:00:39. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.The Prime Minister's EU Referendum Bill has passed its final
:00:43. > :00:44.hurdle in Parliament, paving the way
:00:45. > :00:47.for a vote that could see Britain leave the European Union.
:00:48. > :00:50.We'll be looking at what obstacles remain.
:00:51. > :00:53.Plenty of people have talked before of an electoral pact between Labour
:00:54. > :01:00.Could that be their only chance of defeating the Conservatives?
:01:01. > :01:03.Everyone's getting rather excited about the new Star Wars film,
:01:04. > :01:06.but does one of the most successful franchises of all time really carry
:01:07. > :01:13.And Christmas is coming and with it a crop of politicians
:01:14. > :01:23.We'll have a look at some of the best.
:01:24. > :01:26.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:27. > :01:30.of the programme today is the former Labour MP Chris Mullin.
:01:31. > :01:33.He's also a diarist and wrote the novel A Very British Coup
:01:34. > :01:35.about a left-wing Labour leader who unexpectedly defies his critics
:01:36. > :01:40.Apparently it's been selling very well.
:01:41. > :01:43.And not all of the extra copies were bought by Jeremy Corbyn.
:01:44. > :01:50.First today let's talk about plans for a referendum on Britain's EU
:01:51. > :01:52.membership, which have moved one step closer after a Government
:01:53. > :01:56.victory in the House of Lords last night.
:01:57. > :01:59.Peers rejected a Labour Party proposal designed to give 16
:02:00. > :02:01.and 17-year-olds a vote in the referendum, ending
:02:02. > :02:09.the parliamentary back-and-forth over the EU Referendum Bill.
:02:10. > :02:11.The Government now hopes it will receive Royal Assent and be
:02:12. > :02:20.So with that hurdle out of the way, what are the other big milestones
:02:21. > :02:24.The vote itself will have to take place no later than 31st
:02:25. > :02:31.Anyone aged 18 or over by the date of the referendum will be eligible
:02:32. > :02:36.to vote, but citizens from other EU countries will not.
:02:37. > :02:39.The question on the ballot paper will be, "Should the UK remain
:02:40. > :02:45.The campaign period for the referendum must be at least
:02:46. > :02:48.ten weeks long, during which the lead campaign groups -
:02:49. > :02:50.still to be officially designated by the Electoral Commission -
:02:51. > :02:55.will have to abide by strict regulations.
:02:56. > :02:58.The Government was defeated in an attempt to scrap the so-called
:02:59. > :03:01.purdah period, meaning that for the 28 days before polling day
:03:02. > :03:04.ministers won't be able to make any announcements which could influence
:03:05. > :03:09.the result of the referendum question.
:03:10. > :03:11.On Thursday, David Cameron will travel to Brussels
:03:12. > :03:14.to make his case to other EU leaders at a summit of the European Council.
:03:15. > :03:16.On Thursday David Cameron will travel to Brussels
:03:17. > :03:20.to make his case to other EU leaders at a summit of the European Council.
:03:21. > :03:22.The sticking point continues to be the Prime Minister's desire
:03:23. > :03:25.to prevent EU migrants from claiming in-work benefits in the UK
:03:26. > :03:28.for the first four years of their stay.
:03:29. > :03:32.No agreement is likely to be reached this week,
:03:33. > :03:34.but European Council President Donald Tusk has said he hopes
:03:35. > :03:39.the summit will pave the way for an agreement by February.
:03:40. > :03:41.But last night the European Scrutiny Committee, chaired by Conservative
:03:42. > :03:48.MP Bill Cash, said that fundamental reform of the sort David Cameron had
:03:49. > :03:52.envisaged would not be possible without treaty change,
:03:53. > :03:54.itself not possible in time for the referendum.
:03:55. > :03:57.Well Bill Cash joins us now, and our guest of the day
:03:58. > :04:12.Your report is a reminder that it is a straight appeal to waivers to vote
:04:13. > :04:18.to leave. It is a warning to voters across the board. Because in order
:04:19. > :04:23.for David Cameron to achieve his objectives, it is essential if it is
:04:24. > :04:32.to be binding that there is treaty change. That means an amendment to
:04:33. > :04:37.the treaty or a protocol, so it is essential that the people who are
:04:38. > :04:41.being asked to vote on this historic occasion, that they know that it is
:04:42. > :04:46.meaningful and capable of delivery. The question before the voters will
:04:47. > :04:54.be whether to remain or leave the EU. There will be those with fixed
:04:55. > :04:58.views one way or another, irrespective of the renegotiation
:04:59. > :05:02.and that is you, no matter what David Cameron brings back, you will
:05:03. > :05:07.vote to leave? I have personally come to the conclusion having voted
:05:08. > :05:12.yes in 1975 and for the single European act that the Maastrict
:05:13. > :05:17.treaty and the treaties since then have evolved into a situation where
:05:18. > :05:23.we have lost control over the most important parts of how we are
:05:24. > :05:27.governed and the issues that are so fundamental to our democracy that
:05:28. > :05:35.there is no alternative but to leave. So everything you say is
:05:36. > :05:41.tarnished by your thoughts whatever happens you would vote to get out.
:05:42. > :05:45.So saying the Prime Minister cannot get meaningful change, you will
:05:46. > :05:49.always say that. Well this is a committee from all parts of the
:05:50. > :05:54.House and we agreed the rrt and that report -- report and that report was
:05:55. > :05:59.with some tweaks was agreed within the committee. So it this is an
:06:00. > :06:02.all-party committee and it is important that people should know it
:06:03. > :06:09.was not just from one point of view, it was actually across the board.
:06:10. > :06:13.Chris Mullin, he is right, without treaty change they cannot be a
:06:14. > :06:16.fundamental renegotiation and No 10 knows that treaty change is not
:06:17. > :06:20.going to happen before the referendum takes place. Well I think
:06:21. > :06:27.that is right. I don't think David Cameron ever intended to get into
:06:28. > :06:31.any of this. He decided to have a referendum for short-term reasons to
:06:32. > :06:35.get Bill and his mates off his back and in doing so lit a very long
:06:36. > :06:41.fuse. As a result we are destined to spend the next two or three years
:06:42. > :06:44.discussing this and maybe beyond that, discussing the consequences of
:06:45. > :06:50.this. I come at it from a different view, I'm in favour of staying in.
:06:51. > :06:56.At any cost? Well I'm in favour of staying in, I don't mind renegotiate
:06:57. > :07:04.shup taking place. -- renegotiation taking place. I asked a business in
:07:05. > :07:08.Sunderland what would be the consequences of withdrawal, and he
:07:09. > :07:14.said an immediate collapse of inward investment. That is a wake up call.
:07:15. > :07:19.Nissan said they didn't think it would make that much difference only
:07:20. > :07:26.a couple of months ago. But basically Chris and I agree about
:07:27. > :07:34.the inevengtiveness of -- ineffectiveness of a lot of what has
:07:35. > :07:40.been going on. The report says the renegotiation strategy is reactive
:07:41. > :07:45.and opaque. What is opaque about it? We do know, you may not think they
:07:46. > :07:49.amount to much, but we no what the Prime Minister is demanding, it was
:07:50. > :07:53.set out in the manifesto and it has been repeated in various letters.
:07:54. > :08:00.Well first, as far as the letter is concerned, that was the letter that
:08:01. > :08:02.was sent to Mr Tusk. That was only published because of an exchange I
:08:03. > :08:06.had with a journalist during the course of the press conference, it
:08:07. > :08:11.wouldn't have been made available to the public or to Parliament at all.
:08:12. > :08:15.But it was the reprint of the what was promised in the manifesto? No,
:08:16. > :08:18.it wasn't, it contained a lot of important questions, which had not
:08:19. > :08:24.been advanced before. And actually was not going to be published. The
:08:25. > :08:28.other thing is regarding this question of the refusal of the
:08:29. > :08:33.government through the minister for Europe and the Foreign Secretary to
:08:34. > :08:38.give us a full explanation of where they were on the benefits issue. We
:08:39. > :08:42.did ask them to send us a copy of what they had in minuted and they
:08:43. > :08:49.didn't -- mind and they didn't do it. That I regard as opaque. The
:08:50. > :08:53.House of Lords have also been critical in their reports about the
:08:54. > :08:57.extent to which the Government has been sufficiently transparent. So it
:08:58. > :09:06.is opaque. Is it opaque, have you not known what the Prime Minister is
:09:07. > :09:11.negotiating on? Well, I would hesitate to challenge Bill on the
:09:12. > :09:16.details. You would be. Yes I think broadly speaking we know what he is
:09:17. > :09:20.asking. I don't think it dawned on David Cameron until creptly that --
:09:21. > :09:27.recently that it could lead to withdrawal. I asked Vince Cable, who
:09:28. > :09:32.is a very thoughtful man, how, what the chances of withdrawal were. He
:09:33. > :09:36.said if you asked me a year ago I would say 5%. Now I would stay about
:09:37. > :09:45.40%. That is quite a change. David Cameron is in favour of staying in.
:09:46. > :09:52.He has threatened exit. Do you think he would campaign for out. There is
:09:53. > :09:55.a point, at which when you realise that the things you have been
:09:56. > :09:58.seeking are simply not going to be accepted by the other member states,
:09:59. > :10:01.and this business of getting accepted by the other member states,
:10:02. > :10:05.treaty change is fundamental to that, if you can't get it through,
:10:06. > :10:09.before the referendum, and the only thing you can offer the voter is the
:10:10. > :10:15.fact that you have had an international agreement which itself
:10:16. > :10:20.according to the former legal advisor to the European council
:10:21. > :10:25.wouldn't be sufficient. Do you think bearing in mind there has been
:10:26. > :10:29.resistance on inward benefit do you think he would drop that idea. It
:10:30. > :10:33.looks like it in some shape or form. It is very much in the air at the
:10:34. > :10:37.moment. But one thing is certain, it has not just legal implications but
:10:38. > :10:42.it is political. The other member states, those countries in central
:10:43. > :10:47.and eastern Europe, they have called it a red line and that is where they
:10:48. > :10:52.are. They have no intention of allowing anything to get through.
:10:53. > :10:56.That is what people say in negotiation. Do you think the Prime
:10:57. > :11:00.Minister's gamble about saying he could in a certain circumstances
:11:01. > :11:04.campaign for out is going to pay off in terms of pressure on the other
:11:05. > :11:09.states. First, I don't believe him. I think he is in favour. I don't
:11:10. > :11:13.think it dawned on him when he lit the fuse that is how it would end
:11:14. > :11:18.up. The consequences are far reaches if we did vote to come out, the
:11:19. > :11:21.Scots would demand another referendum and probably would vote
:11:22. > :11:27.to go. The Prime Minister may go down as the Prime Minister who pr
:11:28. > :11:29.presided over the break up of the United Kingdom I am sure is not what
:11:30. > :11:32.he wants. Thank you. Now, it's nearly two weeks
:11:33. > :11:35.since the House of Commons voted to extend British air strikes
:11:36. > :11:37.targeting the so-called Islamic State group
:11:38. > :11:38.from Iraq into Syria. But after the huge attention
:11:39. > :11:41.on the parliamentary debate, what action has the RAF actually
:11:42. > :11:44.been taking in the region? Well, once or twice a week
:11:45. > :11:47.the Ministry of Defence provides Here's what had happened
:11:48. > :11:52.up till last Friday. On the 2nd, 4th and 6th December,
:11:53. > :11:58.British Tornados flying from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus launched bombing
:11:59. > :12:03.raids against IS positions in Syria. The target on every occasion
:12:04. > :12:06.was infrastructure in the extensive The oil field is one of the key
:12:07. > :12:15.sources of revenue for IS. So far, there has been no RAF
:12:16. > :12:18.bombing of the IS stronghold of Raqqa or any other position
:12:19. > :12:22.in Syria, but RAF planes do fly routine reconnaissance
:12:23. > :12:27.missions in Syrian airspace. Last week the focus shifted back
:12:28. > :12:30.to Iraq, where British forces have been bombing IS targets
:12:31. > :12:35.for over a year. On 7th December a pair of RAF
:12:36. > :12:37.Tornados provided air support to Iraqi military operations
:12:38. > :12:43.against IS in western Ramadi. A day later, Tornados launched two
:12:44. > :12:49.Brimstone missile attacks on militants west of the city
:12:50. > :12:54.of Kayaruh with three IS machine gun positions bombed later
:12:55. > :12:56.that day north-east On 9th, support was provided
:12:57. > :12:59.to Kurdish soldiers fighting A guided bomb destroyed an IS mortar
:13:00. > :13:05.position near the settlement And three IS vehicles were destroyed
:13:06. > :13:09.in a Hellfire missile attack The RAF saw further action
:13:10. > :13:15.south-west of that town the following day,
:13:16. > :13:16.with IS-occupied buildings and vehicles destroyed,
:13:17. > :13:18.a mortar position eliminated, and a sniper killed
:13:19. > :13:25.with a guided bomb. Well we can talk now to the BBC's
:13:26. > :13:39.defence correspondent Even after all the debate, the media
:13:40. > :13:46.focus on Raqqa and such places, the bombings have been confined to one
:13:47. > :13:50.oil field. Yes, they have targeted the Omar oil field, they say it is
:13:51. > :13:53.essential, because it is the essential source of finning for the
:13:54. > :13:58.Islamic State -- funding for the Islamic State group and we have seen
:13:59. > :14:03.US planes doing a similar thing. They have updated their air strikes
:14:04. > :14:08.again today, the RAF, and they have been hitting again targets in
:14:09. > :14:13.northern Iraq and the fact is it is easier at the moment to go after
:14:14. > :14:19.targets in northern Iraq and Iraq itself, because there are security
:14:20. > :14:25.forces, there are clear boundaries between what are the friendly
:14:26. > :14:30.forces, the Iraqi security forces and the Peshmerga. The picture in
:14:31. > :14:34.Syria is more confusing and if you're talking about Raqqa and if
:14:35. > :14:38.you're going to go after what David Cameron calls the snake's head, that
:14:39. > :14:44.is more difficult, because that is to be with civilians living next
:14:45. > :14:51.door and possibly used as human shields. Is that it fear of civilian
:14:52. > :14:54.casualties or the lack of a moderate force on the ground stopping that
:14:55. > :15:05.extension to air strikes? The RAF claim they've not caused any
:15:06. > :15:09.civilian casualties so far. I think that's going to be difficult as the
:15:10. > :15:13.campaign... There are undoubtedly going to be civilian casualties to
:15:14. > :15:17.some extent. The definite Secretary has acknowledged that. Also if you
:15:18. > :15:20.haven't a clear army on the ground, a unified group fighting who can
:15:21. > :15:23.call in these air strikes, can tell you what's begun going on f you
:15:24. > :15:28.haven't your own forces on the ground in some way it's more
:15:29. > :15:31.difficult to target. A lot was mentioned about the Brimstone
:15:32. > :15:36.missile and why America wanted the RAF and Britain involvement in Syria
:15:37. > :15:41.because of the Brimstone, actually it hasn't been used at all so far in
:15:42. > :15:45.Syria. But in Iraq. Do we have reliable intelligence then that IS
:15:46. > :15:51.have actually felt the squeeze, they are feeling the pain from the
:15:52. > :15:55.bombing of their oil resources? I think the expectation is that this
:15:56. > :16:02.is one of the funding streams for Islamic State, the oil, it's not the
:16:03. > :16:05.only one, they extort money. They've money from various financial pots,
:16:06. > :16:11.including raiding banks and the likes. But it's not the only way you
:16:12. > :16:14.are going to defeat IS. In Iraq, of course, the key difference is the
:16:15. > :16:18.fact that there are forces on the ground who are working with the
:16:19. > :16:22.US-led coalition who may have individuals from that US-led
:16:23. > :16:25.coalition helping them on the ground, calling in these air strikes
:16:26. > :16:28.and you have not got that to such an extent in Syria. So that is the
:16:29. > :16:34.clear difference at the moment. Right. As you have explained, and
:16:35. > :16:38.outlined, northern Iraq is still the main theatre of operations for
:16:39. > :16:44.British air strikes. Has the campaign there over the last year
:16:45. > :16:47.had success? Yeah, we heard President Obama saying yesterday
:16:48. > :16:50.that he believed there was success in taking away territory from
:16:51. > :16:55.Islamic State, they've lost thousands of square miles in
:16:56. > :16:59.territory, we can see what's happening in Ramadi at the moment,
:17:00. > :17:06.IS is being pushed, they've been holding that city for a long time,
:17:07. > :17:11.but they are being strangleholds. The noose is tightening there at the
:17:12. > :17:14.moment. The key strategy, has been according to President Obama and
:17:15. > :17:17.David Cameron, going after the leadership of Islamic State and
:17:18. > :17:21.they've carried out targeted air strikes against individuals, they've
:17:22. > :17:28.taken out high-profile names. But, we haven't seen that by the RAF in
:17:29. > :17:31.Raqqa, for example, so far. These, of course early days, two weeks,
:17:32. > :17:36.less than two weeks since the vote was approved in parliament. You
:17:37. > :17:42.talked about the complications in Syria, it's a more complicated
:17:43. > :17:47.situation. That's because the skies are very crowded with lots of air
:17:48. > :17:49.forces operating. How is the relationship, if you can call it
:17:50. > :17:54.that, with Russia? Has relationship, if you can call it
:17:55. > :17:59.operational understanding at least f not a political one? Yeah, they have
:18:00. > :18:05.that horrible word deconflicted, they have talked to each other to
:18:06. > :18:08.make sure there are not going to be mid-air collisions, the sort of
:18:09. > :18:12.incident which was essentially about crossing a boundary, the Turks
:18:13. > :18:16.shooting down a Russian warplane, that's the kind of thing they're
:18:17. > :18:21.desperate to avoid. There is a clear understanding, I think. That's not
:18:22. > :18:24.their biggest worry. I think the hardest thing is targeting, getting
:18:25. > :18:29.clear targets in Syria at the moment. The numbers at the moment
:18:30. > :18:35.are stacked in much more targeting going on in Iraq than in Syria. And
:18:36. > :18:39.you have to remember also that the British contribution is, even though
:18:40. > :18:44.it's been doubled in the number of warplanes that have been sent since
:18:45. > :18:49.that vote, the British County Councils is small. For example, the
:18:50. > :18:56.RAF totally has carried out about 400 air strikes. -- contribution.
:18:57. > :19:01.The US has carried conducted about nearly 9,000 air strikes. A lot of
:19:02. > :19:04.these missions, they are flying over Iraq or Syria, carrying out
:19:05. > :19:08.surveillance, are not using their weapons at all. Essentially in the
:19:09. > :19:12.past year for the RAF we have seen about one in four missions have been
:19:13. > :19:16.resulting in an air strike. That's a small proportion. Thank you very
:19:17. > :19:20.much. We bid for someone from the MoD to
:19:21. > :19:23.come on to the programme but none were available.
:19:24. > :19:25.Now let's talk about the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn.
:19:26. > :19:29.My guest of the day, Chris Mullin, is a former colleague of Mr Corbyn,
:19:30. > :19:31.shares a lot of his politics and is altogether something
:19:32. > :19:37.Here he is talking about Mr Corbyn when he was elected,
:19:38. > :19:47.If you run into him on a train as I have done, he will immediately get
:19:48. > :19:50.out of his box of sandwiches which are verying tearian, of course and
:19:51. > :19:54.cut them in half. He is a good man. The serious point is this, do you
:19:55. > :20:01.think if he does become leader of the opposition, do you see him as
:20:02. > :20:07.electable, as a Prime Minister? It's unlikely, frankly.
:20:08. > :20:11.Do you still feel that? Well, I think we are on - Jeremy is
:20:12. > :20:16.certainly on a learning curve. We are all on a learning curve here. We
:20:17. > :20:19.are in unknown territory. I feel that electing Jeremy was a high risk
:20:20. > :20:24.strategy on the part of the Labour Party. But I think he needs to be
:20:25. > :20:27.given a reasonable period to show what he can do and I don't think the
:20:28. > :20:31.short time he has had so far and some of the misbehaviour that's
:20:32. > :20:35.occurred amounts to a reasonable period. We are more than four years
:20:36. > :20:39.away from a general election, in two years' time perhaps that will be a
:20:40. > :20:43.time to assess. But it was only a few months ago you didn't think he
:20:44. > :20:47.would be electable as Prime Minister. What makes you think now
:20:48. > :20:51.he might be? He must be given a chance that's all I am saying. I am
:20:52. > :20:56.not going to go around slagging him off as some people have done. He has
:20:57. > :20:59.in some respects done better than expected, at Prime Minister's
:21:00. > :21:02.questions he often holds his own. I think what the Labour Party as a
:21:03. > :21:05.whole has to do, if he wants to stand a chance of winning the next
:21:06. > :21:10.election, is address the nation and not each other. They're still at the
:21:11. > :21:14.stage of addressing each other at the moment and they shouldn't,
:21:15. > :21:18.individual MPs have been collaborating with the Murdoch press
:21:19. > :21:22.and they shouldn't be. Who is misbehaving along those sort of
:21:23. > :21:28.lines? Well, you can pay your money, take your choice. But I saw one
:21:29. > :21:32.today, I think, in a newspaper saying she would stab Jeremy not in
:21:33. > :21:38.the back but in the front, should the need arise. I think that's a
:21:39. > :21:42.very foolish thing to say. They really need to start pointing their
:21:43. > :21:47.guns outward at the enemy. The public do not vote for divided
:21:48. > :21:52.parties. Jeremy is sa saintly decent man who has led a life that reflects
:21:53. > :21:58.his principles and deserves to be given a chance. He ares rebelled. He
:21:59. > :22:04.was a serious rebel and that makes it difficult to demand it now. He is
:22:05. > :22:10.entitled however, to be taken seriously for and given a chance.
:22:11. > :22:13.Right. You mentioned the Labour MP Jess Phillips, I think we can hear
:22:14. > :22:19.what she had to say using the words that you just mentioned there. I
:22:20. > :22:23.would do anything that I felt was going to make the Labour Party win
:22:24. > :22:27.the next election because if I don't have that attitude all I am doing is
:22:28. > :22:30.colluding with the Tories. That's making Jeremy better, I will roll my
:22:31. > :22:36.sleeves up, if that's not going to happen, and I have said that to him
:22:37. > :22:39.and to his staff, the day that it becomes that you are hurting us more
:22:40. > :22:43.than you are helping us, I won't knife new the back, I will knife you
:22:44. > :22:46.in the front. You didn't like her words there but actually put into
:22:47. > :22:50.context what she's saying, being honest about her view there. The
:22:51. > :22:56.great difficulty is our free press does not put things into context and
:22:57. > :23:01.what will be quoted is that last couple of sentences. You learn after
:23:02. > :23:05.a while, I mean, it took me a while to learn this, but you really have
:23:06. > :23:09.to point your guns outwards and address the nation and not each
:23:10. > :23:16.other. Are both sides guilty of that? As you know, both sides have
:23:17. > :23:20.been briefing furiously about abuse being flung at Jeremy Corbyn and
:23:21. > :23:24.abuse being flung at people that would describe themselves as
:23:25. > :23:31.moderate Labour MPs rightly or wrongly? I am sure there have been
:23:32. > :23:36.offenders on both sides, not Jeremy himself who maintain as great deal
:23:37. > :23:41.of equimity in provocation I would say. Do you think he should have
:23:42. > :23:45.reached out more across the parliamentary party when formulating
:23:46. > :23:50.his shadow Cabinet? He has to some extent, but he could have done more.
:23:51. > :23:53.All the talk about reshuffling the Shadow Cabinet so that he can mould
:23:54. > :23:58.the Shadow Cabinet in his image more, do you think that's going to
:23:59. > :24:03.alienate or bring people together? It can only work with those who are
:24:04. > :24:09.willing to work with him. One of the first things that happened was a
:24:10. > :24:13.number of people who were potential Shadow Cabinet material took their
:24:14. > :24:16.ball away and said they weren't going to play. Then some of the same
:24:17. > :24:22.people protesting that the balance in the Shadow Cabinet was unfair.
:24:23. > :24:27.You can't have it both say -- both ways. My advice to anyone is to pull
:24:28. > :24:34.together, you are all in the same team. That's what the electorate
:24:35. > :24:39.expect. Do you think it was provocative to have Ken Livingstone
:24:40. > :24:44.as co-convener of the defense review when there was a Shadow Defence
:24:45. > :24:54.Secretary? Well, I am sure that both Ken and the Shadow Defence Secretary
:24:55. > :24:57.are mature enough to work out a modus, the triedent issue is
:24:58. > :25:03.difficult in the world of politics, I think only the Tory Party could
:25:04. > :25:08.get rid of a nuclear missile system, it is bonkers spending ?30 billion
:25:09. > :25:11.on this redundant missile system. In the world of practical politics I
:25:12. > :25:14.don't think Labour could get away with it. What it will have to do
:25:15. > :25:21.when the vote comes is allow another free vote. Should Ken Livingstone be
:25:22. > :25:26.made a peer? Oh, God, that's not in my... That's way above my pay grade.
:25:27. > :25:31.That was the talk so he could put in the Shadow Cabinet. It has been
:25:32. > :25:35.dismissed. As you say, if there isn't a big pull for Jeremy Corbyn
:25:36. > :25:39.to pick his team come in the future that's what he might have do to do.
:25:40. > :25:42.Let's deal with Ken Livingstone. He is the most, without exception,
:25:43. > :25:46.successful left-wing politician possibly in the history of the
:25:47. > :25:50.Labour Party. He governed London one way or another for 16 years in
:25:51. > :25:57.power, in office. And quite a lot of the things, I said left-wing, I
:25:58. > :26:02.don't think Tony Blair would claim to be particularly left-wing. I
:26:03. > :26:05.don't mean to disparage him. Of the left-wing politicians most have
:26:06. > :26:10.never had office of any sort. But Ken has been in office for 16 years
:26:11. > :26:16.one way or another actually quite a lot of the things he did on gays,
:26:17. > :26:19.talking to Sinn Fein, and introducing a decent public
:26:20. > :26:24.transport system in London, he demonstrated he can deliver. I think
:26:25. > :26:27.it will be wise of Jeremy, Ken can be a loose cannon, we all know that
:26:28. > :26:32.too and preferable if he wasn't too much of a loose cannon, but I think
:26:33. > :26:35.he has something to contribute and don't blame Jeremy at all, if it's
:26:36. > :26:37.from the House of Lords or wherever, I have no strong feelings within way
:26:38. > :26:45.or another about that. Right. Now our guest of the day here,
:26:46. > :26:48.Chris Mullin, has a suggestion for how Labour can win
:26:49. > :26:50.the next general election. He's recently told
:26:51. > :26:51.the New Statesman magazine: There's one thing I think Labour
:26:52. > :26:54.are going to have to do if we are to stand any chance
:26:55. > :26:57.of defeating the Tories next time. We are going to need
:26:58. > :27:00.all the non-Tory voters we can find. Labour urgently needs
:27:01. > :27:03.a Lib Dem revival. The Lib Dems can win seats in parts
:27:04. > :27:06.of the country we can't. Jeremy needs to be thinking
:27:07. > :27:12.about an electoral pact In a list of key marginals,
:27:13. > :27:18.there needs to be just Well, one politician who'd long
:27:19. > :27:22.talked of a left-leaning pact is the former Lib Dem MP
:27:23. > :27:32.and coalition Minister Vince Cable. Do you agree with that thesis? Well,
:27:33. > :27:36.with qualifications, if there is going to be a breakthrough as
:27:37. > :27:40.happened in 19197 and the subsequent elections, it will be on the basis
:27:41. > :27:43.that there is some common understanding by the Tory opponents,
:27:44. > :27:47.we are in danger of getting a one-party state. But the
:27:48. > :27:51.qualifications are very important. The opposition parties have to make
:27:52. > :27:56.a common offer to the public. The public have to agree with them. One
:27:57. > :28:01.thing we shouldn't forget is at the last election the Tories got in with
:28:02. > :28:05.37% of the vote but a Tory splinter group, which is Ukip, also did well
:28:06. > :28:08.and between them they got a majority. So we did have a
:28:09. > :28:12.right-wing majority. You can't change that. Tactical manoeuvring
:28:13. > :28:14.doesn't solve that problem. Where is your evidence, either of you, that
:28:15. > :28:18.even if Jeremy Corbyn won over your evidence, either of you, that
:28:19. > :28:22.the left-wing votes, for example, or if there was a sort of shared
:28:23. > :28:26.platform with Greens and Lib Dems, that it would be enough to win a
:28:27. > :28:31.general election? It wouldn't, for the reasons I have given. What Chris
:28:32. > :28:33.said earlier, which is important, is we have to address the public. The
:28:34. > :28:37.tragedy of what's happening in the Labour Party is that it's a sort of
:28:38. > :28:42.inward looking conversation. Until they resolve that issue with their
:28:43. > :28:46.own leader and people accept him or change him, there isn't an outward
:28:47. > :28:51.looking proposition that people can rally to. Would you be in favour of
:28:52. > :28:54.that sort of left-wing coalition with Jeremy Corbyn at the head or
:28:55. > :28:59.would it be better without him? I think it would be easier with
:29:00. > :29:03.someone else, given his history. As you know, in my own seat I lost
:29:04. > :29:06.because a lot of what we used to call soft Tory voters were so
:29:07. > :29:11.alarmed by the prospect of Ed Miliband and the SNP they went to
:29:12. > :29:15.the Tories. Jeremy Corbyn would be even less appealing to that
:29:16. > :29:19.particular group. So your thesis falls down at that point if people
:29:20. > :29:24.like Vince Cable couldn't see themselves part of a left-wing
:29:25. > :29:28.coalition under someone like Jeremy. Vince's first point is the right
:29:29. > :29:34.one, the parties would have to make a common offer. Aspiring to be in
:29:35. > :29:37.Government involves compromise and compromises would have to be made on
:29:38. > :29:41.all sides. The Lib Dems recently emerged from a coalition with the
:29:42. > :29:47.Conservatives and they had to make compromises there. That was because
:29:48. > :29:51.they felt they could work together. They weren't sure about Gordon
:29:52. > :29:55.Brown. They had to swallow quite hard and this will be a compromise,
:29:56. > :30:03.I think it's one that should be more appealing to potential Lib Dem
:30:04. > :30:07.voters. Is History is getting wonky here. We would have worked with
:30:08. > :30:12.Gordon Brown, it wasn't a preference for the Tories that got us into the
:30:13. > :30:16.coalition, it was political reality. Both sides did say that there would
:30:17. > :30:20.be a better working relationship, they felt with Nick Clegg and David
:30:21. > :30:25.Cameron. In terms of history, if you were to take the left-wing coalition
:30:26. > :30:31.as you both broadly outlined wouldn't it just result in Labour
:30:32. > :30:35.increasing its vote and share of the seats it already holds?
:30:36. > :30:44.We are getting ahead of ourselves. You've to build. You have to start
:30:45. > :30:48.by getting the public to accept that continued Conservative dominance is
:30:49. > :30:52.doing harm to the country. That is the first negative story and you
:30:53. > :30:56.have got to have something positive to offer instead and then you look
:30:57. > :31:06.for common ground. And you have got to involve your act vifss on the --
:31:07. > :31:10.act ivists on the ground. The piece you have written seems to concede
:31:11. > :31:14.that Labour can't win an election on its own. I think that is right for
:31:15. > :31:19.the foreseeable future, because of the loss of Scotland. I don't see it
:31:20. > :31:24.coming back. Do you think it is just because of the loss of Scotland. I
:31:25. > :31:30.wouldn't call this a left-wing coalition, I would call it a
:31:31. > :31:39.non-Tory coalition. What about Ukip being part of it, in some of the
:31:40. > :31:45.seats you need to win, the Ukip voters are the ones you want to win
:31:46. > :31:52.back. Ukip is a bit of a one man band and we find it fades. They have
:31:53. > :31:57.got a lot of votes. They did, but personally they're not a force I
:31:58. > :32:02.feel we could be aligned to. You talked about Scotland being the
:32:03. > :32:05.problem, the losses in Scotland, you still haven't addressed or given me
:32:06. > :32:08.evidence to show that the sort of thing you're talking about would win
:32:09. > :32:12.over Tory seats, which is what you need to do if you're going to win
:32:13. > :32:17.the general election. The liberals used to hold three seats in
:32:18. > :32:22.Cornwall. There was never a slightest chance of Labour ever
:32:23. > :32:28.holding those. They are at a low base and I would expect them to go
:32:29. > :32:34.up. There is a fundamental problem with that too, again a non-Tory
:32:35. > :32:39.coalition of one you are outlining, how are Liberal Democrats going to
:32:40. > :32:44.win back those former marginals on that basis? In 97 when the big
:32:45. > :32:50.political break through occurred of last generation, it was because of
:32:51. > :32:53.tactical voting. There was no formal pact, but an understanding that the
:32:54. > :32:59.era of Tory government had gone and we wanted something knew and it was
:33:00. > :33:08.assumed Blair would be Prime Minister. A lot seats voted for us
:33:09. > :33:12.comfortable with the fact that a Labour or Labour/Liberal Democrat
:33:13. > :33:16.Government would emerge. Until we can re-create that political
:33:17. > :33:22.environment and that means winning the political debate we are not
:33:23. > :33:26.going to progress. The present Tory government is laying waste to public
:33:27. > :33:32.sector. Eventually the public will notice and that will pay some
:33:33. > :33:38.dividends in terms of votes. Is this the start of political pact between
:33:39. > :33:43.you two? What needs to happen we need to talk to each other. There
:33:44. > :33:46.has been vicious tribal argument on what I would call the left from my
:33:47. > :33:50.party through Labour and other groups. We need to talk to each
:33:51. > :33:54.other and co-operate on particular issues. You're both welcome any time
:33:55. > :33:57.to chat. Thank you. Now at May's general election
:33:58. > :33:59.the Conservatives had their best results in Wales for more than 30
:34:00. > :34:03.years, and the party will be under pressure to repeat its success
:34:04. > :34:05.at next year's elections But it's Labour that is still
:34:06. > :34:08.Wales's dominant party, controlling the Assembly in Cardiff
:34:09. > :34:11.and getting the biggest share The Tories are hoping that an offer
:34:12. > :34:16.of lower income taxes in Wales, using powers that are set to be
:34:17. > :34:19.devolved, could give them a boost. Here's George Osborne making
:34:20. > :34:32.the announcement in last For years Wales has asked for a
:34:33. > :34:37.funding floor to protect spending there and now within months of
:34:38. > :34:40.coming to office, this Conservative Government is answering that call
:34:41. > :34:48.and providing that historic funding guarantee for Wales. I can announce
:34:49. > :34:55.we will introduce the new funding floor and sit it at 115%. The Welsh
:34:56. > :34:59.Secretary and I will legislate so the devolution of income tax can
:35:00. > :35:03.take place without a referendum. George Osborne there.
:35:04. > :35:05.Well, we're joined now by the leader of the Welsh Conservatives,
:35:06. > :35:20.You want to take 5% off the higher rate of tax. That could cost ?255
:35:21. > :35:26.million in Welsh revenue. How would you pay for it It is not taking it
:35:27. > :35:29.off. The tax base would grow and bring entrepreneurs into Wales. Two
:35:30. > :35:35.things we have identified so far that we wouldn't do what Labour are
:35:36. > :35:42.doing, is free prescriptions. 40% taxpayers pay for free prescriptions
:35:43. > :35:49.that would save ?40 million. Also tuition fees, Welsh students are
:35:50. > :35:56.subsidised to a tune of ?3,6 hundred and they can take the grant and go
:35:57. > :36:11.anywhere in the United Kingdom. That is a loss of ?7 ?70 million.
:36:12. > :36:16.Importantly this can aprabgt entrepreneurs -- attract
:36:17. > :36:22.entrepreneurs to Wales. This would only reduce bills by up to ?400, is
:36:23. > :36:27.that enough to attract people to Wales? It could start the process of
:36:28. > :36:31.showing Wales is open for business and sends a positive message that
:36:32. > :36:35.you have a Welsh Conservative Government that believes the best
:36:36. > :36:37.people to spend the money are the people themselves and we are more
:36:38. > :36:43.competitive than other parts of United Kingdom. What we don't have
:36:44. > :36:48.are enough entrepreneurs developing a large private sector to create
:36:49. > :36:52.quality take home pay. You think that would shift business investment
:36:53. > :37:05.in Wales, to justify your income tax changes. But how popular is the
:37:06. > :37:08.policy, the Welsh political Politics Showed is support for income tax
:37:09. > :37:11.devolution is weakest among Conservative supporters in Wales.
:37:12. > :37:15.Because there is a fear what Labour and the others would do with the
:37:16. > :37:19.powers, they have indicated they would increase taxation and we would
:37:20. > :37:26.be opening up the political narrative. At the moment the
:37:27. > :37:31.Assembly and the Government have no means to raise revenue. Now the
:37:32. > :37:39.political debate and argument will move into game-changer mode and the
:37:40. > :37:46.politicians you will eexpect will be delving into rour purses, for the
:37:47. > :37:51.first time. You campaigned on improving public services, how do
:37:52. > :37:56.you do that and cut taxes. You increase the tax base, because you
:37:57. > :38:00.get more people earning more money. It is depends which part of the
:38:01. > :38:04.political spectrum you come from. The left believe you take more of
:38:05. > :38:10.people's income, the right believe you leave wit people to spend. Do
:38:11. > :38:19.you think by cutting income tax you can still improve public services?
:38:20. > :38:23.If I was Welsh I would be sceptical. It is dangerous to get into a
:38:24. > :38:27.bidding war over income tax. When Margaret Thatcher left office the
:38:28. > :38:34.basic rate of income tax and that is the fairest way to raise public
:38:35. > :38:40.money, was 26 pence in the pound. After eleven years of Margaret
:38:41. > :38:46.Thatcher. This gentleman is talking about putting down to 19 pence. If
:38:47. > :38:53.you want to see a collapse of public services this is the way to do it.
:38:54. > :38:56.Public services under Labour have been criticised, admittedly by the
:38:57. > :39:01.Tory government, but they have been criticised and there is a lot of
:39:02. > :39:04.evidence to support what the Conservatives have said,
:39:05. > :39:08.particularly on health. I think under this government if they
:39:09. > :39:14.continue down this road and may might not, you can expect all
:39:15. > :39:22.nonstatutory public services to more or less collapse within the next
:39:23. > :39:25.five or six years. That shows a lack of understanding of the devolution
:39:26. > :39:31.settlement. And what is going on in Wales. Ultimately the government in
:39:32. > :39:38.Wales, not just by political parties, but by independent think
:39:39. > :39:42.tanks, this is a Labour Party that in power since 1999 and whether you
:39:43. > :39:47.take independent analysis or political analysis, Labour have
:39:48. > :39:53.failed to deliver for Wales. Except they still keep being voted back in.
:39:54. > :39:57.On a smaller part of vote. Let's go back to income tax, because most
:39:58. > :40:05.income tax in Wales is paid by the earners in the lower tax bands. You
:40:06. > :40:08.will give a bigger reduction to those on higher incomes, that is how
:40:09. > :40:11.it would work out, so they will benefit from the cut on the lore
:40:12. > :40:17.band and the higher band and benefit twice. It is about the Welsh
:40:18. > :40:24.Treasury being able to afford this. If you look at the 40% tax rate u
:40:25. > :40:28.you're talking of a hit of about 12 to 15 million. If you talk of the
:40:29. > :40:35.basic rate you have to find between 150 and 170 million. So we have
:40:36. > :40:41.costed what we can do and invested in public services and delivering a
:40:42. > :40:47.better state that gets the waiting list down and lifts education
:40:48. > :40:52.standards to get better standards across the board. Thank you.
:40:53. > :40:54.Theresa May is now the longest-serving Home Secretary
:40:55. > :40:56.since Henry Matthews in 1892, overtaking Rab Butler's 2,007-day
:40:57. > :41:03.She's survived what's meant to be one of the trickiest jobs
:41:04. > :41:06.in the Cabinet, and is spoken of as a possible contender for next
:41:07. > :41:13.Giles has been looking into the secret of her success.
:41:14. > :41:24.Home Secretary Theresa May knows the drill. In the wake of the Paris
:41:25. > :41:26.attacks, she was on the BBC, comfortable, reassuring the public.
:41:27. > :41:31.It is the kind of confidence that comes with knowing the job and doing
:41:32. > :41:36.it longer than anyone in modern politics. Inside the Home Office are
:41:37. > :41:39.portraits of those who have been Home Secretary in the past and only
:41:40. > :41:45.one has gone on to be Prime Minister. But the current incumbent
:41:46. > :41:50.is the longest serving Home Secretary since the Second World
:41:51. > :41:54.War. That is quite an achievement, given the job dents reputations
:41:55. > :42:01.rather than makes them. Jack Straw said when he went into it he was
:42:02. > :42:09.advised by a previous Conservative Home Secretary in the words, Jack,
:42:10. > :42:14.somewhere in that department every day, in some corner is somebody
:42:15. > :42:21.doing something that can ruin your whole career. I think that is...
:42:22. > :42:27.Probably pretty accurate. Everybody makes mistakes. We are all fallible
:42:28. > :42:31.human beings. If you're in another department, there is a reasonable
:42:32. > :42:37.chance that the mistake you make will be in some dark hidden corner
:42:38. > :42:40.when no one is looking. There are no dark hidden corners in the Home
:42:41. > :42:45.Office. I would give you the powers... Theresa May is not perfect
:42:46. > :42:52.and for some hasn't always got it right. Stand by your vision... She
:42:53. > :43:01.upset the police federation and nearly didn't and couldn't depart
:43:02. > :43:07.Abu Qatada. ImGriggs But he has endured. If you look at the list of
:43:08. > :43:14.things she has done, it is actually liberal. You have modern slavery
:43:15. > :43:21.bill and scrapped ID cards and she is the first Home Secretary that we
:43:22. > :43:27.can do business can according to The Voice, a leader black newspaper. For
:43:28. > :43:31.a Tory to have that reputation, her moves on stop and search, she is
:43:32. > :43:35.very hard to pin point down. That is one of her quality and why she
:43:36. > :43:42.survives, you can't put her in a box. It is either every day sexism
:43:43. > :43:46.or a political truth that being the most senior woman in government may
:43:47. > :43:49.have helped her secure her place in a cabinet with a Prime Minister
:43:50. > :43:54.often accused of having a woman problem. The first woman to do the
:43:55. > :43:59.job is generous in her appraisal. She is effective in the job that she
:44:00. > :44:05.does. From everything I hear very hard working. It is a slight
:44:06. > :44:11.function I think of the little double standards that happens at the
:44:12. > :44:18.start of Parliament that she got away with some things, but good luck
:44:19. > :44:22.to her. And I think you know I have every respect for the length of time
:44:23. > :44:27.that she has done it and for some of changes she has made as well. There
:44:28. > :44:32.seems no immediate threat of Theresa May leaving the Home Office. The
:44:33. > :44:35.only question everyone are asking, is this a sight she might like us to
:44:36. > :44:43.get used to in the future? We're joined now by
:44:44. > :44:52.the Conservative MP Peter Bone. What do you think is the secret of
:44:53. > :44:56.her success? She's extraordinarily good, to survive for that length of
:44:57. > :44:59.time is remarkable. Success in staying that long, not necessarily
:45:00. > :45:04.her record as Home Secretary. If you looked at what was said in the clip,
:45:05. > :45:07.it's difficult to pin her down. I was involved in the modern slavery
:45:08. > :45:11.bill, absolutely right thing to do, people will say that's from the
:45:12. > :45:16.left. She's very tough on immigration. And I would argue the
:45:17. > :45:20.EU Tough on immigration, but net migration figures have Soared. The
:45:21. > :45:28.Tory Party has utterly failed on that. Absolutely the Government's
:45:29. > :45:31.failed on it and it's... A lot of people believe if she was let free
:45:32. > :45:36.from what she wants to do, she would solve the problem. You think she is
:45:37. > :45:39.being hampered by the leadership on that particular issue, it's nothing
:45:40. > :45:46.to do with her? They will say, that's your area and you have
:45:47. > :45:51.failed. No, but you can't, for instance, say you want to reform the
:45:52. > :45:55.European Court of Human Rights or you want to cut down the number of
:45:56. > :46:01.immigrants without having collective support of the Government. She's
:46:02. > :46:06.made so many hints and I think, you touched on it at the end, she's
:46:07. > :46:10.clearly a very credible candidate to be the next Prime Minister when this
:46:11. > :46:13.one has clearly said he will retire sometime before the end of this
:46:14. > :46:22.parliament Rather than George Osborne? He is clearly a credible
:46:23. > :46:26.candidate but if you ask me who attracts more, I would say perhaps
:46:27. > :46:29.she does at the moment. They're both talented people and can be Prime
:46:30. > :46:34.Minister, of course. You would rather it was Theresa May? I don't
:46:35. > :46:37.think I said that. No, I am asking. I said she would, there is clearly a
:46:38. > :46:40.number of Conservative colleagues who would be very good Prime
:46:41. > :46:45.Ministers but Theresa May, someone who has held that office of state
:46:46. > :46:48.for so long and done such a good job clearly has the right to be
:46:49. > :46:51.considered as the next Prime Minister. Right. She certainly
:46:52. > :46:54.succeeded where Labour Home Secretaries have failed and that's
:46:55. > :46:58.to stay in the job for a substantial length of time. There were so many
:46:59. > :47:02.of them. Clearly over a fairly long period of time. Jack Straw was there
:47:03. > :47:06.four years and he was a successful Home Secretary. Yes, you are right.
:47:07. > :47:09.If you go and see the Home Secretary as I have done from time to time,
:47:10. > :47:13.there are pictures down the corridor and back up the other side...
:47:14. > :47:17.They've run out of space! You have forgotten who they are.
:47:18. > :47:24.Extraordinary list of people since the war. One of the sensible things
:47:25. > :47:26.Cameron has done is not have reshuffles and that's the habit
:47:27. > :47:30.Labour and I think the reshuffles and that's the habit
:47:31. > :47:32.Government got into and that was destabilising for Government, you
:47:33. > :47:36.can only make a difference if you are left somewhere, you make
:47:37. > :47:39.mistakes at first, of course you do, if you are left somewhere long
:47:40. > :47:43.enough to make a difference and she is a very formidable woman and yes,
:47:44. > :47:47.she's done very well. Right. Done very well do you think from a policy
:47:48. > :47:53.perspective too? Harry Coal in that film said his assessment is she's
:47:54. > :47:59.quite liberal having wons been described as really hardline in many
:48:00. > :48:03.ways, since liberal on things like stop and search, for example, and
:48:04. > :48:11.there were too many white police forces in England and Wales. I don't
:48:12. > :48:13.see her as a liberal Home Secretary, she did take on the Police
:48:14. > :48:18.Federation and she faced them down and I have been waiting for a long
:48:19. > :48:22.time for a Home Secretary to do that. Yes, on this immigration
:48:23. > :48:27.business I bet she's been hinting that leave it to her and she could
:48:28. > :48:34.solve the problem because she wants the votes of people like Peter Bone
:48:35. > :48:39.and others. It's a huge change going on in the world in terms of
:48:40. > :48:43.migration. It's difficult. Maybe that's one of the, I think that will
:48:44. > :48:47.be one of the tests for candidates if we are talking about future
:48:48. > :48:53.leadership, which way they go on the EU issue. I would think Theresa May
:48:54. > :48:57.will maybe on the out campaign. You are a fortress Britain man? I am for
:48:58. > :49:01.Britain in the world leading, not stuck in this European superstate of
:49:02. > :49:07.backward looking countries. Would you like Theresa May to lead the out
:49:08. > :49:11.campaign? The out campaign is a cross-party thing, there is going to
:49:12. > :49:15.be no single leader. What about for the Tory side? You have just said
:49:16. > :49:18.how strong she is. Doesn't have to continue. The person I would like to
:49:19. > :49:21.lead from the Conservative is the Prime Minister when he realises he
:49:22. > :49:26.can't get what he wants and he has hinted that's what he might do. I
:49:27. > :49:29.want as many Secretary of States on the out campaign or leave side as
:49:30. > :49:34.possible. I would have thought Theresa May is a possible one. Do
:49:35. > :49:38.you see her as a future leader of the Conservative Party? Well, she is
:49:39. > :49:43.certainly a candidate as Peter says. I think at the moment if the economy
:49:44. > :49:49.continues to go in the way that it's going, it's likely to be George
:49:50. > :49:54.Osborne. Well, you know, the economy can go either way at any time. You
:49:55. > :49:58.can't rely - of course, we might have our second woman Prime Minister
:49:59. > :50:02.again from the Conservatives. You know, it's a very interesting game.
:50:03. > :50:06.But clearly she's done a very good job as Home Secretary. I think she's
:50:07. > :50:07.got a lot of support, not only inside parliament but across the
:50:08. > :50:12.country. Peter bone, thank you. Now there are two big galactic
:50:13. > :50:15.events happening this week that have The first is the launch
:50:16. > :50:18.of the the rocket carrying Briton Tim Peake on his landmark
:50:19. > :50:21.flight to the International Space Everyone was watching,
:50:22. > :50:24.including the Prime Minister. Here he is, watching the launch
:50:25. > :50:29.on the TV at Number 10 about an hour ago, and he tweeted: It was great
:50:30. > :50:32.to watch Tim Peake blast off But, of course, the big political
:50:33. > :50:40.event of the week is on Thursday with the UK release
:50:41. > :50:42.of the new Star Wars film. If you can't see the subtle
:50:43. > :50:46.political messages in a story about an elite group of Jedi Knights
:50:47. > :50:49.helping an idealistic Rebel Alliance fight against a totalitarian
:50:50. > :50:51.Galactic Empire - then there's Let's have a look at what we can
:50:52. > :50:56.expect from Star Wars: The force is strong in my family. My
:50:57. > :51:18.father has it. I have it. My sister has it.
:51:19. > :51:29.I have my tickets already. So that was a snippet
:51:30. > :51:32.of the new Star Wars film which had its world premiere
:51:33. > :51:34.in America last night. It's due to have its premiere
:51:35. > :51:37.here in London tomorrow before it goes on general release
:51:38. > :51:39.across the UK and is tipped to break Well, fans of the franchise
:51:40. > :51:44.will debate most things it seems, and that even extends to discussing
:51:45. > :51:48.whether the Star Wars universe We're joined by Stephen Bush
:51:49. > :51:54.from the New Statesman, who thinks that the film
:51:55. > :51:57.is a confirmation of the left-wing values of solidarity
:51:58. > :51:58.and collective action. And we're also joined
:51:59. > :52:07.by the journalist James Delingpole, Surprise, surprise! Welcome to both
:52:08. > :52:11.of you. So you can obviously see the political side of this. What is the
:52:12. > :52:16.message behind Star Wars? Well, it depends on which set of the six
:52:17. > :52:20.films you take. In the first of the three the Jedi are an elite group
:52:21. > :52:24.who try and fail to prevent the rise of the dark side. In the original
:52:25. > :52:34.you effectively have a cross-coalition, on the one hand the
:52:35. > :52:40.elite Jedi, and then small traders and the Ewoks who rise up against
:52:41. > :52:46.what is clearly a kind of quasi-fasistic empire. You look at
:52:47. > :52:49.the Storm Troopers and I think see where people think that's a cult and
:52:50. > :52:53.the heros are left-wing Everyone wants to claim Star Wars for
:52:54. > :53:02.themselves, everyone wants to project their own ideology on the
:53:03. > :53:06.film. Can I just say I concede Ja Ja, I think he is what would happen
:53:07. > :53:12.if Jeremy Corbyn was in charge. He is sort of the person who would be
:53:13. > :53:15.overpromoted in the Labour world. Generally, I think it's pretty
:53:16. > :53:22.obvious that the rebels, I am not going to talk about the more recent
:53:23. > :53:32.ones which I can't stand, but the in the early classic Star Wars I would
:53:33. > :53:37.say you were right on one thing, Hans and Chewbacca would be voting
:53:38. > :53:45.It's clear that the tyranny is the tyranny of the left, not the right.
:53:46. > :53:52.There is no way two characters which can do be against the free movement
:53:53. > :53:59.of Labour. Maybe they're Lib tearians but Ukip voters... Is that
:54:00. > :54:02.the key? Every successful left-wing movement in British history has been
:54:03. > :54:07.able to get swash-buckling heros over to their side. Let's think of
:54:08. > :54:13.who the politicians might represent. Obi, could that be Jeremy Corbyn? I
:54:14. > :54:19.think Jeremy Corbyn is more like, if you look at Pete are Curbing in the
:54:20. > :54:25.first film, that would be Jeremy Corbyn. I think Jabba is probably
:54:26. > :54:33.someone like Al Gore, making his money out of something like carbon
:54:34. > :54:37.credits. In the end who are the villains in terms of politically?
:54:38. > :54:41.Can you see the point that perhaps the Storm Troopers could be
:54:42. > :54:48.left-wing communists, Stalinists wanting everyone to be the same? No,
:54:49. > :54:54.because the Storm Troopers are cloned, which is a classic of the
:54:55. > :54:58.typical right-ling inherited privilege. They're not... The Jedi
:54:59. > :55:03.talk about inheritance, forces within families. This is something
:55:04. > :55:06.they passed on through generations and that is inherited one would
:55:07. > :55:10.associate with Conservatives or Tories. The classic Conservative
:55:11. > :55:15.position would be you shouldn't judge somebody even if they're a
:55:16. > :55:20.Princess or a poor farmer as Luke starts out. We don't judge people on
:55:21. > :55:23.their back combround. We judge them on behaviour. Do you think this is
:55:24. > :55:30.sad, this discussion about seeing politics in Star Wars? Well, I am
:55:31. > :55:35.way out of my departmenths here, I have never seep a Star Wars. I live
:55:36. > :55:40.in Northumberland and I notice it's coming to the Playhouse after
:55:41. > :55:43.Christmas, it's possible the Mullins will take a trip down there and
:55:44. > :55:46.after which I will be better informed. I can't promise we will do
:55:47. > :55:51.this argument again. Thank you very much. Enjoy the film.
:55:52. > :55:54.Now we may not have got the Daily Politics Christmas Tree up yet.
:55:55. > :55:56.It's still in the cupboard under Andrew's stairs.
:55:57. > :55:58.But that's not because we lack the festive spirit -
:55:59. > :56:00.perish the thought - it's just that for us,
:56:01. > :56:03.Christmas isn't marked by the start of Advent or mince pies appearing
:56:04. > :56:07.No, of course it's when we start to get Christmas cards
:56:08. > :56:10.Here's our traditional look through the best of this year's
:56:11. > :57:21.I have just realised that was us. Are you feeling festive as an MP?
:57:22. > :57:26.Did you start early on Christmas cards? I did. I start signing them
:57:27. > :57:30.on the train about beginning of November, batches of 100. One of the
:57:31. > :57:34.great joys of not being an MP any more is that I don't send so many as
:57:35. > :57:41.I used to. Did you like any of those? Yeah, there were some good
:57:42. > :57:50.ones there. Peter Bone's was good. Yes, with the grumpy face. I suspect
:57:51. > :57:57.a bit of Scrooge there. I did like the Corbyn one. Bus of the --
:57:58. > :58:06.because of the bikes. Yes. Should these cards reflect the politician
:58:07. > :58:10.and that does. I would say that's an idealogically Christmas card. What
:58:11. > :58:15.about David Cameron's? It looks as though it was taken in May, the day
:58:16. > :58:19.he walked back into Number 10 Downing Street. It's not very
:58:20. > :58:24.Christmassy. I don't blame him for sticking it up there but it isn't
:58:25. > :58:28.Christmassy. Right. Favourite Christmas cards from politicians,
:58:29. > :58:33.should they have families in, that used to be the trend, it's usually
:58:34. > :58:37.from a local school. A lot of them organise competitions in primary
:58:38. > :58:39.schools. Some very good ones. I am looking forward to getting mine from
:58:40. > :58:46.the Prime Minister and Jeremy Corbyn.
:58:47. > :58:49.Thank you to Chris for being our guest of the day.
:58:50. > :58:53.The 1.00pm news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:54. > :58:56.I'll be back at 11.30am tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage
:58:57. > :58:59.of the last Prime Minister's Questions of 2015, and I promise