:00:37. > :00:38.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.The report of former counter terrorism officer,
:00:42. > :00:44.Peter Clarke, into the Trojan Horse plot is about to be published.
:00:45. > :00:46.So was there a conspiracy to promote hardline Islamic values
:00:47. > :00:55.As the bodies of the almost 300 killed on flight MH17
:00:56. > :00:59.are handed over by Ukrainian rebels, will European Foreign Ministers hit
:01:00. > :01:07.Another night of violence in Gaza, as Israeli forces continue their
:01:08. > :01:14.Who's to blame for the continued blood-shed?
:01:15. > :01:18.And as MPs head off on their hols, Adam hits the beach with a bunch
:01:19. > :01:37.us for the whole programme today is the former Chair of the Equality and
:01:38. > :01:40.Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips. Welcome to the programme.
:01:41. > :01:42.First this afternoon - the Prime Minister is hosting
:01:43. > :01:45.poverty, early and forced marriage and, crucially, the practice of
:01:46. > :01:48.female genital mutilation - or FGM - within a generation. Home Secretary,
:01:49. > :01:54.Theresa May, spoke to the conference earlier.
:01:55. > :02:01.Today the Government is pleased to announce an extensive package of
:02:02. > :02:05.reforms, underlining the UK's committed to improve the lives of
:02:06. > :02:12.the thousands of girls and women in this country at risk of FGM and
:02:13. > :02:17.enforced marriage. Our laws must protect victims, which which is why
:02:18. > :02:24.we have criminalised forced marriage and why we are strengthenening our
:02:25. > :02:30.laws on FGM. We will give victims of FGM anonimity during court cases.
:02:31. > :02:37.Do you think during the past, that a blind eye has been turned or they
:02:38. > :02:42.have not taken up the cause of FGM because of cultural sensitivities? I
:02:43. > :02:46.wouldn't use the phrase "turned a blind eye" but I would say none of
:02:47. > :02:51.us accorded it the seriousness which it deserves. This is something, in a
:02:52. > :02:55.sense which takes place out of sight and doesn't in anyway affect the
:02:56. > :02:58.majority of the population. I think, to some extent what happened is,
:02:59. > :03:03.everybody said this is something we will deal with tomorrow, or, I
:03:04. > :03:08.think, less credibilitily, some people, I think, would take the view
:03:09. > :03:11.- we don't want to interfere with people's cultural rights and all
:03:12. > :03:15.that kind of nonsense. I think it is a mixture of things, but I suspect
:03:16. > :03:19.the main problem was - we just didn't treat it as being important.
:03:20. > :03:23.And now it is. And you think that is the right approach? Is it right that
:03:24. > :03:29.doctors and social workers and other health professionals will be under a
:03:30. > :03:33.mandatory obligation to report cases of FGM if they expect it is either
:03:34. > :03:38.going to happen or has happened? In general I'm against using the law to
:03:39. > :03:44.try to curb people's behaviour. However, I think in this case it is
:03:45. > :03:50.so serious -- and frankly, you know, we can get a bit muddled up by
:03:51. > :03:55.getting into issues of culture here. This is simply an assault, full
:03:56. > :04:00.stop. It doesn't matter who is doing it for what reason, it is an I a
:04:01. > :04:05.assault and needs to be stopped. If we have to use the law to achieve
:04:06. > :04:09.that, so be it. Do you think the law will be necessary in order to
:04:10. > :04:12.convince and stop people, as you say, assaulting young girls and
:04:13. > :04:16.young women? It is women, it is not just going to be about education? I
:04:17. > :04:20.don't think education - people talk about education but frankly, I think
:04:21. > :04:24.that soft way out. In the end - the people and families who do this
:04:25. > :04:28.think that - they don't need to be educated. They know all about it and
:04:29. > :04:32.they simply believe that, if you like, their way of looking at the
:04:33. > :04:37.world is superior to those who think this is a bad thing. So my view is
:04:38. > :04:41.that as a community, if we genuinely believe that this is unacceptable in
:04:42. > :04:44.our society, we have to use all the tools at our disposal, which
:04:45. > :04:48.includes threatening criminal sanctions. One of the problems will
:04:49. > :04:51.be exporting it, if you like, that actually it can happen abroad and
:04:52. > :04:56.then the girls are brought back in. How do you stop that? I don't think
:04:57. > :04:59.you can stop - because you can't. This is common in Egypt. It is
:05:00. > :05:04.common in Somalia. People there think we are a bit bonkers to get
:05:05. > :05:10.into a state about it. I think the only thing you can do, and which is
:05:11. > :05:14.why the law will now affect parents and teachers and so on, is to make
:05:15. > :05:21.sure that everybody is looking out for signs of this, so this where it
:05:22. > :05:26.is possible for a teacher or for a clergyman, as it is mostly men in
:05:27. > :05:30.this case, to spot the signs of something going to happen, they can
:05:31. > :05:33.intervene. I think that's the only thing you can do, to put
:05:34. > :05:36.responsibility on the gate keepers, on the people who have authority in
:05:37. > :05:41.communities. All right, let's leave it there.
:05:42. > :05:44.Now the former head of the Met Police's counter-terrorism
:05:45. > :05:47.unit, Peter Clarke, says there is evidence that there was an agenda
:05:48. > :06:01.to introduce "an intolerant and aggressive Islamist ethos
:06:02. > :06:05.That's according to reports of the findings of an inquiry he's
:06:06. > :06:07.headed into the so-called "Trojan Horse" plot in the city.
:06:08. > :06:10.Mr Clarke says there was evidence of, "A sustained and co-ordinated
:06:11. > :06:12.agenda to impose upon children in a number of Birmingham schools
:06:13. > :06:15.the segregationist attitudes and practices of a hardline and
:06:16. > :06:18.The report highlighted a range of problems such as the bullying
:06:19. > :06:22.and intimidation of head teachers, changes to the curriculum
:06:23. > :06:23.and education plans, including increasing the faith component,
:06:24. > :06:27.governors overstepping their responsibilities by restricting
:06:28. > :06:30.schemes of work and insisting on an Islamic approach to subjects.
:06:31. > :06:33.A number of institutions came in for criticism - Birmingham City
:06:34. > :06:36.Council had failed to spot the emerging pattern in its schools
:06:37. > :06:49.and the Department of Eduction was accused of "benign neglect" and not
:06:50. > :06:53.The report also singled out the Muslim Council of Britain
:06:54. > :06:56.and the Association of Muslim Schools, saying they were
:06:57. > :07:02.behind a movement to increase the role of Islam in education
:07:03. > :07:10.Joining us now from Birmingham is Rafiq Patel of
:07:11. > :07:25.I will be talking to Harris Rafiq of the think-tank Quilliam.
:07:26. > :07:29.The leak of the report identifies the Muslim Council of Britain and
:07:30. > :07:35.the Association of Muslim Schools as being the driving forces to increase
:07:36. > :07:39.Islam in education. What I would like to clarify in terms of the
:07:40. > :07:43.Association of Muslim Schools, they are an organisation that has no
:07:44. > :07:46.statutory framework in terms of enforcing any type of you
:07:47. > :07:51.legislative matters into schools. In fact one of the matters that is very
:07:52. > :07:56.important is that the schools that have been targeted by Mr Clarke's
:07:57. > :08:01.report, are, in fact, not AMS schools. They are in fact
:08:02. > :08:07.state-funded schools and they are ah cad mis. Now, in terms -- academies.
:08:08. > :08:11.Now, in terms of Islamic education, like Catholic, Christian and Hindu
:08:12. > :08:16.schools, etc, of course it is important that many students and
:08:17. > :08:21.many parents want their children to go to a faith-based school because
:08:22. > :08:26.of the more or less and the ethos. But let's not confuse this by
:08:27. > :08:31.seeking to increase Islamic education into the types of things
:08:32. > :08:34.that Mr Clarke is talking about. So is Mr Clarke wrong? Why has he
:08:35. > :08:38.identified the Association of Muslim Schools - I take your point that you
:08:39. > :08:42.weren't necessarily involved in some of the schools being investigated -
:08:43. > :08:46.but you do work in faith schools, in private schools, in voluntary-aided
:08:47. > :08:52.schools and your role is to increase Islamic education? That is correct
:08:53. > :08:57.but let me say again that I haven't seen the report. Obviously, all we
:08:58. > :09:01.have seen so far is the exstracts in the Guardian. I think there is a --
:09:02. > :09:07.extracts in the Guardian. I think there is a fundamental
:09:08. > :09:13.misunderstanding of the role of AMS. AMS is an organisation that assists
:09:14. > :09:16.schools who come to it. It is a membership organisation. It does not
:09:17. > :09:21.enforce what should or should not go on in schools. In fact, Mr Clarke no
:09:22. > :09:24.doubt has highlighted that the Department of Education state-funded
:09:25. > :09:29.schools, are the ones that he has highlighted. He has highlighted
:09:30. > :09:33.academies. He has highlighted. Let me finish, because it is important
:09:34. > :09:36.that the AMS does not go into schools and dictate what should or
:09:37. > :09:43.should not happen in schools. All right. What is your response, then,
:09:44. > :10:15.to Mr Clarke's - Mr Clarke saying he has evidence of a"... If they are
:10:16. > :10:19.matters he has highlighted and those are matters that he needs to take
:10:20. > :10:22.into account Let me say this - these are state-funded organisations, some
:10:23. > :10:26.of which he has highlighted. The difficulty and we have seen from the
:10:27. > :10:30.Ofsted inspections, that offstead inspect os are going into schools
:10:31. > :10:34.and they are raising issues, for example, that libraries in this
:10:35. > :10:39.schools are not balanced. Now, let's take a typical example. If an Ofsted
:10:40. > :10:44.inspector goes into a school and says there is not sufficient text on
:10:45. > :10:49.English books, etc, where is the guidance for that. Let's look at the
:10:50. > :10:53.sexual education issue which has been a big issue also. Where is the
:10:54. > :10:57.guidance from that? Religious education is also a big issue, where
:10:58. > :11:02.is the guidance? Tolerance is an issue, where is the guidance on all
:11:03. > :11:06.of this. I think this is where the Government needs to concentrate and
:11:07. > :11:11.give guidance to these schools to say - look, this is where we want to
:11:12. > :11:15.see things. All right. Let me come to you, Harris Rafiq, because we
:11:16. > :11:19.have heard there from the Association of Muslim Schools, from
:11:20. > :11:23.Mr Patel saying he doesn't feel his association had anything to do with
:11:24. > :11:26.what was allegedly going on in the schools being investigated but the
:11:27. > :11:31.criticisms are quite stark from the leaked extracts. Do you think,
:11:32. > :11:38.though, that by talking about a Trojan Horse plot, and by talking
:11:39. > :11:42.about alleged violent extremism, in a which, it has masked what has
:11:43. > :11:46.really been going on in some of the Birmingham schools? Yes, I think
:11:47. > :11:50.that perhaps the original Trojan Horse document, per se, was found to
:11:51. > :11:54.be something written by somebody who wanted to highlight what was going
:11:55. > :11:58.on. I think we need to put that to one side. We need to focus on what
:11:59. > :12:02.the findings of the investigations were. The Ofsted findings were very
:12:03. > :12:06.clear. Peter Clarke's findings, although we haven't seen the full
:12:07. > :12:13.report, we have seen extracts of it, are they clear on what it suggests
:12:14. > :12:17.what it has found. If the case is - as it has been proven - than there
:12:18. > :12:20.is an agenda where there are library books in certain schools n primary
:12:21. > :12:27.schools where children are taught that in an ideal Islamic state
:12:28. > :12:31.anybody who is an apostate or anybody who commits adultery should
:12:32. > :12:36.be stoned, that's something we need to fix and should sort out. I'm fed
:12:37. > :12:42.up with organisations who may have as the head as the AMS has, the head
:12:43. > :12:46.of the organisation, the founder of the organisation, who has these
:12:47. > :12:54.views and has written a become about it. I think that's maybe where
:12:55. > :12:59.people may be in denial of what organisations that may assist
:13:00. > :13:05.schools, such as the ASM, have. Because if they believe these, how
:13:06. > :13:09.can they support a school? Is the problem that there is a conflict
:13:10. > :13:12.here between British values and what the Government talks about British
:13:13. > :13:18.values in schools and particularly these schools which have been
:13:19. > :13:22.investigated in Birmingham, and roles of organisations, who are
:13:23. > :13:26.promoting Islam and the two don't really come together? To be frank, I
:13:27. > :13:30.think people are getting into a rather abstract conversation about
:13:31. > :13:34.things which we can't quite get a handle on, like what are British
:13:35. > :13:40.values. I think there is a more fundamental problem here, which is
:13:41. > :13:44.very, very simple - how can it be that in a city like Birmingham,
:13:45. > :13:49.which is whatever it is, 25, 30, 40% minority that there are 20, 25
:13:50. > :13:55.schools which are 90% Muslim children? The problem here is not
:13:56. > :14:00.some conspiracy. It is a simple fact that we have a schools' system which
:14:01. > :14:04.allows effective segregation and in that situation, it is almost
:14:05. > :14:09.inevitable that some schools are going to operate according to
:14:10. > :14:14.different rules because that - if I may finish - that is what the
:14:15. > :14:21.parents and actually the communities close to those schools actually
:14:22. > :14:25.want. Do they? Do they... We have to make a decision about whether we
:14:26. > :14:33.think this is OK or not? Let's reframe the deba. If we talked about
:14:34. > :14:37.racism. You would say any school that you thought had low moral
:14:38. > :14:41.values or any school that was inferior, or any school that is
:14:42. > :14:47.different to them. That's a not the issue. It is. If you look at the
:14:48. > :14:52.Ofsted report and the findings from Peter Clarke, there have been many
:14:53. > :14:57.instances where teachers have been classing white women with low moral
:14:58. > :15:01.values, and white women as white prostitutes. And there are teachers
:15:02. > :15:04.who have been driving a particular racist segregational agenda and this
:15:05. > :15:11.is aeted problem. Irrespective of whether it is a ghetto of people who
:15:12. > :15:18.are 90% Muslim or not. If somebody is racist, if there is an Islaist
:15:19. > :15:24.totalitarian agenda, there is a problem. Do you think a children is
:15:25. > :15:28.going to be able to save that in a classroom where 40% of the children
:15:29. > :15:32.are white? Would they get away with it? This morning, Sarah Hewitt
:15:33. > :15:37.Clarkson, a head #250e67er, not of one of the schools investigated but
:15:38. > :15:41.a school in the area and she was interviewed as part of the Clarke
:15:42. > :15:46.inquiry, she said she had a number of aggressive Muslim men pushing an
:15:47. > :15:51.Islamic agenda and in the past h female teachers, as you were saying,
:15:52. > :15:56.that parents said demanded they wore headscarves when they left the
:15:57. > :16:17.school. Is it acceptable even if 95% of the children are Muslim? It is
:16:18. > :16:30.inevitable if that is the composition of the school. It is not
:16:31. > :16:40.like there is a choice. The only way to prevent this happening, unless
:16:41. > :17:00.you have stepped on the premises every single day, is to make sure
:17:01. > :17:03.that we do not have schools which essentially become wholly of one
:17:04. > :17:09.ethnicity. I agree with your analysis of the fact that there is a
:17:10. > :17:16.particular property, one particular faith in this instance, but I do not
:17:17. > :17:19.believe the majority of Muslim parents in the Birmingham area or
:17:20. > :17:21.you have stepped on the premises every single day, anywhere else want
:17:22. > :17:24.their children to be taught certain views that are racist, homophobic,
:17:25. > :17:27.that our segregationist, that will set them up later in life to not be
:17:28. > :17:29.the most positive contributing adults and British citizens that
:17:30. > :17:33.they could be. I do not believe the majority of parents want that. What
:17:34. > :17:36.do you say to that? It is an obvious point that does not even need to be
:17:37. > :17:41.made. The majority of parents believe in British values and the
:17:42. > :17:44.key to these schools is the headteachers, the key to these
:17:45. > :17:52.schools is the governing bodies, and the key clips Mike but they have
:17:53. > :17:56.been put under pressure by governors, by parents, who are
:17:57. > :17:58.pushing according an Islamist ethos which they should not be doing. Wren
:17:59. > :18:01.if it is an Islamist ethos in contradiction to British values then
:18:02. > :18:06.that is clearly wrong. We are in a British system, it is a British
:18:07. > :18:08.school and that is paramount. If they want to teach Islamist values
:18:09. > :18:10.against that, that is fine. But we are in a British education system
:18:11. > :18:12.and the government needs to look at the regulation and management of
:18:13. > :18:12.these schools, which are state funded.
:18:13. > :18:16.It's just 10 months until the next general election -
:18:17. > :18:18.as if I needed to remind you. With the polls tight,
:18:19. > :18:20.politicians will be fighting for every available vote.
:18:21. > :18:23.But a report written by our guest of the day, Trevor Phillips,
:18:24. > :18:26.says that all political parties need to do more to woo ethnic minority
:18:27. > :18:28.voters in particular, as Eleanor Garnier has been finding out.
:18:29. > :18:38.Croydon, where more than 100 different languages are spoken. It
:18:39. > :18:43.is predicted that the percentage of people from black and ethnic
:18:44. > :18:48.minority communities here will rise to 57%. Which parties are picking up
:18:49. > :18:52.the votes? Croydon Central is a marginal constituency. It is held by
:18:53. > :18:58.the Conservatives with a majority just under 3000 votes. At the recent
:18:59. > :19:04.local elections, the Tories lost control of the council. Now it is
:19:05. > :19:08.Labour who are in charge. The boom in the BME population means
:19:09. > :19:17.politicians on all sides in Ards no seats need to take note. The Labour
:19:18. > :19:21.Party, who most BME communities would four, the issue is not about
:19:22. > :19:27.being complacent but working as hard as possible to retain the vote. --
:19:28. > :19:31.vote for. Those parties who have not enjoyed the BME vote, they need to
:19:32. > :19:38.recognise that those votes are out there to be won. That warning to
:19:39. > :19:47.political parties is echoed in a report co-authored by Professor
:19:48. > :19:51.Webber. In the early years when BME migrants came, it was ashamed they
:19:52. > :19:56.would come to live act. But now they are moving into middle-class suburbs
:19:57. > :20:03.so it is questionable but they will vote for the same party. So if the
:20:04. > :20:06.BME vote is on the move what is influencing how people vote? Is it
:20:07. > :20:13.parents, culture, friends, or political parties? I think it is
:20:14. > :20:21.friends, family, the culture. Family would influence me. -- would not
:20:22. > :20:27.influence me. It is my own decision. What influences you when you fold? I
:20:28. > :20:32.look at the government and what it does for the people, their manifesto
:20:33. > :20:42.and all that. My family are very independent. Myself, I am on the
:20:43. > :20:48.brink of what politicians are saying. Community leaders say there
:20:49. > :20:52.is another significant challenge. The reality is there are a lot of
:20:53. > :20:56.concerns within communities. Those concerns will not be addressed if
:20:57. > :21:04.people do not actually engage more practically. There is a big issue of
:21:05. > :21:09.a small population of BME are registered to vote. We want to
:21:10. > :21:15.encourage more people to register. Out of 650 MPs, just 26 or from
:21:16. > :21:19.black and ethnic minority backgrounds. All political parties
:21:20. > :21:34.know there is a long way to go until Westminster truly reflects the
:21:35. > :21:38.diversity of the whole of the UK. From an electoral point of view, how
:21:39. > :21:44.important is the black and ethnic minority vote? Imlach pretty
:21:45. > :21:54.important. About a quarter of Labour's vote are ethnic minority
:21:55. > :21:58.and black. Over the next 25 years, the minority share of the electorate
:21:59. > :22:03.is going to climb and it is claiming more rapidly in this country than
:22:04. > :22:09.anywhere else in Europe. In about 25 years' time it could be up to 40% of
:22:10. > :22:16.the electorate. Decisions made now we'll really have a major impact on
:22:17. > :22:20.parties' outcomes over the next 20-25 years. So Labour has an
:22:21. > :22:23.in-built advantage because of tradition and history. Is that
:22:24. > :22:27.changing or will they be the beneficiaries of that increasing
:22:28. > :22:31.share of the vote in the next few elections? It is changing a bit but
:22:32. > :22:35.it is not changing at the rate anybody imagined it would do. It
:22:36. > :22:41.used to be the case that Labour would take 85% of the minority vote
:22:42. > :22:44.and are it is about 70%. There is no indication that there's going to
:22:45. > :22:49.change radically. There is no history anywhere in the Western
:22:50. > :22:53.world of what you might call a culturally inflicted vote changing
:22:54. > :22:59.its choice very rapidly. It takes generations. That will make it
:23:00. > :23:02.difficult for you. If you just look at the numbers voting for Labour in
:23:03. > :23:07.the past, if the number of black and ethnic minority voters continues to
:23:08. > :23:11.go up, and it is a very slow swap over to the Conservatives, you will
:23:12. > :23:16.struggle to win an outright majority? It is long-term but in the
:23:17. > :23:23.debate on this we must perhaps the most obvious point, which is that as
:23:24. > :23:27.a child of emigrants, maybe third generation immigrants, they come to
:23:28. > :23:31.this country because they are ambitious. They want a better future
:23:32. > :23:36.for their children, they want the best schooling, and if we as a party
:23:37. > :23:41.can tie that in and make sure our values resonate there there is...
:23:42. > :23:46.But you have failed to do that. As Trevor said, this is about the
:23:47. > :23:52.long-term and being consistent. We need to talk about our Conservative
:23:53. > :23:59.Party is and how they are immigrant values of the -- are Conservative
:24:00. > :24:04.Party values. Let's talk about how you are losing the share of the
:24:05. > :24:09.vote, do you accept that? I do not accept that. I do not accept that
:24:10. > :24:13.Labour takes any votes for granted. They have been accused of taking
:24:14. > :24:19.working class white voters for granted and the ethnic minority
:24:20. > :24:23.voters. Politics is about relationships with communities and
:24:24. > :24:27.reflect on what people's needs are within a political discourse and
:24:28. > :24:34.Labour has had a strong history with the Race Relations Act and things
:24:35. > :24:39.since then. There are issues about representation in politics. We have
:24:40. > :24:45.seen measures like diversity targets on public wards, which the
:24:46. > :24:51.Conservatives to go away. What you have to say is high a political
:24:52. > :24:58.party is representing the needs and issues of the diverse community in
:24:59. > :25:03.politics? -- is how is a political party. Was there a perception that
:25:04. > :25:08.the Tories are anti-immigrant and that legacy exists, and it is
:25:09. > :25:17.hampering your attempts to woo ethnic minority voters? I am an East
:25:18. > :25:27.African seek, so the irony is quite strong. -- Sikh. Never say never in
:25:28. > :25:31.politics. It is visible message, BME voters are no different from anybody
:25:32. > :25:37.else. I have the same values. It is as tying in and making sure we make
:25:38. > :25:41.the connection. There is one other point. They are making decisions
:25:42. > :25:46.about how they are affected by the cost of living crisis. People have
:25:47. > :25:50.housing problems, employment problems, but there are still
:25:51. > :25:54.fundamental inequalities in our society which politics has to
:25:55. > :25:58.represent, whether that is the higher levels of unemployment in BME
:25:59. > :26:01.communities, how that differs from different areas, whether there is
:26:02. > :26:08.representation in fair treatment with public services. You cannot
:26:09. > :26:12.gloss over those matters. You have two ask if politics represented. I
:26:13. > :26:15.am glad she raised that point. She is right, there is an issue around
:26:16. > :26:20.unemployment. If you look at the last five years we have seen a
:26:21. > :26:24.narrowing of the gap in terms of levels of unemployment. Generally
:26:25. > :26:31.across BME communities as a whole, the whole point is about social
:26:32. > :26:34.mobility. Nobody from a BME background want equal access and a
:26:35. > :26:38.fair crack of the whip. Do they see that as link to the Conservative
:26:39. > :26:43.Party? Which policies could they say, if you're from an ethnic
:26:44. > :26:53.minority community, that is because they are a Conservative government?
:26:54. > :27:05.I am from a state school and a further education college. Rather
:27:06. > :27:12.than taking the BME voters at face value, we have engaged. There is a
:27:13. > :27:22.Sikh school pursuing academic access in my constituency. There is a
:27:23. > :27:28.political denial which affects British politics. In the US they
:27:29. > :27:33.accept it is about race. The reason minorities do not vote for
:27:34. > :27:37.Conservatives is because they think the Conservatives do not like them.
:27:38. > :27:41.That is more important than anything. One of the very
:27:42. > :27:47.interesting pieces of research that came out in 2010 was that Labour
:27:48. > :27:52.supporters, black or white or non-white, had no difference in
:27:53. > :27:57.their views about the economy, all of those kinds of issues. There is
:27:58. > :28:01.only one thing that minority Labour voters and white Labour voters
:28:02. > :28:04.differed on and that is attitudes to immigration. The gap between white
:28:05. > :28:09.Labour supporters and minority Labour supporters was as big as the
:28:10. > :28:13.gap between white Labour supporters and white conservative supporters.
:28:14. > :28:16.The point I am making here is, it is true that on a lot of issues
:28:17. > :28:19.minority voters are particularly different to white voters. The
:28:20. > :28:27.things they think are most important make them very, very different. In
:28:28. > :28:33.order to increase representation, ethnic minority short lists - are
:28:34. > :28:41.the edit thing? I think it is important that we seek people coming
:28:42. > :28:44.through into our politics. In my constituency we have people who are
:28:45. > :28:49.active within political networks, whether they are from an African
:28:50. > :28:54.background, Sri Lankan, Indian, other South Asian, Pakistani, you
:28:55. > :28:57.have got to see people coming through who are feeling
:28:58. > :29:01.have got to see people coming are valued, part of the sphere of
:29:02. > :29:07.politics, people coming forward as counsellors and standing for
:29:08. > :29:17.Parliament. The most important thing, irrespective of the economy,
:29:18. > :29:18.is the presence of people like them in front line politics. You better
:29:19. > :29:22.get out onto the campaign trail. Now, foreign ministers are meeting
:29:23. > :29:25.in Brussels today to discuss what action the EU should take over
:29:26. > :29:27.the Malaysia Airlines flight that David Cameron told the Commons
:29:28. > :29:30.yesterday that if the Russian President, Vladimir
:29:31. > :29:32.Putin, could not end his support for the separatist rebels in Ukraine,
:29:33. > :29:35.then Europe and the West should be prepared to "fundamentally change"
:29:36. > :29:37.its relationship with Moscow. As Philip Hammond arrived
:29:38. > :29:49.for the summit he said a clear message had to be sent to Russia.
:29:50. > :29:54.The meeting today is an opportunity for us to send a clear signal to
:29:55. > :29:58.Russia. We are pleased there is movement now on repatrioting the
:29:59. > :30:06.victims. Pleased that there is some access being granted to the site but
:30:07. > :30:11.we mustn't forget the overall all, that this terrible incident happened
:30:12. > :30:15.in the fist place because of Russia's support to the separatists
:30:16. > :30:18.in eastern Ukraine and we have to address that issue today. I shall be
:30:19. > :30:22.urging my colleagues and our partners to send a very clear and
:30:23. > :30:27.strong signal to Russia. REPORTER: Do you think some European countries
:30:28. > :30:31.are putting self-interest first? Look, everybody wants to see a
:30:32. > :30:37.balanced set of measures as we go forward. The world has changed since
:30:38. > :30:41.the European Council last week. The events of last Thursday have changed
:30:42. > :30:46.public expectations upon us, and we have to send a clear signal today
:30:47. > :30:51.that we recognise that and there go further. I'm joined by our Political
:30:52. > :30:56.Correspondent Ben Wright from Brussels. That's the rhetoric. What
:30:57. > :30:59.about action that can be realistically agreed, Ben? The
:31:00. > :31:03.meeting began with a minute's silence, everybody stood up, then
:31:04. > :31:06.the Dutch Foreign Minister spoke first and said action needed to be
:31:07. > :31:11.taken because of Russia's support for the rebels. But, as you say, Jo,
:31:12. > :31:15.lots of rhetoric, I don't think it is going to be matched by action
:31:16. > :31:19.here today. My sense is that at the end of this discussion, there will
:31:20. > :31:22.be a commitment to come up with a list of names andentities and
:31:23. > :31:29.companies that will be subject to fresh sanctions, particularly people
:31:30. > :31:33.and companies close to to the Russian President, Vladimir Putin
:31:34. > :31:40.and his cronies within the Kremlin but what there won't be, I don't
:31:41. > :31:43.think, is any action at all on broad sector sanctions, economic and
:31:44. > :31:47.financial sanctions. There has been discussions about an arms embargo.
:31:48. > :31:51.Very difficult to do. European countries have all sorts of
:31:52. > :31:55.different self-interest at play here. That practically, movement on
:31:56. > :31:59.those sanctions is a long way down the track. Is that bus of
:32:00. > :32:04.self-interest. We heard Philip Hammond being asked that,
:32:05. > :32:10.self-interest in countries like Germany and Italy, reliant on Russia
:32:11. > :32:16.for gas and also the financial relationship. Is that the block on
:32:17. > :32:20.sanctions, to stop it going further? There is a technical block in terms
:32:21. > :32:24.of the legality of implementing the sanctions. It would need the
:32:25. > :32:29.agreement of all European Union heads of government to move on to
:32:30. > :32:33.the so-called stage 3 sanctions, the sector-wide one which would really
:32:34. > :32:36.hurt the Russian economy. That requires agreement and there
:32:37. > :32:39.arisation that the foreign ministers don't have. Then there is the fact
:32:40. > :32:42.that all sorts of countries have their own different relationships
:32:43. > :32:49.with Russia. Countries like the Netherlands, like Germany, heavily
:32:50. > :32:52.reliant on Russian energy. There is an established military relationship
:32:53. > :32:57.between France and Russia. Controversial lit French were about
:32:58. > :33:00.to sell the two warships at a cost of ?1.2 billion that the French
:33:01. > :33:04.Government seems to have no interest in stopping at this late stage. All
:33:05. > :33:08.that Russian money running threw the City of London. There would be a
:33:09. > :33:11.price to play in different ways and different European countries if
:33:12. > :33:14.those sorts of broader economic sanctions were followed through. At
:33:15. > :33:16.the moment I don't think there is the agreement, the appetite to go
:33:17. > :33:23.down that route. Thank you.
:33:24. > :33:25.Foreign Ministers in Brussels are also discussing the situation
:33:26. > :33:28.Overnight the Israeli offensive against Hamas continued.
:33:29. > :33:31.Since 8th July, 605 Palestinians have died.
:33:32. > :33:33.According to the Israelis, around 180 Hamas militants have
:33:34. > :33:37.27 Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians have also lost
:33:38. > :33:43.Let's get the latest from our correspondent in Gaza,
:33:44. > :33:54.Can you bring us up-to-date with what is happening at the moment?
:33:55. > :33:59.Well here in Gaza for the past few hours we have had an intense aerial
:34:00. > :34:04.bombardment by Israel. We woke up to the sound of air strikes close to
:34:05. > :34:11.our hotel. You can hear the drones at the moment there. Has been
:34:12. > :34:15.shelling to the east of Gaza city. In those neighbourhoods. And also
:34:16. > :34:19.going south from there. We heard from health officials that some 50
:34:20. > :34:25.Palestinians have been killed since midnight local time across the Gaza
:34:26. > :34:34.Strip. So, really, the fighting here continue very intensely as those
:34:35. > :34:37.diplomatic efforts gather pace in Cairo. We have the US Secretary of
:34:38. > :34:41.State, John Kerry there, meeting officious from the Arab League and
:34:42. > :34:44.Egyptian officials and the US Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon has
:34:45. > :34:49.been in Cairo. He is going to go and meet Israeli officials and will make
:34:50. > :34:52.his way to Ramallah to meet officials there. Is there any
:34:53. > :34:56.realistic prospect that this fighting will stop any time soon,
:34:57. > :35:01.whilst these diplomatic negotiations continue? Well, certainly on the
:35:02. > :35:08.ground at the moment it doesn't feel like it. What Hamas is insisting
:35:09. > :35:12.upon, when you speak to Hamas officials s their conditions for a
:35:13. > :35:17.truce must be met. They feel it is not sats frack trito have a
:35:18. > :35:24.reimplement igs not satisfaction tri. It is to have a reintroduction
:35:25. > :35:29.of a previous truce. Hamas at the moment are asking for the release by
:35:30. > :35:34.Israel of many of their prisoners from Israeli jails. There has been a
:35:35. > :35:38.round-ups by Hamas in the weeks before this offensive, which is what
:35:39. > :35:43.led to the breakdown between Hamas and Israel and Hamas also wants to
:35:44. > :35:51.see an easing of the very tight border restrictions that are imposed
:35:52. > :35:56.on the Gaza Strip both by -- by both Israel and Egypt and there has been
:35:57. > :36:02.a change in government in Egypt and it is a military-led government, led
:36:03. > :36:05.by the Muslim Brotherhood group, and that has led to a deterioration of
:36:06. > :36:25.the quality of life here. Complr Is there anything that the
:36:26. > :36:30.West can do to solve this? We need the European Union, and the Israeli
:36:31. > :36:38.Government to work together to show leadership and to act as an a honest
:36:39. > :36:42.broke. Yet again it has been shown that Israel has shown complete
:36:43. > :36:46.disregard for humanitarian issues. 600 people are dead, mainly
:36:47. > :36:50.civilians, 100 thousand seeking refuge. We need the European Union
:36:51. > :36:53.to be a strong voice in recognising, of course, that Israel needs to
:36:54. > :36:56.maintain its security but its reaction and response is not
:36:57. > :37:00.proportionate. We need the European Union, including the British
:37:01. > :37:03.Government, to speak up and work towards resuming peace negotiations,
:37:04. > :37:08.which have been completely elusive over recent years. How does Israel
:37:09. > :37:12.maintain its security without this sort of silence that escalates?
:37:13. > :37:15.Well, this sort of violence and the death of so many people,
:37:16. > :37:20.particularly Palestinians, of course, there have been casualties
:37:21. > :37:25.on the Israeli side as well but the vast majority have been
:37:26. > :37:28.Palestinians, won't secure Israel, won't provide long-term security.
:37:29. > :37:34.What we need is the international community to work together. But,
:37:35. > :37:36.also, Israel needs to respect international humanitarian law,
:37:37. > :37:41.international law generally and that's not happening. Has Israel
:37:42. > :37:45.disregarded humanitarian and international law by going into Gaza
:37:46. > :37:49.in the way they have? No, not at all. Apart from anything else, the
:37:50. > :37:52.very muted response, and indeed in many cases a very encouraging
:37:53. > :37:56.response for Israel from the international community is, I think
:37:57. > :37:59.testament to the fact that it is playing, not just by the rules but
:38:00. > :38:04.by the most stringent rules imaginable. The reason why the
:38:05. > :38:07.casualties exist in the Gaza is obviously because Israel is trying,
:38:08. > :38:12.as an operational objective to stop Hamas and other jihadist groups from
:38:13. > :38:16.firing rockets into Israel. In order to do that Israel is carrying out a
:38:17. > :38:22.very, very targeted campaign. It is inevitable in that, that civilians
:38:23. > :38:26.are going to be killed. Let mow finish. One of the reasons why it is
:38:27. > :38:30.targeted, because they are trying to get launchpads where the rock
:38:31. > :38:34.receipts coming from. One of the reasons why there is a problem
:38:35. > :38:39.andence dentally CNN has a tape of this, amongst others, ham has has
:38:40. > :38:44.been edge couraging the people of Gaza to protect the houses of Hamas
:38:45. > :38:48.commanders, to congregate around areas where Israelis have texted to
:38:49. > :38:54.say - this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise the
:38:55. > :39:02.casualties. -- this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise
:39:03. > :39:05.the casualties. The international community - this
:39:06. > :39:08.is the third time now this has happened, and I would suggest. It is
:39:09. > :39:12.more than the third time. There has been this exchange since 2007. We
:39:13. > :39:19.will look at the operational and what actually both sides are hoping
:39:20. > :39:24.to achieve but Rushanara Ali you said at the weekend that David
:39:25. > :39:27.Cameron failed to show international leadership, "My party is with you
:39:28. > :39:32.and the friends of Palestine are with you." Do you have Ed Miliband's
:39:33. > :39:35.support for your line on this conflict? Ed Miliband has made it
:39:36. > :39:38.clear that the incursion, the ground incursion, rebels, will European -
:39:39. > :39:41.rebels, will European - he said this only yesterday - the ground
:39:42. > :39:49.incursion is not one that is supported. We recognise Israel's
:39:50. > :39:53.demand, as Ed Miliband has said, for its security. But its response has
:39:54. > :39:56.been disproportionate and the point about international leadership is if
:39:57. > :40:02.you look at what David Cameron said in 2010, he described the blockade
:40:03. > :40:07.of Gaza as "an open prison", "Gaza an people are suffering." The
:40:08. > :40:14.collective fault of Hamas as well as Israel? Of course. These groups -
:40:15. > :40:20.the public and Palestinians are suffering. And leaders have a
:40:21. > :40:26.responsibility to respond. The last thing is there have been a series of
:40:27. > :40:32.ground and air operations by the Israeli ge fence force by Hamas and
:40:33. > :40:38.there are half a dozen. The rockets still continue to come into Israel.
:40:39. > :40:40.So the question is. Are these innocent Palestinians losing their
:40:41. > :40:44.lives for nothing? The Israelis are not achieving their aims. The
:40:45. > :40:47.rockets continue from Hamas. All right, you are saying they hide
:40:48. > :40:50.their munitions, rockets and militant leaders in civilian
:40:51. > :40:53.buildings but in the end, the Israelis have not stopped the
:40:54. > :40:58.rockets coming in and more Palestinians are dying. Anyone
:40:59. > :41:02.interested in bringing peace to the region have to bear in mind the
:41:03. > :41:06.serious learn curve the Israelis went through after withdrawal in
:41:07. > :41:09.2000 #5, they got not peace from Gaza but rocket fire, thousands and
:41:10. > :41:14.thousands of rockets. Since they have been trying to stop the rocket
:41:15. > :41:18.fire. Since 2007 when Hamas did a military coup in the Gaza and killed
:41:19. > :41:21.their fellow Palestinians, the Israelis have on three major
:41:22. > :41:25.occasions gone in. The problem with this is that the international
:41:26. > :41:28.community tends to allow Israel some weeks in order to achieve the
:41:29. > :41:31.operational objective. They are going to lose international support,
:41:32. > :41:35.aren't they? The crucial thing to add, it is very important that
:41:36. > :41:41.Israel is allowed to win at some point. The international community
:41:42. > :41:45.is quite good at prolonging the conflict by not... What does a win
:41:46. > :41:49.look like in this case, can there ever be a military solution to this
:41:50. > :41:53.problem of, particularly, Gaza, and Israel, rather than the West Bank
:41:54. > :41:58.and Israel? It is a platitude, but it happens to be true here. There
:41:59. > :42:03.are going to be no winners here, whatever the outcome. I think that,
:42:04. > :42:10.you know, speak personally, my heart is rather with has been said, but I
:42:11. > :42:13.have two caveats, one is that I really dislike the tendency,
:42:14. > :42:17.particularly from the media here always to put Israel in the dock
:42:18. > :42:22.here. The truth of the matter is that the people of Gaza actually
:42:23. > :42:28.voted for Hamas and they voted knowing what would happen. Hamas has
:42:29. > :42:32.been very clear, it has no intention of making peace with Israel. So,
:42:33. > :42:37.actually, you know, this is a horrible, cruel thing to say - this
:42:38. > :42:43.is the result of a democratic outcome. And, by the way, the really
:42:44. > :42:47.bigger issue here is Egypt because that's what really has made the big
:42:48. > :42:52.difference here. And Egypt is also worried about being on the border
:42:53. > :42:55.with Gaza. The peculiar thing is Israel and Egypt, relative to Gaza
:42:56. > :43:00.are in exactly the same position right now. I think the notion of the
:43:01. > :43:03.way that we tend to report this, which is that it is Israel verses
:43:04. > :43:09.suffering Palestinians, is just not right. That's not what this is
:43:10. > :43:13.about. Rush an aria ally. What is it that Hamas wants to achieve. What is
:43:14. > :43:16.it - amean Trevor Phillips said people voted for Hamas, as owe
:43:17. > :43:19.foesed to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, they
:43:20. > :43:24.voted for Hamas, knowing they would be much more hardline. So what is it
:43:25. > :43:28.that they want? I hope that what Trevor is not saying is that by
:43:29. > :43:35.voting for Hamas, those who voted were, in some way, are now deserve,
:43:36. > :43:39.you know the punishment, collective punishment. It is not collective
:43:40. > :43:44.punishment. An outrageous thing to say. You know that's not what I'm
:43:45. > :43:49.saying at all. I very much hope not. But the point is that this cycle of
:43:50. > :43:52.violence is going on and on. The fact is that the Palestinians have
:43:53. > :43:56.lived under occupation and Gaza... They are not under occupation. They
:43:57. > :44:01.have their own state. The Gaza is a state It is nonsense. It is run by
:44:02. > :44:04.Hamas. They had one election which as Trevor said the people voted for
:44:05. > :44:08.Hamas. Hamas then killed the opposition and they have never had
:44:09. > :44:15.an election since. They could have a a state. If they wanted it. Let her
:44:16. > :44:19.finish her point. This seems to be a bit of am niecia here about the
:44:20. > :44:22.history of what is happening in that region and the fact that
:44:23. > :44:24.Palestinians don't have a state, they have, you know, lived under
:44:25. > :44:31.occupation, they have lived under attack and what we need is, rapidly,
:44:32. > :44:36.in order to secure peace, which is rapidly eluding this region, which
:44:37. > :44:41.need the international community - we need the leaders in America and
:44:42. > :44:46.Europe to work together to resume negotiations. So to what? To bring
:44:47. > :44:50.an end to the conflict. The end of the conflict will be fastly brought
:44:51. > :44:54.about by Hamas being thrown out of the West Bank by the Palestinians in
:44:55. > :44:58.the West Bank by by any force available. The two-state solution,
:44:59. > :45:02.and it is a dream but still a possible dream. Do the Israelis
:45:03. > :45:06.believe in that? I think they do with the West Bank. The
:45:07. > :45:11.irreconcilable problem at the moment s what do you want to do with Hamas
:45:12. > :45:14.which wants to annihilate the Jewish state and does not want peace? #1y50
:45:15. > :45:19.the agenda is being controlled by people who don't want peace, whether
:45:20. > :45:24.it is the settlers, with West Bank, or its Hamas. That is aeted problem.
:45:25. > :45:28.How do we wrestle an agenda out of the hands of those groups of people,
:45:29. > :45:43.who, by the way, are not states, these are gangs. University funding
:45:44. > :45:47.is back in the spotlight with claims that the government's new student
:45:48. > :45:51.loan scheme could cost more than the previous system. The Business,
:45:52. > :45:56.Innovation and Skills Select Committee has produced a report
:45:57. > :46:00.warning that the taxpayer is losing 45p on every ?1 loan to students.
:46:01. > :46:06.You is what the Labour chairman had to say. The rate of default on loans
:46:07. > :46:14.is rapidly reaching 50%. It is currently at 45%. At that point it
:46:15. > :46:17.becomes an economic. This is being made more difficult because the
:46:18. > :46:25.government is committed to increasing the number of students by
:46:26. > :46:28.60,000 in the 15/16 intake. We have an underlying problem and the
:46:29. > :46:36.addition of the students will only make it worse. I am joined now by
:46:37. > :46:42.Megan Bond, the vice president for higher education at the National
:46:43. > :46:46.Union of Students and the director of the Social Market Foundation. Can
:46:47. > :46:49.you argue that the fact that this is costing so much shows the taxpayer
:46:50. > :46:54.is taking the strain of the system rather than the student? What is
:46:55. > :47:03.really clear from this committee report is that the current system is
:47:04. > :47:04.being funded by public money. The government is actually
:47:05. > :47:08.being funded by public money. The government is funding it at the
:47:09. > :47:12.wrong end of the system. Instead of funding students to go through the
:47:13. > :47:19.system, they are writing get off at the end. -- writing that's off. This
:47:20. > :47:26.could cost the Godman more than the previous system. -- cost the
:47:27. > :47:28.government more. It is close to reaching the tipping point, where it
:47:29. > 0:40:34will cost the