:00:36. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.David Cameron will deliver a four year ban on in-work
:00:43. > :00:53.Has the PM's EU renegotiation descended into pantomime?
:00:54. > :00:55.Former Guantanamo detainee Shaker Aamer alleges
:00:56. > :00:58.that he was beaten in the presence of British Security officials,
:00:59. > :01:01.but what was the evidence against him?
:01:02. > :01:03.And we get exclusive access to Margaret Thatcher's wardrobe
:01:04. > :01:20.Bling is the last word I would describe Mrs Thatcher as.
:01:21. > :01:25.And with us for the first half of the programme today
:01:26. > :01:28.is the Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan.
:01:29. > :01:36.Over the weekend the summit in Paris finally decided on an historic
:01:37. > :01:41.climate deal aimed at driving greenhouse gas emissions down
:01:42. > :01:44.and limiting global warming to "well below" 2C and possibly just 1.5C.
:01:45. > :01:50.If fulfilled, it would see 195 signatory countries weaning
:01:51. > :01:52.themselves off fossil fuels completely within just a few decades
:01:53. > :01:55.and switching to a mix of nuclear power and renewables.
:01:56. > :01:58.But some estimates put the cost of meeting these commitments at $1
:01:59. > :02:17.I think this is a huge step forward from the previous approach, which
:02:18. > :02:20.was to have global technocracy trying to enforce everything on
:02:21. > :02:24.member states. What they have done is got the individual nations to
:02:25. > :02:29.agree to want to do something, answerable to their electorate, not
:02:30. > :02:33.some global police, a better way to carry people to where you want to
:02:34. > :02:41.go. Is it achievable? To keep global warming below two Celsius, is it
:02:42. > :02:47.achievable? We don't know. It is a step in the right direction. A broad
:02:48. > :02:51.goal is good. The way they go about it, to say maybe things that would
:02:52. > :02:58.be expensive to do today but would be cheaper as the tech -- technology
:02:59. > :03:03.comes on stream, that is a sensible and practical approach.
:03:04. > :03:07.comes on stream, that is a sensible have said if we look at
:03:08. > :03:08.comes on stream, that is a sensible carbon reduction target, we could
:03:09. > :03:15.not have carbon reduction target, we could
:03:16. > :03:31.stations left? The UK was one of the few countries already meeting the
:03:32. > :03:32.coyotes -- Koyoto criteria. The issues are coming largely from
:03:33. > :03:35.developing countries and any issues are coming largely from
:03:36. > :03:38.that only involves Britain or Europe will miss the point because the
:03:39. > :03:44.emissions are coming from will miss the point because the
:03:45. > :03:47.industrialising countries. They will miss the point because the
:03:48. > :03:51.would need to make deeper cuts, though. They understandably have
:03:52. > :03:53.other priorities such as lifting hundreds of millions of people out
:03:54. > :03:56.of grinding poverty, which was why hundreds of millions of people out
:03:57. > :03:57.the deal was done to allow them, the basket of fractionally reducing
:03:58. > :04:06.climate change, to use the basket of fractionally reducing
:04:07. > :04:09.try to lift people to what we would the basket of fractionally reducing
:04:10. > :04:14.regard as a bare minimum of decent living and you do that through
:04:15. > :04:16.cheaper energy. Until people have electricity, running water,
:04:17. > :04:20.understandably, politicians in those electricity, running water,
:04:21. > :04:25.countries will say they have more immediate priorities. Unless they do
:04:26. > :04:31.enact changes, parts of the world will be less habitable and possibly
:04:32. > :04:32.lead to further waves of migration. People have this almost aggressive
:04:33. > :04:37.moral certainty about People have this almost aggressive
:04:38. > :04:41.not like the idea of weighing up priorities. They do not like
:04:42. > :04:47.allocating resources judiciously. When you look at the problems
:04:48. > :04:48.developing countries struggle with, elimination of disease, basic
:04:49. > :04:52.education for girls, you elimination of disease, basic
:04:53. > :04:56.understand there are more pressing things than just the issue of
:04:57. > :04:58.climate change. It is time for the quiz.
:04:59. > :05:01.Council employees in Bradford have been told they will not longer be
:05:02. > :05:02.allowed to make what on council premises?
:05:03. > :05:16.Later we'll give you the correct answer.
:05:17. > :05:23.David Cameron goes to Brussels later this week to meet other EU leaders.
:05:24. > :05:28.A crucial meeting as the Prime Minister tries to secure a new deal
:05:29. > :05:30.for the UK ahead of the referendum on the EU membership. What is he
:05:31. > :05:40.after? -- what is he after. years has been seen as the real
:05:41. > :05:45.demand of substance in the Prime Minister's
:05:46. > :05:47.renegotiation strategy - and a Conservative
:05:48. > :05:48.manifesto promise. But it was also a major sticking
:05:49. > :05:52.point for the rest of the EU. In a letter last week,
:05:53. > :05:54.EU Commission President Donald Tusk described it as delicate
:05:55. > :05:56.and Poland declared it Some Sunday papers appeared to have
:05:57. > :06:00.been briefed that the Prime Minister was now willing to compromise
:06:01. > :06:03.on the issue - for example, by requiring UK as well as EU
:06:04. > :06:07.citizens to pay National Insurance contributions for four years before
:06:08. > :06:10.they can claim in-work benefits. But last night a Downing Street
:06:11. > :06:15.spokesman briefed "the proposal that is on the table
:06:16. > :06:18.is the four-year benefit delay one. "That's the basis
:06:19. > :06:21.of our renegotiation. David Cameron is due to discuss
:06:22. > :06:27.the issue with other leaders But there has already been angry
:06:28. > :06:31.reaction from some Tory MPs, who remember the Prime Minister's
:06:32. > :06:33.speech in autumn 2014, which placed cutting EU migration
:06:34. > :06:41.at the centre of his strategy. EU migrants should have a job offer
:06:42. > :06:43.before they come here. UK taxpayers will not
:06:44. > :06:47.support them if they don't. And once they are in work,
:06:48. > :06:50.they won't get benefits or social housing from Britain
:06:51. > :06:52.unless they have been Yes, these are radical
:06:53. > :07:03.reforms, but they And the British people
:07:04. > :07:06.need to know that changes to welfare to cut EU
:07:07. > :07:09.migration, they will be an absolute requirement in the negotiations
:07:10. > :07:13.I am going to undertake. I'm confident they will
:07:14. > :07:16.reduce significantly EU migration to the UK
:07:17. > :07:19.and that is what I am We're joined now by our political
:07:20. > :07:35.correspondent, Alex Forsyth, How likely is it the UK will
:07:36. > :07:40.compromise? There is a school of thought that says it is a
:07:41. > :07:44.manufactured argument and the reason David Cameron faces opposition is so
:07:45. > :07:48.when he comes to Brussels to negotiate the final deal, he can go
:07:49. > :07:54.back to the UK and say it was tough, and what I have managed to achieve
:07:55. > :07:59.is worthwhile. I think on this point of welfare, there is genuine
:08:00. > :08:03.opposition. We have had countries such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia,
:08:04. > :08:12.saying they do not agree. What we are hearing from the government
:08:13. > :08:17.is... This morning, Philip Hammond was in Brussels and spoke to us on
:08:18. > :08:20.the way into a meeting of foreign affairs and esters. His language
:08:21. > :08:28.suggested it might be time for compromise. The four-year waiting
:08:29. > :08:33.time for access to benefits has been a consistent demand. We put that
:08:34. > :08:40.proposal on the table. We have heard a lot of partners in Europe have
:08:41. > :08:43.concerns about it. So far, we have not heard counterproposals, we have
:08:44. > :08:49.not heard alternative suggestions that will deliver the same effect in
:08:50. > :08:53.a different way. We have made clear if people have other ideas that will
:08:54. > :08:56.deliver on this important agenda for the British people we are prepared
:08:57. > :09:01.to listen and enter into dialogue about them. At the moment, the only
:09:02. > :09:12.proposition is our four-year proposal. He does talk about other
:09:13. > :09:16.ideas they would be open to listening to, what might they be? We
:09:17. > :09:21.had a suggestion by Boris Johnson who points to the Danish model where
:09:22. > :09:26.there are rules where before you buy a property you have to meet
:09:27. > :09:32.residency criteria. The problem with that is it may require change to
:09:33. > :09:37.domestic law and who is eligible for benefits in the UK. Another idea is
:09:38. > :09:40.an emergency brake, so if the UK could show public services are
:09:41. > :09:45.overwhelmed there might be a possibility to limit migration. But
:09:46. > :09:49.question marks about who would decide the criteria and how you
:09:50. > :09:54.activate it. Downing Street saying they are not formal proposals. The
:09:55. > :09:59.only one seriously considered is theirs on welfare and that is where
:10:00. > :10:03.the attention is focused. European leaders meeting later this week to
:10:04. > :10:08.discuss this, what I think is the bigger challenge is not just what
:10:09. > :10:13.David Cameron can get agreement on, but whatever he achieves, whether it
:10:14. > :10:17.will be enough to satisfy those who have concerns about the yuan the
:10:18. > :10:22.basis of immigration. Will the outcome make a difference in that
:10:23. > :10:26.referendum, of this negotiation? Apologies for some of the technical
:10:27. > :10:33.difficulties on sound. Occasionally we have these problems. We are
:10:34. > :10:38.joined by the Conservative MP. Has this turned into a meaningless
:10:39. > :10:42.exercise? There were four things the Prime Minister was asking for and
:10:43. > :10:48.this is the politically sensitive one. There are other important ones
:10:49. > :10:52.making sure that even though we are not in the eurozone, that we have a
:10:53. > :10:59.fair crack at the single market, protecting national parliaments, and
:11:00. > :11:05.Britain's adherence to ever closer union, those are important. It was a
:11:06. > :11:09.central part of the renegotiation and the redline seems to have been
:11:10. > :11:14.drawn by other EU leaders and now we hear it will do very little,
:11:15. > :11:19.according to the OBR, to cut levels of migration, which was the point of
:11:20. > :11:24.doing it. Part of the point. The other part is there is a strong
:11:25. > :11:29.feeling I share that people should not be able to come here and claim
:11:30. > :11:34.benefits from day one, or in particular, one that gets people,
:11:35. > :11:38.the idea of sending child benefit to children who have never set foot in
:11:39. > :11:45.this country. Those are the details at the heart of the negotiation. Do
:11:46. > :11:51.you accept it will not have a significant impact on migration? We
:11:52. > :11:56.don't know. You cannot be sure what mix of motives there are. But a
:11:57. > :12:00.requirement in renegotiation, and it does not look like he will deliver
:12:01. > :12:05.what was first anticipated. We cannot know that. That is why the
:12:06. > :12:11.Foreign Secretary is saying that if other people have ideas to help us
:12:12. > :12:17.do this, fine, but at the moment, the British Government's idea is the
:12:18. > :12:22.only one on the table. Damien is doing a brave job. Have you met
:12:23. > :12:26.anyone, is anyone watching, thinking, I am undecided but a
:12:27. > :12:33.four-year moratorium, on benefits, that is the clincher for me? Instead
:12:34. > :12:42.of asking for meaningful changes in the location of sovereignty they a
:12:43. > :12:46.list of demands -- have a list of demands of what he knows he can get
:12:47. > :12:52.so he can come back and declare victory. What is significant, if the
:12:53. > :12:55.EU is unable to make significant concessions now when its
:12:56. > :13:00.second-largest economy is about to have a referendum, what would it be
:13:01. > :13:04.like after we voted to stay in? Imagine with that permission, we
:13:05. > :13:09.would be ignored and taken for granted. Why is it the centrepiece
:13:10. > :13:15.of the negotiation? The only people you know care deeply about this
:13:16. > :13:20.politically are Tory MPs. You declared it the centrepiece will
:13:21. > :13:23.stop I think Downing Street made it the centrepiece and Philip Hammond
:13:24. > :13:27.and David Cameron are talking about it as if it is the be all and end
:13:28. > :13:33.all. Was it a tactical error to make it?
:13:34. > :13:39.Where I do not agree with him is he's says the renegotiation is a
:13:40. > :13:45.fraud. I do not think that is true. There is renegotiation. The fact
:13:46. > :13:51.that people have not said you can have it, shows that this means real
:13:52. > :13:55.reform will happen in Europe. Nothing the Prime Minister brought
:13:56. > :14:03.back would satisfy the hardline people... Hang on. David Owen set
:14:04. > :14:08.out a plan, a reasonable plan for staying in the market but opting out
:14:09. > :14:13.of the political ones. Someone who left the Labour Party because it was
:14:14. > :14:16.insufficiently pro-EU. I would have happily gone with that but for some
:14:17. > :14:25.reason the PM did not go for it. Why not? That is pulling out of the EU,
:14:26. > :14:28.creating something that would put at risk the single market and
:14:29. > :14:32.cooperation on security, the fact that Britain's voice in the world is
:14:33. > :14:40.louder because of membership. Putting that at risk will be at the
:14:41. > :14:42.heart of the referendum campaign. We are talking about political
:14:43. > :14:48.institutions. We are agreed that what ever the outcome, we will stay
:14:49. > :14:57.in the single market. It is not our single market. Not a single European
:14:58. > :15:01.country, in or outside the EU, faces tariffs when selling to the EU.
:15:02. > :15:07.These would have to tariffs when selling to the EU.
:15:08. > :15:12.true there is nothing that would keep Britain in the EU, that you
:15:13. > :15:15.would ever support, that is the case? That is not true. I have
:15:16. > :15:25.written articles saying that UK law, freedom to trade outside the EU,
:15:26. > :15:30.they are perfectly reasonable. It would mean us having to leave. We
:15:31. > :15:32.could have gone for those things in an amicable renegotiation.
:15:33. > :15:34.could have gone for those things in have been achievable. It will not
:15:35. > :15:38.happen because it is not on have been achievable. It will not
:15:39. > :15:42.agenda and the only way to get them is to vote to leave and strike a
:15:43. > :15:44.deal from the outside. When you know the British
:15:45. > :15:48.deal from the outside. When you know to recommend his deal, campaign to
:15:49. > :15:51.stay in, whatever, why make concessions? They will save
:15:52. > :15:58.He is worried about the result of leave.
:15:59. > :16:03.He is worried about the result of the referendum if he is talking
:16:04. > :16:05.about what happens after. Talking about Eurocrats as if there is a
:16:06. > :16:07.homogenous body democratic friendly countries all of
:16:08. > :16:12.whom have democratic friendly countries all of
:16:13. > :16:16.the world and all of whom for some peculiar reason wants to do Britain
:16:17. > :16:19.down. That is what is not true. That peculiar reason wants to do Britain
:16:20. > :16:29.are no Eurocrats who are a body peculiar reason wants to do Britain
:16:30. > :16:32.Germany to Scandinavia, all of whom who have one for you and what to do
:16:33. > :16:40.Britain down. I am not suggesting that might want to do Britain down.
:16:41. > :16:45.What Angela Merkel says is the same, we want to have a United States of
:16:46. > :16:56.Europe, we want more integration millet narrowly -- militarily and
:16:57. > :17:02.politically. We want market access. It is not going to happen through
:17:03. > :17:06.these talks. Moving away from the in work benefits, what else can really
:17:07. > :17:13.be achieved that is substantial that is going to make a difference to
:17:14. > :17:17.everyday people? Talking about retaining national sovereignty, not
:17:18. > :17:21.wanting ever closer union, these are words written down in documents,
:17:22. > :17:25.how's it going to be materially different to what we have now? What
:17:26. > :17:32.we have now is the best of all worlds. We are members of the single
:17:33. > :17:38.market but have control of borders. We do not belong to the euro. It
:17:39. > :17:44.clearly beneficial to Britain to have its own currency. We want to
:17:45. > :17:51.reform Europe so it gets better. That sounds very general. That will
:17:52. > :17:56.not mean anything to the person down the pub saying we are going to
:17:57. > :18:05.reform this institution to make it better. Better in what way? Better
:18:06. > :18:08.in terms of security. We live in an increasingly dangerous world. We
:18:09. > :18:13.have seen terrible events in Paris and who knows when they are going to
:18:14. > :18:17.happen in some other European country? It makes sense to have
:18:18. > :18:22.things like the European Arrest Warrant that allows us to chase
:18:23. > :18:26.people quickly across borders. It makes sense to sign up to
:18:27. > :18:31.co-operation measures that enable quick exchange of DNA information of
:18:32. > :18:35.convicted criminals and terrorists. That is the kind of thing the
:18:36. > :18:40.European Union gives us that makes the streets of Britain safer that
:18:41. > :18:50.would be put at risk. Do you believe legislating in the UK so that
:18:51. > :18:55.British as well as EU people must pay contributions is viable? That is
:18:56. > :19:01.the fallback position. They may get the deal. The reason we are not in
:19:02. > :19:07.the Europa is because Damien lost that argument and like so many of
:19:08. > :19:14.the people... We did not lose the argument. Let us not fight an
:19:15. > :19:19.argument that has been settled. They are using exactly the same scare
:19:20. > :19:23.tactics. They said if we did not join the single currency companies
:19:24. > :19:28.would relocate away from Britain. They were wrong then and are wrong
:19:29. > :19:33.now. What about in work benefits if you were to impose that on British
:19:34. > :19:41.workers for four years? Then it would be accepted. It would be
:19:42. > :19:45.accepted. Would you agree to that? I think the current proposal is a
:19:46. > :19:49.better one than that. It may be that somebody has a better idea to hit
:19:50. > :19:56.the underlying point about reducing migration. Nothing so far. Would you
:19:57. > :20:01.sign up to a deal if the compromises that British citizens will also be
:20:02. > :20:06.prevented from claiming in work benefits? It would depend,
:20:07. > :20:11.particularly with benefits you have to look at the detail. The broad
:20:12. > :20:16.brush approach does not work. There is a wider point that the benefits
:20:17. > :20:22.we get in people's daily lives in terms of jobs and prosperity are
:20:23. > :20:26.bought would be put at risk by pulling out of the European Union
:20:27. > :20:33.and that will be the actual heart of the referendum debate. The real risk
:20:34. > :20:39.would be voting to stay. This is an organisation that will not reform.
:20:40. > :20:41.If we stay we have the almost certainty of being dragged into
:20:42. > :20:46.deeper political and economic trouble. We will continue this
:20:47. > :20:47.conversation for many months, since we do not know when the data is
:20:48. > :20:55.going to be for this referendum. He spent 14 years in
:20:56. > :20:57.detention in Guantanamo Bay. Now, Saudi-born British resident
:20:58. > :20:59.Shaker Aamer has been speaking to the British media and alleging,
:21:00. > :21:01.among other things, that he was beaten in the presence
:21:02. > :21:04.of British intelligence officers. Let's hear a little of what he said
:21:05. > :21:07.when he spoke to the BBC's I have had my head boom,
:21:08. > :21:12.bang in the wall. And all the while I remember
:21:13. > :21:15.that my head is just keep banging the wall, back and forth,
:21:16. > :21:18.back and forth, back and forth. Are you adamant that there
:21:19. > :21:22.was an English officer, intelligence officer, agent,
:21:23. > :21:25.in that room when your head Because the way he spoke,
:21:26. > :21:37.the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting
:21:38. > :21:42.far away looking at me. And the day before I met someone
:21:43. > :21:48.who already told me I am I had no doubt from day
:21:49. > :21:57.one I would be out because I have no doubt that
:21:58. > :22:00.I did not do anything wrong Years after years after years,
:22:01. > :22:08.justice will prevail. It took 27 years for Nelson Mandela
:22:09. > :22:12.to get out and be the president It took me only 14 years to prove
:22:13. > :22:23.to the world that I am a good person Victoria Derbyshire talking
:22:24. > :22:27.to former Guantanamo detainee But not everyone is welcoming
:22:28. > :22:30.Mr Aamer back to the UK. Earlier I spoke to Hannah Stuart
:22:31. > :22:34.from the right-wing foreign affairs think tank the Henry
:22:35. > :22:35.Jackson Society. I started by asking her
:22:36. > :22:48.if she thought Shaker Aamer I am not sure necessarily that he
:22:49. > :22:51.now poses a threat to the United Kingdom but certainly when he was
:22:52. > :22:56.picked up the allegations were that he was fighting on behalf of Osama
:22:57. > :23:01.Bin Laden whose house he is believed to have been at. He was working for
:23:02. > :23:07.Islamic charities, he says. You might have been designated later as
:23:08. > :23:12.connected to Al-Qaeda. The Americans believed he was part of the Al-Qaeda
:23:13. > :23:19.network and was a threat not just to the UK but the wider western world.
:23:20. > :23:25.We had just been attacked in 9/11. He has denied that. He says proves
:23:26. > :23:29.that I was not working for a charity that was a genuine charity. Prove
:23:30. > :23:42.that I was associated with Osama bin Ladin and others who have turned out
:23:43. > :23:46.to be jihadi fighters. You, like the Americans, do not believe him. I am
:23:47. > :23:50.not prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that mainstream
:23:51. > :23:54.commentators do. It seems that because he has been a victim of
:23:55. > :23:59.human rights, and I am not disputing that, it is being said that
:24:00. > :24:03.everything that the Americans alleges not true but everything he
:24:04. > :24:07.alleges the Americans did to him is true and that is a double standard.
:24:08. > :24:11.Both of their behaviour should be under increased scrutiny. What
:24:12. > :24:18.concrete evidence other than claims and allegations from the US is there
:24:19. > :24:23.that Aamer was a terrorists and Al-Qaeda operative? There are a
:24:24. > :24:30.number of bits of evidence which come from documents, Gwent animal
:24:31. > :24:33.interrogations and interviews where he has confessed to a number of
:24:34. > :24:41.actions including Al-Qaeda leader training. He will say that is under
:24:42. > :24:55.duress as a result of torture. Some of those the Americans have said
:24:56. > :24:59.were tortured, but not him. Some people have alleged that Aamer was
:25:00. > :25:11.connected with Al-Qaeda operatives. He says that was under duress. We
:25:12. > :25:16.have here detailed claims by Shaker Aamer of torture over years. If that
:25:17. > :25:22.is true it is an abuse of his human rights and lets down the Western
:25:23. > :25:29.world. The treatment meted out to him does not white was the
:25:30. > :25:33.allegations and he chose to take his family to live under Taliban rule.
:25:34. > :25:38.That says a lot about the sort of society he would like to 11 and the
:25:39. > :25:42.charities he was connected to, those he willingly acknowledges he working
:25:43. > :25:49.for, our Al-Qaeda designated charities. If the evidence is there,
:25:50. > :25:54.why is he not facing trial? Britain has no legal case against Shaker
:25:55. > :26:00.Aamer. They have no jurisdiction over his actions in Afghanistan at
:26:01. > :26:06.that time. We have seen British fighters joining the conflict in
:26:07. > :26:10.Syria, an extension of jurisdiction. That is something that has been put
:26:11. > :26:15.in place in the last 18 months. It was not there then. It is right that
:26:16. > :26:19.the UK's legal system cannot be applied retrospectively so we do not
:26:20. > :26:24.have a legal case against Shaker Aamer. The US has established a
:26:25. > :26:28.system of military tribunal is which is supposed to address those issues
:26:29. > :26:34.and some people from Guantanamo were tried. Why was that not the case for
:26:35. > :26:38.Shaker Aamer? I believe the military tribunal is very complex and
:26:39. > :26:42.difficult and very few of the detainees have been put under
:26:43. > :26:48.military tribunal. Shaker Aamer was cleared a number of years ago, in
:26:49. > :26:51.2007, and released to Saudi Arabia. That is what the Americans wanted to
:26:52. > :26:57.do, to release him back to his country of birth. He chose to fight
:26:58. > :27:02.that. Some would say rightly or wrongly, because he wanted to come
:27:03. > :27:06.back to his family in the UK. If there is not enough evidence to
:27:07. > :27:11.convict somebody how can there be enough evidence to detain somebody
:27:12. > :27:15.without trial for so many years? I do not think that Guantanamo should
:27:16. > :27:19.exist or there is a case. I do not think people should be held without
:27:20. > :27:25.trial. That does not mean I think he is innocent. Is that not the crux of
:27:26. > :27:29.this case, that holding somebody for that length of time without a trial
:27:30. > :27:36.or without gathering of evidence that could be put on trial is always
:27:37. > :27:39.going to end up in either a miscarriage of justice or with
:27:40. > :27:46.complaints about alleged torture of false imprisonment? Yes. What
:27:47. > :27:49.distinguishes a functioning state from a gang of terrorists is the
:27:50. > :27:49.distinguishes a functioning state rule of law, due process and
:27:50. > :27:55.procedure where people are surly rule of law, due process and
:27:56. > :28:00.tried and you cannot keep somebody locked up without bringing charges
:28:01. > :28:07.against them. We established that in Magna Carta. That is
:28:08. > :28:10.against them. We established that in like Al-Qaeda. They would argue
:28:11. > :28:15.these are special circumstances, following the attacks in 2001, the
:28:16. > :28:17.national security in a way was more important for that period of
:28:18. > :28:23.national security in a way was more than the concerns that you have just
:28:24. > :28:27.outlined, and a lot of people will feel sympathy. That is the argument
:28:28. > :28:27.outlined, and a lot of people will always made. It is or was that of
:28:28. > :28:36.cases that make the bad law. People always made. It is or was that of
:28:37. > :28:41.we should suspend due process. I have no idea what this man was doing
:28:42. > :28:44.taking his family to Afghanistan. There are lots of things that no
:28:45. > :28:48.dodgy about this case but none of that is relevant if there was no
:28:49. > :29:00.evidence to bring against him in a due court. Thank you.
:29:01. > :29:03.On Wednesday, it's the last Prime Minister's Questions
:29:04. > :29:06.of the term and Jeremy Corbyn and David Cameron will be back
:29:07. > :29:09.Wednesday also sees the monthly unemployment figures published.
:29:10. > :29:12.Last month's figures showed that unemployment fell by just over
:29:13. > :29:16.100,000, with the unemployment rate at 5.3%.
:29:17. > :29:19.The BBC Director General, Lord Hall, is in front of the Culture Committee
:29:20. > :29:25.Will he also be asked about Tyson Fury being nominated
:29:26. > :29:31.Thursday and Friday sees the eagerly anticipated EU summit in Brussels.
:29:32. > :29:36.The Prime Minister has conceded that the meeting will not resolve
:29:37. > :29:40.Britain's EU renegotiation "in one go" and, consequently,
:29:41. > :29:44.he now does not expect to get agreement at the meeting.
:29:45. > :29:47.Unison elect a new leader on Thursday - Dave Prentis,
:29:48. > :29:50.the incumbent, will be standing for a third time,
:29:51. > :29:54.And the DUP announce their new leader after
:29:55. > :29:59.Northern Ireland Finance Minister Arlene Foster is the only candidate.
:30:00. > :30:01.The new leader will also become the new First Minister
:30:02. > :30:08.We're joined now by the Telegraph's Christopher Hope and The Times' Lucy
:30:09. > :30:24.Christmas cheer for David Cameron at the EU summit? He is going with not
:30:25. > :30:31.much in his Christmas sack this year. Trying to get a four-year ban
:30:32. > :30:34.for benefits on EU migrants going nowhere and Boris Johnson popping up
:30:35. > :30:38.with an idea about Denmark and how they can opt out to stop foreigners
:30:39. > :30:45.buying property there. It is not easy. Not the end of negotiations he
:30:46. > :30:49.wanted, it will drag to February which is not good news for him.
:30:50. > :30:55.Number 10 say they hold the line on the issue but we hear phrases about
:30:56. > :31:00.being open to other ideas, and other suggestions from EU leaders will be
:31:01. > :31:06.welcomed. Is it an admission of failure? It has been branded
:31:07. > :31:10.humiliating climb-down by David Cameron's critics. He is stressing
:31:11. > :31:15.flexibility. It is possible to see other options on the table that
:31:16. > :31:20.could address migrants coming to the UK and limit the attractiveness of
:31:21. > :31:25.the option, such as an emergency brake or changing domestic
:31:26. > :31:31.legislation. Their manifesto included a pledge to crack down on
:31:32. > :31:39.child benefit and tax credits for EU migrants. And levels of migration,
:31:40. > :31:47.which was slightly questioned by the OBR. Tory sceptics -- Eurosceptics
:31:48. > :32:03.will enjoy the discomfort of number 10. I think Daniel -- what he set
:32:04. > :32:06.out, and a big group that looks after the Tory Eurosceptics, he is
:32:07. > :32:14.saying to party members when you meet the MP over Christmas, get them
:32:15. > :32:22.to vote for Brexit. It is like a Tory version of Momentum. Jeremy
:32:23. > :32:28.Corbyn, coming up to his first 100 days as leader. Is his position now
:32:29. > :32:33.more secure than a month ago? I do. You hear members of his closest team
:32:34. > :32:41.talking about the fact most of the errors he has made, such as quoting,
:32:42. > :32:46.John McDonnell quoting Chairman Mao, are unforced errors from their own
:32:47. > :32:50.side. There is a degree of paranoia from his team but they are certain
:32:51. > :32:56.of the overwhelming support of the membership and they know for now he
:32:57. > :33:01.is saved, certainly until May, so they have time to get their people
:33:02. > :33:10.in positions of power in local parties. We will see selections for
:33:11. > :33:15.delegates and that will be a key moment, and party rule changes will
:33:16. > :33:20.shore up his position even further. Lucy talking about getting people
:33:21. > :33:24.into positions of influence to present the style of leadership in
:33:25. > :33:30.the Labour Party feeds into speculation about Shadow Cabinet
:33:31. > :33:36.reshuffle is. Is there anything concrete, the idea Ken Livingstone
:33:37. > :33:42.would be put in the House of Lords? That is where we are, the fact that
:33:43. > :33:51.Redken could emerge in red ermine in the House of Lords a player in
:33:52. > :33:56.national Labour politics. It is like 1981. Labour have to work out when
:33:57. > :34:00.they want to start governing again, rather than protesting. That is a
:34:01. > :34:01.question the Labour Party must think about over Christmas. I wish you a
:34:02. > :34:06.good festive season. We're joined now by the Labour MP
:34:07. > :34:09.and Shadow Women's Minister And Craig MacKinlay,
:34:10. > :34:12.who's been the MP for Thanet South since May, where he beat off
:34:13. > :34:15.a challenge from Ukip leader Let's just remind ourselves
:34:16. > :34:18.of that big election night Craig McKinley, the Conservative
:34:19. > :34:58.Party candidate, 18,848. Welcome to both of you and happy
:34:59. > :35:03.memories there, were you confident of winning? We were as time went on.
:35:04. > :35:07.We did a lot of canvassing and it was clear we would win, it was the
:35:08. > :35:12.margin, we knew it would be tight but we thought we would win. You
:35:13. > :35:16.would founder, deputy leader and leader of UK before defecting to the
:35:17. > :35:21.Conservatives, what was it like to defeat Nigel Farage? It was bizarre,
:35:22. > :35:27.why he bothered to stand against me, a strange choice. It was a shame
:35:28. > :35:31.from personal friendships we shared in the early days of Ukip that we
:35:32. > :35:38.were fighting each other but a handsome victory and he was rather
:35:39. > :35:42.silly. Cat Smith, Jeremy Corbyn, about two approaches 100 days. You
:35:43. > :35:47.worked in his office, did you imagine he would be leader? When I
:35:48. > :35:51.nominated Jeremy Corbyn for leader at the beginning of the process I
:35:52. > :35:56.was not confident we would get him on the ballot paper, so the idea of
:35:57. > :36:01.him becoming leader seemed far-away. What we have seen through the first
:36:02. > :36:07.100 days is he is in a stronger position now than he was. He won a
:36:08. > :36:10.huge mandate from the membership and we have seen that grow in terms of
:36:11. > :36:16.support with many more people saying to me, I did not support him but I
:36:17. > :36:22.see what he's doing, they really like what he is doing. How is that
:36:23. > :36:26.manifested in itself? He has a big mandate but there is a rift in the
:36:27. > :36:32.Parliamentary party, is he winning them over? I dispute there is a big
:36:33. > :36:39.rift in the Labour Parliamentary party, which has always had a
:36:40. > :36:44.diversity of views. If you look at the vote on Syria. The majority of
:36:45. > :36:50.party members, the Parliamentary Labour Party, MPs and Shadow Cabinet
:36:51. > :36:53.posts the intervention and if you said a week before the vote that
:36:54. > :37:00.would be the outcome I don't think anyone would believe it. Why did he
:37:01. > :37:05.win the vote -- whip the vote. I do not think we should whip the vote on
:37:06. > :37:09.matters of war and peace. I think in future we will have free votes on
:37:10. > :37:13.issues as serious as that because as an MP you have to listen to your
:37:14. > :37:18.conscience, as well as what the party whips tell you. How does it
:37:19. > :37:21.work when you have the Shadow Foreign Secretary with the
:37:22. > :37:28.government and against the party leader on a key issue Assyria? You
:37:29. > :37:34.saw how it worked. Some MPs decided to vote with Hilary Benn, a minority
:37:35. > :37:38.of MPs, and the majority were convinced by the arguments Jeremy
:37:39. > :37:43.Corbyn made to oppose action. It was not the right answer to the question
:37:44. > :37:49.posed. What about Ken Livingstone? Labour Party HQ said it was
:37:50. > :37:53.nonsense. It is nonsense. He will not be put into the House of Lords
:37:54. > :37:58.or Shadow Cabinet? I think Ken Livingstone did a great job as Mayor
:37:59. > :38:03.of London and is a good support to the party but I do not see him
:38:04. > :38:08.playing a big role in the future. Is he not very much part of Jeremy
:38:09. > :38:13.Corbyn's thinking in terms of new politics? There are a lot of other
:38:14. > :38:17.people. The House of Lords, if Labour put names forward to go into
:38:18. > :38:21.the House of Lords, I would like to imagine the names did not include a
:38:22. > :38:30.majority of older, white men. The Lords is dominated by them and I
:38:31. > :38:33.would like to see others to represent diversity in the House of
:38:34. > :38:39.Lords. Is that why you would not want to see Ken Livingstone as part
:38:40. > :38:43.of a Shadow Cabinet? I see the Labour Party being more diverse and
:38:44. > :38:47.representative. Jeremy set the example by having more women in the
:38:48. > :38:52.Shadow Cabinet for the first time, having a majority there. Jeremy's
:38:53. > :38:58.view will be a more diverse front bench team. How will he moulds the
:38:59. > :39:02.Shadow Cabinet more in his and John McDonnell's image? In that sense
:39:03. > :39:09.Shadow Cabinet more in his and John are having discussions as a
:39:10. > :39:12.Parliamentary Labour Party. I imagine the Shadow Cabinet have the
:39:13. > :39:19.Parliamentary Labour Party. Discussing ideas is important, to
:39:20. > :39:21.have an open debate. We have had that open debate and I am grateful
:39:22. > :39:25.for that. Now, should 16 and 17-year-olds be
:39:26. > :39:28.able to vote in the in-out Many peers in the House of Lords
:39:29. > :39:32.think so and they're likely to vote in favour of that again today
:39:33. > :39:35.in teeth of opposition from the government who say they're
:39:36. > :39:47.frustrating the will of elected MPs. What say you? I am not in favour. It
:39:48. > :39:53.is bizarre the unelected house, having a discussion of that place,
:39:54. > :39:59.is trying to influence the franchise for an election, it is a bizarre
:40:00. > :40:02.state of affairs. I don't agree 16 and 17-year-olds
:40:03. > :40:04.state of affairs. I don't agree 16 elections but if we want to change
:40:05. > :40:09.the franchise it should be elections but if we want to change
:40:10. > :40:11.debate for all elections, there should be a
:40:12. > :40:14.debate for all elections, there take an amount of time with a
:40:15. > :40:19.debate for all elections, there commission to decide yes it is a
:40:20. > :40:20.good or bad idea. We have the Scottish referendum. This would be
:40:21. > :40:25.another election and that is Scottish referendum. This would be
:40:26. > :40:27.start these things? Just because the Scots did it under devolved
:40:28. > :40:30.start these things? Just because the is a matter for them. You
:40:31. > :40:35.start these things? Just because the think it was a success? I don't
:40:36. > :40:41.think it is a good idea. Youngsters, we want them involved in the
:40:42. > :40:45.political process. 18 to 24-year-olds are the lowest turnout,
:40:46. > :40:48.I want to encourage it when they are 18 and onwards and I am not
:40:49. > :40:53.convinced those under 18... They 18 and onwards and I am not
:40:54. > :40:59.have not always joined the world of work. They are not into taxation,
:41:00. > :41:05.they cannot do many things. If there was a commission... I think this is
:41:06. > :41:09.the wrong approach. In order to encourage young people to engage in
:41:10. > :41:13.politics and debate arguments, we need them to be franchise to take
:41:14. > :41:19.part in votes. We saw in Scotland that those are 16 and 17 listen to
:41:20. > :41:23.the arguments and will probably vote that future elections. Evidence
:41:24. > :41:28.shows the more likely you are to vote when you have voted Young.
:41:29. > :41:34.I.e., the first time you have done it. You put your cross in the box
:41:35. > :41:39.once and can do it again. It is important the 16 and 17-year-olds
:41:40. > :41:45.today, who will live with the consequences of the referendum, have
:41:46. > :41:49.a stake in that. That is the point. Generally about the franchise, not
:41:50. > :41:54.just added on for one election. I would be happy to see the franchise
:41:55. > :42:00.extended for all elections. Let's have the debate. We have seen in
:42:01. > :42:03.Scotland that voting young people is a huge success. We have an
:42:04. > :42:08.opportunity to see if it is a success in the rest of the UK. Let's
:42:09. > :42:15.go on to the EU renegotiation, what you make of it? I think he could
:42:16. > :42:20.have gone with asking for more than the four baskets he has asked for
:42:21. > :42:23.and it seems one of the key points, the restriction of in work benefits
:42:24. > :42:31.seems to have been rebuffed by EU partners. They realise Britain is on
:42:32. > :42:37.the cusp of 50-50 Brexit, they must realise that and they must realise
:42:38. > :42:42.they need to give us a fair bit to that renegotiation that a lot of
:42:43. > :42:45.people want, or else there will be a Brexit. We are being intransigent
:42:46. > :42:53.and I am shocked by the approach taken. Which way would you vote? I
:42:54. > :42:59.am out. Out even if he secures renegotiation on the four baskets as
:43:00. > :43:07.you call it? He went for renegotiation, a fundamental
:43:08. > :43:10.renegotiation, I do not think he was asking for that. In my mind
:43:11. > :43:13.fundamental is more. If he delivered that and perhaps more, yes. I am not
:43:14. > :43:18.out at any cost but at the moment I am more out than in because I do not
:43:19. > :43:23.think what is negotiated is fundamental. The manifesto
:43:24. > :43:27.commitment was to reform the EU to try to bring down there. Migration.
:43:28. > :43:32.Do you think that would do that? I think it would help, but there are
:43:33. > :43:39.other factors why EU immigrants are coming to Britain, not least the
:43:40. > :43:48.failures in Euroland, mass unemployment in Greece. And the
:43:49. > :43:51.reason people are coming here is we have a vibrant economy, a global
:43:52. > :43:56.economy. It is more than just benefits involved. Do you think
:43:57. > :44:01.increasing the national wage could be a pull factor? Facts could be
:44:02. > :44:06.another reason why Romanian wages are probably a quarter of what they
:44:07. > :44:13.are here, and that difference will be greater as we go to the national
:44:14. > :44:18.wage. If you extended a four-year ban on in work benefits to EU
:44:19. > :44:22.migrants to British workers, that might be accepted, because it would
:44:23. > :44:27.not discriminate, would you support that? I think what is going on is
:44:28. > :44:31.camera and trying to please Tory backbenchers who wish for the exit
:44:32. > :44:38.door. His renegotiation is around whether we would deny EU migrants
:44:39. > :44:40.benefits for for years and whether he would penalise young British
:44:41. > :44:46.workers by denying them benefits goes to show how far he will go to
:44:47. > :44:50.hurt British workers by trying to please Tory backbenchers. If it was
:44:51. > :44:54.part of the deal, then it would no longer be discriminatory, and it
:44:55. > :45:02.might be accepted, would you support it? Labour's position is clear, we
:45:03. > :45:07.support being a member of the EU. I am asking about the specific on in
:45:08. > :45:12.work benefits because one option might be to say that until you have
:45:13. > :45:16.worked for years and contributed here, you also won't be able to
:45:17. > :45:17.claim in work benefits will stop then everybody is treated fairly.
:45:18. > :45:28.Would you back that? That is wrong. Penalising workers
:45:29. > :45:33.for four years is wrong. I said it should be two years. Looking more
:45:34. > :45:38.seriously at the bigger picture this is all about camera and trying to
:45:39. > :45:47.please... You have said that but Labour will be... Labour will be
:45:48. > :45:52.campaigning. We would not support the four year ban on benefits. We
:45:53. > :45:56.would stay within the EU and when we had the chance we would reverse that
:45:57. > :46:01.if we were to be in power. That is fair enough. You think David Cameron
:46:02. > :46:06.should compromise to try to get something on in work benefits or
:46:07. > :46:12.stick to his guns? I think he should stick to his guns but it is a
:46:13. > :46:18.developing situation. We will not know until Thursday. It seems pretty
:46:19. > :46:21.clear. It seems pretty clear. It would be fundamentally wrong to
:46:22. > :46:26.change the basis of how we do benefits in the UK for our citizens
:46:27. > :46:30.to fit a stalled EU negotiations so I do not support that. We should
:46:31. > :46:35.have the flexibility to have whatever benefit system we want in
:46:36. > :46:40.the UK, not to be changed by membership of the EU. You would not
:46:41. > :46:44.want to see any extension and you think there would be other Tories
:46:45. > :46:48.and Eurosceptics who would feel the same. It seems a funny back door way
:46:49. > :46:49.of trying to achieve what has been in negotiation point. The wrong way
:46:50. > :46:52.of doing it. Now, fans of Margaret Thatcher,
:46:53. > :46:54.or political memorabilia, A collection of the former
:46:55. > :46:57.PM's possessions - from dresses to handbags,
:46:58. > :46:59.books to ornaments - is being auctioned
:47:00. > :47:01.off at Christie's. But before you decide
:47:02. > :47:03.whether to bid for the Iron Lady's former despatch box or her favourite
:47:04. > :47:06.set of earrings, take a look at Peter Hunt's behind the scenes
:47:07. > :47:09.report on what's up for grabs and what it might tell us
:47:10. > :47:12.about Britain's first,