:00:36. > :00:39.Afternoon folks and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:46.The ayes to the right 397, the noes to the left, 223, so the ayes have
:00:47. > :00:56.Parliament decides and RAF tornadoes take off for their
:00:57. > :01:03.first sorties over Syria - but will MPs votes hasten the defeat of IS?
:01:04. > :01:07.Last night's vote left Labour MPs and the Shadow Cabinet split.
:01:08. > :01:11.What will be the consequences for Labour MPs who defied
:01:12. > :01:15.the apparent will of the majority of party members?
:01:16. > :01:21.IS, Isis, Isil or Daesh - what should we call the Islamist
:01:22. > :01:28.And after a dramatic night in the Commons,
:01:29. > :01:36.why the palace of Westminster is such a popular setting for fiction?
:01:37. > :01:39.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:40. > :01:41.of the programme today, the Daily Mail's parliamentary
:01:42. > :01:49.So the Government won last night's vote with 397 in favour
:01:50. > :02:02.In the Conservative Party there were seven rebels who voted against
:02:03. > :02:06.the airstrikes, and seven who abstained on the Labour benches.
:02:07. > :02:08.153 voted against the government, 66 in favour
:02:09. > :02:20.And that balance was reflected in the Shadow Cabinet,
:02:21. > :02:22.with 17 voting against extending airstrikes but 11 voting in favour,
:02:23. > :02:29.So we heard David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn opening the debate
:02:30. > :02:35.Let's get a taste now of some of the other contributions in over
:02:36. > :02:38.10 hours of deliberations ahead of last night's vote, including
:02:39. > :02:42.an impassioned plea from the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, for
:02:43. > :02:46.Labour MPs to support the government's plan to extend air
:02:47. > :02:57.I find this decision as difficult as anyone to make.
:02:58. > :03:01.I wish I had, frankly, the self-righteous certitude
:03:02. > :03:04.of the finger-jabbing representatives of our new
:03:05. > :03:11.Who will no doubt soon be contacting those of us who
:03:12. > :03:20.But I believe, I believe that Isil-Daesh has to be
:03:21. > :03:23.confronted and destroyed if we are to properly defend
:03:24. > :03:27.I believe that this motion provides the best way to
:03:28. > :03:35.When you are thinking about the hard choice that has to be
:03:36. > :03:42.You may feel pious about it, looking back on the wrong decision
:03:43. > :03:49.But a very similar decision confronts us tonight.
:03:50. > :03:53.Instead of having dodgy dossiers, we now have bogus battalions
:03:54. > :04:02.This twisted perversion of Islam that is to Islam what fascism is to
:04:03. > :04:05.nationalism, that is to Islam what communism is
:04:06. > :04:11.to socialism, this vile, Stalinist death cult, this dreadful regime,
:04:12. > :04:20.Sadly, the only way to stop it is not through talks.
:04:21. > :04:24.These are people, this is a group that does not wish to speak to us.
:04:25. > :04:27.They have defined us clearly in their theology as infidel.
:04:28. > :04:30.They have taken the readings of Mohammed of the Wahhab and
:04:31. > :04:38.They have defined us, sir, as people who must die or convert.
:04:39. > :04:48.We are being asked to intervene in a bloody civil war of huge complexity.
:04:49. > :04:53.We are being asked to do it without an exit strategy
:04:54. > :04:56.and no reasonable means of saying we are going to make a difference.
:04:57. > :05:00.We should not give the Prime Minister that permission.
:05:01. > :05:05.I hope the house will bear with me if I direct my closing remarks to
:05:06. > :05:10.my Labour friends and colleagues on this side of the house.
:05:11. > :05:15.As a party, we have always been defined by our internationalism.
:05:16. > :05:19.We believe we have a responsibility, one to another.
:05:20. > :05:21.We never have and we never should walk by
:05:22. > :05:32.And we are here, faced by fascists, not just their calculated brutality
:05:33. > :05:36.but their belief that they are superior to every single one
:05:37. > :05:41.of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the people we represent.
:05:42. > :05:49.They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt.
:05:50. > :05:52.They hold our democracy, the means by which we will make
:05:53. > :05:59.And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated.
:06:00. > :06:10.And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists
:06:11. > :06:13.and trade unionists and others joined the International Brigades in
:06:14. > :06:20.It is why this entire house stood up against Hitler and Mussolini.
:06:21. > :06:23.It is why our party has always stood up against the denial
:06:24. > :06:31.And my view, Mr Speaker, is that we must now confront this evil.
:06:32. > :06:39.It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria.
:06:40. > :06:44.And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for this motion tonight.
:06:45. > :07:08.A snapshot of some of the contributions in the debate on
:07:09. > :07:13.Syrian air strikes finishing with Hilary Benn, widely regarded as the
:07:14. > :07:18.standard speech of the ten hour debate. It prompted applause on both
:07:19. > :07:21.sides of the House of Commons, which under parliamentary convention you
:07:22. > :07:25.are not meant to do. Quentin, how did it shape up as a parliamentary
:07:26. > :07:30.occasion? Not particularly well until half past nine. Then it really
:07:31. > :07:35.took off when Hilary Benn was on his feet. It was most like seeing a
:07:36. > :07:41.plane take off from an aircraft carriers. We shot off the runway at
:07:42. > :07:51.speed. That was a speech, as you got a flavour there, it had repetition,
:07:52. > :07:54.variety, emotion, anger. It also directed against the fascists of our
:07:55. > :08:01.enemy. That was what was brilliant about the speech. He computed it
:08:02. > :08:05.through a perfectly reasonable Labour ideology of standing up
:08:06. > :08:09.against fascists and his own side suddenly saw there was a good reason
:08:10. > :08:15.for supporting the bombing action. Do you think he swung some Labour
:08:16. > :08:19.votes? I do. Stella Creasy has said she was persuaded. I suspect some
:08:20. > :08:24.others work, too. It was a slightly bigger majority than expected. The
:08:25. > :08:30.day began with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.
:08:31. > :08:35.David Cameron made a stupid mistake when he made a remark that a private
:08:36. > :08:42.meeting of Conservative MPs about some terrorist sympathisers opposing
:08:43. > :08:45.the war. Stupid thing to do. That led to lots of interruptions of his
:08:46. > :08:51.speech. Jeremy Corbyn started pretty well by attacking Mr Cameron on that
:08:52. > :08:54.point. Once he had gnawed the meat of the bone on that particular
:08:55. > :08:59.pointy and very little to say. He was really dislodged by a question
:09:00. > :09:03.from John Woodcock about whether or not he supported action in Iraq. And
:09:04. > :09:09.after that, Mr Corbyn was going nowhere. He responded to that in a
:09:10. > :09:13.rather tetchy way. We saw perhaps that Jeremy Corbyn is not quite as
:09:14. > :09:20.tolerant as congenial a colleague as he might claim to be. We saw 's
:09:21. > :09:24.strong speeches from Margaret Beckett and Alan Johnson. There were
:09:25. > :09:27.Tory rebels as well. Seven voting against the Government, seven
:09:28. > :09:36.abstaining. Any strong contributions from them? Use -- might you saw some
:09:37. > :09:41.clips area. A Conservative MP from Twickenham was close to tears at one
:09:42. > :09:47.point talking about the emotion. I think if you are an MP you should
:09:48. > :09:52.not be a big Bertie about this but she was obviously moved. Margaret
:09:53. > :10:00.Beckett, very strong. That speech was text and around two Labour
:10:01. > :10:04.waverers. And Julian Lewis, a powerful voice in the Conservatives,
:10:05. > :10:07.was raising some questions that he would say, perhaps we might agree,
:10:08. > :10:13.the David Cameron was perhaps not quite able to answer, about the
:10:14. > :10:18.strength of the Syrian Armed Forces. Where does Labour go from here? I
:10:19. > :10:22.think it goes into a therapy suite! I cannot see there is much
:10:23. > :10:28.likelihood of the two sides of the Labour Party getting on with each
:10:29. > :10:32.other. It is ludicrous. In the press lobby at Westminster you have two
:10:33. > :10:37.teams of briefers. One briefing for war, the other against. This cannot
:10:38. > :10:40.continue. You need unity as a party if you are going to make sense of
:10:41. > :10:45.the political arguments. Technically I said Labour rebels.
:10:46. > :10:50.They were not rebels in the sense it was a free vote. No but I think we
:10:51. > :10:55.can understand there was a tremendous amount of pressure on
:10:56. > :10:58.Labour MPs to do as Jeremy Corbyn and the Stop the War Coalition
:10:59. > :11:03.wished. In that sense there was a rebellion, a rebellion against the
:11:04. > :11:06.corporate leadership. It is a nice point about whether it was whipped
:11:07. > :11:07.or not but that is the basic reality.
:11:08. > :11:10.After last night's vote, RAF planes wasted no time embarking
:11:11. > :11:12.on a campaign they've been planning for months.
:11:13. > :11:15.Four RAF Tornados took off from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus
:11:16. > :11:22.It's the first sortie in a mission that will also involve
:11:23. > :11:26.Tornado planes can carry the Brimstone missile - a weapon that's
:11:27. > :11:32.particularly effective at hitting moving targets with great accuracy.
:11:33. > :11:38.There are hundreds of different armed groups fighting in Syria,
:11:39. > :11:43.The government's forces are concentrated
:11:44. > :11:46.around Damascus and in the west of the country.
:11:47. > :11:51.To the north and south of them are the so-called moderate rebels,
:11:52. > :11:57.In the north, along the Turkish border, there are the
:11:58. > :12:02.Our bombs will be targeting so-called Islamic State.
:12:03. > :12:05.They control a huge swathe of territory across Syria and
:12:06. > :12:09.The Defence Secretary has confirmed that last night they hit the
:12:10. > :12:15.Omar Oil Fields in eastern Syria, very close to the Iraq border.
:12:16. > :12:17.It is targets in Raqqa - IS' de facto capital
:12:18. > :12:21.- that are likely to be the focus for the bombing, which is
:12:22. > :12:26.Meanwhile, the Russians have said they soon hope to have more than
:12:27. > :12:32.They also claim to be hitting IS targets, but intelligence suggests
:12:33. > :12:35.that many of their bombs are, in fact, falling on targets of the
:12:36. > :12:39.moderate rebel forces that we're relying on to fight the ground war.
:12:40. > :12:43.This is what the Defence Secretary said this morning.
:12:44. > :12:47.There was a lot of talk in the House of Commons about bombing Raqqa.
:12:48. > :12:54.This is about cutting off the Daesh terrorists, cutting off their supply
:12:55. > :12:58.routes, dealing with the oil and the smuggling and making sure that they
:12:59. > :13:02.can't reinforce their efforts in Iraq and that they don't become a
:13:03. > :13:08.safe haven for terrorist attacks in Britain. There are plenty of targets
:13:09. > :13:12.in eastern Syria that the French and the other air forces involved
:13:13. > :13:20.With this strong decisive vote in the House of Commons, the RAF is now
:13:21. > :13:30.able to strike in Syria, just as it has already been striking in Iraq.
:13:31. > :13:38.That was the Defence Secretary. We're joined by Frank Gardner and by
:13:39. > :13:48.Crispin Blunt. Frank Gardner, the Tornado jets had
:13:49. > :13:52.their first bombing raids in Syria. They chose to go to these oilfields
:13:53. > :13:58.in the east. They have already been attacked by American and other
:13:59. > :14:01.allied planes. On October the 21st there was a much bigger attack than
:14:02. > :14:08.there was last night. What happens next in the British effort over the
:14:09. > :14:12.skies of Syria? Well, the Tornado pilots did not choose the targets.
:14:13. > :14:19.They were selected for them. They were selected by the operation
:14:20. > :14:24.centre and cat are but it would have been done with political approval by
:14:25. > :14:28.Michael Fallon. It was done very carefully. You can imagine how
:14:29. > :14:33.politically disastrous it would be if the very first air strike carried
:14:34. > :14:37.out by an RAF plane went and mistakenly bombed a school or a
:14:38. > :14:41.hospital, or there were civilian casualties. The RAF say that in over
:14:42. > :14:44.400 air strikes they have conducted in Iraq over the past year, there
:14:45. > :14:49.has not been a single civilian casualty. It is hard to validate
:14:50. > :14:54.that on the ground. You cannot do the bomb damage assessment. You have
:14:55. > :14:57.no freedom of access. They have not had any reports of civilian
:14:58. > :15:03.casualties. Where do they go from here? Britain is sorting into a
:15:04. > :15:11.wider air campaign predominantly by the Americans but also that the
:15:12. > :15:15.French and in conjunction with the Russians, who are doing their own
:15:16. > :15:21.targeting. Britain will have some say in what the targets are. They
:15:22. > :15:24.have got officers and analysts in Qatar who are poring over satellite
:15:25. > :15:28.maps and intelligence and looking at what the targets are. But
:15:29. > :15:30.essentially we will be a small cog in a very big machine run by the
:15:31. > :15:39.Americans. The oilfields are being hit, the
:15:40. > :15:45.ones under control of Islamic State because they get revenues from them,
:15:46. > :15:49.by selling the oil to be but you live in areas controlled by Islamic
:15:50. > :15:51.State. But we are told it is also exported and Turkey has been
:15:52. > :15:57.mentioned as somebody who pays for this oil. Do we have any evidence of
:15:58. > :16:01.where this oil is going beyond that which is not sold domestic league?
:16:02. > :16:07.Yesterday, the Russian military rolled out what they said was
:16:08. > :16:12.conclusive satellite evidence of the supply of Isis controlled oil to
:16:13. > :16:17.Turkey. It is part of the ongoing spat between anchor and Moscow. What
:16:18. > :16:22.actually happens in practice is that oil is produced in eastern Syria and
:16:23. > :16:29.sold by Isis to middlemen, smugglers. Then it gets transported
:16:30. > :16:33.across-the-board -- across the border into Turkey and is also sold
:16:34. > :16:36.to the Assad regime. It is hard to find evidence to say the Turkish
:16:37. > :16:40.government bought the oil or the Syrian government did. These are
:16:41. > :16:43.paperless transactions, it is no good trying to hit the banking
:16:44. > :16:46.system because it's not done through that, it is cash in hand through
:16:47. > :16:51.smugglers and middlemen. It's been going on for quite some time. I have
:16:52. > :16:56.to say that the Russians have taken an incredibly proactive role in
:16:57. > :17:00.hitting the vast com boys of oil tankers that are the economic
:17:01. > :17:05.lifeline for Isis. They have really been the first to do this in a big
:17:06. > :17:13.way. The lead is now being followed by the Americans. There is a kind of
:17:14. > :17:17.belated attempt to choke off Isis' revenues from oil. Don't go away
:17:18. > :17:18.because we've got lots more to talk about with you and Crispin Blunt.
:17:19. > :17:21.We're joined now from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus by our correspondent,
:17:22. > :17:36.That is the base where the RAF jets left overnight. It is busy and
:17:37. > :17:38.crowded in the skies in the conflict area in Syria. How difficult is this
:17:39. > :17:46.mission for the British jets and their fighter pilot? Essentially, in
:17:47. > :17:50.terms of the risks because the skies are so crowded, certainly, obviously
:17:51. > :17:55.as far as Britain and the coalition led by the US are concerned, it is
:17:56. > :18:00.absolutely all coordinated with them, through the air operations
:18:01. > :18:03.centre in Qatar. They will be coordinating, deciding which planes
:18:04. > :18:08.are going where, from which country. That is all co-ordinated.
:18:09. > :18:11.To what extent it is coordinated with Russia is another matter but my
:18:12. > :18:16.understanding is there has been an agreement between the US and Russia
:18:17. > :18:21.to prevent any accidents happening. In theory, it should all be
:18:22. > :18:25.co-ordinated to prevent any problems. They have returned safely
:18:26. > :18:30.from the first mission. What is the scope, looking ahead, to the British
:18:31. > :18:35.air offensive? In terms of the number of aircraft, it is about to
:18:36. > :18:39.double. They have eight Tornados based here at the moment but there
:18:40. > :18:46.are another eight on the way. Six typhoons and another two Tornados
:18:47. > :18:51.coming and also a transporter bringing all the ground staff and
:18:52. > :18:56.the crews, etc, over. In terms of capacity, it is about to double. In
:18:57. > :19:01.terms of scope, how often, the targets they are going to hit, is
:19:02. > :19:05.another matter. The targets are more difficult because ice is clearly
:19:06. > :19:09.know they are under attack from multiple air forces from different
:19:10. > :19:13.countries. They can't be as open as they were being above ground. They
:19:14. > :19:18.need to be much more hidden, particularly in Raqqa. There are
:19:19. > :19:22.reports that they are much more mingled into the civilian
:19:23. > :19:26.population. As we saw from Sinjar, which was retaken by the Kurds
:19:27. > :19:32.recently, the Isis militants had been digging tunnels to protect
:19:33. > :19:35.themselves there. The targets are more difficult but there is a
:19:36. > :19:38.significant intelligence gathering operation going on, not fees with
:19:39. > :19:43.the bridges biplane which has been flying over Syria for some time. One
:19:44. > :19:47.of the criticisms here has been that British forces will make little
:19:48. > :19:54.material difference to the offensive already underway in Syria. What is
:19:55. > :19:57.your assessment? I think that probably, any contribution is going
:19:58. > :20:02.to be welcomed, however small. Obviously, it is limited because the
:20:03. > :20:07.RAF as limited resources so it is a limited contribution but it does
:20:08. > :20:10.help. Certainly, the RAF are talking up the technology they have. There's
:20:11. > :20:15.been a lot of talk about the Brimstone missile which is very a
:20:16. > :20:20.it, which poses less risk of civilian casualties. -- very
:20:21. > :20:24.accurate. They say it is fairly unique so they can bring it to the
:20:25. > :20:27.operation. It means with extra crews and aircraft coming in, it takes the
:20:28. > :20:32.strain off some of the other countries. It is a contribution but
:20:33. > :20:38.absolutely, yes, it is limited. But again, the other issue is if bombing
:20:39. > :20:41.really works, whether it will succeed in defeating Isis.
:20:42. > :20:45.Obviously, everyone says it won't, it can impact and weaken them but it
:20:46. > :20:51.won't be defeated until brown forces go into absolutely take them out.
:20:52. > :20:55.Richard Galpin in Cyprus, thank you. Frank Gardner is still with us in
:20:56. > :21:00.Broadcasting House and Crispin Blunt is with us in the studio. Crispin
:21:01. > :21:05.Blunt, let me come to you and pick up the points made from Cyprus on
:21:06. > :21:10.ground forces. The government has made something, some would say much
:21:11. > :21:16.of the 70,000 disparate fighters on the ground that are not part of
:21:17. > :21:23.Islamic State and not part of al-Masirah and other hardline
:21:24. > :21:28.organisations -- al-Nusra. But aren't these the people the Russians
:21:29. > :21:31.are striking? They appear to be. What is happening here is that you
:21:32. > :21:35.have an exercise of the Russians trying to strengthen the regime's
:21:36. > :21:39.position by some of their targeting on Isis but some on these people.
:21:40. > :21:43.You have got the Saudis and other countries who are continuing to
:21:44. > :21:49.provide lethal weaponry, which we are not, to these people, to try to
:21:50. > :21:55.strengthen their position before we get into ceasefire talks. Frankly,
:21:56. > :21:58.this should stop on both sides. We need a ceasefire and we need the
:21:59. > :22:03.transition process to happen so we can get both of these forces after a
:22:04. > :22:08.ceasefire, and with a transitional government then turning their guns
:22:09. > :22:14.on Isil. That is not going to be enough, 70,000, the Syrian army,
:22:15. > :22:18.with 200,000 plus effective, I understand, is not going to be
:22:19. > :22:20.enough. They are going to need significant support from the
:22:21. > :22:25.surrounding Sunni nation in a military said on the ground and very
:22:26. > :22:29.possibly from the rest of the international community as well in
:22:30. > :22:34.order to take on these 20-40,000 fighters in Iraq and Syria, many of
:22:35. > :22:40.whom are determined to fight to the death. But none of that is going to
:22:41. > :22:46.happen very quickly. If it is to happen, doesn't it mean that Britain
:22:47. > :22:49.has two except that for a transition -- has to accept that transition
:22:50. > :22:53.period of indefinitely, President Assad is there and not much on the
:22:54. > :22:58.ground can happen without the Russians being onside? Things are
:22:59. > :23:04.moving. Our language has changed about President Assad. What the
:23:05. > :23:07.Foreign Secretary was saying to the select committee in the summer was a
:23:08. > :23:12.very firm line on Assad and by September, it changed. We are
:23:13. > :23:16.envisaging a role for Assad at the beginning of a transition process.
:23:17. > :23:19.If we and the Americans have dropped the precondition that he must go
:23:20. > :23:23.before talks can be entered into, that is enabling the talks to happen
:23:24. > :23:28.and with a target date of them starting on January the 1st, the
:23:29. > :23:33.Saudis are assembling the opposition spokesmen for these talks now, it
:23:34. > :23:38.seems, in Riyadh. There is a date, the 1st of January, for the talks to
:23:39. > :23:41.commence. The Russians need to deliver the Assad government to the
:23:42. > :23:44.talks because they have got to get out of the position they are in
:23:45. > :23:47.otherwise they will be there in definitely trying to support a
:23:48. > :23:52.regime under assault from well over half its population. Frank Gardner,
:23:53. > :23:57.the politicians on both sides of the debate yesterday, those who were in
:23:58. > :24:00.favour of bombing and those who were against, made much of the Vienna
:24:01. > :24:06.talks, said there was real progress being made that some kind of deal
:24:07. > :24:13.could be done among the disparate anti-Assad forces but also involving
:24:14. > :24:16.Mr Assad and involving the Russians. Are they not really, this diplomatic
:24:17. > :24:23.move, aren't they really still at ground zero? No, if you were to use
:24:24. > :24:28.the analogy of Matt Every, I would say they are at camp one, no longer
:24:29. > :24:32.at base camp. They are not very far up the mountain but slightly ahead
:24:33. > :24:37.of where they started. The big difference, I think, the big
:24:38. > :24:40.positive is, and I never thought I would hear myself say this, is that
:24:41. > :24:45.Russia is involved. When Russia joined in the air strikes on their
:24:46. > :24:48.own agenda at the end of September, a lot of people, huge amount of
:24:49. > :24:51.people, especially in the Middle East said it was a disaster and it
:24:52. > :24:55.would be another Afghanistan, which would mobilise the whole Middle East
:24:56. > :24:59.against them. It has not done that. It is true that a lot of the
:25:00. > :25:01.strikes, in fact the bulk of them have been hitting what most beagle
:25:02. > :25:07.would consider to be the wrong targets. They have been hitting the
:25:08. > :25:11.non-Isis rebels who are the biggest threat, just as Crispin Blunt said,
:25:12. > :25:16.to President Assad. But the fact is, they are at the table and so is
:25:17. > :25:20.Iran. Both of those countries are the ones who can, when they choose,
:25:21. > :25:24.at the right time, make Assad go. The problem here is that if you
:25:25. > :25:30.force President Assad out in a rush, you risk the whole regime
:25:31. > :25:35.collapsing and the next thing will be Isis in the massacres and nobody
:25:36. > :25:39.wants that. The trick is to get -- in Damascus and nobly wants that.
:25:40. > :25:42.The trick is to get enough of the regime to leave so it is except a
:25:43. > :25:45.ball to the rebels who have spent the last four years fighting the
:25:46. > :25:48.Assad regime but not so many that the entire country collapses and you
:25:49. > :25:53.have total and keep throughout what is left of Syria. I would suggest
:25:54. > :26:00.that is quite a mid-Ishant's trick that will be required. It is -- a
:26:01. > :26:03.magician's trick. This diplomatic process has been going on the whole
:26:04. > :26:07.time and has not been very effective so far, not for want of trying.
:26:08. > :26:10.People ask why people aren't talking but they are. Part of the problem is
:26:11. > :26:13.that the people who have been turning up to the smart, fancy
:26:14. > :26:18.hotels in Geneva and elsewhere have not really been representative of
:26:19. > :26:20.the people doing the fighting. The people doing the most effective
:26:21. > :26:29.fighting against President Assad have been the Islamists, who said we
:26:30. > :26:31.do not share the West's vision of a future for Syria. They are not
:26:32. > :26:34.really pluralistic. The people who have spent four years in the
:26:35. > :26:37.trenches, as it were, fighting away, if they are of a Sunni Islamists
:26:38. > :26:40.went, they will not be interested in sharing government and power with
:26:41. > :26:43.Allah whites, who they have been fighting, or Christians for that
:26:44. > :26:48.matter. There is a long-term problem. But the government's view
:26:49. > :26:52.and maybe I will let Crispin Blunt say what that is because I don't
:26:53. > :26:59.want to be accused of being a spokesman for anyone! Quite right.
:27:00. > :27:07.Not that he is, either. Are the allies all in place? We learn that
:27:08. > :27:10.Turkey is keeping the border open for its own reasons, it could be
:27:11. > :27:13.buying Islamic State oil and we have learned recently that both the
:27:14. > :27:21.Saudis and the UAE have moved their fighter planes, their bombers away
:27:22. > :27:27.from action in Syria or Iraq to the Yemen, where they are leading the
:27:28. > :27:33.war themselves. Can we count on them? Hopefully, Yemen, there is a
:27:34. > :27:39.prospect of some kind of settlement there. It has been made much off by
:27:40. > :27:44.the Saudi Foreign Minister for at least a month but they are still not
:27:45. > :27:48.there yet. There is a hope that there would be the forces of the
:27:49. > :27:51.Emirates and Saudi Arabia are available to redeploy. There's no
:27:52. > :27:58.shortage of aircraft which is the issue in the Syrian theatre. To use
:27:59. > :28:01.Frank's analogy of base one, at least we are there and you can see a
:28:02. > :28:05.route to the summit which you could not see before. There were always
:28:06. > :28:08.barriers in the way, conflicting national interests which would
:28:09. > :28:12.always prevent the international community getting there. Now those
:28:13. > :28:16.have been cleared out of the way. You can see in the detail in Vienna
:28:17. > :28:20.Wyatt is going to work. Jordan, for example, is identifying which of the
:28:21. > :28:23.Islamic groups are so beyond the pale that they will never be part of
:28:24. > :28:29.a transitional governor at because they reject the whole concept. In
:28:30. > :28:36.addition to Isil and al-Nusra. The process is in place and it is in all
:28:37. > :28:39.the nations' interests to defeat Isil, bring the civil war to an end.
:28:40. > :28:44.You have the unity of interest which I believe is means that finally the
:28:45. > :28:48.international community might get its collective act together, and can
:28:49. > :28:51.see a way to sorting this. Frank Gardner has gone to do another
:28:52. > :28:55.interview because he is a man much in demand for obvious reasons,
:28:56. > :29:00.because he is across the street like no one else. One other question for
:29:01. > :29:05.you, meanwhile, the British role in the bombing raids continues. Do you
:29:06. > :29:09.by the government's emphasis on how the Brimstone missile is so superior
:29:10. > :29:15.to anything else that anyone else has? Well, it is a marginal
:29:16. > :29:19.additional capability to the whole effort of the coalition. If you need
:29:20. > :29:23.to take out a target with a low lethality warhead, so there is
:29:24. > :29:30.rather less collateral damage than other weapons would create, with a
:29:31. > :29:36.high precision capability, Brimstone is your weapon. But it's marginal?
:29:37. > :29:38.If you have France, Russian and US air forces queued up over Syria and
:29:39. > :29:45.the target appears, the likelihood of them saying, "stop! Wait for the
:29:46. > :29:49.Royal air force to get loaded up and fly over and do this because they
:29:50. > :29:52.have exactly the right weapon buzzword, you probably want to
:29:53. > :29:55.engage the target that is a beard but if you can plan these things and
:29:56. > :30:00.you have the time to do all the planning, to get it right, then it
:30:01. > :30:06.is a good bit of extra. How many of these missiles do we have? I don't
:30:07. > :30:09.know but they are not as expensive as some. The Saudis are the only
:30:10. > :30:14.other country that have bought this missile. Have they been using them?
:30:15. > :30:19.Apparently they are using them in the Yemen. Not in Iraq or Syria?
:30:20. > :30:24.They have the capacity to use them over Syria but for them, the Yemen
:30:25. > :30:29.is their current preoccupation. So is the claim fewer civilian deaths,
:30:30. > :30:33.is that the idea? That is one of the benefits, one of the claims being
:30:34. > :30:36.made for this missile. But the one thing we do know is that there have
:30:37. > :30:41.been many civilian deaths in the Yemen but we need to leave it there.
:30:42. > :30:44.So Her Majesty's Armed Forces are now at war with Isis militants
:30:45. > :30:47.in Syria, but another war has been raging in the run-up to the vote
:30:48. > :30:49.and that's the one inside Her Majesty's Official Opposition.
:30:50. > :30:52.Labour MPs who backed airstrikes came under pressure on social
:30:53. > :30:58.And some were sent graphic images, which included dead children.
:30:59. > :31:01.They have also been threatened with deselection.
:31:02. > :31:06.That means they would no longer be the Labour Party candidate in their
:31:07. > :31:12.And anti-war demonstrators protested outside the home of Stella Creasy,
:31:13. > :31:14.the Labour MP for Walthamstow in North London.
:31:15. > :31:16.And on Twitter this morning, left-wingers are calling
:31:17. > :31:20.on the 66 Labour MPs who backed military action to be deselected.
:31:21. > :31:23.We're joined now by Nancy Taffe, a member of Waltham Forest for Corbyn,
:31:24. > :31:34.who is active in Stella Creasy's constituency.
:31:35. > :31:42.You would like to see Stella Creasy deselected, is that right? Yes, I
:31:43. > :31:47.would. I am active in Waltham Forest for according. One of the things we
:31:48. > :31:50.are arguing for, Stella has called a meeting this weekend in her
:31:51. > :31:56.constituency, and we will be putting a motion to that meeting calling for
:31:57. > :32:02.her resignation, for a vote of no-confidence because of her role in
:32:03. > :32:05.voting for this war. We believe that the majority of residents in Waltham
:32:06. > :32:11.Forest are opposed to her actions. And it is an absolute disgrace that
:32:12. > :32:14.she called a meeting before this vote where the constituents were
:32:15. > :32:20.urged to turn up and express their opinions. They did so. She took a
:32:21. > :32:25.photograph. She tweeted it and said the majority of people at the
:32:26. > :32:30.meeting did not support air strikes on Syria, and yet she went ahead and
:32:31. > :32:33.voted for them. Are you working with the Labour Party locally on this
:32:34. > :32:40.attempt to have heard deselected? You say she is holding this meeting
:32:41. > :32:44.on Sunday. I cannot speak for the Labour Party in Walthamstow. I'm a
:32:45. > :32:50.member of the Socialist party. But within the community in
:32:51. > :32:53.Walthamstow, among activist inside and outside the Labour Party, there
:32:54. > :32:59.has been a huge swell of sentiment against this war, which was
:33:00. > :33:05.expressed in a local demonstration outside a local mosque. Of lies are
:33:06. > :33:10.being told about that demonstration. It was families with candles and jam
:33:11. > :33:15.jars. We marched from the local mosque to the Labour Party offices
:33:16. > :33:22.and one of the chance was, what do we want? Peace. When do we want it?
:33:23. > :33:26.Now. What evidence you have that those people who are against air
:33:27. > :33:31.strikes want to get rid of Stella Creasy as their MP? You just have to
:33:32. > :33:36.look at what is happening on social media amongst many people who said
:33:37. > :33:40.they voted for Stella Creasy, people who said they went out and campaign
:33:41. > :33:46.for Stella Creasy. I stood against Stella Creasy as a socialist. But
:33:47. > :33:51.there are people who genuinely believed that Stella Creasy was
:33:52. > :33:55.anti-war because she always said she was anti-war. Genuinely believed
:33:56. > :34:02.that she stood as a socialist. And on that one issue, very important
:34:03. > :34:07.issue, you think all of those people would now like to see her
:34:08. > :34:12.deselected? What we are saying is, we will be putting this motion to
:34:13. > :34:15.the public meeting. We will take this motion throughout the
:34:16. > :34:19.constituency of Walthamstow and we urge other Labour Party members in
:34:20. > :34:24.ward to take this motion or similar motions to demand mandatory
:34:25. > :34:32.reselection. They called a conference to change the rules. You
:34:33. > :34:36.could easily have a conference to make mandatory reselection in the
:34:37. > :34:40.heart of the new Labour project, the Corbyn project if you like, and make
:34:41. > :34:44.this a Democratic party to readmit people like myself back into the
:34:45. > :34:48.Labour Party so we have a genuine anti-austerity and anti-war party.
:34:49. > :34:59.I'm going to welcome viewers in Scotland. In the studio is Labour MP
:35:00. > :35:03.John Mann and Shelley Asquith from the pro-Corbin pressure group,
:35:04. > :35:08.momentum. Does Nancy Taaffe have the right to try to use the democratic
:35:09. > :35:14.process is available to her to try to deselect the Labour MP, Stella
:35:15. > :35:17.Creasy? She stood against the Labour Party. She got a pitiful vote. And
:35:18. > :35:23.she is part of the militant tendency. We don't want them in the
:35:24. > :35:30.Labour Party. They are nothing to do with the Labour Party. Her language
:35:31. > :35:34.shows the obscure nature of these Trotskyites, who talk to themselves
:35:35. > :35:40.all the time but claimed to talk on behalf of the people. Nancy Taaffe,
:35:41. > :35:44.what do you say to that? I wish that John Mann would engage in political
:35:45. > :35:49.debate rather than slurs. It would be easy for me to say he is a member
:35:50. > :35:57.of the millionaire tendency, he represents a past, a romp that
:35:58. > :36:01.existed around Tony Blair. And the Corbyn supporters represent the
:36:02. > :36:04.future. What is happening inside Walthamstow Labour Party in the
:36:05. > :36:10.general community is a warning to people like John Mann, who are
:36:11. > :36:13.sitting comfortable on their nice MP salaries, who march into the
:36:14. > :36:16.chamber, vote for war and then accuse all of those good anti-war
:36:17. > :36:22.activist outside of being irrelevant. We will come back to
:36:23. > :36:28.John Mann, who did not actually vote for air strikes. That shows it is
:36:29. > :36:32.nonsense. She cannot even work out who voted what. What they are doing
:36:33. > :36:40.to Stella Creasy is outrageous. Bully boy tactics. We had them from
:36:41. > :36:45.the militant tendency before with Peter Taff, I don't know if he is a
:36:46. > :36:50.relative. He was a nasty person. I saw their bully boy tactics, trying
:36:51. > :36:55.to abuse people, break-up meetings. We had that in the late 1970s. The
:36:56. > :36:59.militants were in the middle of it. If that comes back into the Labour
:37:00. > :37:04.Party, the Labour Party is dead and buried as a credible force.
:37:05. > :37:09.Can I come back on that? That is an insult to all good socialist in the
:37:10. > :37:13.Labour Party who fought Blair. Do not forget, the legacy of Blair has
:37:14. > :37:17.been played out in the politics of John Mann. These are the people who
:37:18. > :37:21.hijacked the Labour Party. He can make all of the personal slurs he
:37:22. > :37:28.wants, but he represents the old Blairite right. We need to get rid
:37:29. > :37:33.of MPs like him. Nancy Taaffe is appealing to Labour
:37:34. > :37:37.Party members, perhaps like you. Is that what you want to see in the
:37:38. > :37:42.Labour Party? This sort of squabbling, which is quite brutal.
:37:43. > :37:49.Of course not, we what we want to see healthy debate. Abuse thrown at
:37:50. > :37:53.anyone on either side is totally unacceptable and cannot be
:37:54. > :37:57.tolerated. It should be investigated by the NEC. But that is a small
:37:58. > :38:03.minority of people who have been vocal about Labour not supporting
:38:04. > :38:07.the war. There are a lot of people who have been protesting peacefully
:38:08. > :38:12.and holding people to account. You say the abuse should stop and it is
:38:13. > :38:16.not acceptable, it should be investigated by the NEC if there are
:38:17. > :38:20.concrete examples. Wets look at some of the tactics used and deployed.
:38:21. > :38:25.John Mann has said some of it is disgraceful. Tweeting MPs with
:38:26. > :38:31.pictures of dead children, is that acceptable? I'm not going to sit
:38:32. > :38:36.here and say what is acceptable and what is not. If it is illegal abuse
:38:37. > :38:39.it should be reported. I think that things like marching outside a
:38:40. > :38:44.constituency office, as somebody who has worked in a constituency office,
:38:45. > :38:48.I think that is legitimate. But it is about how that is conducted. This
:38:49. > :38:55.is an issue that gets people very emotive and people will want to hold
:38:56. > :39:00.their MPs to account. There is a difference, isn't there, between
:39:01. > :39:04.tweeting examples of dead women and children for people who voted for
:39:05. > :39:08.air strikes, and people legitimately pro-testing outside the homes and
:39:09. > :39:15.offices of MPs? What is wrong with that? It is a coordinated attempt to
:39:16. > :39:19.bully people. I was still getting abuse this week. I will not use the
:39:20. > :39:26.language because it is highly inappropriate. There is not a word I
:39:27. > :39:30.have not been called. That is just in the last week. As it happens I
:39:31. > :39:34.totally disagreed with David Cameron. I was part of creating the
:39:35. > :39:41.amendment that was put forward by Graham Allen and others. But
:39:42. > :39:48.nevertheless, I still got the abuse. What has been done to Stella
:39:49. > :39:52.Creasy, this isn't socialist democratic progressive politics.
:39:53. > :39:56.This is the mob. I think what Jeremy Corbyn needs to do is to remove
:39:57. > :40:02.these people from the Labour Party. We don't want them, we don't need
:40:03. > :40:05.them. If momentum agreed with that, they could join in. I have noticed
:40:06. > :40:14.what they have been saying in Nottingham, rather and Lincolnshire
:40:15. > :40:19.to me. It is unacceptable. You part of the bully boy tactics? Of course
:40:20. > :40:24.not. I am not involved in bullying anybody. I e-mailed my MP like lots
:40:25. > :40:30.of different people. They are not all doing that, are they? There is
:40:31. > :40:34.an echo chamber as well. Of course it is unacceptable but most people
:40:35. > :40:39.just want answers, just want to hold their MPs to account. Should MPs do
:40:40. > :40:42.with their local parties tell them to do or use their own judgment? If
:40:43. > :40:50.they were elected, like Stella Creasy, with more than 28,000 volts
:40:51. > :40:54.compared to Nancy, who got 394, but Nancy said she made a mistake,
:40:55. > :40:58.Stella Creasy, involving for air strikes. Should MPs do whatever
:40:59. > :41:03.their local parties tell them to do? No, I think they need to listen to
:41:04. > :41:08.the wider constituency. She has got a mandate. You have to balance what
:41:09. > :41:14.you think is right and what your constituents are telling you. She
:41:15. > :41:18.came to her own decision in the end. You have to have the balance and you
:41:19. > :41:23.have to listen to the electorate. Would you like to see people like
:41:24. > :41:25.her deselected if they do not reflect the view of the majority of
:41:26. > :41:31.Labour Party members in constituencies? No, I don't think
:41:32. > :41:37.that is the answer. John and Jeremy have said there will not beady
:41:38. > :41:41.selections. I don't see that happening. But there does need to be
:41:42. > :41:44.some level of accountability. I think that is what we are going to
:41:45. > :41:49.see from the membership and from the wider electorate. Nancy Taaffe says
:41:50. > :41:57.she would like to come back into the Labour Party. Would you like to see
:41:58. > :42:04.that happen? The Socialist Party is a rival party. A party against us.
:42:05. > :42:09.Currently that is obviously not the way it runs. If she was to come back
:42:10. > :42:14.would you welcome her? It comes under certain rules and regulations,
:42:15. > :42:20.I suppose. I don't know. But you do agree with her on her views on the
:42:21. > :42:31.war? We definitely agree on air strikes in Syria. Nancy, sorry.
:42:32. > :42:34.Firstly, Stella Creasy is a member of the co-operative party and the
:42:35. > :42:38.Labour Party. She has a dual membership. The Labour Party was
:42:39. > :42:41.born out of a federal structure. There is no reason why I cannot be a
:42:42. > :42:46.member of the Socialist Party and the Labour Party under a federal
:42:47. > :42:51.structure. We have heard of John Mann talking about expulsions and
:42:52. > :42:57.suspensions. There is no more a bullying tactic than that. We oppose
:42:58. > :42:59.all personal slurs, all bullying tactics, but we are struggling for a
:43:00. > :43:04.democratic accountability within the Labour Party. Corbyn himself has
:43:05. > :43:09.said we have to wait three years. If Stella calls a meeting and absorbs
:43:10. > :43:13.all of the anger and thinks nobody can touch her, nobody can deselect,
:43:14. > :43:21.she will betray the members in Walthamstow.
:43:22. > :43:23.So now we're bombing them in Iraq and Syria.
:43:24. > :43:30.During yesterday's debate David Cameron said that henceforth
:43:31. > :43:37.But the BBC came under fire from one MP for the terminology it uses.
:43:38. > :43:42.Can I thank you for that change in terminology and all members of
:43:43. > :43:46.Parliament across the House for their support in this. Would the
:43:47. > :43:51.Prime Minister join me in urging the BBC to review their bizarre policy?
:43:52. > :43:54.They wrote to me to say they could not use the word Daesh because it
:43:55. > :43:59.would breach their impartiality rules. We are at war with
:44:00. > :44:04.terrorists. We have to defeat their ideology. We have to be united. Will
:44:05. > :44:10.he join me in urging the BBC to review that bizarre policy?
:44:11. > :44:15.I agree with my honourable friend. I have already corresponded with the
:44:16. > :44:21.BBC about their use of IS, Islamic State, which I think is even worse,
:44:22. > :44:25.frankly, than either saying so-called IS or indeed Isil. But
:44:26. > :44:27.Daesh is clearly an improvement and I think it is important that we all
:44:28. > :44:29.try to use this language. Rehman Chishti joins us now,
:44:30. > :44:32.along with Shashank Joshi, Senior Research Fellow at the
:44:33. > :44:42.Royal United Services Institute. Welcome to you both. You are a
:44:43. > :44:47.politician. What has it got to do with you what the BBC says? We are
:44:48. > :44:51.not a state broadcaster. It has nothing to do with you. What it has
:44:52. > :44:55.to do with me is like everyone else, the first duty of the state is to
:44:56. > :45:00.detect its citizens there when I see a report by a military expert who
:45:01. > :45:04.says Miniter reaction can to grade, contain and control Daesh but you
:45:05. > :45:08.have to defeat the entity, the idea. For me, when you see the BBC using
:45:09. > :45:13.the word Islamic State, this terrorist organisation has
:45:14. > :45:18.deliberately chosen to call itself Isil, Isis, Islamic State, to give
:45:19. > :45:22.it the legitimacy and the appeal which is sucking in thousands of
:45:23. > :45:26.people from around the world to its poise and ideology, including 800
:45:27. > :45:29.from here in the UK, then on that basis, I think we have a more
:45:30. > :45:34.responsibility to defeat them in their entirety by using force but
:45:35. > :45:37.also defeating the ideology and appeal. If we call them what you
:45:38. > :45:42.want, they are going to lose but your muck that's it? They will lose
:45:43. > :45:47.in relation to recruiting people to their poisoned ideology. Why? Orange
:45:48. > :45:51.maggot let me give you an MOD reference, Isil's strength is based
:45:52. > :45:56.in large part on the success of its brand image which is due to the
:45:57. > :45:59.group's ongoing appeal and recruitment efforts. Yes, you can
:46:00. > :46:03.destroy an entity but when you get the poisoned ideology, sucking
:46:04. > :46:12.people in from the UK, we have a duty to ensure we use the right
:46:13. > :46:14.terminology, not to let anyone get sucked into this poisonous ideology.
:46:15. > :46:17.There's a bomb and we have two address it. Is there a problem? It's
:46:18. > :46:22.very when tensioned but Daesh means Islamic State, it's the same thing.
:46:23. > :46:25.It doesn't. It in Arabic acronym that means Islamic State. You are
:46:26. > :46:30.telling us what we should do but you can't agree with what it means? I
:46:31. > :46:36.recognise some in the region feel it has pejorative connotations because
:46:37. > :46:43.it is an acronym and it sounds a bit silly. You don't get to dominate the
:46:44. > :46:55.conversation. You finish your point and I will come back for you. What
:46:56. > :46:59.does the D stand for? State. It is DA I S H. The way we spell it and
:47:00. > :47:03.the way the French cosmic spells it is D8 E S H of someone who so is
:47:04. > :47:13.discord and is a bigot. That is why we should refer to them in that way
:47:14. > :47:17.and you used the word Daesh in your article before. I comply with the
:47:18. > :47:20.house styles of the publications are right. I don't have a problem with
:47:21. > :47:24.using it, I don't think it is offensive and I agree many people
:47:25. > :47:28.feel has some satirical value and that is a good thing. But overall,
:47:29. > :47:33.the amount of time we devote to this absurd issue in every parliamentary
:47:34. > :47:36.debate I watch on this subject makes me despair. That is five minutes we
:47:37. > :47:43.could be debating issues of ground forces or strategy. Its displacement
:47:44. > :47:46.tactic like a politician because someone like you commie Hajrovic fun
:47:47. > :47:48.with this and you've made a bit of a name for yourself with this and that
:47:49. > :47:51.is how parliamentarians were, they can talk about it and the SNP talks
:47:52. > :47:59.about this a lot rather than talking about the issue. View have been
:48:00. > :48:03.talking about the issue as well? I have... You have a clear view of the
:48:04. > :48:08.issue? You voted for bombing? Can I say that when as individuals who
:48:09. > :48:14.deliberately used the name is lamb, it is my faith, link to a terrorist
:48:15. > :48:16.or -- Islam, my faith, link to a terrorist organisation, who have
:48:17. > :48:20.chosen to call themselves is a mistake to get legitimacy and appeal
:48:21. > :48:23.and when you see Islamophobia increasing by over 300% in this
:48:24. > :48:26.country by deliberately linking, inadvertently, a terrorist
:48:27. > :48:33.organisation with Islam, we have a duty to ensure we use the right
:48:34. > :48:37.terminology. I don't think that British has been diminished by using
:48:38. > :48:42.it with British National Party. Or Hezbollah, we don't imply it is
:48:43. > :48:45.divinely faction because it means Army of God. We use the names
:48:46. > :48:49.organisations big which does not legitimise or science in them. That
:48:50. > :48:53.is not correct because we use the word Boko Haram, a terrorist
:48:54. > :48:56.organisation in Nigeria who don't call themselves that. They call
:48:57. > :49:01.themselves the preachers of the Prophet's message but local people
:49:02. > :49:05.said, "we don't want to link our faith to this organisation" and the
:49:06. > :49:11.BBC uses Boko Haram. If they can use that as a pejorative, they can use
:49:12. > :49:13.Daesh. Is going to make a blind bit of difference to some kid in
:49:14. > :49:19.Bradford who is thinking of going to join Islamic State? Let me put it
:49:20. > :49:22.this way, two years ago, I spoke to Peter Neumann, one of the world's
:49:23. > :49:25.leading experts on counter radicalisation and extremism and he
:49:26. > :49:31.said what I say in relation to addressing this poisonous ideology,
:49:32. > :49:34.that using the right words makes a difference. When you have people in
:49:35. > :49:37.the country who are disillusioned and disturbed and some are clearly
:49:38. > :49:40.dangerous and therefore they get sucked in and if we can use a word
:49:41. > :49:43.which will help us, it won't help us completely but help us address
:49:44. > :49:45.people being sucked into this poisonous ideology, I think we have
:49:46. > :49:51.a duty to use that term. Are you poisonous ideology, I think we have
:49:52. > :49:54.aware, if your expert has ever met a kid from Bradford? The professor I
:49:55. > :49:59.reported about is the one who has been looking at the terrorists in
:50:00. > :50:02.Syria and his organisation at Kings College London is looking at the
:50:03. > :50:05.Internet they are using and their backgrounds. He's a world expert and
:50:06. > :50:10.he understood the point I've made. Maybe you should get him on? Maybe
:50:11. > :50:13.we will. The hard truth is that the people we are talking about our
:50:14. > :50:17.Islamic, people may not like their version of it but it is an Islamic
:50:18. > :50:23.and they do things in the name of that religion and it is a state, at
:50:24. > :50:27.least a proto- state. It levies commissions on trucks passing
:50:28. > :50:32.through its land, it taxes the people who are in it and it provides
:50:33. > :50:36.services. It is a proposed eight. I think we can recognise some of what
:50:37. > :50:40.they do has elements of statehood, taxation, public services, a very
:50:41. > :50:43.well structured machine which is in part inherited from Saddam
:50:44. > :50:47.Hussein's intelligence organisation. In no way does that mean we can
:50:48. > :50:53.accept it as a state in the long run. But the point is really, North
:50:54. > :50:58.Korea is the DPRK, the Democratic people's Republic of Korea. So what
:50:59. > :51:03.the East German republic! Are any of us seriously taken in by these
:51:04. > :51:13.absurd naming conventions? The Germans were Nazis so we used a
:51:14. > :51:15.pejorative term. That may have been offensive to national socialist. Our
:51:16. > :51:16.discussions on word! The BBC didn't want to put anyone up
:51:17. > :51:20.for an interview this afternoon "The BBC uses the name the group
:51:21. > :51:24.itself uses, using additional descriptions to help make it clear
:51:25. > :51:27.we are referring to the group as they refer to themselves,
:51:28. > :51:29.such as 'so-called Islamic State' We also note newspapers refer to the
:51:30. > :51:43.group as Islamic State or Isil." That's cleared that up. While we
:51:44. > :51:47.have been on air, Justice Secretary Michael Gove has confirmed the
:51:48. > :51:50.criminal courts charge will be abolished from December the 24th,
:51:51. > :51:55.saying that while the intention behind the policy was honourable, in
:51:56. > :51:58.reality, the intent has fallen short. Our legal correspondent Clive
:51:59. > :52:04.Coleman has been across this story and can tell is more. What is
:52:05. > :52:08.happening? Let me tell you why the child was so highly, perhaps
:52:09. > :52:11.universally unpopular and with just about everyone working within the
:52:12. > :52:15.criminal justice system. It was introduced in April and it is
:52:16. > :52:18.mandatory, it has to be imposed. It is not means tested and it is
:52:19. > :52:23.imposed on top of everything else, so in top of -- double fine,
:52:24. > :52:29.compensation, prosecution costs order and the victim surcharge. And
:52:30. > :52:31.it is hefty, starting at ?150 for someone who pleads guilty in a
:52:32. > :52:35.Magistrates' Court, rising to ?1200 for some of who is found guilty
:52:36. > :52:42.following a trial in the Crown Court. That has led to widespread
:52:43. > :52:45.opposition, so far, at least 50 magistrates have resigned, just the
:52:46. > :52:50.other week, we had a powerful report from the Justice committee that
:52:51. > :52:54.found that the charge is unjust and grossly disproportionate to people's
:52:55. > :52:58.ability to pay and critically, and this is based on a lot of anecdotal
:52:59. > :53:00.evidence, it creates perverse incentives for people to plead
:53:01. > :53:05.guilty, effectively making a commercial decision to avoid the
:53:06. > :53:12.higher criminal courts charge. Today, Michael Gove has bowed to the
:53:13. > :53:15.pressure and has told initially the magistrates Association and just
:53:16. > :53:20.recently to Parliament that the charge will be scrapped from the
:53:21. > :53:24.24th of December. Is this Michael Gove's tax credits climb-down
:53:25. > :53:28.equivalent? I don't think we can say that because Chris Grayling brought
:53:29. > :53:33.this in, not Michael Gove. But I can't remember the imposition of a
:53:34. > :53:39.financial penalty which has been so universally opposed. We are talking
:53:40. > :53:42.about magistrates, the senior judiciary, lawyers, nobody has
:53:43. > :53:47.really spoken up in favour of the charge. It was designed to partly
:53:48. > :53:50.paid for the costs of the criminal courts. Interestingly, Michael Gove
:53:51. > :53:55.has said this whole morass of fines and charges and penalties is very
:53:56. > :54:01.complex and he has ordered a review into all of that. He has not
:54:02. > :54:07.reversed the idea that guilty Biba will pay something their court
:54:08. > :54:10.costs. Lots of real-life drama in Westminster in the last few days but
:54:11. > :54:10.our guest of the day has used his knowledge
:54:11. > :54:15.our guest of the day has used his basis of a work of fiction. His
:54:16. > :54:23.novel, The Speaker's Wife, its book shelf this month.
:54:24. > :54:26.And we're also joined by former BBC political reporter Terry Stiastny,
:54:27. > :54:28.whose Westminster based novel, Acts of Omission,
:54:29. > :54:34.Westminster is full of intrigue, power and relationships but we work
:54:35. > :54:39.in this bubble, as it is sometimes called. What makes you think it has
:54:40. > :54:43.broader appeal? I think in Parliament at least, it is
:54:44. > :54:49.tremendous theatre. You have vanity sometimes in Parliament. You have
:54:50. > :54:54.been out and verbal violence, all the Vs. You have a tremendous Kofler
:54:55. > :54:58.new voices and all of these people wriggling up the greasy pole. It is
:54:59. > :55:01.tremendously jolly as a place to watch even if some other things they
:55:02. > :55:08.are talking about are so jolly witches what makes it gripping. Is
:55:09. > :55:11.that what it is? All novels need conflict of some sort and as we've
:55:12. > :55:15.seen in the last two days, you have every kind of conflict, between
:55:16. > :55:20.individuals, parties, conflicts of ideas and within families. It is
:55:21. > :55:25.great, a big called on. A lot of the best novels are set in closed
:55:26. > :55:28.worlds, whether it is the world of espionage, or in all sorts of
:55:29. > :55:32.interesting, different places where people are thrown together in that
:55:33. > :55:36.environment. You have to make it interesting make people understand
:55:37. > :55:40.why are real characters with flaws and good qualities as well. So you
:55:41. > :55:47.can make the sort of parochial, some might think, politics appeal to a
:55:48. > :55:49.more global audience like that? Absolutely, you read a murder
:55:50. > :55:53.mystery set in a big country house and you don't necessarily have to
:55:54. > :55:56.have been to one, and you can read about Tudor history and will fall
:55:57. > :56:01.and find it fascinating. It is about finding out what the world is like.
:56:02. > :56:09.Fiction gives you a bit of covering fire, too. What are you saying? My
:56:10. > :56:13.book is plainly a work of fiction, The Speaker's Wife! It is not about
:56:14. > :56:19.Sally Burgo. I did wonder when I first heard about it! You can convey
:56:20. > :56:24.troops about politics without being factual. Is it overused? Or
:56:25. > :56:28.underused as a setting, Westminster? Absolutely, you could
:56:29. > :56:32.have so many more stories. I think it's brilliant but you have to
:56:33. > :56:35.relate it to the wider world, explain why it matters and why it's
:56:36. > :56:39.not just about little people fighting each other, Wyatt matters
:56:40. > :56:43.to the world at large. It was used more, Anthony Trollope used
:56:44. > :56:47.Parliament a lot and in the 1950s we had a lot of Parliamentary novels.
:56:48. > :56:51.We've had Michael Dods but since then, not quite so much. Although
:56:52. > :56:55.Andrew Marr might have done one or two! The setting for yours is the
:56:56. > :56:58.loss of a computer disk containing the names of British informants to
:56:59. > :57:02.the Stasi which brought up issues of transparency and privacy in the
:57:03. > :57:06.background is obviously Westminster. Were you thinking of a particular
:57:07. > :57:10.audience or just writing something because of your background knowledge
:57:11. > :57:14.as a political correspondent? I was just writing a story I found
:57:15. > :57:18.fascinating, where I said to myself, what if this happened? It has a
:57:19. > :57:22.kernel of truth in something that happened but I took it further. What
:57:23. > :57:26.I also did was relating it to Berlin and the conflicts you had then in
:57:27. > :57:29.the Cold War, trying to make it not just about Westminster, where
:57:30. > :57:33.sometimes the stakes can feel small, but bigger ideas about the world
:57:34. > :57:37.around us. Your title could draw people in even under full
:57:38. > :57:41.presenters, The Speaker's Wife! There is one of them in my book but
:57:42. > :57:45.you won't find Sally Burgo. You will find a speaker who is a pernicious
:57:46. > :57:52.little hobgoblin but that again must be in tidy fictional! Entirely!
:57:53. > :57:58.I thought you regarded as documentary. I don't know why you
:57:59. > :58:04.think that. I read your column. The character of John Bercow is straight
:58:05. > :58:09.out of fiction in some ways. Not in the book! And my libel lawyers asked
:58:10. > :58:14.me today that. What about Chris Mullin's fictitious very British
:58:15. > :58:21.coup? Is that becoming a reality? You could argue he predicted Jeremy
:58:22. > :58:25.Corbyn's rise in fiction. A lot of the things have happened, discs
:58:26. > :58:29.going missing, secret going missing. The thing with my book, Acts Of
:58:30. > :58:33.Omission is that some of the people are trying to do good but they are
:58:34. > :58:37.terribly flawed. It is not a conspiracy but it is people messing
:58:38. > :58:41.up, who are out of their depth and struggling. Have you read each
:58:42. > :58:43.other's books? Not yet. You had better get going.
:58:44. > :58:47.The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:48. > :58:51.I'll be back tonight on BBC One at 11.35 for a special episode of
:58:52. > :58:57.This Week, with the latest from the Oldham West and Royton by-election.
:58:58. > :59:03.That coverage will continue through the night. Labour is battling it out
:59:04. > :59:04.with Ukip. I'll be joined by Michael Portillo,
:59:05. > :59:07.Alan Johnson, Emily Maitlis and Marin Alsop, the first woman to
:59:08. > :59:14.conduct the Last Night of the Proms. If you want to see all the
:59:15. > :59:15.candidates in the by-election, they are on the BBC website. Hope you can
:59:16. > :59:25.join us. It's a weeknight, Roger.
:59:26. > :59:26.I won't ask again. You think some loveless coupling
:59:27. > :59:29.is going to solve all our problems? It's a weeknight, Roger.
:59:30. > :59:31.I won't ask again. We just don't know who
:59:32. > :59:34.the bad guys are any more.