:00:38. > :00:41.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Gunmen have taken 170 people hostage in a luxury hotel in the capital
:00:46. > :00:48.of Mali in North Africa, with three people reported dead.
:00:49. > :00:53.We'll have the latest on this developing story.
:00:54. > :00:57.The latest extremist attack comes as France urges the rest of the EU to
:00:58. > :01:01.take immediate and decisive action to tighten up Europe's borders.
:01:02. > :01:07.Theresa May says border controls across the EU must be increased.
:01:08. > :01:10.Ahead of George Osborne's spending review next week,
:01:11. > :01:13.a leaked police document prepared for the Home Secretary warns
:01:14. > :01:17.of the risk to security in Britain if police budgets are cut further.
:01:18. > :01:23.And after a tumultuous week featuring public rows, heated
:01:24. > :01:30.exchanges and pointed criticism of Jeremy Corbyn, we'll discuss what
:01:31. > :01:38.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole of the programme
:01:39. > :01:40.today The Guardian columnist Zoe Williams and the political
:01:41. > :01:49.Let's start though with the breaking news this
:01:50. > :01:53.morning of a terror attack in the capital of Mali in North Africa.
:01:54. > :01:54.Earlier this morning gunmen attacked a luxury hotel,
:01:55. > :01:59.For the latest we can talk to our security correspondent,
:02:00. > :02:12.What do we know so far? The situation in Bamako is unfolding
:02:13. > :02:18.very fast. It is developing as we speak. Earlier this morning, a
:02:19. > :02:25.number of masked gunmen, anywhere between three and 13, approached the
:02:26. > :02:29.hotel in vehicles with diplomatic number plates. They quickly
:02:30. > :02:34.overpowered security and shot dead at least two of the security guards
:02:35. > :02:39.and went into the hotel, very popular with local business people
:02:40. > :02:45.and editing aircrews, diplomats and expats, right in the heart of the
:02:46. > :02:50.business district. They went through floor by floor, some reports say
:02:51. > :02:54.throwing grenades, rounding up hostages. They have reportedly
:02:55. > :02:59.released only a small number who were able to recite verses from the
:03:00. > :03:04.Koran. They will also heard shouting Allahu Akbar, God is the greatest,
:03:05. > :03:13.which is often shouted by the haggis is. -- jihadists. This is a serious
:03:14. > :03:19.situation and it could be really grim depending on what they do with
:03:20. > :03:23.the hostages. Malian special forces, as of a few moments ago, were
:03:24. > :03:27.reported to be inside the hotel but that does not mean the situation is
:03:28. > :03:31.under control. The French have a huge interest in this, there is a
:03:32. > :03:37.confirmed French aircrew at the hotel and they have been offering
:03:38. > :03:43.logistic and intelligence support and are probably very close behind
:03:44. > :03:47.the Malian special forces. Is there any linkage at this early stage that
:03:48. > :03:55.we can infer from what is happening to the attacks in Paris? Not yet.
:03:56. > :04:04.Only a much broader ideological one. They share the same ideology, but
:04:05. > :04:07.quite possibly they have a local grievance. Most experts we have
:04:08. > :04:14.spoken to say they think they come from northern Mali. Nearly three
:04:15. > :04:19.years ago, French forces went into Mali and reversed a takeover of the
:04:20. > :04:25.country I am Al-Qaeda linked group. -- by an Al-Qaeda linked group. The
:04:26. > :04:32.chances are that the people doing this are local West Africans,
:04:33. > :04:38.possibly with links to Al-Qaeda, possibly but unlikely linked to Boko
:04:39. > :04:42.Haram. Most likely a regional group. I may be wrong but I don't
:04:43. > :04:48.think this will have been directed by so-called Islamic State. They
:04:49. > :04:52.shared the same ideology which is to push out secular and democratic
:04:53. > :04:55.devilment and install their own narrow brand of Islam that is
:04:56. > :04:59.anathema to most of the population. They have hit in one of the most
:05:00. > :05:04.sensitive places and they will be looking for maximum publicity which
:05:05. > :05:09.is what they are getting. Thank you for bringing us up to date. We will
:05:10. > :05:12.keep you up-to-date with all the information as it comes in.
:05:13. > :05:14.This morning European interior ministers have been meeting in
:05:15. > :05:17.Brussels to discuss how to tighten up security checks at EU borders.
:05:18. > :05:19.Yesterday the French Interior Minister, Bernard
:05:20. > :05:21.Cazeneuve, said Europe needed to "wake up" to the terror threat,
:05:22. > :05:25.and demanded more intelligence sharing between countries.
:05:26. > :05:29.On her way into the meeting, the Home Secretary, Theresa May,
:05:30. > :05:32.said securing EU borders was vital to combat the threat of terrorism.
:05:33. > :05:34.There is a clear link between security of the external border,
:05:35. > :05:37.the EU's external borders, and security within the EU and that is
:05:38. > :05:40.why it is important we ensure that the measures we have already agreed
:05:41. > :05:44.But I'm going to be pressing on two further things today.
:05:45. > :05:52.I think we need accelerated progress on firearms,
:05:53. > :05:55.I would like to see all member states committing to improving the
:05:56. > :06:00.measures and penalties for dealing with those who traffic in firearms.
:06:01. > :06:03.And on passenger name records, we need to see immediate progress,
:06:04. > :06:05.the negotiations have taken too long, that must be concluded
:06:06. > :06:07.and the UK will be going ahead with obtaining records
:06:08. > :06:16.from those who work operating to and from the United Kingdom.
:06:17. > :06:24.We've been joined by the French TV journalist, Benedicte Paviot. What
:06:25. > :06:33.can you tell us about this attack? Do you have any fresh information
:06:34. > :06:40.and was it expected? Unfortunately, what the jihadist group, and I agree
:06:41. > :06:44.with all of the analysis from Frank, it is a soft target. Having said
:06:45. > :06:52.that, this particular medicine blue hotel is very well protected, or was
:06:53. > :06:57.-- Radisson Blu. I understand we are dealing with two or three jihadists
:06:58. > :07:03.with AK-47 Kalashnikovs which ended the perimeter and the building
:07:04. > :07:08.around 7am, using a car with diplomatic plates so quite well
:07:09. > :07:12.organised. I think they killed the security guards outside. We know at
:07:13. > :07:17.least three are dead wolf that we have westerners, I don't know how
:07:18. > :07:23.many French, at least seven Chinese, UN personnel, some of whom escaped.
:07:24. > :07:30.The Malian forces have stormed part of the building. They cannot secure
:07:31. > :07:35.the whole hotel. We know that there was a peace accord struck a few
:07:36. > :07:40.months ago in Mali. The problem is that it only included one faction.
:07:41. > :07:47.There are others who are very disgruntled. My understanding also
:07:48. > :07:55.is that the tactics being employed here, it is linked to Paris and
:07:56. > :07:59.apparently that is because a call goes out across the Internet for
:08:00. > :08:04.jihadists, regional and local groups, to improvise and do their
:08:05. > :08:10.thing and identify targets and this is what has happened. One French
:08:11. > :08:13.security top military commander with great links to the French
:08:14. > :08:20.intelligence services has just said that is why, and one does not want
:08:21. > :08:26.to be alarmist, but it is a global threat. Mali is a former French
:08:27. > :08:31.colony, French troops have been fighting Al-Qaeda troops on the
:08:32. > :08:36.ground. In some Islamist states chatter in recent days, there have
:08:37. > :08:39.been links, because of what the French had been doing in Mali, that
:08:40. > :08:44.was a factor that led to Paris, they have been making that claim. But it
:08:45. > :08:50.mean that there are French targets across the globe that are
:08:51. > :08:58.vulnerable? Yes, absolutely it does mean that, at the meeting that is
:08:59. > :09:02.going to go on between the justice ministers and Foreign Minister is
:09:03. > :09:07.very important and what the French interior Minister is stressing, and
:09:08. > :09:13.Theresa May also, is very important. I understand there is a draft
:09:14. > :09:19.document evaluating the risk. There is no zero risk, we know that. The
:09:20. > :09:22.danger for the media weather here, in France, or elsewhere, is to give
:09:23. > :09:31.these people the blizzard the that they seek. And looking back at Mali,
:09:32. > :09:35.it is important to storm any kind of situation like that very quickly. I
:09:36. > :09:42.believe that hostages are being asked to recite a Koranic prayer and
:09:43. > :09:48.this is very worrying. And the people who can are being released,
:09:49. > :09:53.others are being kept. What the Malian forces, I understand suborder
:09:54. > :09:56.bike French and UN forces, are doing, is trying to stop the
:09:57. > :10:01.situation as quickly as possible -- supported by. They want world
:10:02. > :10:07.headlines and that I getting them. They are not interested in
:10:08. > :10:10.negotiation. Is this a new reality that we have to accept, that this is
:10:11. > :10:16.the sort of thing that will continue? I think it has been
:10:17. > :10:23.building for a number of years, you can go back to 2001 or even
:10:24. > :10:29.earlier, Al-Qaeda, Islamic State, though, RAM, other groups. We will
:10:30. > :10:32.have to adjust to this new reality everywhere and it is not just
:10:33. > :10:37.France. France has suffered recently but there is no reason why it should
:10:38. > :10:42.not be Britain, America, other parts of Europe. It is always worth
:10:43. > :10:49.restating that the biggest victims of all of this are always Muslims.
:10:50. > :10:54.They are Syrians, people in Mali, far more of them lose their lives
:10:55. > :11:02.than anybody in Britain or America. Killed by other Muslims. That's
:11:03. > :11:06.right. And it is slightly disingenuous to portray this as a
:11:07. > :11:10.French problem because France was in Mali. What drew them into Mali at
:11:11. > :11:16.that point were those gruesome terrorist attacks, they were
:11:17. > :11:20.chopping people's hands off and boiling them and selling them back
:11:21. > :11:26.on again and it was a deliberate attempt to bring the French in. --
:11:27. > :11:31.sewing them. These attacks make more impact if that have brought in
:11:32. > :11:37.outside agents and that is the purpose. European interior ministers
:11:38. > :11:41.are meeting in Brussels today to look at the whole question of
:11:42. > :11:45.borders and the French government has been explicit about this saying
:11:46. > :11:50.that the European external border needs to be toughened up. Can the
:11:51. > :11:58.European Union do something now that will secure its orders or is it too
:11:59. > :12:05.much? I think that is', the idea that you can stop two terrorists
:12:06. > :12:11.from 200,000 refugees -- that is 's -- proper stress.
:12:12. > :12:19.What is worrying is that this ringleader that died on Monday in
:12:20. > :12:24.the raid was actually taunting the authorities about being in Belgium
:12:25. > :12:29.and Greece and whatever. I completely agree, there is no zero
:12:30. > :12:35.risk. Forgive me, I forgot to state importantly, the jihadists and IS
:12:36. > :12:41.are particularly targeting France because it is a secular state and
:12:42. > :12:49.France is targeting them because it knows that it has this big attack
:12:50. > :12:54.and terror threat from it. You are right, Mali, the reason the French
:12:55. > :13:00.stepped in so quickly with helicopters from the UK, let's
:13:01. > :13:06.remember, a former colony, they know that part of Africa very well but
:13:07. > :13:08.also because Mali was about to become completely lawless and was
:13:09. > :13:20.very much a training camp as Syria is today for very clear, targeted
:13:21. > :13:23.major incident and terror attacks. They want to target European
:13:24. > :13:31.capitals and that is why the French stepped in. The question about
:13:32. > :13:35.borders, I think more can be done. More on intelligence sharing a
:13:36. > :13:39.passenger information, there are things that can be done to improve
:13:40. > :13:44.the situation. America is a bit tougher on some of these things. The
:13:45. > :13:50.external border of Schengen could be reinforced. But some people will get
:13:51. > :13:55.through and also, to repeat what everybody has noted, it is home
:13:56. > :13:58.grown people who are in fact Belgians or French or British who
:13:59. > :14:05.carry these things out. Some will have been to Syria but you can't
:14:06. > :14:11.just say if we feel ourselves off we will be safe. What do you think
:14:12. > :14:17.could be done? Remain mania, Greece, Turkey, all of those borders are
:14:18. > :14:22.very porous -- Romania. A lot of arms are coming in from the
:14:23. > :14:25.Balkans. When you have those, it is a wonderful ideal to have the
:14:26. > :14:30.Schengen area but it has to be looked at carefully. This that mean
:14:31. > :14:37.that this idea of a smaller Schengen area... I think that is a terrible
:14:38. > :14:40.way to go. It is crazy to think that the answer to a global threat when
:14:41. > :14:47.this is to become smaller and more insular. You can introduce a system
:14:48. > :14:50.of spot checks inside the Schengen area. France has done quite a lot
:14:51. > :14:56.this week, momentarily sealing the border with algebra. What would be
:14:57. > :15:01.terrible if if we went back to the system of having to use because the
:15:02. > :15:05.border from Belgium and Germany for example. You don't want to do that
:15:06. > :15:07.but there are things you can do and there are things you can do on
:15:08. > :15:11.intelligence sharing which has clearly been a bit of a failure in
:15:12. > :15:16.this and there may be some things you can do on Assen Jet records and
:15:17. > :15:19.so on. Beefing up the security services and the police will be part
:15:20. > :15:24.of the response -- passenger records.
:15:25. > :15:26.Police cuts expected to be announced in next week's Spending Review may
:15:27. > :15:29."reduce very significantly" the UK's ability to respond to a Paris-style
:15:30. > :15:31.attack, the Home Secretary has been warned.
:15:32. > :15:34.The advisory - which was leaked to the BBC - comes
:15:35. > :15:37.in a restricted document prepared for Theresa May by one of the UK's
:15:38. > :15:45.The Home Office said it would not comment on a leaked document.
:15:46. > :15:46.This morning, Labour's Shadow Chancellor,
:15:47. > :15:50.John McDonnell, was asked what he thought of the leak and the possible
:15:51. > :15:56.It is everything that other police chiefs have been saying now
:15:57. > :15:59.for months, that we all want to ensure our community is protected,
:16:00. > :16:03.particularly in light of what has happened in Paris.
:16:04. > :16:06.The first line of defence is the police on the beat, protecting
:16:07. > :16:08.our community, preventing terrorist activity, finding intelligence
:16:09. > :16:17.So we are all worried now that the scale of cuts George Osborne is
:16:18. > :16:20.considering actually undermines our community's safety.
:16:21. > :16:23.That has been said, and, as a result of the leak we know,
:16:24. > :16:26.that is the advice to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we know
:16:27. > :16:29.police chiefs around the country have been saying it as well.
:16:30. > :16:31.We're joined now by Lord Reid, former Home and Defence Secretary
:16:32. > :16:37.and now Chair of the Institute for Security and Resilience Studies.
:16:38. > :16:45.I hope I got the correct. You did, as ever. Do you accept this
:16:46. > :16:49.argument from the police if the Government is juice is the cuts
:16:50. > :16:55.expected in the spending review next week, they will not be able to cope
:16:56. > :16:59.with a Paris style attack? I certainly accept it will undermine
:17:00. > :17:05.the capability for doing that and capacity for doing that, the two
:17:06. > :17:11.reasons. John Denham mentioned local community policing and the effect on
:17:12. > :17:17.the community. -- John McDonnell.
:17:18. > :17:21.The first is the search capacity, that has already been mentioned.
:17:22. > :17:27.People will not understand that? We saw that in Paris last week,
:17:28. > :17:32.there were 115,000 police and security professionals which, if
:17:33. > :17:38.there are more cuts to British police, mean they had more police in
:17:39. > :17:41.one town in France than we will have in the whole of England.
:17:42. > :17:45.Can I say the second one, though, this has not been mentioned, and is
:17:46. > :17:50.crucial. Counter-terrorism depends on
:17:51. > :17:59.intelligence. Some of that can be done centrally, signal
:18:00. > :18:04.intelligence, communications intelligence, we all discuss GCHQ
:18:05. > :18:08.constantly. But a lot is human intelligence, that comes from the
:18:09. > :18:15.local communities, the grass roots. And in Britain, one of the reasons
:18:16. > :18:19.we are admired for our counter terrorist intelligence is the police
:18:20. > :18:23.act as a bridge between the Central intelligence agencies, and the
:18:24. > :18:28.community. If you cut the numbers, as they have been doing and are
:18:29. > :18:33.proposing to do again, then you cut the intelligence flow from the
:18:34. > :18:40.community, and your capability. Can I ask about the numbers, you
:18:41. > :18:45.said the French had 115,000 police and professionals in Paris. If the
:18:46. > :18:51.cuts were introduced, the UK, we would not have that number across
:18:52. > :18:55.the UK. We did some checking, there are 148,000 police officers in the
:18:56. > :19:01.UK at the moment. Do you seriously think there will be that reduction?
:19:02. > :19:09.I will counter your figures, there are not. Full-time police officers,
:19:10. > :19:17.not secondments. When I left as Home Secretary, nine years ago, there
:19:18. > :19:29.were 141,837, give or take a phew. And now there are 126,000. 16,000
:19:30. > :19:37.less, excluding secondments and so on, 16,000 left, less now, then I
:19:38. > :19:48.was in. If we get another cut next week, then you will see even fewer.
:19:49. > :19:55.The number I was Northern Ireland and Scotland. I am comparing apples
:19:56. > :20:04.with apples, not apples and pears. What the Government says is, yes,
:20:05. > :20:11.but we have more people at the front. That fails to understand how
:20:12. > :20:14.intelligence works. Because teeth to tail, that is front-line to the
:20:15. > :20:21.actual production of intelligence, you need a ratio of one - four. If
:20:22. > :20:25.you're cutting at the back end, you are undermining the capacity for the
:20:26. > :20:30.flow of intelligence. There is no question. I have to say to you, it
:20:31. > :20:34.comes on top of a Government which in the last five years has watered
:20:35. > :20:39.down control orders which were introduced by David Blunkett,
:20:40. > :20:45.abandoned ID cards introduced by me, they have delayed the increase in
:20:46. > :20:51.technology and powers of surveillance, and they have
:20:52. > :20:54.seriously weakened it. If a Government minister were here they
:20:55. > :21:00.would say the Government has protected the counterterrorism
:21:01. > :21:04.budget, introduced other powers, tidying up that wealth of
:21:05. > :21:08.legislation. He would immediately say this was the fault of Nick
:21:09. > :21:16.Clegg. To some extent, that would be true. But the truth is they have
:21:17. > :21:20.weakened us. Take a simple case. We know there are at least 750 people
:21:21. > :21:27.from this country who have gone abroad to work in Syria. With Isil.
:21:28. > :21:33.Not just sympathisers but activists. We know there are at least 450 of
:21:34. > :21:38.them now back in this country. Why don't we know how many of them are
:21:39. > :21:42.subject to surveillance, prosecution, the radical as it
:21:43. > :21:48.measures and so on? There is no clarity. This is a very serious
:21:49. > :21:52.issue given what I said was the diminution of a counterterrorist
:21:53. > :21:57.apparatus, that others can't run away from that. You have been Home
:21:58. > :22:02.Secretary, taken part in spending reviews, is this not just the police
:22:03. > :22:07.using the Paris attacks to defend their corner in a hard-fought
:22:08. > :22:12.Spending Review that will be announced next week? They are
:22:13. > :22:17.saying, don't cut us, look at Paris. Of course there is an element of
:22:18. > :22:20.truth, when you come to a Spending Review, every group tries to put
:22:21. > :22:24.forward a case. The substantial issue is, does it
:22:25. > :22:30.make sense, is it true, but it had the effect they say they will? From
:22:31. > :22:35.my experience, yes, it will. If I were Theresa May, I would be
:22:36. > :22:39.publicly outraged somebody has leaked this, and privately I would
:22:40. > :22:45.be on to number ten and number 11 Downing St saying, you cannot do
:22:46. > :22:48.this in the present circumstances. We have Shannon with its
:22:49. > :22:55.inadequacies. This ring of steel we talk about around Europe is actually
:22:56. > :23:00.a sieve. We have mass immigration. We have economic migration,
:23:01. > :23:04.refugees, terrorist attacks taking place in Europe.
:23:05. > :23:10.Here in Britain, you are cutting the police even further which undermines
:23:11. > :23:14.intelligence capability. I would use this to force the Treasury to face
:23:15. > :23:17.up to the reality. Do you buy this argument, there is a
:23:18. > :23:23.serious issue about police and security?
:23:24. > :23:27.David Cameron has always presented cuts in police as back office
:23:28. > :23:33.staff. As the back office staff never did anything. Funnily there
:23:34. > :23:37.will be a conversation about both of those people were serving a useful
:23:38. > :23:42.function and he will find out they were. There is always an element,
:23:43. > :23:46.not necessarily deceit, but certainly a picture that wasn't the
:23:47. > :23:51.full picture. John, do you think the Government is
:23:52. > :23:54.getting the security response right? Energy is focused on whether action
:23:55. > :23:57.should be taken militarily in Syria question mark should they be
:23:58. > :24:04.thinking more seriously about the wider security issues?
:24:05. > :24:09.I think they do. The events of the last two weeks clearly suggest we
:24:10. > :24:14.will have to invest more, and they are, in the security services. And
:24:15. > :24:16.we will probably have to invest more in the police.
:24:17. > :24:23.The only thing I would say is every time I talk to people from the
:24:24. > :24:28.health service, the education lobby, when you come up to autumn, they
:24:29. > :24:32.say, we could take the cuts before but this time we cannot meet demand.
:24:33. > :24:37.The police are bound to say the same thing. Across the public sector,
:24:38. > :24:42.people will say, this time I can't take this cut. The Government had to
:24:43. > :24:48.make it sums add up. You do get manoeuvring.
:24:49. > :24:53.I don't quite agree, it had to make it sums add up, they have set that
:24:54. > :24:58.sum. They have decided to cut the services. It has nothing to do with
:24:59. > :25:02.what decent public services look like. We are being told public
:25:03. > :25:06.services will not be affected. Meantime, being asked to dismiss the
:25:07. > :25:10.people working in them for legitimate complaints.
:25:11. > :25:17.We are about to talk about the Labour Party.
:25:18. > :25:22.Jeremy Corbyn in his response to the press attacks has not been
:25:23. > :25:25.universally welcomed, have you been impressed?
:25:26. > :25:31.No. In fairness to him, I have not been impressed with much he has said
:25:32. > :25:34.in 33 years. What is saddening for me particularly is the apparent lack
:25:35. > :25:39.of coherence, as if every time Jeremy makes a statement, you have
:25:40. > :25:44.two book a media slot for somebody from the Shadow Cabinet to
:25:45. > :25:48.contradict him, disagree, or reinterpret what he is saying.
:25:49. > :25:53.Sad for the Labour Party. I understand why it is happening.
:25:54. > :25:59.It does not look coherent. Not competent. Not just sad for my party
:26:00. > :26:04.but for the country because when you are in an emergency situation like
:26:05. > :26:11.this, you do need a competent, cohesive, loyal opposition which
:26:12. > :26:16.scrutinises and sizes, but can give support on big issues. That is a
:26:17. > :26:20.problem which I don't know whether it is a sustainable position but the
:26:21. > :26:24.solution will have to be found by the elected Members of Parliament.
:26:25. > :26:30.The young MPs many of whom are very bright and competent. They had to
:26:31. > :26:35.confront that challenge the way those of us who were lucky to be
:26:36. > :26:39.part of a successful Labour team for years actually had to confront that
:26:40. > :26:48.challenge over 17 years before we became successful. Against
:26:49. > :26:52.militant, Scargill and so on. Our success did not come out of a
:26:53. > :26:59.quiescent period of non-argument. But we were moulded and forged by
:27:00. > :27:02.political and ideological debate. That is what led to a changing the
:27:03. > :27:05.country. John Reid, U.
:27:06. > :27:08.The gap between Jeremy Corbyn and Labour MPs grew even further
:27:09. > :27:15.On Monday, the Labour leader said he was "not
:27:16. > :27:18.happy" with UK police or security services operating a "shoot to kill"
:27:19. > :27:21.policy in the event of Paris-style terror attacks in the UK.
:27:22. > :27:25.Many Labour MPs were shocked and a fractious meeting with
:27:26. > :27:26.Labour's parliamentary party ensued that evening.
:27:27. > :27:28.One MP called it a "horrible confrontation".
:27:29. > :27:31.This led to criticism of the Labour leader's stance on Tuesday
:27:32. > :27:37.The former Shadow Chancellor, Chris Leslie, said the need
:27:38. > :27:41.for such a power should be "immediately obvious to everyone".
:27:42. > :27:48.On Wednesday, Ken Livingstone eventually
:27:49. > :27:50.apologised after describing Shadow Defence Minister Kevan Jones
:27:51. > :27:53.The former London Mayor said that Mr Jones, who suffers
:27:54. > :27:57.from depression, should seek "some psychiatric help" after he
:27:58. > :28:02.opposed Mr Livingstone's appointment as chair of a review into Trident.
:28:03. > :28:04.Then, yesterday, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell was
:28:05. > :28:08.at the centre of a row about whether he signed a letter in April calling
:28:09. > :28:12.to "disband MI5 and special police squads and disarm the police".
:28:13. > :28:18.A spokesman for Mr McDonnell said, "John does not share these views."
:28:19. > :28:23.And added that he had thought he was posing with a copy of the
:28:24. > :28:27.Socialist Campaign for a Labour victory's general aims.
:28:28. > :28:29.We've been joined by Ayesha Hazarika, who was a special
:28:30. > :28:32.advisor to Harriet Harman, and by James Schneider, media advisor to
:28:33. > :28:37.Momentum, the campaign group closely associated with Jeremy Corbyn.
:28:38. > :28:46.Thank you both for coming in. Can it go on like this? It has been a
:28:47. > :28:55.terrible week for the Labour Party. The offence last week, of the ilk of
:28:56. > :28:58.9/11, 7/7, a big moment for the whole world which feels like it is
:28:59. > :29:04.on fire from terrorist attacks. You want your leadership to step up
:29:05. > :29:09.and rise above all the party political, who is on what side, and
:29:10. > :29:14.actually reflect where the public are and the anxiety and the fear
:29:15. > :29:18.that the public have. The public should see in the Leader of the
:29:19. > :29:22.Opposition someone they think could be Prime Minister and would put
:29:23. > :29:26.security at the absolute top of his priority list. I am afraid that said
:29:27. > :29:32.did not come across this week. How much of this is just an expense
:29:33. > :29:34.by a bloke who has been on the backbenches, who is clearly in a
:29:35. > :29:41.process of learning how to respond, rather than an ideological position
:29:42. > :29:45.driven through this debate? Whether it is conspiracy or clock up, it has
:29:46. > :29:49.the same effect. People will remember the fact that
:29:50. > :29:53.when there were huge terrorist attacks, we were not clear on whose
:29:54. > :29:57.side we were on as a Labour Party, and not clear about what our policy
:29:58. > :30:03.was on bringing down terrorists who were armed. As one woman said to me
:30:04. > :30:07.yesterday, if someone is coming after my child with a gun, I want
:30:08. > :30:13.the police to go after that person with a bun. Some of it is down to
:30:14. > :30:17.inexperience. When you step up to be Leader of the Opposition and want to
:30:18. > :30:21.be Prime Minister, you have the keys to a very important machine and you
:30:22. > :30:25.have to get better. It is not beyond the wit of anybody, doing an
:30:26. > :30:29.interview, with a generalist, they will ask pressing questions in a
:30:30. > :30:35.terrorist attack and you need answers ready which you think how
:30:36. > :30:46.well the public see this? Putting politics aside, is there not
:30:47. > :30:52.a basic competence questioned about Jeremy Corbyn and his leadership?
:30:53. > :30:56.No, I don't think his leadership has not shown competence, I think there
:30:57. > :31:02.are huge problems within the party which will happen. We have had a
:31:03. > :31:04.very big change am not long ago, the membership of the party
:31:05. > :31:09.overwhelmingly voted for a huge change of direction and that does
:31:10. > :31:14.set the membership and the leadership somewhat at odds with
:31:15. > :31:19.some sections of the party. We need to work out ways to have grown up
:31:20. > :31:23.debates on areas of disagreement and come together. There are big areas
:31:24. > :31:27.where we are very clear what we should be doing, on economic policy,
:31:28. > :31:33.welfare... The performance this week has not been about the tensions
:31:34. > :31:37.between MPs and Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, it has been his response
:31:38. > :31:42.to this. Is he in favour of legal action in a live terrorist situation
:31:43. > :31:48.or not? Confusion. His position on the Syria vote. Confusion. That has
:31:49. > :31:55.nothing to do with the relationship between MPs. I don't think that's
:31:56. > :31:58.true. On the Syria but, he said that party conference voted through a
:31:59. > :32:03.Syrian motion that said without UN support you could not have bombing
:32:04. > :32:07.of Syria. Jeremy has said that will be a whipped vote. That is not
:32:08. > :32:13.confusion. The confusion around what he said around shoot to kill as to
:32:14. > :32:18.been seen -- has to be seen through the lens of certain part of the
:32:19. > :32:23.party being in opposition to his leadership overall. That is not the
:32:24. > :32:28.case. It was a simple question in the interview which he answered. He
:32:29. > :32:32.didn't take that view because his office then clarified his view. The
:32:33. > :32:37.bigger picture, we have had a bad week and we have to move on. We have
:32:38. > :32:40.the Autumn Statement, lots of things. The Tory government is
:32:41. > :32:46.pressing through with things that are damaging people who needed a
:32:47. > :32:49.Labour government and all others in the Labour Party over those people a
:32:50. > :32:57.huge apology for not winning the election. Terrible things are
:32:58. > :33:03.happening with because I Tory majority. Tax credits, peoples
:33:04. > :33:07.rights at work, the Labour, whether you are Momentum, another part of
:33:08. > :33:11.the party, the question we need to ask, are we moving the party closer
:33:12. > :33:16.to the British public in terms of winning the next election? We have
:33:17. > :33:21.to ask that constantly. Have we moved closer to a tipping point
:33:22. > :33:24.where there is some confrontation between the leadership and MPs? The
:33:25. > :33:28.fact that the number of people coming out to criticise Jeremy
:33:29. > :33:36.Corbyn, it questioned how functional the party can be. I hope not. I
:33:37. > :33:42.hope, with so many things being brought forward by the government,
:33:43. > :33:45.cuts to tax credits, squeezing on police budgets, all sorts of
:33:46. > :33:49.government budget in the statement next week, that is an opportunity
:33:50. > :33:54.for the party to come together... You have this opportunity where you
:33:55. > :34:00.can unite around tax credits. It is one of the few issues... You have
:34:01. > :34:04.also got next week a vote on Trident in the House of Commons. You have
:34:05. > :34:11.got to make up your mind on that. I think one of the good things about
:34:12. > :34:15.Jeremy winning, he said he would do things differently. One of the
:34:16. > :34:20.reasons for his big win was that the party had suppressed any debate and
:34:21. > :34:24.stifled discussion because it was a bit vulgar and unseemly and we had a
:34:25. > :34:31.long time with sanitised meetings within the PLP where nobody would
:34:32. > :34:38.say anything. Jeremy and his team should say, it is good and
:34:39. > :34:42.healthy... You say good and healthy, let me read you a quote from Damian
:34:43. > :34:49.McGrane, the former adviser to Gordon Brown. -- McBride. " Corbin
:34:50. > :34:55.has been willing to appoint only true believers to his key Shadow
:34:56. > :35:00.Cabinet and inner circle jobs and it allowing Unite to terrorise staff
:35:01. > :35:10.and MPs like an Marge to the Bolshevik's secret police. " -- like
:35:11. > :35:19.an homage. He is quite an explosive figure, that is the kind of thing he
:35:20. > :35:23.would say. So that is OK? I think that is unhelpful and ridiculous.
:35:24. > :35:30.Clearly we have nothing to do with the KGB. I don't know about Unite
:35:31. > :35:35.harrying party staff. The idea that he has only appointed loyalists is
:35:36. > :35:42.refuted by John Ripa was saying earlier. What about Jeremy's office?
:35:43. > :35:49.Direct communications strategy, the power behind the throne is
:35:50. > :35:58.important, why are those jobs not advertised? Who has ever advertised
:35:59. > :36:02.those jobs? I agree to an extent, I think they are occupied by the same
:36:03. > :36:07.choir. It is problematic from a diversity point of view is everybody
:36:08. > :36:14.you look at is a white guy over 50, that is hugely problematic. They are
:36:15. > :36:18.never going to look at things in a different way and I don't think they
:36:19. > :36:22.are very porous generally. I don't think Ed Miliband advertised those
:36:23. > :36:26.posts fourth and also you are right that there has not been enough
:36:27. > :36:34.debate. Having a debate is a good idea but the other point made, this
:36:35. > :36:40.group around Livingstone, they think they have learned from that and can
:36:41. > :36:51.do it again... Many of the people who worked with Livingstone are very
:36:52. > :36:55.close. The problem which he identified is that that is fine but
:36:56. > :37:02.then he lost two elections one after the other when Labour should have
:37:03. > :37:04.won. The distance from the voters is increasing all the time. And the
:37:05. > :37:08.behaviour of Ken Livingstone this week has made people feel very
:37:09. > :37:13.uneasy about the amount of influence and power he has around Jeremy. I
:37:14. > :37:16.think Jeremy has the right values and is trying to put forward a
:37:17. > :37:22.different kind of politics but you see a lot of people around him
:37:23. > :37:30.exercising a lot of viciousness, we are getting controlled. -- trolled.
:37:31. > :37:39.James come it is very good you are here, so are you the party within,
:37:40. > :37:46.and can you guarantee that Momentum will never campaign to deselect a
:37:47. > :37:52.Labour member of Parliament? No and no. In any capacity? In any
:37:53. > :37:59.capacity, we are not designed to engage in that type of activity. We
:38:00. > :38:03.are trying to build up your power in the country and make the Labour
:38:04. > :38:07.Party more like a social movement, more able to engage with social
:38:08. > :38:11.movements and campaign groups at community and national level. Would
:38:12. > :38:18.you ever accuse any Labour MPs are being closet Tories? We have a code
:38:19. > :38:23.of ethics and we would not do that. Would you speak out against other
:38:24. > :38:27.people who are calling other Labour people Tories and telling them to
:38:28. > :38:31.get out of the party? People should not tell you to get out of the party
:38:32. > :38:38.come Jeremy said that clearly and that is in our code of ethics. Will
:38:39. > :38:43.you call people out on it? If anybody is thinking of it, they
:38:44. > :38:45.should not do it. At all. Thank you very much.
:38:46. > :38:48.Since April this year, convicted criminals in England and
:38:49. > :38:52.Wales have had to pay a criminal courts charge of up to ?1200 towards
:38:53. > :38:57.It was introduced by the government to raise money
:38:58. > :39:03.But it's been opposed by many in the judiciary, and today the
:39:04. > :39:06.Justice Select Committee has called on the charge to be scrapped.
:39:07. > :39:08.Here's the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, talking about
:39:09. > :39:14.Well, I believe in evidence led policy and one of the things that I
:39:15. > :39:18.think it is important we should do is look at the evidence not just
:39:19. > :39:21.from the magistracy, but also, as he points out, in terms of collection.
:39:22. > :39:24.It is the case, it is the case that the criminal
:39:25. > :39:26.courts charge is generating revenue which helps ensure it is not
:39:27. > :39:29.the taxpayer who is the first port of call for supporting what operates
:39:30. > :39:33.But it is important that we balance all of these criteria in making
:39:34. > :39:37.a judgment about the review of the charge.
:39:38. > :39:40.We've been joined by the chairman of the Justice Select Committee, the
:39:41. > :39:52.Why do you want to get rid of these charges? Whatever the principle
:39:53. > :39:56.behind it, it's not working in practice. We have a raft of evidence
:39:57. > :40:00.across the board that think it is not raising the money is supposed
:40:01. > :40:07.to, it may actually end up costing us more. And also, it is having a
:40:08. > :40:09.distorting effect on the way that judges and magistrates sentenced.
:40:10. > :40:15.They are dealing with people with limited means and because they have
:40:16. > :40:19.to impose this charge, with no discretion, they are going easier on
:40:20. > :40:23.things like fines or compensation for victims or costs for the
:40:24. > :40:29.prosecution and that is getting the priorities wrong. Could you not give
:40:30. > :40:34.them more discretion? The principle of how it is currently constructive
:40:35. > :40:39.is wrong and there is also the concern of whether this does wish
:40:40. > :40:45.people into pleading not guilty when they should not. We think it ought
:40:46. > :40:49.to go and if not that, certainly judges should be given a double
:40:50. > :40:52.discretion, first of all as to whether or not to impose the charge
:40:53. > :40:57.at all and secondly how much it is but at the moment they have no
:40:58. > :41:01.discretion on either. Would the taxpayer not say, why shouldn't
:41:02. > :41:04.people convicted of an offence contribute to some of the costs of
:41:05. > :41:09.the court that has found them guilty? Is that not a principle but
:41:10. > :41:14.should be supported? That is one of the arguments made behind the
:41:15. > :41:21.charge. It sounds like a conservative argument. If somebody
:41:22. > :41:24.commits a crime and is brought to court, there will be because of
:41:25. > :41:28.prosecution and the Crown Prosecution Service. What we think
:41:29. > :41:33.is best if that is the area where we should penalise those who have
:41:34. > :41:37.means. If they have got the money, it them on the costs if they string
:41:38. > :41:41.out the proceedings and try it on with the system. If they have heard
:41:42. > :41:46.somebody financially, make sure they pay compensation to that person but
:41:47. > :41:50.you can't get blood out of a stone. Where is the government on this?
:41:51. > :41:54.There are hints that Michael Gove might be rethinking. He was clear
:41:55. > :42:01.about that when he gave evidence to the select committee. There are
:42:02. > :42:04.other ways. Sir Brian Levenson did a very useful report on how to get
:42:05. > :42:10.efficiencies out of the criminal justice system. I think Michael Gove
:42:11. > :42:15.is a rational man and I hope he listens to the evidence. Are you
:42:16. > :42:18.giving him a little cover to move on this? We are responding to the
:42:19. > :42:23.evidence we have heard. Then you have the chairman of the sentencing
:42:24. > :42:27.council, the judicial executive board who are the top judges in the
:42:28. > :42:31.country, right the way through to the magistrates who deal with 95% of
:42:32. > :42:38.the cases every day, that is pretty comp telling evidence. And you also
:42:39. > :42:44.have many magistrates resigning. -- compelling evidence. And there are
:42:45. > :42:46.cases when defendants are encouraged to plead guilty even if they are not
:42:47. > :42:51.guilty because they know that if they are found to be guilty having
:42:52. > :42:56.pleaded not guilty they will have to pay more in charges. If you have a
:42:57. > :43:04.system which is perverting the judicial outcome, that is worrying.
:43:05. > :43:10.Where does the money come from? Judicial systems are run from the
:43:11. > :43:14.public purse. Just because some is a criminal does not mean they have
:43:15. > :43:19.money. To spend a huge at the time and effort getting money out of
:43:20. > :43:22.them, apart from anything else from a moral perspective, is completely
:43:23. > :43:27.pointless. The money has to come from somewhere. It is there to say
:43:28. > :43:30.that if you are squeezing public spending as hard as this government
:43:31. > :43:34.is you will run into problems like this all the time and there may be
:43:35. > :43:41.questioned about whether it is appropriate to squeeze it. There is
:43:42. > :43:44.also the question of pay-as-you-go government but you have to be
:43:45. > :43:50.careful and charging defendants in the judicial system is not the right
:43:51. > :43:53.way to go. Charging patients was groups be right or charging people
:43:54. > :44:00.more on trains... You have to be careful, if you are charging someone
:44:01. > :44:03.who has no choice about being there. That is an important point and there
:44:04. > :44:07.is a distinction between the criminal courts and other courts.
:44:08. > :44:11.You have a choice as to whether it you bring an action for breach of
:44:12. > :44:14.contract for example but you don't have a choice if the state decides
:44:15. > :44:19.to bring a prosecution against you. You are entitled to the projects and
:44:20. > :44:26.of innocent until proven guilty -- presumption. Is there not a wider
:44:27. > :44:30.point that this is another example of the Chris Grayling legacy that is
:44:31. > :44:37.potentially about to be unstitched? Is it a legacy now? Body of work!
:44:38. > :44:41.Michael Gove made clear that he was unhappy with this idea and he is
:44:42. > :44:45.looking for other ways and he even talked about imposing some kind of
:44:46. > :44:49.tax on law firms in London to generate it. I'm not sure that would
:44:50. > :44:55.be popular! But this is not a good way of raising money. And the
:44:56. > :44:58.employment tribunal charges are also massively perverting justice and as
:44:59. > :45:03.soon as you start charging for justice, you perverted the outcome.
:45:04. > :45:09.Is this another example of Michael Gove, the liberal? I don't think he
:45:10. > :45:13.wants to suddenly start saying we need to spend more money so let's
:45:14. > :45:16.raise taxes, it is a problem for a Conservative government, they want
:45:17. > :45:21.to keep cutting spending and they don't want to raise taxes so what do
:45:22. > :45:25.you do? It is quite radical, is not just a simple conservative measure.
:45:26. > :45:26.They are cutting in a radical way and there is nothing to stop them
:45:27. > :45:32.being lest radical. Time now for our regular round-up
:45:33. > :45:35.of the week, in just 60 seconds. Francois Hollande declared
:45:36. > :45:38."France is at war", as the security operation continued
:45:39. > :45:41.after the devastating attacks The PM told MPs Britain should bomb
:45:42. > :45:50.Isis in Syria and, despite concern from the Labour leadership, some
:45:51. > :45:52.Labour MPs agreed with Mr Cameron. They also took issue with
:45:53. > :45:54.Mr Corbyn's stance on a police shoot-to-kill policy,
:45:55. > :46:00.saying they need it. The proportional use
:46:01. > :46:04.of lethal force if needs be... Surprise co-chair of Labour's
:46:05. > :46:07.Defence Review, the anti-Trident Ken Livingstone, reacted quickly to
:46:08. > :46:10.criticism, telling MP Kevan Jones to One storm of outrage later,
:46:11. > :46:15.he apologised on Twitter, 98% of junior doctors voted to
:46:16. > :46:21.strike in a ballot organised by the BMA in protest at the Government's
:46:22. > :46:25.proposed changes to their contracts. Three strikes are planned
:46:26. > :46:27.for December. And David Cameron mimicked US
:46:28. > :46:29.presidents, by ordering himself An RAF voyager will now be
:46:30. > :46:58.transformed into Cam Force One. One of the other things which came
:46:59. > :47:07.at this week was whether the Prime Minister should have his own plane.
:47:08. > :47:11.What do you think? If you are going to be the
:47:12. > :47:15.Government that cannot afford anything, you will always be asked
:47:16. > :47:19.questions about why you can afford a plane.
:47:20. > :47:25.It isn't that expensive and it is to most other heads of governments have
:47:26. > :47:31.more lavish planes. The British Government is reasonably economic.
:47:32. > :47:38.But why was it totally not acceptable for Tony Blair and Gordon
:47:39. > :47:43.Brown, but now it is acceptable. Tony Blair, it chimed with his
:47:44. > :47:50.presidential money grabbing thing. If you remember, if you look how
:47:51. > :47:55.unpopular Tony Blair is now, it is not all Iraq. It is not, it is very
:47:56. > :48:00.much in the sense of him wanting to be part of the international jet
:48:01. > :48:07.set. That is what Gordon Brown tried to close down. Cameron has a load of
:48:08. > :48:11.toxicity but it is not that. It is perhaps a problem between Labour and
:48:12. > :48:18.Conservative leaders. Cameron comes from a posh background
:48:19. > :48:24.and is well off, but they don't get the same attacks as for Tony Blair
:48:25. > :48:29.who has made a lot of money. The Government makes the argument
:48:30. > :48:34.that in their view it will save money. I get on these flights with
:48:35. > :48:38.the Prime Minister all the time, they have too high a jet, endless
:48:39. > :48:45.negotiations with airlines over the price. And which media organisation
:48:46. > :48:51.should pay. It is so tawdry.
:48:52. > :48:56.The media would probably prefer this. I remember going on a flight
:48:57. > :49:00.where the plane had to fly from Abu Dhabi to Mombasa to pick up the
:49:01. > :49:06.British Airways males, and come back to pick up Tony Blair.
:49:07. > :49:10.It was run in the Sun newspaper as a waste of money. That would not
:49:11. > :49:13.happen if he had his own plane. This question has come up because it
:49:14. > :49:18.is one of the many announcements that has fallen off the side of this
:49:19. > :49:23.Spending Review. There is a weekend of news before
:49:24. > :49:29.the actual day. Where do we think George Osborne is? He has a big
:49:30. > :49:34.issue in terms of tax credits. Is he in a good place?
:49:35. > :49:38.He has made a mess of tax credits. The way they try to push through the
:49:39. > :49:42.tax credits was misguided, they should have realised in the House of
:49:43. > :49:49.Lords. His own side, Nigel Lawson saying,
:49:50. > :49:53.what is required is change, she said, the mess that up.
:49:54. > :50:00.He has set himself targets. They did say they would cut the welfare
:50:01. > :50:05.budget, otherwise housing. It will be a tough Spending Review.
:50:06. > :50:09.The thing is, it is coming from the same people. If he does it with
:50:10. > :50:13.housing benefit, that will cause exactly the same few Rory and
:50:14. > :50:19.hardship. I would be more inclined to think he
:50:20. > :50:23.will pull away from the target rather than find money elsewhere,
:50:24. > :50:28.unless he will go for pensions. I think he will ease up on how
:50:29. > :50:31.quickly they get to a success. He will save the economy is growing
:50:32. > :50:36.faster so they do not need to cut the budget as fast. Where the
:50:37. > :50:40.Government is failing if they are protecting too much of the
:50:41. > :50:46.middle-class benefits and those of the elderly. Pensions. Rail
:50:47. > :50:49.subsidies. They are hitting poor people far too much.
:50:50. > :50:53.Is there the underlying question whether or not, when we see the
:50:54. > :50:59.numbers, quite so much money should be protected in the way it is now? A
:51:00. > :51:01.huge amount of that budget is protected. We are asking the wrong
:51:02. > :51:07.questions. Not should those people be
:51:08. > :51:12.protected, but why are you seeking a surplus? You are creating a plan to
:51:13. > :51:16.destroy your own money supply, why? They want to create a narrative
:51:17. > :51:18.where nothing is affordable, therefore everything is up for
:51:19. > :51:24.grabs. That creates problems for them.
:51:25. > :51:28.People did not vote for austerity light.
:51:29. > :51:33.They did not vote for tax credits to be cut. They expressed the voted for
:51:34. > :51:38.a man who said he would not cut tax credits. The ID he is sticking to
:51:39. > :51:44.what he said is not the case. The voters made clear he McCutcheon they
:51:45. > :51:50.believed Labour had overspent which was a cause of the financial crisis,
:51:51. > :51:57.which is arguable. They felt the austerity was right.
:51:58. > :52:01.The question is when you cut through the fat into the bone. Most voters
:52:02. > :52:08.would say ease up a little. Your point about protected areas of
:52:09. > :52:15.spending is an important one. If you get to a position where you protect
:52:16. > :52:19.large chunks of the budget, then cut exceptionally deep to make those
:52:20. > :52:22.numbers add up... And they are mainly falling on local
:52:23. > :52:29.authorities which is a problem. One example, the NHS is protected,
:52:30. > :52:33.but social care spending by local authorities is not. If you cut
:52:34. > :52:35.social care spending, you increase the burden on the NHS, which is
:52:36. > :52:38.foolish. Tomorrow is National Hedgehog Day,
:52:39. > :52:40.and it's a serious business because many people think
:52:41. > :52:42.the prickly creature is in trouble. It's thought that Britain's hedgehog
:52:43. > :52:45.population has fallen by a third in the last ten years,
:52:46. > :52:48.and that there are now fewer than To raise awareness of their plight,
:52:49. > :52:52.one MP is even calling for the hedgehog to become
:52:53. > :52:54.Britain's national symbol, and that controversial suggestion
:52:55. > :53:02.was recently debated in Parliament Hedgehogs are prickly in character,
:53:03. > :53:05.have a vociferous appetite, a passion for gardens,
:53:06. > :53:12.and have a very noisy sex life. Madam Deputy Speaker,
:53:13. > :53:15.I leave it to you to decide as to In a BBC wildlife poll,
:53:16. > :53:27.hedgehogs were chosen as the best natural emblem
:53:28. > :53:33.for the British nation, beating the I ask both sides of this House,
:53:34. > :53:38.because this is not a question that concerns only one
:53:39. > :53:42.party, but all of us. Do we want to have
:53:43. > :53:46.as our national symbol an animal which, when confronted
:53:47. > :53:49.with danger, rolls over into a Do we want to have as
:53:50. > :53:57.our national symbol an animal that Or would you rather return to
:53:58. > :54:03.the animal that is already our national symbol, I refer,
:54:04. > :54:05.of course, to the lion. Joining me now is Hugh Warwick
:54:06. > :54:18.from the British Hedgehog Preservation Society and author
:54:19. > :54:30.of several books about hedgehogs. Let us begin by that point by Rory
:54:31. > :54:35.Stewart, why should the hedgehog be our national symbol?
:54:36. > :54:43.We have spent our time being too seduced by Mrs Tiggy Winkle. If we
:54:44. > :54:48.go back to the ancient Greeks, they saw the hedgehog is physically wide,
:54:49. > :54:52.a very intelligent animal. The fox knows many things but the hedgehog
:54:53. > :54:58.knows just one and this is a good thing, said one philosopher.
:54:59. > :55:01.I liked the idea of spending most of the winter tucked up asleep, I had
:55:02. > :55:08.to say. The point was made that it is a
:55:09. > :55:11.little bit modest, perhaps, as a national symbol.
:55:12. > :55:16.The hedgehog is in the 1% of all animals who have ever lived on the
:55:17. > :55:25.planet, bigger than 99% of all animals that have ever lived.
:55:26. > :55:30.Most animals are Beatles! The hedgehog is not an immodest animal.
:55:31. > :55:34.Something people in this country deeply care about.
:55:35. > :55:37.You can't imagine and England footballer kissing the three
:55:38. > :55:43.hedgehogs on his football shirt. Do you think the English football
:55:44. > :55:49.team would perform any worse? Good question. I leave that hanging
:55:50. > :55:53.in the yeah. Tell us about the concerns about the numbers, are they
:55:54. > :55:58.as serious as being portrayed? I have been working with the
:55:59. > :56:03.preservation Society and we have been collecting together research to
:56:04. > :56:08.find out. The proposition has declined by at
:56:09. > :56:13.least one third in ten years. Tomorrow is the day of the hedgehog,
:56:14. > :56:18.we have a big conference in Telford, launching our latest results.
:56:19. > :56:23.We are keeping on top of this. This rate of decline is something we
:56:24. > :56:30.should be concerned about. The hedgehog, whilst we are fond of
:56:31. > :56:37.it as a garden animal, when it is affected, it is an indicator of what
:56:38. > :56:41.is wrong with our environment. They feed on the little bugs and beasts,
:56:42. > :56:44.worms and Beatles, in the margins of our fields.
:56:45. > :56:48.Part of the population decline hedgehogs are suffering is tied into
:56:49. > :56:53.the fact these are being wiped out from our landscape in the rural
:56:54. > :56:57.setting. We need to look at ways of bringing that back into a more
:56:58. > :57:03.wildlife friendly setting. And work that into our suburban patch which
:57:04. > :57:06.is why we have launched our project.
:57:07. > :57:10.Someone suggested today hedgehogs have some potential role in curing
:57:11. > :57:16.baldness, is this true? There have been many uses of the
:57:17. > :57:21.hedgehog, used to cure pretty much everything from piles to impotence.
:57:22. > :57:27.I wouldn't waste too much time rubbing hedgehogs into your head
:57:28. > :57:31.just yet. What do you think? Should be hedgehog be a national
:57:32. > :57:35.symbol for us as much of MPs be talking about this?
:57:36. > :57:40.I am not sure. Our national symbols tend to be front, the line is not
:57:41. > :57:44.native to Britain, St George came from the Caucasus.
:57:45. > :57:46.I would not make the hedge of our symbol but it clearly needs
:57:47. > :57:52.rescuing. I realise I do not care whether we
:57:53. > :57:57.have a civil or not. That is so Guardian newspaper.
:57:58. > :58:02.You will now have to start writing a column about what people can do to
:58:03. > :58:05.help protect them. What can people do to protect
:58:06. > :58:11.hedgehogs? The best thing is to join our
:58:12. > :58:15.campaign, you will find it on the Internet. Don't just make your
:58:16. > :58:20.garden hedgehog friendly but look to your hedgehog Gardens, make a hole
:58:21. > :58:27.in your fence, ask them to, creating not just one small patch but an
:58:28. > :58:29.entire street for hedgehogs. Everyone can share the hedgehog
:58:30. > :58:33.love. I don't understand about making
:58:34. > :58:37.their move around. If you have a whole, they need to
:58:38. > :58:38.travel around. Clearly a debate which will never
:58:39. > :58:41.finish. Thanks to Zoe,
:58:42. > :58:43.John and all my guests. Andrew will be back on Sunday on BBC
:58:44. > :58:47.One at 11 with the Sunday Politics. And Jo will be here
:58:48. > :58:50.on BBC Two with more Daily Politics The first illustration
:58:51. > :59:08.shows Hitler and Himmler It became clear that this porcelain
:59:09. > :59:12.was actually made