:00:41. > :00:46.Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Staying in the European
:00:47. > :00:49.Union and the current terms would be a disaster. Strong words from
:00:50. > :00:54.Cabinet Minister Chris Grayling. Could David Cameron 's renegotiation
:00:55. > :01:00.achieve anything which could satisfy his hardline colleagues? David
:01:01. > :01:03.Cameron has promised to take a wrecking ball to 100 rundown estates
:01:04. > :01:08.but will the Government's housing strategy really deliver for people
:01:09. > :01:14.on average incomes? Should you have to declare whether you are a man or
:01:15. > :01:20.woman on your passport? A from MPs on transgender issues says not. What
:01:21. > :01:24.do you think? I don't like it. I don't think it's to do with
:01:25. > :01:33.anything. I don't like that they want to know your age. I agree with
:01:34. > :01:35.that one. An enterprising Eurosceptic produces a pack of cards
:01:36. > :01:41.to identify dangerous Europhiles. Eurosceptic produces a pack of cards
:01:42. > :01:45.All that is coming up in the next hour. With us, Plaid Cymru leader
:01:46. > :01:48.Leanne Wood. Welcome back to the programme. Last week the Prime
:01:49. > :01:53.Minister told his colleagues they would be free to campaign to leave
:01:54. > :01:57.the EU wants his renegotiation is complete and the campaign has begun.
:01:58. > :02:01.This morning the Leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling is told
:02:02. > :02:05.the Daily Telegraph that it would be a disaster for Britain to stay
:02:06. > :02:09.inside the EU as it is constituted at the moment. But he says he
:02:10. > :02:17.supports David Cameron three negotiation strategy. Let's talk to
:02:18. > :02:21.Norman Smith. He is in parliament. Norman, Chris Grayling was given the
:02:22. > :02:25.credit for forcing the Prime Minister to allow Cabinet ministers
:02:26. > :02:31.to go their own way, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised he is first
:02:32. > :02:34.to break ranks? No, I don't think we should be surprised and certainly,
:02:35. > :02:37.Downing Street, they responded with almost a shrug their shoulders and
:02:38. > :02:42.expected Chris Grayling pretty much to do this. I'm tempted to follow
:02:43. > :02:47.Paddy Ashdown 's example and say I lead my hat if Chris Grayling
:02:48. > :02:50.campaigns to remain in the EU. It absolutely clear, is positioning and
:02:51. > :02:55.self... I will regret that, I absolutely clear, is positioning and
:02:56. > :02:58.It's pretty clear he will campaign to get out because when you look at
:02:59. > :03:03.his argument in the Telegraph, is not talking about a minor tweak of
:03:04. > :03:09.our relations with the EU, not talk about tighter benefit curbs, he's
:03:10. > :03:13.saying we can't defend ourselves, if we're are as voted by Eurozone
:03:14. > :03:17.countries even though we are not in the euro, the European Court of
:03:18. > :03:21.Justice is setting the rules. When you take those sorts of
:03:22. > :03:22.Justice is setting the rules. When this is not amantadine awkwardly
:03:23. > :03:24.Justice is setting the rules. When the fence saying, watch and I do? It
:03:25. > :03:30.is playing his made up his mind that he wants to campaign to leave, but,
:03:31. > :03:36.at the moment, he is just staying within the Prime Minister 's rules
:03:37. > :03:40.that he doesn't want anybody breaking ranks ahead of any deal he
:03:41. > :03:43.wanted to make at next month 's summit. I think your hat is a lot
:03:44. > :03:51.safer than Paddy Ashdown's. We will summit. I think your hat is a lot
:03:52. > :03:55.get one ready just in case. What do you think this loosening of Cabinet
:03:56. > :04:00.responsibility impact the EU debate in your mind? It makes a bit of a
:04:01. > :04:05.mockery of the Government holding a position in my view. There needs to
:04:06. > :04:09.be some leadership on this question. And the Government is unable to
:04:10. > :04:12.provide that leadership when the Cabinet are completely split on it,
:04:13. > :04:16.at least that's what it looks like it's going to happen, so I think
:04:17. > :04:23.it's potentially going to cause some confusion and I think the case to
:04:24. > :04:27.remain in will be made all the more difficult because of this decision
:04:28. > :04:32.for them to have a free vote. Wide you think are made more difficult?
:04:33. > :04:38.Eurosceptics are already saying the Government machine will still be
:04:39. > :04:42.much behind the Prime Minister 's line, post three negotiation, come
:04:43. > :04:46.what May? But people are going to be confused, looking to the Government
:04:47. > :04:51.for a position, and they will be hearing different voices coming from
:04:52. > :04:58.that Government. They will be no clear position, no clarity on what
:04:59. > :05:04.the Government is saying, that is best. It happened in 1975 and people
:05:05. > :05:07.managed. I don't remember that one. Let me remind you, the Government
:05:08. > :05:11.was just a split under Harold Wilson and he was forced to allow his
:05:12. > :05:16.Cabinet ministers to go their own way. A lot bigger names abound Chris
:05:17. > :05:23.Grayling, Michael Foot, Tony Benn and so on. They were on programmes
:05:24. > :05:29.like this. The Government one, 2-1. A huge victory. OK, let's hope the
:05:30. > :05:38.same result happens again. I'm very much in favour of remaining in the
:05:39. > :05:40.boat because it's in Wales's best interests, so I'm looking for
:05:41. > :05:45.clarity around the argument. People need to have the information and
:05:46. > :05:52.that needs to be provided as clearly as possible and that debate has not
:05:53. > :05:52.happened yet. Nicola Sturgeon is calling for Scotland to have a veto
:05:53. > :05:56.happened yet. Nicola Sturgeon is over the results and a referendum on
:05:57. > :06:00.EU membership. It's doubtful that would be granted but do you agree
:06:01. > :06:06.with her? Yes, I don't think it's right that one country should vote
:06:07. > :06:10.in one way and pull the others out potentially against their wills so,
:06:11. > :06:16.for example, if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to remain and
:06:17. > :06:19.England votes to leave, then it is not right that one country can pull
:06:20. > :06:27.the others out. There should be an agreement on part of all four before
:06:28. > :06:30.Britain withdraws. Now there were heated exchanges of Prime Minister's
:06:31. > :06:34.Questions yesterday as Jeremy Corbyn pressed to David Cameron on the
:06:35. > :06:37.government's housing policy. An issue of increasing concern to
:06:38. > :06:39.voters according to the polls, and this morning Mr Corbyn has been
:06:40. > :06:43.visiting and new council estate in this morning Mr Corbyn has been
:06:44. > :06:47.Stevenage to press home labours case for more social housing. In a moment
:06:48. > :06:52.I'll talk to the Housing Minister Brendan Lewis but first he is Jo
:06:53. > :06:57.with details of Government plans. As part of his Government housing
:06:58. > :07:03.plans, David Cameron has pledged to demolish and rebuild England's worst
:07:04. > :07:07.housing estates. A total of ?140 million will be made available to
:07:08. > :07:12.community groups, councils and housing associations for the scheme
:07:13. > :07:14.which would seem 100 housing estates demolished and regenerated. The
:07:15. > :07:18.Prime Minister says he wants demolished and regenerated. The
:07:19. > :07:22.rebuild houses, people feel they can have a future in. More broadly, the
:07:23. > :07:27.Government housing bill which covers England and Wales, aims to transform
:07:28. > :07:31.generation rent into generation by. The bill includes plans for
:07:32. > :07:36.so-called starter homes for first-time buyers under the age of
:07:37. > :07:42.40. These starter homes will be available at 80% of the open market
:07:43. > :07:48.value. And their price will be capped at ?250,000 outside London,
:07:49. > :07:54.?450,000 inside the capital. Despite Mr Cameron 's rhetoric, home
:07:55. > :07:54.ownership in England Mr Cameron 's rhetoric, home
:07:55. > :08:03.fallen under two thirds since it's been Prime Minister, down from 66%
:08:04. > :08:07.in 2010-11, down to 63% in 2013-14. The government's plans on housing
:08:08. > :08:10.where the subject of some heated exchanges between David Cameron and
:08:11. > :08:16.Jeremy Corbyn at PMQ 's yesterday. Research by shelter found that
:08:17. > :08:24.families on his so-called living wage will be unable to afford the
:08:25. > :08:30.average starter home in 98% of local authority areas in England. So
:08:31. > :08:33.there's only 2% that may benefit from this. So, instead of building
:08:34. > :08:38.more affordable homes, isn't the Prime Minister handing more homes as
:08:39. > :08:43.affordable which is not a solution to the housing crisis, will he
:08:44. > :08:47.confirm that home ownership has fallen since he became Prime
:08:48. > :08:51.Minister? There is a challenge of helping people buy their own homes,
:08:52. > :08:54.that's what helped by what about, which they opposed, that's what
:08:55. > :08:59.helped to say was about, which they opposed, and that's, isn't it
:09:00. > :09:07.interesting read and answer the question about the 1.3 million
:09:08. > :09:14.housing association tenants. I want what's best for anybody. Let's put
:09:15. > :09:20.it like this, Mr Speaker, he owns his home, I owe my home, why won't
:09:21. > :09:24.he let 1.3 million own their homes? That was yesterday. We are now
:09:25. > :09:30.joined by Brendan Lewis, the housing minister. Let's look at the plan to
:09:31. > :09:32.transform this first and see whether it's a plan. When will we know which
:09:33. > :09:39.one have been chosen for transformation? By the Autumn
:09:40. > :09:44.Statement. Pretty much at the end of the year? No work on this can begin
:09:45. > :09:49.before 2017? The work in a sense of working with a local areas and
:09:50. > :09:52.looking at the plan will be starting straightaway but... How can you do
:09:53. > :09:58.that when you don't know the weather places are? We will work with local
:09:59. > :10:03.areas to identify the best places we can work. We will announce that by
:10:04. > :10:07.the Autumn Statement. You can't start the transformation until 2017?
:10:08. > :10:12.If there was physical work on the ground, yes, that will be later on.
:10:13. > :10:19.Towards the end of next year. -- this year. How long will it take to
:10:20. > :10:23.transform each state? That varies from estate to a state, and depends
:10:24. > :10:28.what needs to happen. It's complex work which takes time. Give me an
:10:29. > :10:35.average. It will depend on what the estate is. It depends on what needs
:10:36. > :10:39.to be done on any given estate. That's why we have to wait to see
:10:40. > :10:46.what the local area is. Do you have any idea what the average time it
:10:47. > :10:50.be? It could be a year, four years, it really will depend on what the
:10:51. > :10:54.local areas want to do. It will be done in conjunction with local
:10:55. > :10:56.residents and local authorities. Mr Cameron will be long gone from
:10:57. > :11:02.Downing Street by the time this transformation ever happens? No, he
:11:03. > :11:05.will still be Prime Minister at the time we start seeing the real
:11:06. > :11:10.benefit of this work going forward. How many do you reckon will be
:11:11. > :11:14.transformed widely still in Downing Street? From previous conversations
:11:15. > :11:19.with that, I'm not a big fan of setting fixed targets. We're only at
:11:20. > :11:24.the start of with local areas who will come to us to find what is
:11:25. > :11:29.appropriate to them and we will report that back in the next few
:11:30. > :11:32.months. What is the estimated total cost? It depends. Some areas have
:11:33. > :11:36.needed no public money whatsoever that it will vary from place to
:11:37. > :11:44.place. No public money to transform an estate? Some have been done with
:11:45. > :11:50.private funding. Which ones have been transformed with no private
:11:51. > :11:54.money? , no Government money? Keble Village, it's privately led, there's
:11:55. > :11:58.been a phenomenal piece of work done there. We've also got areas like
:11:59. > :12:01.Hackney which has been done by the housing association. More important
:12:02. > :12:04.in those areas, not just bringing back amenities and better quality
:12:05. > :12:09.places to live, but increasing density dramatically. I understand
:12:10. > :12:13.the purpose but you must have an estimated total cost in the budget
:12:14. > :12:23.between now and 2020? How much has been allocated to this project from
:12:24. > :12:26.the budget overall? We've allocated 140 million to do the work with a
:12:27. > :12:30.local areas. That is seed capital? What is the total cost? Once it
:12:31. > :12:35.worked in the open areas to identify what they need are, then we will
:12:36. > :12:40.report back by the Autumn Statement, the details. As things stand, you
:12:41. > :12:44.have no real timetable budget? We want a work of local areas, were not
:12:45. > :12:48.going to do this top-down control, but working with local areas and we
:12:49. > :12:54.will tailor it to take this forward. You've also said pension funds would
:12:55. > :12:58.bring up some money for this. How much of pension funds in the last
:12:59. > :13:04.five years spent on infrastructure in housing? We haven't yet
:13:05. > :13:08.managed... This is what this is about. There's about ?40 billion,
:13:09. > :13:16.different independent reports have circulated, want to invest in the
:13:17. > :13:19.property market. The possibilities for shared ownership... The
:13:20. > :13:25.Chancellor announced in 2011 plan to for shared ownership... The
:13:26. > :13:28.get ?18 billion of pension fund money infrastructure in things like
:13:29. > :13:35.housing. How much has come up so far? At the moment, I don't know. 1
:13:36. > :13:39.billion. Frankly, on past record, it's unlikely pension funds will
:13:40. > :13:43.contribute very much if anything to this. It depends on what we do in
:13:44. > :13:47.specific areas so for example, one thing the pension funds look that is
:13:48. > :13:51.a private rented sector which can be part of making a viable regeneration
:13:52. > :13:56.project. I would like to see shared ownership coming into that as well
:13:57. > :13:56.because there's an opportunity for them to see a return for investors
:13:57. > :14:00.because there's an opportunity for would provide more housing and at
:14:01. > :14:03.the higher end. Have you ask the pension fund how much they will put
:14:04. > :14:10.into this? We are talking to various lenders. Have you spoken to the
:14:11. > :14:16.pensions? Yes, just before Christmas I spoke to them. Have they given new
:14:17. > :14:21.indication? Yes, I'm not going to be able to outline that right here and
:14:22. > :14:25.now. This is pension fund money. It's from around the world,
:14:26. > :14:29.institution money, who wants to invest. There are confidentiality
:14:30. > :14:33.issues there. It is important we look at all avenues. All
:14:34. > :14:37.opportunities to make sure these people have a better opportunity in
:14:38. > :14:44.the future. I understand that. No one minister will argue with that.
:14:45. > :14:50.Where will they live while they are states are being rebuilt?
:14:51. > :14:58.Whilst the rebuild is going on, as it happened, it differs. If you look
:14:59. > :15:02.at some of the examples, I visited Hackney not too long ago, residents
:15:03. > :15:10.were moved out, some moved out whilst the work was going on and
:15:11. > :15:10.have now moved back. There are examples of where this is done and
:15:11. > :15:13.it is properly managed but what is key and it comes back to my opening
:15:14. > :15:17.point about working with local communities and residents, this will
:15:18. > :15:22.only go forward with their support in full knowledge of what we are
:15:23. > :15:26.planning. Again that will differ. At local residents say they don't want
:15:27. > :15:31.this it will not happen? We are not looking to impose this, it is about
:15:32. > :15:35.working with local residents. Will they have guaranteed right to come
:15:36. > :15:43.back to that locality if they move? Tenants will have an absolute
:15:44. > :15:45.guaranteed right. We are looking to increase supply. What about those
:15:46. > :15:50.who have bought the homes and on them in these estates, will they
:15:51. > :15:54.have a right to own their home back in the estate? People with freehold
:15:55. > :15:57.properties, if the regeneration goes on and we are clearing the estate
:15:58. > :16:01.and rebuilding will be bought out and they would use that equity to
:16:02. > :16:07.buy a home elsewhere like anybody else. It will be a matter of choice.
:16:08. > :16:15.It would have to be a compulsory purchase? It can be by negotiation
:16:16. > :16:19.or a compulsory purchase, this can be they from place to place. So they
:16:20. > :16:24.would sell their home to you or the agency and if they wanted to have
:16:25. > :16:28.two by two comeback in? Yes, as any freehold would. Tenants will have
:16:29. > :16:33.the right to come back. You talk about affordable housing but you
:16:34. > :16:41.include in that definition starter homes costing ?450,000 in London. In
:16:42. > :16:48.what way can an affordable home be priced at 17 times the average UK
:16:49. > :16:53.salary? Let's be clear, this is a misnomer, ?450,000, we put that as a
:16:54. > :16:56.maximum level and bear in mind these are first-time buyers. The average
:16:57. > :17:00.first-time buyer is well below that, so across England the average
:17:01. > :17:14.first-time buyer pays approximately 100 is the ?6,000. We take our 20%
:17:15. > :17:20.this skin. -- 170 ?6,000. Even with the 20% discount, it still huge
:17:21. > :17:24.multiple of average incomes. Even ?250,000 outside the United Kingdom,
:17:25. > :17:29.many people will not regard that and will not find that as a affordable.
:17:30. > :17:33.That is why, what we have to be clear about is look at what is the
:17:34. > :17:38.average price paid by a first-time buyer? The average price across the
:17:39. > :17:44.country is in the region of under ?140,000. If you get that with help
:17:45. > :17:49.to buy a 5% deposit, it's an opportunity for people to buy their
:17:50. > :17:51.own home. It's also important to extend shared ownership, in London
:17:52. > :17:58.you can come into shared ownership with a deposit of just ?3400. What
:17:59. > :18:06.is the average house price in Great Yarmouth? Your constituency? Just
:18:07. > :18:11.under ?200,000. The latest figures we have it is ?140,000 and that for
:18:12. > :18:16.many people will be beyond their reach as an affordable house. It
:18:17. > :18:19.seems your definition of an affordable house is very different
:18:20. > :18:24.from ordinary people's definition of an affordable house. Let's take my
:18:25. > :18:29.constituency, new homes being built at the moment. If you take one of
:18:30. > :18:35.those at ?150,000 and put a 20% discount on that and buy it with
:18:36. > :18:42.help to buy where you just need a 5% deposit that changes things. It's
:18:43. > :18:47.also important to extend shared ownership and that councils build
:18:48. > :18:56.more council homes as well. This is all part of the package. How much
:18:57. > :19:00.social housing did you build 2013, 2014? In the last five years I know
:19:01. > :19:08.we build more homes than 13 years of the Labour government. You build
:19:09. > :19:18.30,000 for rent in 2013, 2014, how many people are on the waiting list?
:19:19. > :19:21.Far too many. It is going to take you decades. This is why it is
:19:22. > :19:28.important we give everyone more opportunities to get into a home of
:19:29. > :19:31.their own. That is ownership, for most people affordable housing, to
:19:32. > :19:35.begin with at least is a chance to rent and you are doing very little
:19:36. > :19:41.to provide affordable housing which is rented. We are building
:19:42. > :19:49.affordable housing at the fastest rate in over 20 years. Affordable
:19:50. > :19:54.rent as well. You all may build 30,020 13, 20 14. 86% of the
:19:55. > :20:01.population want to own their own home. Starter homes, 55% of people
:20:02. > :20:04.in the private rented sector will be able to buy their own home compare
:20:05. > :20:10.to just 40%. The only way able to buy their own home compare
:20:11. > :20:15.make homes more affordable in a grand scale would be to build a lot
:20:16. > :20:20.more homes but you are residing over the lowest peacetime level of
:20:21. > :20:25.house-building by any government by a century. Is that not something to
:20:26. > :20:32.be ashamed of? Let's be clear about the numbers, the lowest level was
:20:33. > :20:35.under John Healey when it was 88 and 95,000, at one point we were within
:20:36. > :20:42.20,000 of building nothing. Your 95,000, at one point we were within
:20:43. > :20:46.average is still the lowest peacetime level. We need to go
:20:47. > :20:51.further. Do you accept that? I agree we have to go from much further but
:20:52. > :20:59.we came from a very low base. We have got the biggest building
:21:00. > :21:04.programme since the 1970s. You are now in power for your sixth year, is
:21:05. > :21:11.the harsh truth is not that for ordinary families in this country a
:21:12. > :21:15.decent home is now beyond their grasp? This is why it's hugely
:21:16. > :21:19.important we do everything we can to help more people have
:21:20. > :21:19.important we do everything we can to opportunities to get their own
:21:20. > :21:22.important we do everything we can to homes. I am proud that we have
:21:23. > :21:25.doubled the number of first-time buyers since 2010. After the crash
:21:26. > :21:32.people could not get a mortgage, house-builders were moving out of
:21:33. > :21:35.the market, this does a lot to help them come back through into the
:21:36. > :21:39.market and we want to do more to help small builders. We drive up
:21:40. > :21:43.supply whilst making sure we can support people on the demand side to
:21:44. > :21:51.have the opportunity to get into their own home. Leanne Wood is what
:21:52. > :21:56.is happening in Wales? It's a devolved responsibility. It's not
:21:57. > :22:00.quite as pressing a question as it is as I think it is in,
:22:01. > :22:06.quite as pressing a question as it London. When Plaid Cymru was in
:22:07. > :22:09.coalition with Labour we increased the supply of affordable housing.
:22:10. > :22:17.There was a Plaid Cymru Minister who did the target. I think this
:22:18. > :22:20.question about homes for rent is crucial. I am struggling to
:22:21. > :22:24.understand how in England there is going to be an increase in supply
:22:25. > :22:29.over all of affordable housing if the right to buy is extended to
:22:30. > :22:35.housing association homes because we know the previous rate to buy policy
:22:36. > :22:39.seriously increased the amount... That is why we have pledged to use
:22:40. > :22:44.the money from right to buy to build more homes which is something Labour
:22:45. > :22:50.never did. But it is not like for like. We'll have to leave it there,
:22:51. > :22:52.housing very much on the agenda and we will come back to it.
:22:53. > :22:57.Discrimination against transgender people need to be tackled the matter
:22:58. > :23:05.of urgency with reform in the NHS and the prison service at top
:23:06. > :23:10.priority. The goal of a quality is still a long way off. Amongst the
:23:11. > :23:13.recommendations by the Commons women and equality 's committee is that
:23:14. > :23:21.people should no longer have to declare their gender on passports
:23:22. > :23:22.and other official documents. Adam Wedge outwith the box to test the
:23:23. > :23:26.public temperature. -- went out with.
:23:27. > :23:36.Should you be required to put your gender on your passport or not? Are
:23:37. > :23:45.you getting a passport? My wife is. Issue putting her gender on it? I
:23:46. > :23:47.believe she has do. Is that good? If you asked me 20 years ago I would
:23:48. > :23:53.have said it was a daft question but today I would question it. Yes? Do
:23:54. > :24:00.you want to put it in yourself? I will put it in for you. Gender? I
:24:01. > :24:08.think so, I don't have a problem with it myself. What about people
:24:09. > :24:14.who are transgender? I don't know. Do you want to dig a little break?
:24:15. > :24:19.No, not breaking his stride, I would not either. How do you feel when you
:24:20. > :24:22.are made to tick the box? I don't like it, I don't think it's anything
:24:23. > :24:26.to do with anything, the other thing I don't like is when they want to
:24:27. > :24:28.know your age. You call up British Gas, what is your age? What does it
:24:29. > :24:34.have to do with you? It's like Gas, what is your age? What does it
:24:35. > :24:46.filling in a passport form but more pleasurable. Thank you. Thank you.
:24:47. > :24:53.What box do you think Ziggy stardust would have used? He was an alien, a
:24:54. > :24:56.Martian. You don't have to put anything if it is a person, it is a
:24:57. > :25:06.person. What do you call that? What is it? On a passport, what do you
:25:07. > :25:11.reckon? Should we had to stay our gender on our passports? Maybe
:25:12. > :25:15.reckon? Should we had to stay our security reasons perhaps yes but
:25:16. > :25:20.otherwise no. Let's see Russia or India or China or Thailand, when you
:25:21. > :25:23.make applications they need to see what gender you are so if the
:25:24. > :25:27.passport doesn't have it it will make the Visa application more
:25:28. > :25:33.difficult. You sound very well travelled. I am a Visa agent! At the
:25:34. > :25:37.airport they never check if I am actually a man. No, but you can see,
:25:38. > :25:42.so if you have a passport actually a man. No, but you can see,
:25:43. > :25:43.something different at least it actually a man. No, but you can see,
:25:44. > :25:50.pulls it up and you can see OK, let's have you in and if it came to
:25:51. > :25:55.a case of having to pull your trousers down to prove who you are
:25:56. > :25:57.then you've got to do it. We have put people into one category or
:25:58. > :26:00.another and it looks like the majority of people have said we
:26:01. > :26:08.should still put our gender on our passports. I am joined by the
:26:09. > :26:11.chairman of the equalities commission, Maria Miller and Kellie
:26:12. > :26:21.Maloney is boxing promoter was known as Frank Maloney. How should this
:26:22. > :26:26.work? As we have said in this report, it is the first report we
:26:27. > :26:29.have produced and we're proud it is an transgender issues, we are trying
:26:30. > :26:35.to make sure that gender does not get in the way of having official
:26:36. > :26:37.documents therefore everyone to use. At the moment transgender people
:26:38. > :26:41.feel it can be difficult to put themselves into male or female
:26:42. > :26:44.pigeonholes and indeed we don't think it necessarily adds much to
:26:45. > :26:48.the information the think it necessarily adds much to
:26:49. > :26:51.collecting. That is only one of a number of more than 30
:26:52. > :26:58.recommendations we have put forward to improve the lives of trans
:26:59. > :27:02.people. Do you agree it's difficult to categorise yourself, I would have
:27:03. > :27:07.thought it was clear if you are transgender going from man to woman
:27:08. > :27:13.or a woman to man who you are? I agree with you, I was so pleased to
:27:14. > :27:23.put my just bought -- passport and divers licence to female. Some
:27:24. > :27:23.put my just bought -- passport and people don't recognise with any
:27:24. > :27:27.gender so if they want to put something that is down to them but I
:27:28. > :27:33.and a lot of my friends who have gone through the same journey as me
:27:34. > :27:43.wanted to put the cross there. That's correct, transgender covers a
:27:44. > :27:47.wide range of people. 44% of people in the country realise that gender
:27:48. > :27:51.is quite a fluid design and that shows a real change in public
:27:52. > :27:56.opinion. I don't understand it and I am part of the transgender
:27:57. > :28:01.community. At my support group I keep learning different things every
:28:02. > :28:05.day. I think a lot of the other groups are using the trans-umbrella
:28:06. > :28:14.for their means. As far as I am concerned I am a woman and that is
:28:15. > :28:17.it. And a female to male is a man. Would you support the idea of
:28:18. > :28:19.removing someone's gender from official documentation, for example
:28:20. > :28:26.like a passport but also drivers license or other official documents?
:28:27. > :28:32.I think it is up to the individual. The point brought up is important,
:28:33. > :28:37.if that someone has made the transition, it is important that
:28:38. > :28:38.that is recognised legally that all public services support that and I
:28:39. > :28:42.think some of public services support that and I
:28:43. > :28:49.seen in our prisons recently show that that is still a real concern.
:28:50. > :28:53.That is where you might require official bodies to actually state on
:28:54. > :28:58.a form whether you are male or female otherwise you end up in the
:28:59. > :29:04.wrong sort of ward in a hospital. I think that is much more important
:29:05. > :29:05.than a passport or driver 's license. You would want to see it,
:29:06. > :29:11.because you could end up in the wrong sex prison and we know,
:29:12. > :29:16.tragically, some people have taken their own lives as a result of that.
:29:17. > :29:22.So will that is not confuse the issue? As I said this is one of just
:29:23. > :29:31.dirty recommendations. -- 30 recommendations. But it is quite
:29:32. > :29:38.important. The current process is quite long. Quite long. Intrusive.
:29:39. > :29:44.It involves being diagnosed with a medical condition which many trans
:29:45. > :29:48.people don't think they have. We want to change the process, so the
:29:49. > :29:52.point about passports is much broader, as a society we are quite
:29:53. > :29:54.transfixed on peoples gender and maybe that is not healthy for men,
:29:55. > :30:03.or anyone. What would you like to see happen in
:30:04. > :30:06.terms of transfer OBR? There's a legal side about how you would
:30:07. > :30:13.legally define yourself but what else would you do to do something to
:30:14. > :30:22.tackle the nation? I would like to see the NHS, doctors, schoolteachers
:30:23. > :30:25.aware of it. Some people have gone through troubles because the schools
:30:26. > :30:30.don't understand it. A lot of my friends talking about it, all we
:30:31. > :30:35.want to be is, why make special rules for us? We are happy in our
:30:36. > :30:39.lifestyle and we are contented, just give us the same treatment and
:30:40. > :30:43.respect you give to a normal woman and vice versa for a
:30:44. > :30:46.respect you give to a normal woman should be protected under those
:30:47. > :30:51.rules without having special rules. The NHS comes out of this quite
:30:52. > :30:56.badly. When we took evidence on public services from organisations
:30:57. > :31:03.and trans people, the NHS, there were considerable problems there
:31:04. > :31:05.throughout, not only accessing services but actually, even when
:31:06. > :31:08.specialist services and support it been prescribed by consultants, some
:31:09. > :31:13.GPs were refusing to take it forward and one of the things I feel very
:31:14. > :31:16.strongly about is that people who regulate the medical profession need
:31:17. > :31:19.to take a strong stance on this and they should be zero tolerance to any
:31:20. > :31:26.transfer OBR at what ever level in the NHS. That's the hardest part
:31:27. > :31:30.when you transition. It's a physical thing, a mental thing, and if you
:31:31. > :31:38.don't have help and support, that's why the suicide rate is higher than
:31:39. > :31:39.in any other group. There have been more discussion, though, about
:31:40. > :31:44.transgender. Do you think that there needs to be more debate? Is this a
:31:45. > :31:49.priority issue in terms of equality? I do, yes, and I dealt with a number
:31:50. > :31:56.of cases personally from people who have really struggled to negotiate
:31:57. > :32:00.the health service and dealing with things like discrimination,
:32:01. > :32:04.harassment, for the police to take it seriously, they're all kinds of
:32:05. > :32:09.different issues that, as a society, we have not got grips with yet. A
:32:10. > :32:14.lot of people just have not had any experience of this. Leanne is a
:32:15. > :32:21.politician and we'll see people in his surgery. I actually do some
:32:22. > :32:22.politician and we'll see people in in Swansea, there's a good
:32:23. > :32:31.supportive group there. That's good to know. Education at a young age,
:32:32. > :32:35.my generation need education. It is getting better, though. Young people
:32:36. > :32:40.and teenagers and people in their 20s are much more understanding. I
:32:41. > :32:45.talk at schools and it's fascinating the questions that the pupils ask
:32:46. > :32:49.you. And they are not frightened to ask? That's the great thing about
:32:50. > :32:56.it. Thanks very much. We welcome viewers from Scotland. You're now
:32:57. > :33:01.with the Daily Politics. Just when you thought you had of elections for
:33:02. > :33:04.a while it's time to think about them again, there will be one in
:33:05. > :33:09.Wales for example in just 113 days. I bet you can hardly wait. The Welsh
:33:10. > :33:13.Assembly and its 60 seats are up for grabs. We have been looking at the
:33:14. > :33:21.political landscape in Wales ahead of the election.
:33:22. > :33:26.Wales is getting ready for an election. Everyone knows you can't
:33:27. > :33:32.have an election these days without a TV debate. I don't want Wales and
:33:33. > :33:37.Britain to surrender our place in the world. This one was about the EU
:33:38. > :33:41.referendum. And this guy is not even a candidate. You didn't do it, it
:33:42. > :33:46.because you haven't got the power to do it because we've given that way
:33:47. > :33:51.to Brussels. His party are expecting to do well. They say the very fact
:33:52. > :33:54.the current First Minister of Wales prepare to debate shows Labour
:33:55. > :33:58.public think so too. It's the same old same old in Wales. This sort of
:33:59. > :34:05.idea of there being opposition politics has not happened. Plaid
:34:06. > :34:07.Cymru, the Lib Dems and the Labour Party said in the same area at the
:34:08. > :34:12.critical spectrum and so the fact Carwyn Jones is debating Nigel
:34:13. > :34:15.Farage shows is a massive deficit in terms of opposition because we're
:34:16. > :34:20.not yet in the assembly and yet he deems we are public the best
:34:21. > :34:29.opponents to actually represent two sides of an argument. We have been
:34:30. > :34:31.here before and we were here with Plaid Cymru in the 1970s and the
:34:32. > :34:37.1990s. Ukip other current vehicle for people who are unhappy. What we
:34:38. > :34:41.have to say is, what we have in Wales is a health service where
:34:42. > :34:47.there's more money spent, education where standards are at a rapid rate,
:34:48. > :34:50.the best investment figures for 30 years, unemployment lower than
:34:51. > :34:54.London, we focus on improving people's lives. Labour has
:34:55. > :35:00.controlled the Welsh Assembly since the first elections in 1999. It's
:35:01. > :35:04.never had an overall majority. Ruling instead as a minority
:35:05. > :35:07.Government or in a power-sharing arrangement. Polls suggest it could
:35:08. > :35:12.be heading that way again and the talk here is a coalition. There are
:35:13. > :35:19.60 seats up for grabs in the assembly. 40 of them are directly
:35:20. > :35:22.elected by constituency, the same as Westminster MPs. 20 are elected on a
:35:23. > :35:26.proportional representation bases from regional party lists. At the
:35:27. > :35:34.moment Labour controls the Welsh Assembly with 36, the Conservatives,
:35:35. > :35:36.14, Plaid Cymru, 11, and the Lib Dems, five. More people voted Welsh
:35:37. > :35:40.Conservative at the last general election in May than ever voted for
:35:41. > :35:48.Labour in assembly elections ever. Not just one election, but ever.
:35:49. > :35:51.This is a unique opportunity for us to break through and actually had a
:35:52. > :35:54.Welsh Conservative Government, otherwise it will be more of the
:35:55. > :35:58.same because the Liberals and Plaid Cymru have cut deals with labour
:35:59. > :36:02.time and time again to prop them up in a minority administration in
:36:03. > :36:06.Cardiff Bay. Plaid Cymru think they will pick up more seats. The party
:36:07. > :36:09.had plenty of coverage in the general election but failed to
:36:10. > :36:13.capitalise and were beaten into fourth place by Ukip on vote share
:36:14. > :36:18.and of course, it's a different battle ground this time around, at
:36:19. > :36:20.least it should be. The problem with devolution in Wales is people don't
:36:21. > :36:24.understand the difference between the national elections and the local
:36:25. > :36:28.elections in terms of what the issues should be, so within Wales we
:36:29. > :36:32.should be focusing on the devolved areas of Government. Those are
:36:33. > :36:39.education, health and reckon the Government in those areas be what
:36:40. > :36:43.the battles are fought. It always happens that the national issues and
:36:44. > :36:50.the views of the National party has an impact. Labour and the Tories
:36:51. > :36:53.have their fair share of UK wide issues, to defend, giving the
:36:54. > :36:56.smaller parties an opportunity. But quite how they capitalise on that
:36:57. > :37:02.could prove more critical to them internally than it does the seating
:37:03. > :37:11.plan in Cardiff Bay. And the leader of Plaid Cymru is
:37:12. > :37:16.with us today. Leanne Wood, is your New Year 's resolution for 2016 must
:37:17. > :37:23.try harder? My resolution for 2016 is to put before the people in Wales
:37:24. > :37:25.and alternative Government, and alternative programme, an
:37:26. > :37:30.alternative team of people who can run the Government better than the
:37:31. > :37:35.existing labour lot have done. Why was 2015 a big disappointment for
:37:36. > :37:43.you? We didn't gain any extra seats. You did not get that many votes.
:37:44. > :37:47.Even Ukip got more. Yes, that was a disappointment and I think the
:37:48. > :37:49.National Assembly is different. We are consistently polled higher in
:37:50. > :37:55.the National Assembly elections, so next May, I am hoping to sleep a
:37:56. > :38:05.different result. You have 11 assembly members of the moment. 14
:38:06. > :38:08.for the Tories, 34 Labour. Five Lib Dems. If you don't improve on the
:38:09. > :38:13.11, will you consider that, for you, it is your time up in your role? I'm
:38:14. > :38:17.not thinking of those lines at all for that no, I have a clear
:38:18. > :38:22.political project, around building a nation and we have got, in Wales, so
:38:23. > :38:26.many aspects of our national character, which have not yet been
:38:27. > :38:30.built. We are lacking in basic institutions can we have no banking
:38:31. > :38:35.and finance system for example. Criminal Justice is not evolved.
:38:36. > :38:37.and finance system for example. There was a lot to do in terms of
:38:38. > :38:40.building up a country and my party is in an important position to do
:38:41. > :38:45.that. What would you regard as a decent result on top of the 11 you
:38:46. > :38:49.already have? I very much want Plaid Cymru to be leading the Government
:38:50. > :38:53.after next May. We have had 17 years of a Labour Government in one guise
:38:54. > :39:01.or another, there's been some coalitions within that, but for one
:39:02. > :39:01.party to lead a Government for that length of time, I don't know of any
:39:02. > :39:06.other place in the world who has that. How many assembly members
:39:07. > :39:13.would you need? It's very difficult to predict figures. Forgive me, I'm
:39:14. > :39:17.not asking for a prediction but an aspiration. What would you hope to
:39:18. > :39:22.achieve? It's only five months away. I would hope to achieve a majority,
:39:23. > :39:27.obviously. It's unlikely. The system we have got makes it difficult for
:39:28. > :39:31.one party to form a majority. You are third in the polls at the
:39:32. > :39:36.moment, a couple of points out of Ukip. Yes, we have some work to do
:39:37. > :39:41.before May, I accept that. You don't seem, your party, your cause,
:39:42. > :39:48.doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Well, you might say that. I just
:39:49. > :39:54.did, I think. You did. Isn't it? There's a growing body in Wales who
:39:55. > :39:57.recognise the Government we have got is not as good as it gets and
:39:58. > :40:04.recognise that they have been taken for granted by that same party that
:40:05. > :40:06.has run the Government for that length of time and it is now time
:40:07. > :40:09.for a change and it only Plaid Cymru who's in position to really offer
:40:10. > :40:15.the change in Wales needs. Wales used to attract huge amount of
:40:16. > :40:19.inward investment, 15% of all investment coming into the UK. And
:40:20. > :40:24.it has really tailed off since devolution. Why? There may be a
:40:25. > :40:33.number of different reasons for that. One of which is that there has
:40:34. > :40:35.been, certainly in recent years, nobody promoting Wales outside the
:40:36. > :40:41.country and interestingly, yesterday, my party 's economic
:40:42. > :40:46.spokesperson announced that we want Wales to have a developed agency for
:40:47. > :40:50.the 21st-century, running back a brand which was ditched in the past
:40:51. > :40:55.in order to promote Wales abroad and then, of course, we would hope that
:40:56. > :41:03.such a body would increase Wales' inward investment, but I would not
:41:04. > :41:04.want to make a point that previous strategies which solely focused on
:41:05. > :41:08.inward investment have not worked for us in Wales. We need to do a lot
:41:09. > :41:12.more to encourage and support indigenous businesses and that's why
:41:13. > :41:15.we have put together a package of support for small and medium-size
:41:16. > :41:20.enterprises which formed the backbone of the economy. Inward
:41:21. > :41:24.investment has got worse since devolution. There may be a
:41:25. > :41:28.connection or not. Statistically it's got a lot worse. Have the NHS
:41:29. > :41:33.got worse since devolution? The NHS it's got a lot worse. Have the NHS
:41:34. > :41:37.has got worse under Labour's stewardship in Wales. No doubt about
:41:38. > :41:42.that. If you compare the outcome between Wales and other parts of the
:41:43. > :41:47.UK, we are not good in many areas and if you look at things like the
:41:48. > :41:50.number of doctors we have per head of the population, Wales has fewer
:41:51. > :41:54.doctors per head of the population than any other part of UK and, in
:41:55. > :41:58.fact, there's only three other countries in the EU that are in a
:41:59. > :42:05.better position than we are. There has been a lack of workforce... A
:42:06. > :42:10.worse position? Yes, so workforce planning is a key issue that the
:42:11. > :42:10.worse position? Yes, so workforce Government has failed to get
:42:11. > :42:13.worse position? Yes, so workforce grips with over many years now.
:42:14. > :42:18.Thank you. We will talk to a lot more about these issues in the May
:42:19. > :42:23.election. Let's continue on elections. Why did Labour lose last
:42:24. > :42:26.year 's general election? The former Labour Cabinet minister Margaret
:42:27. > :42:29.Beckett has written a report about the failure but the reporter has yet
:42:30. > :42:33.to be released amidst accusations that the leadership are sitting on
:42:34. > :42:37.what might be uncomfortable reading for Jeremy Corbyn and his
:42:38. > :42:40.colleagues. Former leadership contender Chuka Umunna has added his
:42:41. > :42:46.voice to those calling for the report to be released, talking to
:42:47. > :42:49.Eleanor Garnier. I think it's absolutely essential to this report
:42:50. > :42:52.is published. I was interviewed for it along with many different people
:42:53. > :42:56.who contributed to the general election effort and I think if
:42:57. > :43:03.anybody is serious about as kicking the Tories out in 2020, and before
:43:04. > :43:07.that delivering a Labour victory across the country, not just in
:43:08. > :43:13.London, in 2016, we need to learn the lessons and ensure that we get
:43:14. > :43:17.into office. So we can deliver on Labour values. What do you think the
:43:18. > :43:21.report is going to say? I would be most surprised if there isn't some
:43:22. > :43:26.comment about our perceived economic competence in the eyes of the voter,
:43:27. > :43:33.but, beyond that, I think too often people in the lead up to the general
:43:34. > :43:34.election went always too sure what the Labour Party stood for and what
:43:35. > :43:38.our policies where. Chuka Umunna there. The polling expert John
:43:39. > :43:41.Curtis had a phone report out today about why the pollsters got it so
:43:42. > :43:46.wrong in the run-up to the general election and he joins us now from
:43:47. > :43:50.Glasgow. Ruth Lea, on Chuka Umunna, and what you are saying, presumably
:43:51. > :43:54.you would like to see what it Margaret Beckett's report. Of
:43:55. > :44:00.course, anyone is interested in politics and polls will be delighted
:44:01. > :44:05.the Labour Party would publish support, particularly to see the
:44:06. > :44:09.opinion polls the Labour Party was conducting before the election. It
:44:10. > :44:12.has been claimed that those opinion polls suggested Labour's position
:44:13. > :44:16.was much weaker than the polls published, so those of us were
:44:17. > :44:22.interested in trying to find out why the polls got it wrong. It's
:44:23. > :44:24.something of a disappointment that information has not been put into
:44:25. > :44:27.the public domain. Yawn that in truth, I suspect we would largely
:44:28. > :44:32.agree that the evidence so far in the public domain is economic
:44:33. > :44:35.competence and a lack of abroad story of what Labour stood for was
:44:36. > :44:39.central to their problems. It's not clear when that report will be
:44:40. > :44:43.published by understand it will be published in due course in the next
:44:44. > :44:47.week or so but let's turn to your report. You don't have that
:44:48. > :44:50.information yet from the Labour Party 's internal investigation.
:44:51. > :44:53.What were your conclusions when you looked at by the pollsters got it
:44:54. > :45:00.wrong in the general election? This report is based on a survey which
:45:01. > :45:03.was very simple. We went out during the course of four months on the
:45:04. > :45:05.back end of last year and asked people how they voted in the
:45:06. > :45:11.election and the crucial thing we found out is that we were actually
:45:12. > :45:16.able to replicate the results. We have a 6-point lead in the survey
:45:17. > :45:20.for that you may say so what? The so what is that much of the commentary
:45:21. > :45:24.about why the opinion polls got it wrong essentially said, people are
:45:25. > :45:27.not being honest with the pollsters and not to themselves. Tories are
:45:28. > :45:31.reluctant to declare their preference for Labour voters are not
:45:32. > :45:36.willing to admit they did not make it to the polls. If that were true,
:45:37. > :45:40.any other survey conducted, however it was done, should, come up the
:45:41. > :45:44.same problem with lover don't find enough Conservative voters but
:45:45. > :45:45.British social attitudes does not have this problem as indeed is also
:45:46. > :45:49.true of the British election study full for the crucial thing about
:45:50. > :45:53.both these surveys if they are done very, very differently from the
:45:54. > :45:57.opinion polls. They are done as pure random poverty samples and in
:45:58. > :46:01.particular, they spent a lot of effort trying to get hold of the
:46:02. > :46:04.people that they want to interview were as opinion polls only have two
:46:05. > :46:09.or three days. One of the crucial things we find in today's report is
:46:10. > :46:14.that those people who voted Labour are easier to find, easy to contact,
:46:15. > :46:18.than Conservative voters. Look at those who responded to
:46:19. > :46:20.than Conservative voters. Look at social attitudes on the first
:46:21. > :46:23.interview, we have a Labour lead forth it's only when we are
:46:24. > :46:27.persistent but the Conservative voters are uncovered so that it is
:46:28. > :46:32.one indication. The problem with the polls if they were not simply bring
:46:33. > :46:35.in Conservative voters. It would be how the polls are done and it's
:46:36. > :46:42.pretty crucial in understanding them.
:46:43. > :46:48.So not so much shy Tories but unavailable and difficult to find,
:46:49. > :46:53.how do you fix that? That is difficult because no opinion poll
:46:54. > :46:58.can afford to spend four months finding out how people will vote.
:46:59. > :47:02.One idea is to try to find out what, if any, are the demographic
:47:03. > :47:06.characteristics which will help to identify these easily available
:47:07. > :47:13.labour voters. Secondly, I think that perhaps it would be better if
:47:14. > :47:20.instead of us having an opinion poll every single day of the election
:47:21. > :47:23.campaign we had fewer and that more effort was taken to try to get hold
:47:24. > :47:33.of people and that at least might end up with fewer polls but they
:47:34. > :47:38.would be more accurate. Thank you. Sad news whilst we have been on air,
:47:39. > :47:43.it has been reported that Alan Rickman, star of stage and screen
:47:44. > :47:53.has died at the age of only 69 of cancer. The same as David Bowie
:47:54. > :47:59.earlier this week. A sad day indeed. Nicky Morgan, the Education
:48:00. > :48:00.Secretary will announce plans to extend a scheme to recruit the best
:48:01. > :48:05.graduates into children's social care across England. The programme
:48:06. > :48:10.was launched in 2013 in response to serious concerns over quality of
:48:11. > :48:16.workers in the sector. Here a clip from a promotional video. This is to
:48:17. > :48:22.thank you. Being yourself. Poor keeping it real. I did not feel like
:48:23. > :48:25.I was one of your caseloads. Thank you for what you have done for me
:48:26. > :48:31.over the years. You have been there for everything. It's a brilliant
:48:32. > :48:35.buzz to see people do well and think for themselves and feel you have
:48:36. > :48:41.made a difference. That is really satisfying. It's definitely been a
:48:42. > :48:47.pleasure to have known you and have had you in my life. That is
:48:48. > :48:53.wonderful isn't it? That makes it all worthwhile.
:48:54. > :48:59.Joining us are the chief executive of front line in Dunstable and a
:49:00. > :49:13.professor of social work at Kingston University who is in Salford. How
:49:14. > :49:20.does front line deferred? We go to careers fairs and universities and
:49:21. > :49:24.try to attract people, we have been able to put that into the times top
:49:25. > :49:29.100 careers list for the first time ever. It's also an intensive
:49:30. > :49:37.programme, two years and you qualify at the end of the first 12 months
:49:38. > :49:38.and the idea we are trying to recruit people to come into social
:49:39. > :49:44.work and work directly with children and families but also people who
:49:45. > :49:48.have decent sense of social purpose and want to address social
:49:49. > :49:58.disadvantage and social work has the power to tackle that. Do you support
:49:59. > :50:01.this idea? My first concern is that this is a privilege group of
:50:02. > :50:05.students coming into social work who are much better funded. They are
:50:06. > :50:12.sent out to families after only a few weeks of basic training. I am
:50:13. > :50:17.concerned about the fast track nature of the programme and how
:50:18. > :50:17.rushed it is. I am also concerned nature of the programme and how
:50:18. > :50:21.that the students are being promised they can move into management and
:50:22. > :50:25.leadership roles very quickly, promotion within the civil service
:50:26. > :50:28.and move away from the front line quickly before they have much
:50:29. > :50:34.experience. Thirdly I am concerned that this does not address the big
:50:35. > :50:38.issue which is we have seen a 70% increase in child protection
:50:39. > :50:41.issue which is we have seen a 70% load in the last six years when the
:50:42. > :50:45.government has reduced funding to local government by 40%. It doesn't
:50:46. > :50:50.tackle the root cause of the problem, recruiting social workers
:50:51. > :50:55.in the first place? It makes a big condition towards it. There are
:50:56. > :51:00.around 4000 social work posts vacant in England right now and recruiting
:51:01. > :51:04.new talent to join the ranks of existing social workers is an
:51:05. > :51:13.important issue to address. Is it not to tier system? -- two. Not that
:51:14. > :51:21.all, the people who qualify quickly become colleagues who have qualified
:51:22. > :51:25.with the same license to practice. And they have qualified after having
:51:26. > :51:29.had more time in practice with families before they get given a
:51:30. > :51:35.licence than on many other routes. So it's not true to say they are not
:51:36. > :51:39.fully prepared for the realities of child protection work. Is it not the
:51:40. > :51:42.case we desperately need more social workers, people who want to take
:51:43. > :51:47.this up and if there is a body or a scheme who are going to promote the
:51:48. > :51:52.provision of social work more positively then that's a good thing?
:51:53. > :51:59.It's a good thing to promote social work, it's an important profession
:52:00. > :52:02.doing important work. But there are three and a half thousand social
:52:03. > :52:07.work students qualifying each year and front line I think will be
:52:08. > :52:11.qualifying very quickly about 200 students per year. Whilst a lot of
:52:12. > :52:15.money is going into this programme for this privileged group of
:52:16. > :52:21.students, most are having to fund themselves or survive on a bursary
:52:22. > :52:33.of around 300 ?300,000 a year. There is an inequality and we need social
:52:34. > :52:33.workers to build up wisdom, experience and stay at front
:52:34. > :52:34.workers to build up wisdom, practice which is not being promised
:52:35. > :52:40.workers to build up wisdom, for these students, they can move
:52:41. > :52:45.into Manor ship and -- management and leadership quickly. This
:52:46. > :52:49.argument around leadership is interesting, our position is that
:52:50. > :52:53.social work practice is a leadership exercise, people need to build great
:52:54. > :52:57.relationships very quickly with families, the police, health
:52:58. > :53:02.visitors, the court. They need to set out a vision for a family and
:53:03. > :53:09.help a family change in difficult circumstances. That is what we mean
:53:10. > :53:10.by leadership so yes, some of the people on the programme may
:53:11. > :53:13.eventually go and become team managers and future directors in the
:53:14. > :53:16.social services, which would be no bad thing, but when we talk about
:53:17. > :53:20.developing leadership and social work we mean developing people who
:53:21. > :53:26.can be great social workers. Leanne Wood Samu used to be a social
:53:27. > :53:32.worker. I qualified as a social worker to work as a probation
:53:33. > :53:38.officer. How would you attract people to try the profession? It's
:53:39. > :53:42.more about retaining the staff already in the profession because
:53:43. > :53:46.it's a very difficult job. There are high levels of and load and stress
:53:47. > :53:53.and people often burnt out quickly. I would argue that you could put in
:53:54. > :53:57.things like more supervision and support for existing social workers
:53:58. > :54:01.and cut the workloads and that would have a marked difference. So you
:54:02. > :54:06.agree that this is money resources that is being used in perhaps the
:54:07. > :54:09.wrong way? If people are being fast tracked into management it won't
:54:10. > :54:13.deal with the problem social services departments face which is a
:54:14. > :54:18.lack of social workers on the ground. That's what we need. We need
:54:19. > :54:23.extra people in the service. This whole situation has not been helped
:54:24. > :54:28.by the cuts agenda to social services departments. If those
:54:29. > :54:31.departments were properly invested in and the existing social workers
:54:32. > :54:34.had the correct amount of support under reasonable workload then there
:54:35. > :54:42.would not be these issues staff retention. On the issue of staff
:54:43. > :54:43.retention how will you counter that because in the end they will have
:54:44. > :54:51.similar bombs to existing trainees in social work? Yes, and the reality
:54:52. > :54:55.is that it differs across the system in England. Some local authorities
:54:56. > :54:59.keep hold of social workers very well, develop them and they can
:55:00. > :55:04.remain in practice and get promoted. The early indications are very
:55:05. > :55:08.promising, 90% of the people who join the programme have gone into
:55:09. > :55:13.practice as a qualified social worker as opposed to under 60% for
:55:14. > :55:20.other routes so that is encouraging. I'm sorry, we're running out of time
:55:21. > :55:25.so I had to stop you, thank you both very much. Cast your mind back to
:55:26. > :55:30.2003, the Iraq war. The playing cards, that the US military issue to
:55:31. > :55:33.help troops identify the most wanted members of the Saddam Hussein
:55:34. > :55:40.government. Saddam Hussein himself was famously the ace of spades with
:55:41. > :55:45.his son is the ace of clubs and hearts. The cards were called the
:55:46. > :55:52.personality identification playing cards. And enterprising Eurosceptic
:55:53. > :55:55.has now produced a pack of cards to help Eurosceptics identify the
:55:56. > :55:58.enemy, dangerous Europhiles. The king of hearts is young college of
:55:59. > :56:51.her -- Jean-Claude Juncker. These cards are already being used,
:56:52. > :56:59.Dan Hannan tweeted a picture of himself with them. The creator of
:57:00. > :57:06.the cards is in our Liverpool studio, how long did it take to
:57:07. > :57:10.research all these and the courts? Strangely enough the courts which
:57:11. > :57:19.are all freely available on the Internet probably took me about a
:57:20. > :57:24.week -- the courts. It was then a question of whittling them down to
:57:25. > :57:28.the final selection. I wish you would come and do some research
:57:29. > :57:33.the final selection. I wish you me, that is very quick! Is it right
:57:34. > :57:39.to complain Iraq with what you call the European regime -- to compare? I
:57:40. > :57:44.think there is no comparison at all, the regime of Saddam Hussein was a
:57:45. > :57:52.very different proposition. It's just for the satire. I can see a bit
:57:53. > :57:55.of fun but the American king of spades was chemical Ali who murders
:57:56. > :58:03.thousands of Kurdish rebellions, yours is a Belgian whose only the
:58:04. > :58:11.indiscretion is eating too many waffles. Yes but I am not making a
:58:12. > :58:17.comparison between Saddam Hussein and any of the Eurocrats. That may
:58:18. > :58:22.be so, so why did you put the hammer and sickle on the back of every
:58:23. > :58:27.card? It's just an interesting moniker, it's commonly widely used
:58:28. > :58:37.amongst the Eurosceptic community. It is a freely available design.
:58:38. > :58:39.It's a bit of a hackneyed design, a lot of people use it but it's just
:58:40. > :58:43.seemed the most appropriate. Thank you for joining us, very
:58:44. > :58:47.interesting. Take a card, any card, not that one. Thanks to our guest, I
:58:48. > :58:54.will be back this evening with Michael Portillo, Nicola Roberts,
:58:55. > :58:56.join us at 1145 BBC One and back here on BBC Two at noon with daily
:58:57. > :59:02.politics. Goodbye. Let your New Year start with a bang
:59:03. > :59:09.and visit an explosive new China.