:00:37. > :00:45.Confusion in Sharm El-Sheikh as stranded British tourists are
:00:46. > :00:48.told to go back to their hotels and more flights are cancelled.
:00:49. > :00:51.Three police officers are hospitalised
:00:52. > :00:56.Can this sort of direct action ever be justified?
:00:57. > :01:04.He was one of UKIP's highest-profile ethnic minority candidates -
:01:05. > :01:07.now he says he's the victim of racial discrimination in the party.
:01:08. > :01:23.We'll be talking to Winston Mackenzie.
:01:24. > :01:26.And the unmistakable figure of George Galloway emerges from the
:01:27. > :01:28.I'll be asking the former MP and London mayoral hopeful
:01:29. > :01:32.about his plans to enter the vintage clothing market.
:01:33. > :01:35.All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today,
:01:36. > :01:38.two doyens of political style - there's some substance to them too,
:01:39. > :01:49.Kiran Stacey of the Financial Times and Julia Hartley Brewer.
:01:50. > :01:52.First this afternoon - flights were supposed to be starting to bring
:01:53. > :01:55.British holiday-makers back from the Egyptian resort of Sharm El Sheikh
:01:56. > :01:58.today, but there's considerable confusion about the number of planes
:01:59. > :02:00.that will be able to operate, and passengers are being told that
:02:01. > :02:03.they will have to fly without their luggage, which will be
:02:04. > :02:08.In a moment we'll catch up with our correspondent in Sharm.
:02:09. > :02:10.But first let's talk to our political correspondent,
:02:11. > :02:20.It is getting a bit messy now. Do we have a clear idea of the picture?
:02:21. > :02:25.Are the flights happening? Some flights are but yes a messy picture
:02:26. > :02:28.in Government as well as Sharm El-Sheikh. I'm just back from
:02:29. > :02:33.Downing Street's briefing. It looks like one charter airline, monarch
:02:34. > :02:37.are sending flights out and two easyJet flights have left for
:02:38. > :02:43.London. They were already at Sharm El-Sheikh airport. However it looks
:02:44. > :02:46.as though, what the Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin was
:02:47. > :02:51.talking about, that everyone who was meant to be home by Friday night
:02:52. > :02:53.will be, there will be in excess of 20 flights, looks unlikely. Downing
:02:54. > :02:57.Street is saying the situation is complex and fluid. Off the record,
:02:58. > :03:01.as I understand t the problem is this - in effect they think an
:03:02. > :03:06.agreement has been made with Egyptian officials to get the
:03:07. > :03:08.flights in and people out but it is not clear whether the Egyptian
:03:09. > :03:11.officials are withdrawing cooperation and making it as
:03:12. > :03:15.difficult as possible or whether people on the ground at the airport
:03:16. > :03:19.are simply saying, they are not used to having this extra capacity and
:03:20. > :03:23.can't deal with it but the upshot now is that there can be no
:03:24. > :03:27.guarantee that everyone who should have been back from Sharm El-Sheikh
:03:28. > :03:30.by this evening, will be. The British Government has firmly fixed
:03:31. > :03:33.it colours to the mast that this was a terrorist attack. The Egyptians
:03:34. > :03:39.and the Russians, for their own reasons will be hoping it is not.
:03:40. > :03:42.And indeed may not be that keen to cooperate to discover if it was. The
:03:43. > :03:45.British Government could find itself at some stage in a rather
:03:46. > :03:48.embarrassing stand-off with the Egyptians and the Russians as to
:03:49. > :03:55.what actually caused this. That's right. It is not clear whether that
:03:56. > :04:00.stand-off, which I think has already already begun given the comments we
:04:01. > :04:04.have had from Moscow and some Egyptian officials, whether that is
:04:05. > :04:09.delaying the evacuation of British tourists from Sharm El-Sheikh. I
:04:10. > :04:14.asked the number Ten spokesman about 20 minutes ago whether there was any
:04:15. > :04:19.new information relevant to the investigation of the crash that has
:04:20. > :04:23.been shared with President Abdel Fatah al-Sisi who is at the MoD this
:04:24. > :04:28.morning or the Russian allies. He said the situation hasn't changed.
:04:29. > :04:33.He said based on intelligence and other factors, it is most like that
:04:34. > :04:38.a bomb caused the jet to go down but they would not say whether there was
:04:39. > :04:43.any information to reinforce that. He said simply there was a dialogue
:04:44. > :04:46.and what they were sharing was an explanation for Britain's actions. I
:04:47. > :04:49.understand the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, he has been using
:04:50. > :04:52.this terrorist attack, as the British Government believes it is,
:04:53. > :04:56.to talk about the broader threat from Islamic state? Yes, he has
:04:57. > :05:05.talked about the broader threat in the region. Certainly there is some
:05:06. > :05:09.charter about whether there was the Islamic State off-shoot in sign eye
:05:10. > :05:14.who was responsible. But -- in Sinai. But he renewed his call for
:05:15. > :05:15.an extension of British air strikes in Iraq to Syria.
:05:16. > :05:28.I'm briefing MPs on the state of the campaign against Isil, and I'm
:05:29. > :05:31.asking MPs particularly to reflect on the fact that the streets of
:05:32. > :05:33.Britain, at the moment, are being kept safe by American, Australian
:05:34. > :05:35.and French aircraft, striking at the heart of Isil
:05:36. > :05:38.in north-east Syria, from where Isil is organised and directed.
:05:39. > :05:47.Britain is playing its role in the campaign against Iraq
:05:48. > :05:52.but it makes no sense for British aircraft to have to turn back
:05:53. > :05:56.at an artificial border that Isis itself does not respect.
:05:57. > :06:01.We put Michael Fallon's comments to Downing Street this morning. They
:06:02. > :06:03.are saying the Prime Minister's view on Syrian air strikes hasn't
:06:04. > :06:07.changed. Certainly the case has to be made but there needs to be a
:06:08. > :06:11.consensus in the House of Commons. And that consensus is going to be
:06:12. > :06:14.far more important, when it comes to air strikes, than anything that
:06:15. > :06:16.mayville happened over the skies of Egypt. Thank you for that and
:06:17. > :06:19.bringing us up-to-date. We can talk now to our Correspondent
:06:20. > :06:31.Sally Nabil in Sharm El-Sheikh. Is the British evacuation now
:06:32. > :06:34.getting under way? Yes, what we understand so far is that two
:06:35. > :06:38.flights have left Sharm El-Sheikh already going back to the UK. But
:06:39. > :06:43.there has been a lot of confusion over the past hour. We don't nose
:06:44. > :06:46.the schedule for the rest of the flights today but the British
:06:47. > :06:49.Ambassador has spoken to journalists a short while ago and said that the
:06:50. > :06:53.Egyptian authorities haven't blocked or cancelled any flights, it was
:06:54. > :06:59.just a matter of rescheduling. What we know is that the UK wanted to
:07:00. > :07:03.send many flights at one go and the Sharm El-Sheikh airport is not a big
:07:04. > :07:06.one, so logisticically speaking, it cannot take all of the flights at
:07:07. > :07:12.one time. So they are rescheduling the flights and that might take a
:07:13. > :07:15.much longer time to repatriot the British holiday-makers back to the
:07:16. > :07:18.UK and people are growing really frustrated because they wanted to
:07:19. > :07:23.get back home as soon as possible. So, as it looks to you at the
:07:24. > :07:26.moment, Sally, the British people stranded there, they could be there
:07:27. > :07:31.over the weekend and perhaps even into the early part of next week?
:07:32. > :07:36.Yes, we have no time frame actually for how long this process is going
:07:37. > :07:43.to take and many tourists I have spoken to this morning have been
:07:44. > :07:49.complaining a lot about lack of information, lack of communication.
:07:50. > :07:53.One of them told me that he has no money to extend his booking at the
:07:54. > :07:58.hotel and he does not know what he is going to do. They were hoping to
:07:59. > :08:01.get back home today but it seems that the process will be a bit
:08:02. > :08:04.lengthy because what we understand is that the British and the Egyptian
:08:05. > :08:07.authorities are co-ordinating to bring the holiday-makers back home
:08:08. > :08:10.but things are much more complicated from a logistics point of view. Some
:08:11. > :08:13.of the tourists now are back to their hotels until further notice.
:08:14. > :08:17.Let me just ask you one final question, Sally. The British, those
:08:18. > :08:20.that can get out, are being allowed out, but only with hand luggage.
:08:21. > :08:24.Certainly with very restricted luggage. Is that an independencation
:08:25. > :08:31.that the British still don't trust the baggage security at Sharm el
:08:32. > :08:35.Sheikh? In a way, yes. Security measures have been tightened after a
:08:36. > :08:39.British aviation expert visited the airport two days ago. We have seen
:08:40. > :08:44.long queues of people waiting for check-in because the security checks
:08:45. > :08:48.are taking a much longer time. Three or four days ago I was here and
:08:49. > :08:51.things were much quieter, even on the day of the crash. The scene was
:08:52. > :08:55.totally different from today. Now you can see long queues of people
:08:56. > :09:02.inside the terminals waiting for their hand luggage to be checked.
:09:03. > :09:06.The picture has changed after Britain decided to stop its flights
:09:07. > :09:10.to Sharm el Sheikh. I asked the people how they saw the new security
:09:11. > :09:14.measures. Some were growing impatient with T others told me that
:09:15. > :09:17.it'll make them feel safer. -- with it.
:09:18. > :09:21.We can see the queues behind you. Thank you for joining us live from
:09:22. > :09:27.Sharm El-Sheikh. Let me come back to the gee yes
:09:28. > :09:32.politics of this. If it -- the geopolitics. If it turns out to be a
:09:33. > :09:36.terrorist attack. This will have been the most serious Islamist
:09:37. > :09:39.attack on what you would call Western assets, Western people since
:09:40. > :09:45.9/11. The implications of this are huge? If Russia accepts T we have no
:09:46. > :09:49.idea if it was a deliberate attack on a Russian flight or it could have
:09:50. > :09:53.been on an easyJet or monarch flight back to Britain. We don't know. We
:09:54. > :09:55.don't know for sure. Clearly there are massive implications. There are
:09:56. > :09:59.also implications for domestic travel and politics as well. The
:10:00. > :10:05.theatre of security that we do see at our airports which we have had
:10:06. > :10:13.since 9/11 and since sevenself here, particularly, the -- and since 7/7.
:10:14. > :10:19.It meaningless. Certainly in developing countries where we have
:10:20. > :10:22.seen people buying their pay past security. Perhaps we have to accept
:10:23. > :10:27.that this is possibility that could still happen to any one at any time.
:10:28. > :10:30.But the biggest threat, in terms of geopolitics and in terms of Russia,
:10:31. > :10:35.if Russia does accept this has happened, is it good for Putin, in
:10:36. > :10:40.terms of keeping tension out of what is going home in Russia, which is an
:10:41. > :10:44.economic basket case, and actually focuses more attention on what they
:10:45. > :10:48.want to do on Syria. Or will it mean that the Russian people will say -
:10:49. > :10:53.look, we don't want to get involved. This is not for us, we don't want
:10:54. > :10:56.Russians dying at the expense of you helping Assad.
:10:57. > :10:58.If Islamic State has developed a capability to penetrate the security
:10:59. > :11:02.arrangements of airports like Sharm El-Sheikh, there are plenty of
:11:03. > :11:08.airports like that, not just around the world but in that region. That
:11:09. > :11:12.is a new dimension that Islamic State has, which has huge potential
:11:13. > :11:19.in how we handle it. I think what is worrying is, is we know that
:11:20. > :11:26.Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula has been trying this for years this.
:11:27. > :11:29.Won't trigger a bomb that will trigger the metical detector. They
:11:30. > :11:33.have tried it four or five times. Has it now managed to develop the
:11:34. > :11:38.technology to almost leap frog, aldividia, with whom of course they
:11:39. > :11:44.have fallen out huge lane do this sophisticated attack. I think at the
:11:45. > :11:48.moment the Brits except it is not case and there is enormously lapse
:11:49. > :11:52.security on the ground and something which triggered a warning didn't.
:11:53. > :11:58.The Egyptian have said that we the British, sent our experts there ten
:11:59. > :12:03.months ago and it seemed to be OK. They have the scansers but pay ?10
:12:04. > :12:07.to get through. . Or if you go through and it beeps and the
:12:08. > :12:11.security guard says - I'm too stressed on you. I think that's more
:12:12. > :12:15.a reasonable explanation than developing new technology. Very
:12:16. > :12:20.worrying. It is not the most clever technology they will have used. It
:12:21. > :12:23.is not beyond the wit of your average university student. Or
:12:24. > :12:27.someone managed to plant it into the baggage hold after it was full. This
:12:28. > :12:30.story began with the plane coming down last Saturday. It has divom
:12:31. > :12:34.nated the news this week. It'll continue, I suggest -- it has
:12:35. > :12:35.dominated the news. It'll continue to dominate and there
:12:36. > :12:37.will be further developments. whose giant effigy was burnt last
:12:38. > :12:43.night at the infamous annual bonfire celebrations in the usually
:12:44. > :12:45.peaceful Sussex town of Lewes? At the end of the show,
:12:46. > :12:54.Julia and Kieran will give us Now, Labour party members and
:12:55. > :12:57.supporters may have got the leader they wanted,
:12:58. > :13:00.but Jeremy Corbyn was supported by just a handful of Labour MPs
:13:01. > :13:03.in September's leadership election. Many turned down front bench
:13:04. > :13:06.and shadow cabinet jobs, but now centrist Labour MPs -
:13:07. > :13:09.amongst them some of Mr Corbyn's biggest detractors - have found
:13:10. > :13:26.a new platform within the party. The Parliamentary Labour Party's
:13:27. > :13:32.departmental back bench committees have been dubbed the "Shadow Shadow
:13:33. > :13:34.Cabinet". And before his election as Labour
:13:35. > :13:35.leader, Jeremy Corbyn declared himself
:13:36. > :13:40.a big fan, saying there were, " Well, as elections for
:13:41. > :13:44.the committees concluded last night, None of the 17 new chairmen had
:13:45. > :13:48.backed his leadership campaign - a result which prompted one MP to
:13:49. > :13:51.describe the committee chairmen They include the pro-Trident
:13:52. > :13:54.John Woodock, who will chair This summer he warned if Mr Corbyn
:13:55. > :13:58.was elected as Labour Leader, "We can wave goodbye to any hope of
:13:59. > :14:01.electability." Tristram Hunt,
:14:02. > :14:05.who has said he has "substantial political differences" with Mr
:14:06. > :14:07.Corbyn, will chair the Communities And former Shadow Chancellor,
:14:08. > :14:16.Chris Leslie - he's attacked the "starry-eyed,
:14:17. > :14:18.hard left" economics of Mr Corbyn - To add to Mr Corbyn's potential
:14:19. > :14:24.headaches, last night Jim McMahon was chosen to
:14:25. > :14:28.be Labour's candidate in the The Oldham Council leader won 232
:14:29. > :14:33.votes compared to 17 won by ex-MP and close Corbyn ally
:14:34. > :14:40.Chris Williamson. And for a full list
:14:41. > :14:43.of the declared candidates in the Oldham West and Royton
:14:44. > :14:55.by-election, visit the BBC website. And joining me now is Mike Gapes,
:14:56. > :14:58.who has been elected as chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party's
:14:59. > :15:02.Foreign Affairs Committee, and Ronnie Campbell, a Labour MP
:15:03. > :15:16.and supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. Welcome to you both. Mike Gapes, is
:15:17. > :15:19.it just a happy coincidence that none of the shadow Shadow Cabinet
:15:20. > :15:25.winners are Jeremy Corbyn supporters? I think we reflect the
:15:26. > :15:29.views of the Parliamentary party. All of us who have been chosen to
:15:30. > :15:35.chair these backbench committees stood. There was the election, in my
:15:36. > :15:40.case, several contested elections, and people who have not nominated
:15:41. > :15:46.Jeremy Corbyn were widely supported by our colleagues. Does that not
:15:47. > :15:49.illustrate a systemic problem in the Labour Party, that the Parliamentary
:15:50. > :15:54.Labour Party, and the Labour Party in the country have become two very
:15:55. > :15:59.different animals. We will see how it works. The party in a country
:16:00. > :16:03.voted for Mr Corbyn, and the Parliamentary party votes for people
:16:04. > :16:11.like you. The Parliamentary party has a very important role over party
:16:12. > :16:14.policy over the next few years. No leader can be successful if they
:16:15. > :16:18.don't take their Parliamentary colleagues with them. Ronnie
:16:19. > :16:25.Campbell, what do you make of it? Does it have the smell of a clue
:16:26. > :16:30.about it? No, it doesn't, but these are talking shops, these committees.
:16:31. > :16:34.They do not make policies. The Labour Party members and the
:16:35. > :16:38.affiliates make policy. That's not what Jeremy Corbyn said before the
:16:39. > :16:43.elections, he said they were very important and useful in developing
:16:44. > :16:47.policy. Yes, within Parliament itself, they debate whatever the
:16:48. > :16:50.issue is coming up, foreign affairs next week, of course they will be
:16:51. > :16:59.debated, but they do not make policy. Mike Gapes, you tweeted, you
:17:00. > :17:03.are quite a voracious tweeter, there is now no collective Shadow Cabinet
:17:04. > :17:08.responsibility in our party, no clarity of economic policy, no
:17:09. > :17:13.credible leadership. Will there be collective shadow Shadow Cabinet
:17:14. > :17:16.responsibility? There is no shadow Shadow Cabinet. It's a nice
:17:17. > :17:21.headline, but the reality is the Parliamentary party will want to
:17:22. > :17:25.work collectively and cohesively. The backbench committees will play a
:17:26. > :17:29.big role in the input to development of policy. For example, we will
:17:30. > :17:33.choose to be pulled to be on a National policy Forum, to be part of
:17:34. > :17:38.that process. Mr Campbell says you will not be able to decide policy.
:17:39. > :17:46.Policy will be decided by the party overall, but the members of
:17:47. > :17:49.Parliament are an essential part of the process and no party can win an
:17:50. > :17:50.election without the support of leadership and membership and the
:17:51. > :17:57.Parliamentary party working together. Do you think there's the
:17:58. > :18:01.danger a growing division between the attitudes of the Parliamentary
:18:02. > :18:05.party and the policies and demands and attitudes of the Labour Party in
:18:06. > :18:10.the country? The Labour members of Parliament have to remember they are
:18:11. > :18:14.selected by their local Labour Party and voted on by their constituents.
:18:15. > :18:18.They are not the Labour Party, which is made up of members and
:18:19. > :18:23.affiliates, and they are the ones who decide policy. They think they
:18:24. > :18:26.will take over the Parliamentary Labour Party and run the party, they
:18:27. > :18:33.are not running the party and never will. They are in Parliament. I'm
:18:34. > :18:38.saying the Labour Party is a Parliamentary party which wins or
:18:39. > :18:42.loses elections. Without members of Parliament, including those of us
:18:43. > :18:47.who have been clearly elected by our colleagues campaigning and working
:18:48. > :18:52.collectively, if we have an attempt to try to pick off MPs or drive MPs
:18:53. > :18:56.into positions where we no longer are able to speak out for what we
:18:57. > :19:00.believe, then that will be to the detriment of the Labour Party and we
:19:01. > :19:04.will lose elections. We have got to get it right. We have to have a
:19:05. > :19:09.leadership that listens and works with the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:19:10. > :19:13.You are talking about deselection again. They are the only ones
:19:14. > :19:24.mentioning it, as far as I am concerned, and the press. Any
:19:25. > :19:28.policy, where ever, to deselect members of Parliament, that is up to
:19:29. > :19:36.the Labour Party. The members. They will select and deselect. Ken
:19:37. > :19:41.Livingstone said on Sunday, the former Mayor of London, if an MP was
:19:42. > :19:45.seen not to represent the views of the constituency party, then the
:19:46. > :19:48.constituency party would be within its rights to deselect and get
:19:49. > :19:54.somebody who more accurately reflects what they want to believe.
:19:55. > :19:58.As I said, the local Labour Party selects the candidate, and they can
:19:59. > :20:02.deselect them. Not many candidates in my time, and I've been in
:20:03. > :20:07.Parliament a long time, have been deselected. We have boundary changes
:20:08. > :20:12.coming up so there might be a lot of need for reselection. That's another
:20:13. > :20:15.matter. You might have two MPs fighting for one constituency. They
:20:16. > :20:22.will have to put their names in the Hat and hope they can fight and win
:20:23. > :20:27.the seat. That's not deselection. Mike Gapes, you said in the 1980s
:20:28. > :20:30.you were never taken seriously on defence and there's a real danger
:20:31. > :20:36.you could get into a similar situation. Yes, I was a candidate in
:20:37. > :20:40.1983, the same time Jeremy was a candidate in Islington North, and I
:20:41. > :20:46.was in Ilford North. In Ilford North we had huge rallies, big
:20:47. > :20:50.demonstrations and enthusiasm among activists but a terrible election
:20:51. > :20:53.result. We have to recognise as a Labour Party, that just entered
:20:54. > :20:58.using activists is not necessarily going to win the election. We have
:20:59. > :21:03.to cut through to people in England, in particular, who didn't vote for
:21:04. > :21:07.us last time. We have to win 106 more seats to have a majority and we
:21:08. > :21:11.have to recognise we have a big challenge. Is there a danger that
:21:12. > :21:19.the kind of people who have joined into the Labour Party to help elect
:21:20. > :21:22.Jeremy Corbyn, they have invigorated your party, and you have a lot more
:21:23. > :21:27.members, but perhaps they are not representative of the wider
:21:28. > :21:33.electorate? I don't know, I've had a big increase of nearly 600, but I
:21:34. > :21:39.haven't met many of them. They might just be ordinary union members. I
:21:40. > :21:43.don't know who they are. As far as I'm concerned, there is no takeover
:21:44. > :21:48.of the Labour Party. It has gone to the left, of course, by collecting
:21:49. > :21:53.Jeremy Corbyn. It's a different idea and tactic to the past, but we have
:21:54. > :21:57.just lost two elections. We can't run alongside the Tories and have
:21:58. > :22:02.better policies than them, we have been beaten twice. Should you get to
:22:03. > :22:08.meet the new members? I have e-mailed all of them. Inviting them
:22:09. > :22:12.into the party, now they have paid ?3, but I'm not getting many
:22:13. > :22:18.responses. Have you met union members, Mike Gapes? I've had a
:22:19. > :22:22.similar experience. I've e-mailed twice new members, my constituency
:22:23. > :22:27.party has doubled. I've e-mailed twice to say to come out knocking on
:22:28. > :22:30.doors with the Greater London Authority candidate, and both
:22:31. > :22:39.occasions I've had a handful of new members come out, but no response
:22:40. > :22:43.from the ?3 payers. Is it true, using the media shorthand of the
:22:44. > :22:47.shadow Shadow Cabinet, that you have the toe of the shadow Shadow
:22:48. > :22:52.Cabinet, that you have veto? I don't think the right of veto applies. I
:22:53. > :22:59.will be working with Hilary Benn, Shadow Foreign Secretary, and the
:23:00. > :23:03.pro-European shadow minister, to campaign and work for Labour
:23:04. > :23:07.policies. Can you speak from the dispatch box? I would have thought
:23:08. > :23:11.it was unlikely. Technically you have the right to speak. Technically
:23:12. > :23:16.and theoretically. I would love to, but I don't think I will be asked.
:23:17. > :23:23.Would you like to see Mike Gapes is big from the dispatch box at shadow
:23:24. > :23:28.shadow foreign affairs member? I might have a bash myself! What
:23:29. > :23:35.subject would you talk about? I would have a bash at the economy.
:23:36. > :23:38.Looking at one other subject. Earlier this week Jeremy Corbyn
:23:39. > :23:47.suggested British air strikes on ice is it in Iraq should be
:23:48. > :23:49.reconsidered. -- on Isis. The government wants to extend air
:23:50. > :23:53.strikes into Syrian territory because they say that is where the
:23:54. > :23:58.supply lines and bases are. Mr Corbyn is now questioning whether we
:23:59. > :24:05.should be in Iraq. I think he's wrong. I think Daesh, Isil, are a
:24:06. > :24:08.fundamental threat to Iraq, other Arab countries and ourselves. The
:24:09. > :24:14.reality is that British forces and other coalition forces are in Iraq,
:24:15. > :24:16.at the invitation of the Iraqi government. It is in accordance with
:24:17. > :24:21.international law and I think we should be doing more there. I know
:24:22. > :24:24.you need to see the details and what the government is actually planning,
:24:25. > :24:29.but on general principle you think Britain should take the fight into
:24:30. > :24:35.Syria? I don't think it's logical to be hitting targets in Iraq and not
:24:36. > :24:39.being able to carry on a few miles over the desert to hit targets in
:24:40. > :24:45.their headquarters in Syria. It seems illogical. Mr Campbell, I
:24:46. > :24:49.assume you don't want to extend bombing into Syria. I may be wrong,
:24:50. > :24:53.you tell me, but do you agree with Mr Corbyn that we should be
:24:54. > :24:57.reconsidering bombing in Iraq, which we have been asked to do by the
:24:58. > :25:01.Iraqi government. The Russians have started bombing and they haven't got
:25:02. > :25:05.an answer. And they have just lost a plane. Do you think the British
:25:06. > :25:11.government is right, there is a clear connection? I think there is,
:25:12. > :25:16.that it was a bomb. It will be there people who have done it. If we start
:25:17. > :25:21.bombing, the consequences for us are there. Do you think we should stop
:25:22. > :25:24.bombing in Iraq as well? Yes. I don't think bombing makes any
:25:25. > :25:30.difference at all. You are killing a lot of innocent people to maybe get
:25:31. > :25:35.half a dozen Isis people. It's an interesting proposition, terrible if
:25:36. > :25:39.true, but do we have evidence that the British Tornado bombing has
:25:40. > :25:44.killed innocent people? We had before. We don't know, because they
:25:45. > :25:50.haven't been bombing. But the bombing in Iraq. We haven't been
:25:51. > :25:54.doing that much. Not a great deal. Just to speak to my two guests. The
:25:55. > :26:01.Labour Party story has a long way to go. It's clear listening to this, a
:26:02. > :26:03.lot of matters to be reconciled, and clearly tensions between the
:26:04. > :26:10.parliamentary party and the membership. They are now completely
:26:11. > :26:13.separate entities. Two months into Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and they
:26:14. > :26:21.are talking to themselves. Not to be electorate at large. A lot of these
:26:22. > :26:27.journalists have never even heard of these committees inside the Labour
:26:28. > :26:32.Party. I think it's extraordinary. 1117 parliamentary party chairs
:26:33. > :26:41.nominated Liz Kendall. Perhaps as much as the whole membership! -- 11
:26:42. > :26:47.out of 17 Parliamentary party chairs. What is interesting about
:26:48. > :26:51.what these gentlemen are saying is that new members are not showing up.
:26:52. > :26:56.I've heard it from activist friends in the Labour Party, they say the
:26:57. > :27:01.new guys flooding in, they lumbered us with Jeremy Corbyn, and I'm
:27:02. > :27:05.talking about centrist people here, they feel lumbered by Jeremy Corbyn,
:27:06. > :27:09.but they are not turning up on the doorstep. There is talk of
:27:10. > :27:13.deselection, but they are not there in numbers to engage with the Labour
:27:14. > :27:18.Party. Long-standing Labour Party members were not given the chance to
:27:19. > :27:21.vote for socialism, and not surprisingly, they voted for
:27:22. > :27:25.socialism. If those members want to take over the party they have to
:27:26. > :27:30.ring gauge. You mean me here today and gone tomorrow type?
:27:31. > :27:39.I'm sure if Mr Campbell and Mike Gapes invite these members round for
:27:40. > :27:43.a cup of tea they will be happy to join them and tell us what their
:27:44. > :27:44.attitudes are and how important they will be for the party. I thank you
:27:45. > :27:47.both for joining us. Now, remember, remember the 5th of
:27:48. > :27:50.November - and if you were out in central London last night, you might
:27:51. > :27:53.have had a little help courtesy of protesters wearing Guido Fawkes
:27:54. > :27:56.masks. The Million Mask March, associated with a group called
:27:57. > :28:11.Anonymous calls itself the "Largest They had events and other UK and US
:28:12. > :28:16.cities. Police in London were said to be braced for a turnout of 18000
:28:17. > :28:20.and warned of an element intent on criminality. There were five arrests
:28:21. > :28:24.last night and three police officers were hospitalised. Didn't look like
:28:25. > :28:37.18,000 on the streets. We kept an eye on what was going on.
:28:38. > :29:00.The whole thing was organised on social media. Facebook said 18,000
:29:01. > :29:04.people would come. We walked down Whitehall to Sarah 's of our
:29:05. > :29:09.streets, not revolution. -- shouts of. I'm not sure where we will end
:29:10. > :29:14.up, and I'm not sure this lot know either. A lot of us are saying that
:29:15. > :29:22.enough is enough. If you know the realities of what's going on then
:29:23. > :29:28.you would be joining in. Free hugs. It did get violent last year, didn't
:29:29. > :29:31.it? I'm a peaceful person, and that's how I will remain.
:29:32. > :29:34.Well, it has been going for less than an hour but already
:29:35. > :30:02.Over the other side there is a line of police on police horses
:30:03. > :30:05.The crowd has been pushing backwards and forwards
:30:06. > :30:12.A lot of protesters running around and police running around.
:30:13. > :30:14.Protesters shouting "kettle, kettle" they are concerned they are
:30:15. > :30:18.Ie stuck in this area here and not being able to run off,
:30:19. > :30:24.We have seen several thousand protesters but we are not
:30:25. > :30:28.That seems to be the nature of this whole march.
:30:29. > :30:30.We have found them and they are now on Pall Mall.
:30:31. > :30:33.And certainly a big column of people walking up this way.
:30:34. > :30:36.Is this going to make a difference, this march tonight?
:30:37. > :30:42.I don't think it will, but I want us to hear the voices.
:30:43. > :30:45.We don't want to fight but we are going to have to fight soon.
:30:46. > :30:47.It is raining, you don't mind the rain?
:30:48. > :31:03.Well, there was a flurry of activity,
:31:04. > :31:06.suddenly the police arrived and quite literally blocked the road.
:31:07. > :31:13.There have been some shouts that the kettle is on
:31:14. > :31:16.but I imagine that's not the kettle being on in a good way.
:31:17. > :31:19.The protesters were told they have to stop protesting after 9.00pm.
:31:20. > :31:25.Quite what happens next I'm not sure.
:31:26. > :31:31.In the end it didn't take long to clear them. Elsewhere there were
:31:32. > :31:34.small pockets of violence and three police officers were injured,
:31:35. > :31:38.needing hospital treatment. At least 50 arrests were made, mainly for
:31:39. > :31:45.public order offences. And some of the protesters were disappointed
:31:46. > :31:50.with how it turned out. It is about making a statement and saying - we
:31:51. > :31:54.are not happy. We are not happy with what is going on. Do you think
:31:55. > :31:58.tonight will have made any difference? Unfortunately it wasn't,
:31:59. > :32:02.no. Of course it won't. It is not really a march. It is just people
:32:03. > :32:06.standinger around in a corner. They are scattered around. They didn't
:32:07. > :32:09.get together. If they did get together, it would have been a
:32:10. > :32:16.revolution. I think the weather has put everyone off, to be honest. A
:32:17. > :32:18.very British approach to the revolution, the weather.
:32:19. > :32:21.And we're joined now by Adam Clifford of the Class War party, who
:32:22. > :32:31.What was last night's march against? Against a lot of things, austerity.
:32:32. > :32:35.The state that London is N the desperation of the people. There is
:32:36. > :32:39.a lot of homeless at the moment. -- London is in. That's off the scale
:32:40. > :32:46.at the moment. I myself am actually homeless at the moment. So I feel
:32:47. > :32:50.very - yeah, I salute the guys who went out last night but it was
:32:51. > :32:54.boring. It was such a police display, a military march. You know,
:32:55. > :32:58.nothing could really happen. Are you worried that the whole - this whole
:32:59. > :33:05.movement is running out of steam? There weren't that many people there
:33:06. > :33:10.last night? ? It is just the sort of crunchdown, really. It is just the
:33:11. > :33:15.police. There was as many police as there was protesters last night and
:33:16. > :33:18.you know, in Trafalgar Square, all these sections were being read out,
:33:19. > :33:24.that you couldn't cover up. It was police state. Orwellian, like 1984.
:33:25. > :33:28.They couldn't find any of the organisers to deal with in advance
:33:29. > :33:34.It is Anonymous, so there are no... That is That's what the thing is.
:33:35. > :33:38.Have you undermined yourselves by being a bit unfocussed. There were
:33:39. > :33:42.so many different protesters and issue last night. I was looking at
:33:43. > :33:48.the general concept of being against capitalism. You mentioned
:33:49. > :33:51.homelessness. Animal rights was one. What is happening to South Korean
:33:52. > :33:56.dogs, paedophiles. Is there not a danger that you are firing on too
:33:57. > :34:01.many fronts? No, I think all this stuff crosses over. I think it is a
:34:02. > :34:05.march of the underdogs, really. It is the people, the other side of the
:34:06. > :34:09.fence, that are really feeling it. You know, London is in this kind of
:34:10. > :34:13.state at the moment. It has become Victorian again. You have the super
:34:14. > :34:19.rich and the super poor. So, I mean, what are we meant to do? You say it
:34:20. > :34:23.is the march of the underdogs. A number of people were tweeting who
:34:24. > :34:28.watched T members of the public. One said - nice to see anti-capitalists
:34:29. > :34:35.queueing patiently at McDonald's while on iPhones. Well, we are
:34:36. > :34:41.underdogings, actually. We could not do anything last night with the
:34:42. > :34:44.police in full-scale displaying all their techniques, doing all their
:34:45. > :34:48.dances up and down and all that stuff with all their armour and guns
:34:49. > :34:53.and tasers and all that business, really. Explain, what is the purpose
:34:54. > :34:58.of the mask? Well, I mean, the bottom line is - say you had a job,
:34:59. > :35:02.you were trying to get by and you don't believe this is a democracy or
:35:03. > :35:06.something is not fair, you could go out on the street and go to a
:35:07. > :35:10.protest and basically be profiled. There is this whole thing of joint
:35:11. > :35:15.enterprise now, you could be picked up a few days after the event just
:35:16. > :35:19.for going. Maybe you didn't do anything, anything violent and you
:35:20. > :35:25.are named, shaped and framed and all the rest of it and probably lose the
:35:26. > :35:30.basic prif larges you have. We have cover -- privileges. We have covered
:35:31. > :35:36.these on years gone by, pretty huge ones. This one was smaller. For Guy
:35:37. > :35:41.Fawkes night, I suggest it is a damp squib. It was boring. I went home
:35:42. > :35:45.early. I don't think these protests that really work in the past will
:35:46. > :35:50.work again in the future. I think there will have to be new protests.
:35:51. > :35:54.That's the way it will have to go. Does the violence help by drawing
:35:55. > :35:58.attention, or does it make it easier for your protests to be dismissed? I
:35:59. > :36:03.mean throwing fireworks at the police horse, for example. You know
:36:04. > :36:07.how much the British love animals? I love animals, too, but you have to
:36:08. > :36:11.take a different approach with this whole situation, with animals and
:36:12. > :36:17.what they are trained to do, charge at crowds. They weren't charging at
:36:18. > :36:21.crowds. A little bit last night. They were simply around Buckingham
:36:22. > :36:26.Palace and some people threw fire crackers at them. Was that a wise
:36:27. > :36:29.thing to do? I don't about wise. I have seen police brutality. I have
:36:30. > :36:34.seen police knock girls around and all sorts of things, I have no faith
:36:35. > :36:39.in the police. Why are we taking it out on the horse? Why are we going
:36:40. > :36:43.on about the horse? Because fireworks were thrown and smoke
:36:44. > :36:47.grenades. The question I am asking you, is whether this does your case,
:36:48. > :36:51.does it draw attention and you get coverage or people look at what you
:36:52. > :36:55.are protesting for or does it make it easier for people to dismiss you.
:36:56. > :36:58.That was my question. I don't think people that were on this march,
:36:59. > :37:02.fighting for this particular cause, really care about being dismissed.
:37:03. > :37:08.Because, you know - I mean this is a bit of a circus, it is a spectacle.
:37:09. > :37:13.The media is a whole circus. We know what the media can do to us. It is
:37:14. > :37:16.the bottom line. We just carry on, carry on fighting for what we
:37:17. > :37:22.believe in. Is this getk anywhere? It doesn't look at it. That is your
:37:23. > :37:26.point of view. What are you doing? I was interested you said the protests
:37:27. > :37:29.might not have been working recently. That's what you said.
:37:30. > :37:33.Would you say it is getting anywhere? Is it achieving what you
:37:34. > :37:37.wanted? I don't think the one last night did but some other protests
:37:38. > :37:41.have worked, raising awareness and could lead to a bigger thing that
:37:42. > :37:46.could change things for a lot of people, sure. I remember thinking
:37:47. > :37:50.this in 2010-11 when student protests were happening around
:37:51. > :37:53.tuition fees. You felt - is this a moment, is this when the
:37:54. > :37:57.Conservative Party in particular and obviously the Lib Dems will feel the
:37:58. > :38:01.effect of the public anger brewing. It didn't happen because most people
:38:02. > :38:05.don't feel T Most people, who is most people? The people who vote n
:38:06. > :38:09.May, we had an election. That's how we find out. You are talking about
:38:10. > :38:12.believe who belief in the establishment. Works really for you,
:38:13. > :38:20.sweet heart. Thank you for patronising me. I would like to ask
:38:21. > :38:24.a question. You talked about it big boring, I don't want to put words
:38:25. > :38:28.into your mouth. My guess is you would have liked lots of violence,
:38:29. > :38:32.attacking police officers and damaging public and private property
:38:33. > :38:42.s that what you would have preferred S that your requesting anything"?
:38:43. > :38:47.How did women get the vote? Have you seen the Suffragetteses film? It was
:38:48. > :38:49.a crap film. For the huge numbers of young people, particularly young
:38:50. > :38:54.people from poorer families who don't vote. What do you know about
:38:55. > :38:59.poor families? Can I finish. You don't know. Well I'm just a
:39:00. > :39:03.sweetheart or a word you called me before we came on air, rather more
:39:04. > :39:08.rudely that we can't say Whatever. All right. We need young people to
:39:09. > :39:13.get the vote, rather than smashing up London. I have a feeling this is
:39:14. > :39:16.not going to go any further Well thank you. Hold on, let me read this
:39:17. > :39:19.bit and then you can depart. Now - if you're spending ?27,000
:39:20. > :39:22.on something you would expect Today
:39:23. > :39:29.the Government are outlining reforms to the higher education sector
:39:30. > :39:32.in a Green Paper that they hope will They'll let universities increase
:39:33. > :39:34.their fees beyond the current ?9,000 a year
:39:35. > :39:37.limit but only if they improve Earlier Jo Johnson,
:39:38. > :39:40.the Universities Minister, was asked if this meant universities
:39:41. > :39:48.that were under-performing would be There's a lot of excellence
:39:49. > :39:53.in our higher education system. We have four out of the world's
:39:54. > :39:56.top ten best universities. 38 out of
:39:57. > :39:58.the world's top 100 universities. So there's a lot of excellence
:39:59. > :40:04.in our system. But there is also the patchiness
:40:05. > :40:07.and the bit of variability in the quality of teaching within
:40:08. > :40:09.and in between universities. That's what we want to
:40:10. > :40:12.constructively shine a light on, so we can all work together to lift
:40:13. > :40:14.overall teaching standards, so students get
:40:15. > :40:16.the best quality experience Taxpayers will benefit underwriting
:40:17. > :40:35.the system, and employers will benefit because they will get
:40:36. > :40:37.a better skilled workforce coming We're joined now by Dave Phoenix
:40:38. > :40:40.of the "million plus" He's also Vice Chancellor of
:40:41. > :40:48.the London South Bank University. What is your take on what the
:40:49. > :40:51.Government is now saying? I'm pleased to see the Government
:40:52. > :40:55.putting this paper forward. I think there are a number of really
:40:56. > :41:00.important principles in there. They are reemphasising thor importance
:41:01. > :41:04.and focus of widening access on social be mobility which we are
:41:05. > :41:07.making in-roads on, but could do more and they are emphasising
:41:08. > :41:10.putting students at the heart of the system which is always something
:41:11. > :41:13.that universities need to continue to work on. They are looking at the
:41:14. > :41:17.fact that the sector has changed substantially over recent years,
:41:18. > :41:20.therefore, what will it look like in the future and what regulatory
:41:21. > :41:26.framework do we need? It is positive to see them putting this forward.
:41:27. > :41:29.Are the universities, the former polytechnics, are they fairly
:41:30. > :41:35.unstigmatised places, as places of bad teaching. In my experience, you
:41:36. > :41:39.get pretty bad teaching at Russell Group universities as well? I don't
:41:40. > :41:44.think they are necessarily stigmatised. I think the challenge I
:41:45. > :41:49.have with actually is the things like the phrase dock polytechnics.
:41:50. > :41:52.But when you think, most universities like Egyptian officials
:41:53. > :41:58.like mine have been universities since 1992. When the big switch-over
:41:59. > :42:02.took place. Most of the students coming from school now weren't born
:42:03. > :42:05.them. It doesn't have context now for a lot of the students coming
:42:06. > :42:10.through. Do you charge ?9,000? We do. Does it make sense, in effect,
:42:11. > :42:15.all the universities are really charging the same. Does it really
:42:16. > :42:21.make sense - let's just take the London South Bank University. The
:42:22. > :42:27.Guardian Higher Education Tables, you are 11th out of 119th higher
:42:28. > :42:34.education institutions in the 2016 rankings but you charge the same as
:42:35. > :42:38.Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE. Does that make sense? A couple of
:42:39. > :42:43.points. If you look at the ?9,000 fee. It has been fixed for coming up
:42:44. > :42:45.to five years. Therefore, we are in a position where actually delivering
:42:46. > :42:50.that education, in many courses, actually costs more than ?9,000. It
:42:51. > :42:53.is not that we have brought in the additional nvenlingt we have
:42:54. > :42:59.actually seen a cut in grants from Government of about 80%. Additional
:43:00. > :43:04.income. I understand why you are charging it. I would think if you
:43:05. > :43:08.are a student, do you think - I will get to one of the most famous
:43:09. > :43:12.universities in the world t costs me ?9,000, or do I go to London South
:43:13. > :43:17.Bank University, not quite so famous t still costs me ?9,000 Let's look
:43:18. > :43:20.at specifics. Maybe this is one of the opportunities that we have with
:43:21. > :43:25.the paper about trying to puncture some of those myths. If we look at
:43:26. > :43:31.London South Bank University we take a diverse range of students.
:43:32. > :43:34.Graduate employment rates are comparable with many select
:43:35. > :43:38.institution, top half of the table. According to the Guardian fewer than
:43:39. > :43:41.50% of your graduates are in graduate level employment within six
:43:42. > :43:47.months. It is the second-worst in the country. I think your data is a
:43:48. > :43:51.little old. Currently the amount of students in graduate employment for
:43:52. > :43:57.South Bank is about 75% and we are in the top 20 of graduate starters.
:43:58. > :44:01.When did that? This year's data. This data is... It is out of date.
:44:02. > :44:05.What was the revolution in two years? The main changes we have been
:44:06. > :44:08.making, the same with every university, you focus on your
:44:09. > :44:14.courses, look at how you develop. What we have been doing is focussing
:44:15. > :44:16.much more on placement opportunities, on providing
:44:17. > :44:20.additional guidance, and volunteering activity. Awe dress the
:44:21. > :44:23.issues? It is around not just the teaching and what we deliver but it
:44:24. > :44:28.is around the environment that students get access to. A lot of
:44:29. > :44:30.students were telling us, one of the key aims was around career
:44:31. > :44:35.progression. It is not true for every student. Some students want to
:44:36. > :44:40.do other things. It is trying to meet the diverse requirement of the
:44:41. > :44:45.student body and to celebrate the range and diversity of students we
:44:46. > :44:50.have within the UK. Would you have more diversity if your fees were
:44:51. > :44:54.lower? I'm in the too sure we would have more diversity. More students
:44:55. > :44:58.from poorer backgrounds? There is no evidence for that. The area where we
:44:59. > :45:01.have concerns is on part-time numbers. They have dropped
:45:02. > :45:05.nationally. And that's got to be addressed. Because a lot of the
:45:06. > :45:09.future potential for higher education, is around part-time
:45:10. > :45:14.because a lot of people we need to retrain are already in jobs. If you
:45:15. > :45:17.look at the entry to undergraduate course, those numbers have remained
:45:18. > :45:25.stable. I think there is a need, as we move forward, to try to address
:45:26. > :45:30.two things - one is making sure that the universities have the ability it
:45:31. > :45:34.depeet globally because we do compete globally, whilst at the same
:45:35. > :45:39.time looking at the tow tality of the total the student has to borrow
:45:40. > :45:43.and see if we have the individual right between the student and state
:45:44. > :45:50.and employer. It is not just the student. Many come from socio
:45:51. > :45:53.economic backgrounds, so they are Borowski yoking to cope with
:45:54. > :46:02.subsistence. To live in London. Yes and it is not cheap.
:46:03. > :46:07.Because of these students are expecting some sort of return. When
:46:08. > :46:13.I went there were no fees and you could do what you want and the job
:46:14. > :46:21.would look after itself. Could we get to a situation where some of the
:46:22. > :46:23.underperforming universities might close because students will say, I'm
:46:24. > :46:27.not going there. And they should. I hate we start the debate from the
:46:28. > :46:32.point of view of these of ?9,000 per year. It is wrong, Tony Blair
:46:33. > :46:37.brought it in, and education should be free at undergraduate level. The
:46:38. > :46:41.other issue is the ridiculous 50% target people going to university.
:46:42. > :46:44.I've spoken to people who say, I don't see why I should take a job
:46:45. > :46:48.working as a carer or waitress because I have a degree. And they
:46:49. > :46:54.have a 2.2 in media studies from Bank! With all due respect, those
:46:55. > :47:01.degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on. It looks like
:47:02. > :47:05.there's a market failure going on. Worst performing universities are
:47:06. > :47:10.still charging ?9,000. The signals are not working the way they should
:47:11. > :47:16.be. The problem is, if you are a student, and you make the decision
:47:17. > :47:18.for three years, and if you discover halfway through the teaching is not
:47:19. > :47:27.up to scratch, it's difficult to go back on your choice. There is a high
:47:28. > :47:33.dropout rate as well. There are two points, one is that a lot of people
:47:34. > :47:43.are out of date with what the courses are like. Media is one of
:47:44. > :47:47.the UK, creative industries. It's predicted around 80% of future jobs
:47:48. > :47:51.will require a degree of higher-level education. I think a
:47:52. > :47:56.lot of people are out of tune. We don't need to just look at current
:47:57. > :47:59.universities, but what we can do is look at providers to upscale people
:48:00. > :48:02.and provide all those with opportunities. Thank you for joining
:48:03. > :48:04.us. Now,
:48:05. > :48:06.he was one of Ukip's highest profile ethnic minority candidates and
:48:07. > :48:08.their former Commonwealth spokesman, but now Winston McKenzie has quit
:48:09. > :48:11.the party claiming that he's been Here's Nigel Farage lauding
:48:12. > :48:15.Mr McKenzie earlier this year as proof of the party's appeal
:48:16. > :48:22.amongst ethnic minority voters. Let this picture of me on the stage
:48:23. > :48:27.with these wonderful men and women, from all their different backgrounds
:48:28. > :48:30.and their united belief in being British and being part of this
:48:31. > :48:34.country and in wanting this country to be free and independent,
:48:35. > :48:39.and self-governing and proud. Let this be Ukip's
:48:40. > :48:45.Clause Four moment. But from this moment on, please,
:48:46. > :49:12.do not ever call us a racist party. Good to see you. Handshake, very
:49:13. > :49:16.nice. Let me quote, earlier this week you said you were racially
:49:17. > :49:19.discriminated against by people higher up in Ukip. Without naming
:49:20. > :49:24.names, because the lawyers are watching, what evidence do you have?
:49:25. > :49:29.I was receiving letters, phone calls, and the work I had done for
:49:30. > :49:36.the party with regards to the infrastructure of Ukip in London was
:49:37. > :49:44.profound. I created a training course that was so successful,
:49:45. > :49:49.certain members higher up became jealous and angry of me. The
:49:50. > :49:54.training class that I created, I personally trained 30 people...
:49:55. > :49:59.Let's accept that you have done a great job for the party. I'm asking
:50:00. > :50:04.you for the evidence that you suffered from racial dissemination.
:50:05. > :50:10.When I initially came into the party, the Ukip website was people
:50:11. > :50:14.issuing their comments about me. Racist comments that were so bad
:50:15. > :50:19.that they had to pull down the site. Did you know these were Ukip
:50:20. > :50:25.members? All sorts of websites have all sorts of trolling. The situation
:50:26. > :50:29.got so bad I brought it to the party's Chief Executive. I spoke to
:50:30. > :50:33.Nigel Farage and told him I was having problems. There were people
:50:34. > :50:37.in the party that were racist. When I say racist, Andrew, I'm not
:50:38. > :50:41.referring to Ukip members, these people are the salt of the earth.
:50:42. > :50:46.I'm not referring to people directly involved with Nigel and the
:50:47. > :50:52.leadership itself, I'm referring to four or five people within the party
:50:53. > :50:57.who are blatantly racist. So is your complaint that Ukip is not
:50:58. > :51:01.institutionally racist, but it has some members that are racist? Some
:51:02. > :51:07.members in it are racist. As a man of my integrity, I'm a black man
:51:08. > :51:12.trying to make better in society, and I will not stand for it in this
:51:13. > :51:16.day and age. What would you say to some people who say it is just sour
:51:17. > :51:20.grapes on your part after you were dropped from the front bench earlier
:51:21. > :51:24.this year, did not become the London mayor candidate and did not become
:51:25. > :51:27.one of the London assembly candidates, and maybe you have
:51:28. > :51:32.concluded that your career in Ukip is going nowhere? They would love
:51:33. > :51:36.for that to be the case. Every politician within Ukip or any
:51:37. > :51:41.political party would love to be included in the list. To be the
:51:42. > :51:48.mayor candidate, whatever. But the simple fact is that I pride myself
:51:49. > :51:53.as a politician in democracy. Ukip prides itself in democracy. The
:51:54. > :51:57.selection process for the mayoral candidates and the London assembly,
:51:58. > :52:04.the Ukip membership was not included. It is this lackadaisical
:52:05. > :52:09.form of organisation that are ignored me at the end of the day. Is
:52:10. > :52:16.it true that you've been a member of every political party? I never
:52:17. > :52:24.joined Labour. Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, Veritas, with
:52:25. > :52:28.Kilroy. Unity was my party. And. You only have to look at the greats, and
:52:29. > :52:34.I'm great. Looked at Churchill matter how many times did he move
:52:35. > :52:44.his position? He won elections. I'm a new boy. I only want a shadow box
:52:45. > :52:49.with you today, not spa. Didn't you audition for the X factor? That's
:52:50. > :52:53.what's wrong with politics today, politicians need to put themselves
:52:54. > :52:59.about and get involved in ordinary peoples' lives. I get around. I know
:53:00. > :53:04.what's going on. They didn't choose you, but looking at the Ukip
:53:05. > :53:08.candidates for the London assembly, they chose them a couple of weeks
:53:09. > :53:18.ago and a third of them are from ethnic minorities. Thanks to Winston
:53:19. > :53:22.McKenzie. But not you. So is racism... Would a racist party
:53:23. > :53:28.choose a third of its membership from ethic minorities? Speak to any
:53:29. > :53:32.member or activist, and ask them who is responsible for the influx of
:53:33. > :53:37.black and ethnic minorities into Ukip, and they will say it was
:53:38. > :53:42.Winston. You can never be a prophet in your own land! I'm a profit where
:53:43. > :53:49.ever I go. I didn't need them to choose me because the work I did
:53:50. > :53:53.will go on as a legacy. I wonder if Ukip took the view that as a
:53:54. > :53:59.politician you could be a bit of a liability. After all, you once
:54:00. > :54:04.described Croydon as a dump. It's a point of view, but probably not a
:54:05. > :54:08.point of view you should have, if, as you were, the local election
:54:09. > :54:13.candidate. Andrew, you have to speak the truth and tell it as you see it.
:54:14. > :54:19.That's why you lost! The place is a dump. The whole of London is
:54:20. > :54:22.becoming a dump. Go outside portcullis house and see the chewing
:54:23. > :54:27.gum on the floor. I'm sorry I didn't include the rest of London. That's
:54:28. > :54:33.obviously why they didn't choose you for the London assembly. When you
:54:34. > :54:37.are growing up, did you see black bags and rubbish dumped everywhere?
:54:38. > :54:42.Of course I did, I grew up in Paisley! I never saw that when I
:54:43. > :54:46.came to this country when I was five years old, and the streets were
:54:47. > :54:50.clean. It's a dump. It's about time we did something about it. Sounds
:54:51. > :54:59.like the people weren't ready for your message. Most people think that
:55:00. > :55:05.London is kind of... Having a render sums beyond belief. When I first
:55:06. > :55:10.came to London after university it was a declining British city. It's
:55:11. > :55:15.now one of the... If not the... Global cities of the world. It's a
:55:16. > :55:19.shame Boris Johnson got voted out with regard to the water cannons. If
:55:20. > :55:23.I was Mayor of London tomorrow I would have the streets washed with
:55:24. > :55:31.water cannons. The whole town, Andrew, needs an enema. There is no
:55:32. > :55:35.doubt about it. You have been complaining about racism in Ukip. I
:55:36. > :55:42.understand you are not saying the party is institutionally racist. And
:55:43. > :55:45.it's not aimed at the leader. I understand. You've had a few what I
:55:46. > :55:51.might call politically incorrect positions. You said a gay couple
:55:52. > :55:55.adopting a child was abuse. I'm entitled to my personal Christian
:55:56. > :56:01.opinions. It's not very diverse or inclusive. If you claim to purport
:56:02. > :56:03.to represent the people, a certain amount of people in various
:56:04. > :56:08.different areas that need to be heard and you carry their voice. You
:56:09. > :56:12.said you were dismayed that former boxing promoter Frank Maloney, now
:56:13. > :56:21.Kellie Maloney, had a six change. I knew the guy well. I wish him all
:56:22. > :56:32.the best as a woman. You are not dismayed any more? I'm not dismayed.
:56:33. > :56:37.I'm sad at the loss of Frank Maloney. He was a great man. Has
:56:38. > :56:42.Winston McKenzie been badly done by? It seems to be a bruised ego. The
:56:43. > :56:56.only person with a justifiable bruised ego over the candidate for
:56:57. > :56:59.Ukip for London mayor is Susan. She had a brief couple of days as party
:57:00. > :57:01.leader, had name recognition, and would have been ideal candidate to
:57:02. > :57:07.become fifth in the elections. Which is what will happen. I would love to
:57:08. > :57:13.have seen a London mayoral candidate with the slogan, London is a dump.
:57:14. > :57:19.It would have been great. If we are to talk the truth, speak the truth,
:57:20. > :57:24.you go around London, and many of us don't walk with our heads down, but
:57:25. > :57:29.London specifically is becoming the most atrocious place with regards to
:57:30. > :57:33.hygiene. But it's also becoming a place that is welcoming to people of
:57:34. > :57:37.many different backgrounds and people of different sexual
:57:38. > :57:44.orientation. It's a liberal city with a small letter L. I'm
:57:45. > :57:48.incredibly offended by somebody who uses God as a get out clause for
:57:49. > :57:57.homophobia. What party will you join now? The Greens! My intention is to
:57:58. > :58:00.support Ukip policies and stand as an independent mayoral candidate. If
:58:01. > :58:14.any sponsors out there want to back me, come on board, join the Winston
:58:15. > :58:17.McKenzie. If you stop talking, I will give you a mug.
:58:18. > :58:20.Well, we asked Ukip for an interview to respond to Winston's claims
:58:21. > :58:23.However, the party did send us a statement.
:58:24. > :58:27."We are sorry to say goodbye to Winston after six eventful years,
:58:28. > :58:29.and saddened by the manner of his leaving.
:58:30. > :58:32.We have enjoyed working with him, and he has kept us busy defending
:58:33. > :58:35.his right to free speech, his imaginative schemes and his highly
:58:36. > :58:37.We will miss him, and wish him well."
:58:38. > :58:41.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:42. > :58:43.The question was whose giant effigy was burnt last night
:58:44. > :58:45.at the infamous annual bonfire celebrations in the usually peaceful
:58:46. > :58:48.I think Nigel Farage. I think it was Cameron.
:58:49. > :58:51.A giant effigy of David Cameron and a dead pig's head was burnt
:58:52. > :58:53.last night in Lewes at their bonfire celebrations.
:58:54. > :58:56.The 15 foot puppet of the Prime Minister was wearing nothing
:58:57. > :59:02.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:59:03. > :59:05.MUSIC: Lust For Life by Iggy Pop
:59:06. > :59:07.There is a place where music comes to life,
:59:08. > :59:19.With one foot in the past and one in the future.
:59:20. > :59:23...could be the best record you've ever heard.