:00:37. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.A Russian fighter jet is shot down by Turkish warplanes
:00:43. > :00:47.Moscow denies the plane was in Turkish airspace.
:00:48. > :00:50.We'll have the latest on this developing story.
:00:51. > :00:54.George Osborne boosts funding for the NHS in England
:00:55. > :00:57.by ?4 billion - but can the health service deliver huge
:00:58. > :01:03.efficiency savings AND deliver David Cameron's promise of a 7 day NHS?
:01:04. > :01:06.The SNP forces a vote in the commons on the renewal of the
:01:07. > :01:10.UK's trident nuclear deterrent, as the government confirms the cost has
:01:11. > :01:18.And Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage go head-to-head
:01:19. > :01:33.over Britain's membership of the EU at an Oxford Union debate.
:01:34. > :01:40.When I worked in the EU it took 15 years for them to sign the
:01:41. > :01:44.definition of chocolate. Anything that takes a decade and a half to
:01:45. > :01:47.decide is no sinister superstate. And with us for the whole
:01:48. > :01:52.of the programme today, the former Labour Secretary Alan Johnson,
:01:53. > :01:54.who is now heading up Labour's Yes So,
:01:55. > :02:04.this morning the Turkish government confirmed two of its warplanes
:02:05. > :02:08.shot downa Russian fighter jet which it says was flying in Turkish
:02:09. > :02:11.airspace on the border with Syria. Turkey says its pilots warned
:02:12. > :02:14.the Russian plane ten times in five The Kremlin denied the plane was
:02:15. > :02:18.in Turkish airspace, and says it's a 'very serious
:02:19. > :02:21.incident' but that it's too early to Let's talk now to our Moscow
:02:22. > :02:43.Correspondent, Sarah Rainsford. A couple of, contradictory versions?
:02:44. > :02:47.The Turkish and the Kremlin have both sought to undermine but they
:02:48. > :02:54.say is the fact that this Russian plane didn't enter Turkish airspace,
:02:55. > :02:57.the statement we have got from the Defence Ministry earlier today said
:02:58. > :03:01.that the plane was in Syrian airspace at all times and said it
:03:02. > :03:05.could actually prove that, it said there was objective information and
:03:06. > :03:11.proof of that, we haven't yet seen that. It also said that unlike the
:03:12. > :03:15.Turkish military, which is saying this Russian plane was shot down in
:03:16. > :03:20.the sky by the Turkish jets after violating its airspace, Russia is
:03:21. > :03:26.saying that it believes the plane was shot down from the ground,
:03:27. > :03:30.suggesting it is rebel air forces in Syria that brought down the plane.
:03:31. > :03:34.So keep points of contradiction, the picture is starting to emerge. The
:03:35. > :03:39.key question is how Russia responds. We haven't heard from resident
:03:40. > :03:44.putting yet, we may hear from him later, he is meeting the King of
:03:45. > :03:49.Jordan today -- President Putin. We understand there is a meeting of
:03:50. > :03:52.Nato being convened to discuss the issue so the response of Russia will
:03:53. > :03:57.be critical now in what is a delicate situation. The fate of the
:03:58. > :04:02.pilot and crew will be critical as to whether this situation
:04:03. > :04:08.escalates? I think it will. Certainly one of the key elements in
:04:09. > :04:12.terms of Russia's response. We understand from videos that have
:04:13. > :04:18.emerged that at least one of the pilots who ejected from the plane as
:04:19. > :04:22.it was brought down was killed, whether on the ground or whilst
:04:23. > :04:25.injecting, or when the plane was struck, the fate of the second pilot
:04:26. > :04:32.is still unclear. Officially speaking both pilots's fates are
:04:33. > :04:36.unclear. Russia says it is working to establish the circumstances. But
:04:37. > :04:40.the suggestion that two pilots may have been killed will contribute to
:04:41. > :04:45.the whole discussion and the fervour around what happens next. Russian TV
:04:46. > :04:50.has been quite belligerent in its response so far, one channel is
:04:51. > :04:55.talking about the need for retribution. President Putin may
:04:56. > :05:00.come at this from a position of trying to calm things down, but
:05:01. > :05:03.certainly it complicated the situation around Syria, where I
:05:04. > :05:08.think Russia had been hoping for increased cooperation with the
:05:09. > :05:15.coalition against Islamic State targets, Russia had been targeting
:05:16. > :05:19.them for almost two months. They had been hopes that campaign could be
:05:20. > :05:21.co-ordinated with the US-led coalition, this obviously
:05:22. > :05:23.complicated that situation further. We're joined now
:05:24. > :05:26.by the foreign affairs analyst, Tim Marshall and by Colonel Bob
:05:27. > :05:29.Stewart, a former British army officer and a Conservative member
:05:30. > :05:41.of the defence select committee. Obviously this is hugely sensitive
:05:42. > :05:44.and potentially very dangerous because we're talking about two
:05:45. > :05:48.countries that aren't exactly mad about each other, particularly over
:05:49. > :05:53.the border area between Turkey and Syria, but the Russians have not
:05:54. > :05:57.gone so far as to blame anyone yet and they are saying it's too early
:05:58. > :06:03.to draw conclusions, is that a note of optimism? Very much so. There are
:06:04. > :06:10.reasons to believe this will play out diplomatically over a few days,
:06:11. > :06:15.it will be a huge dramatic row but it is, where was that plane? It was
:06:16. > :06:23.over a border town, which is right on the border, they are both going
:06:24. > :06:29.to claim the opposite. Crucially, the Turkish Foreign Minister Lavrov
:06:30. > :06:34.will be meeting his opposite number tomorrow, and all the noises coming
:06:35. > :06:37.out of Moscow say they will try and deal with this diplomatically. That
:06:38. > :06:41.is why they need call heads, if people say and do the wrong things,
:06:42. > :06:46.this type of incident can spark a war. At the moment the signs are
:06:47. > :06:49.that it won't. There is an extraordinary meeting of Nato at the
:06:50. > :06:56.moment, how do you think that will be handled? Very carefully! The fact
:06:57. > :07:03.is, I agree with what Tim has said, it makes the urgency of coordination
:07:04. > :07:10.of the air assets above Syria something that perhaps Nato will be
:07:11. > :07:17.talking about. You have coalition jets in the skies and also Syrian
:07:18. > :07:23.jets, so this is very important, the imprecations are, we have to get it
:07:24. > :07:29.together. We will come onto how it might affect David Cameron making
:07:30. > :07:33.case for air strikes on little later. But let's get back to this
:07:34. > :07:36.border area because the reports coming out say that there was
:07:37. > :07:43.already unhappiness because there is a Turkish minority on the border
:07:44. > :07:49.area, they were feeling pursued by Russian air strikes, they weren't
:07:50. > :07:55.hitting I S necessarily, but the rebel groups. Is that the
:07:56. > :07:58.background? Whether that is directly related and they took the plane down
:07:59. > :08:04.from the ground, we will find that out. The Syrian top men are several
:08:05. > :08:17.thousand, they are of Turkish origin but they are Syrian. -- the Syrian
:08:18. > :08:20.Turkmen. They are in a stronghold area of the government, there has
:08:21. > :08:24.been a lot of heavy fighting, the Russians have been putting in air
:08:25. > :08:27.strikes against them, they are absolutely furious about it, they
:08:28. > :08:34.would regard it as in their interest to bring down the Russian plane. If
:08:35. > :08:39.the pilot or both of them with the Syrian Turkmen and there is footage
:08:40. > :08:44.of some Turkmen advancing up a hill to trees with a parachute in it,
:08:45. > :08:49.that is the next question. What will they do with the pilot and what will
:08:50. > :08:53.the Russians do about that pilot? That is the background, it is the
:08:54. > :08:58.Syrian Turkmen part of Syria where this has happened. The airspace has
:08:59. > :09:02.become more crowded since the Russians intervened, how does that
:09:03. > :09:07.intervene making a case for British air strikes in Syria? It's
:09:08. > :09:12.potentially damaging but with the way this was panning out, resolution
:09:13. > :09:16.20 to 49 of the UN Security Council, David Cameron due to
:09:17. > :09:25.response to the Defence Select Committee on Thursday, it depends. I
:09:26. > :09:28.agree, it looks as if Russia is not going to make a big deal of that,
:09:29. > :09:35.certainly we need Turkey and Russia to be working together, not at odds
:09:36. > :09:40.with each other. What do you think it will do, will it make David
:09:41. > :09:47.Cameron's case on Thursday more difficult? I don't think it'll have
:09:48. > :09:53.much impact. I think it will have impact but it will be seen... We had
:09:54. > :10:00.to get real. If this threat from Daesh is touch the great deal -- is
:10:01. > :10:08.such a great threat to our country, we now have 22 and 49 resolutions
:10:09. > :10:13.which say, nations of the world, understand this is a real threat. We
:10:14. > :10:19.are going to have to start thinking about who else we might have to deal
:10:20. > :10:23.with, and that does include President Assad's Syria, we may have
:10:24. > :10:28.to deal with him and others in that area to deal with such a great
:10:29. > :10:32.threat. Is that how you see it? If we are talking about rules of
:10:33. > :10:37.engagement, because this will focus minds on those rules and how we
:10:38. > :10:45.would be able to participate if and when the boat happens? I am not
:10:46. > :10:49.entirely with him, in public opinion and the wavering opinion in the
:10:50. > :10:55.house, those who are thinking, I'm not sure if we should get involved,
:10:56. > :10:57.it will concentrate minds. The Americans and the Russians talk to
:10:58. > :11:01.each other about how not to crash into each other, the French and the
:11:02. > :11:05.Turkish have been part of the process and of the British get
:11:06. > :11:10.involved, they will have to get involved by Nato. Basically you ring
:11:11. > :11:16.each, my plane is here, your plane is there, did that happen today?
:11:17. > :11:22.Possibly not. It's a very dangerous situation. The French and the
:11:23. > :11:29.Russians have been getting together increasingly closely, for almost a
:11:30. > :11:33.joint military action. That will also complicate the talks. Everybody
:11:34. > :11:37.has got to talk around the same table and that's what I do agree on.
:11:38. > :11:44.They have to talk to the Syrians, they are flying as well. It's a
:11:45. > :11:49.mess. Just before we go on, Al Jazeera are reporting by pilots are
:11:50. > :11:53.dead, so I will come to you for a response on that -- both pilots. Is
:11:54. > :11:58.it a mess that Labour MPs are going to want to vote in favour of,
:11:59. > :12:03.British air strikes? Like MPs across the house, Labour MPs will be
:12:04. > :12:09.looking at what David Cameron's plan is. This is very different to August
:12:10. > :12:14.2013. What happened in Paris is obviously a game changer, the UN
:12:15. > :12:20.resolution makes it clear that we would... I want to know what happens
:12:21. > :12:25.after this, because you won't win this from the air, there has to be
:12:26. > :12:30.ground forces going in afterwards. Not British or American, they should
:12:31. > :12:35.be led by Syria. This is where Bob's question comes in, who is our
:12:36. > :12:41.enemy here? Assad or Isis? Can't fight them both at the same time. Do
:12:42. > :12:45.you think Jeremy Corbyn is right to be cautious and not back air
:12:46. > :12:50.strikes. He is right to be cautious, MPs across the house will be
:12:51. > :12:56.cautious, this will not be a parade for Cameron. He hasn't laid up the
:12:57. > :13:04.ground yet. Maybe he will but he hasn't done it yet. That's the
:13:05. > :13:07.pilots being dead change things? A tragedy but frankly, they are in a
:13:08. > :13:14.martial profession, in diplomatic terms, it won't make much difference
:13:15. > :13:17.if President Putin decides to soft-pedal on it. If they died as
:13:18. > :13:23.they came down, it actually makes things less complicated. That there
:13:24. > :13:26.is no hostage or prisoner of war situation. If they were killed on
:13:27. > :13:30.the ground, the Russians might feel they need to respond.
:13:31. > :13:32.In just 24 hours, George Osborne will get to his feet
:13:33. > :13:35.in the House of Commons to deliver his Spending Review - covering
:13:36. > :13:43.But today he has announced a big chunk of his review in advance.
:13:44. > :13:47.This morning the chancellor confirmed that front line NHS
:13:48. > :13:50.services in England will get an extra ?3.8 billion above
:13:51. > :13:54.Those able to cast their minds back will remember the Conservatives made
:13:55. > :13:57.a pledge to give the NHS ?8bn by 2020 over and above inflation to
:13:58. > :14:21.The Chief Executive the NHS England has asked for it to be front-loaded
:14:22. > :14:26.and the increase in funding forms part of the spending review to be
:14:27. > :14:31.unveiled tomorrow. This follows weeks of intense negotiations with
:14:32. > :14:37.NHS bosses who are concerned that NHS trusts in England are on target
:14:38. > :14:42.for a ?2 billion deficit this year. The medicine may leave a bitter
:14:43. > :14:46.taste in the mouths of nurses as the Chancellor is expected to phase out
:14:47. > :14:52.publicly funded bursaries and replaced them with student loans.
:14:53. > :14:57.The extra money also comes at a price. It must be used to contribute
:14:58. > :15:01.towards the government's goal of a seven-day NHS and the service must
:15:02. > :15:12.still make agreed efficiency savings of ?2 billion. -- 22 billion.
:15:13. > :15:14.We promised that the people's priority would be this
:15:15. > :15:18.In this spending review, we are making a huge ?10 billion commitment
:15:19. > :15:23.We are giving the money up front so the NHS can implement its own plan
:15:24. > :15:29.There have to be savings elsewhere in Government spending to pay
:15:30. > :15:33.for this but it just goes to show you can only have a strong NHS
:15:34. > :15:39.Joining us now from Nottingham is Janet Davies,
:15:40. > :15:47.Chief Executive General Secretary of the Royal College of Nursing.
:15:48. > :15:53.Do you welcome this injection of cash?
:15:54. > :15:58.Absolutely. We know trusts are struggling at the moment, and there
:15:59. > :16:03.is a need for investment in our NHS and we welcome that injection of
:16:04. > :16:07.cash we are hearing about. But we are concerned about other things
:16:08. > :16:11.where we have no details, that student nurses themselves may be
:16:12. > :16:17.paying for some of that by losing their bursaries and going for loans.
:16:18. > :16:21.What impact would that have? A number of things, student nurses
:16:22. > :16:26.are not the same as others, 50% of their time is spent in clinical
:16:27. > :16:33.practice. They have longer terms, a longer year. Not able and money in
:16:34. > :16:38.bars etc because of their clinical commitments. The second concern is
:16:39. > :16:42.we do not want some of the lowest paid professional groups to be
:16:43. > :16:46.landed with a huge debt at the end of training.
:16:47. > :16:50.In fact, if we look at salaries for nurses, it may not say too much
:16:51. > :16:54.because unless the Government is intending to give a large pay rise
:16:55. > :17:00.to nurses, then they will never pay that back, they will never earn
:17:01. > :17:05.enough to pay the loan back. One of the big concerns is whatever scheme
:17:06. > :17:08.we are looking at, not only can we increase the number of student
:17:09. > :17:16.nurses which we need to do and not put them off, but we take account of
:17:17. > :17:22.the age of student nurses. The average age is 29. Many people come
:17:23. > :17:27.into nursing as a second career and we should welcome that, people with
:17:28. > :17:32.life experience offered on a second career. Compassionate, intelligent
:17:33. > :17:36.individuals. Many of these people would not be able to access a loan
:17:37. > :17:41.under the current system because they have done a degree, accessed
:17:42. > :17:48.other courses or had a loan. We do not want to restrict access. We have
:17:49. > :17:52.worked for years to widen access. Thanks you for talking to us about
:17:53. > :17:54.the impact that could have if money is taken away from student nurses in
:17:55. > :17:56.terms of bursaries. We're joined now by the Conservative
:17:57. > :17:59.MP Dr Dan Poulter, who was a health minister in the coalition
:18:00. > :18:07.government. Welcome back. We have seen an angry
:18:08. > :18:11.reaction from junior doctors in terms of the offer being made by the
:18:12. > :18:19.Government. What about this reaction from nurses if their bursaries are
:18:20. > :18:23.going to be taken away, lowest paid in the NHS? It is difficult to make
:18:24. > :18:27.these vacation until we know what the Chancellor says tomorrow.
:18:28. > :18:35.The important thing is to welcome the huge funding to the NHS, ?3.8
:18:36. > :18:41.billion is much needed. Important when we have an NHS increasingly
:18:42. > :18:44.struggling with finances that we put this money in upfront.
:18:45. > :18:50.It gives the NHS breeding time to put in place the efficiency savings
:18:51. > :18:57.on procurement, back office savings. The money being put in is
:18:58. > :19:02.probably a minimum amount the NHS needs to get through a challenging
:19:03. > :19:08.period. How much should it be to see the NHS through the next years?
:19:09. > :19:14.The Government has committed ?10 billion. The key is to make
:19:15. > :19:19.efficiency savings. Is that doable? It will be
:19:20. > :19:23.challenging. To make it possible, to realise those efficiencies, it is
:19:24. > :19:29.important to prime the NHS with money now to get through a difficult
:19:30. > :19:32.winter. And allow breathing space to invest in mental health services,
:19:33. > :19:39.primary care, make sure the money goes where...
:19:40. > :19:44.Stretching the pot of money beyond the realms of imagination.
:19:45. > :19:49.If it is correct that actually bursaries for nurses will be cut, is
:19:50. > :19:54.it right to take the money out of the pockets of NHS workers to pay
:19:55. > :19:57.for this? We have to see what the Chancellor says.
:19:58. > :20:04.It is difficult to speculate in advance. The challenge with nursing
:20:05. > :20:09.was there was difficulty getting people to enter the profession, one
:20:10. > :20:16.reason why bursaries were introduced, mostly because nurses
:20:17. > :20:18.generally tend to be older, or have family or financial commitments.
:20:19. > :20:24.Bursaries were introduced for this reason.
:20:25. > :20:29.In your experience, would this be a major blow to nurses?
:20:30. > :20:33.It would. We had a problem with midwives, when the birth rate
:20:34. > :20:40.suddenly came up again. We have a problem with agency workers who are
:20:41. > :20:44.very expensive. Growing our own workforce is an essential part of
:20:45. > :20:49.planning ahead. Bursaries are a major part. Janet was eloquent in
:20:50. > :20:54.the short time she had available, most people think of students as
:20:55. > :20:59.being 18-25. Having time available to work in pubs and bars while they
:21:00. > :21:04.are studying. Student nurses cannot do that.
:21:05. > :21:09.It would be a hugely retrograde step.
:21:10. > :21:14.Dan can't speak frankly but I think he would feel the same.
:21:15. > :21:19.He is smiling. I was fairly frank. I know as
:21:20. > :21:26.Secretary of State you looked at some issues and one challenge was
:21:27. > :21:28.facing nursing and that a free is older people are entering these
:21:29. > :21:33.professions with financial commitments and it was a challenge,
:21:34. > :21:38.part of the reason the bursaries were introduced. The impact of this
:21:39. > :21:44.on what that will mean for recruitment had to be carefully
:21:45. > :21:48.evaluated. A traditional recruitment of overseas nurses has reduced in
:21:49. > :21:54.busy years which means it is more important to focus on getting a
:21:55. > :22:01.stream through from Britain. Let us talk about the funding.
:22:02. > :22:07.This money will give the NHS enough time to make the savings, ?22
:22:08. > :22:12.billion savings, do you think that is doable? A welcome investment.
:22:13. > :22:17.I cannot understand why in an error when we had a defence spending
:22:18. > :22:24.Review the Government is committed to 2% of GDP on defence, 0.7% of GDP
:22:25. > :22:28.on international development, but the 9% of GDP spent on health has
:22:29. > :22:33.disappeared. In our time in the early days of the Labour Government
:22:34. > :22:38.we were committed to raising the average we spend on health, the
:22:39. > :22:44.amount, to the European average. That has suddenly gone. I am not
:22:45. > :22:52.sure where we are now but I guess it is around 7%.
:22:53. > :22:55.It is, 7.4%, and it will fall from that.
:22:56. > :23:00.Why do we as a commitment from the nation, as we're doing it on
:23:01. > :23:05.development, why not one help? Even with the extra money, public
:23:06. > :23:10.funding for the NHS will fall as a share of GDP, can that really be
:23:11. > :23:15.done when we have got rising population, more medicine, higher
:23:16. > :23:17.bills, can it be done if we are not going to commit even to the amount
:23:18. > :23:23.of spending other European countries do?
:23:24. > :23:27.In the long term, I agree with Alan, there is a rising demand on the
:23:28. > :23:33.health service, which comes from an ageing population, where by 2018 who
:23:34. > :23:37.will have 3 million people with long-term conditions to care for.
:23:38. > :23:43.That is a human challenge and very expensive. There are some
:23:44. > :23:47.efficiencies that can be made. On procurement, buying in bulk,
:23:48. > :23:53.economies of scale. Not enough to deal with a bigger
:23:54. > :23:57.financial challenge. Trusts are ?1.6 billion into the red in the first
:23:58. > :24:02.six months of the financial year, the worst on record.
:24:03. > :24:06.A challenging situation, no doubt. Does there need to be more money?
:24:07. > :24:11.The Chancellor has made an announcement to give the NHS
:24:12. > :24:15.breathing space. Important investment needs to be
:24:16. > :24:22.made and some of that will need to go into technology which could drive
:24:23. > :24:28.about ?10 million of efficiency and deliver better care to frail people.
:24:29. > :24:32.Some say that needs to be a fundamental change. On local
:24:33. > :24:36.authorities being able to increase council tax to plug the gap in
:24:37. > :24:41.social care funding, is that the right way to go in terms of trying
:24:42. > :24:44.to shift the association with the tax increase on two local
:24:45. > :24:51.authorities? Local authorities have a responsible for local services so
:24:52. > :24:56.there is an argument to say that it allows local authorities to make a
:24:57. > :25:03.case to raise more money. They say 2% would be enough. There is no
:25:04. > :25:06.doubt that you cannot differentiate between health and social care, it
:25:07. > :25:10.is one system, and unless we properly fund the social care system
:25:11. > :25:15.be that through local or national means, it will have a knock on
:25:16. > :25:17.effect on vulnerable people and NHS. Thank you.
:25:18. > :25:21.Yesterday we had updated figures on the cost of replacing Trident,
:25:22. > :25:23.when the Government published its Strategic Defence And
:25:24. > :25:31.The latest estimate is that manufacturing four replacement
:25:32. > :25:37.submarines is likely to cost a total of ?31 billion. That's
:25:38. > :25:40.an increase on previous estimates, which put the cost at around ?25
:25:41. > :25:49.In case costs overrun, the Government will also set aside
:25:50. > :25:51.another ?10 billion. The first submarine will enter service
:25:52. > :25:53.in the early 2030s, later than originally planned.
:25:54. > :25:55.The Government said the new cost plan reflected
:25:56. > :25:57.a "greater understanding" about the design and manufacture
:25:58. > :26:10.This is the SNP defence spokesman in Parliament. What do you hope to
:26:11. > :26:16.achieve from the opposition debate today?
:26:17. > :26:21.When we were elected in May, we were elected on three platforms, one was
:26:22. > :26:30.to get the maximum devolution of power to Scotland and delivery. And
:26:31. > :26:35.to oppose the austerity agenda. The third was to oppose Trident renewal.
:26:36. > :26:39.Within the first six months of us being elected, we have fulfilled
:26:40. > :26:45.that promise we made to the Scottish people. The motion has no legal
:26:46. > :26:49.force, it is sure to be defeated. You are just playing politics, you
:26:50. > :26:53.just want to expose the divisions within the Labour Party?
:26:54. > :26:58.I am astonished that you think we would have to take this boat to the
:26:59. > :27:02.House of Commons in order to expose the divisions within the Labour
:27:03. > :27:06.Party. Those divisions are there for all to see.
:27:07. > :27:10.You want to make them more evident. This is an entirely legitimate
:27:11. > :27:16.motion to take to the Scottish Parliament, to the House of Commons.
:27:17. > :27:19.Scotland has spoken very strongly against Trident, the Scottish
:27:20. > :27:25.Government has opposed Government, the Scottish parliament is opposed.
:27:26. > :27:30.It is not a devolved issue. The Scottish chart watchers are
:27:31. > :27:35.opposed, the SNP, Green party -- Scottish churches.
:27:36. > :27:40.We have a legitimate right to come here and put forward the case
:27:41. > :27:43.against Trident. There is a consensus in Scotland and we are
:27:44. > :27:47.articulating that. Alan Johnson, they are not playing
:27:48. > :27:52.politics, they have a right to hold this notion, it is not exposing
:27:53. > :27:55.divisions which are there for all to see.
:27:56. > :28:01.Of course they can put down as the motion. We will abstain. It will not
:28:02. > :28:06.have the slightest effect on the renewal of Trident. In 2007 when we
:28:07. > :28:10.were in Government, we had a vote on the principle of whether we should
:28:11. > :28:16.renew Trident. I was one of those marching through with my colleagues
:28:17. > :28:25.and it was over well. The next stage in between Grzegorz Krychowiak is
:28:26. > :28:29.the main gate. No manufacturing. On a replacement until we have gone
:28:30. > :28:33.through the main gate, that is the big decision next year. I can't
:28:34. > :28:38.understand why the Government are not confirming whether there will be
:28:39. > :28:43.a vote. That is where Renton and all elected MPs will have a meaningful
:28:44. > :28:47.say. We know what the SNP, where they stand.
:28:48. > :28:51.Whether the mud stands, and labour policy is to renew Trident. The
:28:52. > :29:00.leadership was to review that decision. If that wrong? To review
:29:01. > :29:07.it? Perfectly sensible to review it. We do not know where Labour stands.
:29:08. > :29:11.We do. We do not stop they may be reviewing it, our current policy is
:29:12. > :29:16.determined at conference has not been changed, we are in favour of
:29:17. > :29:22.multilateral nuclear disarmament. Brendan and I would agree, the
:29:23. > :29:28.question is how is it best to proceed to a non-nuclear...
:29:29. > :29:33.What I would say is I don't see how you can hide behind a fig leaf of
:29:34. > :29:39.multilateralism while committing to spend 167,000 million pounds on a
:29:40. > :29:44.new generation of nuclear weapons. How much? You cannot argue we make
:29:45. > :29:50.the world a safer place by investing that amount of public money on more
:29:51. > :29:58.weapons of mass destruction. That cost has gone up. ?31 billion, not
:29:59. > :30:04.?100 billion. Let us take those figures it has gone up by ?6 billion
:30:05. > :30:13.with ?10 billion as contingency. The lifetime costs of Trident, 167,000
:30:14. > :30:19.million pounds, the lifetime cost. That is ridiculous, that includes
:30:20. > :30:26.decommissioning. It has gone up from ?25 billion. ?625 million a year
:30:27. > :30:32.over a 50 year life span. It is expensive. It is not excessive.
:30:33. > :30:36.Rendon asked... This is the thing with the unilateral side, they
:30:37. > :30:41.question the integrity of anyone who dares suggest that we are safer as a
:30:42. > :30:48.country if we have a nuclear deterrent. I have seen no argument
:30:49. > :30:51.to suggest it is safer now than in 2007. We took a decision in
:30:52. > :31:03.Parliament to begin the process of Trident renewal.
:31:04. > :31:07.security is I would argue vehemently that Trident undermines our national
:31:08. > :31:11.security, because it's not a defensive weapon, it's a political
:31:12. > :31:18.weapon. It is there to secure the UK's place at the top table of the
:31:19. > :31:22.UN Security Council. It is a vanity project, and incredibly expensive
:31:23. > :31:30.and ultimately worth vanity project, because these weapons can never and
:31:31. > :31:33.will never be used. Your party is in favour of remaining part of Nato, so
:31:34. > :31:41.you just don't want nuclear weapons on the Clyde? Not at all, we want
:31:42. > :31:47.rid of nuclear weapons. If you are accusing us of hypocrisy, I suggest
:31:48. > :31:51.you go around just about every other member of Nato and do the same.
:31:52. > :31:55.You've got to start disarmament somewhere, and we're not even asking
:31:56. > :32:05.the Labour Party to agree to disarm, we're asking them not to renew, not
:32:06. > :32:10.to spend 167,000... It's not that... Hang on, Brendan. Allen, isn't it a
:32:11. > :32:14.problem that we won't know where Labour stands for a long time,
:32:15. > :32:23.because... We know where Labour stands now. It could change. The
:32:24. > :32:26.Labour Party had a policy, has a policy as you say, it could change
:32:27. > :32:31.and we're not going to know and the voters want no until there has been
:32:32. > :32:37.this long process. Political parties review their policies... This is a
:32:38. > :32:43.key decision! It is but our policy is we are in favour of retaining
:32:44. > :32:46.Trident. We are reducing the number of warheads and our nuclear
:32:47. > :32:52.capability... Scottish Labour are against it. They decided they were
:32:53. > :32:59.against it, the National party decided not to... Brendan, what is
:33:00. > :33:07.your party's position on supporting military action in Syria? Very
:33:08. > :33:11.briefly. If we are led to believe, as we were told during the
:33:12. > :33:13.referendum campaign, that we are a family of nations, and this
:33:14. > :33:19.particular section of the family says, they do not want Trident
:33:20. > :33:27.nuclear weapons, and you say, too bad, we're going to foist them upon
:33:28. > :33:31.you, it's unacceptable. Brandon, can I just ask you, what is the SNP
:33:32. > :33:38.position on supporting military action in Syria? We have set
:33:39. > :33:44.unequivocally, that there has be a chapter seven resolution, that the
:33:45. > :33:48.government cannot come back and offer up what they are offered up in
:33:49. > :33:55.the past and expect us to meekly accept what they offered up, there
:33:56. > :33:59.has to be a chapter seven resolution and there after we will look at what
:34:00. > :34:05.the government has to say. You weren't satisfied with the human
:34:06. > :34:10.resolution passed on Friday? I don't think you can accept that the
:34:11. > :34:14.enabling resolution on Friday was a green light or has given legal
:34:15. > :34:15.legitimacy for military action, it has to be a chapter seven
:34:16. > :34:24.resolution. Yesterday, the Prime Minister
:34:25. > :34:26.announced ?12 billion worth of extra defence funding as part
:34:27. > :34:30.of the Government's Strategic He plans to spend the money on two
:34:31. > :34:36.5,000-strong strike brigades, additional F35 jets, maritime patrol
:34:37. > :34:38.aircraft and high-altitude drones. Here's a reminder of the PM's
:34:39. > :34:39.statement, Over the course of this Parliament,
:34:40. > :34:48.our priorities are to deter state-based threats, to tackle
:34:49. > :34:54.terrorism, to remain a world leader in cyber security, and ensure we
:34:55. > :34:57.have the capability to respond To meet these priorities, we will
:34:58. > :35:03.continue to harness all the tools Coordinated through the
:35:04. > :35:07.National Security Council to deliver This includes support for our
:35:08. > :35:12.Armed Forces, counter-terrorism, international aid and diplomacy, and
:35:13. > :35:16.working with our allies to deal with At the moment, this country's
:35:17. > :35:22.overwhelming focus is on the threat we face from terrorism, and how we
:35:23. > :35:26.can best ensure the defeat of Isil. Labour supports
:35:27. > :35:28.the increased expenditure to strengthen our security services
:35:29. > :35:35.announced to protect However,
:35:36. > :35:38.faced with the current threat, the public will not understand or accept
:35:39. > :35:42.any cuts to front-line policing. We are naturally focused
:35:43. > :35:44.on the immediate threats today, but it is disappointing there is
:35:45. > :35:51.insufficient analysis in the national security strategy, of the
:35:52. > :35:54.global threats facing our country, Inequality, poverty, disease,
:35:55. > :35:59.human rights abuses, climate change, I have no idea why members opposite
:36:00. > :36:06.find food security such Most of his statement was
:36:07. > :36:13.about the importance The importance of shipbuilding
:36:14. > :36:17.on the Clyde. The importance of having high
:36:18. > :36:22.morale amongst our Armed Forces. "Why do we have to be able to have
:36:23. > :36:30.planes, transport aircraft, aircraft carriers, and everything else to get
:36:31. > :36:34.anywhere in the world, why?" Is it the same honourable gentleman
:36:35. > :36:37.sitting opposite us thinking of all these uses for our
:36:38. > :36:54.Armed Forces when, a few months ago, What did you make of Jeremy
:36:55. > :36:59.Corbyn's performance there? It wasn't his finest hour but it's
:37:00. > :37:07.difficult to respond to these issues. I think the general issue
:37:08. > :37:11.about Jeremy is he believes very strongly in the issues he has been
:37:12. > :37:18.involved in in the past, whether it is stop the War, CND, and he's not
:37:19. > :37:22.could change, he was elected as leader with all of that and he's not
:37:23. > :37:27.going to change overnight. It might cause in the difficulty at certain
:37:28. > :37:41.debates across the dispatch box, but by and large, it was a refreshing
:37:42. > :37:44.change. Towards the end, when I was watching yesterday, there were
:37:45. > :37:51.hardly any Labour MPs on the benches behind Jeremy Corbyn at one point,
:37:52. > :37:54.and the Conservative benches were chatting all the way through, they
:37:55. > :37:58.weren't really listening to what Jeremy Corbyn was saying. Is that
:37:59. > :38:03.the profile you want for the leader of the party? Suspect that the
:38:04. > :38:07.expectation was that the Defence Secretary was going to announce the
:38:08. > :38:10.result of the spending review and that Vernon Coker would have been
:38:11. > :38:14.responding so it was a surprise to me that the Prime Minister did it
:38:15. > :38:21.himself, that means Jeremy as Leader of the Opposition would have to do
:38:22. > :38:26.it. But it looked to me as if Jeremy was the last minute trough did in...
:38:27. > :38:32.It wasn't an issue he would have been steeped in, as I am not
:38:33. > :38:38.either,... You are not the leader of the Labour Party. There were some
:38:39. > :38:43.issues, I think it was) to raise. His general point was, you can
:38:44. > :38:50.defend your country, of course, with new weapons and replacing weapons,
:38:51. > :38:57.but the issues that cause wars or in ration the food and hunger and water
:38:58. > :39:00.security. Why are some of the parliamentary colleagues in the
:39:01. > :39:05.Labour Party surprised by Jeremy Corbyn? Theistic into his
:39:06. > :39:10.principles. He hasn't changed his views. -- he is sticking to his
:39:11. > :39:14.tentacles. Yet there are Blairite MPs who have openly defied him in
:39:15. > :39:20.the House of Commons on things like shoot to kill, on the fact he said
:39:21. > :39:25.Jihadi John should have been arrested and not killed by a drone
:39:26. > :39:31.attack. Is it right openly defied a leader in the house? I think he's
:39:32. > :39:36.the last person to talk about MPs defining leadership, that is part of
:39:37. > :39:40.what he has been doing for 30 years. -- defying the leadership. Whoever
:39:41. > :39:45.won the leadership election, this will be a tough time in terms of the
:39:46. > :39:52.new leader... Is it right for MPs like Ian Austin and Emma Reynolds to
:39:53. > :39:54.stand up... It is right for them to stand up at parliamentary Labour
:39:55. > :40:00.Party meetings and state their views. What about in the Commons?
:40:01. > :40:04.You are referring to the statement the Prime Minister made last week,
:40:05. > :40:10.and in fact, Jeremy Corbyn changed his comment on shoot to kill, I
:40:11. > :40:15.think a lot of people were making it plain in the light of the Paris
:40:16. > :40:18.attack, that yes, we must ensure that our security services are
:40:19. > :40:26.properly equipped. So Jeremy Corbyn was wrong? He was wrong to say that
:40:27. > :40:29.shoot to kill for Jihadi John, as he was termed was wrong. Are you
:40:30. > :40:37.worried about Labour trailing so far behind in the polls? The latest one
:40:38. > :40:41.has them 15 points behind. There was another one that showed us only two
:40:42. > :40:46.points behind yesterday. The polls get interesting as you get closer to
:40:47. > :40:50.a general election. At the moment I don't think anyone should be driven
:40:51. > :40:58.by the polls. I want Labour to be back in power, we are seeing what
:40:59. > :41:01.has happened lost the election. I think anyone who was elected leader
:41:02. > :41:06.in this last election would be given a period of two years, there was
:41:07. > :41:11.talk about people only standing for a certain period and having another
:41:12. > :41:14.election. I think the party would be reluctant to go into another
:41:15. > :41:18.election with a leadership that didn't look as if they could win
:41:19. > :41:26.that general election and that would have counted if Liz or Andy or if it
:41:27. > :41:31.had won it. Does it work having a section of the party at total odds
:41:32. > :41:38.with the leader of the party? Whether it be defence, national
:41:39. > :41:41.security. It is very difficult, you have to have confidence in the
:41:42. > :41:45.parliamentary Labour Party to lead the Labour Party. There are some
:41:46. > :41:48.people who believe that the answer to that is to change the
:41:49. > :41:53.parliamentary Labour Party, that isn't going to happen. You have to
:41:54. > :41:58.have the confidence of the political party you are leading in Parliament.
:41:59. > :42:01.Margaret Thatcher resigned because she got close on 200 votes in the
:42:02. > :42:07.first round but went because she didn't have sufficient support.
:42:08. > :42:09.We've been joined now by Simon Hardy, a spokesman for the Left
:42:10. > :42:13.Unity Party which, over the weekend, voted to suspend its plans to stand
:42:14. > :42:17.in next year's elections, and support Jeremy Corbyn instead.
:42:18. > :42:27.Tell us why. We've set up three or so years ago in response to the fact
:42:28. > :42:35.that a lot of people... Labour Party was in standing up for the values
:42:36. > :42:38.they wanted. Now with Jeremy Corbyn, it is beholden on anyone who shares
:42:39. > :42:45.his values and principles to get stuck in and make sure he can make a
:42:46. > :42:50.good job of being leader. You're confident he will be able to remould
:42:51. > :42:55.the Labour Party in his image? I think he absolutely has to. The fact
:42:56. > :43:00.that so many in the Labour Party, the core voters are leaving the
:43:01. > :43:05.party, 70 of their strategists think the only way they can win elections
:43:06. > :43:09.is by being a shadow of what the Tory party are saying, Jeremy Corbyn
:43:10. > :43:13.is the best hope to try and turn that around, win back those people
:43:14. > :43:18.and put principles of social justice at the mainstream of British
:43:19. > :43:22.politics today. Do you agree, you have been a light version of the
:43:23. > :43:27.Tory party? It is the kind of rubbish I have heard spouted all my
:43:28. > :43:35.political life. He needs to be in a difficult and macro different
:43:36. > :43:40.political party. The accusation goes, there is arms of the Labour
:43:41. > :43:45.Party should be... Jeremy Corbyn never went off onto forming
:43:46. > :43:49.organisations to stand against the Labour Party and fight them. This
:43:50. > :43:56.guy despises the Labour Party and has no place in the Labour Party.
:43:57. > :43:58.What do you say to that? I'm not a member and I certainly don't despise
:43:59. > :44:04.the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn represents. The Labour Party that
:44:05. > :44:09.this country needs... He's a middle-class intellectual. I know
:44:10. > :44:12.that you are bitter because you can do that didn't win the election but
:44:13. > :44:17.you need to let me speak because you're being a bit rude. The point
:44:18. > :44:21.is that Jeremy Corbyn is a mainstream politician, against
:44:22. > :44:26.austerity, against the war, against racism, against nuclear weapons...
:44:27. > :44:29.We are all against that. A lot of people are responding to the
:44:30. > :44:34.message, thousands are joining the party now, not because of Yvette
:44:35. > :44:38.Cooper, if people like you were to get behind Jeremy and the politics
:44:39. > :44:41.he represents, the Labour Party might have a fighting chance on a
:44:42. > :44:46.national and local level of changing this country for the better, that's
:44:47. > :44:49.rubbish, that's common sense. I have been with Jeremy all the time, he
:44:50. > :44:58.never went off on one of these flights of fancy. He never agreed
:44:59. > :45:02.with you. We introduced sure start, we reduced child poverty, we
:45:03. > :45:06.attacked pensioner poverty, we gave trade unionists the right to be
:45:07. > :45:09.represented, the right not to be sacked for going on strike you have
:45:10. > :45:13.done none of that. All you have done is print out your leaflets despising
:45:14. > :45:17.the Labour Party and suggest that over here is a plausible
:45:18. > :45:20.alternative. You have added doesn't work so you would come into the
:45:21. > :45:24.Labour Party and you won't be welcome.
:45:25. > :45:35.If he is saying trade unionists, activists around the country... Are
:45:36. > :45:41.not welcome in the Labour Party, that is a very...
:45:42. > :45:48.I am an anti-racist, what makes you different?
:45:49. > :45:58.But the principles at heart of the Labour Party, they have always been
:45:59. > :46:02.the principles. All this Tory light rubbish.
:46:03. > :46:07.Have you been welcomed into the Libby Path -- Labour Party?
:46:08. > :46:12.I haven't joined... Have you been welcomed by Jeremy
:46:13. > :46:18.Corbyn? I haven't had an official response
:46:19. > :46:23.but I know Jeremy Corbyn has said he welcomes people with the same values
:46:24. > :46:26.as him, similar to my values, joining the Labour Party and
:46:27. > :46:31.fighting to make it the kind of party that can win the election in
:46:32. > :46:35.2020. The response by Alan is indicative of the kind of
:46:36. > :46:39.undermining going on by some people in the Labour Party and the right
:46:40. > :46:44.wing press attacking Jeremy or casting doubt on him because I am
:46:45. > :46:49.not sure they are really behind the 60% of the Labour Party members who
:46:50. > :46:54.voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become leader.
:46:55. > :46:57.Are you undermining? Should some of your colleagues stop undermining
:46:58. > :47:02.Jeremy Corbyn? We should back our elected leader,
:47:03. > :47:08.that is what we should do. Right. No more undermining. But we
:47:09. > :47:13.shouldn't allow people to suggest that antiracism is somehow the
:47:14. > :47:18.preserve of some left wing students union group who have now decided to
:47:19. > :47:21.join the Labour Party. Thank you very much.
:47:22. > :47:24.Now, much has been written on how the Conservatives secured
:47:25. > :47:27.But the lurid accounts of one element
:47:28. > :47:29.of that campaign will be making for increasingly uncomfortable
:47:30. > :47:33.The Road Trip 2015 scheme saw a volunteer army of young Tories
:47:34. > :47:37.bussed into marginal seats to campaign on the ground.
:47:38. > :47:39.But Mark Clarke, who ran the scheme, has since been banned
:47:40. > :47:45.from the party after accusations of bullying, harassment and blackmail.
:47:46. > :47:51.But how exactly Road Trip 2015 was run, and who knew how much and when,
:47:52. > :47:52.has seen the party's chairman, Lord Feldman,
:47:53. > :47:54.and former co-chairman Grant Shapps facing awkward questions.
:47:55. > :48:04.Giles has been looking into the story.
:48:05. > :48:12.Give us the background, who has been accused?
:48:13. > :48:20.Mark Clark has been banned for life by the party which is interesting.
:48:21. > :48:24.The 2014 brainchild, a former 2010 Conservative candidate in tooting, a
:48:25. > :48:30.successful in winning his seat which was a surprise to some. He had been
:48:31. > :48:33.dubbed as going to the top by Tatler.
:48:34. > :48:38.Shortly after losing, his then girlfriend came out and said
:48:39. > :48:42.publicly he was not fit to be an MP and he did subsequently get removed
:48:43. > :48:49.from the candidate list. In 2014, he came back with road
:48:50. > :48:53.trip, bussing in Young Conservatives into marginal constituencies in the
:48:54. > :48:57.campaign and get them campaigning vigorously on the ground. The party
:48:58. > :49:01.was happy with that, it was sanctioned and part funded by
:49:02. > :49:07.Central office. Funding was livid with the blessing of the co-chairs
:49:08. > :49:15.Grant Schatz and Lord Fellman. On the ground, Mark was in charge. 38,
:49:16. > :49:19.in charge of a lot of activists in their 20s over weekends bust into
:49:20. > :49:24.these areas. There is another dimension to this
:49:25. > :49:29.story. This idea was about securing seats for the Conservatives but
:49:30. > :49:34.transparently and joked about as a rehabilitation tour for him. I put
:49:35. > :49:40.that point to him face to face in June, his answer was, it certainly
:49:41. > :49:44.did not hurt. Where are we now with this? Big
:49:45. > :49:47.problems. They are starting to come to the
:49:48. > :49:55.doorstep of senior figures in the party, particularly Grant Schatz.
:49:56. > :50:01.There are lurid headlines of sexual impropriety, blackmail, bullying.
:50:02. > :50:05.That aside, what we know, one of the things which is tragic, we probably
:50:06. > :50:10.would not know this if it hadn't been for the death in September of a
:50:11. > :50:15.Young Conservative Elliot Johnson who in a note after his death named
:50:16. > :50:21.Mark Clark and accused him of bullying him. Johnson had also
:50:22. > :50:26.accused Clarke of pinning him to a chair in a pub, and recorded
:50:27. > :50:34.secretly Mark Clark him threatening him. Edit Johnson saying he had
:50:35. > :50:39.properly done this before. We know now a lot of other people thought
:50:40. > :50:44.that. There is a heated e-mail exchange from August, one month
:50:45. > :50:52.before edit Johnson died. I have this here, between Paul Abbott and
:50:53. > :50:56.Mark Clark. Whilst explaining, a nasty exchange, about how much he
:50:57. > :51:01.has had to do with road trip and keep it on the road, and defending
:51:02. > :51:07.Mark Clark when in fact their work he says people in CC HQ only to shut
:51:08. > :51:11.it down, he says this included dealing with all the complaints made
:51:12. > :51:16.about road trip and your behaviour from associations, activists, MPs,
:51:17. > :51:23.candidates, of which you are well aware. It shows the aid was well
:51:24. > :51:31.aware of existing complaints which had been made. Grant points at the
:51:32. > :51:35.moved on from the chair when major allegations were made. Lord Feldman
:51:36. > :51:40.who said he did not know about these allegations until August, has been
:51:41. > :51:45.criticised and countered by a new MP who told Newsnight he knew about
:51:46. > :51:48.them much sooner. The problem is coming closer to senior members of
:51:49. > :51:50.the party. We will keep coverage on it, thank
:51:51. > :51:51.you. Think of the famous fights
:51:52. > :51:53.in history. But who could forget
:51:54. > :51:56.Clegg versus Farage? The then Deputy Prime Minister
:51:57. > :51:58.and the leader of Ukip went head-to-head over
:51:59. > :52:03.Britain's membership of the EU, in a TV debate during the campaign for
:52:04. > :52:06.the European elections last year. They must have missed each other
:52:07. > :52:08.because, last night, they staged a rematch at one
:52:09. > :52:11.of the world's most famous debating And, just to let you know,
:52:12. > :52:20.the dress code was formal. Here, they queue for five hours
:52:21. > :52:23.in the cold to get In the 1930s, the Oxford Union
:52:24. > :52:29.became world-famous when students here voted not to fight in a war
:52:30. > :52:33.for King and country. Tonight, they are grappling with
:52:34. > :52:37.another generational issue, As usual, the audience is full
:52:38. > :52:46.of politicians in training. I want to be a Prime Minister, and,
:52:47. > :52:50.if not, an adviser to the I addressed the General Assembly,
:52:51. > :52:53.like, 12 times in my life. Here come the former president
:52:54. > :53:05.of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso,
:53:06. > :53:07.and Nick Clegg speaking in favour. Opposing is Tory MP Bill Cash
:53:08. > :53:12.and Ukip leader Nigel Farage. It appeared the Eurocrat strategy
:53:13. > :53:17.is to love-bomb the UK. The single market, or internal
:53:18. > :53:23.market as we sometimes call it, in fact to a large extent was pushed
:53:24. > :53:32.by Britain, by Margaret Thatcher. We had a great European Commission
:53:33. > :53:36.president such as Roy Jenkins. Enlargement, the fact today, the
:53:37. > :53:43.Czech Republic and central European countries are members, that was
:53:44. > :53:45.very much a project of Margaret Things got tetchy when Bill Cash
:53:46. > :53:51.raised the Paris terror attacks. The important point
:53:52. > :53:53.about the question of the Over the past 20 years,
:53:54. > :54:03.90% of terrorist acts committed in European lands were committed
:54:04. > :54:05.by domestically-born European No one is denying
:54:06. > :54:08.the fact that that is the case. What I'm saying is the Schengen
:54:09. > :54:16.arrangements, and the border issue, has created the circumstances
:54:17. > :54:20.in which these people came in. Nick Clegg lost an election,
:54:21. > :54:23.but has gained a sense of humour. When I worked in the European Union,
:54:24. > :54:27.it took 15 years for the European Union to decide
:54:28. > :54:31.the definition of chocolate. Anything that takes
:54:32. > :54:33.a decade-and-a-half to decide I don't want my little children to
:54:34. > :54:45.grow up in a United Kingdom which is broken apart, and
:54:46. > :54:48.the remains of which are drifting That is not a proud future I want
:54:49. > :54:56.my country, for my children, for my country,
:54:57. > :54:58.not the proud future I would argue Yes, Nick Clegg being applauded
:54:59. > :55:06.by a group of students. Nigel Farage, on the other hand,
:55:07. > :55:09.went for I want you, please, to think
:55:10. > :55:18.of Britain and the EU being In the early days,
:55:19. > :55:32.it was pretty good. But it's been getting increasingly
:55:33. > :55:37.rotten over the last 25 years. Of course, a lot of people said, no,
:55:38. > :55:40.you must stay with him. I know he makes all the rules
:55:41. > :55:49.and the laws in the house. I know he forbids you
:55:50. > :55:53.from making your own friends. Then, the votes, done in the same
:55:54. > :55:57.way as they do it in Parliament. The Oxford Union voting that Britain
:55:58. > :56:03.and Europe are better together. And we've been joined by the
:56:04. > :56:16.Ukip MP Douglas Carswell. Is this what it is going to be like,
:56:17. > :56:23.debates like this? More evenhanded than yesterday.
:56:24. > :56:29.Does this excite the voters? When people realise that we have been
:56:30. > :56:33.part of this club for 40 years, it costs us ?350 million a day, enough
:56:34. > :56:38.to build a new hospital every week, people will realise we could change
:56:39. > :56:42.this and open ourselves up to the world and be an international
:56:43. > :56:45.player. Rehashing these arguments, maybe
:56:46. > :56:51.there are no new arguments to be made, but if we are looking at 18%
:56:52. > :56:55.of undecided, is that what will sway them?
:56:56. > :57:01.The extraordinary thing is how close both camps are. I will be interested
:57:02. > :57:06.in Alan and his view. About the third have made up their
:57:07. > :57:10.mind they are in favour of saying, but 30% going the other way.
:57:11. > :57:15.Everything is to play for Hutcheon of staying.
:57:16. > :57:19.Pragmatic, sensible economic debate is what is needed from our side to
:57:20. > :57:23.win. More than half the public according to a recent poll Hutcheon
:57:24. > :57:27.recent poll want to leave the European Union, the first time in
:57:28. > :57:32.that monthly survey. That does not subvert -- surprise
:57:33. > :57:36.me. A lot of people on my side of the
:57:37. > :57:41.debate thought this would be a walk in the park. It won't be.
:57:42. > :57:45.There are awful lot of people who will focus on this over the coming
:57:46. > :57:50.months. I believe Britain is stronger and safer in Europe, better
:57:51. > :57:56.off. That debate will happen to be had. I hope we can ignite the same
:57:57. > :58:05.excitement as in Scotland. Britain, if we leave the EU, in Scotland,
:58:06. > :58:13.where every vote counts, not like Parliamentary elections, including
:58:14. > :58:17.Northern Ireland, I hope we can generate that enthusiasm. You talked
:58:18. > :58:20.about the economics being Central, what about immigration?
:58:21. > :58:27.That poll was done in light of the Paris attacks. Do you think that is
:58:28. > :58:34.inflection of public anxiety? It would be unfortunate if anyone
:58:35. > :58:37.used scare tactics... Has Nigel Farage done that?
:58:38. > :58:43.We must make certain we do not say things that appeal to our worst
:58:44. > :58:47.instincts. The way to win is to show people we can be a better country,
:58:48. > :58:53.more international, we can control our borders but we're not going to
:58:54. > :58:57.close them. We are part of a club which has lost control of migration
:58:58. > :59:02.and monetary policy. If we take back control, that is the sensible thing.
:59:03. > :59:07.We can be an international country, outward looking, open to the world,
:59:08. > :59:15.but in control of our destiny. That is the tone we need to strike.
:59:16. > :59:20.Douglas is the sensible voice of this debate and Nigel isn't. We
:59:21. > :59:27.still have free movement outside the EU, we will be weaker.
:59:28. > :59:31.Thanks to all my guests, especially Alan Johnson.
:59:32. > :59:35.'..Viking, North Utsire, South Utsire, East Forties,