:00:35. > :00:36.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:37. > :00:38.Alex Salmond's got a smile on his face.
:00:39. > :00:41.He thinks he's going to win next week's vote on Scottish
:00:42. > :00:46.Pro-unionist parties have denied claims they are in crisis
:00:47. > :00:48.following a weekend poll showing that the "Yes" camp has taken the
:00:49. > :00:57.Political campaigners for Scottish independence say they have
:00:58. > :00:59.Leaders at Westminster are trying to agree a timetable
:01:00. > :01:02.for handing more powers to the Scottish parliament if voters choose
:01:03. > :01:08.The Liberal Democrats launch their General Election pre-manifesto.
:01:09. > :01:15.We'll be asking if it's worth the 80 pages of paper it's written on.
:01:16. > :01:18.Are you the Earl of Grantham, Lady Mary or Mr Carson?
:01:19. > :01:20.The TUC thinks British Society's just like Downton Abbey.
:01:21. > :01:22.We'll be asking the General Secretary, Frances O'Grady
:01:23. > :01:28.And can you identify these well-known faces who've popped up
:01:29. > :01:31.at one London tube station this morning?
:01:32. > :01:44.Recognise her? We'll be finding out more about the campaign where famous
:01:45. > :01:48.politicians are getting mashed up. All that in the next hour
:01:49. > :01:52.and with us for the duration today, Tessa Jowell, she's Labour and Ming
:01:53. > :01:58.Campbell, he's a Liberal Democrat. Between them they've had
:01:59. > :02:00.so many top jobs, It's 10 days to go
:02:01. > :02:14.before voters decide whether they Over the weekend pro-Unionists were
:02:15. > :02:18.shocked by the first poll to show In response, George Osborne took to
:02:19. > :02:32.the airwaves to make this offer. You will see in the next few days a
:02:33. > :02:39.plan of action to give more powers to Scotland, more tax powers, more
:02:40. > :02:44.spending powers and plans to have more powers over the welfare state
:02:45. > :02:47.and that will be put into effect and the timetable for delivery will be
:02:48. > :02:53.put into effect the moment there is a No vote in the referendum on the
:02:54. > :02:56.clock will be ticking for those powers. And Scotland will have the
:02:57. > :03:01.best of both worlds. They will avoid the risk of separation and have more
:03:02. > :03:05.control over their own destiny. No one is daft enough in Scotland to
:03:06. > :03:11.swallow an argument from a Tory Chancellor. If this was a
:03:12. > :03:15.significant new after -- offer, rather than a panic measure because
:03:16. > :03:18.the Westminster elite are losing the campaign we wouldn't have heard
:03:19. > :03:21.about it before hundreds of thousands of people have cast their
:03:22. > :03:25.ballot by post. It's a ridiculous position being put forward by the no
:03:26. > :03:26.campaign which is in terminal trouble.
:03:27. > :03:29.Well, we're joined now from Glasgow by Blair Jenkins from the Yes
:03:30. > :03:39.Before we take reaction to what we just heard there, let's look in
:03:40. > :03:41.general what has happened in the money markets, Mr
:03:42. > :03:46.general what has happened in the have had one poll that put the Yes
:03:47. > :03:50.campaign narrowly ahead. It has sent tremors through the money markets.
:03:51. > :03:53.The pound has slumped to the lowest level but ten months against the
:03:54. > :03:56.dollar and companies like The Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Life
:03:57. > :04:01.have fallen sharply. Is that what Scotland has the look forward to? To
:04:02. > :04:04.the extent that there is uncertainty in the market, and I don't know
:04:05. > :04:07.whether that's a reflection on the referendum because all sorts of
:04:08. > :04:12.things influence the markets. I think it is possible it is a result
:04:13. > :04:18.of that. What you say the uncertainty? It's a very easy way of
:04:19. > :04:22.calming the markets available, which is it George Osborne said there
:04:23. > :04:28.would be a currency union with Scotland after a yes vote. It lies
:04:29. > :04:32.in the gift of the Chancellor and his friends in the other parties to
:04:33. > :04:37.end the uncertainty there might be. He's already said he won't do that,
:04:38. > :04:41.and we can safely say he will stick to that line, certainly up to the
:04:42. > :04:45.poll and beyond, so is it in your mind that you don't believe him and
:04:46. > :04:50.he is still bluffing. Not only in my mind but in the minds of the people
:04:51. > :04:53.of Scotland. This issue has exhausted itself in Scotland. People
:04:54. > :04:57.have heard what the Westminster politicians have to say and the
:04:58. > :05:00.level of distrust towards Westminster politicians is at an
:05:01. > :05:08.all-time high, so I think they believe it is a bluff. I do think
:05:09. > :05:13.that people feel deeply angered that Scotland could not use the pound if
:05:14. > :05:17.we chose to. As a tactic, and it is a tactic, I believe it is
:05:18. > :05:20.spectacularly backfiring. I've lost count of the number of people who
:05:21. > :05:24.have said they have moved from no on two yes just because of this issue
:05:25. > :05:28.because of the way the Westminster parties have handled the currency
:05:29. > :05:31.issue. Your point that the excursion -- discussion has been exhausted
:05:32. > :05:35.might have been demonstrated in the second debate, but when you look at
:05:36. > :05:38.the uncertainty in the markets, it has moved on and they are very
:05:39. > :05:41.important in terms of the offer that the Yes campaign is making to
:05:42. > :05:48.Scottish voters. Do you accept that the very least from what we saw
:05:49. > :05:52.today and talk and rumours of companies withdrawing deposits, do
:05:53. > :05:56.you accept that there will be short-term pain in the event of a
:05:57. > :06:05.yes victory, a period of uncertainty about the currency arrangements. It
:06:06. > :06:10.could result in a trouble spot. The UK Government is in a good spot.
:06:11. > :06:16.That is not my question. To be honest, we are very surprised by
:06:17. > :06:21.this. We are surprised by the extent that the poll came as a shock to
:06:22. > :06:24.people in Westminster and in London. Anyone who paid any attention at all
:06:25. > :06:32.to the debate in Scotland knew that at the very least it was going to be
:06:33. > :06:35.the direction of travel towards yes. We have said that that anyone
:06:36. > :06:39.looking at the campaigns around Scotland, they are more visible and
:06:40. > :06:44.audible. There is clearly a yes movement which is bigger than party
:06:45. > :06:48.politics. And it is not calming the market. You still haven't answered
:06:49. > :06:52.the question about that uncertainty. Whether it is a shock or not, it has
:06:53. > :07:01.shocked the international markets that you rely on, and if you are not
:07:02. > :07:03.part of union and you don't have an alternative, and Alex Salmond said
:07:04. > :07:10.they would renege on the debt, you become a pariah state. The markets
:07:11. > :07:13.will no doubt way lots of things up at the moment. Everything around
:07:14. > :07:17.Scotland moving to become an independent country suggests it will
:07:18. > :07:23.be done so in a smooth transition. We are interested in stability in
:07:24. > :07:27.currency and other things. But the implication is that the opposite
:07:28. > :07:31.will happen. If this is what has happened after one poll puts you
:07:32. > :07:35.narrowly ahead, what are the indications if that continues in the
:07:36. > :07:41.next couple of weeks for the smooth transition? I would say it looks
:07:42. > :07:44.pretty bad. Markets tend to respect the process of democracy and
:07:45. > :07:49.self-determination. But they do like certainty. Unfortunately life is not
:07:50. > :07:54.full of certainty right now for many of us. I don't think the cause of
:07:55. > :07:58.the uncertainty here, such as it is, and it remains to be seen how
:07:59. > :08:01.large it is, if there is uncertainty, it's been caused by the
:08:02. > :08:07.Westminster parties and it is in their gift to end the uncertainty. I
:08:08. > :08:11.don't think people mind about the cause, they want to know what you
:08:12. > :08:16.can do to calm it down and provide some sort of stability. What can you
:08:17. > :08:20.do? I am heading a campaign for Scottish independence, I'm not a
:08:21. > :08:25.politician. What would you expect Alex Salmond and the SNP to do to
:08:26. > :08:28.calm everybody's nerves? I think the First Minister and the Scottish
:08:29. > :08:31.Government have been highly responsible and highly consistent in
:08:32. > :08:34.what we have said. What we discovered yesterday, and it was
:08:35. > :08:40.nothing new, is that the Westminster parties are bumping into themselves
:08:41. > :08:44.and each other and finding it hard to get a consistent position on more
:08:45. > :08:48.power but Scotland. We are clear in what we are doing, but I wish the
:08:49. > :08:55.others would be as clear in what they are saying. It is true that the
:08:56. > :08:59.offer of more powers has been made by the three parties at Westminster,
:09:00. > :09:02.and that timetable looks like it has been brought forward. Do you accept
:09:03. > :09:06.that in the closing days of the campaign, voters in Scotland can now
:09:07. > :09:12.have it all ways. If they vote no, they can have extra powers. The
:09:13. > :09:16.option that would not be on the ballot paper, and they can do it
:09:17. > :09:19.with no risk. I think people in Scotland are smart enough to see
:09:20. > :09:26.through what is happening. What are they seeing through? What they see
:09:27. > :09:29.is that this is driven by panic not conviction. If there had been a
:09:30. > :09:35.serious move to warn -- towards offering new powers, surely it would
:09:36. > :09:37.have been done before the postal voting started. That has been
:09:38. > :09:41.happening for a couple of weeks. Many people in Scotland have already
:09:42. > :09:45.cast their vote. I think this is driven by a sense of panic and the
:09:46. > :09:49.ground shifting underneath the no campaign. We know what is on offer
:09:50. > :09:52.from the Westminster parties is inadequate and it does not give as
:09:53. > :09:58.job creation powers, governments that we vote for and want, and
:09:59. > :10:01.policies that reflect the priorities of people in Scotland. It doesn't
:10:02. > :10:05.give us the fairer Scotland we want and the chance to protect public
:10:06. > :10:09.services. Lots of things in Scotland are moving people towards the Yes
:10:10. > :10:11.campaign. It is the biggest grassroots movement Scotland has
:10:12. > :10:15.seen, and we are happy and confident about how the campaign is going.
:10:16. > :10:20.Please stay with us and listen to the reaction from our guests. This
:10:21. > :10:26.is Westminster having been far too complacent. Only now, as we heard
:10:27. > :10:30.from Mr Jenkins, is there a panic reaction from the government, from
:10:31. > :10:34.George Osborne making all sorts of offers at the last minute because
:10:35. > :10:38.they never, ever believed that led Jenkins and Alex Salmond and Nicola
:10:39. > :10:42.Sturgeon could win this. First of all I don't think we have been
:10:43. > :10:46.complacent. Certainly, consistently, across all three parties we have
:10:47. > :10:49.said that this is an option and the people of Scotland have got to vote
:10:50. > :10:53.on whether they go independent or not, but all three parties are
:10:54. > :10:58.unanimous about wanting to keep the union together. That is my first
:10:59. > :11:08.point. My second point is, George Osborne has come out with this,
:11:09. > :11:13.following a careful look at what is possible and increased devolution,
:11:14. > :11:17.and having looked at Wales, I ran a successful devolution and increase
:11:18. > :11:25.the power is going to the Welsh Assembly. How have they closed the
:11:26. > :11:29.gap? If voters in Scotland really believed it, why is the 20 point gap
:11:30. > :11:33.that existed with the no campaign ahead has closed and been parsed
:11:34. > :11:37.according to one poll? Coming up to the referendum there is always going
:11:38. > :11:41.to be a closing of the gap. I've looked at the betting sites
:11:42. > :11:45.recently, and this morning the yes vote has moved out slightly. It's
:11:46. > :11:49.gone more towards the no campaign. I think inevitably, as you get closer
:11:50. > :11:53.to the date, people focus on it. But the thing that the meat is so
:11:54. > :11:58.important is, unlike a referendum for further powers, this is
:11:59. > :12:04.irreversible and it makes Scotland a foreign country and cuts it off from
:12:05. > :12:07.the rest of the UK. And I firmly believe that politically,
:12:08. > :12:11.economically, socially, in every way, that the countries are better
:12:12. > :12:16.together. That has not caught the imagination of people though, has
:12:17. > :12:19.it? First of all, David Cameron, would have to resign, do you think
:12:20. > :12:26.question you don't think Tory MPs would call for him to go? He
:12:27. > :12:31.presided over a 300 year union and failed question I would call to
:12:32. > :12:34.resign, but I don't think the amount of effort he has put in to try to
:12:35. > :12:37.try to keep the union together that he should resign if the vote goes
:12:38. > :12:42.the other way. Rather, I want to make sure that he focuses on what
:12:43. > :12:49.would happen, because there needs to be an awful lot of energy. There
:12:50. > :12:53.will be a constitutional crisis. For me, yes it would be a constitutional
:12:54. > :12:56.crisis. It would be that the Labour Party because they would struggle to
:12:57. > :13:01.win an election in the near future. -- it would be for the Labour Party.
:13:02. > :13:07.Is this labour's failure to even hold on to their own mainstay
:13:08. > :13:10.voters? They are bleeding support to the SNP and the Yes campaign because
:13:11. > :13:16.they have been too complacent in Scotland and they don't believe Ed
:13:17. > :13:24.Miliband will win next year. No. Really? Why are they going to the
:13:25. > :13:28.SNP then? There is always excitement about what is seen as insurgent, and
:13:29. > :13:31.to use a derogatory term of language, what is an
:13:32. > :13:36.antiestablishment campaign. I grew up in Scotland and I have a strong
:13:37. > :13:45.sense of the distinctiveness of Scotland within the union. That is
:13:46. > :13:54.what this seeks to recognise. But I believe that the no campaign will
:13:55. > :14:02.win the referendum. It is not... There is a lot of Westminster
:14:03. > :14:06.introspection. And panic. Not panic. Had 13 people recorded their
:14:07. > :14:12.intention differently in this poll, the story would have been a
:14:13. > :14:16.completely different one. Everybody recognises 20 points ahead before.
:14:17. > :14:18.The momentum is now with the Nationalists and with the
:14:19. > :14:25.independence campaign. They have their offer... The momentum is with
:14:26. > :14:33.a great moment for Scotland, which is referendum day. The no campaign
:14:34. > :14:47.will be working and identifying those people who feel tempted by the
:14:48. > :14:50.insurgency of the Yes campaign. They need to explain precisely what the
:14:51. > :14:55.consequences would be. Would it have been better if Labour had not been
:14:56. > :14:58.in a broad coalition going into Scotland to try and sell the
:14:59. > :15:02.prounion argument? They should have gone up and sold the left-wing
:15:03. > :15:07.campaign to try and outdo the Nationalists on the fairer society,
:15:08. > :15:13.the social democracy? This is not a time for that. It was the wrong
:15:14. > :15:19.campaign? This is a time to persuade hearts and minds. I am sure that
:15:20. > :15:21.every single political party, including the Nationalists, will
:15:22. > :15:24.have the Rhone postmortem after, but we are in this to persuade the
:15:25. > :15:31.people of Scotland to remain part of the union.
:15:32. > :15:40.Has it been the wrong campaign? I heard Henry McLeish saying this
:15:41. > :15:43.should have been a hearts and minds campaign, that's how Scotland work
:15:44. > :15:47.and the "no" campaign wasn't? That's not the case. What the "no" campaign
:15:48. > :15:53.has sought to do is point out the consequences. You said earlier, or
:15:54. > :16:04.in a question, independence is not for Christmas. This is in perpetuity
:16:05. > :16:09.not just for us but for our children and grandchildren, and what we have
:16:10. > :16:14.heard already, everything will be the best in all possible independent
:16:15. > :16:18.worlds. If Scotland were to be independent it would face a large
:16:19. > :16:24.number of challenges, some of which are emphasised today, and the
:16:25. > :16:28.markets are spooked. It is all very easy to say the Chancellor can fix
:16:29. > :16:31.this by announcing there will be a currency union, but all three
:16:32. > :16:37.parties made it clear some time ago there wouldn't be one. Didn't spook
:16:38. > :16:40.the markets. Far from that, it re-enforced them, because the
:16:41. > :16:45.markets are concerned with the union in which one important constituent
:16:46. > :16:51.part of it sets its own tax, decides what the levels of borrowing are and
:16:52. > :16:56.it's own interest rates. How can you run an effective single currency if
:16:57. > :17:01.you have all three of threes at the discretion of one part of it? There
:17:02. > :17:08.is a contemporary ill slayings and that's the union in the single
:17:09. > :17:14.currency. Not enough voters are being persuade. Does the general
:17:15. > :17:19.election get called off next year if the "yes" vote wins? I see not
:17:20. > :17:23.reason... Even if Scottish MPs would be sitting ducks? I see no
:17:24. > :17:28.justification for that. That would only muddy the waters, but you make
:17:29. > :17:33.a very good point, which is this - it's been said that change can all
:17:34. > :17:37.be done in 18 months. During that period and well beyond it, if you
:17:38. > :17:42.think there's uncertainty in the moment there as sure as hell will be
:17:43. > :17:48.then, because the notion of extracting from uT United Kingdom, a
:17:49. > :17:53.Scottish -- from the United Kingdom, to the extent that we are across the
:17:54. > :17:59.border and the income tax and the welfare and all three armed
:18:00. > :18:03.services, Ofcom, Ofgem, and every single thing you can think of which
:18:04. > :18:09.is UKwide will have to be deconstructed. How long do you think
:18:10. > :18:16.that will take and cost? Why did the Scottish Secretary say he would
:18:17. > :18:21.switch sides in the event of a "yes" vote? He said it would be the duty
:18:22. > :18:24.of people like him to do everything they could in the interests of
:18:25. > :18:29.Scotland and he was willing to do that to ensure the settlement that
:18:30. > :18:32.was achieved was as best as could possibly be obtained. Blair Jenkins
:18:33. > :18:41.has been sitting there and listening. Your response to what our
:18:42. > :18:47.three guests have said? There may be a majority of five to one and they
:18:48. > :18:51.are proud of the process. We've had a mature and responsible debate for
:18:52. > :18:54.more than two years now and on the issues aired by the panel they've
:18:55. > :18:57.been fully aired and discussed, people are making up their minds.
:18:58. > :19:01.People are deciding and all the evidence we have, not just the poll,
:19:02. > :19:08.but everything I see and hear, says people are moving to question. Blair
:19:09. > :19:14.Jenkins, thank you very much. It's time for the daily quiz. The
:19:15. > :19:19.question for today is about the US President, President Obama. He was
:19:20. > :19:24.in the country last week, but before heading home he took the chance to
:19:25. > :19:31.visit a popular visitor attraction. Was it:
:19:32. > :19:42.Was it Barry Island, altonne towers and -- Alton Towers or threes two.
:19:43. > :19:50.We can only divide the screen into four. What about Blackpool Tower or
:19:51. > :19:55.Loch Lomond. Only eight months to the general election. The Liberal
:19:56. > :19:59.Democrats have this morning launched their pre-manifesto, whatever that
:20:00. > :20:02.is. What's in it? He's had a tough time in Government, but Nick Clegg
:20:03. > :20:05.is keen for more. What is he going to be shouting about? Well, expect
:20:06. > :20:10.to hear a lot about plans to extend the 15 hours a week of free
:20:11. > :20:14.childcare to parents of all two-year-olds. To be paid for by
:20:15. > :20:18.scrapping the Conservatives' plans to introduce a tax break for some
:20:19. > :20:22.couples. Among the others, a commitment to raise the amount you
:20:23. > :20:27.have to earn before you pay income tax to ?12,500. And a promise to
:20:28. > :20:34.protect all education spending from early years to college. Those aged
:20:35. > :20:40.16 to 21 in England will be handed a young persons bus pass, giving them
:20:41. > :20:44.a 66% discount, funded by scrapping TV licences and the winter fuel
:20:45. > :20:49.allowance for pensioners who qualify as higher rate taxpayers. The NHS
:20:50. > :20:53.budget will be ring-fenced and they promise to increase taxes on the
:20:54. > :20:58.wealthiest. With eight months to go, the party is struggling in the
:20:59. > :21:05.polls. Last Sunday they were on just 7%. Many observers argue the party
:21:06. > :21:10.is suffering from breaking their commitment on tuition fees, so the
:21:11. > :21:14.big question is which of the policies are red lines and which are
:21:15. > :21:18.negotiatable? The man in charge, David Laws, he joins me from
:21:19. > :21:24.Westminster. Welcome to The Daily Politics. In 2012, when Nick Clegg
:21:25. > :21:27.apologised for the tuition fees pledge, he said the Liberal
:21:28. > :21:30.Democrats shouldn't make a promise they were not absolutely sure they
:21:31. > :21:35.can deliver. Are you absolutely confident you can deliver everything
:21:36. > :21:40.in this? Yes, I believe we can, but obviously it also depends not just
:21:41. > :21:43.on what we - the way in which we cost, but the outcome of the general
:21:44. > :21:47.election, because parties have to sit down, if there's a hung
:21:48. > :21:50.Parliament, and negotiate with each other. The Conservative Party last
:21:51. > :21:56.time had to sacrifice some of the biggest pledges in its manifesto,
:21:57. > :22:08.such as the pledge they made to raise the Inheritance Tax
:22:09. > :22:10.thresholds. I'm confident. And it's what happens after the hung
:22:11. > :22:15.Parliament when you have to negotiate with another party and no
:22:16. > :22:19.party is able to say they can impose 100% of a manifesto on anybody else.
:22:20. > :22:25.If there was one thing in that manifesto that you would say you
:22:26. > :22:27.would not drop under any circumstances, even in a coalition
:22:28. > :22:33.negotiation, which would ensure you were in government again, what would
:22:34. > :22:36.it be? We will say more closer to the election what the highest
:22:37. > :22:39.priorities are, but I think you can guess through the priority that we
:22:40. > :22:44.have given in this Parliament to things like raising the income tax
:22:45. > :22:47.allowance, and things like that, commitments on education, they are
:22:48. > :22:50.very important to us. They are what Liberal Democrats are about. Tuition
:22:51. > :22:55.fees were important too, weren't they? They were important, yes, but
:22:56. > :23:00.we faced a situation where firstly neither of the other potential
:23:01. > :23:04.parties of coalition were willing to agree to it and secondly, we had to
:23:05. > :23:09.do what the other parties had to do after an election, which is sit down
:23:10. > :23:13.and come to an agreement with those other parties and also make sure
:23:14. > :23:17.that we had the finance to do all of the things that the other parties
:23:18. > :23:23.wanted to do, as well as ourselves. How much will this cost? We'll
:23:24. > :23:28.publish a costings paper closer to the general election. Obviously, it
:23:29. > :23:33.depends on the way in which we phase some of the policies in. We have
:23:34. > :23:38.income tax and childcare, which have given us long-term and bold
:23:39. > :23:42.ambitions and how we implement those, stage them in. We'll publish
:23:43. > :23:47.the figures before the next election, but what Nick Clegg did
:23:48. > :23:51.say today is that the proposals that are in the pre-manifesto, that we
:23:52. > :23:56.published today, are actually considerably less expensive than the
:23:57. > :24:01.manifesto we stood on in 2010. You have learnt your lessons then? We
:24:02. > :24:05.have. I'm personally confident if we were a Liberal Democrat government
:24:06. > :24:10.by ourselves and we didn't have to negotiate with others, then all that
:24:11. > :24:14.we put in our pre-manifesto today is deliverable. We've been every
:24:15. > :24:19.careful about that. Can you tell us, you'll know how much it would cost
:24:20. > :24:25.to raise the personal allowance to ?12,500? It depends how rapidly you
:24:26. > :24:29.do it. How much as a total? Over the lifetime of a Parliament it's
:24:30. > :24:33.something like ?5 billion per year by the end of the Parliament.
:24:34. > :24:36.Obviously, there are some increases in the allowance that will happen
:24:37. > :24:41.through indexing for inflation. That would be by the end of the
:24:42. > :24:45.Parliament. Looking at mansion tax, you failed to get anywhere with
:24:46. > :24:48.that. That was during this Parliament. What makes you think,
:24:49. > :24:53.unless you are in coalition with Labour, you'll be able to get that
:24:54. > :24:58.through this time? Every negotiation with another party is a separate
:24:59. > :25:02.one. And how you did on the previous occasion didn't necessary -- doesn't
:25:03. > :25:07.necessarily mean you won't be successful or not. The Conservatives
:25:08. > :25:11.are pretty well saying that's not going to happen, even though
:25:12. > :25:15.privately George Osborne was warming to it? There was a moment in the
:25:16. > :25:22.Parliament where the Conservatives did come close to agreeing something
:25:23. > :25:27.that looked tax on high-Qual ewe properties, so I'm not -- high-value
:25:28. > :25:32.priorities, so I'm not writing that off. Some of the pledges you could
:25:33. > :25:36.introduce now or you could have introduced while in government. Why
:25:37. > :25:43.haven't you, like universal childcare? In this cases it's simply
:25:44. > :25:52.going to be the short-term financial consequences, as you know. We are
:25:53. > :26:02.already rolling out at the moment two-year education, so 0% of
:26:03. > :26:04.two-year-olds -- so 40 of two-year-olds. Increase in the
:26:05. > :26:09.personal tax allowance that will occur in April next year. In part,
:26:10. > :26:13.it's that on principle we could have done some of the other things, but
:26:14. > :26:17.we have to make sure that in the short term they're affordable and
:26:18. > :26:20.actually some of the things will become more affordable in the next
:26:21. > :26:25.Parliament. Last month, you accused the Conservatives of putting cuts
:26:26. > :26:28.before tackling poverty a priority as far as you're concerned. You
:26:29. > :26:33.would go into coalition with the Conservatives if they were the
:26:34. > :26:37.largest parties? We are not able to say we would go into coalition with
:26:38. > :26:42.anybody, prior to having a negotiation about the things that we
:26:43. > :26:49.stand for. If we were - if it was to be proposed we went into coalition
:26:50. > :26:54.and if we weren't secure in terms of policies of course we would say no.
:26:55. > :26:57.It all depends on how much of the Liberal Democrat programme for
:26:58. > :27:03.government and how much of the policies we have announced today we
:27:04. > :27:07.are enable to enact. You'll be holding the parties to ransom? It's
:27:08. > :27:11.not about that. The Conservative Party and the Labour Party in a hung
:27:12. > :27:14.Parliament would have to do the same and sit down, if they failed to
:27:15. > :27:19.secure a majority and figure out how to get a sensible programme for the
:27:20. > :27:24.country for the Parliament. We did that in a mature way in 2010. We did
:27:25. > :27:26.it quickly and efficiently in contrast to what many people
:27:27. > :27:31.expected before the general election. I'm sure we would do it
:27:32. > :27:38.calmly and sensibly if there's a hung Parliament. You may not have -
:27:39. > :27:42.you may be able to take more time if the economic circumstances would be
:27:43. > :27:45.different as to when you started negotiate in coalition in 2010. Have
:27:46. > :27:48.you enjoyed the coalition with the Conservatives? I've enjoyed the fact
:27:49. > :27:53.that the Liberal Democrats have actually been in government being
:27:54. > :27:56.able to do something rather than criticising the Government of the
:27:57. > :28:01.day. It's been a tough time to be in government, because of the scale of
:28:02. > :28:06.the deficit we inherited. We have had to do things we haven't wanted
:28:07. > :28:09.to do, but also been able to deliver policies like the pupil premium and
:28:10. > :28:15.the higher personal tax allowance that we are passionate about and if
:28:16. > :28:18.the choice is between being in government and sitting on the
:28:19. > :28:22.sidelines I know what I would prefer any day of the week. Are you missing
:28:23. > :28:29.Michael Gove? I got on well with Michael Gove. He was an entertaining
:28:30. > :28:31.guy and passionate and cared very much about social mobility,
:28:32. > :28:35.particularly improving the life chances of young people and the
:28:36. > :28:39.disadvantaged, but these matters are decided by the Prime Minister and
:28:40. > :28:46.I'm now working very well his successor. Well done. David Laws,
:28:47. > :28:50.thank you. Thank you. If the Tories are the largest party, but not big
:28:51. > :28:53.enough to form a majority government, would you want a
:28:54. > :28:57.minority or coalition with the Liberal Democrats? First, I'm
:28:58. > :29:01.working for a majority government and I'm sure Tessa will be working
:29:02. > :29:06.for a majority government. We would expect you to say that. I'm not
:29:07. > :29:09.impressed by the Liberal Democrats showing a bit of leg to both
:29:10. > :29:14.parties. This is what it's all about. The Liberal Democrats -- Why
:29:15. > :29:17.shouldn't they? They are saying, "Come with us, we'll be there to
:29:18. > :29:21.prop you up." Do you like what you hear? Not particularly. What is it
:29:22. > :29:26.you don't like? Some of the things you didn't mention. I understand
:29:27. > :29:32.already in this pre-election manifesto they're ruling out
:29:33. > :29:37.expanding the airports, but they'll look at the Davies Commission and
:29:38. > :29:43.also they would move to decriminalising drugs. Ming can tell
:29:44. > :29:46.me about those, but they are a case of wanting your cake and eating it.
:29:47. > :29:53.I don't take this launch very seriously. I think it's a lot of
:29:54. > :29:59.apple pie. And mother hood. I think that they need to remember that
:30:00. > :30:05.unfortunately the electoral politics meant there had to be a deal done.
:30:06. > :30:09.And And if they're the same again? I would prefer not to. Having served
:30:10. > :30:13.in the government in coalition, I would prefer to go it alone with a
:30:14. > :30:17.minority government. How many of your colleagues feel the same way? I
:30:18. > :30:20.don't mean exact numbers. I think there's a number that would share
:30:21. > :30:24.the same view. That's a problem, Ming, because you can show as much
:30:25. > :30:27.leg as you like, but if the Conservatives and many of Cheryl's
:30:28. > :30:30.colleagues feel - and we know many have had enough of coalition and
:30:31. > :30:33.they feel they haven't been able to do the things they want to do,
:30:34. > :30:35.despite David Laws saying they've achieved a lot in coalition, then
:30:36. > :30:49.you are going to be frozen out. show because it is up to the public
:30:50. > :30:51.to decide. Whichever party has the largest number of seats will say
:30:52. > :30:58.they will have a minority government. They could do. Yes, and
:30:59. > :31:01.there are consequences, because if we're worried about uncertainty in
:31:02. > :31:04.the markets, then if ever there was a way to create uncertainty in the
:31:05. > :31:09.markets, it is having a minority government. If there is a supply and
:31:10. > :31:16.demand deal done with the Liberal Democrats then? Well, that is a
:31:17. > :31:20.deal. Would you be up for that? It is what the public decide they want,
:31:21. > :31:23.and in those circumstances everything must be on the table. But
:31:24. > :31:27.it's important to make this point, minority governments last a few
:31:28. > :31:32.months and then you have to go to the country, and if you're concerned
:31:33. > :31:36.about certainty in the economy, the notion of two general elections in a
:31:37. > :31:40.few months will not help that, and nor will it be welcome to the public
:31:41. > :31:44.who expect, if they produce a result which is not clear-cut in the way we
:31:45. > :31:50.are describing, that some effort would be made to find a common
:31:51. > :31:55.purpose, as we did after 2010, when we were staring over the abyss. This
:31:56. > :31:59.time it will be different. You might argue that the markets will be
:32:00. > :32:01.calmer. They have seen what has happened in coalition and there
:32:02. > :32:05.could be more time and flexibility for negotiation which could be, as
:32:06. > :32:10.far as the Labour Party are concerned, they would not make the
:32:11. > :32:13.same mistake again. They will make sure that if they don't have enough
:32:14. > :32:20.seats, they will match up with the Liberal Democrats. I don't think
:32:21. > :32:24.that is a given at all. What David laws is talking about is a kind of
:32:25. > :32:28.hung parliament manifesto because the Liberal Democrats are not going
:32:29. > :32:32.to form a majority government. Like Cheryl, my party, the Labour Party,
:32:33. > :32:38.we would want to form a majority government and to be able to
:32:39. > :32:46.implement the manifesto. But I was part of the discussions immediately
:32:47. > :32:50.after the defeat in 2010, and when the Liberal Democrats were riding
:32:51. > :32:54.considerably higher than they are now, I think there are questions
:32:55. > :32:57.about the nature of democracy. For instance, if the Liberal Democrats
:32:58. > :33:03.have lost a substantial number of seats, is it really right, are you
:33:04. > :33:08.really responding to what the public have said in the election by saying,
:33:09. > :33:11.OK, you can tag along with us and then we will be in government. These
:33:12. > :33:18.are the kind of questions that are unresolved. Let's say you lose 15 or
:33:19. > :33:22.20 seats... I will deal with that in a moment. But if anybody fails to
:33:23. > :33:28.get an overall majority then you have to do understand that that is a
:33:29. > :33:31.judgement of the public, just as if the Liberal Democrats were to lose
:33:32. > :33:37.seats, that would have to be taken into account. The polling suggests
:33:38. > :33:41.that the local parties are strong, and when members of Parliament are
:33:42. > :33:47.as effective as they can be, then then the stark reality of the
:33:48. > :33:53.average opinion poll taken through the country will not be reflected in
:33:54. > :33:59.any way in the result. That is a fair point. Would you do a minority
:34:00. > :34:08.Labour government or coalition with the Liberal Democrats question we
:34:09. > :34:12.are going to be majority government. Knocking on the doors of people
:34:13. > :34:17.around the UK, we are not saying, will you help us enter a coalition?
:34:18. > :34:22.But you like the mansion tax, you agree with that, and you could
:34:23. > :34:26.negotiate over the top rate. There are so many things you share with
:34:27. > :34:30.the Liberal Democrats. We are going to be the majority government. That
:34:31. > :34:38.is what we are working for and campaigning for. There is a hint of
:34:39. > :34:42.Alex Salmond here. There is no Alex Salmond in this. Are you not
:34:43. > :34:48.planning for a coalition? Was that not the mistake last time round? Of
:34:49. > :34:51.course we are not planning for a coalition. We are planning a
:34:52. > :34:57.programme to offer to the British people, and we hope... There have
:34:58. > :35:01.been all sorts of overture was made by Ed Miliband though. I think there
:35:02. > :35:09.has been more reporting of it than actual over jewels. Ming Campbell
:35:10. > :35:16.will stand on the doorstep and say we will go with either party. Tessa
:35:17. > :35:22.and I can say this is the manifesto. I resent the implication. It is the
:35:23. > :35:23.voter that loses out when the politicians just get the deal in the
:35:24. > :35:31.end. I resent the invitation. So, TUC General Secretary,
:35:32. > :35:33.Frances O'Grady thinks British society currently resembles one
:35:34. > :35:35.of our favourite TV programmes, Here's what she had to say
:35:36. > :35:48.at their annual conference Come the election, we all face a
:35:49. > :35:55.choice. Are we going to settle for a nasty and poorer Britain? A Downton
:35:56. > :35:59.Abbey style society in which the living standards of the vast
:36:00. > :36:05.majority are sacrificed to pay for the high living of the well-to-do
:36:06. > :36:13.question where the blame is heaped on the most vulnerable. Migrants,
:36:14. > :36:18.claimants, while the powerful and privileged sit pretty. Or are we
:36:19. > :36:23.going to seize the opportunity and build a new and fair economy that
:36:24. > :36:29.provides the people of this country with good skilled jobs?
:36:30. > :36:34.Well, Francis O'Grady joins us now from Liverpool.
:36:35. > :36:41.You say Britain can afford pay rises for public sector workers for
:36:42. > :36:46.sustained growth in the economy, so do you want to congratulate George
:36:47. > :36:50.Osborne for that sustained growth? The problem is that George Osborne
:36:51. > :36:54.personally overturned the recommendation of the independent
:36:55. > :36:58.pay review body that looks at the evidence and recommended a very
:36:59. > :37:01.modest 1% increase for nurses and midwives and other health care
:37:02. > :37:08.workers, and George Osborne said no, they would not get a penny. That is
:37:09. > :37:11.one reason why people feel so fed up as it seems like George Osborne
:37:12. > :37:17.talks about a recovery in the economy but it's not one in which
:37:18. > :37:21.ordinary people share. But you do accept there has been a recovery and
:37:22. > :37:28.it's come about as a result of George Osborne and the coalition's
:37:29. > :37:32.economic policies? I suspect that wealth is really created by the
:37:33. > :37:36.people who go to work for a living. And, in fact, we know the recovery
:37:37. > :37:41.has been much slower than other countries, but even so, we have had
:37:42. > :37:45.economic recovery for two years. Ordinary people, on average, have
:37:46. > :37:50.taken pay cuts in real terms for the last four years. We think it's time
:37:51. > :37:53.Britain had a pay rise. You are absolutely right. Wages have been
:37:54. > :37:59.behind the prices for years and there is no sign of it going the
:38:00. > :38:02.other way. What would be your proposal? What sort of pay rise
:38:03. > :38:09.would you like to see for public sector workers? All we are asking is
:38:10. > :38:13.that George Osborne respects the recommendations of that independent
:38:14. > :38:16.pay review body. But we also think the government should send a signal
:38:17. > :38:24.that we should be heading for a living wage, a wage people can live
:38:25. > :38:27.in dignity on, and half a million local government workers don't earn
:38:28. > :38:30.a living wage. That is not sustainable and ultimately not good
:38:31. > :38:34.for the economy of people don't have money to spend in local shops and
:38:35. > :38:39.businesses. Let's have a look at affordability. Over the last year,
:38:40. > :38:42.there have been retail indications that show that people are spending
:38:43. > :38:50.more than they were a year ago and you are calling for a ?10 minimum
:38:51. > :38:57.wage. Is that affordable? It is certainly a goal. But is it
:38:58. > :39:00.affordable? Nobody is saying it should be delivered tomorrow, but we
:39:01. > :39:07.are saying we can afford a higher minimum wage, much more than the ?6
:39:08. > :39:11.50 it will rise to next October, and the truth is, could you live on
:39:12. > :39:17.that? I know I couldn't and I'm sure George Osborne could not either.
:39:18. > :39:22.What about current levels of public borrowing? Do you know how much they
:39:23. > :39:28.are at the moment? I haven't got the figures on me, but as I say, I think
:39:29. > :39:32.we have had one of the slowest recoveries, and many people, many
:39:33. > :39:35.economists argue that is because the government cut far too deeply, and
:39:36. > :39:39.the problem is that people are beginning to spend more, but they
:39:40. > :39:44.are still dipping into what little savings they have or they are
:39:45. > :39:47.getting further into debt. It's not a sustainable way to run the
:39:48. > :39:52.economy, and I think the Chancellor has do rethink it. Compared to
:39:53. > :40:02.countries in the Eurozone, where unemployment is running at 27%,
:40:03. > :40:07.youth unemployment at 47% in Spain. The forecasts from the office of the
:40:08. > :40:11.budget responsibility for borrowing is ?95.5 billion. I come back to the
:40:12. > :40:17.question, and I'm saying you are not having the minimum wage tomorrow,
:40:18. > :40:26.but is it right to have the goal of a ?10 minimum wage is, I think it is
:40:27. > :40:30.absolutely sustainable to have their wages in the public sector. Unions
:40:31. > :40:33.are the first people to say let sit around the table and talk about jobs
:40:34. > :40:40.and services and let's talk about pay. We understand the trades off
:40:41. > :40:43.that have to be made, but we want people to have the respect to talk
:40:44. > :40:46.to their own workers. I never thought I would see the day that
:40:47. > :40:53.midwives would be balloting for strike action. It takes a lot of the
:40:54. > :40:57.people to feel so insulted and so worried about managing their bills
:40:58. > :41:05.that that is what it has come to. I really think that this government
:41:06. > :41:08.needs to talk and listen. You also accuse the coalition of creating a
:41:09. > :41:13.Downton Abbey society where migrants and claimants are blamed rather than
:41:14. > :41:17.helped. Do you agree it is the case that many union members support
:41:18. > :41:19.things like the welfare cap and restriction on benefits for new
:41:20. > :41:25.migrants because they are the ones that have suffered? I think if you
:41:26. > :41:30.listen to the whole speech, you would have heard me say that nobody
:41:31. > :41:33.likes cheating in welfare and we know that there is a very small
:41:34. > :41:39.minority of those who do cheating welfare, and they need to be
:41:40. > :41:42.tackled, just as the far greater amounts we see avoided by companies
:41:43. > :41:48.when they should be paying their taxes. But there is strong support
:41:49. > :41:52.here for a strong welfare system and there is also a growing feeling that
:41:53. > :41:57.the problem is not migrant workers, the problem is employers exploiting
:41:58. > :42:03.them and undercutting their pay. Again, we would like to see some
:42:04. > :42:09.tough talk and action for the minority of bad employers. How much
:42:10. > :42:13.of what Frances O'Grady has said with the Labour government be
:42:14. > :42:20.willing to implement? I agree with a lot of what she just said. I think
:42:21. > :42:25.she was being very reasonable. I think, and we do have a national
:42:26. > :42:31.minimum wage, and I would hope that there could be a real drive with the
:42:32. > :42:36.trade unions as partners to see more employers paid the living wage. And
:42:37. > :42:43.the ?10 as a goal? You would not sign up to that? We have a low pay
:42:44. > :42:48.commission, and they will have additional powers to ensure
:42:49. > :42:53.enforcement of the minimum wage, because the point Frances O'Grady
:42:54. > :42:59.makes is right, that one of the reasons why there is a sense of
:43:00. > :43:03.alienation in workplaces and some parts of the country is this sense
:43:04. > :43:08.that migrant workers are undercutting the national minimum
:43:09. > :43:16.wage. We would make sure that the low pay commission brought cases
:43:17. > :43:21.against those who did that. How many cases have been brought? Hardly any.
:43:22. > :43:28.The numbers are negligible. I'm not sure that is reassuring people in
:43:29. > :43:33.low paid work, but they are worried. Many Labour Party members, and many
:43:34. > :43:37.union members, are about immigration, migrants taking low
:43:38. > :43:40.paid work that could be theirs. That is how that has been expressed to
:43:41. > :43:46.the Labour Party and they don't think you've done enough about it. I
:43:47. > :43:53.don't accept that. First of all, we know that family income has fallen
:43:54. > :43:59.under this government. It is very important that the protective floor
:44:00. > :44:03.of the national minimum wage is properly implemented and that we set
:44:04. > :44:13.our ambition higher than that. With employers and trade unions to secure
:44:14. > :44:15.the living wage. But if you have non-cash benefits like childcare,
:44:16. > :44:20.which are very important for families who are really
:44:21. > :44:24.struggling... We do have to move on. We might be able to come back to
:44:25. > :44:28.some of these issues later in the programme.
:44:29. > :44:31.This afternoon David Cameron will make a statement in the House
:44:32. > :44:33.of Commons about last week's Nato summit in Wales.
:44:34. > :44:35.Also today, the cross-party House of Commons Commission meets
:44:36. > :44:38.and is expected to discuss whether to create two top jobs to
:44:39. > :44:44.On Tuesday, a devo max paper on Scotland - setting out how and
:44:45. > :44:47.when powers could be transferred - expected to be backed by Mr Cameron,
:44:48. > :44:52.Mr Miliband and Nick Clegg, could be published as soon as tomorrow.
:44:53. > :44:54.And Boris Johnson will no doubt be prepping hard all week
:44:55. > :44:57.for a selection meeting to choose the next Conservative candidate
:44:58. > :45:04.Joining me now from College Green are the Sun's Political Editor,
:45:05. > :45:11.Tom Newton Dunn and Tamara Cohen from the Daily Mail.
:45:12. > :45:17.First of all, is there a general sense of panic about Westminster
:45:18. > :45:30.following this poll that put the Yes campaign narrowly ahead, or is it
:45:31. > :45:33.overstated? There is panic. Interesting this morning where the
:45:34. > :45:40.PM's spokesman tells us about the week ahead. Usually it's a good
:45:41. > :45:43.kickabout, but for 50 minutes we talked about nothing but Scotland.
:45:44. > :45:48.One question on the end about something else. Scotland is the only
:45:49. > :45:53.game in town. The YouGov polls last week and the Sunday Times have
:45:54. > :45:57.thrust us all into a single-track mode and there is now a massive
:45:58. > :46:02.problem about what to do on eversing this momentum and switching away
:46:03. > :46:06.from yes. Talking about the Government want to reverse, has this
:46:07. > :46:11.been a wake-up call that has come too late or is it what the "no"
:46:12. > :46:14.campaign needs? It's been a collective intake of breath this
:46:15. > :46:20.morning, with the poll. I don't think there was that realisation
:46:21. > :46:25.that the "yes" campaign has gone from 22 points behind in the polls
:46:26. > :46:30.to one point ahead, so there's panic and also a real feeling they they
:46:31. > :46:33.failed to develop a strategy for the "yes" campaign seizing the momentum
:46:34. > :46:37.at the last minute. We have had George Osborne this weekend talking
:46:38. > :46:41.about giving Scots more control of their destiny and we'll get more of
:46:42. > :46:46.that from the three parties by devolution. We now hear there's not
:46:47. > :46:49.going to be anything new in it, but reiterating the same. There's
:46:50. > :46:56.definitely panic mode over the next ten days. We'll talk about
:46:57. > :46:59.speculation. Tom, say there's a victory for the "yes" campaign,
:47:00. > :47:07.would David Cameron have to resign? It's inevitable. I don't think a
:47:08. > :47:11.Prime Minister could hang on having presided over - whether it's his
:47:12. > :47:16.fault or not - it would change the politics and finances, our defence,
:47:17. > :47:20.welfare system. The country and England itself would also be
:47:21. > :47:23.unrecognisable and I think there would be an enormous clamour for new
:47:24. > :47:27.leadership to get us through that and I suppose what's interesting
:47:28. > :47:30.about today, with another development this morning, that the
:47:31. > :47:36.Prime Minister, David Cameron, is now almost entirely totally
:47:37. > :47:41.powerless in this crusade to save the union. It's down to Labour's big
:47:42. > :47:45.beasts to try to turn those Labour voters, who are the ones that are
:47:46. > :47:49.causing this massive cascade towards the "yes" vote. The PM's job is on
:47:50. > :47:53.the line. I certainly believe that, but he has to sit on his hands,
:47:54. > :47:58.which is an extraordinary predicament to be in. Following on
:47:59. > :48:04.from that, what do you think happens to the 2015 election if there is a
:48:05. > :48:08.victory for the "yes" vote? It leaves it in chaos. We have a
:48:09. > :48:13.situation where Scots wouldn't leave the union if they vote yes until
:48:14. > :48:17.March 2016. They would get to vote in the 2015 election and they are 41
:48:18. > :48:25.Labour MPs and one Conservative in Scotland. There could be a situation
:48:26. > :48:28.where Scottish Labour MPs are propping up a Miliband government
:48:29. > :48:32.next year and they would all leave in 2016 and leave them without a
:48:33. > :48:35.majority. A bit of a constitutional crisis. There has been discussion
:48:36. > :48:39.about having to delay the election by another year, although we
:48:40. > :48:43.understand that has been ruled out because the prospect of having six
:48:44. > :48:47.years of one government is considered something that shouldn't
:48:48. > :48:53.go ahead because of this. Since you talked about it all mourn, Tom,
:48:54. > :48:57.something else briefly. The NATO rapid reaction force that was
:48:58. > :49:02.announced, with contribution from the UK, returning to the Cold War?
:49:03. > :49:06.It would be nice, wouldn't it, if the combined armies and allies of
:49:07. > :49:10.the West were to get together and face down two, even three, different
:49:11. > :49:16.tleeTS, certainly Ukraine and the Islamic State threat in the Middle
:49:17. > :49:19.East. And then there's Gaza and pass Stein and Israel. I don't --
:49:20. > :49:24.Palestine and Israel. I don't think it will happen. The force was the
:49:25. > :49:27.best that a reasonably weakened, divided summit could come up with.
:49:28. > :49:30.Remember one third will be British and the whole thing will be
:49:31. > :49:34.British-led. There is a feeling among NATO that something must be
:49:35. > :49:38.done, but there's no commitment whatsoever to do anything
:49:39. > :49:44.substantial about it, so very far from the days of the grand alliance
:49:45. > :49:49.that won the Cold War. Tom Newton Dunn and Tamara Cohen, enjoy your
:49:50. > :49:52.week. Our panel, as you can see, you are young, thrusting, modernising
:49:53. > :49:56.types, but what about rest of Parliament? Does it need to be
:49:57. > :50:00.dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century? I said that with
:50:01. > :50:03.conviction. This week, MPs will discuss whether to split the role of
:50:04. > :50:07.the clerk of the Commons in order to have a Chief Executive who can
:50:08. > :50:12.devote all his or her time running the place and have a separate role
:50:13. > :50:16.for an expert to advise the speaker on Parliamentary procedure, but is
:50:17. > :50:20.this necessary, Ming? You have to remember that the role of the clerk
:50:21. > :50:25.of the House has constitutional significance. Not least because the
:50:26. > :50:29.appointment is actually made by the Queen on the recommendation of the
:50:30. > :50:34.Prime Minister. So far as I know recently, there has never been an
:50:35. > :50:39.occasion when that recommendation was made and the monarch of the day
:50:40. > :50:43.turned it down. Building on what we have been talking about this
:50:44. > :50:49.morning, the next 18 months at least are perhaps -- or perhaps the next
:50:50. > :50:51.five or six years, will be enormously significant in
:50:52. > :50:55.constitution. Think of the legislation that will be necessary
:50:56. > :51:00.if there was a vote for independence in order to give effect to that. If
:51:01. > :51:04.ever there was a time when the help of Parliament you need somebody who
:51:05. > :51:09.is thoroughly and completely skilled in that and remember, we are a
:51:10. > :51:14.legislature, we are not a business. It just happens that there are quite
:51:15. > :51:18.a lot of business motions. Don't doubt that for a moment. I don't see
:51:19. > :51:28.why you cannot create a structure in which the clerk of the House retains
:51:29. > :51:32.his or her position, but that you have someone who is responsible like
:51:33. > :51:36.that of the chief operating officer. The Chief Executive, with a chief
:51:37. > :51:40.operating officer. You can construct something of that kind, which helps
:51:41. > :51:43.you deal with the business issues, but also preserves the primacy and
:51:44. > :51:49.constitutional importance of the clerk. This has been caused, this
:51:50. > :51:54.row, by John Bercow, proposing Carol Mills from the Australian
:51:55. > :51:59.Parliament, who many feel she is not adequately qualified. Does he
:52:00. > :52:04.survive this? That's not for me to judge, but fo the House. What do you
:52:05. > :52:09.think? I have to tell you that the situation that has arisen over the
:52:10. > :52:13.clerk is for me like telling a whole lot of heart surgeons they're moving
:52:14. > :52:19.to the top of their profession and then appointing a dentist to head up
:52:20. > :52:23.that section of the hospital. For me, Ming is absolutely right and I
:52:24. > :52:30.agree, we need that expertise from that number of men and women that
:52:31. > :52:35.have come up between all the administrations, that has that
:52:36. > :52:40.experience that they can impart. Has he made a mistake. There was a
:52:41. > :52:45.panel, not just him. What I don't want to do is use this as a rod to
:52:46. > :52:50.beat the Speaker. Right. You don't think that. I don't think it's
:52:51. > :52:54.right. That is the important thing. Of course, the House of Commons has
:52:55. > :52:58.got to keep on modernising and being efficient and effective and I think
:52:59. > :53:02.Ming has set out the case clearly, but this is being used as a proxy by
:53:03. > :53:09.people who don't like John Bercow to get at him. We should stand up for
:53:10. > :53:13.him, because he believes in ensuring that the House reflects all the
:53:14. > :53:19.expectations of the public. We'll talk about a popular subject, MPs'
:53:20. > :53:23.pay. Are you in the line of one advertising company, are you worth
:53:24. > :53:28.it, a 10% increase? I'm not standing at the next election. The fact is
:53:29. > :53:33.that the independent Parliament standards authority was set up to
:53:34. > :53:40.determine MPs' pay. Why, because there was a broad consensus after
:53:41. > :53:47.expenses that MPs should not -- Are MPs worth it? Yes. Are they worth
:53:48. > :53:51.it? I think most MPs do a thoroughly, good job and it should
:53:52. > :53:57.be decided on independently. This is the wrong time. Yes, they are. I
:53:58. > :54:00.have said this to Lorraine Kennedy's face, at this moment, and we have
:54:01. > :54:06.heard Frances O'Grady, the idea that we would get - I'm not standing
:54:07. > :54:10.after next May either. The idea we get a 10% increase immediately
:54:11. > :54:15.before an election frankly makes so sense whatsoever. There is a good
:54:16. > :54:21.reason for that, if someone may choose that, but where do the
:54:22. > :54:23.burdens fall? MPs will be responsible. Everyone who stantes in
:54:24. > :54:27.the next general election will be asked the question, will you or will
:54:28. > :54:32.you not take it? Rich people will say no, people who need the money
:54:33. > :54:38.will say, they think they will take it. It distorts the position. What
:54:39. > :54:41.do you get when you cross Angela Merkel and John Prescott? I dread to
:54:42. > :54:47.think. Or Boris Johnson and Karl Marx. Please, don't send your
:54:48. > :54:52.answers in. Our Adam has been out and about finding out about some
:54:53. > :54:56.pretty strange political mashups. Westminster tube, used by more than
:54:57. > :55:02.30,000 people every day. Lots of them hacks. And MPs. They're always
:55:03. > :55:05.bombarded with adverts for something, whether a campaign,
:55:06. > :55:18.company or lobby group, but look what has popped up today. Yes, it's
:55:19. > :55:23.Maggie and gevara. Do you think the guerilla look suits her? I don't
:55:24. > :55:28.think any look suits her, but not the worst. The whole point is to get
:55:29. > :55:34.people to think not left and right, but do you think it's good? I don't
:55:35. > :55:41.think so really. Personally, I don't think they should have altered the
:55:42. > :55:51.image like that. Who is it dig respectful to who? Thatcher. We are
:55:52. > :55:57.Conservative mainly, so posters don't do nothing for me. I kwieBG
:55:58. > :56:02.like Margaret Thatcher. There are plenty more to come. Boris with Karl
:56:03. > :56:08.Marx and Angela Merkel with John prosecution so the. All dreamt up by
:56:09. > :56:11.a group called the Social Economy Alliance. We want to get to that
:56:12. > :56:16.part of people's brains where they have to stop and think and have to
:56:17. > :56:18.be confused and reorder the thoughts and allow a different space for a
:56:19. > :56:23.different way of thinking about economics and business. Even the
:56:24. > :56:32.ticket barriers are plastered with them, so tonight I've got to decide
:56:33. > :56:37.do I go home through Michaels Foot and Gove or May and Harman. It's so
:56:38. > :56:42.difficult. Since you enjoyed that so much, team cue have a go at trying
:56:43. > :56:48.to divide the mash yups we have put together. No-one like the Angela
:56:49. > :56:52.Merkel and John Prescott one. We'll go for the first one. Take a look
:56:53. > :57:02.and see if you can tell us who they are. Who is this? Douglas Carswell
:57:03. > :57:12.and Andrew George. No, David Cameron. Not a good look. No. We'll
:57:13. > :57:18.try number two. Highly improbable! Yes, it is. Number two. That's an
:57:19. > :57:31.interesting mashup. Who do you think that is? Boris Johnson and... I'm
:57:32. > :57:36.frightened to say. No, say it. I love the fact that you're frightened
:57:37. > :57:44.to say. There's a passing resemblance to somebody who is
:57:45. > :57:59.sitting next to me. Number three. Who is that? Ming the Terrible? I'm
:58:00. > :58:05.afraid it's me. It's not just you. It's Ming the Merciless and you? Do
:58:06. > :58:10.you like that? The principal cartoonist in The Guardian for a
:58:11. > :58:14.long time, that was his motif, and after I became leader he made me
:58:15. > :58:18.look less frightening. We have time to find out the answer to the quiz.
:58:19. > :58:23.Do you remember the question, after the summit, where did President
:58:24. > :58:29.Obama go? Stonehenge. Do you remember the picture with the
:58:30. > :58:32.family. They must have been surprised to see President Obama
:58:33. > :58:36.going through. Yes, there it is. That is the correct answer. Well
:58:37. > :58:41.done all of you. I'm going to say thank you to all our guests. I'm
:58:42. > :58:45.sorry the programme goes through so quickly. We had so much to talk
:58:46. > :58:48.about. The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now and
:58:49. > :58:52.I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories of the
:58:53. > :59:05.day. Make sure you join me. From all of us here, goodbye.
:59:06. > :59:08.Until there's concrete proof he's acting irresponsibly,
:59:09. > :59:18.What are you doing?! Don't get him out!