:00:36. > :00:38.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.There's more money for the spies at GCHQ
:00:42. > :00:43.in the wake of the Paris terror attacks.
:00:44. > :00:46.But as George Osborne agrees billions of pounds worth
:00:47. > :00:50.of cuts elsewhere how hard will he hit the police budget?
:00:51. > :00:53.There's trouble brewing for Jeremy Corbyn as he questions the
:00:54. > :00:57.right of the British police to shoot to kill a heavily-armed terrorist
:00:58. > :01:01.and wonders whether the air strike targetting Jihadi John was legal.
:01:02. > :01:06.Is this how a Labour Leader should react to a terrorist outrage?
:01:07. > :01:08.At least one of the Paris attackers is alleged
:01:09. > :01:11.to have entered the European Union posing as a Syrian refugee.
:01:12. > :01:16.Is it time to close the EU's borders in the face of the terrorist threat?
:01:17. > :01:20.And how to counter extremism here in the UK.
:01:21. > :01:29.How do we guard against the threat of more home-grown terrorism?
:01:30. > :01:34.And with us for the whole of the programme today is the former
:01:35. > :01:37.Chief Crown Prosecutor in the North West of England, Nazir Afzal.
:01:38. > :01:43.First this morning, how should an opposition leader
:01:44. > :01:47.react to events like the terrorist atrocity in Paris?
:01:48. > :01:49.Well, yesterday, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,
:01:50. > :01:53.did a round of broadcast interviews in which he was asked about security
:01:54. > :02:03.But some of his comments have gone down badly with his own MPs.
:02:04. > :02:09.In a BBC interview yesterday, Mr Corbyn warned I was not happy with
:02:10. > :02:13.the police policy of shoot-to-kill with a terror attack. He warned any
:02:14. > :02:17.such policy could be dangerous and counterproductive. In a separate
:02:18. > :02:21.interview, the Labour Leader questioned the legality of the drone
:02:22. > :02:26.strike which is thought to have killed the terrorist known as Jihadi
:02:27. > :02:31.John. He said, I'm awaiting an explanation where the legal basis
:02:32. > :02:36.was for that incident. Mr Corbyn's links to Stop the War Coalition.
:02:37. > :02:41.Particularly after the article at the weekend in which a group
:02:42. > :02:46.insisted Paris had reaped the whirlwind of western support for
:02:47. > :02:53.extremist violence in the middle east. Last night, an MP told the BBC
:02:54. > :02:57.I've never seen a PLP meeting with that ding rye of discontent voiced.
:02:58. > :03:02.Question after question, each devastating. He was reported to have
:03:03. > :03:06.been criticised by prominent MPs on shoot-to-kill. Dan Jarvis on his
:03:07. > :03:11.Jihadi John comments. What he said about reconsidering air strikes in
:03:12. > :03:16.Iraq by John Woodcock. To add to the Labour Leader's woes. This morning,
:03:17. > :03:20.Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn said it is perfectly reasonable for
:03:21. > :03:22.police to shoot those who are a threat to life.
:03:23. > :03:30.She is now looking at ways of tackling Europe's refugee crisis.
:03:31. > :03:35.You reportedly asked Jeremy Corbyn last night for reassurance the
:03:36. > :03:38.Labour Party would continue to support shoot-to-kill. That means
:03:39. > :03:41.the police can shoot terrorists when they pose an immediate threat to
:03:42. > :03:46.life. Has he given you that assurance? My point is we've a long
:03:47. > :03:50.standing legal framework which allows for the use of lethal force
:03:51. > :03:55.in situations where you have imminent threat to life. Terrorists
:03:56. > :04:00.on the streets killing people. That, I think, that legal framework is
:04:01. > :04:03.important and needs to continue. I understand there's been reports in
:04:04. > :04:08.the papers today Jeremy has confirmed he also supports that now.
:04:09. > :04:14.I think, obviously I disagree with what he said yesterday. He said I'm
:04:15. > :04:18.not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general. It is quite
:04:19. > :04:22.dangerous and can often be counterproductive. Was he wrong?
:04:23. > :04:26.You've very serious threats. If people are being killed, you saw,
:04:27. > :04:30.think of what happened in the Bataclan. If you think about the
:04:31. > :04:34.kinds of terrorists we are dealing with, suicide pommers and so on,
:04:35. > :04:39.there are times when the police need to make mayor own operational
:04:40. > :04:43.decision -- suicide bombers. The police have to make the decisions
:04:44. > :04:46.about those circumstances and when in those circumstances lethal force
:04:47. > :04:50.is justified. I think everybody would expect that when you want to
:04:51. > :04:55.protect innocent lives and are dealing with this kind of threat.
:04:56. > :05:00.Understanding everyone's confirmed that continues to to be our
:05:01. > :05:05.position. It needs to be. Just to be clear, in your mind, Jeremy Corbyn,
:05:06. > :05:10.has he personally said to you, Yvette Cooper, you wanted a
:05:11. > :05:14.reassurance about this, I do support the police's shoot-to-kill policy in
:05:15. > :05:18.those circumstances? No, I haven't spoken to him today. Would you like
:05:19. > :05:24.that reassurance in such a sensitive time. If there was any people were
:05:25. > :05:30.misconstruing what he meant that he's clear about it? It is good to
:05:31. > :05:34.have clarity. But, let's be honest, Jo, this is so important and so
:05:35. > :05:40.serious I don't want this to be about who said what to who. He's the
:05:41. > :05:44.leader of Her Majesty's opposition. My understanding is this remains the
:05:45. > :05:47.Labour Party's policy. I'm clear it has to remain Labour's policy
:05:48. > :05:52.supporting the police and security services in a very difficult job
:05:53. > :05:55.which they need to be able to do to keep us all safe. There are always
:05:56. > :05:59.safeguards with the use of lethal force. There have to be
:06:00. > :06:02.investigations whenever it's used, when that happens. You have to be
:06:03. > :06:06.able to keep people safe. It is important that we should continue to
:06:07. > :06:12.support that. Hilary Benn said this morning. Shoot-to-kill policy was
:06:13. > :06:16.perfectly reasonable. In your mind, they are now one, oven though 24
:06:17. > :06:19.hours ago, the Shadow Foreign Secretary and the Labour Leader
:06:20. > :06:23.seemed to hold different view points? I'm not a member of the
:06:24. > :06:29.Shadow Cabinet. I can't speak for Jeremy on this. You heard those two
:06:30. > :06:33.views? You've heard my view clearly. Jeremy Corbyn also came under fire
:06:34. > :06:39.last night at the meeting of Labour MPs because of hi associations with
:06:40. > :06:44.the stop of war coalition. There was a recent blog post now deleted
:06:45. > :06:48.saying Paris was reaping the whirlwind of western foreign policy.
:06:49. > :06:53.Jeremy Corbyn was chair of the Stop the War Coalition. Should he
:06:54. > :06:59.distance himself from stop the war? What they said was appalling.
:07:00. > :07:03.Clearly, nobody thinks it was Paris or France that was responsible for
:07:04. > :07:07.what happened. It was terrorists who were responsible. At a time when so
:07:08. > :07:13.many people are grieving for those they have lost and for the attack to
:07:14. > :07:17.our way of life as well. I think it is really important we show
:07:18. > :07:20.solidarity for the people of Paris and France. That's what the Labour
:07:21. > :07:24.Party was doing yesterday in Parliament. That's what people
:07:25. > :07:29.across Britain will be doing tonight when we have the England v France
:07:30. > :07:35.game as well. Should he distance himself further? He's due to speak
:07:36. > :07:40.at a Christmas fund-raising for Stop the War Coalition. It's not what I
:07:41. > :07:47.would do. Jeremy has to speak for himself. Sure, but as a member of
:07:48. > :07:53.the Labour parliamentary party, are you happy to see him speak for Stop
:07:54. > :07:56.the War Coalition? Jo, I don't think anybody should be associated with
:07:57. > :08:03.statements like that. They are appalling. There is a wider issue
:08:04. > :08:07.about the very serious threat in terms of extremism and the challenge
:08:08. > :08:13.from Isis to Europe and Britain and how we respond. We have to respond
:08:14. > :08:18.by having stronger security. That sense of solidarity. Not allowing
:08:19. > :08:24.terrorists to divide us. Not allowing them to pick us apart. They
:08:25. > :08:29.want to sew fear, division and hatred. That's the real challenge.
:08:30. > :08:33.Europe has a lot more to do to be able to respond to this threat. As
:08:34. > :08:37.you say, you want to see a united front in terms of the response to
:08:38. > :08:41.what happened in Paris and to terrorism around the world. What do
:08:42. > :08:45.you make then of Jeremy Corbyn's statement it would have been far
:08:46. > :08:49.better if Jihadi John had been arrested rather than hit by a drone
:08:50. > :08:53.strike? We know in these circumstances, it wasn't possible to
:08:54. > :08:59.arrest him. Was that statement naive in your mind or misguided? I think,
:09:00. > :09:05.Jo, there's a wider issue here about what it is that Europe needs to do.
:09:06. > :09:09.That is what we should be talking about. Further security measures
:09:10. > :09:15.that need to be taken, the support the Government needs to put in place
:09:16. > :09:19.and is rightly doing in terms of support for the intelligence and
:09:20. > :09:25.security agencies. They need to go further in terms of support for
:09:26. > :09:29.neighbourhood policing. That local intelligence is immensely important
:09:30. > :09:33.and prevention work. The scale of cuts to policing would be the wrong
:09:34. > :09:38.approach. I hoe they are now rethinking that. This had is the
:09:39. > :09:41.wider European co-operation that needs to take place. Including
:09:42. > :09:45.dealing with the refer ghee crisis which is being exploited by
:09:46. > :09:51.terrorists as well. Right, but, it does come back to the leader of
:09:52. > :09:55.opposition being clear and representing the views of the
:09:56. > :09:59.parliamentary party. Are the events in Paris likely to change your
:10:00. > :10:05.party's position, or should they, on air strikes in Syria? I think the
:10:06. > :10:11.thing we've still not seen from the Government is actually any proposal
:10:12. > :10:17.on Syria. I've backed and I think the Labour Party is right to back,
:10:18. > :10:20.the air strikes at the request of the democratically elected Iraqi
:10:21. > :10:24.Government against Isis in Iraq. The challenge with Syria is it is much
:10:25. > :10:29.more complicated because of President Assad and many of the
:10:30. > :10:33.refugees are also fleeing from Assad. It is clear the Prime
:10:34. > :10:38.Minister is not going to bring forward a proposal until and unless
:10:39. > :10:41.he has the support of enough MPs, not only on his own side but
:10:42. > :10:46.particularly from Labour. Should Labour now get behind some sort of
:10:47. > :10:53.proposal or not if it comes forward to bomb IS in Syria? I think it
:10:54. > :10:57.entirely doo depends on what the proposal is. We've not seen a
:10:58. > :11:02.proposal. You have to look at the consequences of any proposal. Have a
:11:03. > :11:06.comprehensive strategy to deal with the conflict, the wider civil war in
:11:07. > :11:11.Syria. We've not seen that. We are still waiting for the Government to
:11:12. > :11:17.come forward with any proposals. Should be it be a free vote? Depends
:11:18. > :11:21.on the proposal. Many of us will make our decisions based on what is
:11:22. > :11:27.the right thing to do. What was the atmosphere like? We've heard from
:11:28. > :11:31.the Labour MPs after that meeting in the House of Commons. Some of the
:11:32. > :11:35.backbenchers felt it was the worst meeting they'd ever witnessed in
:11:36. > :11:39.terms of response to Jeremy Corbyn's views on Jihadi John, talking about
:11:40. > :11:45.shoot-to-kill and on air strikes in Syria. What do you say? I think, if
:11:46. > :11:48.this is a meeting for the parliamentary Labour Party that the
:11:49. > :11:53.press are not invited to. But Labour MPs come out and... I'm not talking
:11:54. > :11:57.about the details. I've told you my views on the issues around the use
:11:58. > :12:02.of Leith at force in the face of a terrorist threat, you have to be
:12:03. > :12:06.strong and firm. And the issues I've disafreed with Jeremy on. I can tell
:12:07. > :12:09.you that. It would not be right for me to talk about the kinds of
:12:10. > :12:14.meetings and discussions that take place. Again, I still come back to,
:12:15. > :12:18.I think, the wider issue for us as a country. This is not simply about
:12:19. > :12:22.one meeting of a Parliamentary Labour Party. This is the wider
:12:23. > :12:26.challenge for Britain and for Europe which I don't think we are yet
:12:27. > :12:32.meeting and yet responding to given the pressures we face. It will lead
:12:33. > :12:36.to the Conservative charge saying Labour cannot be trusted to keeping
:12:37. > :12:39.the country safe and that will stick according to the Prime Minister,
:12:40. > :12:43.George Osborne as long as Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour? I don't think
:12:44. > :12:50.that is the view of the Labour Party. Yesterday, you heard Andy
:12:51. > :12:53.burn hum responding to -- Andy Burnham responding to Theresa May
:12:54. > :12:59.about her support for the security agencies. We'll stand firm with the
:13:00. > :13:04.Government about that. We have to. It is about making people safe and
:13:05. > :13:09.keeping them safe. Part of that is about standing up against the
:13:10. > :13:14.divisions the terrorists seek to sew. Making sure you can take action
:13:15. > :13:20.to prevent extremism and terrorism. You mentioned the cuts to police
:13:21. > :13:26.funding and extra spending going to spies and intellingence services.
:13:27. > :13:30.George Osborne said he'll double the funding against cybercrime. Should
:13:31. > :13:34.Labour match that pledge? Yes, absolutely right to. This is the new
:13:35. > :13:40.kind of threat that we also face in terms of the cyber attack. It is an
:13:41. > :13:47.important threat to Britain. I think the wider thing about making sure
:13:48. > :13:52.you have that intelligence about where imflint threats might be --
:13:53. > :13:57.imminent threats might be. That's about sharing information across
:13:58. > :14:02.Europe. What do you make of Nigel Farage's comments last night? That
:14:03. > :14:07.the UK Muslim population has conflicted royalties? It is an
:14:08. > :14:13.appalling thing to say. The Muslim community were one of the first to
:14:14. > :14:20.be out condemning the appalling bash rich in Paris. -- barberism in
:14:21. > :14:25.Paris. Muslims in Beirut who have experienced the brunt of the Isis
:14:26. > :14:30.attack and brutality, many of whom are fleeing from that brutality as
:14:31. > :14:35.well. It is Muslim parents in Britain who are seeking to make sure
:14:36. > :14:39.that their children are not being groomed and radicalised as well.
:14:40. > :14:44.Isis is a perversion of Islam. I think the problem with what Nigel
:14:45. > :14:47.Farage said is, this is playing into the hands of extremists by going
:14:48. > :14:51.along this track of trying to divide us and pit us against each other
:14:52. > :14:55.when we should stand firm against such extremism. Just to go back to
:14:56. > :15:01.the initial questions on shoot-to-kill. Are you clear in your
:15:02. > :15:05.mind now with what has been said by Labour, they are happy to support
:15:06. > :15:10.the shoot-to-kill policy in general? I agree with Yvette. The view, I've
:15:11. > :15:14.spent 25 years telling police how they should behave. Their
:15:15. > :15:19.operational matters are up to them. We have the best armed officers in
:15:20. > :15:23.the world. They rarely use firearms. They should be doing their job, awe
:15:24. > :15:32.Lou them without politicians interfering in their jobs. What
:15:33. > :15:35.Yvette said about terrorism, set to divide, we need clarity from the
:15:36. > :15:43.Labour Party about what they want to do on this subject. These terrorists
:15:44. > :15:45.don't represent Islam or anybody. We need Labour Party to say this is
:15:46. > :15:49.something we should do about them. Now, Belgium has raised
:15:50. > :15:52.its terror alert this morning as the hunt continues for the surviving
:15:53. > :15:54.perpetrators of Friday's attack in Paris and their accomplices. The
:15:55. > :15:57.Government here is setting out its In a speech at the Mansion House
:15:58. > :16:02.in the City of London last night, the Prime Minister said Britain
:16:03. > :16:04.must summon the spirit of World War II if it is to defeat what
:16:05. > :16:07.he called the Isil thugs. It's not just about the amount of
:16:08. > :16:13.money we spend or the size of our forces, it's also about our ability
:16:14. > :16:16.to deploy them quickly, with the We've seen how vital drones are
:16:17. > :16:22.in the fight against Isil. So, with this extra money,
:16:23. > :16:26.we're doubling our fleet of drones. We know we need the ability
:16:27. > :16:32.to carry out air strikes. So this money will provide
:16:33. > :16:34.for more fighter aircraft. We want to increase the capabilities
:16:35. > :16:37.of our brilliant special forces. There will be
:16:38. > :16:40.a ?2 billion programme of new We will maintain our continuous
:16:41. > :16:46.at sea nuclear deterrent. We'll also invest in
:16:47. > :16:49.a new generation of cyber defences to block and disrupt attacks before
:16:50. > :16:55.they can harm our United Kingdom. This morning, the Chancellor, George
:16:56. > :17:00.Osborne, has been visiting GCHQ in Cheltenham, where he's been warning
:17:01. > :17:05.against the danger of so-called Islamic State launching a cyber
:17:06. > :17:07.attack, and promised millions of pounds of extra funding
:17:08. > :17:09.for the security services Isil's murderous brutality has
:17:10. > :17:36.a strong digital element. At a time when so many others are
:17:37. > :17:39.using the internet to enhance freedom and give expression to
:17:40. > :17:41.liberal values and creativity, Isil are already using
:17:42. > :17:45.the internet for hideous propaganda purposes, for radicalisation,
:17:46. > :17:47.for operational planning too. They have not so far been able to
:17:48. > :17:50.use it to kill people by attacking our infrastructure
:17:51. > :17:52.through cyber attack. They do not yet have
:17:53. > :17:54.that capability. and we know they're doing
:17:55. > :17:57.their best to build it. So when we talk about tackling Isil,
:17:58. > :18:00.that means tackling their cyber threat as well
:18:01. > :18:02.as the threat of their guns And earlier this morning,
:18:03. > :18:07.the Chancellor announced that he has provisionally agreed cuts with
:18:08. > :18:09.another seven government departments ahead
:18:10. > :18:14.of next week's spending review. Those are the Cabinet Office,
:18:15. > :18:17.the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Offices,
:18:18. > :18:21.HM Revenue and Customs and both the Work and Pensions and Energy
:18:22. > :18:26.and Climate Change departments. They've all agreed to reduce
:18:27. > :18:30.spending by 6% a year which adds up to a real-term
:18:31. > :18:37.reduction of 21% by 2019/20. The Chancellor has now reached
:18:38. > :18:40.provisional agreements with over half
:18:41. > :18:43.of Whitehall departments totalling more than ?4 billion of savings
:18:44. > :18:48.by the end of the Parliament. And Adam Fleming has more
:18:49. > :19:00.on the Chancellor's announcement. So, is he well on the way to getting
:19:01. > :19:04.the savings he wants? Let's look at the numbers. As you said, the
:19:05. > :19:08.Chancellor has now reached a preliminary agreements of about ?4
:19:09. > :19:12.billion worth of savings. But he said earlier this year that he wants
:19:13. > :19:17.to reach a total of ?20 billion of savings by 2020. So far be it from
:19:18. > :19:21.me to say how he is doing, but let's compare the four we have got with
:19:22. > :19:26.the 20 wants to get at the end of this process. You're right that even
:19:27. > :19:30.though he has settled with more than half of the government departments
:19:31. > :19:34.in Whitehall, in 11 out of 20, that means they're still some big
:19:35. > :19:39.spenders who he has not done a deal with - the Home Office, the MoD, the
:19:40. > :19:43.health department, the NHS budget, which he says he will increase, but
:19:44. > :19:48.we are not sure by how much and when. And as usual with the spending
:19:49. > :19:51.review, we are getting big numbers, but not a lot of detail. For
:19:52. > :19:56.example, the Chancellor was saying today that the money saved by HMRC
:19:57. > :20:00.will come from the digitisation of tax collection. No more detail than
:20:01. > :20:04.that. Interestingly, today shows that there was an end to the dispute
:20:05. > :20:08.between George Osborne and Ian Duncan Smith. The welfare secretary
:20:09. > :20:12.was concerned that his budget for universal credit was going to be
:20:13. > :20:14.ready to pay for the delay in tax credits, and he threatened to
:20:15. > :20:19.resign. It looks like that threat has gone away, because they have
:20:20. > :20:23.done a deal. There was also an announcement of more money for the
:20:24. > :20:28.intelligence services, which has come after the Paris attacks. But
:20:29. > :20:32.cuts to police funding? Yes, the police forces in England are
:20:33. > :20:35.expecting big cuts to their budget. Bernard Hogan-Howe, the commission
:20:36. > :20:41.of the Met, is saying he expects cuts over the next five years of up
:20:42. > :20:45.to ?800 million, which means he would have to sack maybe 5000 police
:20:46. > :20:50.officers in London, which sounds like a lot. That is how the Police
:20:51. > :20:53.Federation see it. They represent the rank and file and they have
:20:54. > :20:57.released a statement saying that cuts of that level would jeopardise
:20:58. > :21:04.their ability to protect the public in the UK in the event of a Parisian
:21:05. > :21:08.style terrorist attack. This issue is starting to creep into the House
:21:09. > :21:13.of Commons. Yesterday, after the Home Secretary made her statement
:21:14. > :21:15.about the Paris attacks, a couple of Tory backbenchers started making
:21:16. > :21:20.noises along those lines, that they were worried about the budgets for
:21:21. > :21:23.things like community policing. It was interesting that when George
:21:24. > :21:27.Osborne was answering questions after his speech at GCHQ today, he
:21:28. > :21:28.kept quiet about the idea of whether he would be protecting or cutting
:21:29. > :21:29.police budgets. The Conservative MP, Tom Tugenhadt,
:21:30. > :21:46.is here with us now. Let's talk about those potential
:21:47. > :21:50.cuts to policing, which Bernard Hogan-Howe says would cut front line
:21:51. > :21:54.policing. Is that what we should be doing at a time like this? It is
:21:55. > :21:57.staggering. I have worked with police up and down the country and I
:21:58. > :22:00.have worked with the prosecution service for 25 years, and all those
:22:01. > :22:07.agencies Arlene. There is nothing more they can give. -- and they
:22:08. > :22:11.Arlene. The back-office operation has been decimated. What were
:22:12. > :22:15.talking about extremism, the best eyes and ears of the community
:22:16. > :22:19.officers, the PCSOs, and I'm hearing that all of these police officers
:22:20. > :22:24.are talking about cutting those numbers. That is putting people at
:22:25. > :22:30.risk. We cannot have a situation where public safety is diminished in
:22:31. > :22:33.this way. According to Nazir Afzal, if those who are the eyes and ears
:22:34. > :22:36.on the street time when terrorism is on heightened alert, it would be a
:22:37. > :22:41.mistake. Should your government be cutting police numbers? We must work
:22:42. > :22:46.together on this. Terrorism is not an issue solely for the security
:22:47. > :22:50.forces, be it the military or GCHQ or the police, nor is it the job of
:22:51. > :22:56.the community alone. It is the job of everyone to work together. What
:22:57. > :23:02.is particularly important is, when young men, and sadly, it is
:23:03. > :23:04.particularly young men, are getting radicalised in different parts of
:23:05. > :23:09.our community, it is essential that community leaders are families,
:23:10. > :23:15.relatives and friends highlight this. There is no way we can put a
:23:16. > :23:19.policeman on every street corner, and nor would we want to. So we have
:23:20. > :23:23.to engage with the community more closely, and we have to remind the
:23:24. > :23:26.community that they also have a responsibility in protecting their
:23:27. > :23:30.young men and women from these people. The most trusted police
:23:31. > :23:37.officers are those who work in those communities. People do not win
:23:38. > :23:41.counterterrorism helplines, they talk to an officer that they
:23:42. > :23:46.recognise and trust. If they are not there, we will not get that
:23:47. > :23:49.information. They are there. But you are going to cut them if the
:23:50. > :23:53.proposal goes through that George Osborne has put through the cuts to
:23:54. > :23:58.unprotected departments like the Home Office. Should they be cut? I
:23:59. > :24:00.am not going to tell the police commissioners for the whole of
:24:01. > :24:05.England, Wales and Scotland how to do their jobs. It is for them to
:24:06. > :24:10.prioritise. I am asking you about George Osborne. You are asking if
:24:11. > :24:15.they should cut individual officers. It is not for me to tell police
:24:16. > :24:18.commissioners how to do their jobs. That is why we have police and crime
:24:19. > :24:24.commissioners who will be elected next year to prioritise the
:24:25. > :24:27.allocation of resources. Nazir is right that community engagement is
:24:28. > :24:31.the front line of defence against terrorism, but that is not alone.
:24:32. > :24:37.The community police officers stand with the community. The community
:24:38. > :24:42.have a fundamental response ability, because we police by
:24:43. > :24:47.content in this country. We are not a bitter Tory or state. We need
:24:48. > :24:50.community leaders, be they imams or leaders of community groups or be
:24:51. > :24:53.they family and friends, we need that to be the eyes and ears,
:24:54. > :24:57.because they are protecting themselves and us as citizens. Is
:24:58. > :25:01.that because there will not be enough police? I must get an answer
:25:02. > :25:05.from you on whether you think, in the wake of the Paris attacks,
:25:06. > :25:10.should Lord Osborne rethink his cuts to police funding? I have taken your
:25:11. > :25:13.point that it is up to police commissioners to decide response
:25:14. > :25:19.booties, but Bernard Hogan-Howe says he would have to cut up to 5000
:25:20. > :25:24.officers. He did not say that, the federation said that. It is up to
:25:25. > :25:27.Bernard Hogan-Howe. On LBC, he said it is a massive change and as a
:25:28. > :25:32.result, I worry about the safety of London. We think we may lose up to
:25:33. > :25:37.8000 police officers. I did not hear that interview, I only heard it
:25:38. > :25:42.reported by the federation. It is up to Bernard Hogan-Howe to decide how
:25:43. > :25:46.to allocate the resources he has. I will not lecture him on how to do
:25:47. > :25:49.it. I welcome that he said he will put more police on the streets of
:25:50. > :25:54.London, and I particularly welcome the investment in intelligence,
:25:55. > :25:57.because if you want to address this, intelligence is fundamental. Why is
:25:58. > :26:01.it more important for intelligence to get funding than the police on
:26:02. > :26:07.the streets? It is a combination. But you are giving more to one and
:26:08. > :26:10.taking money from the other. No, we are addressing different aspects.
:26:11. > :26:14.The intelligence services have been underinvested in and I welcome the
:26:15. > :26:17.Chancellor's investment, because a lot of this problem is coming from
:26:18. > :26:24.overseas. We have spoken about Syria in the past. The actions of foreign
:26:25. > :26:30.criminals in lecturing, preaching and spreading hate through the cyber
:26:31. > :26:33.highways is a serious threat. I can only take from you that you agree
:26:34. > :26:37.that there should be some cuts and that the police will have to manage
:26:38. > :26:41.their resources. One of the points that Tom Tugenhadt said was that
:26:42. > :26:46.even if you put a lease officer on every corner of every street -- a
:26:47. > :26:50.police officer, they had lots in Paris before the attacks, but it
:26:51. > :26:56.will not stop this sort of terrorism if they are soft targets. Well, they
:26:57. > :26:59.have to be lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time. But it is a
:27:00. > :27:05.postcode lottery. In Bristol, they have done good work in local
:27:06. > :27:10.community engagement. One terrorist was grassed up by the local mosque.
:27:11. > :27:13.That is the kind of information that comes from having good
:27:14. > :27:17.relationships. If we do not have the officers to have those relationships
:27:18. > :27:21.with, I worry about the future. You make it sound as though the only
:27:22. > :27:25.person with whom the mosque can have the relationship is the police.
:27:26. > :27:34.Nobody is talking about removing that. There is a series of people
:27:35. > :27:36.with whom we engage every day. I have people coming into my
:27:37. > :27:43.constituency surgery, raising different issues. Raising issues
:27:44. > :27:48.like this is essential across the community. But intelligence has to
:27:49. > :27:55.turn into evidence. Somebody cannot just say, -- somebody has to say, I
:27:56. > :27:59.have seen something, I will raise evidence against that individual. It
:28:00. > :28:01.cannot happen if there are fewer police. I do not accept that.
:28:02. > :28:04.The UK Parliament's all-party group for Kurdistan has been visiting
:28:05. > :28:07.the Peshmerga in Iraq just a few miles from the front line
:28:08. > :28:12.The Labour MP John Woodcock was part of that group of MPs.
:28:13. > :28:15.We will speak to him in a moment, but first let's take a look
:28:16. > :28:21.It's been a real privilege to be taken out here by the Commander
:28:22. > :28:28.They make the point to us that they are getting essential air support
:28:29. > :28:35.from the UK, from the RAF, and training and advice from the UK
:28:36. > :28:38.But they are desperately short of kit.
:28:39. > :28:44.They know that if they fail in this fight and Daesh continue,
:28:45. > :28:46.ultimately, it will be foreign fighters who will
:28:47. > :28:50.be going back to the UK to take what they've learned here, the extremism,
:28:51. > :29:00.military tactics, back to countries such as the UK.
:29:01. > :29:05.It's a huge privilege to be able to see this, but the UK
:29:06. > :29:12.That is the stark message they have asked us to take back to the UK.
:29:13. > :29:22.Remind us who the Kurds are and the areas of land they inhabit and the
:29:23. > :29:28.fronts they are fighting is on? The Iraqi Kurds are in the north of
:29:29. > :29:35.Iraq. They were systematically persecuted in the most vile ways by
:29:36. > :29:41.Saddam Hussein. After the liberation, is based in it, of Iraq
:29:42. > :29:47.from Saddam, there were given a semi-autonomous devolved region
:29:48. > :29:54.within Iraq. Their military force, the Peshmerga, are the troops who
:29:55. > :29:57.are fighting. They are a proficient force and it was a privilege to see
:29:58. > :30:05.what they were doing on the front line. I hope that broadcasting what
:30:06. > :30:08.we saw back to the UK helps dispel the understandable misconception
:30:09. > :30:16.that there is nothing going on in Iraq except for the odd bomb being
:30:17. > :30:22.dropped by the RAF. You could see that just a few kilometres away from
:30:23. > :30:27.the Daesh front line, the Peshmerga rely on the protection in the air
:30:28. > :30:32.cover that the RAF give. They are fighting a difficult fight and they
:30:33. > :30:36.hope for more from the UK and other nations.
:30:37. > :30:43.We're going on to the proposal air strikes if it comes before the
:30:44. > :30:47.Commons in a moment. The Kurds neat more kit. David Cameron said last
:30:48. > :30:51.year Britain would arm the Kurds. Did you see evidence of that? They
:30:52. > :30:57.have some. But the message again and again was they are really lacking.
:30:58. > :31:05.Actually, they say to us in stark terms, we are grateful for the UK's
:31:06. > :31:10.involvement. They kept repeating how grateful they were. That we were
:31:11. > :31:15.part of the coalition to defeat Saddam Hussein. But actually, the UK
:31:16. > :31:19.is giving amongst the least in terms of resources for their fight. I
:31:20. > :31:26.think the reluctance from the Foreign Office, from the UK
:31:27. > :31:31.Government, is that it doesn't end up fuelling destab I willisation in
:31:32. > :31:38.the region. Particularly Turkey. When you look into this closely, you
:31:39. > :31:43.need to be honest, there isn't really a functioning state called
:31:44. > :31:49.Iraq at the moment. That has broken down into a Baghdad Government run
:31:50. > :31:53.by a Shia force which isn't representing the Sunni and the
:31:54. > :31:58.Kurdish areas. There does need to be change. In the near term, I think
:31:59. > :32:03.it's so important these people, they make the case, they're fighting on
:32:04. > :32:06.all our behalf. If they don't win this fight, then foreign fighters
:32:07. > :32:10.can go back into countries like the UK and we need to support them
:32:11. > :32:13.better than we have been doing. What about another vote in the House of
:32:14. > :32:17.Commons on air strikes over Syria? Would you like to see that brought
:32:18. > :32:25.forward now? Iity it's important we do more. I've always said being in
:32:26. > :32:32.Iraq, being part of that operation, but not going over what is a purely
:32:33. > :32:38.theoretical border, is illogical. We said it is legal to do so. Provide
:32:39. > :32:41.logistical support. Where it is important David Cameron comes
:32:42. > :32:48.forward today, hopefully, as soon as possible, is in the sense of how
:32:49. > :32:52.this military involvement fits in with a wider diplomatic engagement
:32:53. > :32:58.where we cannot allow to happen to beat back Daesh but leave the vacuum
:32:59. > :33:03.which we left that Daesh was able to fill in the Sunni regions of Iraq.
:33:04. > :33:07.To be clear, you would back a proposal that David Cameron brought
:33:08. > :33:13.forward to say we need to use British military force, not much of
:33:14. > :33:19.it, but British military force to bomb IS is Syria or do agree with
:33:20. > :33:23.Hilary Benn about having strict pre-conditions before supporting it
:33:24. > :33:30.You would have to see the exact detail. My sense is yes, I would
:33:31. > :33:37.back even that limited increased incursion by the RAF strikes over
:33:38. > :33:47.the border into and ultimate targeting Raqa which is the head of
:33:48. > :33:52.extremists, the HQ. I think many of my colleagues will want to see more
:33:53. > :33:59.in terms of diplomatic effort before they do that. I want to see it as
:34:00. > :34:03.well. But even if it is the limited proposal, there will be several of
:34:04. > :34:08.us whether will be prepared to back that. Are there any circumstances in
:34:09. > :34:16.which the UK can participate without a Commons vote? That is a wider
:34:17. > :34:20.question. That will have consequences right across a number
:34:21. > :34:25.of military involvement. I think for this engagement, clearly, I don't
:34:26. > :34:29.think there is a prospect of that. Whether we would relook after this
:34:30. > :34:33.about the balance that has changed over the last ten years, well, that
:34:34. > :34:37.may be worth doing. Clearly, the Prime Minister is clear that he will
:34:38. > :34:41.not proceed in a substantive way with direct involvement without a
:34:42. > :34:45.vote. That's the reality we are looking at. What do you make of the
:34:46. > :34:50.Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn's association with stop of the war
:34:51. > :34:55.coalition? There seems to be unhappiness from some of your
:34:56. > :34:59.colleagues particularly following the blog post where Stop the War
:35:00. > :35:03.Coalition were reaping the whirlwind of return foreign policy. What would
:35:04. > :35:06.you say about Jeremy Corbyn's association with Stop the War
:35:07. > :35:11.Coalition? I've always been troubled by his association. That blog post
:35:12. > :35:14.was striking not from the fact it was coming from left field and
:35:15. > :35:18.unusual from the organisation. That is the message they've given all
:35:19. > :35:23.through. We have to call this for what. Blaming the people of France
:35:24. > :35:31.or the French Government or the UK Government for the killing of French
:35:32. > :35:35.or UK civilians is akin at the time of the Second World War, blaming the
:35:36. > :35:38.Jewish people for their deaths under the Nazis. It is that serious. I
:35:39. > :35:42.really hope Jeremy and others will make clear they will not accept any
:35:43. > :35:45.of that sentiment within the British Labour Party. John Woodcock, thank
:35:46. > :35:46.you. Now, the Home Secretary,
:35:47. > :35:49.Theresa May, has said Britain would take 20,000 Syrian refugees over
:35:50. > :35:51.the next five years, and Our correspondent
:35:52. > :36:08.James Shaw is there. James, can you hear me? Yes, I can.
:36:09. > :36:13.We expect the refugees to arrive at Glasgow airport within the next
:36:14. > :36:18.couple of hours. A plane will touchdown on the apron behind me.
:36:19. > :36:21.The refugees will be kept airside. They won't come through to the
:36:22. > :36:27.terminal. They will be processed in a lounge here. We expect there will
:36:28. > :36:30.be representatives of about five our six Scottish local authorities who
:36:31. > :36:35.will take them to a hotel, brief them and then take them on to their
:36:36. > :36:42.perhaps long-term accommodation. But it's being done in this discreet way
:36:43. > :36:44.because these are deemed to be vulnerable people under this
:36:45. > :36:48.vulnerable persons resettlement scheme. We will not see them in
:36:49. > :36:51.public at this stage. They will be allowed to start their new lives in
:36:52. > :36:56.the UK discreetly and out of the public eye. Yes, difficult, of
:36:57. > :37:03.course, in the wake of what's been going on over the past few days. Are
:37:04. > :37:09.more expected? More Syrian refugees from those camps expected in
:37:10. > :37:14.Glasgow? That's right. We're expecting between 300 and 400 before
:37:15. > :37:18.Christmas. That's a pretty big proportion of the total of 1,000 for
:37:19. > :37:23.the UK before Christmas. Probably over a third will come to Scottish
:37:24. > :37:27.local authorities. I was talking to people in the terminal building a
:37:28. > :37:32.couple of minutes ago, asking them what they thought about the arrival
:37:33. > :37:37.of these refugees. There was a quite a lot of scepticism on the grounds
:37:38. > :37:41.where we hear people complaining about schools and hospitals being
:37:42. > :37:46.overstretched at the moment. There was that argument, but also concerns
:37:47. > :37:50.over what happened in Paris. People worrying who is coming into the
:37:51. > :37:55.country. It is the case these people, these refugees, have been
:37:56. > :37:59.given a double security screening before they arrive in the UK. So
:38:00. > :38:03.clearly the authorities are content that they do not represent any sort
:38:04. > :38:05.of security threat. James Shaw, you that.
:38:06. > :38:08.Now, lying next to the body of one of the men who blew themselves up
:38:09. > :38:10.outside the Stade de France last Friday was a Syrian passport.
:38:11. > :38:13.It belonged to a man who Greek officials have confirmed passed
:38:14. > :38:16.through Greece along with the thousands of migrants.
:38:17. > :38:20.So-called Islamic State had threatened to place jihadis amongst
:38:21. > :38:24.fleeing refugees and some, including Ukip leader Nigel Farage,
:38:25. > :38:28.believe this is exactly what has happened and that this security
:38:29. > :38:33.This dream of the free movement of people,
:38:34. > :38:37.this dream for others of the Schengen area
:38:38. > :38:40.hasn't just meant the free movement of people,
:38:41. > :38:42.it's meant the free movement of Kalashnikov rifles.
:38:43. > :38:45.It's meant the free movement of terrorists.
:38:46. > :38:48.And it's meant the free movement of jihadists.
:38:49. > :38:53.And it's time that democratic groups in Britain and right across Europe
:38:54. > :38:56.stood up and fought and gained in strength and said
:38:57. > :38:59."An end to this. We want back border controls.
:39:00. > :39:08.Here now is Peter Whittle, the Ukip candidate for London Mayor.
:39:09. > :39:16.Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is Nigel Farage cynically using the
:39:17. > :39:21.Parisse tax to try to forward Ukip's domestic agenda? Absolutely not.
:39:22. > :39:27.There's no question about this. This is a hugely political issue. So,
:39:28. > :39:31.political response is necessary. I find it extraordinary people say
:39:32. > :39:36.that this is being exploitative. Nigel's speech last night, I was
:39:37. > :39:40.there, was hugely nuanced and positive in some of the messages it
:39:41. > :39:45.put out. People want and need to talk about this situation. There
:39:46. > :39:50.were 1,000 people there last night. Everyone wants to talk about one of
:39:51. > :39:54.the most serious issues facing us. What you don't do, is somehow avoid
:39:55. > :39:59.it or deny things are happening. Right One of the quotes, some
:40:00. > :40:03.British Muslims, Nigel Farage said, are conflicted in their loyalties
:40:04. > :40:06.between the UK way of life and what some elements within their faith are
:40:07. > :40:11.telling them. Do you agree with that? I would say there is a large
:40:12. > :40:17.amount of truth in that. I have to point out, Nigel used one example.
:40:18. > :40:19.27%, in other words, he was not talking about all Muslims in
:40:20. > :40:24.Britain, he was talking about a small amount of Muslims who showed
:40:25. > :40:29.after the Charlie ebb doe attacks early this year in Paris, there was
:40:30. > :40:33.a significant support, about 27%, for the motives of those killers.
:40:34. > :40:39.That is very worrying indeed. We have to face up to those things. It
:40:40. > :40:44.is up to us to put forward a much stronger narrative as to why people
:40:45. > :40:50.should have their allegiance first and foremost to this country. What
:40:51. > :40:54.do you say to that? I don't believe British Muslims are kin flected. You
:40:55. > :41:00.don't love your first child any less because you have your second. The
:41:01. > :41:06.vast majority of Muslims feel very British, want their families safe.
:41:07. > :41:11.Don't want anything to do with Isis. It is a cult created by Saddam
:41:12. > :41:20.Hussein's hench men. They are scared of them as we are. We shouldn't
:41:21. > :41:27.confuse migrants with refugees. We are talking -- taking rev fees from
:41:28. > :41:31.Jordan. Properly vetted. Victims of rape, torture, brutality. No-one's
:41:32. > :41:38.arguing about that. That's the right way to do it. Nigel Farage said
:41:39. > :41:41.there would be Jihadis secreted within the fleeing refugees from
:41:42. > :41:47.Syria. That would be a threat. He's not the only one who said it. Elecon
:41:48. > :41:52.ease ministers said it. But at the time, if you said this at the time
:41:53. > :41:56.when this huge migration started, you were pretty much dismissed. But
:41:57. > :42:01.he was right. Was he right? Nigel Farage? There are genuine fears when
:42:02. > :42:05.you see those pictures of the vast numbers of people coming from that
:42:06. > :42:10.war-torn area in the middle east that surely there is a very high
:42:11. > :42:14.risk that it would be an op or tune way to smuggle Jihadis in. I trust
:42:15. > :42:20.our vetting processes. We are the British. Into Europe, continental
:42:21. > :42:26.Europe? Paris is where the attacks happened. Angela Merkel has opened
:42:27. > :42:32.the doors, to some people's minds, Ian her own ministerial Cabinet, it
:42:33. > :42:37.is the wrong thing to do. All the French terrorists were French born
:42:38. > :42:42.and lived in France or Belgium. It is a red herring. There will be
:42:43. > :42:48.people who go under the cloak of whatever process there is to get in
:42:49. > :42:54.to carry out their nefarious acts. That's our job, the British security
:42:55. > :42:59.services and policing job to make sure that doesn't happen. None of
:43:00. > :43:03.the the attackers were British. Associating those terrorists in any
:43:04. > :43:08.way with the three million or so Muslims in Britain will be or could
:43:09. > :43:12.be seen as provacative or unnecessarily stirring up emotion?
:43:13. > :43:18.Absolutely not. I totally reject this. It is not like we haven't been
:43:19. > :43:24.affected by this ourselves. We had Lee Rigby virtually decapitated. We
:43:25. > :43:30.had 7/7. We've had attacks. From home-grown terrorists. Yes. But you
:43:31. > :43:36.can't con Nate in a way the two issues when they are broadly born of
:43:37. > :43:42.the same cause. The trust is to say that it's red herring that just one
:43:43. > :43:47.came from outside France, I find extraordinarily complacent you can
:43:48. > :43:51.say that. Far from complacent. There may be a forged passport. They'll
:43:52. > :43:56.find out where he comes from. Whether he came through the
:43:57. > :43:59.migration route. But we, as security forces, we as Britain's, will have
:44:00. > :44:03.the opportunity to assess whether she should be here and make sure
:44:04. > :44:09.those who should not be are not allowed in. To pick up the the
:44:10. > :44:14.statistic. 27% of British Muslims said they'd some sympathy for the
:44:15. > :44:19.motives behind the Charlie endoe attacks in Paris in January? Is that
:44:20. > :44:24.worrying? Very worrying. I personally believe we should not
:44:25. > :44:29.worry about whether or not people want to take the proverbial out of
:44:30. > :44:33.our faith. Faith is about me and my religion not about me and the rest
:44:34. > :44:37.of the public. I would not welcome anyone saying people should be
:44:38. > :44:43.harmed or hurt because they abused us or criticised us. 27% of British
:44:44. > :44:46.Muslims do? That's a survey. I know from talking to dozens around the
:44:47. > :44:51.country that's not what they believe. They are British. They were
:44:52. > :44:55.Muslim victims of the terrorism in Paris. No-one's denying that. But
:44:56. > :45:01.you should agree we should talk about this. I've not problem talking
:45:02. > :45:08.about it. Should we take more Syrian refugees? My personal belief is
:45:09. > :45:12.these people are fleeing fascist regime which is Isis. Back in the
:45:13. > :45:18.thirties, with he didn't say to the Jews go back to Hitler. We should be
:45:19. > :45:24.doing the same with refugees. A lot were turned back. That compar is son
:45:25. > :45:32.is a completely different situation. While the public here rightly
:45:33. > :45:34.express sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks in Paris,
:45:35. > :45:37.it is only natural that thoughts The security services say they have
:45:38. > :45:42.foiled a number of plots on UK soil, and
:45:43. > :45:44.the Government is stressing that it is determined to tackle the threat
:45:45. > :45:47.of more, but is there a weak spot? The policy of deradicalisation
:45:48. > :45:49.called Prevent has come in for criticism that it's alienating
:45:50. > :45:52.as many as it deals with. Giles has been looking
:45:53. > :45:54.into this trickier area His film opens with
:45:55. > :45:56.a police exercise. These are not terrorists,
:45:57. > :46:00.but police. But since the Mumbai attacks, the
:46:01. > :46:07.risk of a terrorist shooting attack has been trained for as part of
:46:08. > :46:11.the UK's counterterrorism strategy. Paris has shown the threats to be
:46:12. > :46:15.a tragically very real one, and we have been told the security
:46:16. > :46:17.services have foiled seven But there is another strand to our
:46:18. > :46:24.preparations, and that is how you tackle someone who has yet to pick
:46:25. > :46:28.up a gun or bomb and is starting Prevent is the Government's push
:46:29. > :46:34.on changing their minds. We've trained 330,000 people
:46:35. > :46:40.to implement the new Prevent duty. So by a process of concentrating our
:46:41. > :46:44.approach, refining what we do and being mindful of those
:46:45. > :46:47.sensitivities, In June this year, 327 people
:46:48. > :46:55.were placed in a deradicalisation in August, just 120, but the total,
:46:56. > :47:06.796, was a larger number True, we have not had
:47:07. > :47:21.a mass casualty attack here for a decade, but that might be a victory
:47:22. > :47:24.more for counterterrorism than deradicalisation programmes, given
:47:25. > :47:29.that, according to police, 700 UK citizens have gone to Syria to fight
:47:30. > :47:32.with jihadists, The problem may be interaction
:47:33. > :47:40.at grassroot levels. There are four key elements of the
:47:41. > :47:42.Contest strategy. The Prevent strategy is
:47:43. > :47:45.the one that isn't successful, because confidence is not there
:47:46. > :47:47.in the community. We need to learn lessons
:47:48. > :47:49.about how we defeated the IRA. It's about talking to individuals
:47:50. > :47:51.that may be difficult for the Government to appreciate
:47:52. > :47:56.that they need to speak to. At the moment,
:47:57. > :47:58.we're not doing that. that the Government feel
:47:59. > :48:00.comfortable with. They're not necessarily the
:48:01. > :48:02.ones that represent the community. And some are uncomfortable with
:48:03. > :48:05.the Government's push that schools, universities
:48:06. > :48:07.and councils should report The more you limit your ability to
:48:08. > :48:13.say that you can have discreet and caring conversations with your
:48:14. > :48:17.students, the more likely it is that you will prevent them, ironically,
:48:18. > :48:23.from being able to come to you and express concerns where they might
:48:24. > :48:27.be open to influence that might But the Government disagrees
:48:28. > :48:33.that it's asking them to spy. If you take these colleges
:48:34. > :48:36.and schools, they have always taken Professor Mohammed Abdel-Haq
:48:37. > :48:42.of the University of Bolton was speaking about this recently to me
:48:43. > :48:45.and saying that duty of care is very much in line with what
:48:46. > :48:50.we now expect people to do. If you see it in those terms,
:48:51. > :48:54.actually, it is very natural. And being frank,
:48:55. > :48:59.there is no doubt that in the UK right now, there are people who do
:49:00. > :49:06.wish us a great deal of harm. Joining us now is the
:49:07. > :49:08.Conservative MP, Rehman Chishti, and Miqdaad Versi,
:49:09. > :49:24.the Assistant Secretary General Rehman Chishti, more than 700 people
:49:25. > :49:28.have left the UK to fight in Iraq and Syria. Prevent, the government
:49:29. > :49:33.strategy to deter people from engaging in terrorism, has therefore
:49:34. > :49:37.failed. Well, you are looking at the number 700 in recent years, but the
:49:38. > :49:40.problem we have had with radicalisation and extremism has
:49:41. > :49:45.gone on for decades. After the war in Afghanistan, Abu Hamza, who
:49:46. > :49:49.fought in that war, was openly allowed to come to this country and
:49:50. > :49:53.preaches hatred. Nothing was done. You had hate preachers in this
:49:54. > :49:59.country. To save this is something that has happened over the last few
:50:00. > :50:03.years is not right. But since 2010? This is a combination of successive
:50:04. > :50:06.governments which have not got to grips with deradicalisation.
:50:07. > :50:13.Including yours. We have a lot more to do, I would be the first to say
:50:14. > :50:19.that. But do I think we need to look at Prevent taking into account the
:50:20. > :50:24.threat posed by Daesh? When Prevent was first set up, Daesh was not
:50:25. > :50:29.there, so the threat posed by Daesh is significant and we need to make
:50:30. > :50:34.sure Prevent deals with that threat. But Labour targeted moderate Islamic
:50:35. > :50:38.groups in a hope that they would provide a way out for those on the
:50:39. > :50:42.margins. The coalition withdrew funding from those groups opposed to
:50:43. > :50:47.fundamental British values. Was that a mistake? We took money away from
:50:48. > :50:56.certain groups where money was not used appropriately. In the last
:50:57. > :50:59.year, we have worked with over 250 mosques around the country, but we
:51:00. > :51:02.have to target the money appropriately by working with those
:51:03. > :51:06.who are committed to British values. Is that a mistake? I think
:51:07. > :51:11.the government should engage with a broad range of British Muslim
:51:12. > :51:16.communities, not just the ones who agree with what it says. That is
:51:17. > :51:20.something that hopefully, everyone would agree with. It makes no sense
:51:21. > :51:24.to try to institute a policy that will impact significantly on one
:51:25. > :51:29.portion of the community. You need to be talking, understand the
:51:30. > :51:33.concerns, and then we can keep ourselves safe. We need something
:51:34. > :51:37.effective, evidence -based and something that the community can buy
:51:38. > :51:41.into. Has the government been talking to the Muslim Council of
:51:42. > :51:44.Britain? The government has not been talking to the Muslim Council of
:51:45. > :51:48.Britain. For us, it is important to have critical friends at the table.
:51:49. > :51:53.There are many who criticise the Muslim Council of Britain. Nazir
:51:54. > :51:57.Afzal has done so in the past as well, but he was invited to our AGM
:51:58. > :52:01.last year. We are happy to talk to people with different views, and the
:52:02. > :52:04.government should do so as well. Shouldn't the government be talking
:52:05. > :52:08.to critical voices if that is what is needed to reach those who might
:52:09. > :52:15.be vulnerable to that sort of ideology? I have engaged with the
:52:16. > :52:18.Muslim community. I have personally had meetings with the Muslim Council
:52:19. > :52:23.of Britain and their Secretary General. I want to engage with
:52:24. > :52:28.everyone. So when I put the recommendation forward to
:52:29. > :52:32.government, we have listened to everyone. We are in this together.
:52:33. > :52:37.Everyone has a role to play in fighting this evil ideology. And
:52:38. > :52:40.these extremists will not stop at anything to impose their will. The
:52:41. > :52:48.more we are united with all organisations, the better. That is
:52:49. > :52:52.right. I was invited to speak at your AGM. You did not have the issue
:52:53. > :52:56.of people flying off to Syria and Iraq on your agenda. I said, I will
:52:57. > :53:00.only speak if you allow me to speak about that and thankfully, you did.
:53:01. > :53:05.So it was about me opening the door which you were not prepared to talk
:53:06. > :53:09.about, but I do pay tribute to you. You have personally spoken about
:53:10. > :53:12.this subject. But my view is like that which Rehman Chishti is saying.
:53:13. > :53:15.We have failed in many aspects around engagement. We have not
:53:16. > :53:24.caught up with the internet age. Prevent was pre-had macro. -- it was
:53:25. > :53:27.pre-Daesh. At the moment, we have a programme where we do not have
:53:28. > :53:34.one-on-one mentoring. We do not have enough mentors. Why did you not have
:53:35. > :53:39.that at the top of your agenda? With 700 people who have gone to Syria
:53:40. > :53:44.and Iraq and been radicalised? It was not part of our AGM, but we are
:53:45. > :53:47.doing work on it now. On Thursday, before the horrific attacks in
:53:48. > :53:52.Paris, we had a national meeting where we started a listening
:53:53. > :53:56.exercise across the country to understand what is going on and to
:53:57. > :53:59.see what Muslim communities in the grassroots are saying and to
:54:00. > :54:03.corroborate what we have said in the past to find ideas on how to tackle
:54:04. > :54:10.the issues we face. We are on the front line. There is no silver
:54:11. > :54:15.bullet. There is no clear answer. The answer is the grassroots, not
:54:16. > :54:20.the very large organisations. Do you see the Muslim Council of Britain as
:54:21. > :54:24.grassroots? My point is that I have worked with lots of women's groups,
:54:25. > :54:27.for example. They are the answer. They don't have the time to put in a
:54:28. > :54:31.business case for government funding. We have to make it easier
:54:32. > :54:37.for them to do their job. You are right, we have to broaden the
:54:38. > :54:44.engagement. We have set up a community engagement panel to make
:54:45. > :54:47.sure all views are taken on board. There are those who are dangerous,
:54:48. > :54:51.those who are disturbed and those who are disillusioned. Therefore,
:54:52. > :54:56.the government has irresponsible at it to ensure that it deals with
:54:57. > :55:00.those who are dangerous. Those who are disillusioned and disturbed get
:55:01. > :55:05.sucked into this poisonous ideology, and therefore, mum and dad have a
:55:06. > :55:11.responsibility to watch what their children are doing an the internet.
:55:12. > :55:14.It is important to take down internet material, but it is also
:55:15. > :55:22.important to put up another narrative which tackles that. Are
:55:23. > :55:25.the Muslim community doing enough to stop radicalisation in their own
:55:26. > :55:29.homes? There is a lot more that needs to be done from within the
:55:30. > :55:35.Muslim community and outside it. There is a long journey ahead of
:55:36. > :55:39.us. We have to ask how to best Brit. Some of the ideas coming from the
:55:40. > :55:44.government or from the grassroots are being done at grassroots level.
:55:45. > :55:50.They are being done at local mosques. We need some of these ideas
:55:51. > :55:54.to go to the government. The community engagement the government
:55:55. > :55:59.has set up does not have a broad section of the community
:56:00. > :56:03.represented. Thank you for joining us. Rehman Chishti, you will stay
:56:04. > :56:06.with us a bit longer. A few minutes ago, the Prime Minister made a
:56:07. > :56:10.statement to the House of Commons on the Paris attacks and the G20 summit
:56:11. > :56:15.from which he has just returned. Let's listen to what he had to say.
:56:16. > :56:19.We face a direct and growing threat to our country, and we need to deal
:56:20. > :56:23.with it not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. I have always said
:56:24. > :56:28.there is a strong case for doing so. Our allies are asking us to do
:56:29. > :56:32.this, and the case for doing so has only grown stronger after the Paris
:56:33. > :56:35.attacks. We cannot expect and should not expect others to carry the
:56:36. > :56:44.burdens and the risks of protecting our country. I recognise that there
:56:45. > :56:48.are concerns in this House. What difference would action by the UK
:56:49. > :56:53.make? Could it make the situation worse? How does the recent Russian
:56:54. > :56:56.action affect the situation? How, above all, would a decision by
:56:57. > :57:01.Britain to join strikes against Isil in Syria fit into a comprehensive
:57:02. > :57:05.strategy for dealing with Isil and a diplomatic strategy to bring the war
:57:06. > :57:10.in Syria to an end to? I understand these concerns, and I know they must
:57:11. > :57:14.be answered. I believe they can be and third. Many were expressed in
:57:15. > :57:17.the recent report of the foreign affairs select committee. My
:57:18. > :57:22.conviction is that we need to act against Isil in Syria. There is a
:57:23. > :57:26.compelling case for doing so. It is for the government to make that case
:57:27. > :57:30.to this House and the country. I can therefore announced that of first
:57:31. > :57:32.important step to do so, I will respond personally to the report of
:57:33. > :57:37.the foreign affairs select committee. I will set out our of
:57:38. > :57:41.strategy for dealing with Isil, our vision for a more stable and
:57:42. > :57:46.peaceful Middle East. In my view, this strategy should include taking
:57:47. > :57:50.the action in Syria I have spoken about. I hope that in setting out
:57:51. > :57:54.the arguments in this way, I can help build support across this House
:57:55. > :57:58.for the action that I believe is necessary. That is what I will be
:57:59. > :58:01.putting in place over the coming days, and I hope colleagues from
:58:02. > :58:07.across the House will engage with that and make clear their views so
:58:08. > :58:12.we can have a strong vote in this House of Commons and do the right
:58:13. > :58:15.thing for our country. That was the Prime Minister in the House of
:58:16. > :58:18.Commons a few moments ago. He is going to take the unusual step of
:58:19. > :58:21.responding personally to the foreign affairs select committee report
:58:22. > :58:27.calling for a plan for a wider peace in Syria, and he will set out a road
:58:28. > :58:30.map that he believes will have more action to take against Isil. Do you
:58:31. > :58:35.support air strikes against Isis in Syria? I agree that we have to do
:58:36. > :58:40.everything we can to defeat this evil organisation. But before we go
:58:41. > :58:43.to military action, let's get the government to get the terminology
:58:44. > :58:48.right and defeat the propaganda. At the moment, so-called Isil want to
:58:49. > :58:52.be called an Islamic State. We have just talked about why over 600
:58:53. > :58:55.British nationals have been sucked into fighting for this even
:58:56. > :58:59.organisation. The government has to get the strategy right to defeat
:59:00. > :59:07.their organisation right and get the terminology right. And then you will
:59:08. > :59:10.support air strikes? This time, I want to see the strategy put forward
:59:11. > :59:11.before I decide whether to support them.
:59:12. > :59:16.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:59:17. > :59:19.I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage of
:59:20. > :59:31.He brought ground-breaking, subversive shows
:59:32. > :59:36.He was the most brilliant young producer.
:59:37. > :59:38.He was the only one that could really keep up with me.
:59:39. > :59:41.'While you're alive, you have to live.'