:00:37. > :00:39.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:41.Chancellor George Osborne is said to be in listening mode,
:00:42. > :00:46.but will that stop peers killing off his cuts to tax credits?
:00:47. > :00:49.Members of the House of Lords are on their way back to Westminster
:00:50. > :00:53.where later today they'll have to decide whether to derail the plans.
:00:54. > :00:58.If they do, will it set them on constitutional collision course?
:00:59. > :01:01.John Bercow is loved by some, loathed by others.
:01:02. > :01:03.We know he likes to scold naughty ministers, but has he
:01:04. > :01:10.The Calais migrant crisis has slipped out of the news
:01:11. > :01:14.but hauliers say its threatening trade and their livelihoods.
:01:15. > :01:18.We'll be talking to one MP who's calling for action.
:01:19. > :01:22.And it's been the stationery of choice at Parliament for centuries,
:01:23. > :01:25.but campaigners want plans to use paper instead of vellum, that's made
:01:26. > :01:37.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:38. > :01:40.of the programme today, I'm joined by the Conservative MP Paul Scully
:01:41. > :01:47.So, let's talk first today about the government's changes to
:01:48. > :01:49.tax credits, which independent researcher say will cost three
:01:50. > :01:57.Having spent weeks insisting that there will be no change to the
:01:58. > :02:01.policy despite growing criticism from inside and outside the
:02:02. > :02:06.Conservative Party, George Osborne is now said to be in listening mode.
:02:07. > :02:09.But will that sway peers this afternoon as they vote on a series
:02:10. > :02:13.of motions that could postpone or kill off the tax credit changes?
:02:14. > :02:16.And if they do try to block the plans, will it lead to
:02:17. > :02:19.Well, here's the minister Matt Hancock
:02:20. > :02:31.These changes are important and are part of a broader package to make
:02:32. > :02:37.sure that the country can live within its means and we move from a
:02:38. > :02:42.low wage, high welfare, high tax economy to a higher pay, lower
:02:43. > :02:47.welfare, lower tax society. We don't take money away from people and give
:02:48. > :02:51.it back to them so much and benefits and we make sure that the country
:02:52. > :02:55.can pay its way. This has been debated three times in the House of
:02:56. > :02:59.Commons and passed each time with a majority bigger than the government
:03:00. > :03:04.majority. It would be unprecedented for the House of Lords to block a
:03:05. > :03:06.motion like this that is so central to the budget of the country.
:03:07. > :03:08.Well, let's find out more about this afternoon's vote from
:03:09. > :03:11.our political correspondent Chris Mason who's out enjoying a mild
:03:12. > :03:25.Lucky old shoe, Chris. Listening to Matt Hancock, this has been passed
:03:26. > :03:29.in the Commons, but could it be defeated by the Lords? Yes, it
:03:30. > :03:34.could, and that is why there is the drama around the proceedings today.
:03:35. > :03:39.There is a sea of Westminster jargon to paddle through. Talk of statutory
:03:40. > :03:45.instruments and kill motions. One of my bosses were saying that I should
:03:46. > :03:50.be fined for using phrases like that, but you can forget those
:03:51. > :03:54.terms, because it boils down to two things. One, the millions of people
:03:55. > :03:59.who could be affected by the government's changes, and secondly,
:04:00. > :04:02.the sense of drama around today's debate in the House of Lords. There
:04:03. > :04:08.is always drama around tight, unpredictable votes, and
:04:09. > :04:12.particularly in the Lords where, frankly, people are more
:04:13. > :04:17.independently minded. There are crossbenchers and independent peers
:04:18. > :04:23.who are not whipped. They are only their own bosses. There is a sense
:04:24. > :04:27.of uncertainty about precisely what will happen as the series of motions
:04:28. > :04:31.are put forward and we find out at around eight o'clock tonight what
:04:32. > :04:36.will happen. What about this phrase that the Chancellor is in listening
:04:37. > :04:42.mode? Is it meaningless? Or does it indicate a change in stance by
:04:43. > :04:47.George Osborne? It's a corking phrase, because it creates an image
:04:48. > :04:50.of him walking round the rest of the time with a pair of ear defenders
:04:51. > :04:55.on. What does it mean speaking to people here? I think it is keen that
:04:56. > :04:59.the Conservatives are keen to push out a message that they get the
:05:00. > :05:03.scale of concern articulated about the changes, the scale on their own
:05:04. > :05:06.benches in the Commons, the scale of concern amongst the press that are
:05:07. > :05:13.normally supportive of the Conservative Party. Even like the
:05:14. > :05:16.Spectator. They are entertaining the idea that they can do something to
:05:17. > :05:21.mitigate the effect of these changes, possibly in the Autumn
:05:22. > :05:26.Statement, the mini budget in a month's time. We do not have any
:05:27. > :05:29.detail and there is no meat on the bones but that appears to be where
:05:30. > :05:33.they are heading. At the same time, they are making a real noise about
:05:34. > :05:39.what they see as the constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to throw
:05:40. > :05:43.out something that has been back three times by the elected House of
:05:44. > :05:45.Commons which adds to the sense of drama as we look ahead to the
:05:46. > :05:47.debates this afternoon. Chris Mason, thank you.
:05:48. > :05:50.So we're told that George Osborne is in listening mode, and there's been
:05:51. > :05:53.speculation for weeks that he may do something in next month's Spending
:05:54. > :05:56.Review and Autumn Statement to help those affected by the tax credit
:05:57. > :05:58.changes, which are designed to save ?4.5 billion.
:05:59. > :06:00.Well, to talk about what options he might have
:06:01. > :06:07.we're joined by James Brown from the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
:06:08. > :06:14.Does he actually have, George Osborne, any wriggle room if he
:06:15. > :06:18.wants to save ?4.5 billion? There are different things you can do to
:06:19. > :06:22.save that amount of money. He could increase taxes on a different group
:06:23. > :06:25.and reduce benefits on a different group or reduce departmental
:06:26. > :06:29.spending by more. But if you are looking to take a similar amount of
:06:30. > :06:33.money from a similar group of people, there are not many other
:06:34. > :06:37.options you can look to. These tax credits are well targeted on a
:06:38. > :06:41.particular group. What about the claims that the government and
:06:42. > :06:47.ministers keep making that, overall, when you take in people coming out
:06:48. > :06:50.of tax and increasing thresholds and wages going up, is it true to say
:06:51. > :06:54.that most of these people affected by the tax credit system will be
:06:55. > :06:59.better off? No, I don't think it's likely these people will be better
:07:00. > :07:04.off overall. These are very big reductions in tax credit entitlement
:07:05. > :07:10.is coming in next April, averaging around ?1100 per household. Only
:07:11. > :07:16.about two fifths of these households contain somebody paid less than the
:07:17. > :07:20.living wage, for example. For a lot of these people there won't be
:07:21. > :07:25.anything else that is offsetting the reduction in tax credits. Paul
:07:26. > :07:27.Scully, there you have heard it from the Institute for Fiscal Studies,
:07:28. > :07:33.most people will not be better off, even when you take on other
:07:34. > :07:39.factors. I disagree. They are wrong at the Institute for Fiscal Studies?
:07:40. > :07:46.Over the parliament, people will be ?2400 per year better off. Is that
:07:47. > :07:49.true? Going further forward it could be possible that further increases
:07:50. > :07:52.in earnings might mean that by 2020 some people will be better off then
:07:53. > :07:58.than they are currently. But not all? You can construct examples.
:07:59. > :08:03.There are a lot of other things going on. Let's take your point that
:08:04. > :08:08.some of them would be better off by 2020, we are in 2015 and the changes
:08:09. > :08:13.coming next April, so those people will all, by your own calculations,
:08:14. > :08:18.be worse off for a period of time. There is no easy way of doing the
:08:19. > :08:21.changes we have to do. We know we have to take ?12 billion out of the
:08:22. > :08:25.welfare budget overall and this is an important cornerstone of it.
:08:26. > :08:29.There are important and difficult decisions to be made, but what we
:08:30. > :08:33.need to do is look at it as an overall package. We talked about the
:08:34. > :08:35.end of the parliament, but we are also talking about the national
:08:36. > :08:41.living wage coming in and we also have the increase in tax thresholds
:08:42. > :08:49.as well, where you start paying tax. There are other changes to
:08:50. > :08:52.childcare. You heard some of the tweaks and proposals the Chancellor
:08:53. > :08:57.could take to further mitigate the changes. Would you like to see him
:08:58. > :09:04.do that? I would like to continue to see him to listen. It will be for
:09:05. > :09:07.him to then look at the specifics. I have heard from EIF S and from a
:09:08. > :09:12.number of other different think tanks and economists and they are
:09:13. > :09:18.coming up with different figures. It would be nice for him to come up
:09:19. > :09:21.with different figures, go away and consider the things that the
:09:22. > :09:26.organisations have said. So you would like to see tweaks to it? What
:09:27. > :09:29.I don't want to see is the whole thing derailed by an unprecedented
:09:30. > :09:33.move in the House of Lords this afternoon. That is crucial. We are
:09:34. > :09:40.going to come onto that. In a sense, do you agree with reform to the tax
:09:41. > :09:43.credit system? That it should be cut on principle anyway? I think it is
:09:44. > :09:47.totally the wrong priority. They're all sorts of ways to make savings in
:09:48. > :09:50.the welfare system. The money we spend on housing benefit is a huge
:09:51. > :09:54.issue and we should bring it down. The money we spend on inheritance
:09:55. > :09:58.tax. There are number of different ways that we put it forward to
:09:59. > :10:02.change spending. These are people at the bottom trying to struggle to
:10:03. > :10:05.make ends meet week by week, day by day, and these are the people the
:10:06. > :10:09.Tories said they were standing up for. They are totally at odds with
:10:10. > :10:12.their policy and rhetoric and have got themselves in knots. I'm glad to
:10:13. > :10:17.hear George Osborne is listening, but the wall of noise from the Sun
:10:18. > :10:21.newspaper, the Tory backbenches is overwhelming and he has to change
:10:22. > :10:27.his mind. How much has the tax credit builder gone up since it was
:10:28. > :10:31.introduced? I think at the back end of 1997 we were spending 8 billion
:10:32. > :10:38.per year -- the tax credit bill gone up. Currently it is about ?30
:10:39. > :10:41.billion. It goes to show how much this area of support for low-income
:10:42. > :10:46.families through these tax credits has been increasing, particularly
:10:47. > :10:51.during the last Labour period in government. These changes will only
:10:52. > :10:55.slightly role that back, but even so, you still have a lot of people
:10:56. > :11:00.losing out on quite a lot of money from the changes. Would you support
:11:01. > :11:06.John McDonnell bringing in higher taxes, that is how he would go in on
:11:07. > :11:12.covering the tax credit Bill? There are people better off to foot the
:11:13. > :11:16.bill. We should look at inheritance tax. There is a whole raft of
:11:17. > :11:21.measures. To hit those people who work in day in, day out, at the
:11:22. > :11:27.NHS, school assistance, these are the ones we are clobbering and it is
:11:28. > :11:31.deeply unfair. When we took over the Coalition Government in 2010, nine
:11:32. > :11:36.out of ten families were reliant on tax credits. How can it be that we
:11:37. > :11:40.have created a system where people are paying tax then getting a pat on
:11:41. > :11:46.the head and getting money back from the state? It's important in terms
:11:47. > :11:53.of changing the economy from a low pay, high tax economy through to a
:11:54. > :11:57.higher pay, low tax economy where people can keep more of their own
:11:58. > :12:02.money. Do you think the tax credit system is wrong in principle? That
:12:03. > :12:04.it is wrong to subsidise, if you like, some employers by paying
:12:05. > :12:12.people through the tax credit system? So would you like to see a
:12:13. > :12:17.dismantled altogether? By changing it, you do it gradually, but you get
:12:18. > :12:23.a ripple effect. You have big employers like Asda, Tesco, the sort
:12:24. > :12:27.of companies who are increasing their salaries now and not waiting
:12:28. > :12:30.for the national living wage to come in next year. That will be a big
:12:31. > :12:34.benefit to people, because at the end of the day has to be work and
:12:35. > :12:40.getting into gainful employment that pays. Just finally, the government
:12:41. > :12:45.talks about ?12 billion worth of cuts to the welfare bill. Where does
:12:46. > :12:50.the rest of it come from? The other changes they are bringing in the
:12:51. > :12:55.benefits are being frozen for the next four years which gives you
:12:56. > :13:00.another four or ?5 billion. There are cuts to tax credits for new
:13:01. > :13:08.claimants, so the two child limit introduced from April 20 17th. --
:13:09. > :13:09.April 2017. They also reducing social rents to reduce the housing
:13:10. > :13:12.benefit bill. Thank you very much. So yesterday
:13:13. > :13:13.the education secretary Nicky Morgan warned peers not to block tax credit
:13:14. > :13:16.changes which have been agreed by MPs, warning the move would be
:13:17. > :13:19."constitutionally unprecedented". Well, the Liberal Democrats,
:13:20. > :13:22.who have 111 peers, are trying to We're joined now by one of them,
:13:23. > :13:37.Susan Kramer. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.
:13:38. > :13:42.Your party has eight MPs, you spectacularly lost the general
:13:43. > :13:46.election. Why do you think it is acceptable to block the legislation
:13:47. > :13:50.of the party who has won a majority? We have a 2 house parliament and
:13:51. > :13:53.there is a significant and important role for the House of Lords. In the
:13:54. > :13:57.last Parliament, my party tried to change it to an elected house and
:13:58. > :14:01.both Conservatives and Labour came back with a message that you can
:14:02. > :14:06.carry out your responsibilities on an unelected basis. We are carrying
:14:07. > :14:09.out our responsibilities. Our job is to view and scrutinise and revise
:14:10. > :14:15.legislation, to challenge the government. But not to block it?
:14:16. > :14:19.Where is your mandate to block legislation and actually tried to
:14:20. > :14:24.kill it off altogether? You cannot amend, as you know, with statutory
:14:25. > :14:29.instrument, so we are asked to approve or not approve. I recommend
:14:30. > :14:32.that we do not approve this. We have 3 million people on tax credits you
:14:33. > :14:37.are going to be just clobbered by this. You have heard the numbers. It
:14:38. > :14:42.is very real. The mitigations, which are far from being complete, they
:14:43. > :14:47.come in later. We have families who are going to have to look at feeding
:14:48. > :14:51.the kids cereal for dinner, turning the heating. This is really serious
:14:52. > :14:54.and we have to stand up those people. That is one of the jobs of
:14:55. > :14:59.the House of Lords. Are doing our job. You say that, but you mentioned
:15:00. > :15:02.that the Liberal Democrats fighting an unelected House of Lords for
:15:03. > :15:05.years and now you are using the leave at your disposal to block the
:15:06. > :15:06.will of the elected government. There is a hypocrisy there, isn't
:15:07. > :15:14.there? If the other parties refuse to
:15:15. > :15:18.reform, we must work with what we have got, and what we have got is
:15:19. > :15:23.what we are going to use. It is absolutely crucial that we do. This
:15:24. > :15:26.is not a constitutional SU. The Conservatives have lost the issue on
:15:27. > :15:30.tax credits, so they are fairly desperately trying to turn it into a
:15:31. > :15:33.constitutional issue, because they think they can have a better
:15:34. > :15:37.conversation there than they can when you actually talk about the
:15:38. > :15:44.realities of the tax credit problem. This is a bill. If we can't act in
:15:45. > :15:47.the House of Lords on bills that have some money consequences, there
:15:48. > :15:49.would be almost nothing at all we could ever look at, we could ever
:15:50. > :15:53.scrutinise, we could ever revise and we could ever challenge. It really
:15:54. > :15:57.is important to recognise this is a welfare measure. If you take that as
:15:58. > :16:03.a welfare measure, then it does give you some ground to oppose, but
:16:04. > :16:07.opposing rather than blocking. You say the only option open to you is
:16:08. > :16:11.to kill it off, this statutory instrument, but you could join with
:16:12. > :16:15.Labour. They are working to delay and asking the government to review,
:16:16. > :16:20.so there is an alternative. The fatal measure we have brought in is
:16:21. > :16:23.much cleaner, simpler. It doesn't stop the government acting, it says
:16:24. > :16:26.to the government you can't do exactly this, go away and think
:16:27. > :16:29.about it, and it sounds like that is finally persuading this government
:16:30. > :16:34.that has been refusing to even listen. I hope very much that it is
:16:35. > :16:39.listening and thinking now it is facing this action in the House of
:16:40. > :16:41.Lords. But it is a clean measure and then the government can go away,
:16:42. > :16:46.think again and come back with something new. We are not partisan
:16:47. > :16:51.on this. If that isn't sustained, as the cleanest way to do it, then we
:16:52. > :16:57.will obviously support the Labour motion for delay. Susan Kramer, bear
:16:58. > :17:01.with us, she has a point, this is a welfare measure, not a strictly
:17:02. > :17:04.money measure, which is how the Conservatives are trying to justify
:17:05. > :17:08.that the Lords should just accept it, or revise it, but basically
:17:09. > :17:12.approve it. It is a welfare measure, it is affecting people on welfare,
:17:13. > :17:19.and they then do have a right to kill it off. It is a money measure,
:17:20. > :17:22.in that it is ?4.4 billion that is part of the money we are spending
:17:23. > :17:28.more than we are bringing in as a country. Whilst we are trying to
:17:29. > :17:30.change and reduce the deficit and ultimately reduce debt, these are
:17:31. > :17:33.the sort of measures that we have got to bring in, financial measures,
:17:34. > :17:40.we have got to bring into reverse this. Lord Butler himself, one of
:17:41. > :17:44.the former cabinet secretary sits with Ernest Kramer in the House of
:17:45. > :17:48.Lords, said this is an unprecedented measure. A financial instrument that
:17:49. > :17:51.the Lords should not be rejecting in this way. They will argue that it
:17:52. > :17:55.wasn't in your manifesto, and the government has made it very clear
:17:56. > :18:00.that what was in the manifesto was a commitment to cut welfare by ?12
:18:01. > :18:04.billion. Do you regret now not stating before the election where it
:18:05. > :18:08.might have come from, particularly since the Prime Minister indicated
:18:09. > :18:11.it wouldn't be from tax credits? We have given a lot of discussion
:18:12. > :18:15.throughout the election campaign on welfare reform, and we have had a
:18:16. > :18:19.lot of time since the election to talk about this as well. There are a
:18:20. > :18:22.number of instruments available to the House of Lords, of which the
:18:23. > :18:26.bishops have come up with a motion of regret, I believe it is called.
:18:27. > :18:30.There are plenty of other options available. However, I would like to
:18:31. > :18:34.see this go through uninterrupted by the House of Lords, and then George
:18:35. > :18:37.Osborne will discuss the fact that he is in listening mode, if you want
:18:38. > :18:40.to make your case, continue making the case and then do it at that
:18:41. > :18:44.point rather than overstepping the mark constitutionally. The other
:18:45. > :18:48.thing, Susan Kramer, this is the third cut the tax credits over the
:18:49. > :18:53.last five years. Not the first one. The other two came when your party
:18:54. > :18:57.was in coalition. We did not hear any outrage from Lib Dem peers then.
:18:58. > :19:00.We very much protected those who were among the most probable, that
:19:01. > :19:05.was a very important role people played in the coalition. People have
:19:06. > :19:09.been shocked, they didn't see this coming, this very big blow to people
:19:10. > :19:12.who are the working poor, and that is because we protected them while
:19:13. > :19:17.we had a say in government. They are being exposed now. It is crucial we
:19:18. > :19:22.protect them in that is frankly a welfare measure, and we need to
:19:23. > :19:26.stand up today and do that. I find that startling, I am glad the Lib
:19:27. > :19:31.Dems have found their conscience after five years of nodding and
:19:32. > :19:34.supporting through welfare cuts. I'm disappointed the Tories have tried
:19:35. > :19:37.to rush this through, when we could have had it in primary legislation
:19:38. > :19:41.and have a much better debate. I am glad this we have put down an
:19:42. > :19:44.amendment to give George Osborne time again to listen to the very
:19:45. > :19:47.strong views from his backbenchers, and across both houses, to say this
:19:48. > :19:52.is not right. This is hitting the people who need our support the most
:19:53. > :19:57.and we need to think again. John McDonnell said if there is a
:19:58. > :19:59.reversal, a complete reversal, which is highly unlikely, by George
:20:00. > :20:05.Osborne, then he promises him personally and publicly he would not
:20:06. > :20:09.attack him for it. Really? Labour is never going to mention it again? We
:20:10. > :20:16.will be delighted, because all I can think is the constituents back home
:20:17. > :20:18.who will be decimated by this. I am quite happy to sit quietly if he
:20:19. > :20:24.does that. Let's wait and see. The question for today is which
:20:25. > :20:28.of these parliamentarians has turned down an invitation to appear
:20:29. > :20:30.on this year's At the end of the show Anna and Paul
:20:31. > :20:51.will give us the correct answer. You haven't been asked, then?
:20:52. > :20:52.Definitely not. A sort of sigh of relief there.
:20:53. > :20:56.So we know the vote on tax credits will be causing a stir today, but
:20:57. > :20:58.there are plenty of other stories bubbling under here at Westminster.
:20:59. > :21:01.In a moment, we'll speak to two journalists who
:21:02. > :21:03.know how to add more froth to their stories than a barista
:21:04. > :21:12.But first, let's take a look at some of the big events which will
:21:13. > :21:15.be keeping MPs in the building behind them busy this week.
:21:16. > :21:18.Today, MPs vote on the final version of the Finance Bill, which enshrines
:21:19. > :21:20.into law the measures outlined in the 2015 summer budget.
:21:21. > :21:25.On Tuesday, the Commons takes its final vote on the Welfare Reform
:21:26. > :21:30.and Work Bill, which provides for significant changes to welfare
:21:31. > :21:33.benefits, tax credits, and social housing levels - amounting to around
:21:34. > :21:36.70% of the government's planned ?12 billion welfare cuts.
:21:37. > :21:42.On Wednesday it's the latest edition of Prime Minister's Questions.
:21:43. > :21:45.David Cameron's on a trip to Iceland that day, so squaring off
:21:46. > :21:47.at the despatch boxes in their PMQs debuts will be Foreign Secretary
:21:48. > :21:51.Philip Hammond and Shadow First Secretary of State Angela Eagle.
:21:52. > :21:54.Later on Wednesday Labour are staging an opposition day debate
:21:55. > :21:56.in the Commons to highlight controversy over planned changes to
:21:57. > :22:03.On Thursday, we'll be talking about tax credits again, as MPs
:22:04. > :22:06.debate a motion tabled by Labour's Frank Field- he's the chairman
:22:07. > :22:09.of the Work and Pensions committee - calling on George Osborne to
:22:10. > :22:16.And on Friday, the Scottish Labour Party meet in Perth
:22:17. > :22:19.for the first day of their annual conference, with Jeremy Corbyn set
:22:20. > :22:28.We're joined now by Lucy Fisher from the Times and Jim Waterson
:22:29. > :22:37.Well, both of you, a busy week in Parliament, as it often is, but
:22:38. > :22:40.let's talk about some other issues that have been discussed over the
:22:41. > :22:45.weekend and will impact the week ahead. Looking at deselection. The
:22:46. > :22:49.story over the weekend, reassurances from the Shadow Chancellor John
:22:50. > :22:53.McDonnell and moderate MPs worried about deselection, left-wing
:22:54. > :22:57.activists he says will not be able to force them out. Will that
:22:58. > :23:04.reassure you enough? I don't think it will. Head of the PLP committee
:23:05. > :23:09.gave a reassurance, John McDonnell, yesterday gave a reassurance, but it
:23:10. > :23:12.is not really up to the central party if these spin off local
:23:13. > :23:16.groups, local Labour parties have influxes of large number of members
:23:17. > :23:20.who are very far left, then it is not really up to the Central command
:23:21. > :23:26.to say what they cannot can't do when selection comes up. What about
:23:27. > :23:29.Frank Field's intervention, Jim Watterson? He has borne such a move
:23:30. > :23:33.would be met with a mass rebellion within the party, with MPs backing
:23:34. > :23:37.their ousted colleagues in by-elections in defiance of party
:23:38. > :23:42.rules. It all sounds like party discipline is crumbling here. If you
:23:43. > :23:45.were threatened with being removed by your job from a few people who
:23:46. > :23:48.had turned up late in the day, you might feel unhappy but that is what
:23:49. > :23:51.MPs are having to deal with. If you have got these new members coming
:23:52. > :23:57.in, then the membership is programming and the MPs for the hole
:23:58. > :24:00.are not, then it is quite hard to replicate what is going on because
:24:01. > :24:05.the membership really do want pro carbon candidates. We spoke to
:24:06. > :24:09.Momentum, and what they have said as they are not going to back row
:24:10. > :24:13.selections but if a candidate steps down, if an MP is going to move on,
:24:14. > :24:16.they would expect to play an active role in choosing a new candidate
:24:17. > :24:18.because they frankly make up the vast majority of the people who
:24:19. > :24:25.would have a say in such matters now. Should moderate Labour MPs,
:24:26. > :24:33.those who don't necessarily support Jeremy Corbyn, just fall into line
:24:34. > :24:38.and support their party's selection? This is greatly exaggerated. My
:24:39. > :24:42.membership has doubled in my constituency and I welcome that. I
:24:43. > :24:45.have tried to meet and speak to as many of those members as possible
:24:46. > :24:48.and the idea that they are all somehow slaves to Jeremy Corbyn and
:24:49. > :24:51.can't bear the Labour Party as it is an throw out everything we stood
:24:52. > :24:56.for, a lot of them have got involved for the first time because suddenly,
:24:57. > :24:59.they had been Labour supporters and had Labour values for all of their
:25:00. > :25:02.lives but now there was an opportunity to engage. So why are
:25:03. > :25:06.they worried, Frank Field supporting up and saying he was support any of
:25:07. > :25:12.his colleagues being ousted in this way, they are loaded is going on.
:25:13. > :25:16.People need to calm down. We are way out of an election at the moment, we
:25:17. > :25:19.have a job to represent our constituents and stand up to this
:25:20. > :25:23.government. At the end of the day we have always been a broad church. My
:25:24. > :25:27.plea is for respect on all sides of the parties. The tradition on the
:25:28. > :25:30.right is just as valid as the tradition on the left, no 1's values
:25:31. > :25:34.are any more holy than anyone else's in the party. We need to win
:25:35. > :25:38.in 2020 because there is nothing you can do about tax credits or
:25:39. > :25:43.steelwork shutting down if you are in opposition. Let's just continue
:25:44. > :25:48.with this a little bit longer. Simon Danczuk, who would consume himself a
:25:49. > :25:52.moderate, -- consider himself a moderate, perhaps on the right of
:25:53. > :25:56.the Labour Party, has talked about himself being a stalking horse in
:25:57. > :26:00.next May's elections, how likely do you think that will be? I think it
:26:01. > :26:04.will be very unlikely. The problem is for those moderate MPs talking
:26:05. > :26:09.about a possible coup, even now, before Christmas or after May, if
:26:10. > :26:14.the local Welsh, Scottish elections have a poor result for Labour. I
:26:15. > :26:20.can't really say anything to the fact that most should the party
:26:21. > :26:25.backs Jeremy Corbyn. He does have this overwhelming mandate, so I
:26:26. > :26:30.think it would be very unlikely that any Labour MPs would back Simon
:26:31. > :26:32.Danczuk to make that move. Just finally on Chilcott, it has been
:26:33. > :26:37.reported we will get the timings of that report at the end of the week.
:26:38. > :26:41.Are you excited? Given that Chilcott was commissioned in 2009, there will
:26:42. > :26:45.now be children in their second or 30 at school who were not even born
:26:46. > :26:49.when it started. I will believe it when I see it, but we have already
:26:50. > :26:53.had Tony Blair out doing his pre-briefing on this, and the one
:26:54. > :26:56.thing I can be certain of is that almost no one will be happy with
:26:57. > :26:57.what it concludes. Yes, you can almost rely on that, can't you?
:26:58. > :27:00.Thank you to both of. Now,
:27:01. > :27:01.who remembers the former Liberal He was once a regular
:27:02. > :27:05.on our screens, but the party's former Treasury spokesman quit
:27:06. > :27:08.the Lib Dems back in 2014 after it emerged he had commissioned
:27:09. > :27:11.polls suggesting the party would be He predicted it was heading for a
:27:12. > :27:15."disaster" unless it changed leader. But he didn't leave
:27:16. > :27:17.off politics altogether. Before
:27:18. > :27:21.the general election it was reported that he had donated ?600,000 to 30
:27:22. > :27:24.Labour and 15 left-of-centre Lib Dem election candidates,
:27:25. > :27:26.which he described as "doing his bit to save our country from a
:27:27. > :27:33.Tory government cringing to Ukip". Well, the money didn't do the trick
:27:34. > :27:36.for most of those candidates. Only six of the 45 made it
:27:37. > :27:40.into the Commons. The peer has now announced he is
:27:41. > :27:43.returning to the House of Lords as a non-affiliated peer, and he's
:27:44. > :27:58.said he's coming back to campaign Welcome back. Long time no see. The
:27:59. > :28:02.private polling commissioned by you saying the Lib Dems were walking to
:28:03. > :28:07.electoral oblivion under Nick Clegg's leadership ten at the
:28:08. > :28:11.correct, so do you feel vindicated? I told you so is never a good look,
:28:12. > :28:16.and I must say the polls that I commissioned at that time did turn
:28:17. > :28:27.out to be pretty well spot on. I see Anatoly from Redcar, the Paul Blair
:28:28. > :28:32.said that Labour was going to win Turley. The polls are that Nick
:28:33. > :28:35.Clegg was just going to lose, he only just one but only by squeezing
:28:36. > :28:39.the Tory vote but that is all history now. I felt the evidence was
:28:40. > :28:43.very strong that the Lib Dems would save more seats, get more votes and
:28:44. > :28:48.do better if there had been a change of leader to Vince Cable, and I'm
:28:49. > :28:53.sorry that the party did not take my view. I don't believe we would have
:28:54. > :29:01.an overall Tory majority today, I don't think we could have done as
:29:02. > :29:05.badly. The four polls in the seats that I commissioned got the results
:29:06. > :29:08.almost dead on with Nick Clegg as the leader, and they showed that
:29:09. > :29:13.under Vince Cable the Lib Dems would have done between five and 10%
:29:14. > :29:17.better. So I think there is a good chance, Paul you are the MP for
:29:18. > :29:20.Sutton and Cheam, you beat Paul Bairstow, there is a good chance
:29:21. > :29:24.Paul Bairstow would be sitting here instead of you. We can't be sure.
:29:25. > :29:30.But the results were disastrous and studied his history now. Do you
:29:31. > :29:33.regret commissioning the research, because in the end you were accused
:29:34. > :29:38.of an attempted coup and you had to resign from the party? I didn't have
:29:39. > :29:41.to resign, didn't want to carry on if we were heading for disaster and
:29:42. > :29:45.I felt I wanted a break anyway. No, I don't regret it at all, indeed
:29:46. > :29:50.Paul Bairstow was very nice to me on the Tubes the other day, I won't say
:29:51. > :29:53.exactly what his head, but many Lib Dems probably regret that they did
:29:54. > :29:58.not stand up more firmly. That is history. I am just coming back now,
:29:59. > :30:02.I was closely involved in the first European referendum when it came in
:30:03. > :30:05.in 1975, working for Rod Jenkins at the time, and for Rod Jenkins at the
:30:06. > :30:12.time, and 40 referendum go the wrong way, so if I can help that I will.
:30:13. > :30:16.On that line about a Progressive Alliance, what you wanted to create
:30:17. > :30:19.when you gave the money to Labour candidates, Lib Dems and Caroline
:30:20. > :30:21.Lucas, but only six of the 45 made it to the Commons, was it a waste of
:30:22. > :30:30.money? I don't think it was, and I will
:30:31. > :30:35.tell you why. We stopped Ukip winning, and I was especially keen
:30:36. > :30:43.to stop them winning Boruc, which was their top target and I was
:30:44. > :30:47.helping Polly Billington. -- Thurrock. I was helping out in
:30:48. > :30:52.Thanet, the candour that there was a good third. If Labour had
:30:53. > :30:54.collapsed, Nigel Farage might have collapsed. Although the result was
:30:55. > :31:00.disappointing, it was important we stopped Ukip breaking through. Is
:31:01. > :31:06.Tim Farren the man to revive the Lib Dems? I don't want to get into the
:31:07. > :31:10.Lib Dems, I am nonparty. I am a social democrat and they are the
:31:11. > :31:14.same views I have had for 30 or 40 years. Other parties do fluctuate a
:31:15. > :31:19.lot. I wish Anna and the other Labour Party moderates well in
:31:20. > :31:23.reclaiming the party from the far left, but when I was in labour for
:31:24. > :31:26.15 years we spent a lot of time fighting people like Jeremy Corbyn
:31:27. > :31:30.and John McDonnell, and I'm afraid they are not going to get elected
:31:31. > :31:34.unless moderates reassert themselves, but it's a difficult
:31:35. > :31:39.situation at the moment. I shall let Anna comeback in on that. I agree. I
:31:40. > :31:43.am a moderate, no denying that. But we have been a broad church and
:31:44. > :31:46.Jeremy won with an overwhelming mandate and he spoke to something
:31:47. > :31:50.that people wanted. There are new people coming through. A lot of
:31:51. > :31:53.people who were involved 30 years ago who may not for me put the
:31:54. > :31:57.Labour Party values ahead of particularly strong views they have,
:31:58. > :32:01.but the priority for me is making sure we look at what the British
:32:02. > :32:05.public one. The last time I stood firm parliament was in 1983 after we
:32:06. > :32:08.founded the SDP and Labour were standing as a broad church under
:32:09. > :32:13.Michael foot and they were hammered, and I think that will happen again.
:32:14. > :32:16.I wish you luck, and I hope you reassert yourself over the next few
:32:17. > :32:19.years. You have come back to campaign on Europe in the
:32:20. > :32:24.referendum. What about the tax credits row? It is rather critical
:32:25. > :32:29.for peers like yourself, you are back in the Lords, nonparty. What
:32:30. > :32:32.will you do? There are a lot of coincidences in life. I didn't know
:32:33. > :32:36.the vote was coming up and I wanted to come back and take my seat before
:32:37. > :32:40.the committee stage of the Europe bill. Now, as it happens, I've come
:32:41. > :32:45.into the middle of this. I will be voting tonight and I will be voting
:32:46. > :32:51.for the motion to kill or block the tax credits. I am voting for the
:32:52. > :32:57.Liberal Democrats and the Labour one. There is a constitutional issue
:32:58. > :33:01.here. I do find it awkward that the Lords have to take a view on this
:33:02. > :33:03.because the Lords should have been reformed and elected long ago. In
:33:04. > :33:08.the last Parliament we fought hard for it and there was a vote and then
:33:09. > :33:12.the Conservatives bottled out. It is awkward. It is a tricky thing to
:33:13. > :33:17.vote on. But I do think, particularly given the fact that the
:33:18. > :33:23.constitutional doctrine, in a manifesto, is quite clearly taking
:33:24. > :33:26.away money from working people was not in the Tory manifesto and it was
:33:27. > :33:29.categorically denied by David Cameron so it's reasonable to ask
:33:30. > :33:33.astute make the Commons think again. That is what I will ask for.
:33:34. > :33:38.Are you still friends with Vince Cable? Very much so. He's coming for
:33:39. > :33:45.supper and we are going skiing again. We have always been friends,
:33:46. > :33:48.but there had to be a slight diplomatic cooling after what
:33:49. > :33:49.happened with Nick Clegg. But we are very good friends and we always have
:33:50. > :33:52.been. Thank you. Now,
:33:53. > :33:54.he was re-elected to the big chair at the start of this Parliament,
:33:55. > :33:57.but has something bitten Speaker He's never been shy of telling Mps
:33:58. > :34:02.when he thinks they've stepped out of line in the Commons, but lately
:34:03. > :34:05.he's also had a thing or two to say We asked Giles to find
:34:06. > :34:18.out what was going on. He waited a long time for the
:34:19. > :34:22.position to arrive but he has been in the chair a good while, and
:34:23. > :34:25.though sometimes his wife has garnered the headlines more than
:34:26. > :34:31.him, Speaker John Bercow is no shrinking violet. The Right
:34:32. > :34:39.honourable gentleman has no business scurrying out of the chamber.
:34:40. > :34:43.Order! The reaction of some MPs to that was best expressed like this.
:34:44. > :34:51.What do you think of the show so far? Rubbish! Once a boy on
:34:52. > :34:54.crackerjack, the shouting came from the audience, but now he's in charge
:34:55. > :35:01.of running the Parliamentary show, he takes on all comers. The word
:35:02. > :35:08.conman is frankly unparliamentary. Order! The Prime Minister is a man
:35:09. > :35:13.of great versatility in the use of language, and it is a bit below the
:35:14. > :35:17.level. Be quiet. If you can't be quiet, get out. You are adding
:35:18. > :35:21.nothing is abstracting a lot. It is rude, stupid and pompous and it
:35:22. > :35:26.needs to stop. What he should not do is fail to communicate with me in
:35:27. > :35:31.advance, ignore the convention and greatly exceed his allotted time. It
:35:32. > :35:36.is, I'm afraid, discourteous and incompetent and it must happen
:35:37. > :35:43.again. There is a badge of honour and it is called BBB. We call it
:35:44. > :35:49.bashed by Burke oh, and it became a badge of honour -- bashed by Bercow.
:35:50. > :35:56.Sometimes you have a bad day and maybe in John's case, he's had a few
:35:57. > :36:03.by the looks of it. They have a right to be deeply insulted but they
:36:04. > :36:06.tend to be trivial figures and the capacity to take larger French is
:36:07. > :36:12.often a sign of triviality. Can I say to the Prime Minister's PPS, his
:36:13. > :36:16.role is to nod his head in the appropriate places, and to fetch and
:36:17. > :36:23.carry notes. No noise required. But the speaker likes to make some
:36:24. > :36:28.noise, even offering opinion on HS2. It is undesirable and an unnecessary
:36:29. > :36:33.project. Or even human rights to the Chinese president. No country can
:36:34. > :36:36.exist in isolation, from all matters, from international law to
:36:37. > :36:41.individual liberty. For his supporters, being forthright is no
:36:42. > :36:46.bar to delivery. He is one of the best speakers in modern times, in my
:36:47. > :36:50.opinion, because he keeps it moving along and he holds the executive to
:36:51. > :36:53.account and if there is a minister who has questions to answer, he will
:36:54. > :36:59.be at the dispatch box answering them. The fact that he is a
:37:00. > :37:00.naturally rude man doesn't matter. Well, we're joined now by
:37:01. > :37:11.the journalist Bobby Friedman, he's are -- is he in a bad mood? He is
:37:12. > :37:13.always in a bad mood, really. You can't charge him with
:37:14. > :37:18.inconsistency, then. There has been a flare-up over the last few weeks
:37:19. > :37:24.but you see these from time to time and he tends to get a bit spiffy
:37:25. > :37:31.with people and he does have quite a temper. You see it coming out from
:37:32. > :37:35.time to time, and you see it coming out with Tory MPs, maybe not a
:37:36. > :37:41.surprise. But that is what you get with John Bercow. What is driving
:37:42. > :37:47.that, if you yourself admit that it is directed at Tory MPs, rightly or
:37:48. > :37:51.wrongly? Is it revenge? I think it is revenge and there is a real
:37:52. > :37:55.personal hatred here. A lot of Tory MPs would say that John Bercow is
:37:56. > :38:00.quite a good speaker. It is him personally do they do not like. It
:38:01. > :38:05.is a mutual feeling. John Bercow and David Cameron do not like each other
:38:06. > :38:08.at all. I cannot repeat some of the words used by either side to
:38:09. > :38:13.describe each other on TV at this time of day. But that is the general
:38:14. > :38:18.sense you get with that relationship, and it's not good. It
:38:19. > :38:24.is, rather than him in the role, it is that personal amity. That does
:38:25. > :38:27.seem to be displayed on occasion -- Eminem T. Do you think the
:38:28. > :38:32.government will do anything about it. They tried at the end of the
:38:33. > :38:38.last Parliamentary session and it rather backfired. It did backfire.
:38:39. > :38:42.They got quite close. 200 MPs voted effectively to try and get rid of
:38:43. > :38:48.John Bercow. It would have ended up with his removal, and that was the
:38:49. > :38:50.plan. Not immediately, but what John Bercow has is that he's more
:38:51. > :38:53.vulnerable all the time, because David Cameron would like to get rid
:38:54. > :38:58.of him. Michael Gove would probably like to get rid of him. There is
:38:59. > :39:02.this underlying current, especially in the Conservative Party, wanting
:39:03. > :39:06.to unseat him. It didn't work before the election, but it was
:39:07. > :39:08.interesting. Back in May, we went into an election that was very
:39:09. > :39:12.uncertain and the fact the Conservative Party were prepared
:39:13. > :39:15.spend the last day parliament trying to get rid of him when they had this
:39:16. > :39:19.big campaign to fight shows the strength of feeling -- last day of
:39:20. > :39:22.Parliament. I'm sure there will be times in the future when it is the
:39:23. > :39:29.moment is right, they will try and do it. He is a Marmite character.
:39:30. > :39:33.Like all loathe him? Life is too short to loathe people, but many
:39:34. > :39:37.people in the Tory party think it is a badge of honour to be torn off a
:39:38. > :39:41.strip by the speaker. I've been on his good side. I haven't seen that
:39:42. > :39:49.Crackerjack footage before. It's a shame that the house does not sit on
:39:50. > :39:53.Friday at 525. We heard in the film that he has been a very progressive
:39:54. > :39:58.speaker and has encouraged members to stand up, get their questions in.
:39:59. > :40:02.He has extended question Time on Wednesday to incorporate that. Has
:40:03. > :40:06.he been a good thing? I'm a fan of his. He has made Parliament more
:40:07. > :40:10.open and accessible for people. Getting schools and young people
:40:11. > :40:13.involved in Parliament. He's also made it more family friendly in
:40:14. > :40:18.terms of the working hours. I am a big fan. He is right to hold the
:40:19. > :40:22.government to account. He has given us plenty of opportunities. I find
:40:23. > :40:26.it frustrating as a new MP that it's a struggle to get your voice heard.
:40:27. > :40:30.There are 650 bus and everyone is trying to battle to bring the voice
:40:31. > :40:34.of their constituency to the chamber -- 650 of us. Would you be as big
:40:35. > :40:42.fan if he'd talk to you the same way as savage -- Sajid Javid? That did
:40:43. > :40:48.seem to overstep the mark in many people's mind. Maybe I am jaded on
:40:49. > :40:54.this position because my own view and how he has letters down over the
:40:55. > :40:57.steel issue. -- let us down. He is right to hold as academy has to be
:40:58. > :41:03.firm sometimes. He is a good referee. Nobody necessarily likes
:41:04. > :41:06.one. -- he is right to hold us to account. There will always be
:41:07. > :41:10.different views on how you handle debates in the House of Commons.
:41:11. > :41:14.What about his role in the recent visit of the President of China?
:41:15. > :41:18.There were thinly veiled criticisms directed at the Chinese president,
:41:19. > :41:23.rightly or wrongly. Is it the role of the speaker to do that? I'm not
:41:24. > :41:27.sure it is. In the last few weeks we have seen a few steps from John
:41:28. > :41:33.Bercow trying to move out of the impartiality. On schools funding, he
:41:34. > :41:37.signed a letter. That was quite a substantial move. HS2, and we saw
:41:38. > :41:42.the clip of him talking about it, and if you are the MP for
:41:43. > :41:46.Buckinghamshire. I think that is understandable because it is a
:41:47. > :41:49.constituency issue. On school funding, that is straying. But John
:41:50. > :41:54.Bercow likes the rough-and-tumble politics and I think he has his
:41:55. > :41:58.sights fixed, and he said he would stand down by 2019, and I'm not sure
:41:59. > :42:05.if he will, but as we get towards their evil be like a US president in
:42:06. > :42:12.the last few years -- as we get to wards there he will be like. Do you
:42:13. > :42:16.think he has strayed too far, such as signing up with the Tory MPs for
:42:17. > :42:21.rewriting the funding for schools? With the China situation he does
:42:22. > :42:28.stray into causing a diplomatic incident every now and again. Is
:42:29. > :42:32.that wrong? Possibly. I commend him for his work on human rights, as my
:42:33. > :42:37.father was born in Burma, and he has a long history of fighting for human
:42:38. > :42:44.rights over there. You can strayed, but the work he does the fact he
:42:45. > :42:46.highlights so many issues is no thing. Thank you.
:42:47. > :42:48.Now, hauliers have designated this as "National Lorry Week".
:42:49. > :42:50.But they're warning that the escalating migrant crisis
:42:51. > :42:52.in Calais is preventing the movement of goods, and threatening
:42:53. > :43:02.There are now an estimated 7,000 migrants camped in Northern France,
:43:03. > :43:05.and at least 16 have died in or near the Channel Tunnel since the
:43:06. > :43:09.summer, as they become increasingly desperate to get into the UK.
:43:10. > :43:12.The Road Haulage Association says the industry is suffering because
:43:13. > :43:17.of intimidation of drivers and attacks on vehicles by migrants,
:43:18. > :43:21.and says many smaller family-run firms could be put out of business.
:43:22. > :43:24.Well, we can speak now to the Labour MP Rob Flello, he's chairman
:43:25. > :43:32.of the all-party parliamentary group on freight transport.
:43:33. > :43:39.Welcome to the Daily Politics. How would you describe the situation in
:43:40. > :43:42.Calais? The situation in Calais is really desperate. If you're a
:43:43. > :43:48.professional driver trying to get either into the UK or out of the UK,
:43:49. > :43:51.you face intimidation and threats, people brandishing knives, damaging
:43:52. > :43:55.your vehicle. Breaking into your vehicle. It's really serious at the
:43:56. > :43:59.moment. It has been escalating and not getting better over recent weeks
:44:00. > :44:01.and months. Are there enough measures that the government have
:44:02. > :44:07.announced to protect lorry drivers with a secure waiting area? Will
:44:08. > :44:12.that change the situation dramatically? Not at all. It is
:44:13. > :44:16.farcical, unfortunately. There are supposedly secure waiting areas at
:44:17. > :44:21.the moment and I was hearing from one man on Thursday night, at three
:44:22. > :44:25.a.m., they were in a secure area, supposedly secure area. There were
:44:26. > :44:29.no police to be seen or border Force agents, and there were hundreds and
:44:30. > :44:33.hundreds of refugees threatening them with knives, breaking into
:44:34. > :44:39.vehicles, stowing away, and every time that he and others tried to
:44:40. > :44:42.raise this with the Calais port security or with the border Force
:44:43. > :44:45.themselves, they were told it was either not in their jurisdiction
:44:46. > :44:51.area or they could not help. There was no sign of any police. This is
:44:52. > :44:54.happening night after night. No prospect of the situation improving
:44:55. > :44:58.them, unless serious measures are taken. What do you propose the
:44:59. > :45:02.government does? The government needs to stepping quickly and take
:45:03. > :45:07.urgent action, because we cannot carry on like this but what? We need
:45:08. > :45:12.to have more police presence but what we really need is places like
:45:13. > :45:15.the jungle to have those applying for refugee status have their
:45:16. > :45:19.applications processed more quickly, get that dealt with really quickly.
:45:20. > :45:22.Those who are entitled to refugee status should be granted asylum and
:45:23. > :45:26.helped on, those who aren't should be taken back to the country they
:45:27. > :45:29.are from and let's get rid of the jungle and resolve the problem once
:45:30. > :45:35.and for all rather than play at it. That is what the government, both
:45:36. > :45:38.British and French, are doing. Isn't that the problem, it needs
:45:39. > :45:41.cooperation on both sides that has not been in evidence over the last
:45:42. > :45:46.few years? This problem has been going on for years, really. It's got
:45:47. > :45:49.worse recently, and successive governments have turned a blind eye
:45:50. > :45:51.to it. Is there now a feeling that the camps will be the jungle and
:45:52. > :46:01.will be there permanently? The jungle and other camps cannot be
:46:02. > :46:05.there permanently. We have something like 2.3 million tracks going out of
:46:06. > :46:09.the port of Dover and Eurotunnel, about 90% of UK imports and exports
:46:10. > :46:13.going through. That will increase as we run up to Christmas, and at the
:46:14. > :46:16.same time refugees will become more and more desperate as their living
:46:17. > :46:21.conditions deteriorate and they're desperate to get into the UK. It has
:46:22. > :46:26.certainly been escalating over recent years. It has got far worse
:46:27. > :46:30.over recent months, and if action is not taken, for example the 13 tragic
:46:31. > :46:33.deaths of migrants in the tunnel will just get worse and the knock-on
:46:34. > :46:38.effect not just of their families but of the drivers of those trains,
:46:39. > :46:41.the situation with Hoey was being threatened will get worse, and a lot
:46:42. > :46:48.of drivers are simple as saying we have had enough, we can't take this
:46:49. > :46:53.level of threat and an timid Asian -- intimidation. They will have a
:46:54. > :46:58.real impact. Over ?1 billion already, the impact on the UK
:46:59. > :47:02.economy. Do you accept that a fuel of the rulers are in league with
:47:03. > :47:07.some of these people smugglers? There are fines but probably not
:47:08. > :47:12.enough to counter it. There are fines, but I am sure there will be a
:47:13. > :47:15.very tiny number of hauliers that are in cahoots with smugglers, but
:47:16. > :47:21.actually the vast majority don't want to believe curling up on the
:47:22. > :47:24.rain -- on the road because someone has lit a fire or worse still is
:47:25. > :47:26.lying on the road and while they are distracted like that, the locks are
:47:27. > :47:30.broken on the back of the vehicle and people are getting on board, and
:47:31. > :47:35.drivers are having to take the law into their own hands and gather
:47:36. > :47:38.together to try and, in groups, get people who are smuggled onto the
:47:39. > :47:41.back of their vehicles out. Again, going back to the situation on
:47:42. > :47:45.Thursday night, where driver after driver was working together to
:47:46. > :47:48.off-load people in the back of their vehicles, and some of whom were
:47:49. > :47:53.brandishing knives, that can't happen, that can't be allowed to
:47:54. > :47:56.happen. Are ministers listening? I don't think they are, they are
:47:57. > :48:01.paying lip service to this problem but hoping that the bad weather will
:48:02. > :48:05.make the programme -- problem go away, but it won't, it will make it
:48:06. > :48:10.worse, in terms of how more desperate the refugees will become.
:48:11. > :48:12.Now, you might have thought the party
:48:13. > :48:14.conference season had ended some time ago, but you'd be mistaken.
:48:15. > :48:17.Over the weekend Plaid Cymru held their autumn meeting in Aberystwyth.
:48:18. > :48:19.Here's their leader, Leanne Wood, making her pitch.
:48:20. > :48:32.I ask people in all communities in this country, take another look at
:48:33. > :48:36.Plaid Cymru. We have listened. We know you want a party that will lead
:48:37. > :48:40.on those issues that matter most to you. Your family, your hospital,
:48:41. > :48:46.your school, your workplace and your community. The party of Wales is far
:48:47. > :48:55.more interested in people than in processors. We have the ideas, the
:48:56. > :48:58.personnel and the vision to deliver. Leanne Wood joins us now from the
:48:59. > :49:05.Welsh assembly in Cardiff. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. You were
:49:06. > :49:08.fourth in Wales in terms of vote share in the May general elections,
:49:09. > :49:14.you got a smaller share of the vote than Ukip. How do you explain that
:49:15. > :49:17.result? Westminster elections have traditionally been more difficult
:49:18. > :49:23.for Plaid Cymru than elections to a National Assembly and we have those
:49:24. > :49:28.next May. I very much hope that our showing will be different next May.
:49:29. > :49:32.In every election we have had to date, we have done better in
:49:33. > :49:36.elections to our national institution, and what we have in
:49:37. > :49:42.Wales is by next May, we will have had 17 years of a Labour government,
:49:43. > :49:46.unbroken rule, and they have presided over decline in our
:49:47. > :49:50.economy, and a pretty poor showing in terms of outcomes, in terms of
:49:51. > :49:55.health and education, so it is time now for fresh thinking and a new
:49:56. > :49:59.approach, and it is time for a Plaid Cymru government after next May. You
:50:00. > :50:02.are criticising Labour and their mismanagement of things like public
:50:03. > :50:06.services, but what makes you think that votes that may stray from
:50:07. > :50:11.Labour will go to Plaid Cymru? They will go to the Tories and Ukip.
:50:12. > :50:15.Well, we have to put the case to people and make sure they understand
:50:16. > :50:19.that we have been working very hard in coming up with solutions to the
:50:20. > :50:23.problem that people have identified in public services, but it is up to
:50:24. > :50:27.us now to make sure that we inform people as to what it is that we want
:50:28. > :50:31.to do, and that is why it one of my messages to the party faithful this
:50:32. > :50:34.weekend in our conference in Aberystwyth was that we had to get
:50:35. > :50:38.out there now and have as many conversations in as many streets and
:50:39. > :50:44.communities as possible, up and down the country, before next May. There
:50:45. > :50:48.is no subject for hard work. Victory will not land on our laps, but with
:50:49. > :50:53.hard work we have got all the ingredients to make sure that our
:50:54. > :50:58.election campaign is a success next May. They will have seen quite a lot
:50:59. > :51:02.of Plaid Cymru in the run-up to the May general election too. I
:51:03. > :51:06.understand you're not campaigning UK wide, but the pollsters not indicate
:51:07. > :51:10.a surge for you then. You said your party is in the same place the SNP
:51:11. > :51:15.were before their breakthrough in the 2007 elections, but at this
:51:16. > :51:19.point before the 2007 elections the SNP were consistently polling at
:51:20. > :51:25.around 30% of the vote and you are polling at 18%. You are really going
:51:26. > :51:30.to have to do pound those streets. Yes, I accept we are not in exactly
:51:31. > :51:35.the same position. Not close, really. The SNP's current success
:51:36. > :51:39.started with forming a minority government back in 2007, and if we
:51:40. > :51:43.want Wales to be in the same league as Scotland and have the same clout
:51:44. > :51:46.as Scotland, then that is what we have to do here in Wales as well.
:51:47. > :51:50.And coming yes, you are right, we are going to have to pound a lot of
:51:51. > :51:56.streets and not a lot of doors, but we are in good shape and ready to do
:51:57. > :51:59.that. And I have got an excellent team of candidates, a very strong
:52:00. > :52:03.Shadow Cabinet, a very strong programme of government, and it is
:52:04. > :52:08.up to us now to get out there and explain to people what that is all
:52:09. > :52:13.about. One of your senior colleagues suggested you could win 20 seats in
:52:14. > :52:18.the assembly elections. Is that realistic? Yes, it is, nothing is
:52:19. > :52:21.impossible and nothing is inevitable about the election result either.
:52:22. > :52:24.There are many people assuming that Labour have run things for 17 years
:52:25. > :52:28.and so probably they will continue to do the same but there is nothing
:52:29. > :52:33.inevitable about that and it is up to people in Wales to decide whether
:52:34. > :52:36.or not they want to carry on with decline or whether they want a
:52:37. > :52:40.government that has a positive programme to turn around our health
:52:41. > :52:46.service, to train and recruit 1000 extra doctors, to provide social
:52:47. > :52:49.care for people in their own homes, to restructure health and social
:52:50. > :52:53.care so that we can provide better services to people and to turn
:52:54. > :52:57.around our education system as well. That is the option people have. We
:52:58. > :53:01.are offering that as an alternative. Democracy means it is up to people
:53:02. > :53:04.to decide if they want to take that option or not. If you look at the
:53:05. > :53:07.polls, and you talk about labour not being in a good position, but they
:53:08. > :53:12.are much healthier in Wales than they were in Scotland before the SNP
:53:13. > :53:18.have their surge. Do you accept that? Yes, they are, and it is up to
:53:19. > :53:23.us to point out where they failed, in terms of their record. Because
:53:24. > :53:26.many people seem to believe that the health service for example is still
:53:27. > :53:31.run by the Tories in Westminster. That isn't the case. So the failures
:53:32. > :53:35.in our health service, the long waiting times, the inability for
:53:36. > :53:39.people to access certain drugs and treatments, is down to the Labour
:53:40. > :53:43.government here in Wales, and we need to make sure that everybody
:53:44. > :53:47.understands that, and that they vote on that record, and that they fully
:53:48. > :53:52.understand what that record is all about and who is responsible for
:53:53. > :53:57.what. You talk a lot about the SNP and make comparisons, let's talk
:53:58. > :54:00.about independence. According to ICM poll, less than 10% of people would
:54:01. > :54:04.want Wales to be independent. Your party might want it but the people
:54:05. > :54:10.of Wales evidently don't. I would accept that, but there is a greater
:54:11. > :54:14.appetite, a majority appetite for strengthening the powers of this
:54:15. > :54:19.institution, our National Assembly, and there is a growing demand for a
:54:20. > :54:24.resolving of the constitutional anomalies that we have here, and
:54:25. > :54:29.inequalities in terms of finance. While I am encouraged by that, and I
:54:30. > :54:33.understand that the constitutional question is not at the top of
:54:34. > :54:36.people's agenda, health and education and the economy, those are
:54:37. > :54:40.the subjects that are much more likely to be people's priorities,
:54:41. > :54:42.and that is why we are focusing on those ahead of next year's election.
:54:43. > :54:45.Leanne Wood, thank you. Now, on what substance have Acts
:54:46. > :54:47.of Parliament been formally printed The answer is vellum, which,
:54:48. > :54:51.if you didn't know, is calfskin. As well as Acts of Parliament,
:54:52. > :54:53.major documents from British history including the Magna Carta
:54:54. > :54:56.and parts of the Domesday Book have But this centuries-long
:54:57. > :55:02.tradition could be about to end. MPs are discussing whether to use
:55:03. > :55:06.cheaper archival paper instead. The move would, they say,
:55:07. > :55:09.save around EIGHTY THOUSAND pounds But not everyone is happy,
:55:10. > :55:12.with some questioning the wisdom Well, joining us now to discuss this
:55:13. > :55:27.is the calligrapher Patricia Lovett. Welcome to the programme. Why should
:55:28. > :55:31.we continue the practice? There are three points I would like to make
:55:32. > :55:35.about vellum, and then one about craft. The fact that you mentioned
:55:36. > :55:39.we have the Domesday book and the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta
:55:40. > :55:43.this year is because it has been on vellum. If it had been on paper,
:55:44. > :55:48.that would not be the case. Vellum lasts. It would not have survived.
:55:49. > :55:52.We have books going back 2000 years, one of the earliest books, the Codex
:55:53. > :55:58.I'm Atticus, written about 350 A.D.. It is on vellum and it lasts. This
:55:59. > :56:05.is one of the key things about Dell. This is a skin on felon here. This
:56:06. > :56:09.is -- a skin of vellum, the sort of thing I use as a calligrapher. This
:56:10. > :56:14.isn't what they would use for printing on, in terms of it would be
:56:15. > :56:18.cut into pieces. And so I get really quite fine lines on the work that I
:56:19. > :56:22.do on vellum because this is one of the qualities that it has, and this
:56:23. > :56:29.is using traditional skills of producing gold leaf on gesso. So
:56:30. > :56:33.vellum lasts. This will outlast me and virtually every success that
:56:34. > :56:37.comes after me. That is interesting, it would actually outlast any other
:56:38. > :56:43.sort of material. It feels quite thick and not that pliable, but it
:56:44. > :56:46.obviously is. It is absolutely fine. What our predecessors had done is
:56:47. > :56:50.given as this legacy of being able to look at those roles that we have
:56:51. > :56:54.seen, what we are giving for our successes is 250 years, even with
:56:55. > :56:59.archival paper, and then reprint the whole lot. So that is the first
:57:00. > :57:04.thing. The second thing is vellum doesn't need any special anything,
:57:05. > :57:08.no special ink, no special printers, no special conditions. So can you
:57:09. > :57:11.save money on that? Yes, because with paper you have to have
:57:12. > :57:15.temperature and humidity controlled environment. You have to build that
:57:16. > :57:18.environment, control that environment, monitor that
:57:19. > :57:23.environment, have someone who looks at that environment. Patricia has
:57:24. > :57:28.made a fairly impassioned argument, would you be backing the vellum? It
:57:29. > :57:31.is interesting, because I know this was debated in 1999, and the same
:57:32. > :57:38.arguments came out then and won the day. We always need to look at the
:57:39. > :57:42.cost, but on the other hand there are some traditions and archival
:57:43. > :57:46.reasons why. We would not have had documents like the Domesday book and
:57:47. > :57:50.the Magna Carta. I am one over. There are some things that you just
:57:51. > :57:54.can't replace. If we become so mean, and we are the sixth richest economy
:57:55. > :57:57.in the world, I can't believe that we have to make sacrifices for
:57:58. > :58:00.things like this as well in this age of austerity. Things like this are
:58:01. > :58:06.part of our national heritage, history and hopefully our future.
:58:07. > :58:11.You have convinced two MPs, you are obviously on your way, what is it
:58:12. > :58:14.like writing on it? My third point, it is green, because it is a
:58:15. > :58:17.by-product of the meat and dairy industry, no harsh chemicals, no
:58:18. > :58:23.first cut down or anything like that and it is one of our heritage
:58:24. > :58:27.crafts. William Cowie is the last vellum producer in the country,
:58:28. > :58:28.producing a world-class British product. Good luck with your
:58:29. > :58:29.campaign. There's just time before we go to
:58:30. > :58:33.find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which of these
:58:34. > :58:35.parliamentarians has turned down an invitation to appear on this year's
:58:36. > :58:59.I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here? I was disappointed. I am bad enough
:59:00. > :59:01.if there is a spider in the house. Rather him than me. That is it,
:59:02. > :59:03.goodbye.