:00:37. > :00:38.Good afternoon, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:40.The three pro-union parties bury their differences to offer Scotland
:00:41. > :00:43.a new timetable for more powers for the Scottish Parliament - but will
:00:44. > :00:48.it be enough to halt the apparent momentum behind the Yes campaign?
:00:49. > :00:49.Free schools, academies, specialist schools, technical colleges.
:00:50. > :00:51.There's an array of different schools on offer
:00:52. > :00:54.in England these days - but will they drive up standards or
:00:55. > :01:05.Baby boomers have more than enough money to fund their retirement
:01:06. > :01:12.according to new research - so is it time to cut their benefits?
:01:13. > :01:14.The South Yorkshire Police Commissioner will tell a Commons
:01:15. > :01:17.committee why he won't resign over the Rotherham child abuse scandal.
:01:18. > :01:30.What's happened to the champions of accountable policing?
:01:31. > :01:34.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole of the programme
:01:35. > :01:36.today is the former Conservative Cabinet Minister Kenneth Baker.
:01:37. > :01:40.First this afternoon, as we've got a former Conservative
:01:41. > :01:44.Party chairman with us, let's turn to the party's fortunes.
:01:45. > :01:47.A poll by Lord Ashcroft yesterday put Labour seven points ahead -
:01:48. > :01:55.though other recent polls have shown a narrower lead.
:01:56. > :02:01.Why is it that Labour has a strong lead in one poll and is still ahead
:02:02. > :02:03.this most others, when according to the Conservatives, and the
:02:04. > :02:08.Government in general, the economy is recovering? Well, I am not
:02:09. > :02:12.worried about the existing polls because when the election approaches
:02:13. > :02:16.as we discovered in Scotland they get closer and they will get closer
:02:17. > :02:18.when the main factor of the next general election will be
:02:19. > :02:22.Presidential between Cameron and Miliband. You are relying on the
:02:23. > :02:25.personality of the leadership. If the polls close, I put it to you
:02:26. > :02:29.that Labour still on paper, because of all the reasons that have been
:02:30. > :02:34.set out, because of boundaries and the way the election process is
:02:35. > :02:39.carried out, Labour still wins To be even we have to be nine points
:02:40. > :02:43.ahead. That was 2010 on polling day, we didn't get through the boundary
:02:44. > :02:48.change bill, which is a mistake, so we have a huge disadvantage, but
:02:49. > :02:52.there are other factors coming in to bear on the election, not least
:02:53. > :02:56.Scotland. It is a different constitutional world we will live
:02:57. > :03:01.in, either way, whether they go yes or no, there is a huge change
:03:02. > :03:07.heading up for Britain. What about issues where the Conservatives and
:03:08. > :03:09.many Conservative MPs feel that they are being challenged by UK
:03:10. > :03:15.Independence Party. The issue of immigration for example? UKIP, the
:03:16. > :03:19.interesting analysis of UKIP support is the basic support of UKIP comes
:03:20. > :03:24.from the old British working class. They are the core of UKIP votes. And
:03:25. > :03:27.that will affect Labour seats as well as Conservative seats, it is
:03:28. > :03:31.not only a down side for the Conservative, it is a down side also
:03:32. > :03:34.for Labour. This is why Miliband is so concerned, he is quiet about it.
:03:35. > :03:38.I will bring breaking news to you and we will get your response which
:03:39. > :03:42.is that David Cameron, the Prime Minister, Ed Miliband the Leader of
:03:43. > :03:46.the Labour Party have agreed to cancel their weekly Question Time,
:03:47. > :03:50.Prime Minister's Questions clash, to travel to Scotland. Now, what do you
:03:51. > :03:54.say to that? That is very good of them. It shows how worried they are.
:03:55. > :03:59.There is no doubt that it is neck and neck in Scotland now, and they
:04:00. > :04:03.have the great advantage, in this referendum of having the best thing
:04:04. > :04:09.to vote for. It is much better to be saying yes, yes, yes to something
:04:10. > :04:12.than no, no, no. And some, one of the first big victory in the
:04:13. > :04:15.question, the question should have within do you want to stay in the
:04:16. > :04:19.United Kingdom? That is the answer to yes. The actual question of the
:04:20. > :04:23.referendum is do you want to have a free Scotland, yes. No is on the
:04:24. > :04:29.back foot. Has the become clear in the last few days. What impact will
:04:30. > :04:33.it have, seeing both David Cameron, Ed Miliband and in fact Nick Clegg,
:04:34. > :04:37.all three main UK party leaders will be in Scotland. They won't appear
:04:38. > :04:41.Tottenham together for obvious reason, do you think that will have
:04:42. > :04:46.a major impact on the tightening of the polls. It is intensify concern
:04:47. > :04:50.of those who want no, and the undecided, it is the undecided now,
:04:51. > :04:56.the people who have de Vrijjed are 50-50. You have 14, 15% undecided.
:04:57. > :04:59.You have to go for those, the fact the three leading political figures
:05:00. > :05:03.are going to Scotland to show their concern will be helpful. Do you
:05:04. > :05:09.think that David Cameron as the leader of the Tory party, as well as
:05:10. > :05:13.being Prime Minister, will actually put off potential voters in Scotland
:05:14. > :05:17.on the issue of independence, as many people have said, which is why
:05:18. > :05:21.he has been relatively low-key in this campaign, and they have allowed
:05:22. > :05:25.Gordon Brown, a former Labour Prime Minister to take the lead with this
:05:26. > :05:29.latest offer. It is basically the Labour vote you are going for, that
:05:30. > :05:33.is why Brian was there yesterday. Miliband is going tomorrow. They are
:05:34. > :05:37.doing that because it the Labour vote that is undecided. You see,
:05:38. > :05:41.what is interesting about this, the Labour Party went for a Scottish
:05:42. > :05:44.Parliament to diffuse Scottish nationalism and it failed. The
:05:45. > :05:51.Conservatives didn't support it at the time Agreed. They are now in the
:05:52. > :05:54.position of being worried by it. If the Scot Nates win and they go yes
:05:55. > :05:58.the Labour Party in Scotland will be on the retreat. Will David Cameron
:05:59. > :06:03.survive? Well, that is very interesting, will he resign or not?
:06:04. > :06:10.Yes or no? It is not as simple as that. There is a precedent when
:06:11. > :06:13.George III lost the colonies he didn't abdicate but his Prime
:06:14. > :06:18.Minister offered to resign, and the king didn't accept it. So the Queen
:06:19. > :06:22.may not accept the resignation if it the made. Should he? That is a
:06:23. > :06:25.personal decision for him, but the Queen may not accept it, because who
:06:26. > :06:29.does she ask to be the Prime Minister? Who forms the Government?
:06:30. > :06:34.They may lead to a immediate general election. We will continue talking
:06:35. > :06:40.about the question of independence in Scotland, we will come back to
:06:41. > :06:43.this issue that David Cameron and Ed Miliband won't appear at Prime
:06:44. > :06:53.Minister's Questions. It is not being cancelled. William Hague and
:06:54. > :06:56.Harriet Harman will face each other, so David Cameron and Ed Miliband
:06:57. > :07:01.will join Nick Clegg up in Scotland. I think we can talk to our political
:07:02. > :07:05.editor Nick Robinson. This is a dramatic news, isn't it, out of
:07:06. > :07:10.Westminster, if we are going to have all three party leaders in Scotland.
:07:11. > :07:14.Does this smack of panic? It does, it reveals really, the grow of
:07:15. > :07:19.anxiety there is among Westminster party leaders that Scotland is about
:07:20. > :07:24.to vote, not just to go her own way but to break up the United Kingdom
:07:25. > :07:27.to end Britain as we know it. Now, the decision was taken, I am told by
:07:28. > :07:31.David Cameron and Ed Miliband when they met to discuss the Scottish
:07:32. > :07:34.referendum, straight after the Commons statement on the NATO
:07:35. > :07:38.summit, yesterday afternoon. But, for people who think, well, so what,
:07:39. > :07:42.it is like missing a day in the office, it is more important than
:07:43. > :07:45.that, one of the question constitutional duties of a Prime
:07:46. > :07:49.Minister is to face questions in the House of Commons. One of the key
:07:50. > :07:52.duties of the leader of the opposition to lead that questioning,
:07:53. > :07:56.for them to voluntarily give that up in agreement with Nick Clegg, the
:07:57. > :07:59.Leader of the Labour Party, in order to head to Scotland, is pretty
:08:00. > :08:04.dramatic, and shows just how concerned they are. They are not
:08:05. > :08:07.going to appear together which perhaps isn't all together
:08:08. > :08:11.surprising, what what message are they each going to give to Scottish
:08:12. > :08:15.voter, will they differ in that sense? It is the message in their
:08:16. > :08:21.joint statement, we want you to stay. This is modelled, I think, on
:08:22. > :08:25.what was used by pro Canadian campaigner, in the Quebec
:08:26. > :08:29.referendum. Remember, those of you that know this, what happened in
:08:30. > :08:33.Quebec just as in Scotland the yes side pulled ahead, there was a panic
:08:34. > :08:36.that Canada might be broken up and one of the things that is said to
:08:37. > :08:40.have pulled that back, in a very very narrow victory in that
:08:41. > :08:43.referendum, for the no campaign, is the statement coming from the rest
:08:44. > :08:48.of Canada, in this case, the rest of the UK, that we want you to stay.
:08:49. > :08:52.That is why, for example, you are seeing Ed Miliband saying that the
:08:53. > :08:56.saltire would be raised in Liverpool, along with the lead other
:08:57. > :08:59.the City Council. That is why it will be flown over Downing Street
:09:00. > :09:02.later today, that is why there will be an encouragement by all the
:09:03. > :09:07.political party, their members and supporters and no doubt to people
:09:08. > :09:10.who run Town Halls throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland,
:09:11. > :09:14.fly the flag to show you want Scotland to stay. And this of course
:09:15. > :09:18.after headlines today, saying Gordon Brown, a former Prime Minister, was
:09:19. > :09:24.going to save the union and save the day. Yes, in a sense what was vital
:09:25. > :09:29.for them about yesterday, is the fight back was led by a Scot, in
:09:30. > :09:34.Scotland, and by Labour, so some people thought than Gordon Brown had
:09:35. > :09:37.stolen the Tories's thunder or a government announcement, it wasn't
:09:38. > :09:42.as simple as that, the unionist parties have been talking with each
:09:43. > :09:46.forefor a long time. What was true is that Gordon Brown said "I am the
:09:47. > :09:51.guy who can do this now." And David Cameron is seen as too English and
:09:52. > :09:56.too Tory. Ed Miliband's trust ratings in the latest polls are as
:09:57. > :09:59.bad as David Cameron's which is remarkable, given he the Leader of
:10:00. > :10:04.the Labour Party, Alistair Darling got a bloody nose from Alex Salmond
:10:05. > :10:08.and therefore the view was this must be seen and seen to be a Labour
:10:09. > :10:12.initiative, did, could you count number of times they told you it was
:10:13. > :10:16.a Labour initiative ged in virtually every sentence but it had been
:10:17. > :10:19.co-ordinated with all the parties behind the scenes. It was Gordon
:10:20. > :10:24.Brown as we have been hearing from our political end to who set out a
:10:25. > :10:29.timetable to deliver more powers for Scotland the event of a no vote in
:10:30. > :10:32.next weeks referendum. It was better together's responsibility to polls
:10:33. > :10:43.suggesting that support for the two camps is neck and neck. The poll
:10:44. > :10:48.which has yes one point ahead of no, once undecideds are. A new poll was
:10:49. > :10:52.released today. Gordon Brown's timetable endorsed by the three main
:10:53. > :10:57.parties would seal work beginning on new legislation the day after the
:10:58. > :11:01.referendum. By the end of October, a command paper would be published by
:11:02. > :11:04.the Government setting out the proposals and a White Paper would be
:11:05. > :11:09.published by the end of November. Finally, there would be draft
:11:10. > :11:14.legislation by the end of January, what mared next week Scotland is set
:11:15. > :11:18.to gain new powers under the 2012 Scotland Act. From 2016 Holyrood
:11:19. > :11:22.will have the power to vary income tax by ten pence and borrow more
:11:23. > :11:26.money. The Scottish Government will have power over air gun,
:11:27. > :11:31.drink-driving and speeding limits. At the moment, the party's differ on
:11:32. > :11:37.what further power should be given to Scotland. The Conservatives says
:11:38. > :11:40.Holyrood should have full income tax powers. Labour would volcanic ash
:11:41. > :11:48.Ritz and the Liberal Democrats who want a more federal UK, would give
:11:49. > :11:52.Scotland further control over taxation including inher tanth tans
:11:53. > :11:59.tax and income tax. We are hoping to be joined by Blair McDougall of the
:12:00. > :12:04.better together campaign and we are joined by Angus report son. Welcome.
:12:05. > :12:07.Let us get your response to this dramatic news. David Cameron and Ed
:12:08. > :12:11.Miliband are travelling to Scotland, they are going to try and say to
:12:12. > :12:18.Scottish voters, stay with the union. Yes, you can literally smell
:12:19. > :12:21.the panic here on College Green as the Westminster establishment is
:12:22. > :12:24.going into meltdown, really important for you viewers elsewhere
:12:25. > :12:29.in the UK, to hear the numbers because they haven't been told them
:12:30. > :12:35.yet, that support for yes is up six, support for no is down six and we
:12:36. > :12:39.are seeing a projected turn out of 84% in the referendum, which is
:12:40. > :12:48.tremendously good news for yes. Now what we are seeing in Scotland, is
:12:49. > :12:51.the panicked reaction with the three London-based parties, rewarming an
:12:52. > :12:56.announcement on minimal further devolution, which, as I understand
:12:57. > :13:00.it, is only going to give the Scottish Parliament and Government
:13:01. > :13:06.control of only 30% of Scottish tax revenue, as opposed to independence
:13:07. > :13:11.and 100%, and all the -- all ready that proposal is falling apart today
:13:12. > :13:16.in Scotland, so I guess what is happening is that the three UK
:13:17. > :13:20.leaders are realising they have to get involved and do something, I
:13:21. > :13:23.suppose one of the good things that might come out of it is David
:13:24. > :13:26.Cameron might find a backbone when he is in Scotland and debate Alex
:13:27. > :13:33.Salmond. You have heard it here first! Let us take up the general
:13:34. > :13:37.thrust which is there the panic, that seems to be fairly clear, they
:13:38. > :13:41.are throwing the kitchen sink at this, which could pressuredown,
:13:42. > :13:45.because there is still a significant number of undecided and don't knows
:13:46. > :13:47.in Scotland, you have the former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown,
:13:48. > :13:51.who is taking the lead on bringing forward this timetable. We have
:13:52. > :13:57.heard the other three party leaders are going to be in Scotland. You are
:13:58. > :14:02.under an awful lot of pressure, because what you are promising is
:14:03. > :14:06.going to take longer to deliver to Scotland than what is being offered
:14:07. > :14:11.by the better together campaign. They will be able to offer more
:14:12. > :14:15.powers, a version of Home Rule says Gordon Brown ahead of your 2016
:14:16. > :14:20.timetable. Did you say the pressure is on the yes campaign? The pressure
:14:21. > :14:24.is on the no campaign. It is tight Their support is down and there is a
:14:25. > :14:29.huge transfer of people not just from undecided. People from no,
:14:30. > :14:34.today, one of the most significant business leaders in Scotland, Ian
:14:35. > :14:38.Gordon, who was head of the Defence Industry Association has declared he
:14:39. > :14:43.has moved from no to yes. He is not alone, there are people all over
:14:44. > :14:50.Scotland deciding. That is why it is panic stations.
:14:51. > :14:58.Let's put that to Blair McDougall, who is joining us from Glasgow. Are
:14:59. > :15:03.you panicked? This is extraordinary. The reason Angus is so upset, and
:15:04. > :15:07.can I say, it is great to see him at Westminster, good to see that he can
:15:08. > :15:12.travel down here to be on television, even if he could not go
:15:13. > :15:15.to Westminster to vote on the bedroom tax. We want more powers in
:15:16. > :15:21.Scotland, but without the huge economic risks of separation. We can
:15:22. > :15:26.now see that despite them saying for 2.5 years, every time concerns were
:15:27. > :15:31.raised about jobs, or about the NHS, they told us we were scaremongering,
:15:32. > :15:37.but we can see in the real reaction of the markets, where ?2.3 billion
:15:38. > :15:42.was taken off the price of Scottish companies yesterday. These things
:15:43. > :15:45.are real. Yes, we are giving greater clarity, greater guarantees to
:15:46. > :15:50.people about what they will get with a no vote, but what that does, along
:15:51. > :15:54.with the reaction from the market, is that it exposes the fact that
:15:55. > :15:58.there are no guarantees from the other side whatsoever. So why do you
:15:59. > :16:02.need David Cameron and Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband to rescue your
:16:03. > :16:06.campaign? That is not the case at all, we have been doing this for
:16:07. > :16:10.months, talking about the powers that will be coming to the Scottish
:16:11. > :16:13.Parliament. There has been a clear consensus about bringing more
:16:14. > :16:17.welfare powers to Scotland. What we are seeing is the parties coming
:16:18. > :16:20.together and throwing their full authority behind it, because this is
:16:21. > :16:25.where people are making up their mind. The other side cannot even
:16:26. > :16:31.tell us what currency we would use. We, on the other hand, want to give
:16:32. > :16:34.voters absolute clarity. I can hear Angus laughing down the line, but
:16:35. > :16:40.maybe he can stop laughing and tell us why he did not come down to vote
:16:41. > :16:44.against the bedroom tax. Under the current settlement, does the
:16:45. > :16:49.Scottish Government have complete control over how to run, and how
:16:50. > :16:56.much money to spend on, the NHS in Scotland? It is a hand-me-down
:16:57. > :17:00.budget from Westminster. It is determined by how much money is
:17:01. > :17:04.transferred... You asked me a question, if you will allow me to
:17:05. > :17:09.finish... One of the great advantages with a yes vote is that
:17:10. > :17:13.we will be in charge of 100% of Scotland's budget. Even with this
:17:14. > :17:18.latest plan, the anti-Independence parties do not trust the government
:17:19. > :17:24.of Parliament Scotland to determine more than 30% of Scotland's budget.
:17:25. > :17:27.On the bedroom tax, it is important to clarify, when there was a
:17:28. > :17:33.substantive vote on it, I voted against it, and Labour MPs
:17:34. > :17:36.abstained, I am sorry. I will interrupt this little argument
:17:37. > :17:40.between yourselves, I want to get back to the question about the NHS,
:17:41. > :17:45.because you do have power over policy on the NHS. You can choose
:17:46. > :17:49.how much of the block grant to spend on the NHS, you can increase income
:17:50. > :17:54.tax to a limited extent. If you wanted to put more money into the
:17:55. > :17:58.NHS, you could. So I put it to you that you are putting up a strawman,
:17:59. > :18:02.saying to Scottish voters that the NHS in Scotland is under threat
:18:03. > :18:07.without Independence - that is not true. The keyword you used was
:18:08. > :18:17.limited, which is exactly correct. If you will let me answer, again...
:18:18. > :18:22.You are not answering my question. You have not given me a chance. What
:18:23. > :18:26.is correct to say is that Scotland's budget is handed down
:18:27. > :18:30.from Westminster, and with a yes vote, we will change all of that.
:18:31. > :18:35.But is why so many people around Scotland are saying the best way to
:18:36. > :18:40.protect it, as opposed to the privatisation route being pursued
:18:41. > :18:43.down here, is a yes vote. These are the reasons why the no campaign is
:18:44. > :18:47.totally rattled, they have lost the initiative, they are going to lose
:18:48. > :18:53.the referendum. Who does have control over the NHS in Scotland,
:18:54. > :18:57.Blair McDougall? We do. We have 100% control over the NHS, which means we
:18:58. > :19:03.can protect the budget for the NHS in Scotland. That is a precise quote
:19:04. > :19:07.from the manifesto which Angus wrote in 2011 for the Scottish Parliament
:19:08. > :19:14.elections. This is a scare story they have concocted. The interesting
:19:15. > :19:18.thing is, firstly, the SNP government themselves are overseeing
:19:19. > :19:21.a massive increase in private provision in the NHS in Scotland.
:19:22. > :19:27.This is total hypocrisy from them, to cover up the fact that they know
:19:28. > :19:31.that the real threat to the NHS in Scotland is the huge ?6 billion of
:19:32. > :19:35.additional cuts, over and above UK cuts, which have been identified by
:19:36. > :19:40.the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Why in this latest offer that we are
:19:41. > :19:44.hearing about does the no campaign say, we will pledge to protect the
:19:45. > :19:52.NHS in Scotland from further austerity, if Scotland has 100%
:19:53. > :19:55.control? Well, the tax powers which are within this often means that
:19:56. > :20:05.Scotland can make decisions about public spending. What percentage of
:20:06. > :20:09.Scotland's budget? The SNP government has chosen not to spend
:20:10. > :20:14.money on health. This is the ridiculous side of the SNP, who have
:20:15. > :20:20.a terrible record on health in Scotland, and who are trying to
:20:21. > :20:24.blame the government down south. Blair, what percentage of
:20:25. > :20:28.Scotland's budget will be determined by the Scottish Parliament, the
:20:29. > :20:33.Scottish Government, under your campaign's proposals, is it more or
:20:34. > :20:39.less than 30%, simple question? We have set out the plans in terms of
:20:40. > :20:44.giving more powers to Scotland. There are disagreements on the
:20:45. > :20:52.details, for example, do we go on three quarters of income tax, or do
:20:53. > :20:56.we do 100% of income tax? For you, that will be enough reason to break
:20:57. > :21:00.up a 300-year-old union. The only tax power you really want to bring
:21:01. > :21:04.to Scotland I know is a power to bring a massive tax cut to the
:21:05. > :21:08.wealthiest companies in Scotland. You talk about simple questions,
:21:09. > :21:12.last night, Alex Salmond could not tell us how much that huge tax cut
:21:13. > :21:17.for the richest companies in Scotland would cost, so maybe you
:21:18. > :21:22.could answer that question? You will have to ask him on another
:21:23. > :21:25.occasion. Thank you both very much. So, people in Scotland seem to be
:21:26. > :21:29.tied on the future of their country, but what about the
:21:30. > :21:33.English? Ed Miliband was in Liverpool today, encouraging the
:21:34. > :21:36.people in England to urge Scots to reject independence, raising the
:21:37. > :21:41.sole tyre over Liverpool Town Hall, and asking other councils to follow
:21:42. > :21:46.suit. We want people in cities, towns and villages across the United
:21:47. > :21:49.Kingdom to fly the Scottish flag, because we want to send a clear
:21:50. > :21:54.message to the people of Scotland, please stay with us, because we
:21:55. > :21:58.believe we are strong together. And we are starting here in Liverpool,
:21:59. > :22:02.to send the message that we can achieve equality and social justice
:22:03. > :22:05.together. We are now joined by two English men
:22:06. > :22:10.with differing views on how Scotland should vote, the historian Tom
:22:11. > :22:13.Holland, who is urging people in Scotland to vote no. Simon Jenkins
:22:14. > :22:22.thinks they should vote yes to independence. Why has it taken this
:22:23. > :22:26.poll, 11 days before the referendum, for the rest of the UK to wake up to
:22:27. > :22:32.the prospect of the break-up of the union? Well, I think people have
:22:33. > :22:36.been aware of the risks. Myself and fellow historian Dan Snow wrote a
:22:37. > :22:39.letter six months ago, and we have spent the last months getting
:22:40. > :22:43.assorted celebrities, all kinds of people, to sign it. Since we put
:22:44. > :22:48.that up, we have been having more and more people from across England,
:22:49. > :22:50.Wales and Northern Ireland putting their signatures to it, because
:22:51. > :22:55.ultimately, what matters is that when people to wake up, there is a
:22:56. > :22:59.framework for them to express their emotions of admiration for the
:23:00. > :23:05.Scottish people, and let them know that we in the rest of the united
:23:06. > :23:08.into want those bonds of citizenship to be maintained. So this is
:23:09. > :23:13.demonstrating big love, if you like, for Scotland. Do you think that
:23:14. > :23:17.emotional connection has been missing? I think there is a kind of
:23:18. > :23:23.awkwardness about expressing Patria to some, perhaps, and expressing the
:23:24. > :23:28.idea of Britishness. We are an uptight people, that is the
:23:29. > :23:34.stereotype. But I think the time has come where we have to make it
:23:35. > :23:39.absolutely clear, it is up to the Scots to decide whether they go, but
:23:40. > :23:43.it would be terrible for them to go thinking that the rest of the United
:23:44. > :23:48.Kingdom did not care. What is your view, it is everyone's union, isn't
:23:49. > :23:53.it, it will affect everyone? I do not disagree, I would be sorry to
:23:54. > :23:57.see Scotland go, as I would be sorry to see Wales go, but I do not think
:23:58. > :24:01.it is as big an issue as it has begun to seem. If I was a Scot, I
:24:02. > :24:06.would think, this has gone on long enough, there is no such thing as
:24:07. > :24:10.full independence any more, the days of these big confederations are
:24:11. > :24:14.over, all of Europe is breaking up, in a sense, that time has come. I
:24:15. > :24:17.think we all need to calm down a bit, it has got completely
:24:18. > :24:21.hysterical. I do not think it would make a big difference either to the
:24:22. > :24:25.Scots or the English, but if I was a Scotsman, I think I would say,
:24:26. > :24:30.enough is enough of this relationship. Are you going to
:24:31. > :24:34.profess your emotional connection? I married a Scot, our three children
:24:35. > :24:38.went to Scottish universities. That neither of the last two are quite
:24:39. > :24:45.right. The real solution is a federal solution for the whole of
:24:46. > :24:50.the United Kingdom, that is how you keep this lot together. Either a
:24:51. > :24:56.solution of a completely independent Scotland, or a devo max Scotland,
:24:57. > :25:01.does not really answer it. That is exactly why I am so keen for the
:25:02. > :25:06.Scots to stay, because the union has not been a frozen entity, it has
:25:07. > :25:10.continuously evolved, as before them the kingdoms of Scotland and England
:25:11. > :25:14.evolved. I think the traditions and values and ideals which the Scots
:25:15. > :25:20.have brought to Britain, to this great merging of traditions, is
:25:21. > :25:24.precisely is what has made Britain such a great nation. Looking at the
:25:25. > :25:29.optimism which is on display in Scotland at the moment, what I am
:25:30. > :25:34.hoping is that the Scots will vote to stay with us and channel that
:25:35. > :25:38.optimism for the good of everyone in this kingdom. Why in your mind is
:25:39. > :25:42.independence better for the Scots? I think the days when you had these
:25:43. > :25:48.comp located confederacy is, like the European Union, they are over.
:25:49. > :25:55.Small, countries now want to be independent. Small is beautiful.
:25:56. > :25:59.Small countries do better than bigger countries, it is in control
:26:00. > :26:11.at. Luxembourg does better than France. But leave that to one side.
:26:12. > :26:15.-- incontrovertible. Sovereignty is clearly desperately wanted by at
:26:16. > :26:20.least half of Scots. I do not think it is a bad thing, self-government,
:26:21. > :26:23.we want to detach ourselves from the European Union, to a certain
:26:24. > :26:27.extent. People believe in governing themselves nowadays, they are grown
:26:28. > :26:31.up, they are mature. They do not want to be told what to do by the
:26:32. > :26:35.English. I think it is a sensible decision, and we should not get so
:26:36. > :26:40.excited about it. There are quite a number of people who would actually
:26:41. > :26:45.like to see Scotland go independent, they do not want to see promises of,
:26:46. > :26:50.we will protect your NHS from cuts, what about the NHS in England, what
:26:51. > :26:54.about all of these other promises? The Scots are being offered
:26:55. > :26:58.everything, and the English will feel, hang on, why are we doing
:26:59. > :27:02.this? I think that is very much a minority. Is it? I think a
:27:03. > :27:09.substantial minority would like Scotland to stay. I think also one
:27:10. > :27:13.of the risks of Scotland going independent, and as you say, people
:27:14. > :27:17.in England are suddenly waking up to this, and there is a mood of alarm,
:27:18. > :27:22.and of pain, and I think that when people are reject it, that is when
:27:23. > :27:29.attitudes tend to freeze. I suspect that the one person who will benefit
:27:30. > :27:34.from this will be England's Alex Salmond, who is clearly Nigel
:27:35. > :27:37.Farage. Do you think the 2015 general election, if there is a
:27:38. > :27:42.victory for the yes vote, will have to be postponed? I do not think it
:27:43. > :27:45.would be. I think there is a possibility of having a general
:27:46. > :27:52.election before Christmas if there is a yes vote, because there is a
:27:53. > :27:56.huge constitutional model. The welfare benefits of Scotland with
:27:57. > :28:01.English money. That is not a fair situation. The English feel this
:28:02. > :28:06.very strongly. What is going to happen in Northern Ireland, what is
:28:07. > :28:09.going to happen in Wales? You are playing with the whole constitution
:28:10. > :28:12.of our country, which could be the subject of a general election.
:28:13. > :28:17.Whoever wins that election would have to years. If we do not have an
:28:18. > :28:20.early general election, the coalition government would have to
:28:21. > :28:24.do part of the planning, then another government might come in in
:28:25. > :28:30.May and change a lot of it. I have no doubt that a yes vote would be
:28:31. > :28:34.pretty disastrous, constitutionally. Both in Scotland and in the rest of
:28:35. > :28:39.the United Kingdom, which is one of the major reasons I hope they will
:28:40. > :28:44.vote no. But beyond that, more than any of these issues, this is not
:28:45. > :28:48.ultimately I think about finance or economics, ultimately, this is about
:28:49. > :28:52.identity, and whether those of us in this country will be able to
:28:53. > :28:55.continue to be simultaneously English or Scottish or Welsh or
:28:56. > :29:02.Northern Ireland and British, or have those identities diced up and
:29:03. > :29:05.demarcated? What do you say about identity, Simon Jenkins, because you
:29:06. > :29:15.have attended lots of independence and debates? I think you have got to
:29:16. > :29:18.get a grip on the single fact, which is that Scotland, Wales and Northern
:29:19. > :29:23.Ireland have been dreadfully badly run by England for the past 25
:29:24. > :29:28.years, they really have been badly run. Have they not done well to some
:29:29. > :29:31.extent, financially? Yes, they have. They are literally
:29:32. > :29:36.old-fashioned dependencies. There is no reason why Scotland should not be
:29:37. > :29:40.as rich as Denmark. Why shouldn't Wales be poorer than the rest of
:29:41. > :29:43.Britain when it used to be richer than the rest of Britain? These are
:29:44. > :29:47.not successes. I think an independent Scotland would be a
:29:48. > :29:52.pretty terrible place for ten years, but after that it would be a very
:29:53. > :29:55.exciting place. This is like a kind of 1950s prep school teacher, saying
:29:56. > :30:00.having a cold shower would be good for you. Sometimes it is good for
:30:01. > :30:06.you, it is patronising to say it is not. Those days are over. Let me
:30:07. > :30:12.come back to the celebrity support, because many people might think it
:30:13. > :30:17.is rather patronising, so what about getting ordinary people, if you feel
:30:18. > :30:21.they are so passionate, to support the campaign? That is what they did
:30:22. > :30:23.in Quebec, and they said it tipped the balance in favour of staying
:30:24. > :30:38.together, rather than independence. The sway of the luminaries we have
:30:39. > :30:44.got, 200 people says something about how strongly everyone in Britain
:30:45. > :30:48.feels. But I also think that the reason I am here is because I
:30:49. > :30:51.organised that letter, the reason that attention is being fixed on
:30:52. > :30:55.that letter and we are getting signatures from across Britain is
:30:56. > :31:01.because the celebrities blazed the cause. The only reason we wrote it
:31:02. > :31:06.is we want more and more people to go to the website and sign up to it.
:31:07. > :31:11.You are a better historian and home fission. I would say one thing, in
:31:12. > :31:15.praise of you, you were positive about the virtue of hanging
:31:16. > :31:18.together. That has been missing from the no campaign, it has been on the
:31:19. > :31:22.back foot, exaggerating the difficulty, what you wanted somebody
:31:23. > :31:26.to say from the beginning, look, we love you, we want you with us and we
:31:27. > :31:34.like that sort of thing, that is why the three leaders are going to
:31:35. > :31:38.Scotland, they are injecting pops it I have. . The point about Scotland,
:31:39. > :31:44.Scotland economically, is the richest part of the country, after
:31:45. > :31:50.London and the south-east. Do you want to answer that briefly.
:31:51. > :31:56.Any figures can be countermanded. I am sure the Government would say
:31:57. > :31:58.that. Simon Jenkins and Tom Holland thank you.
:31:59. > :32:01.Next, whether it's a free school, faith school or foundation school,
:32:02. > :32:03.they all come in different shapes and sizes.
:32:04. > :32:05.It means there's a long list of confusing education lingo
:32:06. > :32:07.for parents and pupils to get their heads around.
:32:08. > :32:10.And across England there's a relatively new breed of schools
:32:11. > :32:12.called University Technical Colleges - the brainchild of our guest
:32:13. > :32:28.These aren't toy tool, they are the real thing. At industry standard
:32:29. > :32:32.they are normally found on the factory floor, so this might not
:32:33. > :32:39.look like your average school, and it isn't. This is a rare specimen, a
:32:40. > :32:43.UTC or University Technical College.
:32:44. > :32:45.University Technical College are secondary schools for
:32:46. > :32:51.14-19-year-old, they are taxpayer funded, flee to go to and they are
:32:52. > :32:54.not selective. They teach the main academic subjects but the emphasis
:32:55. > :32:58.is on practical and technical learning, and they are different
:32:59. > :33:04.from other schools because they have to be sponsored by university, with
:33:05. > :33:08.backing from businesses too. So no prizes for guessing which
:33:09. > :33:15.London employer is supporting royal Greenwich UTC. Yes, that is right.
:33:16. > :33:19.Transport for London. Mike Sharp is the principle here and admits they
:33:20. > :33:24.need to work hard to get the school noticed by parents We have advert
:33:25. > :33:31.fire, we have our face on the backs of bus, we send out mail shots, we
:33:32. > :33:34.get media coverage, once the message gets out, people can look round and
:33:35. > :33:39.see what we do, then it is relatively easy to sell it. You have
:33:40. > :33:42.to get them here first. 17 new University Technical College s
:33:43. > :33:47.opened this September. That means there are 30 across England and it
:33:48. > :33:52.is expected 57 will be opened by 2016. Parents and pupils already
:33:53. > :33:56.have to pick their way through a long and at times confusing list of
:33:57. > :34:00.choice, University Technical College s are the latest kids on the
:34:01. > :34:05.education block, there is other free schools and state schools of course.
:34:06. > :34:11.Then there is academy, faith schools and grammar school, plus special
:34:12. > :34:15.school, Community Schools, and foundation schools, not forgetting
:34:16. > :34:19.private school, city technical colleges and studio schools For me
:34:20. > :34:25.there were lots I could have gone to, since I wanted to become a civil
:34:26. > :34:31.engineer this had the courses most schools wouldn't do. I wanted to
:34:32. > :34:35.study architecture in my future, because the school does BTEC
:34:36. > :34:39.construction, not many do that so I decided to come here. Keeping a
:34:40. > :34:46.close eye on University Technical College is the Tory peer Lord Lucas,
:34:47. > :34:51.the editor of the Good Schools Guide be so few UCTs how much diversity
:34:52. > :34:58.are they providing Not much. There ought to be 1,000 of them. Give them
:34:59. > :35:01.time. It is right to build them slowly otherwise you make too many
:35:02. > :35:06.mistakes, if you start with a find and how they work and build that
:35:07. > :35:10.good practise, it is easier to make something that works well. The
:35:11. > :35:15.principle at royal Greenwich says ambitions here are high, with two of
:35:16. > :35:18.its pupils applying to Cambridge. But University Technical College s
:35:19. > :35:22.still have some way to go, before they become a mainstream choice for
:35:23. > :35:25.parents and pupils. And we're joined now by Fiona Miller
:35:26. > :35:28.of Comprehensive Future and Lord Baker, whose University Technical
:35:29. > :35:40.Colleges were featured in that 30 of them in England at the moment,
:35:41. > :35:43.but given we have such a shortage of engineers, and scientist, wouldn't
:35:44. > :35:50.we be better teaching those subjects, in all schools? Well, all
:35:51. > :35:55.schools do take science for example, but to do the engineering you, the
:35:56. > :35:59.equipment for that college is ?1 million. No school could that. This
:36:00. > :36:03.that school for two days a week the youngsters are making and designing
:36:04. > :36:09.things with their hands on a long Walker working day from 8.30 to
:36:10. > :36:15.five. The other time is spent doing GCSE subjects, we should have had
:36:16. > :36:19.them 50 years ago. We had them in 1945 and they were closed by
:36:20. > :36:24.snobbery, in the last four years we Magged to get it off the grouped. To
:36:25. > :36:30.create approvals for 57 new schools in four years, is a record. Do you
:36:31. > :36:33.agree there is a real demand for specialist schools like this,
:36:34. > :36:37.because we have such an acute shortage of those skill, and they
:36:38. > :36:42.are not taught in the same way in comprehensive state schools? I think
:36:43. > :36:47.there is a very urgent need to address the fact that vocational
:36:48. > :36:51.high quality skills training has been the Cinderella of the education
:36:52. > :36:57.system for too long. Putting them into separate institution, I am not
:36:58. > :37:02.convince. Why? How do you know they will be in the areas where you need
:37:03. > :37:06.them? How can you put a school into that where there is a shortage of
:37:07. > :37:10.places and you take pupils ousmt my concern about this whole situation
:37:11. > :37:14.we are this is we have so many different types of schools set up,
:37:15. > :37:18.governs in different way, managed in different ways. It is part of a
:37:19. > :37:23.whole to meet the need there is. We place them where there is a need.
:37:24. > :37:27.Local ploughiers come to us, in Scarborough for example, or right
:37:28. > :37:32.over the country, in Leeds, man chest e Liverpool and in the
:37:33. > :37:38.south-west, in Plymouth and a town like Newton Abbot. They say we can't
:37:39. > :37:46.employ y youngster, they are not employable. Our record... Not by the
:37:47. > :37:49.choice of a child who might want to do engineering? So therefore it is
:37:50. > :37:53.driven by the demands of the economy, I agree with you, but that
:37:54. > :37:57.is the biggest problem facing the country, the skills mismatch. That
:37:58. > :38:04.is a massive shortage of skills. The English education system has failed.
:38:05. > :38:11.It is a waste of talent... But it is a disgrace. Go for 1,000 University
:38:12. > :38:17.Technical College s. Or offer a broader curriculum They can't do it
:38:18. > :38:21.with the intensity we do. All I am saying there needs to be a planned a
:38:22. > :38:29.pro proven so you can offer this to pupils where ever they are. We have
:38:30. > :38:35.had the binary approach where it has been a disaster. Can I ask one thing
:38:36. > :38:41.about the standards and you can talk about what you are so pleased about.
:38:42. > :38:43.Standard are important, one can argue about the shortages and
:38:44. > :38:50.filling a need. Standards are important. There have been three
:38:51. > :38:54.inspections so far of the college, which have produced two grade three
:38:55. > :38:59.and an inadequate one. Are you disappointed? Those are the first
:39:00. > :39:03.round. I am disappointed. What we found, what that found is, we found
:39:04. > :39:08.a huge improvement in maths, they deal with numbers all the time. From
:39:09. > :39:14.what? A very poor standard. They are measured when they come in, we get
:39:15. > :39:20.high results in math. We get 100% in the technical subjects, what is
:39:21. > :39:26.difficult for us is English, because the English education is very bad.
:39:27. > :39:31.Does that worry you? That is not true, because almost 80% of English
:39:32. > :39:35.schools are judged outstanding.le but I think this goes to the heart
:39:36. > :39:41.of the point your film referred to about the different types of
:39:42. > :39:45.schools, who holds them to can't, I don't know, but I think they are
:39:46. > :39:50.contracted to Government... I want to move on. The record we are, which
:39:51. > :39:55.many don't have is when we have levers at 16 or 18, no-one is so far
:39:56. > :40:00.joined the ranks of the unemployed. There has been no... This is all our
:40:01. > :40:04.school, all our schools that have had levers so far. The other local
:40:05. > :40:07.schools in Greenwich can't say that. The other schools across the country
:40:08. > :40:12.can't say that. One of the things you have accepted that standards are
:40:13. > :40:15.improving in state schools, I put it to you it is improveling because
:40:16. > :40:19.there is more competition in the say it sec store, there is a wider
:40:20. > :40:23.choice, particularly in urban areas and that has pushed up standards in
:40:24. > :40:29.all of those schools but particularly in what one would call
:40:30. > :40:33.the local comprehensive. There is more accountability, it has helped
:40:34. > :40:37.to raise standards, Ofsted, the performance tables no doubt about
:40:38. > :40:43.it. And other schools. Sp Teaching has got better, that is what we
:40:44. > :40:47.need. Why has it got better? Under Governments, they have put emphasis.
:40:48. > :40:52.Choice, choice. Choice has been increased on a massive scale. The
:40:53. > :40:57.emphasis has been put on recruiting good people into teaching, the
:40:58. > :41:01.quality of leadership, I have been a school governor for 20 year, is
:41:02. > :41:05.higher than when my children first started school. It's a combination
:41:06. > :41:11.of lots of different factor, you can't leave to it the market on its
:41:12. > :41:14.own. One final pointor, go back Scotland, one of the things people
:41:15. > :41:17.in Scotland look at what goes on in England and the drift to
:41:18. > :41:22.privatisation which is what I fear... That is a different subject.
:41:23. > :41:27.. Are you calling for the dismantling of schools that are, not
:41:28. > :41:32.all of them but some faith schools and many of the academies, no, so
:41:33. > :41:36.what you are saying... Particularly on behalf of parents you have
:41:37. > :41:42.different schools with different admissions criteria. If you think
:41:43. > :41:47.that the English education is doing so well, why are there are 750,000
:41:48. > :41:52.young people, boys and girls who are unemployed at this moment in time
:41:53. > :41:57.who have gone through 11 years of free education. That is a scandal.
:41:58. > :42:03.It needs to improve. But that doesn't mean it isn't improving.
:42:04. > :42:12.750,000! You should be representing your Government. 50,000... It is a
:42:13. > :42:15.disgrace. UTCs are doing something about it. Final word there.
:42:16. > :42:17.Is there such a thing as "over-saving"?
:42:18. > :42:20.Yes, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which has
:42:21. > :42:23.released new research today, carried out in England, saying that many
:42:24. > :42:26.couples born in the 1940s have more money than they need to maintain
:42:27. > :42:29.IFS Director Paul Johnson is in our Westminster studio and can
:42:30. > :42:43.What do you mean about oversaving? What we have done is try and look at
:42:44. > :42:46.how much money people need in retirement, in order to be as
:42:47. > :42:51.well-off as they were on average over their working lives, what, what
:42:52. > :42:55.we find a lot of people, possibly by accident have ended up with more
:42:56. > :43:00.money than they need to maintain that, they may not see it as
:43:01. > :43:03.oversaving. They want want a better standard of living than they
:43:04. > :43:08.previously had. It means they could have saved is less an been better
:43:09. > :43:13.off while they were working. Do you think that the Government has
:43:14. > :43:16.prioritised the needs of the older generation, policy wise, over those
:43:17. > :43:23.of the younger generation? If you do look at what the Government has done
:43:24. > :43:27.over the last four year, they have protected pensioner benefits, and
:43:28. > :43:31.they have not protected benefits for younger people, tax rises have
:43:32. > :43:36.largely hit people of younger ages, at a time when pensioner incomes
:43:37. > :43:41.have nor the first time gone up to the average and a bit above it for
:43:42. > :43:48.those below pension age, so there has been some protection of
:43:49. > :43:50.pensioners, yes. It is strange to shear someone like yourself saying
:43:51. > :43:55.pensioners have too much money. Does it matter? Good for them if they do.
:43:56. > :43:59.What difference does it make? There is two things, first we should
:44:00. > :44:03.celebrate what has been amazing change over the last three decades,
:44:04. > :44:07.back in 1980, pensioners were very very much poorer than the rest of
:44:08. > :44:11.the population, if you were old, there was a good chance you would be
:44:12. > :44:15.poor, pensioner incomes are less than that of everyone else. It is a
:44:16. > :44:20.triumph of social policy in many respects, in terms of whether it
:44:21. > :44:25.matters, there is potentially an intergenerational problem here. One
:44:26. > :44:30.reasons pensioner are well-off they got generous state pension, some of
:44:31. > :44:34.them, generous occupational pensions, some of them. They have
:44:35. > :44:38.done well in the housing market, some of them. The next generation
:44:39. > :44:40.will do less well in those areas. Here to discuss are Cari Rosen,
:44:41. > :44:53.editor of the website Gransnet and Angus Hanton, co-founder of
:44:54. > :44:58.the Intergenerational Foundation. We have just heard, pensioners, over
:44:59. > :45:02.saving, they are well off, they have been, to some extent, prioritised by
:45:03. > :45:06.government policy, do you agree? Not necessarily. I think people are
:45:07. > :45:14.grabbing the headline and running with it, but I think we have to
:45:15. > :45:18.realise that the study is 1600 couples, and there are 12 million
:45:19. > :45:23.pensioners in this country, so it is not representative of all of them,
:45:24. > :45:28.by any means. But the baby boomers generation have had it relatively
:45:29. > :45:31.easy, haven't they, in terms of many of them will perhaps have made a
:45:32. > :45:35.reasonable amount of money on their property, they will have had
:45:36. > :45:38.pensions either through their work or private pensions that have done
:45:39. > :45:42.better than you would get now, despite changes coming. They have
:45:43. > :45:49.not have to pay for university Jewish in and so on - do you agree
:45:50. > :45:55.with that? Absolutely. -- University tuition. If you look at the tail end
:45:56. > :46:00.of the baby boomers, like myself, it is a very different thing
:46:01. > :46:05.altogether. So, yes, many people have done well, but it is the same
:46:06. > :46:08.generation who are the first generation who, in retirement, for
:46:09. > :46:13.whom it will be the norm to be living alone, Chas a massive
:46:14. > :46:27.financial impact. Living alone, and living a lot longer, so they will
:46:28. > :46:31.need more money for retirement. These people have got the windfall
:46:32. > :46:35.benefit of their particular circumstances, the benefit of house
:46:36. > :46:38.price increases, which is a straight transfer from the younger generation
:46:39. > :46:42.to the older generation, whether they went all whether they give away
:46:43. > :46:46.a large part of their life's earnings in getting a mortgage and
:46:47. > :46:49.paying for that. So, what has happened is that the younger
:46:50. > :46:54.generation are being asked to pay twice, to save for their own
:46:55. > :46:58.generation, but also to pay for the older generation's pensions because
:46:59. > :47:03.so many of these pensions are underfunded, and it is just not
:47:04. > :47:07.fair. It is not fair, particularly after the recession we have just
:47:08. > :47:12.had? And that is not something that anyone on our site would dispute.
:47:13. > :47:17.But these people we are talking about, they have worked hard, paid
:47:18. > :47:19.taxes and paid national insurance, and now, in
:47:20. > :47:23.taxes and paid national insurance, looking after their grandchildren,
:47:24. > :47:27.so their children can go back to work, so they are still contributing
:47:28. > :47:32.to society. People are forgetting, ?7 billion a year in child care is
:47:33. > :47:36.saved by an army of grandparents. You are getting that the wrong way
:47:37. > :47:39.around. It is great that they are finding this private solution to
:47:40. > :47:44.childcare, but it is because of a public failure, because both people
:47:45. > :47:48.in the couple are having to work very hard. A lot of them would
:47:49. > :47:53.prefer to be with their children. Absolutely. Don't you think policy
:47:54. > :47:56.now should be redirected towards the younger generation, if the figures
:47:57. > :48:01.speak for themselves, many people now in retirement have got enough
:48:02. > :48:05.money for it? The evidence is that nobody wants to see their children
:48:06. > :48:10.and grandchildren suffer at the expense of their own well-being. So,
:48:11. > :48:15.should policy be redirect it? It is not as simple as that. We are an
:48:16. > :48:20.ageing population, with more and more people claiming pension. If we
:48:21. > :48:24.drive them all to Pena rhe, then the state would be in even more hot
:48:25. > :48:29.water. The whole problem is the way the tax burden falls, which falls
:48:30. > :48:33.very heavily on earned income. Young people going into work are paying
:48:34. > :48:39.income tax, national insurance, student debt in many cases, almost
:48:40. > :48:42.50% tax. By contrast, the older generation, whose wealth is in
:48:43. > :48:47.pensions and housing, pay very little tax on rental income or on
:48:48. > :48:52.pensions, for example. The fundamental thing we need to do is
:48:53. > :48:54.we need to review all government policies, in terms of
:48:55. > :48:59.intergenerational fairness. Do you accept that the Government has
:49:00. > :49:03.shielded to some extent the older generation, cynics would say because
:49:04. > :49:10.a lot of older people vote Tory? Well, basically, I agree with him.
:49:11. > :49:13.And I think as Mr Johnson was saying earlier, there has been quite a big
:49:14. > :49:19.shift to the elderly over the last 15 years, and the present generation
:49:20. > :49:23.of pensioners will not be replicated in the future. The future is much
:49:24. > :49:29.smaller pensions. This is why these baby boomers are the lucky
:49:30. > :49:34.generation. If you get the Mail on Sunday, it has 12 - 15 pages
:49:35. > :49:39.advertising cruises. The people who go on cruises are mainly older
:49:40. > :49:43.middle age people. Young families with several children to not go on
:49:44. > :49:47.cruises. What about universal benefits, you agree with the Lib
:49:48. > :49:52.Dems, who say they would take the free TV licence away? Yes, it is
:49:53. > :49:58.absurd that I should get a free TV licence. But means testing benefits,
:49:59. > :50:03.it has been shown, costs more than the amount you would save. And there
:50:04. > :50:07.are many people who rely on those benefits who would proud to claim.
:50:08. > :50:13.That was the argument used on prescription charges, when they were
:50:14. > :50:18.introduced. The exception was given for the elderly, it can be done.
:50:19. > :50:23.Would you say that if you were still an elected politician with a
:50:24. > :50:28.constituency? I would, but you are quite right, this is a headache for
:50:29. > :50:34.any politician to say this. Lots of Tory MPs have said they would agree
:50:35. > :50:38.with that after the election. Yes, and it is good to look at universal
:50:39. > :50:42.benefits, which are an fair on the younger generation at a moment, but
:50:43. > :50:47.that is a relatively small amount of money, compared to the pensions
:50:48. > :50:52.issue. It is an important signal. But I wonder if you are right that
:50:53. > :50:57.they are a lucky generation, or haven't we, and I am a baby boomer
:50:58. > :51:02.as well, taken from the young? Is there not a change that we are not
:51:03. > :51:06.just being lucky, but we are making our own luck by taking from the
:51:07. > :51:13.younger generation? I will let that question hang.
:51:14. > :51:17.Directly elected police and crime commissioners were supposed to make
:51:18. > :51:19.the police accountable, but the Police Commissioner for South
:51:20. > :51:24.Yorkshire does not want to be hold accountable for what happened under
:51:25. > :51:26.his watch in Rotherham. Before becoming Police Commissioner, Shaun
:51:27. > :51:30.Wright was the councillor with responsibility for children's
:51:31. > :51:34.services at a time when hundreds of girls in the town were being
:51:35. > :51:37.sexually abused. This afternoon, he appears before the Home Affairs
:51:38. > :51:43.Select Committee to explain why he will not resign. Here is defending
:51:44. > :51:47.himself last month. I do not think any of this was my direct fault.
:51:48. > :51:51.What I take is collective responsibility. When you are a
:51:52. > :51:55.member of a 63 person council, you take collective responsibility. And
:51:56. > :52:00.I took my responsibility as part of that organisation. And I have moved
:52:01. > :52:03.on and taken lessons from that experience and transferred those
:52:04. > :52:07.into another organisation, South Yorkshire Police, and I am happy to
:52:08. > :52:10.stand proudly on my record over the last couple of years as a police and
:52:11. > :52:16.crime commissioner for South Yorkshire. I am joined now by former
:52:17. > :52:20.Home Office Minister Damian Green and the Labour MP John Mann, and
:52:21. > :52:26.they are both outside Parliament. First of all, John Mann, should
:52:27. > :52:30.Shaun Wright resign? Yes, today. He should have resigned before.
:52:31. > :52:37.Frankly, this demonstrates how unsuited he is to the job. Damian
:52:38. > :52:42.Green? I completely agree. He is not doing himself any good, not doing
:52:43. > :52:46.the post any good, and most of all, not doing the people in South
:52:47. > :52:49.Yorkshire any good. If he was head of children's services at a time
:52:50. > :52:53.when these disgraceful things were happening, then he clearly has more
:52:54. > :52:57.than collective responsibility, he has some individual responsibility.
:52:58. > :53:04.You have both said categorically that he should resign, but can he be
:53:05. > :53:08.sacked? No, because, and this is an important point of principle, he is
:53:09. > :53:15.an elected politician, just like John and me. Just as if he or I say
:53:16. > :53:20.something unpopular, it is not for a Minister of the government to say,
:53:21. > :53:26.no, you can no longer be an MP. If you are elected in a constituency,
:53:27. > :53:32.then you should be chucked out by that constituency, unless you commit
:53:33. > :53:37.a serious crime. He has done more perhaps than just done something
:53:38. > :53:42.people do not like, over Cameron, Theresa May, many people have called
:53:43. > :53:46.for him to resign, Sheffield council has passed a vote of no confidence
:53:47. > :53:51.in him - should he not be sacked? As I say, because he is elected, the
:53:52. > :53:54.only way you can be sacked if you have committed a criminal offence,
:53:55. > :54:00.and that applies to elected people across the board. He should go. The
:54:01. > :54:03.fact that all of the party leaders, I do not know anyone apart from
:54:04. > :54:09.Shaun Wright who says Shaun Wright should survive. Frankly, I hope he
:54:10. > :54:15.has a tough time in front of the select committee this afternoon. He
:54:16. > :54:22.may well do. John Mann, that is democracy, isn't it, we have to wait
:54:23. > :54:25.until there is another election? Well, it is not good democracy when
:54:26. > :54:29.you have politicians running the local police, and they cannot be
:54:30. > :54:32.recalled. If he does not resign, I would call on the Home Secretary to
:54:33. > :54:37.take over South Yorkshire Police and force him out that way. It is
:54:38. > :54:40.unsustainable for him to remain. He is a barrier to that police force
:54:41. > :54:43.doing what they should have done many years ago, which is to get
:54:44. > :54:51.their acts together and get these sex offenders arrested and put in
:54:52. > :54:54.front of the courts. Even if he does resign, is it not likely that any
:54:55. > :54:58.kind of by-election would seek a turnout similar to the one held in
:54:59. > :55:03.the West Midlands in the summer, with just a 10% turnout, so again,
:55:04. > :55:08.no mandate? No, I think the government ought to get rid of these
:55:09. > :55:11.ridiculous positions, and Shaun Wright demonstrates why they were
:55:12. > :55:16.always an absurdity. They will not do that. It needs legislation to get
:55:17. > :55:22.rid of them. In the meanwhile, he should be going anyway, he should do
:55:23. > :55:27.the decent thing. Damian Green, it is a ridiculous idea in the first
:55:28. > :55:32.place, they should go anyway? Well, it is not a ridiculous idea, because
:55:33. > :55:35.you always need somebody to hold the police accountable. It used to be
:55:36. > :55:40.police authorities, who were completely invisible. Nobody knew
:55:41. > :55:46.who was holding the police to account, and very often nobody was.
:55:47. > :55:49.The fact that you have got one man behaving very badly, as he is in
:55:50. > :55:53.this instance, does not alter the basic point which is that having a
:55:54. > :55:57.public figure who is democratically accountable, subject to public
:55:58. > :56:02.Russia, is a better and more accountable system of police
:56:03. > :56:04.governance than we had before. It is not for the police and crime
:56:05. > :56:08.commissioner to decide how South Yorkshire Police deals with child
:56:09. > :56:18.abuse cases, that is for the chief constable. John Mann, therefore, is
:56:19. > :56:24.it not the position itself, it is the paucity of talent within, in
:56:25. > :56:27.this case, Labour? He is clearly unsuited to the job. But these
:56:28. > :56:32.positions, who would want them? That is part of the problem. Having
:56:33. > :56:36.elected politicians trying to run the police force is an absurdity,
:56:37. > :56:43.Shaun Wright demonstrates that. He was hardly known by anybody. But he
:56:44. > :56:50.was selected by Labour? Where John is wrong, he said, who would want to
:56:51. > :56:54.do this? But quite a lot of ex-Labour ministers, including Tony
:56:55. > :57:02.Lloyd, good, serious people on the Labour side have become a lease and
:57:03. > :57:06.crime commissioners. There will always be some ex-politician wanting
:57:07. > :57:11.to grab the job, we all know that. That does not mean it is a good
:57:12. > :57:17.idea. Damian Green, you obviously still believe that they are worth
:57:18. > :57:21.continuing, even though there is so little support for them? Yes,
:57:22. > :57:29.because I have seen, I suspect more than John, the good work which is
:57:30. > :57:31.being done by PCCs from all political backgrounds, particularly
:57:32. > :57:39.in terms of violence against women and children. They have brought much
:57:40. > :57:49.more openness into the way police forces can connect with their local
:57:50. > :57:58.community. Do you agree? I was never a great fan of the Police
:57:59. > :58:02.Commissioners, but police services are also responsible to the Home
:58:03. > :58:06.Secretary, who has very considerable powers. But he could not use them in
:58:07. > :58:11.this particular case. There should have been some provision in the
:58:12. > :58:13.legislation for the Home Secretary to intervene in special
:58:14. > :58:19.circumstances, that would have been the best thing, but it was never
:58:20. > :58:21.thought of. But this man is totally shameless, his reputation is
:58:22. > :58:26.ruined, he will be ineffective in his job, and he should behave
:58:27. > :58:30.sensibly, but he is not going to do that. We have just got a few seconds
:58:31. > :58:35.- what question should Shaun Wright be asked? What did he know, when did
:58:36. > :58:42.he know it and what did he do about it and why isn't he resigning now?
:58:43. > :58:47.Thank you all of our guests, and particularly to our guest of the
:58:48. > :58:52.day, Ken Baker. One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One. I will be
:58:53. > :58:53.back tomorrow with Andrew with by ministers questions, although not
:58:54. > :59:05.with David Cameron and Ed Miliband. or to stay part of
:59:06. > :59:11.the United Kingdom? The BBC's online coverage will keep
:59:12. > :59:16.you up to date with every development with live streaming
:59:17. > :59:21.of the key moments, expert opinions