full of party leaders, Alex Salmond, keynote speakers. There is a
:02:16. > :02:20.grassroots one happening all over the country. I've been at 107
:02:21. > :02:26.meetings since September the 9th. I've been counting. That's a lot!
:02:27. > :02:30.Change happens in different ways. It can happen a little all over the
:02:31. > :02:34.place and underneath the radar. Is there a difference between the two
:02:35. > :02:40.campaigns? A difference in tone and what is being said? Yes. The yes
:02:41. > :02:44.campaign is a generally optimistic, buoyant one. It has to be because it
:02:45. > :02:50.is looking to a different future. But the no campaign is a might is
:02:51. > :02:54.right campaign. How would you sum up the state of the campaign ten weeks
:02:55. > :02:58.to go? Well, the state of the campaign is that the yes side are
:02:59. > :03:01.losing. On that everyone agrees. There is a difference between
:03:02. > :03:05.pollsters as to exactly by how much the yes campaign are losing but, at
:03:06. > :03:10.the moment, it's quite clear that no are winning. It's a bit like if
:03:11. > :03:15.you're playing roulette. You have ten spins of the wheel and if the
:03:16. > :03:20.yes side bets on red, they need Reg to come up seven or eight times of
:03:21. > :03:24.ten if they are to prevail. They say the polls are long, are skewed, not
:03:25. > :03:32.capturing the mood on the ground. That could be true but this is not a
:03:33. > :03:36.question where you have 100 things the pollsters have to try and find.
:03:37. > :03:39.Are you worried that the yes campaign has lost momentum? They
:03:40. > :03:47.seemed to have been doing very well in the spring and then the gap began
:03:48. > :03:50.to widen again. I know people say this when they are perceived to be
:03:51. > :03:53.on the losing end of opinion polls but they do fluctuate a locked and
:03:54. > :03:58.the key things are, for example, things like the missing million.
:03:59. > :04:03.There are folk who have never voted in Scotland in the large housing
:04:04. > :04:07.estate. They've been canvassed by some young folk and they have been
:04:08. > :04:13.incredibly insubordinate independent if they turn out. Which is
:04:14. > :04:18.interesting, and we don't know. -- incredibly supportive of
:04:19. > :04:21.independence. Has there been a compelling and agreed case for the
:04:22. > :04:28.union? That is a concern. It runs on the
:04:29. > :04:31.risks of uncertainties of independence but they are not
:04:32. > :04:34.necessarily a case against independence or for the union and
:04:35. > :04:42.it's true that the no campaign has relied more on dreary pros rather
:04:43. > :04:51.than Ellie element of pro-tree. -- any element of poetry. The
:04:52. > :04:52.referendum is on September the 18th. The campaign has been going on
:04:53. > :04:54.for ever. But we'll soon be moving
:04:55. > :04:57.into the final stretch. So let's have a look
:04:58. > :05:00.at how the polls are shaping up. Only those on the Scottish
:05:01. > :05:02.electoral register can vote. They will be asked
:05:03. > :05:10.a simple question - should Scotland But in together each of the last
:05:11. > :05:16.polls put together by this six main polling comprising Scotland and
:05:17. > :05:21.leaving aside those who don't know, 43% intend to vote yes to
:05:22. > :05:27.independence with 57% intending to vote no. 48% of men said they would
:05:28. > :05:35.vote yes, compared to 38% women. Older people need more persuasion on
:05:36. > :05:41.the independence merits. 64% of over 60 said they would vote no with 36
:05:42. > :05:47.saying they would vote yes. This will be the first national action
:05:48. > :05:50.where 16 and 17-year-olds are able to vote. What do they think? That is
:05:51. > :06:05.not good news for the yes campaign either. Taking out the undecided,
:06:06. > :06:06.36% said they would vote yes and 64% said no. What of English people
:06:07. > :06:08.living in Scotland? There are nearly 400,000 people born in England but
:06:09. > :06:11.living in Scotland, about 8% of the population, with only about a
:06:12. > :06:17.quarter of them intending to vote yes for independence.
:06:18. > :06:18.We're joined now by Professor John Curtice,
:06:19. > :06:21.from Strathclyde University, who knows exactly what Scotland thinks,
:06:22. > :06:35.Your latest poll of polls has yes on 43, no on 57, so roughly 65 and 40.
:06:36. > :06:42.That would suggest the campaign hasn't changed much. -- 60-40. But
:06:43. > :06:47.it has been generating excitement and interest. If we go back to last
:06:48. > :06:50.Christmas before the Scottish Government published its White Paper
:06:51. > :06:55.on independence, the polls were pointing on average to something
:06:56. > :07:02.like 61% for no and 39% four yes. All the opinion polls agree that
:07:03. > :07:08.during the winter, the yes side made progress such that by the end of
:07:09. > :07:13.March we were all looking at around 53% for the yes side. The worry for
:07:14. > :07:17.the yes side is that it's much less clear that they've made much
:07:18. > :07:21.progress since the end of March, in other words the second quarter of
:07:22. > :07:26.2014, which is not looking anything like as good as the first quarter
:07:27. > :07:30.and with just over two months to go, they have a long way to go. The
:07:31. > :07:34.second reason we have uncertainty and why this campaign will be fought
:07:35. > :07:39.very strongly to the end is that the polls do not all agree with each
:07:40. > :07:45.other. 43% is an average of some polls that say it is between 45 and
:07:46. > :07:50.47 and a poll out this morning says it is 47, another says it is 41, 42.
:07:51. > :07:54.We don't know which of those sets of results is more accurate. If only
:07:55. > :07:59.men had the vote, Scotland would be independent. If only men had the
:08:00. > :08:04.vote there would be a very tight race. Some of the polls suggest that
:08:05. > :08:10.a majority of men are in favour and there is an enormous gender gap and
:08:11. > :08:14.this is a gap which has long been noticed in Scottish politics so far
:08:15. > :08:19.as willingness to vote for the SMB and support for independence. That
:08:20. > :08:27.gap seems to have remained constant. -- the SNP. Does the polling tell us
:08:28. > :08:32.why women are more resistant? Two reasons seem to emerge. One is that
:08:33. > :08:38.women are more likely to feel the consequences of independence are
:08:39. > :08:42.uncertain and voters who think they are uncertain are less likely to
:08:43. > :08:48.vote yes, weathermen or woman. Secondly, women seem to be less
:08:49. > :08:50.convinced that independence will bring economic benefits to Scotland
:08:51. > :08:56.and all the issues the campaign is about, the one that matters most to
:08:57. > :09:02.voters is whether they think independence will be economically
:09:03. > :09:06.beneficial or not. If the yes side are going to win, that is the issue
:09:07. > :09:10.on which they need to make progress above all. Why is the independence
:09:11. > :09:15.campaign struggling to get women's votes? Or women are more able to say
:09:16. > :09:20.when they don't know than men. You think a bigger number of them are
:09:21. > :09:25.saying they don't know? They are more likely relatively to say yes.
:09:26. > :09:30.If I can get a word in... The point is that when you say something, you
:09:31. > :09:34.can get folk jumping down your throat. It is very much easier to
:09:35. > :09:38.keep your powder dry and hide behind what ever vote responses going to
:09:39. > :09:43.keep some distance and allow you to have time to think things through
:09:44. > :09:48.and I think it's no coincidence that Christmas allowed a bit of a Philip
:09:49. > :09:51.for the yes campaign because it allowed intimate, ordinary campaigns
:09:52. > :09:57.between people that were sincere and less localised. You get the very
:09:58. > :10:04.contested public space and I think tactically everyone ran screaming
:10:05. > :10:07.from it. They are not running, they are saying no. The view on the yes
:10:08. > :10:14.side is that if you can move people a little bit over time, that is
:10:15. > :10:18.good. Time is running out but the opinion polls wouldn't have even put
:10:19. > :10:19.us here because they wouldn't have predicted the last two SNP election
:10:20. > :10:26.victories. Has it come predicted the last two SNP election
:10:27. > :10:32.Alex Salmond that young folk are not anywhere near as enthusiastic about
:10:33. > :10:37.independence as he thought? It might be a disappointment but in truth it
:10:38. > :10:42.was always a mistake to assume that the SMB and franchised 16 and
:10:43. > :10:46.17-year-olds on the grounds that it would be to their benefit. I think
:10:47. > :10:56.we have to accept that they believe in principle that they should have
:10:57. > :10:59.the vote. I'm suggesting to you that it was not the principal
:11:00. > :11:02.motivation. Here is one example where probably a government did
:11:03. > :11:06.something because it believed in it rather than necessarily because it
:11:07. > :11:10.simply thought it was to its own benefit. Are you surprised that
:11:11. > :11:15.young people are distinctly less in favour of independence than their
:11:16. > :11:18.parents? Not necessarily because young people have grown up in an era
:11:19. > :11:22.where you have the Scottish parliament in Edinburgh, where some
:11:23. > :11:26.of the political aspirations of the Scottish people have been met,
:11:27. > :11:31.whereas people in their late 30s and so on were the generation that were
:11:32. > :11:34.campaigning for that Parliament and so the institutional apparatus of
:11:35. > :11:39.Scottish politics is perhaps more important than it is for newly
:11:40. > :11:45.franchised young people. It's also the case that we don't really know
:11:46. > :11:49.exactly how many 16, 17 and 18-year-olds are all that engaged
:11:50. > :11:54.with politics anyway. They tend not to vote in huge numbers but I'm
:11:55. > :11:58.surprised that they are not more nationalist minded. There is still a
:11:59. > :12:01.large chunk of those who don't know in all the polls, a decent amount.
:12:02. > :12:08.The Nationalists are kind of betting the farm on the don't knows skewing
:12:09. > :12:13.their way. But I noticed a recent polls adjusted they were actually
:12:14. > :12:18.falling away of people that had already made up their minds. We had
:12:19. > :12:21.a couple of opinion polls today and one last weekend which suggest that
:12:22. > :12:26.the number of don't knows, which are not particularly large, look as
:12:27. > :12:32.though they are beginning to come down and the truth is that so far
:12:33. > :12:37.the evidence is that if they are coming down it isn't making any
:12:38. > :12:40.difference at all to the relative strength of yes and no so if the yes
:12:41. > :12:45.side were hoping to gain from the decisions of the undecided, there
:12:46. > :12:49.isn't any evidence of that so far. One final question. You hear it said
:12:50. > :12:53.again and again by those in favour of independence and the SNP and
:12:54. > :12:56.their supporters in the media that in 2011, ten weeks before the
:12:57. > :13:00.Hollywood elections to the parliament here, Labour had a
:13:01. > :13:05.double-digit lead over the SNP but Alex Salmond went on to win by 18
:13:06. > :13:11.points. Is that relevant to where we are now? Not entirely because it is
:13:12. > :13:14.very clear that why that happened in 2011 is that the Labour Party messed
:13:15. > :13:18.up its election campaign and it was a judgement on the failure of the
:13:19. > :13:22.Labour Party, together with the fact that people think the SNP have been
:13:23. > :13:25.rather good at governing Scotland. But if you look at what happened to
:13:26. > :13:31.the opinion polls during that campaign, you discover that they did
:13:32. > :13:35.identify a swing to the SNP but at the same time no swing in terms of
:13:36. > :13:39.more people being in favour of independence. The SNP won because
:13:40. > :13:42.they were regarded as capable of providing Scotland with government,
:13:43. > :13:44.not because it was a vote in favour of independence. Thanks for joining
:13:45. > :13:49.us. Let's go back to Joe in London. Now, here in Westminster a
:13:50. > :13:52.cross-party group of MPs is accusing the Government of making a royal
:13:53. > :13:55.mess of the Royal Mail sell-off. The Business Select Committee says
:13:56. > :13:58.that poor advice and a fear of failure
:13:59. > :13:59.on the Government's part caused the Royal Mail to be significantly
:14:00. > :14:02.undervalued - depriving taxpayers Business Secretary Vince Cable,
:14:03. > :14:04.who oversaw the sale, was defended by his boss Nick Clegg
:14:05. > :14:19.on LBC radio this morning. Share prices gyrate wildly and the
:14:20. > :14:23.Royal Mail's share prices have gyrated wildly and will continue to
:14:24. > :14:27.do so, I suspect the stop there has been a 25 per cent drop in the share
:14:28. > :14:32.price. The idea that Vince cable, wise though he is, should be a
:14:33. > :14:35.soothsayer and should have been able to predict that, I think is
:14:36. > :14:38.something... And by the way, in the process, he's given thousands of
:14:39. > :14:40.people working in Royal Mail a piece of it.
:14:41. > :14:42.Well, here in the studio are Billy Hayes, General Secretary
:14:43. > :14:44.of the Communication Workers Union, which represents postal workers,
:14:45. > :14:47.and Adam Memon from the Centre for Policy Studies - a think tank
:14:48. > :15:07.Welcome to both of you. A stake in the Royal Mail. The taxpayer me have
:15:08. > :15:07.been short-changed but postal workers got almost 3500 free shares
:15:08. > :15:07.each in a workers got almost 3500 free shares
:15:08. > :15:10.done well. Postal workers were given the Royal Mail. The taxpayer me have
:15:11. > :15:15.been short-changed but shares as an attempt to buy them off. When we
:15:16. > :15:22.polled our members, they were against privatisation. Vince Cable
:15:23. > :15:26.says it is all about hindsight. What is clear is that Vince Cable never
:15:27. > :15:29.had foresight. He lost the British public ?1 billion. If you are a
:15:30. > :15:33.postal worker and you lost an important package and you face the
:15:34. > :15:43.prospect of the SAC... Vince Cable has an opinion on everything. Postal
:15:44. > :15:48.workers have done well, haven't they? If you calculated how much
:15:49. > :15:52.they would make, they would make ?5,000. Not many people would say
:15:53. > :16:02.that was a bad deal. I think they would. Really? ? Only 368 turned the
:16:03. > :16:09.shares down. They did not have a choice. They did not have to do
:16:10. > :16:17.anything. The shares were put in their pay packet. Both the workers
:16:18. > :16:20.were against the sale of Royal Mail. 60% of the British public from all
:16:21. > :16:25.parties were opposed to the sale of Royal Mail. Vince Cable made a
:16:26. > :16:33.botched sale, he panicked, he did not have the foresight and he is
:16:34. > :16:36.trying to blame everybody else. It looks a bit of a disaster for
:16:37. > :16:49.taxpayers of a committee of MPs have said it was -- it was undersold.
:16:50. > :16:53.This is ?2 billion that taxpayers have got which they otherwise would
:16:54. > :16:56.not have. As the National Audit Office says taxpayers are no longer
:16:57. > :17:03.liable for the losses Royal Mail me or may not make. If you look back at
:17:04. > :17:08.what Royal Mail was doing in the past, yes, they are making profits,
:17:09. > :17:15.but after so many decades of trying to do that, finally the government
:17:16. > :17:18.has been able to do this, and the ordinary people who have bought
:17:19. > :17:24.these shows, many of whom have not bought shares before, these are
:17:25. > :17:29.average people who have benefited. If you are saying it was a
:17:30. > :17:34.successful thing to do, the price has rose as high as 1600 and 18p,
:17:35. > :17:40.how did he get it so wrong in terms of how to price it? The share price
:17:41. > :17:44.is a reflection of expectations of future earnings. Partly it is
:17:45. > :17:51.because of the fact that so many employers decided to accept --
:17:52. > :17:56.employees decided to accept these shares which meant strike action was
:17:57. > :18:00.unlikely and it was more stable and investors see that and see it as a
:18:01. > :18:04.better bet and a good opportunity to invest. The fact that the share
:18:05. > :18:11.price has gone up is not a bad thing. It means the 700,000 people
:18:12. > :18:13.across the country are benefiting. These are not institutional
:18:14. > :18:19.investors, these are people on average incomes. What do you say to
:18:20. > :18:23.that? I know you have said hindsight is a wonderful thing, but could you
:18:24. > :18:27.or I have estimated how much we could have got for selling off Royal
:18:28. > :18:32.Mail and the figures that have been given sure that long-term it could
:18:33. > :18:38.be very successful? I am not a city banker. I am not an institution
:18:39. > :18:44.advice in the government on the sale and then another section of my
:18:45. > :18:48.company making a profit on the sale. I do not know if you run a business,
:18:49. > :18:52.but if I had something for sale that was worth ?3 billion and I sold it
:18:53. > :18:58.for ?2 billion and then I argued that is good for me because I made
:18:59. > :19:04.?2 billion... It was sold. There was a doubt about whether you could
:19:05. > :19:07.sell. Absolutely. It was almost free money. The company was worth a lot
:19:08. > :19:15.more. City institutions got it wrong. 24 times oversubscribed. The
:19:16. > :19:21.great British public lost ?1 billion. The point you made earlier,
:19:22. > :19:28.the company 's which were advising and the companies which sold
:19:29. > :19:34.them... The indication was there was a conflict-of-interest. That is
:19:35. > :19:38.quite a big allegation. I do not know, but it seems odd to me that a
:19:39. > :19:43.company that is advising on the sale on one hand and another part of the
:19:44. > :19:50.company is benefiting and the select committee said there was not... You
:19:51. > :19:58.think there was? The ordinary person in the street would not understand
:19:59. > :20:04.somebody advising and benefiting. It is wrong of you to say that. There
:20:05. > :20:10.are firewalls. If you are saying they have broken firewalls and
:20:11. > :20:18.committed mass corporate fraud... I am saying if there was not a problem
:20:19. > :20:24.why has Vince Cable ask someone to come in and look at what happened?
:20:25. > :20:30.Everybody recognises it was botched. Not everybody. The National Audit
:20:31. > :20:34.Office. Vince Cable himself is looking at the sale and that is a
:20:35. > :20:42.little bit like judging your all homework, but the fact is that ?1
:20:43. > :20:45.billion went adrift. Let us ask about the pension liability, that
:20:46. > :20:52.had to be put onto the taxpayer. That is not great for the taxpayer.
:20:53. > :20:56.Not in the long term but obviously it is not desirable but it had to be
:20:57. > :21:00.done to get the Royal Mail into the market. It is a necessary cost
:21:01. > :21:04.because of the benefit of having the Royal Mail in the market in terms of
:21:05. > :21:08.the freedom it gives it and the people who benefited from
:21:09. > :21:13.investing, the employees, all of that is worthwhile. We only have a
:21:14. > :21:19.few seconds, you said it would destroy the Postal Service, has it?
:21:20. > :21:23.Look at what has happened to Post Office counters today. It is going
:21:24. > :21:29.to cause major problems. It has not done so, has it? They are talking
:21:30. > :21:36.about universal sale, Vince Cable should be sacked.
:21:37. > :21:38.Labour used to rule the roost here in Scotland.
:21:39. > :21:42.In 2011 the Nationalists did what the voting system was
:21:43. > :21:46.They won a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament.
:21:47. > :21:48.Scottish Labour is now the largest opposition party.
:21:49. > :21:55.I'm joined by their leader, Johann Lamont.
:21:56. > :22:01.Alistair Darling said this week that the red percussion is of a yes vote
:22:02. > :22:09.would be worse than the 2008 banking crisis for Scotland. More of the
:22:10. > :22:13.same scaremongering. I do not think it is scaremongering. I think it is
:22:14. > :22:17.important to be put out there what the consequences are. How would he
:22:18. > :22:20.know? Regardless of what the consequence would be people would
:22:21. > :22:24.want Scotland to be a separate country, I understand the passion,
:22:25. > :22:29.but on the other said it is important for the ball who are not
:22:30. > :22:32.sure to understand the scale of the challenge we would be facing --
:22:33. > :22:41.people. There would have to be cuts or taxes. That may or may not be
:22:42. > :22:47.true but that is not a 2008 scale banking crisis. How would anybody
:22:48. > :22:51.know that would be a consequence? He was a great deal closer to the
:22:52. > :22:59.banking crisis than I was so I would respect what he says. I love the
:23:00. > :23:03.fact that I live in a country where I can be Scottish, proud of my
:23:04. > :23:08.identity, my many identities, a Glaswegian and an islander, and be
:23:09. > :23:12.part of the country where we can work together, find ways of sorting
:23:13. > :23:19.out our differences, and in tough times we can share a re-source, and
:23:20. > :23:23.cool resource and risk. There are many people who feel the same and
:23:24. > :23:28.said to me, please tell people we feel is passionately about being in
:23:29. > :23:33.the United Kingdom as the yes people feel about Scotland leaving. Only
:23:34. > :23:38.23% of Scots regard themselves as British. What label you put on
:23:39. > :23:46.yourself is not the same as how people feel... It tells you how you
:23:47. > :23:50.feel... You feel Glaswegian. I call myself Glaswegian because it is
:23:51. > :23:57.where I was born. I, is self an islander because that is where my
:23:58. > :23:59.heart is. I know that very many people look at the United Kingdom
:24:00. > :24:04.and think we have achieved something pretty special. It is finding a way
:24:05. > :24:12.of protecting our Scottish institutions... As John Curtis
:24:13. > :24:15.explained to us, Labour was well ahead in the polls against Alex
:24:16. > :24:22.Salmond, you spectacularly collapsed and Alex Salmond won an overall
:24:23. > :24:27.majority. What is to stop another spectacular collapse? That is why we
:24:28. > :24:41.are far from complacent, out every gay. -- day. We know that in our
:24:42. > :24:45.hearts we do not have the confidence just to say that the polls are OK.
:24:46. > :24:50.The polls tell us something important but it will never be a
:24:51. > :24:54.substitute for talking to people and arguing and listening to what they
:24:55. > :24:57.are saying. The polls tell us that although you are the leader of the
:24:58. > :25:05.biggest party against independence only for 2% of Scots now you do you
:25:06. > :25:14.are -- who you are. That is a work in progress. I will have a critical
:25:15. > :25:17.role, but the debate is beyond party. One of the things that has
:25:18. > :25:23.come to this is that when politicians argue with each other
:25:24. > :25:27.people stop listening. We need to make sure that the voices that are
:25:28. > :25:31.here are the people who understand the consequences for them and their
:25:32. > :25:38.families. How long have you been leader? Two and a half years. 64% of
:25:39. > :25:46.people in Scotland think Ed Miliband is doing badly. Why should they
:25:47. > :25:51.listen to him about independence? I was out with Ed Miliband on two
:25:52. > :25:58.occasions in Scotland. At the time of the carrier being launched and
:25:59. > :26:02.four armed services day and what struck me was how popular he is. The
:26:03. > :26:12.extent to which people want to come and speak to him. 64% of bee pollen
:26:13. > :26:18.Scotland said he is doing badly -- people in Scotland. The Scots think
:26:19. > :26:21.worse of him than in London. If you ask people what they think of as
:26:22. > :26:27.idea of taking on the big energy companies ripping them off, people
:26:28. > :26:34.support him. They are behind him on some of the very big issues. Talking
:26:35. > :26:38.about zero hours contracts, he is on the side of people and I see it
:26:39. > :26:44.myself in working with them. He has that passion to make sure that
:26:45. > :26:49.politics is about a different kind of way of doing business. It is not
:26:50. > :26:56.getting through in the polls. You may be right. If Scotland votes no,
:26:57. > :27:05.can you tell us, can you commit to what extra devolution Scotland would
:27:06. > :27:16.get? Our commitment is to add proposal... Two things, on one side
:27:17. > :27:21.is the importance, if you have a Parliament that does not have
:27:22. > :27:25.accountability for raising money you end up not taking on the really
:27:26. > :27:32.difficult debates. That is how your party designed it. We have to face
:27:33. > :27:38.that... I think in the early stages we put in tax-raising powers. The
:27:39. > :27:49.SNP allowed them to fall into disuse. It was not... The SNP said
:27:50. > :27:54.we could not use them. I think we should have tax raising powers. On
:27:55. > :27:57.the other side, I think the argument about powers should not be about
:27:58. > :28:03.institutions arguing with each other it is about how these are used. That
:28:04. > :28:08.is why we also talk about what it would take to meet the needs of
:28:09. > :28:12.cities so that we can have strong economies and what we do in the
:28:13. > :28:37.island communities. You say you want more tax-raising powers, dead Ed --
:28:38. > :28:41.did Ed Balls veto that? No. What we said in our interim report was that
:28:42. > :28:45.we would be ready to look and we tested it and what I wanted was on
:28:46. > :28:50.the one hand fiscal accountability at on the other hand you do not
:28:51. > :28:57.break that sharing, you do not create unnecessary tax... What about
:28:58. > :29:06.Phil devolution of income tax? We came to a conclusion that we struck
:29:07. > :29:09.the right balance between making sure there is accountability but
:29:10. > :29:13.also that we did not put ourselves in the place where we were losing
:29:14. > :29:23.the benefits of sharing resources. What was Ed Balls view on film did
:29:24. > :29:28.-- Phil devolution of income tax? I do not know. You cannot do it
:29:29. > :29:37.without the Shadow Chancellor agreeing. Of course we do. What did
:29:38. > :29:42.he say? Through the period between the interim report and the full
:29:43. > :29:45.report the conclusion became too across a united movement was that
:29:46. > :29:50.was the way to strike the balance. Your party told us that independence
:29:51. > :29:55.would be killed stone dead with Scottish devolution. That did not go
:29:56. > :30:00.according to plan. Why would more devolution kill independence? That
:30:01. > :30:13.was not the purpose. I was very clear, I said, the first thing the
:30:14. > :30:18.SNP will says it is not good enough. It's a more fundamental question. We
:30:19. > :30:21.would told by the Labour Party that if Scotland had its own parliament
:30:22. > :30:26.with a limited array of powers on domestic matters, that would kill
:30:27. > :30:32.independence stone dead. That was 1999. This is 2014 and we're having
:30:33. > :30:35.able referendum on independence. I didn't say would kill independence
:30:36. > :30:38.stone dead because you will never kill something stone dead simply by
:30:39. > :30:43.setting up an institution. You have to win the political argument. The
:30:44. > :30:47.argument is not between institutions but how they use power, how you get
:30:48. > :30:53.people involved and that's the debate we have to have, rather than
:30:54. > :30:59.one that just asks with stitch -- which institution is stronger. Let
:31:00. > :31:06.me get some thoughts on our journalists. You see the
:31:07. > :31:10.intellectual bankruptcy of the party which hasn't had a decent idea in
:31:11. > :31:16.years. Labour haven't really recovered from the shock of losing
:31:17. > :31:19.in 2007, let alone in 2011. It was a party that had the arrogance and
:31:20. > :31:25.complacency to think it spoke as the voice of the people. It turns out
:31:26. > :31:31.that the people actually don't think the Labour Party represent them. The
:31:32. > :31:35.SNP is Goldie of some of the same mistakes but Labour's devolution
:31:36. > :31:39.proposals are utterly incoherent. On the one hand they say that while we
:31:40. > :31:43.need to do something with income tax, they put in a mechanism that
:31:44. > :31:53.says they could only increase it, not decrease it. A quick thought
:31:54. > :31:58.from you? Scots have been voting for your party for the best part of 80
:31:59. > :32:02.years. That is distinctly different. A lot of folks south of the border
:32:03. > :32:08.can recognise that. It's not distinctly different. If I could
:32:09. > :32:13.finish... Andrew asked me a question. That's not the
:32:14. > :32:17.distinction. The reason we're sitting here today is not just
:32:18. > :32:21.opinion polls. It's not all of the rest of that. The question is, don't
:32:22. > :32:25.you recognise that the Scots want a social democracy and the rest of
:32:26. > :32:31.Britain doesn't? I don't see the world in that way. I think what has
:32:32. > :32:35.happened, when people rejected Tory politics across the UK, in some
:32:36. > :32:42.parts of England, historically, people in the North voted Labour and
:32:43. > :32:50.people in Scotland did. The SNP afforded people to vote for an --
:32:51. > :32:54.afforded people an opportunity to vote for another party. I can't
:32:55. > :32:58.accept your construction that says the people in Newcastle and Glasgow
:32:59. > :33:02.and Cardiff don't believe in the same things and warrior at the same
:33:03. > :33:09.things. Wires Gordon Brown not involved in the no camping? He is.
:33:10. > :33:14.He does his own thing. That's not true. He was at a Better Together
:33:15. > :33:23.event. He was at one recently. We were having a discussion. He is a
:33:24. > :33:26.powerhouse of ideas. A powerhouse? Yes, in terms of this campaign, as
:33:27. > :33:31.has Alistair Darling been. Are they speaking yet? Of course they are.
:33:32. > :33:35.More importantly, ordinary people right across the country are saying
:33:36. > :33:40.they want to hear more about this debate. Baxter Jo in London.
:33:41. > :33:42.The Government's flagship welfare reform - the introduction
:33:43. > :33:45.of a new universal credit, which it's promised will ensure that
:33:46. > :33:48.people are always better off in work, has been a long time coming.
:33:49. > :33:51.The Prime Minister has made it clear he was happy to see
:33:52. > :33:53.the project phased in slowly, to ensure any problems are ironed
:33:54. > :33:58.But this week more questions have been raised about universal credit's
:33:59. > :34:02.long-term future - with confusion over whether or not the Treasury has
:34:03. > :34:07.Labour tabled what's known as an urgent question
:34:08. > :34:21.There has been so much beating about the bush that it feels as if this
:34:22. > :34:26.House has been misled by a Government engaged in a deliberate
:34:27. > :34:32.act of deception. The truth is that the department is relying, month by
:34:33. > :34:36.month, on hand-outs from the... The truth is, the department is relying,
:34:37. > :34:43.month by month, on hand-outs from the national food bank. How ironic!
:34:44. > :34:49.Mr Speaker, that has been the most pompous, ludicrous statement that I
:34:50. > :34:54.have ever heard. I know what the right honourable gentleman did. He
:34:55. > :35:00.wrote this down before he heard the answer. I made it quite clear - and
:35:01. > :35:04.I stand by what I said - the strategic outline business case
:35:05. > :35:07.plans for this Parliament have been approved.
:35:08. > :35:10.We asked the Department for Work and Pensions for a minister
:35:11. > :35:13.I'm joined now from Leeds by Shadow Work and
:35:14. > :35:27.Welcome to the programme. We heard in that film but Chris Bryant -- we
:35:28. > :35:30.heard that film from Chris Bryant. Well see right or wrong when he said
:35:31. > :35:36.the House had been misled by the Government? He is absolutely right
:35:37. > :35:40.because four months, Iain Duncan Smith has been saying that universal
:35:41. > :35:43.credit and on budget and it clearly isn't and it took a civil servant to
:35:44. > :35:46.servant to come to Parliament last week and expose the fact that the
:35:47. > :35:52.Treasury still hadn't signed the business case. Universal credit is
:35:53. > :35:57.this Government's flagship welfare reform, merging six benefits and tax
:35:58. > :36:04.credits into one. We've always supported this in principle but so
:36:05. > :36:08.far the Government has been spending taxpayers' money for a benefit that
:36:09. > :36:12.now just over 6000 people are claiming it should have been over a
:36:13. > :36:15.million by now. There are serious questions to answer, which is why
:36:16. > :36:18.we've said the Government should call in the National Audit Office to
:36:19. > :36:21.do independent review to find out whether we can achieve value for
:36:22. > :36:26.money from this project or whether it should be abandoned. But you seem
:36:27. > :36:30.to be conflating two issues. On one hand, you say you support the
:36:31. > :36:33.universal credit programme in principle, on the other you say it's
:36:34. > :36:37.cost a lot of money, and then you say they haven't been given the
:36:38. > :36:41.money by the Treasury. As far as I understand it, the money has been
:36:42. > :36:45.released but it has been released in a gradual way. Surely you would want
:36:46. > :36:49.the programme to be given a blank cheque? I would want it to be rolled
:36:50. > :36:52.out gradually, absolutely, but before you start spending money on
:36:53. > :36:57.something you have to do a business case to work out whether you think
:36:58. > :37:00.the project is value for money. That happens in businesses and I worked
:37:01. > :37:04.in the business sector before I was an MP. You wouldn't start spending
:37:05. > :37:07.money on a project before you had confidence you were going to get
:37:08. > :37:12.value for money. That's what hasn't happened in the case of universal
:37:13. > :37:17.credit. New business case was submitted - because the first one
:37:18. > :37:20.had to be rewritten - at the end of last year and we are now into July
:37:21. > :37:26.and it hasn't been signed off and yet taxpayers' money is still being
:37:27. > :37:29.spent on this project, even though we have no reassurance that it is a
:37:30. > :37:33.chilly going to deliver value for money. That is the issue and the
:37:34. > :37:36.Prime Minister and Iain Duncan Smith need to urgently get a grip of this
:37:37. > :37:42.flagship welfare reform. But they are releasing the money, albeit bit
:37:43. > :37:46.by bit, and you've made your point about the business case, but what
:37:47. > :37:50.real difference does it actually make to the emperor mentation of the
:37:51. > :37:54.programme? As it's being rolled out, it gets the money every three or
:37:55. > :37:59.months. It doesn't actually change anything materially to the
:38:00. > :38:03.programme, does it? First of all, you shouldn't be spending
:38:04. > :38:07.taxpayers' money, our money, unless we have that certainty that it's
:38:08. > :38:12.going to deliver value for money. The second problem is that this is
:38:13. > :38:17.being rolled out at such a gradual rate that so few people are on it,
:38:18. > :38:23.?600 million has been spent so far and it has rolled out to just 6000
:38:24. > :38:29.people. That is around ?1000 per person... Sorry, ?100,000 per person
:38:30. > :38:31.on universal credit. It is costing a huge amount of money without that
:38:32. > :38:36.certainty that it is going to deliver value. Yes, roll it out
:38:37. > :38:41.gradually, but let's make sure that we're getting value for money and
:38:42. > :38:45.not throwing good money after bad. Would you argue that some of the
:38:46. > :38:49.programmes rolled out under Labour the last government were successful,
:38:50. > :38:57.like the tax credit system or the NHS IT system? If you look at tax
:38:58. > :39:00.credits, it helped to lift more than 600,000... But was the roll-out a
:39:01. > :39:05.success? There were massive problems. This Government need to
:39:06. > :39:10.learn from mistakes of the past and I'm not saying the last Labour
:39:11. > :39:14.government got everything right, but what I am saying is that this
:39:15. > :39:17.Government should not be spending money on a project when there no
:39:18. > :39:22.reassurance as it is going to deliver value for money and they
:39:23. > :39:26.need to learn lessons from past IT problems. We have said right from
:39:27. > :39:31.the beginning when the Government embarked on this in 2010 that there
:39:32. > :39:35.were very serious risks and that they needed to understand the risks
:39:36. > :39:42.before they started spending money. This is a ?12.8 billion programme,
:39:43. > :39:45.the largest IT project this Government is pursuing, and we know
:39:46. > :39:49.now - because of what a civil servant told us, not because of
:39:50. > :39:54.ministers - that the business case has been signed off and that is a
:39:55. > :39:57.huge worry. Of course cynics would say that you agree with that in
:39:58. > :40:03.principle and are using this to score points against the Government.
:40:04. > :40:07.You have called for a three-month pause in the universal credit
:40:08. > :40:12.roll-out if you come to power. How will that help it? At the moment,
:40:13. > :40:17.the Government are spending millions of pounds every month on universal
:40:18. > :40:21.credit. How would your pores improve the roll-out? If we paused it and we
:40:22. > :40:24.stopped spending that money, we could bring in the National Audit
:40:25. > :40:29.Office and do a full review of universal credit. That would cause
:40:30. > :40:33.chaos. What is causing chaos is a system where money is being spent on
:40:34. > :40:38.a project and we don't know if it will deliver value for money. Let's
:40:39. > :40:40.pause the spending of money and bring in the National Audit Office
:40:41. > :40:47.to assess whether the project can succeed. And if it said no, you
:40:48. > :40:51.would stop the? If they say it can't succeed, I'm not going to throw good
:40:52. > :40:55.money after bad. What about all those people that would have been
:40:56. > :40:59.put on the universal credit? A complicated manoeuvre as it was, you
:41:00. > :41:05.would stop it dead in its tracks? And what would you do with all those
:41:06. > :41:08.people who were on universal credit? As you know, fewer than 6000 people
:41:09. > :41:13.are on universal credit but if universal credit didn't succeed, the
:41:14. > :41:17.existing benefits that are still being paid today... Universal credit
:41:18. > :41:22.is only being paid out at a very small number of job centres for a
:41:23. > :41:26.tiny subset of claimants, so single people on job-seeker's allowance
:41:27. > :41:30.without children who don't own their own homes. It's only going to a
:41:31. > :41:34.small number of people. You could move people back to the existing
:41:35. > :41:37.benefits. We want universal credit to succeed but we think it will only
:41:38. > :41:42.succeed if we have greater transparency, and that's why we
:41:43. > :41:46.would pause it and call in the National Audit Office. That's how
:41:47. > :41:48.you get value for money for taxpayers. Thank you and with that,
:41:49. > :41:51.time to go back to Andrew. The turnout is predicted
:41:52. > :41:53.to be very high. But have most already made up
:41:54. > :41:56.their minds? Will the don't knows break
:41:57. > :42:00.differently from those who What do voters feel
:42:01. > :42:03.about the campaign? We sent Adam out with
:42:04. > :42:14.his scientific mood box. I've come to the seaside town of
:42:15. > :42:18.Largs on the West Coast of Scotland but don't worry, I've remembered the
:42:19. > :42:22.mood box. We are going to ask people if they feel informed or not about
:42:23. > :42:28.the referendum, though I'm not sure it's going to work on here!
:42:29. > :42:41.Informed or not? Yes, I am informed. Informed enough? Informed enough, I
:42:42. > :42:44.should think. I think he needs to give us some more answers, Alex
:42:45. > :42:48.Salmond, but I think we know a lot about it. Thank you very much. Where
:42:49. > :42:52.have you got most of your information from? Some through the
:42:53. > :42:59.postal stop I had a phone call. Who phoned you up? The SNP. Do you feel
:43:00. > :43:02.informed? Not totally because I still don't think they're telling
:43:03. > :43:04.the whole truth about the financial side.
:43:05. > :43:09.still don't think they're telling the whole truth about the I don't
:43:10. > :43:14.really know. I don't really think about. You don't even know what you
:43:15. > :43:17.don't know about? You don't know what it is? The independence
:43:18. > :43:27.referendum? I haven't heard anything of it? Have you been living in a
:43:28. > :43:31.cave? I don't really know until we actually make the decision. What
:43:32. > :43:38.does the UK Treasury say the union is worth per person in Scotland? The
:43:39. > :43:42.UK Treasury says ?1400. He is well-informed! That is what they
:43:43. > :43:50.say. What does the yes campaign say in return? I think they were trying
:43:51. > :43:53.to bump it up a bit. There is a Yes Scotland shop over there. I wonder
:43:54. > :44:00.if we will see any campaigners come to vote. Have you been doing a
:44:01. > :44:08.referendum at school? Yes. What have you learned? It's complicated. That
:44:09. > :44:11.is a very good summary! What is the most unbelievable thing you've
:44:12. > :44:16.heard? We can carry on with the pound. They save that we are going
:44:17. > :44:20.to have it on all the English guys are turning round and saying we're
:44:21. > :44:25.not, so what's it going to be? It's started raining. I know the perfect
:44:26. > :44:30.place to take cover, a famous Largs landmark.
:44:31. > :44:41.Do you feel informed and simultaneously not informed enough?
:44:42. > :44:46.Exactly. Informed. You are an expert? Oh, definitely. People are
:44:47. > :44:52.getting so overloaded, they're getting fed up with it. Everyone has
:44:53. > :44:56.their own opinion so I'm just waiting. I might say that's a little
:44:57. > :45:03.bit lazy. It's lazy but also... waiting. I might say that's a little
:45:04. > :45:13.Well, yeah, it's lazy. It's stopped raining now. Here comes the ferry
:45:14. > :45:19.from the island so loads of people should be about to get off. Do you
:45:20. > :45:23.feel informed about the referendum? Have you got enough information? No.
:45:24. > :45:26.What would you like to know? Everything. What is the crucial
:45:27. > :45:32.piece of information you'd like to know? How it's going to affect me
:45:33. > :45:36.and my grandchildren and the next one is coming up.
:45:37. > :45:40.About 50% of people say they don't feel very
:45:41. > :45:42.well informed about the referendum. No, I have left it behind!
:45:43. > :45:56.Bye! With us now is Blair Jenkins who
:45:57. > :46:08.leads the Yes Campaign. Why, according to the polls, our
:46:09. > :46:13.young Scots rejecting your independence message? That is not
:46:14. > :46:28.what the polls show. Normally we do well. It is 2-1. Not samples. --
:46:29. > :46:33.some polls. You have lost in every school in the country. That is
:46:34. > :46:40.untrue. I have taken part in some personally. You have lost the Bates.
:46:41. > :46:45.The average is that young Scots are to do one against independence. Why?
:46:46. > :46:50.I find that young Scots are very open to this debate. People are
:46:51. > :46:56.capable of changing their minds and move around perhaps more than the
:46:57. > :47:00.older part of the population. I am confident that young Scots will vote
:47:01. > :47:05.yes. Why are women rejecting the arguments for independence? I think
:47:06. > :47:13.women are going to make their minds up later than men, that may a
:47:14. > :47:26.sweeping statement. It is funny, I was in a public debate with someone
:47:27. > :47:29.who said that he thought 70% of the population were up for grabs, people
:47:30. > :47:41.who might change their minds -- Levantine percent. You would not
:47:42. > :47:44.push the parallel too much. It is the case that the gender gap for
:47:45. > :47:49.people who are going to vote SNP closed by polling day. It is
:47:50. > :47:55.worrying the Labour Party. You can see that. Maybe one of the reasons
:47:56. > :47:58.is uncertainty or risk because you say an independent Scotland should
:47:59. > :48:04.keep the pound, still have monetary union with the UK, continue seamless
:48:05. > :48:08.membership of the EU, membership of NATO, these are things Scotland has
:48:09. > :48:11.at the moment as part of the UK and although that is what you want, you
:48:12. > :48:17.cannot guarantee a single one of those things. You're right, and a
:48:18. > :48:20.couple of those at least it is not possible to be absolutely certain
:48:21. > :48:24.but the reason is evident and I think people are switching on to
:48:25. > :48:28.this, the reason for some of the uncertainty for things like the
:48:29. > :48:31.precise method by which we continue in EU membership is because the
:48:32. > :48:36.British government is the only one that can get that clarified at EU
:48:37. > :48:40.level and will not do it. You may say this is perfectly legitimate, we
:48:41. > :48:43.are up against the campaign whose main strategy is uncertainty and to
:48:44. > :48:52.maintain as much uncertainty as possible. As you sit here today,
:48:53. > :48:56.there's not one of these you can guarantee an independent Scotland
:48:57. > :49:01.would have. What we can guarantee is that an independent Scotland will
:49:02. > :49:06.get government it elects. I understand that. You cannot
:49:07. > :49:10.guarantee any of these things. I accept entirely for instance that
:49:11. > :49:14.the currency union is one. People are going to have to make up their
:49:15. > :49:17.minds who they trust. From every single poll that has been done
:49:18. > :49:20.people of Scotland trust the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish
:49:21. > :49:27.Government more than they trust the Westminster government. Let us take
:49:28. > :49:32.Scotland's membership of the EU. It is the Scottish Government's
:49:33. > :49:38.intention that it would do these negotiations, it says it would have
:49:39. > :49:42.to renegotiate while the negotiations with London are going
:49:43. > :49:49.on. EU membership could not be taken for granted. That is what the
:49:50. > :49:57.commission president said. He has said it could be very difficult.
:49:58. > :50:00.They -- he was dismissed but the new president has said that he agrees
:50:01. > :50:07.with him. Are you going to dismiss him? What he has been trying to do
:50:08. > :50:11.this week in various meetings is to say as little as possible about the
:50:12. > :50:14.Scottish referendum. He has said it is a decision for the people of
:50:15. > :50:20.Scotland that he and their EU will respect the outcome. You know what
:50:21. > :50:30.else he said? He has said many things. When asked if he agreed did
:50:31. > :50:37.not agree, with the President of the commission, he said, they were
:50:38. > :50:44.perfectly clear, I do not have to change a word as far as they --
:50:45. > :50:53.their declarations are concerned. Earlier this year when that was said
:50:54. > :51:00.we had people distancing themselves from his remarks. The reality of
:51:01. > :51:03.this is that there is will not be a legalistic decision taken by civil
:51:04. > :51:08.servants in the commission. It is a political decision which will be
:51:09. > :51:14.reached in the future of the EU. Are you dismissing what he said? I think
:51:15. > :51:20.he was very diplomatic. He agrees with his predecessor. I think it is
:51:21. > :51:24.incredible. It is incredible to think that the Beeb all Scotland
:51:25. > :51:28.exercise their right of self-determination, as I believe
:51:29. > :51:34.they well, that this will somehow lead to hostility, exclusion. That
:51:35. > :51:39.is not the issue. The issue is how long it may take. How -- what you
:51:40. > :51:48.may have to renegotiate and the different terms you may get. Getting
:51:49. > :51:50.a share of the British rebate. All the Scottish Government's
:51:51. > :51:53.calculations depend on oil revenues making up for the loss of public
:51:54. > :51:58.spending money that currently comes from the London Treasury. Every
:51:59. > :52:05.calculation the Scottish Government has made has overestimated oil
:52:06. > :52:10.revenues. Why should we trust you? Lots of people have it on different
:52:11. > :52:14.future projections. I am not talking about future projections. I am
:52:15. > :52:17.talking about projections the Scottish Government made in
:52:18. > :52:23.2010-2011 up until now the real malady of the revenues they got is a
:52:24. > :52:30.lot less -- reality. There were particular reasons. There are always
:52:31. > :52:36.reasons. That is right. Why should we trust you? The future off oil,
:52:37. > :52:41.one cannot be certain about the price, but one can be certain about
:52:42. > :52:45.the volume of oil that remains and the companies operating there are
:52:46. > :52:48.making regular of investment. There is every reason to believe that
:52:49. > :52:58.North Sea oil, which is not the basis of the argument for Scottish
:52:59. > :53:06.and -- Scottish independence, is very important. Higher than the UK
:53:07. > :53:11.average, the government is saying, we will get the oil revenues which
:53:12. > :53:16.currently go to London, we will be able to afford it, but if you're
:53:17. > :53:24.projections, you were out by almost ?4 billion... Not me personally. Not
:53:25. > :53:27.you personally. If you are owed by that much you cannot guarantee that
:53:28. > :53:33.these revenues will pay for your public spending. There were
:53:34. > :53:36.particular circumstances where at the companies were unable to take
:53:37. > :53:40.advantage of the investment they had made is to reduce tax liability so
:53:41. > :53:45.that resulted in the loss of revenue. You knew that when you made
:53:46. > :53:49.the projections. I did not make the projections. There are highly
:53:50. > :53:52.credible people in the industry themselves to have much more
:53:53. > :54:01.optimistic projections than the UK Government. A forecast today on the
:54:02. > :54:02.current lines, you would probably be denied the existence by the time we
:54:03. > :54:10.get to the temper -- September 2018. Now, if you have vote on Scottish
:54:11. > :54:12.independence and you're still undecided,
:54:13. > :54:15.despite the best efforts of any of Our Giles has been
:54:16. > :54:18.following the campaign. You know, for some, because, let's
:54:19. > :54:21.face it, not everybody is fussed, the dream of Scottish independence
:54:22. > :54:23.or the concept of Britain as The tartan glitterati have not been
:54:24. > :54:30.shy of raising their proverbial kilts and showing us what they
:54:31. > :54:34.really think on the big question. Brian Cox, the gritty Hannibal
:54:35. > :54:40.actor, not the boyish physicist, You are in favour of Scottish
:54:41. > :54:45.independence. As for coming together,
:54:46. > :54:56.Alan is not so sure. After independence,
:54:57. > :55:01.and I am a supporter and I hope it We will still be a part
:55:02. > :55:05.of the British Isles. However, Mike Myers is
:55:06. > :55:09.so ogre the idea of independence. Shrek wants what the will
:55:10. > :55:15.of the Scottish people want. That is interesting, and conclusive,
:55:16. > :55:29.coming from a man who is Canadian Captain Jack Harkness from
:55:30. > :55:34.Doctor Who and Torchwood. Let's stand together and let us not,
:55:35. > :55:44.like snarling currs, Apparently that meant he is
:55:45. > :55:50.for unionism. Harry Potter author JK Rolling
:55:51. > :55:57.conjured up a ?1 million donation to And brought herself a bout
:55:58. > :56:02.of online abuse. We are in the middle
:56:03. > :56:09.of a huge terrible terrifying I think now is the time
:56:10. > :56:16.for stability. That is a magic that is not working
:56:17. > :56:19.on Irvine Welsh, who has been spotted boarding a train leaving
:56:20. > :56:23.the British union station. That sense of Britishness,
:56:24. > :56:26.I do not think it is served Frankie Boyle agrees,
:56:27. > :56:31.funnily enough, or unfunnily I've kind of romanticised about
:56:32. > :56:40.Scotland being this foreign country. Our culture is actually very vibrant
:56:41. > :56:43.and something we should try to Thinking of culture, there is
:56:44. > :56:48.even musicians in each camp. The first pop stars with thick
:56:49. > :56:54.specks and huge mouths when they We are voting yes
:56:55. > :56:59.for an independent Scotland because we believe we should take
:57:00. > :57:02.responsibility for our own lives. We are voting yes for an independent
:57:03. > :57:05.Scotland because we want to see You will recognise him
:57:06. > :57:14.at these awards coming up. He is the one who is not there and
:57:15. > :57:18.is being represented by Kate Moss. The big issue is not
:57:19. > :57:27.so much will they won't they, He told a magazine he absolutely
:57:28. > :57:35.supported David Bowie's viewpoint, especially if Miss Piggy could
:57:36. > :57:54.become the Queen of Scotland. Are these celebrities making any
:57:55. > :57:59.difference? It is astonishing that there is even 40% still considering
:58:00. > :58:03.voting yes, but when David Bowie came out with that we had the
:58:04. > :58:12.greatest fun. Everybody was looking at the titles. We had the man who
:58:13. > :58:19.fell to Perth. Let us hope not. Why not? The idea that someone's vote on
:58:20. > :58:26.something of this importance should be influenced by what some two bit
:58:27. > :58:27.actor, pop star or other reality TV consistent as disease strikes me as
:58:28. > :58:35.being beyond depressing. Thanks to our guests,
:58:36. > :58:38.especially Lesley and Alex. We'll be back in this spot
:58:39. > :58:41.in September, when we'll be just In the meantime,
:58:42. > :58:44.I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be
:58:45. > :58:47.speaking to Scotland's Deputy First DRUMBEATS CONTINUE
:58:48. > :59:15.WITH SWELLING, DRAMATIC MUSIC