:00:17. > :00:54.Supporters of the Union celebrate as Scotland votes No to independence
:00:55. > :01:04.Alex Salmond concedes defeat in the campaign, but says the result
:01:05. > :01:06.shows huge demand for change and calls for the swift devolution
:01:07. > :01:12.David Cameron promises to deliver on his commitment to more Scottish
:01:13. > :01:18.But he also says it's time for English devolution,
:01:19. > :01:20.including an end to Scottish MPs voting on purely English matters
:01:21. > :01:31.Ed Miliband could lack a majority for his English agenda
:01:32. > :01:38.if he couldn't count on his Scottish votes.
:01:39. > :01:42.In the end, the NOs had it and by a bigger 10-point majority than
:01:43. > :01:47.Over the next hour, we'll bring you all the latest
:01:48. > :01:50.on last night's historic vote and the big constitutional changes for
:01:51. > :01:56.the whole of the UK which are now promised by all the main parties.
:01:57. > :01:58.It was a solid margin of victory for the No campaign in Scotland,
:01:59. > :02:05.one that looks like settling the matter for the foreseeable future.
:02:06. > :02:07.55% voted in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK,
:02:08. > :02:12.It was the highest ever turn-out in a British election,
:02:13. > :02:17.with 85% of those who'd registered to vote casting their ballot.
:02:18. > :02:19.That meant that just over two million voters said No -
:02:20. > :02:26.Speaking shortly after 6am this morning, the First Minister
:02:27. > :02:28.of Scotland, Alex Salmond, conceded defeat, but demanded that party
:02:29. > :02:31.leaders in Westminster make good on their last-minute campaign promise
:02:32. > :02:49.Scotland has, by majority, decided not, at this stage, to become an
:02:50. > :02:54.independent country. I accept that verdict of the people and I call on
:02:55. > :02:56.all of Scotland to follow suit and access the democratic verdict of the
:02:57. > :03:16.people of Scotland. - accept. All of us in this campaign will say
:03:17. > :03:20.that 55%, that 1.6 million votes is a substantial vote for Scottish
:03:21. > :03:21.independence and the future of this country.
:03:22. > :03:24.Less than an hour later, at just after 7am, David Cameron spoke to
:03:25. > :03:39.The people of Scotland have spoken and it is a clear result. They've
:03:40. > :03:45.kept our country of four nations together. Like millions of other
:03:46. > :03:49.people, I am delighted. As I said during the campaign, it would have
:03:50. > :03:54.broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end and I know
:03:55. > :03:59.that sentiment was shared by people not just across our country, bottles
:04:00. > :04:02.around the world because of what we've achieved together in the past
:04:03. > :04:04.and what we can do together in the future.
:04:05. > :04:06.But he didn't just repeat his promise to Scotland.
:04:07. > :04:08.Under pressure from his backbenchers and even
:04:09. > :04:16.a few cabinet ministers, he had a commitment to the rest of the UK.
:04:17. > :04:23.The crucial part missing from this national discussing - discussion is
:04:24. > :04:26.England. We've heard the voice of Scotland and now the millions of
:04:27. > :04:35.voices of England must also be heard. The question of English votes
:04:36. > :04:39.for English laws, the so-called West Lothian question, requires a
:04:40. > :04:44.decisive answer. Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish
:04:45. > :04:49.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so to England,
:04:50. > :04:54.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on
:04:55. > :05:01.these issues. All this must take in place in tandem with and at the same
:05:02. > :05:05.pace as the Scotland. The Prime Minister adding in English
:05:06. > :05:08.devolution and maybe more devolution for Wales and Northern Ireland, on
:05:09. > :05:15.top of his promise for more devolution to Scotland. We will be
:05:16. > :05:18.joined shortly by Kevin McCann of the observer, who backed the yes
:05:19. > :05:24.campaign. We are waiting for him in class guy. - Glasgow.
:05:25. > :05:26.And with me here in London are Anne McElvoy of the Economist,
:05:27. > :05:30.Let's talk now to the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon,
:05:31. > :05:40.Last night was a very good result for the no campaign. If we turn our
:05:41. > :05:44.minds back to what a lot of us were thinking at the outset when this
:05:45. > :05:49.referendum was announced, we thought the result would perhaps be more
:05:50. > :05:54.obviously a no. What has happened is the authority Mr Cameron has had has
:05:55. > :05:58.been eaten away and now he has to regain that. He has the ten point no
:05:59. > :06:02.vote under his belt, but if it had gone the other way, we would be
:06:03. > :06:07.talking about whether he would survive. Is it going to be the
:06:08. > :06:14.disunited States of Britain? How does he get around that? Ten points
:06:15. > :06:19.isn't bad as a lead. It is a good lead. If I was advising Scots, I
:06:20. > :06:24.would say listen carefully to what Alex Salmond said, he said at this
:06:25. > :06:27.stage. Would you really not take no for an answer? That the Scottish
:06:28. > :06:33.National question. I don't think Scotland needs a Scottish National
:06:34. > :06:36.party any more, it needs a realignment of its own politics so
:06:37. > :06:41.it can get on with the business of discussing its own top one of the
:06:42. > :06:45.striking aspects of the campaign was a lot of Scots didn't know what the
:06:46. > :06:50.Scottish Government was responsible for. Now it will get more powers so
:06:51. > :07:01.there's an argument for realising - realigning in Scotland. There was a
:07:02. > :07:04.panic and we saw that panic. There was a sense in which constant nation
:07:05. > :07:12.- constitutional reform was privatised to Gordon Brown.
:07:13. > :07:16.Outsourcing. I like the word privatised and Gordon Brown being
:07:17. > :07:22.together. He's now living with that, he has to do something that. The
:07:23. > :07:26.backbenches and some of his cabinet ministers are furious at the lack of
:07:27. > :07:31.consultation so they are saying, you can go ahead and do this, but we
:07:32. > :07:35.want English devolution as well. We are back to the Michael Howard
:07:36. > :07:40.proposal. English votes, England needs more of a say. David Cameron
:07:41. > :07:44.back then was supportive of that view, and then decided to go for an
:07:45. > :07:50.all in approach, turned himself into that kind of Tory leader. If he
:07:51. > :07:54.turned himself back, he has to take this seriously. Devo-max being
:07:55. > :08:03.thrown onto the table. It's not devo-max. Devo-max applies to
:08:04. > :08:08.basically everything is devolved, including all taxation powers except
:08:09. > :08:12.foreign policy, defence and make - macroeconomic policy. Devo-max would
:08:13. > :08:21.involve Scots collecting all their tax. This is TiVo plus.
:08:22. > :08:30.- devo-plus. This is where the immediate pressure is going to come
:08:31. > :08:39.from. Why did he not consult his party? They didn't expect this.
:08:40. > :08:43.Would it have been better to put that devo thing on the agenda
:08:44. > :08:48.earlier so everyone could have a say? The sense that his party didn't
:08:49. > :08:52.have a say was what I was driving at. Although they have a fair idea
:08:53. > :08:56.what they want to do in Scotland, I would suggest they are at base camp
:08:57. > :09:00.with what they want to do in England and there is no agreement between
:09:01. > :09:06.the parties. The problem is every attempt the governments have had to
:09:07. > :09:11.make the English accept greater devolution has been defeated by
:09:12. > :09:17.English people. Most viewers of this programme do not even know that in
:09:18. > :09:23.2004 there was a referendum in which 900,000 people voted by 78% to 22%
:09:24. > :09:27.not to have a regional assembly. When they put the question of having
:09:28. > :09:33.an elected mayors to the major cities in the autumn of 2012, eight
:09:34. > :09:37.out of the nine asked said no. Only Bristol said yes and Doncaster said
:09:38. > :09:42.they wanted to retain one. The assumption made that the English are
:09:43. > :09:46.gagging for particular forms of devolution is not true. Talk to
:09:47. > :09:53.people about constitutional reform in this country, as I found out, is
:09:54. > :09:57.really tricky. But what has happened in England, and the polls show
:09:58. > :10:02.this, is that with Scottish devolution and the Scottish argument
:10:03. > :10:06.being on our TV sets every night, the English are starting to say, if
:10:07. > :10:10.it's good enough to Scotland, we'll have some of that. Don't divide us
:10:11. > :10:14.by region, don't think that decentralisation to big cities is
:10:15. > :10:20.the same as devolution, we want to vote on our schools in the same way
:10:21. > :10:24.Scotland does. David is right, every time they've been offered Ham and
:10:25. > :10:27.eggs or double ham and eggs, everybody said they didn't want ham
:10:28. > :10:33.and dates. That's different to a situation where Scotland has been
:10:34. > :10:39.thrown extra powers in it attempt to keep it in the union, which was
:10:40. > :10:44.successful. The mood around it is different now to what David
:10:45. > :10:47.describes. Things were often put to people when they weren't prepared.
:10:48. > :10:52.Psychologically or emotionally. It's very different and the degree of
:10:53. > :10:55.engagement in England, listening to people in supermarkets, they are
:10:56. > :11:00.very engaged now with the Scottish question in a way they weren't. Even
:11:01. > :11:06.if that's true, there's a problem. Morning the Prime Minister hitched
:11:07. > :11:10.English devolution to Scottish devolution. The two had to go in
:11:11. > :11:16.tandem. I don't see how they can do that. That's a real problem. They
:11:17. > :11:21.got some kind of agreement about what should go to Scotland in the
:11:22. > :11:26.event of a no vote. They should deliver on that before we start
:11:27. > :11:30.messing around with questions of devolution in England. The question
:11:31. > :11:34.of an English parliament is so fraught with difficulties for the
:11:35. > :11:37.simple reason that if you have a First Minister of England, what's
:11:38. > :11:43.the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom for? You do in Germany and a
:11:44. > :11:50.lot of federal countries. You have very powerful first ministers.
:11:51. > :11:55.England is so much bigger than any of the other components put
:11:56. > :11:59.together. The only equivalent of having a lender system in England
:12:00. > :12:03.would be divide England into equal parts, London and the Midlands and
:12:04. > :12:09.so on. And there's no appetite for that at the moment. I would support
:12:10. > :12:14.it, but almost everything I support, people don't like. We will talk a
:12:15. > :12:19.lot about this. Let's go live to Glasgow when Norman Smith is. What's
:12:20. > :12:27.it like the morning after the night before? It's striking. Glass go is
:12:28. > :12:32.one of the few places that voted yes and people are having to come to
:12:33. > :12:36.terms with last night's decision. Although we heard a lot about the
:12:37. > :12:42.motivation and the commitment and the pattern - Passion of the yes
:12:43. > :12:47.side, maybe what we underestimated wants this ear - sheer determination
:12:48. > :12:51.of the quiet no majority to come out and vote. These are people who buy
:12:52. > :12:57.and large weren't doing interviews, they weren't doing vox pops in the
:12:58. > :13:01.street, but in the privacy of the polling booth, they let their true
:13:02. > :13:06.feelings show. The second thing is looking at the Labour vote, there
:13:07. > :13:11.seemed a moment when Alex Salmond was just taking huge chunks out of
:13:12. > :13:14.it. What we saw last night is when you look at Clackmannanshire,
:13:15. > :13:19.Renfrewshire, those kinds of places, the Labour vote held up much
:13:20. > :13:24.better than even some of the Labour people thought. Why? I suspect in
:13:25. > :13:28.part it was because of Gordon Brown's intervention. He galvanised
:13:29. > :13:34.the Labour vote where previously it seemed flat and dispirited. I do
:13:35. > :13:38.think his intervention was almost in a motion or kick-start for the
:13:39. > :13:45.Labour vote which in the end, by and large, hung in there on the side of
:13:46. > :13:50.the no team. The silent majority and a more solid Labour vote explain why
:13:51. > :13:56.at the end of the day the no side have recorded a fairly significant
:13:57. > :14:01.victory. Norman, are we sure that the Nationalists will accept this is
:14:02. > :14:06.over for the foreseeable future? Perhaps for a generation? Will they
:14:07. > :14:12.look at bringing it back? Is Alex Salmond's position safe or is Nicola
:14:13. > :14:17.Sturgeon beginning to measure the curtains? My sense of the latter
:14:18. > :14:22.part is that Alex Salmond's position is certainly safe for now. If he had
:14:23. > :14:26.been pushed down to 40% or below, I think it would be a very, very
:14:27. > :14:31.different situation. He can now point to pushing up the
:14:32. > :14:38.pro-independence phot to 45%. Bear in mind a few months ago it was down
:14:39. > :14:42.at 25%. He's pushed it right out and he will get more powers from
:14:43. > :14:46.Westminster so he can claim that is a significant achievement. Is
:14:47. > :14:51.independence over for a generation? I would be cautious about that. When
:14:52. > :14:56.Alex Salmond has said it's over for a generation, he always that is my
:14:57. > :15:01.view. He won't be around for a generation. There will be a new
:15:02. > :15:06.generation of Scottish Nationalists. Will they sit on their hands
:15:07. > :15:18.forever? That's more questionable. In the interim, will the SNP
:15:19. > :15:20.strategy not be, given where they did do well, what you would call
:15:21. > :15:23.Labour areas, Dundee, Glasgow and so on, will they not now attempt to
:15:24. > :15:29.replace Scottish Labour as the country's centre-left party? One of
:15:30. > :15:32.the interesting things about this whole referendum, it is basically
:15:33. > :15:36.round one between the Scottish National party and the Labour Party,
:15:37. > :15:41.who are engaged in pretty much a fight to the death to be the left of
:15:42. > :15:45.centre party in Scotland, and we will see round two in the 2016
:15:46. > :15:50.general election, and who knows, maybe we will see Gordon Brown
:15:51. > :15:57.against Nicola Sturgeon. But it is a fight to the death between the two
:15:58. > :16:01.stipes -- Nicolas Sturgeon. The question is whether the Labour Party
:16:02. > :16:05.managers to reenergise itself, rebuild itself, because it has been
:16:06. > :16:10.profoundly damaged by the perception of being in hock to the London
:16:11. > :16:20.party, but not for the understanding the aspirations and sentiment, and
:16:21. > :16:26.even nationalism. There is a bit task for the Labour Party to try to
:16:27. > :16:34.counterpart the SNP's, nation of centre politics. One of the threads
:16:35. > :16:37.Scottish Labour may face is that the Nationalists will say all right, you
:16:38. > :16:42.have voted no, but you can't trust these people in Westminster. They
:16:43. > :16:47.may not deliver this home rule, as Gordon Brown called it. The surest
:16:48. > :16:53.way of doing it is to send us to Westminster. We will keep their feet
:16:54. > :16:58.to the fire. Obviously, the SNP, now independents has gone, has to keep
:16:59. > :17:02.itself by continuously suggesting there is a tension between Scotland
:17:03. > :17:06.and Westminster, but there are dangers for Alex Salmond and the SNP
:17:07. > :17:10.in doing that, because one of the things that polls show, in
:17:11. > :17:14.attitudinal terms, is Scotland is put in much the same as everybody
:17:15. > :17:20.else in the United Kingdom, which leaves an immense space in the
:17:21. > :17:23.centre right, which the SNP has imposed a Nationalist blanket over
:17:24. > :17:27.the large sections of the centre-left and centre-right. The
:17:28. > :17:31.question or not is whether Scotland retains that. One of the hidden
:17:32. > :17:35.things in it has been the extraordinary performance of the
:17:36. > :17:45.Scots Conservatives. 95% of them wanted to stay. They got the vote. I
:17:46. > :17:50.am not completely ruling out a return of a centre-right bloc which
:17:51. > :18:01.would give the SNP some problems. There won't be a centre right swing,
:18:02. > :18:05.and that is why the Conservatives want all income taxed to go there,
:18:06. > :18:08.because they want a correlation between how much the parliament
:18:09. > :18:13.spends on how much is taxed. Then the interim, I would suggest, even
:18:14. > :18:16.though the side one, there is something of a crisis for the
:18:17. > :18:22.Scottish Labour Party. I think so, and I think the fact that Gordon
:18:23. > :18:29.Brown, and I have to say, I think his performance was absolutely
:18:30. > :18:32.instrumental in this result. I think the Scottish Labour Party looked...
:18:33. > :18:36.I no they sense only people up there, the rising generation, the Ed
:18:37. > :18:49.Miliband stars over the summer, and in fact it didn't seem to do much
:18:50. > :18:52.good at all, and it was only when Gordon came up with those jump leads
:18:53. > :18:55.he provided to the No campaign, he found the hearts and minds of the
:18:56. > :18:58.central Belt. That's when things started to change. Gordon is not a
:18:59. > :19:00.player now. What are you going to do now? Let me quickly go back to
:19:01. > :19:04.Norman, finally. Does it not tell us something about the state of the
:19:05. > :19:08.Scottish Labour Party, Norman, that the big figures on the Labour side
:19:09. > :19:13.for better together were Alistair Darling, Westminster MP, Gordon
:19:14. > :19:23.Brown, Westminster MP, Jim Murphy, Westminster MP, indeed at one Better
:19:24. > :19:30.Together meeting run by Labour, they said they would rather have Ruth
:19:31. > :19:33.Davidson fan Joanne Lamont. I take your point, but I would not
:19:34. > :19:37.underestimate the galvanising effect this result probably has on the
:19:38. > :19:41.Scottish Labour Party. They have been taking a battering for a long
:19:42. > :19:45.time, and I wonder if this will give them a chance just to draw breath
:19:46. > :19:50.and represent themselves to the Scottish people. I do also say watch
:19:51. > :19:55.Gordon Brown. I see he is making a big speech tomorrow, just listening
:19:56. > :20:02.to the language of that man, ice eyes he sees a role for himself back
:20:03. > :20:05.in -- I surmise he sees a role for himself back in front line politics
:20:06. > :20:09.in Scotland. He hasn't said as much, but the reception he has received,
:20:10. > :20:14.he has energised, he is full of it, it has a passion for Scotland. We
:20:15. > :20:19.remember him down at Westminster, a broken, cowled, shrunken figure. It
:20:20. > :20:24.is like Gordon Brown of 20 years ago here. If I had money to place, I
:20:25. > :20:28.would say Gordon Brown would seek to lead the Scottish Labour Party.
:20:29. > :20:34.Really? Have you told Jim Murphy that yet, Norman? LAUGHTER
:20:35. > :20:37.Not yet, that's a very good point! It is clear they are going to have
:20:38. > :20:42.to do something. If they face an attack from the SNP on the left,
:20:43. > :20:47.they will have to energise it. When I was out in North Lanarkshire and
:20:48. > :20:50.Hamilton, a lot of lapsed Labour voters, a lot of people who had been
:20:51. > :20:55.lifetime Labour voters, but they were voting yes. They were voting
:20:56. > :20:59.for independence because they just felt that the Labour Party did not
:21:00. > :21:04.do anything for them any more. Let's be honest, the Labour Party has been
:21:05. > :21:07.for so long the establishment up there, and in many ways not always a
:21:08. > :21:10.very attractive sort of establishment. And the other thing,
:21:11. > :21:15.which I think they struggle from, is that many, many people who vote for
:21:16. > :21:18.the Scottish National party are clearly not Nationalists. They vote
:21:19. > :21:22.for the SNP, I think, because they think the SNP will strike a much
:21:23. > :21:25.harder deal with Westminster politicians, and they want somebody
:21:26. > :21:30.who will go into the corner and fight much harder than they suspect
:21:31. > :21:34.Labour politicians, who perhaps are a bit more accommodating, because
:21:35. > :21:38.they are part of a UK wide party. So if you a Scot who wants a better
:21:39. > :21:41.deal for Scotland and more power devolved Scotland, and you want to
:21:42. > :21:44.stand up to the Westminster government, you may not be a
:21:45. > :21:49.Nationalist but you may think you know what, I think those SNP people
:21:50. > :21:54.will get me a better deal, and I suspect that probably fuels a lot of
:21:55. > :21:57.the SNP support up here. Norman, thanks for that, and for all of our
:21:58. > :22:05.interviews during this campaign, it's been a pleasure, thank you very
:22:06. > :22:10.much. Where does Labour go here? There is a danger for Labour in this
:22:11. > :22:13.that they could lose seats to the Nationalists. They have now got this
:22:14. > :22:19.question of the Tories in England putting the West Lothian question.
:22:20. > :22:24.The risk is that Lynton Crosby will unleash the anti-English attack on
:22:25. > :22:32.them. But I am not at all sure in the sort of seats where Labour are
:22:33. > :22:37.fighting the Tories, one of the biggest problem is that was obvious
:22:38. > :22:42.was when Ed Miliband went up to Scotland from England, nobody really
:22:43. > :22:47.much seemed to notice him. All right, let's leave that here for the
:22:48. > :22:51.moment. I want to go to the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, he is in
:22:52. > :22:59.Westminster. Welcome to the Daily Politics. When the Prime Minister
:23:00. > :23:03.outsourced constitutional reform to Gordon Brown, was the cabinet
:23:04. > :23:06.consulted? Look, he didn't outsource it to Gordon Brown first we have
:23:07. > :23:09.been looking at these things for a long time as you know very well,
:23:10. > :23:12.Andrew. We had the Mackay commission looking at the sorts of things,
:23:13. > :23:17.successive Cabinet commissions have been looking at this. William Hague
:23:18. > :23:19.is now to take this forward, we have the Liberal Democrats participating.
:23:20. > :23:25.Even this morning, the Scottish Nationalist party participating. The
:23:26. > :23:31.question is will Labour stepped up to the plate and join in? Gordon
:23:32. > :23:35.Brown made some specific devolution proposals and backed it up with a
:23:36. > :23:41.timetable, talking about command white papers. Was that run past the
:23:42. > :23:46.Cabinet? We have been discussing these things, as I have just told
:23:47. > :23:51.you, for a long time. Was it run past the Cabinet? It is a simple
:23:52. > :23:54.question. The simple answer is yes, we did discuss the constitutional
:23:55. > :24:02.settlement, we have been doing that for a long time. Did the full
:24:03. > :24:07.Cabinet discussed the proposal is that Gordon Brown made in his
:24:08. > :24:12.speech, yes or no? You are getting into procedural points. Let me tell
:24:13. > :24:16.you that the government has been discussing more devolution for
:24:17. > :24:21.Scotland ever since the Mackay commission reported... Was the
:24:22. > :24:24.Cabinet consulted? The Cabinet has been involved in this whole process
:24:25. > :24:28.right from the very start, and we have now set out a very clear
:24:29. > :24:32.timetable, not simply Gordon Brown's timetable, we have set that
:24:33. > :24:35.out now, there will be a working party under William Hague, a
:24:36. > :24:39.consultation, a white paper, then draft legislation. We are going to
:24:40. > :24:43.aim to do all of that before the election express. Did you know what
:24:44. > :24:48.Gordon Brown was going to say before he said it? We all know what the
:24:49. > :24:51.drift of this is, we have got to offer the Scottish people and the
:24:52. > :24:55.Scottish Parliament a better settlement. We have to do the same
:24:56. > :25:00.for England as well. You know the drift but not the content? I don't
:25:01. > :25:04.look at the exact content of Gordon Brown's speeches, I don't think he
:25:05. > :25:08.looks at mine, but we are all clear, ourselves and the Liberal Democrats
:25:09. > :25:10.and the SNP this morning, that we need to re-examine the current
:25:11. > :25:14.devolution settlement both for England and for Scotland, and we
:25:15. > :25:19.have now set out a very clear timetable for doing that. So the
:25:20. > :25:22.question of who exactly said what when and so on really is less
:25:23. > :25:25.academic than that commitment from the three main parties to get on
:25:26. > :25:29.with this now. Do you agree with your former Cabinet colleague, Owen
:25:30. > :25:35.Paterson, that the Prime Minister has agreed to some "very rash
:25:36. > :25:40.promises"? No, I don't agree with that. We need to have more
:25:41. > :25:44.devolution, and acknowledge the strength of feeling in Scotland.
:25:45. > :25:47.They need more control over tax, overspending, over the welfare
:25:48. > :25:52.system, but it's equally important to recognise that you can't do that
:25:53. > :25:54.without a fair and balanced system that will allowing them to have the
:25:55. > :26:00.same, and will make sure that English votes only for English laws
:26:01. > :26:06.and English taxes. That is what I think Owen Paterson will welcome.
:26:07. > :26:09.English votes for English laws, is that the policy of the coalition or
:26:10. > :26:14.the policy of the Conservative Party? It is certainly the policy of
:26:15. > :26:19.the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister said that at this morning.
:26:20. > :26:23.The Liberal Democrats too want to see a rebalanced political
:26:24. > :26:27.settlement. The question you should be asking is Labour prepared to
:26:28. > :26:32.answer this, prepared to step up and accent that Scottish Labour MPs
:26:33. > :26:36.should no longer vote on taxes and laws and welfare that applies only
:26:37. > :26:40.in England, and you should be asking Labour that very question. I am
:26:41. > :26:44.always grateful when you help me to give questions to the Labour Party,
:26:45. > :26:49.though to be honest, I do really need your help. Let me ask you this
:26:50. > :26:53.instead, if the coalition, the Lib Dems, are largely onside with this,
:26:54. > :26:57.why did Danny Alexander say on the 17th of September, only a few days
:26:58. > :27:01.ago, there is no party proposing to take away the voting rights of
:27:02. > :27:05.Scottish MPs, that is not part of the agenda, that is not what is
:27:06. > :27:09.going to happen? I will help you further here by saying obviously you
:27:10. > :27:13.need to ask Danny Alexander to account for what he has said. We set
:27:14. > :27:18.out our position very carefully, the new settlement has to be fairer...
:27:19. > :27:22.But you don't me you had the Lib Dems onside. They are onside in
:27:23. > :27:26.recognising that we'd have a more balanced settlement. That is not
:27:27. > :27:30.going to happen, what a bit of the English language do you not
:27:31. > :27:36.understand about Danny Alexander saying it is not going to happen. We
:27:37. > :27:41.will see. William Hague will convene these discussions with the liberal
:27:42. > :27:45.Democrats, and part of the Coalition Government. Obviously, we hope other
:27:46. > :27:50.parties will contribute as well. The other encouraging news is that the
:27:51. > :27:54.SNP will, you have already accepted that you need to press Labour on
:27:55. > :27:57.that. Nobody has an exact way forward here. It is a difficult
:27:58. > :28:01.question, but we are going to get to grips with it and publish our
:28:02. > :28:05.proposals before the general election. The prime and are still
:28:06. > :28:09.says that he needed consensus to take these English devolution
:28:10. > :28:13.proposals forward. If you have Danny Alexander saying it's not going to
:28:14. > :28:16.happen, and we know from speaking to Labour MPs that that is the last
:28:17. > :28:23.thing they want, to lose their voting rights of Scottish MPs, where
:28:24. > :28:27.is the consensus coming from? All parties have to accept, now, that
:28:28. > :28:33.there is a great deal of unease in England, in other parts of the
:28:34. > :28:38.United Kingdom. If more powers are granted to Scotland without some
:28:39. > :28:43.compensating rebalancing of the Blitz was adamant. You will hear
:28:44. > :28:45.voices in the Labour Party, like John Denham, recognising that, and I
:28:46. > :28:51.am sure there are English Liberal Democrats who will recognise that as
:28:52. > :28:56.well. If you cannot get agreement on English devolution, does the plan
:28:57. > :29:02.for Scottish devolution, as outlined in Gordon Brown's timetable with
:29:03. > :29:08.government backing, does it still go ahead if there is not an agreement
:29:09. > :29:11.for English devolution? We are hoping for agreement, we are not
:29:12. > :29:14.planning on failing, and we are hoping for draft legislation before
:29:15. > :29:19.the election so it can be legislated, and be in the
:29:20. > :29:22.manifestoes of the political parties at the general election, so the
:29:23. > :29:26.electorate can also pronounce on whether they access these proposals,
:29:27. > :29:32.then we can put them into statute if they do, early in 2015. In Europe,
:29:33. > :29:36.the unlikely event you don't get agreement, others may think it is
:29:37. > :29:40.highly unlikely you don't, can Scottish devolution go-ahead on its
:29:41. > :29:44.own? Can you meet that thou that was made on the front page of the daily
:29:45. > :29:50.record to the Scottish people come up Will they have to wait until you
:29:51. > :29:53.sort out English devolution? Our aim is to get agreement on this before
:29:54. > :29:56.the general election, and that is what we're doing urgently now in
:29:57. > :30:01.response to the vote last night and the unease that is in inland that if
:30:02. > :30:06.any further parties -- in England if any further powers are given to
:30:07. > :30:11.Scotland, they should be balanced in England. We are not aiming to fail.
:30:12. > :30:15.Can you just explain to our viewers, including your backbench colleagues
:30:16. > :30:19.who may be watching this, what is the logic of giving the Scottish
:30:20. > :30:24.Parliament substantial tax raising powers, which is what you intend to
:30:25. > :30:37.do, and at the same time enshrining and guarantee -- guaranteeing the
:30:38. > :30:43.Barnett formula? The Barnett formula is declining in importance. It still
:30:44. > :30:49.gives per capita spending in Scotland anything from ?1200 to
:30:50. > :30:53.?1500 more. That recognises some of the differences in Scotland, the
:30:54. > :31:00.wider geography and some of the issues in Scotland of dealing with
:31:01. > :31:04.more remote areas. I'm sorry, the Barnett formula does not recognise
:31:05. > :31:08.that. The Barnett formula is purely based on population. It has nothing
:31:09. > :31:14.to do with geography, nothing to do with need, it is purely population.
:31:15. > :31:19.Let me correct you. The reason the formula was introduced in 1978,
:31:20. > :31:23.statistically it's based on population, but it was precisely to
:31:24. > :31:28.introduced give the Scottish office and now the Scottish Government more
:31:29. > :31:32.flexibility to move spending between different spending lines to cope
:31:33. > :31:36.with the fact that Scotland has a much greater landmass, a different
:31:37. > :31:44.geography, remote areas and there are more Scottish choices to be made
:31:45. > :31:48.between different spending lines. Why did Joe Barnett tell me that it
:31:49. > :31:54.had nothing to do with need or geography? Why did he tell me that?
:31:55. > :32:00.Do you do - do you know more about it than the man who invented it? I
:32:01. > :32:04.know the purpose of it. It does reflect the fact that Scotland has
:32:05. > :32:07.different needs and a different geography to England, just as in
:32:08. > :32:11.England we make sure there is more spending that goes to remote areas
:32:12. > :32:29.like Cornwall or the north-west of England or where ever it is. We
:32:30. > :32:32.recognise these things in public spending, but it is declining in its
:32:33. > :32:34.significance because we have delegated more powers anyway to the
:32:35. > :32:36.Scottish Parliament. If it's to do with geography and sparse
:32:37. > :32:38.population, why does Wales do badly out of the Barnett formula and
:32:39. > :32:43.Scotland do well? I don't agree. It does! I don't agree. They do better
:32:44. > :32:49.than England out of the formula and that recognises that peripheral
:32:50. > :32:52.parts of the UK have different geographies and slightly different
:32:53. > :32:55.priorities when it comes to what they want to spend their money on.
:32:56. > :33:01.It also recognises that they should have the ability to switch spending
:33:02. > :33:05.if they don't need it in particular areas and they have a higher
:33:06. > :33:09.priority in others. That was the essence of the Barnett formula. It
:33:10. > :33:17.gave them more flexibility and more abilities to switch. All right,
:33:18. > :33:20.thank you. It's a busy day for you, but at least you don't have to worry
:33:21. > :33:28.about repositioning the nuclear submarines! Let's go to Glasgow. I
:33:29. > :33:35.said we would speak to Kevin McCabe of the Observer. He backed the yes
:33:36. > :33:48.campaign. Why did you lose? Hello, say that again. Why did you lose? I
:33:49. > :33:53.think the stampede over the last ten days of the four horsemen of the
:33:54. > :34:01.British establishment coming north, spreading scare stories... I thought
:34:02. > :34:04.it was the three Stooges! If you include big business, corporate
:34:05. > :34:12.interest, the banks, Westminster, the massed ranks of the endless
:34:13. > :34:15.-based media, they were spending - spreading a compelling story for
:34:16. > :34:19.people in Scotland watching the pennies, people with a new mortgage
:34:20. > :34:25.trying to find a deposit, a couple of children preschool who perhaps
:34:26. > :34:29.had espoused sympathy for nationalism and independents in the
:34:30. > :34:34.last 18 months, but in the secrecy and the quietness of the polling
:34:35. > :34:44.booth began to consider things. I think also the Nationalists were
:34:45. > :34:53.always climbing down escalator, basically. They had started off with
:34:54. > :34:57.a deficit of 25 to 30 points. 22. They had glimpsed Eden over the
:34:58. > :35:01.horizon about ten days ago. There was always going to be a tall order.
:35:02. > :35:08.I think there were still questions about currency and it's all very
:35:09. > :35:13.well for us and the chattering classes and the political classes to
:35:14. > :35:16.talk about currency or dismissed concerns, but working men wondering
:35:17. > :35:20.what their pay packet will look like can be quite a compelling
:35:21. > :35:27.distraction. I always thought we called them the blethering classes
:35:28. > :35:33.in Scotland! I understand all that and I'm sure that played a role in
:35:34. > :35:37.the no vote being larger than most people thought it would be. But
:35:38. > :35:43.didn't we know the impact that that was having and yet right up to the
:35:44. > :35:47.end, most of the leaders of the yes campaign that time it worked pretty
:35:48. > :35:55.convincing to me that they thought they would win. Well, we've
:35:56. > :35:58.basically in new territory. Most of those people would have been
:35:59. > :36:03.veterans of multiparty elections and even some of the posters I spoke to
:36:04. > :36:10.in the last week were nursing some serious misgivings and wondering if
:36:11. > :36:13.they were going to be in 1992 situation again when they called
:36:14. > :36:19.finial Kinnock and he was beaten roundly. - Neil Kinnock. One of the
:36:20. > :36:25.things was the sheer scale of numbers. They had never been in this
:36:26. > :36:29.territory before with an expected 80% plus turnout. They were looking
:36:30. > :36:34.at margins of error. With the best will in the world, no matter how
:36:35. > :36:38.good the strategists were on either side, it was new territory. One
:36:39. > :36:43.thing the Nationalists have always been good at is espousing optimism,
:36:44. > :36:48.always talking about hope. They were much more visible throughout the
:36:49. > :36:52.campaign than the no side. Perhaps there were some people on the
:36:53. > :36:57.national side who were a little more seduced by the visible signs of
:36:58. > :37:02.optimism and confidence and what we were going to do than was perhaps
:37:03. > :37:13.the case. That palpably was the case. Where does the independence
:37:14. > :37:19.movement go from here? It's a very interesting question. Alex Salmond,
:37:20. > :37:23.as you know, has been talking about independence being off the table for
:37:24. > :37:30.a generation. However, that's not what I'm hearing up here. The four
:37:31. > :37:36.council areas where the yes vote held up were amongst the most poor,
:37:37. > :37:41.the ones with the most problems of social deprivation. These are major
:37:42. > :37:49.Labour areas. The Nationalists would not have achieved anything like a
:37:50. > :37:53.45% vote if it hadn't been for the wholesale defection of tens of
:37:54. > :37:57.thousands of Labour voters. Therein lies a massive problem for the
:37:58. > :38:01.Labour Party in Scotland. A year after the Westminster elections, we
:38:02. > :38:07.have the Holyrood elections. Thousands of Labour voters who were
:38:08. > :38:11.made to feel like ghosts and demonised in their own party may
:38:12. > :38:17.choose then to visit some replies all on the Scottish Labour Party.
:38:18. > :38:22.That would probably lead to a second consecutive overall SNP majority. If
:38:23. > :38:26.the parties of the union do not deliver the full extent of their
:38:27. > :38:32.promises of greater devolved powers, many in the SNP, I suspect, will see
:38:33. > :38:36.that as a mandate, along with the fact that 1.6 million people voted
:38:37. > :38:41.for independence last night. They'll see that as a mandate for calling
:38:42. > :38:45.for another referendum and that's a problem that Ed Miliband, David
:38:46. > :38:49.Cameron. Ed Miliband has a problem with what has happened to the Labour
:38:50. > :38:57.Party in Scotland. Is it not a problem for Scotland, too, that it
:38:58. > :39:02.gets locked up in referendums and the constitutional issue takes up
:39:03. > :39:09.all the energy when what is needed is energy for economic growth, jobs,
:39:10. > :39:13.anti-poverty policies, child poverty strategies. Isn't there a danger
:39:14. > :39:17.that constitutional matters overshadow everything else? Yeah,
:39:18. > :39:22.there is a degree of that, Andrew, but you know what else? Fashion all
:39:23. > :39:27.politicians, careerist politicians, which Westminster is full of these
:39:28. > :39:32.days, not to mention a lot of Holyrood, they hate the fact, and
:39:33. > :39:37.they are scared, a lot of these people were scared to their very
:39:38. > :39:41.foundations because of what happened in Scotland in the last 18 months.
:39:42. > :39:48.There was a transferrin is, if you like, of political know-how and
:39:49. > :39:52.politics taken out of the ivory towers, the gilded chambers of
:39:53. > :39:55.Holyrood and Westminster and onto the streets. The last thing they
:39:56. > :40:00.would want is for this to happen again. I've seen a lot of people on
:40:01. > :40:05.both sides energised and politicised and that means tens of thousands
:40:06. > :40:10.more people now have the tools and the information and the ability to
:40:11. > :40:16.obtain that information, to scrutinise the doings of the elected
:40:17. > :40:19.masters to a greater degree than was previously apparent. Thank you for
:40:20. > :40:24.that. It is clear that although you didn't get the result you wanted,
:40:25. > :40:28.Scottish politics will not be the same again, or even Scottish
:40:29. > :40:35.society. Thank you for joining us. What did you make of that? Kevin or
:40:36. > :40:39.your Gilbert and Sullivan interviewed with Michael Fallon?
:40:40. > :40:43.Only the British Conservative Party in its present state could bring you
:40:44. > :40:47.such an Op Urreta as they are now going to. The obvious answer is we
:40:48. > :40:53.will sort out the Scottish question and then we will get together with
:40:54. > :40:56.the other parties and sort out the bigger English question. Maybe David
:40:57. > :41:05.Cameron's backbenchers won't let him do that. They can be fetid. -
:41:06. > :41:09.defeated. What will the Lib Dems do if the coalition? It's quite
:41:10. > :41:15.possible there is no proposition to go with Labour or the Liberal
:41:16. > :41:19.Democrats. Relying upon a whole lot of Cross backbenchers is not his
:41:20. > :41:26.best option. Nevertheless, that seems to be the way he's playing it.
:41:27. > :41:32.I greatly enjoyed going through that with Michael Fallon, but he has to
:41:33. > :41:37.make this thing work. He seemed to suggest the solution would be found
:41:38. > :41:42.in seven months. This is one of this you just constitutional shifts. This
:41:43. > :41:48.is the sort of thing countries spend years on. The problem David Cameron
:41:49. > :41:51.has now got, he's got from now until the election, cross voters in
:41:52. > :41:56.England, Nigel Farage this morning stirring it up, he has to produce
:41:57. > :41:59.something that looks like it can balance out the devolution offered
:42:00. > :42:05.to Scotland within seven months. I don't think you can. He has to do a
:42:06. > :42:10.lot of smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's taking it seriously.
:42:11. > :42:14.It's clear that a no result, although it removes the existential
:42:15. > :42:18.threat to the British state for now, raises a whole lot of other issues
:42:19. > :42:22.as well that have yet to be resolved. We've already talked about
:42:23. > :42:26.the extra powers that will be default to Scotland. It's not
:42:27. > :42:29.exactly clear what they will be. Labour and Conservative don't agree
:42:30. > :42:37.on how much income tax will be devolved. We do know the timetable
:42:38. > :42:44.as outlined by Gordon Brown. What about the detail?
:42:45. > :42:49.Holyrood will already gained some new powers from the Scotland act of
:42:50. > :42:54.2012, which will mean that in 2016 Edinburgh will have the power to
:42:55. > :42:58.vary income tax by 10p and borrow more money. However there is
:42:59. > :43:03.currently disagreement over how much further Westminster should go. The
:43:04. > :43:08.Conservatives want to see Scotland given complete power over income tax
:43:09. > :43:13.and possibly a share of VAT receipts. Labour would vary the
:43:14. > :43:19.amount income tax can be changed from 10p to 15p as well as default
:43:20. > :43:30.thing other areas such as housing benefit. The Liberal Democrats are
:43:31. > :43:32.in favour of a federal United Kingdom and they would give Scotland
:43:33. > :43:34.further control over taxation, including inheritance tax, capital
:43:35. > :43:36.gains tax and income tax. However, as David Cameron indicated this
:43:37. > :43:41.morning, it's not just Scotland that could see a power change. The Prime
:43:42. > :43:44.Minister said he wants to see a fair and balanced settlement with only
:43:45. > :43:50.English MPs being allowed to decide on English laws in Parliament.
:43:51. > :43:55.Conservative MPs were vocal this morning, calling for more English
:43:56. > :43:59.devolution. So was Nigel Farage. Labour's spokespeople were thin on
:44:00. > :44:04.the ground. Eventually we got this from Ed Miliband. We will also meet
:44:05. > :44:09.the desire for change across England, Wales and the whole of the
:44:10. > :44:13.UK. Devolution is not just a good idea for Scotland and Wales, it is a
:44:14. > :44:20.good idea for England and Northern Ireland, as it is already. It's also
:44:21. > :44:26.the case, friends, that we must meet the first change in reforming the of
:44:27. > :44:30.our country and who it works for. Gordon Brown only got a passing
:44:31. > :44:34.mention in that speech. The Deputy Prime Minister was also pressing for
:44:35. > :44:40.a new agreement for England and the rest of the UK. We need to address
:44:41. > :44:44.this huge missing bit of the jigsaw, which is England. For far too long,
:44:45. > :44:50.far too many decisions have been taken on by half of the towns,
:44:51. > :44:55.villages, cities and counties of England by Westminster and Whitehall
:44:56. > :44:58.and we need to release that grip of Westminster and Whitehall which has
:44:59. > :45:03.stifled governments across England for too long. I see today is the
:45:04. > :45:09.beginning of the process, not the end, where we reaffirm what unites
:45:10. > :45:12.us. Nigel Farage has also been getting stuck into the debate this
:45:13. > :45:17.morning, there's a surprise, demanding a better deal for
:45:18. > :45:21.England. I'm sorry, quite honestly, the English taxpayer has been very
:45:22. > :45:26.patient, very quiet through this. We spent as a nation ?1600 a head more
:45:27. > :45:31.on every Scot than we do on every English person. The Barnett formula
:45:32. > :45:33.is should be debated openly in the House of Commons. Let's get the
:45:34. > :45:44.country involved. OK, let's talk to James Landale in
:45:45. > :45:49.Downing Street. When was it decided that English devolution would now go
:45:50. > :45:53.in tandem with Scottish devolution? I think it has been in the minds of
:45:54. > :45:56.David Cameron and his advisers ever since they realise they have two say
:45:57. > :46:00.something to try and shift the debate within the referendum. It is,
:46:01. > :46:06.I have to say, Conservative policy, it was in the last manifesto so it
:46:07. > :46:09.is nothing new for them. But I think this strategic decision to link
:46:10. > :46:12.Scottish devolution with English devolution was the new idea, simply
:46:13. > :46:16.because, on the one hand, it makes it more likely that it will happen
:46:17. > :46:19.but also politically it makes it hugely difficult for the Labour
:46:20. > :46:22.Party, and I think that would have been very attractive, not just to
:46:23. > :46:25.David Cameron but also to George Osborne, who I believe has had his
:46:26. > :46:29.hands all over the statement this morning. Crucially, because it now
:46:30. > :46:40.puts the onus on the Labour Party to agree some kind of extra power for
:46:41. > :46:42.English MPs, that means less power for Scottish MPs, and that means a
:46:43. > :46:45.future Labour government would find it harder to get its legislation
:46:46. > :46:47.through. So, a huge challenge for Ed Miliband in the months ahead, as all
:46:48. > :46:51.the parties come together and they try to agree some kind of procedure,
:46:52. > :46:55.some kind of rule that they can all agree with and have some draft
:46:56. > :47:01.legislation by January, which is a very fast timetable that the Prime
:47:02. > :47:06.Minister has said. Does Mr Cameron's concept of English
:47:07. > :47:10.devolution involve any more than English votes for English laws?
:47:11. > :47:19.Well, today he was very specific, he said... He also said the same would
:47:20. > :47:23.be true in Northern Ireland and Wales. The key question is, what
:47:24. > :47:27.exactly would they be voting on? There is a difference between an
:47:28. > :47:31.indicative vote that allows English MPs to express their opinion, then
:47:32. > :47:36.there is colourful example, English MPs voting on the detailed of the
:47:37. > :47:39.legislation, maybe by setting up a special grand committee, and then
:47:40. > :47:44.there is the other end of the spectrum, essentially them voting on
:47:45. > :47:47.all English legislation entirely, effectively setting up an English
:47:48. > :47:50.parliament. I don't think they will go down that route. They will have
:47:51. > :47:54.to find a middle way some way that is enough to satisfy his Tory
:47:55. > :48:00.critics but enough that is sellable to the Labour Party, ultimately. I
:48:01. > :48:04.am joined now in the studio by Labour MP, Diane Abbott, she follows
:48:05. > :48:09.me everywhere. And by the Conservative back venture, Bernard
:48:10. > :48:17.Jenkin, in Westminster. Bernard, did the Prime Minister jumped the gun
:48:18. > :48:24.and trash the British constitution on the basis of a rogue poll? I
:48:25. > :48:27.don't think it's important. I don't know whether making these extra
:48:28. > :48:32.promises at the last minute had any effect on the pole. It was not as
:48:33. > :48:35.good a win as we wanted, and as a result of this whole exercise we do
:48:36. > :48:40.have the whole British constitution in something of a state of flux. The
:48:41. > :48:43.question is where we go from here. Would answering the West Lothian
:48:44. > :48:47.question in the way the Prime Minister has indicated, a newish
:48:48. > :48:52.votes for English laws, would that be enough for you on English
:48:53. > :48:55.devolution? I don't think it will be enough for English MPs. The
:48:56. > :48:59.principle should be, if we want the United Kingdom to survive, we have
:49:00. > :49:03.to have the four components of the union treated the same. So what is
:49:04. > :49:09.good for Scottish MPs in Holyrood has to be good for English MPs at
:49:10. > :49:14.Westminster. We should be able to decide our only just lesion in
:49:15. > :49:18.Westminster. The Mackay commission, which was set up to look at this,
:49:19. > :49:21.was a bit watery on the subject, and that's not good enough. What we want
:49:22. > :49:25.is to be able to control our own legislation in the same way as the
:49:26. > :49:30.Scots controlled the legislation, the Welsh, and Northern Ireland.
:49:31. > :49:36.What this envisages is a proper federal system, and the money has
:49:37. > :49:42.got to be decided on an equal and fair basis, as well. Just before I
:49:43. > :49:46.bring in Diane Abbott, can I just checked on a proper federal system?
:49:47. > :49:52.With that mean we have a Prime Minister for the United Kingdom and
:49:53. > :49:58.a First Minister for England? Yes. I see, quite radical change. You said
:49:59. > :50:01.to me last night on the results programme, Scotland Decides, that
:50:02. > :50:07.you thought the time would come for English votes for English laws, but
:50:08. > :50:12.that would be right. My view, and it is a personal view, is it is not
:50:13. > :50:16.intellectually coherent if the further devolution to Holyrood is
:50:17. > :50:23.going to mean anything to continue to have Scottish MPs voting on
:50:24. > :50:28.reserved matters. It is not your party bus like policy though, is it?
:50:29. > :50:34.I am not sure what my party's policy is. We are very reluctant to see
:50:35. > :50:39.Scottish MPs not allowed to vote, but the danger is if we don't arrive
:50:40. > :50:42.with a deal with the Tories on this devolution settlement promised by
:50:43. > :50:46.Gordon Brown before the general election, the real people who will
:50:47. > :50:49.suffer will be the Labour Party in Scotland, because the SNP will be
:50:50. > :50:53.running around saying look, we told you it was all meaningless. Bernard
:50:54. > :50:58.Jenkin, if we had a First Minister Finland, as we have the Scotland and
:50:59. > :51:02.Wales and Northern Ireland, would it have its own parliament and where
:51:03. > :51:07.would it be? No, I think the two days a week you have a Jewish MPs
:51:08. > :51:14.sitting as the English Parliament in the Palace of Westminster. Deciding
:51:15. > :51:20.-- you have English MPs sitting as being this Parliament. Supposing we
:51:21. > :51:23.devolve taxation powers to Scotland, are we seriously one day
:51:24. > :51:27.to have another Labour Chancellor, who might be Scottish, in his or her
:51:28. > :51:31.budget, setting out what the tax rates should be for people in
:51:32. > :51:36.England, but not able to set his or her own tax rate in Scotland? This
:51:37. > :51:39.is the West Lothian question getting more and more significant as more
:51:40. > :51:43.and more powers are devolved. This is a very Tory tradition, that we
:51:44. > :51:49.finish off other people's reforms that we opposed to start with. We
:51:50. > :51:53.opposed the reform act in 1832, we finished it with 1867, all male
:51:54. > :51:58.suffrage, and then suffrage for women later on. We opposed
:51:59. > :52:01.devolution. Well, we have devolution in Scotland and Wales and Northern
:52:02. > :52:06.Ireland now, we have to finish the job and have proper devolution in
:52:07. > :52:10.England as well full stop now you are stealing the Liberal
:52:11. > :52:13.Democrats's policy, which has always been in favour of this. I think the
:52:14. > :52:21.liberal democrats should come along with us on this. Is there any sign,
:52:22. > :52:25.Diane Abbott, that the Labour Party is thinking of a credible, serious,
:52:26. > :52:29.radical devolution policy for England? To be quite honest, the
:52:30. > :52:36.proposals we are talking about today were drawn up by Gordon Brown in the
:52:37. > :52:40.heat of what appeared to be a losing referendum battle. It's called
:52:41. > :52:47.panic. You can call it that, I couldn't possibly comment, but if
:52:48. > :52:51.the Labour Party is seen to not deliver on what Gordon Brown
:52:52. > :52:56.promised, we will pay a price. Bernard Jenkin, can I come back to
:52:57. > :52:59.you in the final minute? Your proposal for a federation is
:53:00. > :53:03.interesting but I propose to you that cannot be achieved in the
:53:04. > :53:06.short-term, that is a massive redrawing of the British
:53:07. > :53:10.constitution and would take years? Actually, we can organise the
:53:11. > :53:13.English vote for English laws without any UK override through our
:53:14. > :53:18.own standing orders and procedures. That could be done in a week. That
:53:19. > :53:22.does not create a federation. The question as to whether we should
:53:23. > :53:25.having this department and English ministers, that can evolve over
:53:26. > :53:29.time, let's not do that a rush and let's think about that. But the
:53:30. > :53:33.point is English votes for English laws has consequences for Whitehall.
:53:34. > :53:36.How could you have English MPs determining English laws but not
:53:37. > :53:40.able to hold accountable direct to them the ministers who are
:53:41. > :53:46.implementing those policies? It is a nonsense. Final word, briefly,
:53:47. > :53:50.Diane. Mo I respect Bernard Jenkin, but this is madness. Labour MPs are
:53:51. > :53:55.trying to unite behind Ed Miliband, particularly when we find out what
:53:56. > :53:58.our precise policies are. I am trying to save the union, because if
:53:59. > :54:03.we don't have the competence of settlement across the United
:54:04. > :54:05.Kingdom, Alex Salmond will be back having another row with Westminster
:54:06. > :54:10.and he will have another referendum, we have one last chance to save the
:54:11. > :54:12.union. I thought that just happened yesterday, but never mind, Bernard
:54:13. > :54:16.Jenkin, thank you for joining us, and Diane Abbott as well. It was a
:54:17. > :54:21.momentous night, not just in Scotland but for the whole of the
:54:22. > :54:26.Kingdom. Here is a reminder of how the events of the last 24 hours
:54:27. > :54:27.unfolded. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take Scotland's
:54:28. > :55:33.future into Scotland's hands. The BBC's forecast now is that
:55:34. > :55:47.Scotland has voted no to independence. CHEERING
:55:48. > :55:59.No, 194,638. Scotland has, by majority, decided
:56:00. > :56:02.not, at this stage, to become an independent country. I accept that
:56:03. > :56:23.verdict of the people. DRAMATIC MUSIC people who are
:56:24. > :56:35.disengaged from politics have turned out in large numbers.
:56:36. > :56:42.Just as the people of Scotland will have more power over their affairs,
:56:43. > :56:43.so it follows that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland
:56:44. > :57:03.must have a bigger say over theirs. I will finish the Daily Politics
:57:04. > :57:06.with Peter Hennessy. What an extraordinary 24 hours, we have
:57:07. > :57:10.never lived through 24 hours like this. Yesterday at this time, we
:57:11. > :57:14.were worried that the United Kingdom might be dissolved by this time on
:57:15. > :57:17.Friday. It hasn't. We wake up, we find ourselves in this vast
:57:18. > :57:22.constitutional building site without a plan, without even the sketchiest
:57:23. > :57:26.blueprint, and what we really need is to pause and to think, and to
:57:27. > :57:30.work out how to design something that fits all these multiplicity of
:57:31. > :57:34.needs. It has to be a royal commission or a convention of some
:57:35. > :57:39.kind. That doesn't meet the Gordon Brown timetable though, does it?
:57:40. > :57:42.There is a kind of mania abroad, for a country that is supposed to be
:57:43. > :57:46.phlegmatic and the mature is democracy in the world, we have gone
:57:47. > :57:51.slightly bonkers. I know there are many flaws in our system, of course
:57:52. > :57:57.you are a member of it, the House of Lords would be one that comes to
:57:58. > :58:00.mind... You are too kind! I know that, but politicians, right, left
:58:01. > :58:04.and centre, are they not being rather cavalier with something that
:58:05. > :58:08.has evolved over the years and wake up with a good idea and want to rip
:58:09. > :58:13.it apart? They are distilling their own frenzy, each one is feeding off
:58:14. > :58:18.the other, it is time for a bit of calmness, reason and a bit of
:58:19. > :58:22.careful R and D, both intellectual and political. I suppose what Gordon
:58:23. > :58:25.Brown was talking about is not as easy to come by as he was implying,
:58:26. > :58:31.but in the end that might be what needs to happen. You need eight
:58:32. > :58:37.consensus for long-lasting constitutional change, otherwise it
:58:38. > :58:40.won't insure. We have a genius, we Brits, for smart muddling through.
:58:41. > :58:47.This is muddling through without the Smart. When I interviewed you for my
:58:48. > :58:50.documentary, you were worried about the union now, but that fear in your
:58:51. > :58:56.mind has gone away for now. Just now. I do worry if we squeak out of
:58:57. > :58:59.the European Union in the next ten years, it will reopen the Scottish
:59:00. > :59:04.question, because they will vote to stay in the EU. In ten years time, I
:59:05. > :59:07.am not a pessimist, we could be out of the EU and without Scotland. We
:59:08. > :59:10.have to be very careful how we tread. Peter Hennessy, thank you
:59:11. > :59:15.very much, a pleasure to be with you.
:59:16. > :59:18.Thanks to David Aaronovitch, Anne McElvoy,
:59:19. > :59:23.I'll be back on BBC One this Sunday morning at 11.00am ,
:59:24. > :59:26.when the Sunday Politics will be live from the Labour party