:00:37. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:42.Thousands of junior doctors go on strike across England
:00:43. > :00:45.in their dispute over a new contract despite a last-minute plea
:00:46. > :00:50.from the Prime Minister to call off the action.
:00:51. > :00:53.At least ten people are dead, following another suspected suicide
:00:54. > :01:04.We'll have the latest. likely that the so-called
:01:05. > :01:07.MPs debate the Housing Bill - which ministers say will help
:01:08. > :01:09.thousands of young people get on the housing ladder.
:01:10. > :01:11.Labour say the plan could benefit foreign investors
:01:12. > :01:30.And should England have an official national anthem?
:01:31. > :01:40.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:41. > :01:42.of the programme today is the Times columnist,
:01:43. > :01:53.First, let's get the latest on the bomb attack in Istanbul.
:01:54. > :01:55.We can talk to our correspondent there,
:01:56. > :02:01.I can tell you that the Foreign Secretary, Philip
:02:02. > :02:09.Hammond, said the explosion in Istanbul hit a tourist area of the
:02:10. > :02:14.city. They are currently seeking to verify if any British nationals are
:02:15. > :02:19.involved and we will -- and they will update the House of Commons if
:02:20. > :02:31.there is more news in the next hour. Can you give us the latest? This is
:02:32. > :02:36.where a few hours earlier the Windows of building surrounded me
:02:37. > :02:40.were rattled. A number of tourists, including German tourists, according
:02:41. > :02:44.to the news agency, were killed. It is not believed at this point in
:02:45. > :02:49.time that British tourists were among those killed. We are still
:02:50. > :02:51.waiting for full information. The Turkish president has condemned this
:02:52. > :03:07.attack. Nobody then has yet actually claimed
:03:08. > :03:12.responsibility. These are officials in Turkey. It is not that many
:03:13. > :03:21.months after Ankara suffered the bomb attack which killed up to 100
:03:22. > :03:29.people. I think 97 people were killed in Ankara. That was carried
:03:30. > :03:34.out by Isis. No one is in doubt about that. This is a much smaller
:03:35. > :03:38.attack. There is speculation this is another kind of Islamist, or
:03:39. > :03:42.somebody freelancing. It could be Isis. They are under a lot of
:03:43. > :03:46.pressure was they have lost territory in Iraq and Syria. The
:03:47. > :03:51.Turkish authorities, after tolerating Isis for a long time have
:03:52. > :03:55.now thrown themselves into the fight against the so-called Islamic State.
:03:56. > :03:58.Though getting reports that Turkish authorities are trying to organise a
:03:59. > :04:08.new offensive with some of the proxy groups they help to run and fund
:04:09. > :04:16.inside Syria. It would not be surprising to learn that might have
:04:17. > :04:20.consequences here in Turkey. Do think Turkey will have more of these
:04:21. > :04:25.sorts of attacks, even though we do not know for sure who is behind this
:04:26. > :04:30.one? Turkey is playing a very complex game. As Paul said, they
:04:31. > :04:36.have backed Islamic State in the past and they are now against it.
:04:37. > :04:39.They are backing Islamist who are against President Assad in Syria.
:04:40. > :04:45.There is no shortage of people who might be inspired to attack Turkey
:04:46. > :04:50.for a whole variety of reasons on the grounds that my enemy's enemy is
:04:51. > :04:55.sometimes my friend, sometimes my enemy's enemy is my enemy. They
:04:56. > :04:59.occupy a very key geographical position in terms of their border
:05:00. > :05:03.with Syria, their relationship, a bad one with Kurds and Kurdish
:05:04. > :05:08.fighters also on their border, who had been seen as being helpful to
:05:09. > :05:13.the coalition in terms of fighting Islamic State. They have been seen
:05:14. > :05:18.to be helpful. Turkey is a Nato member. This is extremely alarming.
:05:19. > :05:22.Under the president Turkey has become more Islamist. They are
:05:23. > :05:26.supporting Islamist in Syria and they are an Islamist regime. The
:05:27. > :05:32.fact they may have been targeted by Islamist 's does not alter the fact
:05:33. > :05:38.that the West is in alliance with a regime which is fundamentally not
:05:39. > :05:41.friendly to it. Also, of course, we have these very distressing stories.
:05:42. > :05:48.Irish or they are happening right across Syria, of series and towns
:05:49. > :05:54.where people are literally starving to death. -- I am sure they are
:05:55. > :05:59.happening. It is a dreadful humanitarian catastrophe. If one
:06:00. > :06:05.wants to end the dreadful humanitarian catastrophe of Syria,
:06:06. > :06:07.one has two remove the Islamic Republic
:06:08. > :06:13.one has two remove the Islamic over the whole series of
:06:14. > :06:18.What has David Cameron said every child needs?
:06:19. > :06:38.Thousands of junior doctors across England are striking today,
:06:39. > :06:41.in the latest stage of their dispute with the Government over
:06:42. > :06:44.Doctors are providing emergency cover, but around 4,000
:06:45. > :06:47.routine treatments have been postponed.
:06:48. > :06:50.The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, spoke briefly to journalists
:06:51. > :06:59.Do your proposals threaten the future of the NHS?
:07:00. > :07:03.Is there enough money to create a 24/7 NHS?
:07:04. > :07:10.What is your message to junior doctors?
:07:11. > :07:18.And our assistant political editor, Norman Smith, is outside
:07:19. > :07:25.St Thomas's Hospital in Central London.
:07:26. > :07:33.The first strike in 40 years for junior doctors, how has it come to
:07:34. > :07:38.this? A good question. It has been going on for years, since 2012. The
:07:39. > :07:42.difficulty is simply this. Both sides seem to be talking past each
:07:43. > :07:48.other. They are not on the same page. The Government said, we have a
:07:49. > :07:53.manifest a mandate to introduce a 24-hour NHS. This is what the
:07:54. > :07:58.changes are about. Junior doctors say, we're already working 24-hour
:07:59. > :08:01.NHS. The problem at the weekends is not junior doctors, it is
:08:02. > :08:07.consultants. The Government is saying, OK, we are making you a very
:08:08. > :08:14.good payoff. We are increasing a paid by 11%. 75% of junior doctors,
:08:15. > :08:17.they say, will be better off. The BMA says absolutely not. Junior
:08:18. > :08:22.doctors will lose something like 30% of their pay. You get the sense that
:08:23. > :08:27.both sides are nowhere near reaching any sort of deal. They have been to
:08:28. > :08:32.ACAS and no deal has been reached. More strikes are planned. The factor
:08:33. > :08:38.that will break this dispute is not the merits of the arguments on
:08:39. > :08:41.either side but public opinion. If public opinion sways heavily one
:08:42. > :08:46.side or the other, I suspect that will determine the outcome of this
:08:47. > :08:53.dispute. That, in your mind, will implement government strategy. --
:08:54. > :08:56.influence. Jeremy Hunt has been criticised for mishandling this
:08:57. > :09:02.dispute. What is the strategy today by the Government? The strategy
:09:03. > :09:07.today is kind of to hide under the table and say nothing. We saw from
:09:08. > :09:10.Jeremy had they do not want to have their faces plastered on the
:09:11. > :09:17.television screen. Roughly basic logic would suggest if you have a
:09:18. > :09:21.politician and a junior doctor on the television screen at the same
:09:22. > :09:26.time, he would use in the bars with? Probably the junior doctor. Maybe we
:09:27. > :09:30.put doctors up on a pedestal and maybe the public is becoming jaded
:09:31. > :09:34.about all of this because they would rather like a 24-hour NHS. They
:09:35. > :09:39.would like to feel confident about going into hospital at the weekend.
:09:40. > :09:44.They are suffering pretty tough times. Junior doctors are getting
:09:45. > :09:47.11%, say the Government. There is a view in government circles that if
:09:48. > :09:52.these disputes go on and we do move to the third set of strikes that
:09:53. > :09:56.will involve accident and emergency departments and maybe public opinion
:09:57. > :10:01.will shift and the BMA will find itself out on a limb. That will
:10:02. > :10:05.slightly define conventional logic. Normally we assume sympathy would
:10:06. > :10:12.lie with the doctors, but make -- but maybe not if this drags on.
:10:13. > :10:14.Let's talk now to our correspondent, Phil Mackie, who's outside
:10:15. > :10:18.the Sandwell hospital in West Bromwich.
:10:19. > :10:23.How under pressure are services there? Extremely so. They have
:10:24. > :10:30.declared a level for incident within this draft. That means they are
:10:31. > :10:33.really struggling to discharge patients will they have had
:10:34. > :10:38.exceptional demand. They have too many people in and they cannot get
:10:39. > :10:42.them out in time. They have declared a level for incident. They have
:10:43. > :10:47.asked the striking junior doctors to come back in. The junior doctors
:10:48. > :10:51.have not left the picket line and they are continuing to protest and
:10:52. > :10:54.getting a lot of support from people driving by. What they have said if
:10:55. > :11:01.their understanding of the strike agreement would be they would go
:11:02. > :11:03.back in for a level five incident, which. Level four is something they
:11:04. > :11:08.would experience slightly more often and it is something they have known
:11:09. > :11:12.about, they say, in terms of trust management for some time and they
:11:13. > :11:16.are not going in. There are junior doctors providing emergency cover,
:11:17. > :11:19.as they ordinarily would do. One of the people striking here today said
:11:20. > :11:23.this was essentially exactly the same situation as it was over
:11:24. > :11:28.Christmas and New Year at this hospital and management, they say,
:11:29. > :11:33.did not choose to declare a level for incident on that occasion.
:11:34. > :11:38.Clearly the stakes are high and it seems to be escalating, and maybe we
:11:39. > :11:43.will see that across the country. At the moment, polls show there are
:11:44. > :11:48.high levels of public support. Do you have any evidence of that
:11:49. > :11:52.waning? I have not seen anything myself. It is very difficult in a
:11:53. > :11:56.hospital circumstance. People are coming and going. Even members of
:11:57. > :11:59.the public probably visiting a relative or have their own need to
:12:00. > :12:04.be in the hospital and they tend to be quite sympathetic. A lady passed
:12:05. > :12:09.me half an hour ago with an arm in a sling. She was due in Tamara and she
:12:10. > :12:12.said if it had been today, she would not have minded because she is
:12:13. > :12:19.giving the junior doctors full backing. You get lots of cars coming
:12:20. > :12:22.past, beeping their horns and waving in support. There is no scientific
:12:23. > :12:25.way of working this out. The survey that suggests that two thirds of
:12:26. > :12:30.people behind the doctors broadly and unscientific leave that is about
:12:31. > :12:33.what I would think is the case here standing in West Bromwich. Thank you
:12:34. > :12:37.very much. And I'm joined now by
:12:38. > :12:39.the Conservative MP and member of the Health Select Committee,
:12:40. > :12:42.Dr James Davies, and by Dr Tom Dolphin, a member
:12:43. > :12:44.of the BMA's Consultants Committee and a former chair of their
:12:45. > :12:46.Junior Doctors Committee. And I should say that
:12:47. > :12:55.no Health Minister was Obviously, following the line of
:12:56. > :13:03.hiding beneath the table when it comes to this, as our correspondent
:13:04. > :13:06.says. Let's pick up the incident in Sandwell at the hospital, where they
:13:07. > :13:10.have declared a level for incident. Does that make you feel bad? Nobody
:13:11. > :13:14.wanted to take strike action today but we have been forced into it by
:13:15. > :13:19.the Government. With incidents like they declared in Sandwell, there is
:13:20. > :13:23.a process for getting junior doctors back into the hostel if there is a
:13:24. > :13:26.major incident. That was a significant, unpredicted event that
:13:27. > :13:32.would occur. That is the term that was used at the time. If there is a
:13:33. > :13:36.major incident, junior doctors will flood back into the hospital, let's
:13:37. > :13:40.be clear about this. Not at this level. Doctors across the country --
:13:41. > :13:47.hospitals across the country have been running at these levels for a
:13:48. > :13:51.long time. It is nothing new. Nothing has changed today. There is
:13:52. > :13:55.no difference between this and what happened over the Christmas
:13:56. > :13:58.holidays. How has the Government let this come to a situation where we
:13:59. > :14:01.have junior doctors for the first time in 40 years ago forming support
:14:02. > :14:07.by the doctors who returned the strike ballot in favour of the
:14:08. > :14:13.strike, are all wrong? I think they have been misled. I am a BMA member
:14:14. > :14:20.and GP is my background. It is something I had a very open mind
:14:21. > :14:25.over as the issue blew up really. Looking into the fine detail of it,
:14:26. > :14:29.I have to say that the Government has addressed the vast majority of
:14:30. > :14:35.the concerns that have been put forward. Right. But to admit they
:14:36. > :14:39.have not addressed all of them. There are some issues over Saturday
:14:40. > :14:43.pay, in particular. The Government is looking about bringing about a
:14:44. > :14:50.seven-day NHS. This is where discussions are needed. I think
:14:51. > :14:55.strike action is a step too far in the circumstances. Have you been
:14:56. > :14:59.misled by the BMA? Have you been misled by anyone? The Government is
:15:00. > :15:03.trying to put across its position. We cannot mislead junior doctors.
:15:04. > :15:07.They are bright and intelligent people. The applet evidence in front
:15:08. > :15:14.of them and 98% have rejected the offer as unsafe. Isn't that just
:15:15. > :15:21.behind -- like hiding behind an excuse? There are a lot of junior
:15:22. > :15:25.doctors and it seems that junior doctors think the hours they are
:15:26. > :15:31.being asked to work will be more restrictive and the safeguards are
:15:32. > :15:34.not robust enough. They are protecting the future of doctors
:15:35. > :15:41.working practices. Do you add me to the governor has not addressed back
:15:42. > :15:48.key issue? -- the Government has not addressed back key issue. Also, the
:15:49. > :15:49.number of nights on call consecutively. It is about the
:15:50. > :16:01.safeguards. They don't trust the Government to
:16:02. > :16:04.hold by their claim that hours will be restricted but there are no
:16:05. > :16:08.safeguards to restrict it. One of the concerns was fines were being
:16:09. > :16:13.removed from hospitals... So no incentive there... But Government's
:16:14. > :16:18.latest proposals do address that in terms of fines being levied and put
:16:19. > :16:22.into a part and underseen by a guardian who will use that for
:16:23. > :16:28.educational purposes and managing of the interests of junior doctors. So,
:16:29. > :16:31.in the end, the Government has met pretty well every single concern by
:16:32. > :16:35.June area doctors and it is a negotiation and there hasn't been
:16:36. > :16:41.any compromise by June area doctors in this negotiation. -- by junior
:16:42. > :16:45.doctors. We have moved a significant distance from starting position. We
:16:46. > :16:52.are keen to negotiate. In what way have you moved? As far as I can see
:16:53. > :16:58.you haven't at all With we are very keen to be negotiate. There was to
:16:59. > :17:04.be a strike in December. We went back to asas, we didn't want to
:17:05. > :17:07.strike. There was no movement from the Government side from the
:17:08. > :17:12.discussions in ACAS. They don't address the safety issues. Since the
:17:13. > :17:15.strike mandate went ahead, there have been changes, though, haven't
:17:16. > :17:19.there? There has been an offer by the Government, certain sli on pay
:17:20. > :17:26.and doctors keep saying it is not about pay. So today, what is it that
:17:27. > :17:29.the Government can offer you that would mean you wouldn't strike in
:17:30. > :17:33.future weeks? It is a complex contract. I can't boil it down N
:17:34. > :17:38.generality it has to be a safe contract. -- in generality. That
:17:39. > :17:44.doesn't have doctors' hours increasing again. Again That's
:17:45. > :17:49.nebulus. But what they are putting on the table doesn't gar be a tee
:17:50. > :17:53.the hours will be safe and that they won't increase again. -- guarantee.
:17:54. > :17:57.When you look at the detail of how what is on paper will be enforced,
:17:58. > :18:02.there is nothing to give it teeth. That's what worries us. Principally,
:18:03. > :18:06.should doctors be going on strike? Let's leave the whys and wherefors.
:18:07. > :18:12.They have a right to strike. Personally I believe doctors should
:18:13. > :18:14.not go on strike, ever. Whatever the circumstances, however much pressure
:18:15. > :18:19.they are put under? Medicine is a vocation. They should not be
:18:20. > :18:24.behaving that they are unionised workers. The BMA... Why not? Because
:18:25. > :18:28.they are responsible for patient safety. The word "safety" is used
:18:29. > :18:32.the whole time. I'm prepared to believe the Government has been bone
:18:33. > :18:37.headed and bad and a hopeless negotiate o. Let's assume that's the
:18:38. > :18:42.case. It is still the case that, you know, the doctors are saying it is
:18:43. > :18:49.all about safety. This is really, this really sticks in the crew
:18:50. > :18:56.because whether or not this -- craw. Whether or not the sandwell thing is
:18:57. > :18:59.manufactured or no. You cannot have doctors taking strike without
:19:00. > :19:04.imperilling patients. At the least putting them at disadvantage. At
:19:05. > :19:08.wost xree miesing safety. -- at worst, compromising safety. Doctors
:19:09. > :19:11.may vo a good point over safety but -- may have a good point. But
:19:12. > :19:13.ultimately they are the -- may have a good point. But
:19:14. > :19:18.that's letting the the hook because they are relying on
:19:19. > :19:20.the fact that doctors will feel so the fact that doctors will feel so
:19:21. > :19:25.bad. What is more important, patient lives or sticking the Government
:19:26. > :19:26.bad. What is more important, patient The arrangement we have made are to
:19:27. > :19:30.keep patients safe today and The arrangement we have made are to
:19:31. > :19:37.safe in the long term. Today The arrangement we have made are to
:19:38. > :19:42.colleagues of mine and other senior doctors covering to make sure urgent
:19:43. > :19:45.patients get seen. If people are worried are stick, they should go to
:19:46. > :19:53.hospital, they will get the care they need. What about the
:19:54. > :19:58.Government. The Government should be concerned about patient safety, or
:19:59. > :20:02.any future strike, where there may not be any emergency cover. Has
:20:03. > :20:07.Jeremy Hunt handled this well? The riesh u is about a new contract to
:20:08. > :20:10.improve patient safety. I'm talking about the language used, about the
:20:11. > :20:15.breakdown of trust. Has has Jeremy Hunt handled that well? I think he
:20:16. > :20:20.has done all he can from what I have seen. I think that there are
:20:21. > :20:25.underlying issue and I know this from having worked from ape last
:20:26. > :20:30.year as a doctor in temples how doctors and the medical protesting
:20:31. > :20:33.feel. -- in terms of how doctors and the medical profession feel, in
:20:34. > :20:37.terms of their work and values, that we go out of our way to prove how
:20:38. > :20:44.hard the medical profession does work and they are valued. The
:20:45. > :20:48.reality is there is a brain drain of junior doctors. The Health Select
:20:49. > :20:50.Committee has said that junior doctors are leaving because they
:20:51. > :20:55.don't think there is a few fewer for them here. That's what I'm talking B
:20:56. > :21:00.I don't think it is about this contract per se. That issue was in
:21:01. > :21:05.place prior to this and it has, to some extent framed the whole debate.
:21:06. > :21:09.What about accusations that it is being exploited, this strike by more
:21:10. > :21:15.militant tendencies? Do you think it has been hijacked? I don't think
:21:16. > :21:21.think so. We have a clear mandate. 98% of junior doctors supported the
:21:22. > :21:28.ak. The -- this action. The entire profession shined the action. --
:21:29. > :21:31.supported the action. The Government's plans for more
:21:32. > :21:33.affordable housing - and a new right to buy for housing
:21:34. > :21:35.association tenants - are being debated in
:21:36. > :21:37.the House of Commons today. Ministers say the schemes
:21:38. > :21:39.will benefit thousands of young people looking to get
:21:40. > :21:41.on the housing ladder. Labour say it could benefit foreign
:21:42. > :21:44.investors and buy-to-let landlords The Conservatives want to get
:21:45. > :21:48.building and put more people onto the housing ladder,
:21:49. > :21:51.a key pledge in their manifesto, and they hope to have
:21:52. > :21:53.1 million new homes by 2020. Under the proposals,
:21:54. > :21:56.starter homes would be sold to first time buyers under 40 at a discount
:21:57. > :21:59.of at least 20% on properties worth There would be an an obligation
:22:00. > :22:06.for all planning authorities to build more new homes
:22:07. > :22:09.and expensive council houses It will be easier to build
:22:10. > :22:19.on brownfield sites and housing association tenants will be given
:22:20. > :22:22.the right to buy their homes. There will be measures to ensure
:22:23. > :22:25.those in social housing on higher incomes pay more in rent
:22:26. > :22:28.and councils will be given the power to blacklist or even
:22:29. > :22:31.ban rogue landlords. The plan was outlined
:22:32. > :22:33.by George Osborne in his spending Today, we set out our bold plan
:22:34. > :22:40.to back families who aspire First, I'm doubling
:22:41. > :22:44.the housing budget. And we will deliver,
:22:45. > :22:51.with Government help, 400,000 affordable new homes
:22:52. > :22:54.by the end of the decade. And "affordable" means not just
:22:55. > :22:57.affordable to rent but affordable That is the biggest house-building
:22:58. > :23:04.programme by any government We've been joined by Labour's Shadow
:23:05. > :23:14.Housing Minister John Healey and the Conservative
:23:15. > :23:16.MP, Chris Philps. And I should say that no government
:23:17. > :23:30.minister was available This bill broadens the definition of
:23:31. > :23:35.affordable housing to include starter homes costing up to ?450,000
:23:36. > :23:41.in London. How can a property costing 17 times the average UK
:23:42. > :23:45.salary be classed, in anyone's mind as "affordable"? The point is the
:23:46. > :23:49.maximum price is ?450,000. The hope is there will be many homes to buy
:23:50. > :23:53.much less than that and the 20% discount is itself a welcome step. I
:23:54. > :23:58.would also say, with Government schemes like help to buy, young
:23:59. > :24:02.first-time buyers can now borrow up to 95% of that homes' value. Is that
:24:03. > :24:07.responsible after the crash? It is. It helps people on to the housing
:24:08. > :24:14.ladder, and realise their dream. 95%. The deposit is only ?22,000 h
:24:15. > :24:19.these are affordable. Getting people on the ladder is a good step. You
:24:20. > :24:24.say up to ?450,000. You hope would be lower. How much lower? What would
:24:25. > :24:27.you say is affordable? It depends on people's personal circumstances and
:24:28. > :24:32.income and whether there is one or two earners in the household. Let's
:24:33. > :24:37.not forget, outside London, which is of course 80% or 85 of the country
:24:38. > :24:40.it is up to ?250,000. These are welcome steps to help young first
:24:41. > :24:45.time buyers get on to the housing ladder. I accept there is a massive
:24:46. > :24:48.difference between London and south-east and other parts of the
:24:49. > :24:53.country but starter homes will be sold at a 20% discount to first time
:24:54. > :24:57.buyers under the age of 40 but according to the housing charity,
:24:58. > :25:02.Shelter, by 2020, someone trying to buy a starter home in London will
:25:03. > :25:08.need an annual Sal riff ?77,000 and a deposit of ?98,000. When you say
:25:09. > :25:13.it has to be "affordable" and depends on people's incomes. It is
:25:14. > :25:18.only for the rich. I don't accept the analysis. You don't accept that?
:25:19. > :25:24.No, they ignore the help to buy scheme. The deposit isn't that much,
:25:25. > :25:29.it is lower, ?22,500. And they ignore the fact that many people are
:25:30. > :25:33.couples, you look at the household income, not individual income. And
:25:34. > :25:38.thirdly it ignores the fact that ?450,000 is maximum. I would expect
:25:39. > :25:41.many developers, particularly housing associations, who are
:25:42. > :25:46.increasingly building houses to rent will have units in London far less
:25:47. > :25:50.than ?450,000. This is a positive step. It'll help some, even if it
:25:51. > :25:53.seems on the face of it, expensive for a lot of people. We back the
:25:54. > :25:58.principle of starter homes but we want them to work for ordinary
:25:59. > :26:01.people on ordinary incomes and work better which is why we tabled an
:26:02. > :26:05.amendment to make them more affordable to people on modest
:26:06. > :26:10.incomes. There is a massive gap between affordable homes, and what
:26:11. > :26:15.Chris is talking about. Fist, you set what is affordable as a sensible
:26:16. > :26:21.limit. And secondly, this was our argument, if the takss payer is
:26:22. > :26:28.putting public -- taxpayer. Into discounts, that should stay on the
:26:29. > :26:32.shelf and help future first time buyers to keep the price downs. Let
:26:33. > :26:39.me help you on the figures. Croydon, yu average starter home would be
:26:40. > :26:45.area dour average would be ?300,000. You need an income of ?64,000. You
:26:46. > :26:49.still need help with your deposit. The point about starter homes taken
:26:50. > :26:53.in their own terms, is they will be a huge letdown for many young people
:26:54. > :27:00.and ordinary families that want to be able to buy their first home will
:27:01. > :27:02.be thwarted by the terms of the scheme. You are not saying not do
:27:03. > :27:06.anything. The problem with your analysis is people will think - is
:27:07. > :27:10.Labour not going to do anything to help people on starter homes? This
:27:11. > :27:14.is a big discount at 20%, it will help a group of people and London
:27:15. > :27:17.isn't the only place we are talking about. If this was a scheme that
:27:18. > :27:21.worked better, along the lines we have been proposing and I hope the
:27:22. > :27:25.Lords will take a look at, alongside the increase in the affordable homes
:27:26. > :27:29.to rent and buy that are in place at the moment but will get choked off
:27:30. > :27:33.by the provision for this bill, then we will be looking at a sensible
:27:34. > :27:37.housing policy which starts to meet the need for new homes of all types
:27:38. > :27:41.all across the country. That won't happen as a result of the bill we
:27:42. > :27:43.are discussing this afternoon in the Commons. Housing has long been a
:27:44. > :27:49.massive problem for governments over the decades. We are not getting to
:27:50. > :27:52.the point where it looks as if, finally, the parties have decided
:27:53. > :27:56.something has to be done. Do you think these policies will make an
:27:57. > :28:00.enormous amount of difference to people who literally will not be
:28:01. > :28:04.able to afford to buy their own home and is it desirable for them to?
:28:05. > :28:08.Well, something has to be done. I think this is something that should
:28:09. > :28:12.not be done. I think it is the wrong policy. It seems to me that this
:28:13. > :28:17.bill is very much driven by ideology, the ideology that says -
:28:18. > :28:22.home-ownership good, renting, council ownership, bad. Now I agree,
:28:23. > :28:26.home-ownership is good t has many advantages. Those who can afford a
:28:27. > :28:29.buy their own homes should be allowed and encouraged to do so. I'm
:28:30. > :28:34.in favour of that. But the bottom line is the reason we have social
:28:35. > :28:38.housing or council housing is that there are unfortune outly many
:28:39. > :28:42.people and -- unfortunately many people and will always be will, many
:28:43. > :28:47.people who can't afford to get on to the housing ladder. What worries me
:28:48. > :28:50.about this bill is that it is all about home-ownership. Not a
:28:51. > :28:54.comprehensive housing strategy for ever, including those who can and
:28:55. > :29:00.can't afford to buy. -- for everybody. To be clear this, bill
:29:01. > :29:03.will be the death nail that of genuine affordable housing to rent
:29:04. > :29:08.and buy independent experts say over the next five years we are set to
:29:09. > :29:12.lose 180,000. It started with Labour, far fewer council homes
:29:13. > :29:14.under Labour, too. Directly as a result of the bill, before
:29:15. > :29:18.Parliament at the moment. But isn't it true that there will be far fewer
:29:19. > :29:26.council homes and social housing available? No, I don't accept that.
:29:27. > :29:29.Under five years of Government Government we built more --
:29:30. > :29:35.Conservative Government, we built more than the previous Labour
:29:36. > :29:39.Government. Is that the case? It is. Hang on, let me answer the question.
:29:40. > :29:43.Eight out of ten of those new council homes built in the last five
:29:44. > :29:46.years were commissioned by Labour, funded by Labour when I was the
:29:47. > :29:50.Labour Housing Minister. You inherited a programme you started
:29:51. > :29:52.and now you have stopped it. Do you support that programme, Chris? In
:29:53. > :29:56.your mind, talking about support that programme, Chris? In
:29:57. > :30:03.is it right, should there be more council homes and social housing?
:30:04. > :30:04.is it right, should there be more thereby who are social housing and a
:30:05. > :30:06.focus on council thereby who are social housing and a
:30:07. > :30:12.Government and Mayor thereby who are social housing and a
:30:13. > :30:15.homes over the last five years, and that should continue. One of the
:30:16. > :30:18.problems we have in the country is we are not building enough
:30:19. > :30:20.problems we have in the country is before we start arguing about social
:30:21. > :30:23.who are starter homes, we need to build who are homes,
:30:24. > :30:27.who are starter homes, we need to the heart of the bill is a plan to
:30:28. > :30:31.build more homes on brow field loan to alleviate the problems we are
:30:32. > :30:34.talking about. -- brownfield land. 86% of our fellow citizens aspire to
:30:35. > :30:40.own their own home 86% of our fellow citizens aspire to
:30:41. > :30:44.helps them realise that dream. Not all, 86% want to own their own
:30:45. > :30:47.homes. But it is about reality. What I'm saying is you wouldn't quite
:30:48. > :30:51.answer whether you there there should be more focus on council
:30:52. > :30:55.homes and social housing. What about the private rental sector? You say
:30:56. > :30:59.it is desirable people aspire to own their own homes. It is easy for
:31:00. > :30:59.people who have their own homes to say people
:31:00. > :31:07.people who have their own homes to affordable rental sector but what is
:31:08. > :31:18.The sector is on its own already renting sector? Force for
:31:19. > :31:19.The sector is on its own already burgeoning. People cannot
:31:20. > :31:23.The sector is on its own already buy. That is precisely the problem.
:31:24. > :31:27.It is a buy. That is precisely the problem.
:31:28. > :31:30.attempts to address, partly by buy. That is precisely the problem.
:31:31. > :31:35.building more homes and secondly by making home ownership more
:31:36. > :31:40.accessible with things like starter homes. The local Government
:31:41. > :31:44.Association revealed 475,000 homes have been given planning permission.
:31:45. > :31:50.That is an all-time record. You must say the Government has done
:31:51. > :31:53.something right there. There are permissions in place. We want to see
:31:54. > :31:56.the builders building those homes. Above all, as I said earlier, we
:31:57. > :32:02.have to have Above all, as I said earlier, we
:32:03. > :32:05.which are genuinely affordable to rent and buy. The extreme emphasis
:32:06. > :32:12.on starter homes which will be beyond the reach of many young
:32:13. > :32:16.people, simple, exclusive emphasis, which is political and not good
:32:17. > :32:22.housing policy. It is not good economic. It will prove, in my view,
:32:23. > :32:33.to be bad politics as well. It is shutting out the range of housing
:32:34. > :32:40.need we need across the board. Uses plea -- view simply would not be
:32:41. > :32:48.able to support the bill. I do not think it well. In no way does this
:32:49. > :32:53.attack affordable homes to rent. Also starter homes. Over the last
:32:54. > :32:58.ten or 20 years, affordable homes have mostly been defined as homes to
:32:59. > :33:03.rent, rather than homes to buy. It adds in homes to buy to the
:33:04. > :33:07.affordable mix. That is a good thing. Can I ask you about something
:33:08. > :33:14.hours, the PLP meeting last month? What is the timetable for neighbour
:33:15. > :33:19.having policy on Trident? The principal place where Labour Party
:33:20. > :33:22.policy is made is a Labour Party conference. That seems to be the
:33:23. > :33:28.timescale the review will need to work to. It will be a strategic
:33:29. > :33:36.security and defence review, which is right. Trident Bob be a part of
:33:37. > :33:41.that. It is about Britain's DM security in the world. -- will be a
:33:42. > :33:46.part. You do not think there will be a decision before the autumn? That
:33:47. > :33:55.is my understanding. It is the briefing we had. The country needs
:33:56. > :33:59.that sort of debate. Our nuclear capability is a part of that. Is
:34:00. > :34:04.your understanding them not be any changes to the way that policies
:34:05. > :34:10.actually devised? No change in the way Labour makes its party policy?
:34:11. > :34:16.No, the way the Labour Party makes its policy is finalised and done...
:34:17. > :34:20.That will not change? At the Labour Party conference. You asked about
:34:21. > :34:24.the meeting of Labour MPs last night but this is a really important
:34:25. > :34:27.review. It is important for the Labour Party are really important
:34:28. > :34:32.for Britain that we take that proper review, which is about our long-term
:34:33. > :34:35.security and our long-term role in the world. Our nuclear capability
:34:36. > :34:41.needs to be a part of that. I am strongly behind de-escalation and
:34:42. > :34:47.disarmament but I am not the unilateralist. This is a debate this
:34:48. > :34:51.country has to have, especially with the escalating costs of Trident.
:34:52. > :34:53.How can we stop young British Muslims becoming radicalised
:34:54. > :34:57.In his speech to the Conservative Party conference last autumn,
:34:58. > :35:00.David Cameron said he wanted an end to what he called the "passive
:35:01. > :35:04.In our country, there are some children who spend several hours
:35:05. > :35:09.Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with
:35:10. > :35:12.children learning about their faith, whether it is in a madrassa,
:35:13. > :35:17.a Sunday school, or a Jewish yeshiva.
:35:18. > :35:19.But in some madrassas, we have children
:35:20. > :35:22.being taught that they should not mix with people of other religions.
:35:23. > :35:25.Being beaten, swallowing conspiracy theories about Jewish people.
:35:26. > :35:27.These children should be having their
:35:28. > :35:31.minds opened and their minds broadened, not having their heads
:35:32. > :35:34.filled with poison and their hearts filled with hate.
:35:35. > :35:46.If an institution is teaching children intensively,
:35:47. > :35:49.whatever its religion, we will, like any other school,
:35:50. > :35:53.make it register so it can be inspected.
:35:54. > :35:57.And be in no doubt, if you are teaching intolerance,
:35:58. > :36:05.This afternoon, the Home Affairs Select Committee will take evidence
:36:06. > :36:07.on this issue from a number of people,
:36:08. > :36:10.including the Secretary of the Bradford Council for Mosques,
:36:11. > :36:24.Do you agree with the Prime Minister that there is a problem in the first
:36:25. > :36:26.place? We agree there are problems within the Muslim community but
:36:27. > :36:30.radicalisation, as the Prime Minister is setting out in his
:36:31. > :36:36.speech basically we have evidence of that. No evidence at all? No
:36:37. > :36:47.evidence that radicalisation is taking place in mosques. What have
:36:48. > :36:53.you done to investigate? Since the consultation paper came out, we have
:36:54. > :36:57.visited 14 councils for mosques across the country, in particular in
:36:58. > :37:01.the north. We find there is already safeguarding and policies in place,
:37:02. > :37:04.working with the local authority and the counterterrorism bill that is
:37:05. > :37:10.all ready in place that does look at that. I put to you it is not
:37:11. > :37:15.working. It is saying headlines of young people on almost a daily,
:37:16. > :37:20.weekly basis, they are being radicalised and they are being drawn
:37:21. > :37:27.to make a journey to war-torn Syria. The most infamous example is the
:37:28. > :37:34.three teenage girls. Do you at Mick has not worked? We admit there is a
:37:35. > :37:43.problem. -- at admit it has not worked. It is not in a mosque, a
:37:44. > :37:47.madrassa, a church or a synagogue. Family setting, elsewhere, community
:37:48. > :37:52.settings, college campuses. What do you say in response to that
:37:53. > :37:56.evidence? There is a problem with language that is what we mean by
:37:57. > :38:02.radicalisation and extremism. If by radicalisation in you mean
:38:03. > :38:06.recruiting people to the jihad. Major sources of this are on social
:38:07. > :38:11.media. If you think that radicalisation in terms of jihadi
:38:12. > :38:15.recruitment is something which is nurtured by a kind of toxic mix of
:38:16. > :38:21.ideas, then it becomes something very different. I think personally,
:38:22. > :38:24.and effective counter radicalisation, counter extremist
:38:25. > :38:27.strategy, must have two crucial elements. Yet has to be accepted
:38:28. > :38:36.that some of the ideas in the Islamic, religious precepts and
:38:37. > :38:41.values, themselves form the sea in which the toxic ideas swim. It does
:38:42. > :38:45.not mean all Muslims subscribe to them but it is a genuine and
:38:46. > :38:49.legitimate interpretation of the faith, as expounded by Isla Mikel
:38:50. > :38:54.authorities over the world. I think we, in this country, must aid and
:38:55. > :38:58.give every encouragement to Muslim reformers, who wish to make
:38:59. > :39:02.theological reform. That is the first thing. Secondly, the Prime
:39:03. > :39:08.Minister alluded to the fact that we must address the ideas that form a
:39:09. > :39:12.grievance culture. If young people believe their culture, faith and
:39:13. > :39:16.community is under attack from a conspiracy of the West, or a
:39:17. > :39:19.conspiracy of Jews, of whom I am one, then it is not surprising they
:39:20. > :39:24.are vulnerable to jihadi recruitment. In my view, Western
:39:25. > :39:29.politicians should stand up and address these myths and lies about
:39:30. > :39:37.the West, about Jews, that are being told, in order that Muslims who are
:39:38. > :39:40.growing up can see, or can begin to understand, that what they are being
:39:41. > :39:44.fed by whoever it is, is not true. Do you accent they are not
:39:45. > :39:52.countering enough of the ideology or radicalisation that may not be
:39:53. > :39:57.actually occurring in madrassas or mosques elsewhere? The reason is the
:39:58. > :40:00.prevent strategy is not working. It is marginalising and isolating
:40:01. > :40:04.communities. There are other ways of engaging with the communities and
:40:05. > :40:07.working with them. At this moment in time, there is no consultation
:40:08. > :40:11.taking place with the community is what the Government should do to
:40:12. > :40:17.tackle this from within the community. For people like me, my
:40:18. > :40:23.organisation, and other councils in northern England. You say it is not
:40:24. > :40:29.being counted effectively. Yes. On that basis, what would be wrong with
:40:30. > :40:34.registering and inspecting them? Nothing is wrong with regulation.
:40:35. > :40:39.Nothing wrong if it means protecting safeguarding. What we are against,
:40:40. > :40:46.that this particular piece of document, or consultation, prefers
:40:47. > :40:49.to prevent 19 times, if not more. It is linked to be terrorism and
:40:50. > :40:53.extremism bill, rather than falling at Ofsted and the Department for
:40:54. > :40:58.Education, like all schools. You would be in favour of them being
:40:59. > :41:05.these out of school settings, being registered, inspected and monitored.
:41:06. > :41:11.Would that be view results? It is structural tinkering. There may be a
:41:12. > :41:17.case for that. The problematic issue is one of concept. We're not talking
:41:18. > :41:21.the right language. The majority discourse is kind of going around
:41:22. > :41:25.the edges of this. They are not collectively facing up to the things
:41:26. > :41:30.I have been talking about, which is the ideas that nurture or make these
:41:31. > :41:35.young people vulnerable to really bad guys. Those bad ideas are not
:41:36. > :41:41.being identified. How would you deal with it? Banning orders on
:41:42. > :41:46.nonviolent extremists or closing mosques, is this the way to go about
:41:47. > :41:56.it? It depends how you define extremism. I am troubled by the
:41:57. > :41:58.it? It depends how you define The Government seems to believe that
:41:59. > :41:59.highly Conservative religious ideas are themselves problematic was some
:42:00. > :42:03.it is not problematic, are themselves problematic was some
:42:04. > :42:07.bought religious community to isolate itself in the sense it has
:42:08. > :42:12.cultural practices which set it aside from the mainstream and where
:42:13. > :42:17.have I which may not accord with liberal ideas. The problem only
:42:18. > :42:22.comes when the community wants to do harm to other people. Should there
:42:23. > :42:27.be a bar on alleged extremists working with children and other
:42:28. > :42:31.honourable people? Threats to close mosques that are found this is where
:42:32. > :42:35.the problem would be, to be espousing these radical ideas are
:42:36. > :42:42.not doing enough to them. What else would you suggest in terms of being
:42:43. > :42:46.able to counter these ideas and this sort of radicalisation in
:42:47. > :42:49.able to counter these ideas and this family? Where we are at the moment,
:42:50. > :42:54.my generation was very much part of the British society we felt very
:42:55. > :42:59.inclusive. I am third, fourth generation now, and I have British
:43:00. > :43:04.values, if we know what the term British values means. That is a
:43:05. > :43:07.debate for another day. I could have Muslim, or faith, Jewish, Christian
:43:08. > :43:09.values, and still have my allegiance to Queen and country. The
:43:10. > :43:15.values, and still have my allegiance needs to be very
:43:16. > :43:18.values, and still have my allegiance What does British values mean? There
:43:19. > :43:21.values, and still have my allegiance is a value and and --
:43:22. > :43:24.values, and still have my allegiance identity. We also have family
:43:25. > :43:27.values, faith values, and other values as well. The two can fit hand
:43:28. > :43:32.in hand together. I am values as well. The two can fit hand
:43:33. > :43:36.made. I think he values as well. The two can fit hand
:43:37. > :43:37.generalising. That is not the case. We do some great work
:43:38. > :43:43.generalising. That is not the case. Bradford with councils for mosques.
:43:44. > :43:48.We work with faith communities, the Jewish communities. We were here
:43:49. > :43:51.with the Christian Muslim Forum last night. There is a great deal of work
:43:52. > :43:57.that goes on. I think the governor needs to the crowd. The whole kind
:43:58. > :44:00.of funding issue has resulted in inclusion, cohesion policy is not
:44:01. > :44:04.working, and other has all been stripped of cash.
:44:05. > :44:06.Over the past few months, a row has been rumbling
:44:07. > :44:08.over, of all things, the exact composition
:44:09. > :44:11.Just before Christmas, the Department for Education held
:44:12. > :44:13.a consultation, which prompted 50,000 people to sign an online
:44:14. > :44:16.petition demanding that women and feminism be put firmly
:44:17. > :44:29.Last night, the argument reached the Commons.
:44:30. > :44:31.Removing feminism from the curriculum is entirely
:44:32. > :44:34.incongruous with the claims of the Prime Minister,
:44:35. > :44:38.across the Despatch Box at PMQs, to myself, only weeks ago,
:44:39. > :44:47.So, as it is, A-level politics covers other ideologies
:44:48. > :44:50.which include sex and gender, gender equality, patriarchy and it
:44:51. > :44:53.covers a knowledge of core ideas, doctrines and theories of feminist
:44:54. > :45:00.thoughts, traditions and distinctive features but when the Government
:45:01. > :45:03.announced plans to revise politics A-level curriculum this section had
:45:04. > :45:14.As had the ideologies of nationalism and multiculturalism.
:45:15. > :45:17.As he is there, I would like to know the status of these
:45:18. > :45:20.The supposed compensation for feminism axing was include
:45:21. > :45:22.a section on pressure groups, so at best, on a generous
:45:23. > :45:25.interpretation, feminism survives here in a reference to suffragists
:45:26. > :45:27.and suffragettes as an example of pressure groups.
:45:28. > :45:35.A lot of lateral thinking and mental gymnastics needed there.
:45:36. > :45:37.As is recently mentioned in the other place, feminism can
:45:38. > :45:39.also be studied within other A-levels.
:45:40. > :45:41.For example, under the reformed sociology A-level students must
:45:42. > :45:47.Exam boards are responsible for setting the detailed
:45:48. > :45:49.content of qualifications in their specifications and schools
:45:50. > :45:56.are free to decide which figures they teach about
:45:57. > :45:58.And following the consultation on the politics A-level,
:45:59. > :46:00.exam boards are making changes to the final content to respond
:46:01. > :46:03.ordable rental sector but what is going done in the bill for private
:46:04. > :46:19.renting sector? Force for to the concerns raised
:46:20. > :46:22.and we will publish our response shortly but I can assure
:46:23. > :46:25.the honourable member that the final politics A-level will give
:46:26. > :46:27.all students the opportunity And I should say that no
:46:28. > :46:40.Education Minister was available We heard the idea would be part of
:46:41. > :46:46.the core syllabus. I'm none the wiser. I looked a at it again today.
:46:47. > :46:50.This stuff gets drip fed through buzzfeed. We heard over Christmas
:46:51. > :46:56.there might be a climbdown. He said it there in the Commons. He was
:46:57. > :47:00.asked to give a list and an explicit commitment that feminism will remain
:47:01. > :47:04.and be reinstated. He has kind of said wait and see. It looked as if
:47:05. > :47:10.the Government has U-turned. I don't know if it is a full U-turn. If so,
:47:11. > :47:13.I'm glad it has happened. We need the detail of what has happened. It
:47:14. > :47:19.took two 17-year-old girls to make this happen, actually. I suppose if
:47:20. > :47:24.two 17-year-old girl guides, the Government knows it is in trouble.
:47:25. > :47:28.But yes, despite the two 7-year-old girls, I don't think they are
:47:29. > :47:34.correct and I think it is all rather silly. I think it is a category
:47:35. > :47:38.error. As I understand t the proposal is to add feminism to
:47:39. > :47:46.Conservative titch, socialism and Liberalism as categories. You don't
:47:47. > :47:50.think it is worthy of that? I think it is a category error. Conserve
:47:51. > :47:54.civil, Liberalism and socialism are broad movement of political thought
:47:55. > :47:59.which reflect the way that people in contrasting views order the world.
:48:00. > :48:03.Feck nichl like otherisms, like racism is a were test movement on
:48:04. > :48:09.behalf of a set of people who feel they are not properly represented in
:48:10. > :48:13.various ways. A set of people, you mean 50% of the population. Yes,
:48:14. > :48:16.that's right but still acting as a protest group as indeed this
:48:17. > :48:20.particular initiative is, because it is all to do with the fact there
:48:21. > :48:28.aren't enough women. In other words, there has to be a certain quota of
:48:29. > :48:33.women. An ideological pressure group politics. That clip you showed was
:48:34. > :48:37.me reading out what was in the old syllabus. It was there and has been
:48:38. > :48:40.deleted. What about the substantial point being put, it is arguable it
:48:41. > :48:46.shouldn't be there in the first place. It doesn't merit the same
:48:47. > :48:51.categorisation as the big political movements? On Antony Gidden's
:48:52. > :48:56.definition, the advancement of women's struggles. I think those
:48:57. > :49:01.things, I don't want agenda-blind curriculum. I think the struggles -
:49:02. > :49:06.the to vote was fought for. We knead to be aware of that. They are linked
:49:07. > :49:12.to, unlike otherisms, it is not anary fairy thing. Women are 50% as
:49:13. > :49:18.Jo says, we cannot delete them from the syllabus. When I heard Will hear
:49:19. > :49:22.the words I don't want a "gender-blind" curriculum. I want to
:49:23. > :49:26.reach for the sick bag. This is pressure group politics. One can say
:49:27. > :49:29.I don't want a curriculum that is blind to... The minister can see
:49:30. > :49:34.they have made some serious mistakes. 29% of MPs are women. My
:49:35. > :49:42.respect for ministers exceeds no-one's but nevertheless I do think
:49:43. > :49:44.occasionally even Conservative ministers run frightened for
:49:45. > :49:50.politically correct pressure groups. Or they believe it. Isn't there a
:49:51. > :49:55.case to be made that gender politics hasn't been solved in that sense or
:49:56. > :49:58.that the form of women hasn't been assured... For sure it is a
:49:59. > :50:02.reasonable argument. I'm not saying for a amendment it shouldn't be
:50:03. > :50:05.covered in the curriculum. I'm talking about the fact that this
:50:06. > :50:09.whole movement seems to be prompted by the idea that there aren't enough
:50:10. > :50:16.women being mentioned, which I think is a worse sort of tokenism and that
:50:17. > :50:20.feminism should be elevated to being the same category as socialism,
:50:21. > :50:26.conservatism or Liberalism, which I think is just a category error. Is
:50:27. > :50:31.it that point? The core syllabus has a selection of key political things.
:50:32. > :50:39.Out of 17, only one woman. Meaning 94% were male. Who would you like to
:50:40. > :50:45.see on that syllabus? Simone, Duvoiva. And Americans who wrote
:50:46. > :50:50.about suburban housewives, something I can identify with, o to some
:50:51. > :50:57.extent. I could furnish them with a long list. Why only one out of 17.
:50:58. > :51:01.It is part of a trend. We had 0 out of 63 composers. It is looking at
:51:02. > :51:06.the wrong end of the at the same time. We can argue about names It is
:51:07. > :51:12.negating... As you say, there must be 50% of the population so, yes...
:51:13. > :51:14.Do they not have a valuable contribution? Maybe there wasn't
:51:15. > :51:19.more than one? I don't know. Start with the principle that the numbers
:51:20. > :51:24.are inherently unfair or unjust... In both occasions, the music
:51:25. > :51:28.syllabus and politics, in each case, both it took my constituents,
:51:29. > :51:32.17-year-old girls to do emanufacture petitions, and the latest one, has
:51:33. > :51:36.done the one on the feminism syllabus. There were 50,000
:51:37. > :51:41.signatures. It is a new type of politics where governments can cave
:51:42. > :51:46.in. Are we all feminists now? Are we all feminists? You and I are sitting
:51:47. > :51:52.here in a television studio... Three women. A good ratio. To that extent,
:51:53. > :51:56.feminism has won. What is the complaint? Thank you on that.
:51:57. > :51:58.Ask someone English what their national anthem
:51:59. > :52:01.But actually that's the British National Anthem.
:52:02. > :52:03.The Scots and Welsh have their own anthems but officially
:52:04. > :52:07.Various tunes have been tried, but now an MP is asking his
:52:08. > :52:22.the Steinway and look up his best patriotic tunes.
:52:23. > :52:27.Given its power to inspire, it's no surprise music is used often
:52:28. > :52:31.to sell, reinforce or create an idea.
:52:32. > :52:34.Certain tunes speak of shared values and pride in being part of that
:52:35. > :52:46.tricky to define concept - "the nation".
:52:47. > :52:49.Some melodies even get to become a national anthem but England
:52:50. > :52:51.doesn't have one, not one all to itself.
:52:52. > :52:54.There's some obvious options, and some of them HAVE been used
:52:55. > :52:57.as an English national anthem but none has been THE anthem.
:52:58. > :53:02.Now you might be thinking, wait a minim!
:53:03. > :53:06.Well, one MP has proposed Parliament looks at finding one.
:53:07. > :53:08.Land of Hope and Glory will be a great anthem.
:53:09. > :53:14.So, we could see one of those traditional
:53:15. > :53:17.favourites but we could also see something new coming through.
:53:18. > :53:20.With David Bowie's demise, what about, We Could Be Heroes?
:53:21. > :53:22.That could be a great theme tune for Britain.
:53:23. > :53:40.Alternatively, maybe, somebody will come up
:53:41. > :53:48.Fan fastic what does an anthem? Anthem -- fantastic Boyce Truss.
:53:49. > :53:54.Something to get people up. If it is insip I had it doesn't work.
:53:55. > :53:57.Something to get people up. If it is the problem, our National Anthem
:53:58. > :54:00.gets branded a bit of a dirge Yes because it was played ape sung
:54:01. > :54:04.badly. When it was written it would have been sung and played at
:54:05. > :54:08.probably twice the speed it does now and people would have stood up in
:54:09. > :54:13.the pub and sung it and ensqloe joyed it. Toby Perkins wants to have
:54:14. > :54:17.a competition about what it should be. Do you have a suggestion? I have
:54:18. > :54:29.one thing I think people might be able to get behind.
:54:30. > :54:31.Not quite an army but certainly Dads, there's a small group who're
:54:32. > :54:40.campaigning for their choice, and they aren't shy about it either.
:54:41. > :54:46.We are getting people singing on the streets web we are going past. We
:54:47. > :54:50.had one restaurant when everyone stood up and applauded us. There is
:54:51. > :54:55.great support out there. It is about time England was able to celebrate
:54:56. > :55:00.being English, at sporting events. Let the Scots and Welsh celebrate
:55:01. > :55:09.theirs and we come at the end and God Save The Queen.
:55:10. > :55:11.So if your feet any time really are walking upon England's mountain
:55:12. > :55:14.(not entirely sure where that is by the way) spare a thought
:55:15. > :55:17.if you're English for what really says England isn't God
:55:18. > :55:18.Save the Queen spreads harmony avoids discord,
:55:19. > :55:26.Toby Perkins has joined us in the studio
:55:27. > :55:28.and we've also been joined by Olympic silver medallist
:55:29. > :55:30.Kriss Akabusi, who won many medals in the 400m hurdles
:55:31. > :55:45.Is this what we are talking about to you on your the doorstep on
:55:46. > :55:51.constituency? A light-hearted film but S the truth is we do need a new
:55:52. > :55:55.settlement for England. Seen the devolution for England and Wales. I
:55:56. > :55:58.have struck by this at the Rugby World Cup, the Welsh were singing
:55:59. > :56:02.their anthem, we are being represented by England but singing
:56:03. > :56:07.the British anthem. The problems with the union, Scots and Welsh see
:56:08. > :56:10.others and England thinking of ourselves as synonymous. This is a
:56:11. > :56:14.part of that. What would you change it to? Jerusalem is my choice but
:56:15. > :56:19.the key thing about the bill is to have a national consultation.
:56:20. > :56:21.the key thing about the bill is to what about you,
:56:22. > :56:26.the key thing about the bill is to saviourioured your Commonwealth
:56:27. > :56:33.medals more if it had been Land of Hope And Glory rather than good save
:56:34. > :56:39.the Queen? It would have worked but the National Anthem is a unifying
:56:40. > :56:43.factor, all under the umbrella. Whatever God you serve, you have
:56:44. > :56:47.Queen and country and the National Anthem and Union Jack says something
:56:48. > :56:53.to me. It is much more than the words, it is a unifying force, it is
:56:54. > :56:58.the idea that 6 million people, I am one, not the only one and I live
:56:59. > :57:09.under the umbrella. -- 60 million. What about the consultation, would
:57:10. > :57:14.you go for anything else under under the English anthem? Well, listening
:57:15. > :57:19.to Toby, and every night as a young man, it was played on it the V
:57:20. > :57:23.screens and I grew up thinking England and Great Britain are
:57:24. > :57:27.synonymous, I understand the clamour for England having its own place. Do
:57:28. > :57:31.you like the tune? Doesn't do a great deal for me, but the fact it
:57:32. > :57:36.it is the National Anthem. It is clear from Toby that this enterprise
:57:37. > :57:42.to change to Jerusalem or whatever is part of a drive to build up
:57:43. > :57:45.English nationalism. I think that is a really rep prehencible things.
:57:46. > :57:53.Wales and Scotland have? It is not good. It is not good. We have a we
:57:54. > :57:57.are a union nighted king do. I agree can Kriss, the National Anthem sung
:57:58. > :58:00.at sporting events is not a team song. It is the declaration by the
:58:01. > :58:05.England team or whoever the sports people are that they have an
:58:06. > :58:09.allegiance to the crown, an allegiance than something bigger,
:58:10. > :58:15.called England, the UK which binds us altogether. Jeremy Corbyn hasn't
:58:16. > :58:20.put you up to this? He hasn't. But it is wrong, if we are competing as
:58:21. > :58:26.England we should be England. When Kriss and people who follow him
:58:27. > :58:30.represent Britain, it should be skop God Save the Queen. I would sing you
:58:31. > :58:34.out but my voice isn't good enough. There's just time before we go
:58:35. > :58:37.to find out the answer to our quiz. What has David Cameron
:58:38. > :58:56.said every child needs? I wish it was D but it is D, a tiger
:58:57. > :59:00.Thanks to Melanie and all my guests. pussycat.
:59:01. > :59:02.I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage
:59:03. > :59:16.Celebrate a country 4,000 years in the making. China begins here.
:59:17. > :59:22.Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.