26/01/2016

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:00:37. > :00:44.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:45. > :00:48.Europe reintroduces border controls as the winter weather fails to stem

:00:49. > :00:50.But could refugees who gain citizenship soon

:00:51. > :00:56.A ?130 million tax bill for Google, but has the internet giant been

:00:57. > :01:02.asked to pay a derisory amount on the billions it makes in the UK?

:01:03. > :01:04.EU leaders say they are bending over backwards to keep

:01:05. > :01:07.Britain in the union, so how would they react if Britain

:01:08. > :01:18.We will ask the also-ran of Labour's leadership contest.

:01:19. > :01:29.But the truth is, you don't know me from Adam, or should I Saed say Eve?

:01:30. > :01:32.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

:01:33. > :01:34.of the programme today is the former Labour

:01:35. > :01:36.leadership contender, and very good loser,

:01:37. > :01:46.ever since Jeremy Corbyn got the better

:01:47. > :01:48.of Liz and her colleagues in last summer's leadership contest,

:01:49. > :01:50.the Labour leader and his allies have

:01:51. > :01:53.been accused of conspiring to take over party institutions and mould

:01:54. > :01:56.Well, this morning, one of the party's

:01:57. > :01:57.decision-making bodies, the NEC, or National Executive Committee,

:01:58. > :01:59.is reported to be voting on changes to

:02:00. > :02:03.Our expert of arcane internal Labour Party procedures is Ross

:02:04. > :02:14.I hope you like that title, Ross! What are they trying to do? I will

:02:15. > :02:17.take it over good loser! I woke up this morning pretty stoked up the

:02:18. > :02:22.prospect of the National executive committee discussing its own terms

:02:23. > :02:25.of reference, so normally this is an annual affair that doesn't trouble

:02:26. > :02:31.is particularly, but this year it is a complete battle ground, a proxy

:02:32. > :02:35.battle for control of the party. There are a number of papers flying

:02:36. > :02:40.around, one written by John Landsman, close to Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:41. > :02:44.and as I understand it, the ones most likely to come up for

:02:45. > :02:47.discussion are ones presented by the trade unions and another by the

:02:48. > :02:55.general secretary. The suspicion amongst many was that there could be

:02:56. > :02:58.an attempt to give the NEC, the bit of the Labour machine when Jeremy

:02:59. > :03:07.Corbyn is closest to control, a say on staff appointments. What is very

:03:08. > :03:11.much up for discussion is how the policy-making machinery works, and

:03:12. > :03:17.that matters, because if the NEC can get control to a greater extent of

:03:18. > :03:21.the decisions that labour makes about its policy in between party

:03:22. > :03:25.conferences, that could give Jeremy Corbyn a hugely useful lever to try

:03:26. > :03:30.and exert a bit more control over a party large swathes of which don't

:03:31. > :03:35.seem to make much of him. And that would give the NEC more power over

:03:36. > :03:40.for example the policy-making powers of MPs. How likely is it to happen?

:03:41. > :03:44.There will be a big fight about it today, but there will be a fight

:03:45. > :03:50.about other things, I am told. There is not universal happiness over the

:03:51. > :03:54.fact that Jeremy Corbyn's party aid has been removed from the National

:03:55. > :03:57.executive committee, and forget all the technicalities and the jargon

:03:58. > :04:01.and the endless arguments, what really matters here is a balance of

:04:02. > :04:08.Power fight, and what fundamentally will matter is who controls Labour's

:04:09. > :04:13.NEC, because those who control this key committee get a very good say in

:04:14. > :04:16.what gets debated at conference, would ultimately, however they

:04:17. > :04:21.fiddle with terms of reference, has a crucial say in the Labour Party's

:04:22. > :04:24.Wallasey, sit in between all the arcane intricacies, there is a real

:04:25. > :04:28.fight over what Labour believes, but it is not a fight that will resolve

:04:29. > :04:35.the fundamental problems of what happens for example on Trident. If

:04:36. > :04:38.Jeremy Corbyn and a handful of colleagues think one thing and the

:04:39. > :04:41.majority of the party thinks something else. Expect a lot of

:04:42. > :04:45.sound and fury, but maybe not the clearest of conclusions today. Line

:04:46. > :04:56.Ross Hawkins, thank you very much. Liz, do you approve of these

:04:57. > :05:02.changes? What is important is that the women make decisions -- the way

:05:03. > :05:07.we make decisions is as open as possible. I think we have had a

:05:08. > :05:10.great improvement, we have representatives from different

:05:11. > :05:13.regions of the country, and I would like to see the MPF go further and

:05:14. > :05:16.involve members of the public, because we don't just need to be

:05:17. > :05:20.talking to ourselves, we need to talk to the public to get the right

:05:21. > :05:25.policies for the future. So all I care about is that policy-making is

:05:26. > :05:29.as wide and open as possible and not too centralised.

:05:30. > :05:31.as wide and open as possible and not wrong with Jeremy Corbyn wanting to

:05:32. > :05:34.mould party institutions like wrong with Jeremy Corbyn wanting to

:05:35. > :05:39.NEC in his own image so that they wrong with Jeremy Corbyn wanting to

:05:40. > :05:45.mind he won that leadership contest so overwhelmingly? We have had the

:05:46. > :05:50.reshuffle recently, and I have been really clear, it is absolutely his

:05:51. > :05:53.mandate to appoint who he wants, but when we are making policy for the

:05:54. > :05:54.mandate to appoint who he wants, but future, during the leadership

:05:55. > :05:59.campaign, Jeremy Sloane she future, during the leadership

:06:00. > :06:02.to involve members more, and we need to make sure that there are voices

:06:03. > :06:06.from across the party and the country. And you don't think at the

:06:07. > :06:11.moment that is the case? Teasing his wing of the party is trying to take

:06:12. > :06:15.over the NEC? I haven't really been involved in what is happening on the

:06:16. > :06:19.NEC, but I don't think all see making should be centralised. Let's

:06:20. > :06:26.turn our face to the public, because that is who we have to convince.

:06:27. > :06:32.Eight young member of the NEC, Becks Bailey, says none of the proposed

:06:33. > :06:35.changes should happen. Anybody who knows Becks Bailey knows

:06:36. > :06:36.changes should happen. Anybody who woman with a mind of her own, and

:06:37. > :06:42.she has been a representative woman with a mind of her own, and

:06:43. > :06:47.to see more young voices, regional voices,

:06:48. > :06:48.to see more young voices, regional shouldn't be centralised, make it

:06:49. > :06:51.wide and opened and inclusive, because we need the ideas and the

:06:52. > :06:54.commitment of members because we need the ideas and the

:06:55. > :06:55.country if we are going to win again.

:06:56. > :07:02.country if we are going to win will be a vote on Trident before the

:07:03. > :07:03.Easter recess. That would be before Labour has completed its defence

:07:04. > :07:10.review. If that happens, which is review. If that happens, which is

:07:11. > :07:10.whipped? I position on this. It is a really

:07:11. > :07:22.important issue position on this. It is a really

:07:23. > :07:24.national-security. And I, like many Labour MPs

:07:25. > :07:27.national-security. And I, like many to see a world that is free of

:07:28. > :07:31.nuclear weapons, and I believe that we achieve that through

:07:32. > :07:35.multilateralism. I do believe that unilaterally getting rid of our

:07:36. > :07:39.nuclear weapons... But should the vote be whipped in favour of

:07:40. > :07:43.renewing Trident or against? Our current party policy is to renew

:07:44. > :07:44.Trident and the deterrent, and I think it is important that our party

:07:45. > :07:49.does think it is important that our party

:07:50. > :07:51.national-security. So at that point where they haven't completed their

:07:52. > :07:57.defence review, should it be whipped by Jeremy Corbyn to the current

:07:58. > :07:59.policy or against? I think it would always be

:08:00. > :08:00.policy or against? I think it would issues as national security that we

:08:01. > :08:03.have one clear position as The question for today

:08:04. > :08:08.is all about Liz's former colleague, the one-time Shadow

:08:09. > :08:09.Chancellor Ed Balls. He lost his seat at

:08:10. > :08:11.last year's general election and this week he gave a TV

:08:12. > :08:14.interview in which he said there is one job he

:08:15. > :08:16.definitely does not want. At the end of the show

:08:17. > :08:27.Liz will give us Now, the internet giant Google

:08:28. > :08:37.is to pay ?130 million in back taxes here in the UK over

:08:38. > :08:39.the next ten years. It had been hailed as a "major

:08:40. > :08:42.success" for George Osborne But in the Commons yesterday,

:08:43. > :08:48.with the Chancellor absent from the despatch box,

:08:49. > :08:51.many MPs were less than impressed I am proud of the work this

:08:52. > :09:00.Government has done to make our tax system internationally competitive,

:09:01. > :09:02.but also to make sure that those Mr Speaker, the statement made

:09:03. > :09:06.by Google at the end of last week is solid evidence that companies

:09:07. > :09:08.are changing their models and reviewing their structures

:09:09. > :09:10.because we have strengthened The Chancellor has managed to create

:09:11. > :09:20.an unlikely alliance between myself, the Sun newspaper, the Mayor

:09:21. > :09:24.of London and, according to reports, All of us think that this deal

:09:25. > :09:32.is not the, in quotes, "major success" the Chancellor

:09:33. > :09:35.claimed at the weekend. Does the Minister agree that

:09:36. > :09:39.Google may be the symptom, but is probably not the cause,

:09:40. > :09:43.of these problems? And that those lie with the immense

:09:44. > :09:45.complexity of the tax system, rendered more problematic

:09:46. > :09:47.by the globalisation of tax liability, and that therefore

:09:48. > :09:51.fundamental reform of the corporate tax base probably now

:09:52. > :09:56.needs to be considered? Last year, in the Budget before

:09:57. > :09:58.the general election, the Chancellor said,

:09:59. > :10:00."We will not tolerate, let the message go out,

:10:01. > :10:03.there will be an end to this Given there was ?24 billion of UK

:10:04. > :10:13.revenues over this period, but that experts have said Google

:10:14. > :10:16.should have paid tax of almost ?2 billion, does 130 million really

:10:17. > :10:19.meet the test of no tolerance? Will the Minister agree with me that

:10:20. > :10:22.in the mad world of corporation tax on international companies

:10:23. > :10:25.that the sum of money is at once derisory, insubstantial, unlawful,

:10:26. > :10:32.and completely unacceptable to the public, and will he therefore

:10:33. > :10:35.agree with me that it is time for a complete overhaul

:10:36. > :10:40.of the corporate tax system? I'm joined now by John Culliane from

:10:41. > :10:51.the Chartered Institute of taxation. Google have agreed to pay this

:10:52. > :10:57.amount, ?130 million, in backdated tax. Is that the best deal that

:10:58. > :11:01.could have been reached? I do think anybody from the outside could

:11:02. > :11:03.possibly say it is the best possible deal, but I do think some of the

:11:04. > :11:08.comment is wrong and actually quite dangerous. I think the last thing we

:11:09. > :11:13.need at the moment is a complete overhaul of corporate tax, and that

:11:14. > :11:16.is because everybody agrees if we're to make the multinationals pay their

:11:17. > :11:20.fair share, there has got to be a global consensus as to how you about

:11:21. > :11:24.things. To change our tax system away from a global consensus

:11:25. > :11:30.unilaterally, we do the reverse of any good, it would open up more

:11:31. > :11:36.differences that the multinationals could exploit. Do you agree? I think

:11:37. > :11:39.people who work hard pay their full taxes. They want to see a full tax

:11:40. > :11:45.system and they don't believe that is what we have got at the moment.

:11:46. > :11:49.It is all to no pagan secret. We don't know what Google earns, what

:11:50. > :11:52.they own what profits they make, although Margaret Hodge, as you know

:11:53. > :11:56.used to be chair of the Public Accounts Committee said they earned

:11:57. > :12:02.?6.4 billion last year in advertising and sales in the UK, and

:12:03. > :12:08.to end up paying what is the equivalent of ?13 million just seems

:12:09. > :12:11.wrong. I gather the French government are pursuing them for ?1

:12:12. > :12:16.billion of tax, so why can't we do that here? The one thing we feel

:12:17. > :12:18.confident about is their global profits because they have been gone

:12:19. > :12:22.into in great detail by the securities exchange commission. The

:12:23. > :12:29.exchange they are regulated on in the States. And in the last full

:12:30. > :12:33.year, 2014, that is reported, they paid about 20% tax globally. I'm

:12:34. > :12:39.sure the vast majority of that was paid in the states. If you had a

:12:40. > :12:43.whiskey producer in the UK, at 20% or whatever of its sales were in

:12:44. > :12:47.Japan or 30% in the states, it could pay nothing in the states under

:12:48. > :12:53.international rules, because most of the value is produced in the UK. So

:12:54. > :12:58.we have to develop international rules, we have to put pressure on

:12:59. > :13:05.those countries, Ireland, Luxembourg and so on, who open up that

:13:06. > :13:08.multinationals can exploit, but that we have to build on the rules, and

:13:09. > :13:14.not throw out the baby with the bath water. But you do accept that they

:13:15. > :13:17.are making the most, quite legitimately of legal tax loopholes,

:13:18. > :13:20.and where people will be surprised is that even if the UK tax

:13:21. > :13:25.authorities cannot tell how much they made in terms of profits here,

:13:26. > :13:28.they can look at sales and turnover, and they can look at those figures

:13:29. > :13:34.and look at them and think, they just don't have any comparison. I

:13:35. > :13:39.think to move taxes to sales and turnover, you have value added tax

:13:40. > :13:45.and it is the customer who ends up paying those taxes by and large.

:13:46. > :13:50.They pay 20% of their profits in tax globally, which is pretty much the

:13:51. > :13:56.rate we would apply if we had access to the entire global profits, so a

:13:57. > :14:00.lot of the planning, you might ask how they get from a US headline rate

:14:01. > :14:07.of around 30% down to 20%, and that is because the US tax system is even

:14:08. > :14:13.more context was a blue than ours. And isn't that the point, that it is

:14:14. > :14:18.complicated, and it is not the same as a multinational company. People

:14:19. > :14:23.will be no doubt outraged by the small amount of tax that they are

:14:24. > :14:27.paying. Rightly so. They also have these companies, armies of lawyers

:14:28. > :14:32.and armies of people at their disposal to make the most of legal

:14:33. > :14:36.tax avoidance schemes, so would it really be worth HMRC doing things

:14:37. > :14:43.like court cases, trying to get more tax out of people. The basic issue

:14:44. > :14:46.is we need more openness and transparency if we are going to get

:14:47. > :14:51.anywhere near this fairer tax system, and it can't be beyond the

:14:52. > :14:56.wit of man. We can put a man, if not a woman, on the moon, we can find

:14:57. > :15:02.cures for cancer, but we can't make Google pay tax? That does seem to be

:15:03. > :15:07.the problem. Yesterday minute is one unable to say what tax rate Google

:15:08. > :15:11.were paying. As soon as you start aggregating down company by company,

:15:12. > :15:17.it does become very difficult, and UK revenue have gone and got

:15:18. > :15:22.something, if the French are asking for more, and I don't believe they

:15:23. > :15:27.have settled yet,... Our government isn't asking for more. They should

:15:28. > :15:30.collaborate, and international collaboration between tax

:15:31. > :15:36.authorities is the way to get this situation under control.

:15:37. > :15:44.Do you think Labour should have done more? At the way the economy has

:15:45. > :15:47.changed even since we were in government, it is moving very fast,

:15:48. > :15:52.and the whole issue of the global economy and how we can make it work

:15:53. > :15:54.in terms of tax and in different parts of the country, is a really

:15:55. > :15:58.big issue for Labour in the future. But what if the war gaming

:15:59. > :16:03.was about re-negotiating the UK's Yesterday grandees of British

:16:04. > :16:08.and European politics spent the day And our Ellie had a thrilling

:16:09. > :16:32.time watching it all. They call it War Games. Simulation

:16:33. > :16:38.of how Britain's EU discussions might go. I think it will be a good

:16:39. > :16:43.discussion for other countries. Their one never be a United States

:16:44. > :16:50.of Europe. It is confusing, illegal and not effective. This is David

:16:51. > :16:53.Cameron, OK it is the former Foreign Secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind, but

:16:54. > :16:57.he is playing the part of the British PM trying to get a deal in

:16:58. > :17:01.Europe. It was very interesting in that sense I can remember when I was

:17:02. > :17:06.Foreign Secretary being involved in discussions around the table and it

:17:07. > :17:10.was not that different. The key sticking point is not the same as

:17:11. > :17:14.saying no surrender. It means I have priorities and I will not budge on

:17:15. > :17:20.my priorities, but if there are different ways of reaching the

:17:21. > :17:25.solution, I am open to alternatives. The cabinet proposals that he wants

:17:26. > :17:30.to have an independent decision, how he can support his own population.

:17:31. > :17:35.This is common sense amongst European heads of state and

:17:36. > :17:38.government. On the other hand, what is not a consensus is to

:17:39. > :17:46.discriminate people who work within the EU. There are some red lines and

:17:47. > :17:49.we will have to find possibly alternative action to come to what

:17:50. > :17:57.the Europeans are seeking and the British are wanting. The delegates

:17:58. > :18:02.are back around the table and they are talking about what would happen

:18:03. > :18:08.if Britain voted to leave the EU. They are talking about Brexit as if

:18:09. > :18:13.it was a divorce. I appreciate many people in this room will be

:18:14. > :18:19.disappointed, but we all, including ministers of the British Government,

:18:20. > :18:23.have to respect the decision. After the divorce there will be a lot of

:18:24. > :18:32.irrationality and the consequences will be very negative because of

:18:33. > :18:37.this irrational attitude and reactions, years and years of

:18:38. > :18:42.negotiating legal consequences. It will be a big problem for

:18:43. > :18:47.competitiveness for both the UK and Europe because we will waste a lot

:18:48. > :18:53.of time and money just for the legacy of the Brexit. As far as

:18:54. > :18:56.Ireland is concerned I want to make it clear this is an absolutely

:18:57. > :19:03.devastating decision Britain has taken. We regard it as an unfriendly

:19:04. > :19:08.act. Peace in Ireland would be set back considerably if as a result of

:19:09. > :19:12.Britain leading the European Union we had to reintroduce border posts

:19:13. > :19:18.along the border in Ireland to collect tariffs on EU exports to the

:19:19. > :19:23.UK and vice versa, and also if we had to possibly even prevent EU

:19:24. > :19:27.immigrants entering Britain. We would have to have passed for

:19:28. > :19:33.controlled on the border. The effect that would have on the life of

:19:34. > :19:36.people in the northern half of Ireland and the atmosphere of peace

:19:37. > :19:43.we have created through years and years of hard work would be very bad

:19:44. > :19:47.indeed. It was a day of gaming. The real-life negotiations will take

:19:48. > :19:53.much longer and if Britain does vote out, the talking and the shouting

:19:54. > :19:57.could go on for years. And Conservative peer Norman Lamont

:19:58. > :20:05.who was at that event joins us now. What was it like? It was a simulated

:20:06. > :20:09.negotiation and what I thought was interesting was it highlighted some

:20:10. > :20:14.of the trade office. My session was done on the assumption there had

:20:15. > :20:20.been a vote to leave. What then was going to happen in the negotiations?

:20:21. > :20:25.Of course Britain wants access for manufactured goods. It was access

:20:26. > :20:30.for financial services. The EU was in a position to refuse the latter,

:20:31. > :20:33.but not the former, so that is a difficult situation. Then you have

:20:34. > :20:37.agriculture where we import a lot from them with a big deficit, so it

:20:38. > :20:43.is a question of putting the deficit against the surplus and seeing if

:20:44. > :20:47.one could come out with a solution. A lot of them were making speeches

:20:48. > :20:56.knowing that this was before in the real world a vote, so with they were

:20:57. > :21:00.trying to chill the blood. Do you think for effect, but also to be

:21:01. > :21:06.realistic about what might happen in the event of Britain voting to come

:21:07. > :21:09.out in terms of negotiations with former EU partners? Observers

:21:10. > :21:13.described the negotiations in the morning as a debate and the

:21:14. > :21:19.discussions after Britain voted for exit as a lynch mob. Is that fair? I

:21:20. > :21:24.did not feel like I was lynched. But a lot of it was done for effect. I

:21:25. > :21:33.had not made up my mind how I am going to vote. Which way? I am not

:21:34. > :21:38.saying. I can see pluses and minuses. I was interested to do this

:21:39. > :21:43.negotiation in order to highlight it. I do not think there would be a

:21:44. > :21:48.big disaster to leave, I do not think it will be the end of the

:21:49. > :21:55.world. I do believe financial services, a key issue, I think it is

:21:56. > :21:59.solvable. What were the terms you proposed in those negotiations in

:22:00. > :22:06.terms of Britain having left, what were the terms you put forward? I

:22:07. > :22:11.put forward a comprehensive free trade agreement, similar to that

:22:12. > :22:14.that Britain has with Canada which would include manufacturers,

:22:15. > :22:21.services and agriculture. I also offered to pay something into the EU

:22:22. > :22:25.budget. Is that very different from what is currently the situation?

:22:26. > :22:28.Some might argue that if you are wanting to pull out, you should pull

:22:29. > :22:34.out and make a much bigger break and that negotiations with Canada took

:22:35. > :22:36.years. Given that much of our regulations are already harmonised

:22:37. > :22:52.with the EU, and will remain so, it is much easier for Britain to

:22:53. > :22:54.be accommodated in a free-trade agreement than it is with Canada.

:22:55. > :22:57.But we would not be subject to the lawmaking of the EU in future unless

:22:58. > :23:08.we wanted to do so. Are you tempted by his terms of trade? No, I am not.

:23:09. > :23:11.So many people think we can have access to the single market without

:23:12. > :23:16.paying a price and we can pick and choose which regulations we want

:23:17. > :23:20.without any consequences. One week it is Turkey, one week we can be

:23:21. > :23:24.like Canada, the next week like Norway, and there will be

:23:25. > :23:29.consequences if we leave and I do not think the British people are

:23:30. > :23:33.stupid. They know there is no such thing as a free lunch and I do not

:23:34. > :23:39.want to be a rule maker now and go to that to be ruled taken. I to have

:23:40. > :23:46.our say over the European Union as well as the benefits.

:23:47. > :23:54.You were prepared to pay something. How much with the UK pay under your

:23:55. > :23:58.terms? Given we would be proud of common agricultural policy, we could

:23:59. > :24:02.have a large reduction in our budget contribution. But there might be

:24:03. > :24:08.areas where we wish to incorporate where it might be to our advantage,

:24:09. > :24:15.like science and universities. You admit it would not be free? It would

:24:16. > :24:21.be a tiny amount compared to the 20 billion now. But let me say this, in

:24:22. > :24:25.response to Liz, trade is not determined by politics. What you

:24:26. > :24:35.need to trade is a willing buyer and a willing seller. But the terms

:24:36. > :24:40.could take a long time? Indeed. How America trades with Europe, how

:24:41. > :24:45.Australia trades with Europe... But the world of the WTO ruled on car

:24:46. > :24:50.imports and manufacturing imply 10% tariffs which would have a terrible

:24:51. > :24:58.effect. There is no evidence it would be 10%. There is no way they

:24:59. > :25:03.would impose 10% tariffs on cars. After wrenching as a way... Britain

:25:04. > :25:10.is the biggest customer for German cars. There is no clear evidence

:25:11. > :25:15.they would be tariffs at that sort of rate, but there is a point about

:25:16. > :25:19.how much goodwill they would be. Liz's point and the point raised in

:25:20. > :25:23.the war-gaming, they would be furious. These EU partners who had

:25:24. > :25:30.done their utmost to keep Britain in, why would they want to do any

:25:31. > :25:36.deal at the beginning? Frankly, that is a terrible argument. Is it? The

:25:37. > :25:42.idea we should be blackmailed to be staying into it because people would

:25:43. > :25:48.be angry. No argument about the length to get agreement? It would

:25:49. > :25:55.take two years. Everything remains the same, the world does not

:25:56. > :26:00.collapse. This is an organisation that was founded to promote peace,

:26:01. > :26:05.friendship, good neighbourliness. We are a big neighbour of the EU, it

:26:06. > :26:09.does not do for them to say we are going to be angry with you because

:26:10. > :26:15.you have democratically chosen to lead our club. That is pretty poor.

:26:16. > :26:19.Based on your experience, do you think Britain could get better terms

:26:20. > :26:26.if we voted to come out, and the associated, and had a second

:26:27. > :26:30.referendum? That is a possibility. I believe that were Brexit to happen,

:26:31. > :26:35.and it is possible the EU would be so shocked they would make an even

:26:36. > :26:41.better offer. That would be a prize worth chasing. I want to ask whether

:26:42. > :26:45.you think in the current circumstances in the global economy

:26:46. > :26:48.where there are risks with what is happening in China and with oil,

:26:49. > :26:53.whether you think it is worth Britain to go through all of this

:26:54. > :26:59.when our economy needs the ability in the future? It is important to

:27:00. > :27:05.have a vote on it and it is important it is changed since we

:27:06. > :27:11.joined originally. I made my maiden speech on joining the EU. It was not

:27:12. > :27:15.called the EU. It has changed dramatically. The whole idea that

:27:16. > :27:21.trade would stop with the EU is absurd. It depends on who buys and

:27:22. > :27:25.took the selling. The government is not doing any contingency planning

:27:26. > :27:32.for a British vote to leave the EU. Should there be? We need to know the

:27:33. > :27:36.risks on exports for our financial services, for workers' right and

:27:37. > :27:42.what companies would do if we left Europe in terms of those rights.

:27:43. > :27:46.People have the right to know what the alternative is and it is

:27:47. > :27:50.important that happens. The government has tabled a motion in

:27:51. > :27:53.the Commons setting out some of the rules for the EU referendum because

:27:54. > :27:58.our Parliamentary process has to be gone through. That will fuel

:27:59. > :28:02.speculation that David Cameron is preparing for a referendum in June.

:28:03. > :28:06.Does that indicate that is happening? I think they would like

:28:07. > :28:12.to have it in June and it is possible. They may have to cut a few

:28:13. > :28:17.corners with the process. It will be a tight squeeze, I think July is

:28:18. > :28:23.more likely. But they want to avoid being pushed into next year when

:28:24. > :28:23.there are French and German elections which would complicate the

:28:24. > :28:26.whole thing. Now, immigration is set to play

:28:27. > :28:29.a central role in the forthcoming There is reported to be anxiety

:28:30. > :28:33.in Number 10 that the referendum could coincide with a fresh wave

:28:34. > :28:36.of migrants crossing At the weekend Jeremy Corbyn visited

:28:37. > :28:39.the migrants' camp in Calais and called for Britain to take

:28:40. > :28:41.thousands more migrants. "Everyone who wants to come

:28:42. > :28:44.to Britain and has a connection should be free to submit

:28:45. > :28:46.an application for processing And added that, "We're

:28:47. > :28:51.talking 3,000 people. Meanwhile out campaigners have been

:28:52. > :28:56.arguing that some of the hundreds of thousands of migrants already

:28:57. > :29:00.in mainland Europe could gain access to Britain under free movement rules

:29:01. > :29:05.if they were able But just how quickly

:29:06. > :29:10.could that happen? Germany, Hungary, Sweden and Italy

:29:11. > :29:15.have taken in the highest number of refugees over the course

:29:16. > :29:18.of the EU's migrant crisis. In Germany, citizenship

:29:19. > :29:21.is conditional on eight Applicants also need to demonstrate

:29:22. > :29:27.they can speak the language, respect the German constitution

:29:28. > :29:32.and have a clean criminal record. In Hungary people applying to become

:29:33. > :29:36.citizens can apply after eight years But for refugees this process

:29:37. > :29:43.is speeded up and they need to be there for three years

:29:44. > :29:47.in order to qualify. Refugees need to have lived

:29:48. > :29:50.in Sweden for four years before And in Italy, where there

:29:51. > :29:56.were nearly 60,000 asylum applications last year,

:29:57. > :30:00.refugees need to wait five years However, gaining citizenship

:30:01. > :30:06.within the EU is determined by individual nations,

:30:07. > :30:09.so while these rules are currently correct there is nothing

:30:10. > :30:12.to stop member states changing their citizenship rules

:30:13. > :30:16.in order to make it harder for refugees to become

:30:17. > :30:18.citizens or to speed Let's talk to our European

:30:19. > :30:36.Correspondent Damian Grammaticus Tell us about the latest ideas being

:30:37. > :30:40.put forward to deal with the migrant crisis, particularly this idea that

:30:41. > :30:46.Greece could be kept out of Schengen. Various things have been

:30:47. > :30:52.floated and discussed. The one concrete thing that we have had

:30:53. > :31:00.which the commission here have been discussing today was an approval by

:31:01. > :31:05.European countries yesterday, by Ministers meeting yesterday, to ask

:31:06. > :31:08.the commission to ready the powers to extend the temporary border

:31:09. > :31:12.controls that we have in some places in Europe, so let me just mention

:31:13. > :31:16.that first. Those are the checks we have seen put in place on some

:31:17. > :31:20.borders between Sweden and Denmark, Germany and Austria. Six companies

:31:21. > :31:25.have asked for the right to put those controls in place for a

:31:26. > :31:29.further up to two years. At the moment they will expire in May. That

:31:30. > :31:34.is one thing commission is looking at. There is potentially more

:31:35. > :31:40.temporary controls, but on the question of Greece, this has been

:31:41. > :31:43.raised by several countries frustrated at what they see as the

:31:44. > :31:49.lack of ability by Greece to stop the flow of people in. What the

:31:50. > :31:54.commission has said is that there is no process to suspend or remove

:31:55. > :31:57.someone from Schengen. What there is is a process to tighten up controls

:31:58. > :32:03.at some borders if there is a risk and a threat to stability into the

:32:04. > :32:09.from the flow of people, and that is a process that they may go down to

:32:10. > :32:13.look at. Greece's position in Schengen is a different issue. I

:32:14. > :32:19.look at. Greece's position in badly to any idea to suspend them

:32:20. > :32:26.from Schengen. Is the European Commission in general in panic mode?

:32:27. > :32:30.They have reacted very badly. What they said was, first of all that

:32:31. > :32:34.that would do nothing to change the situation, to stop people getting on

:32:35. > :32:39.boats and heading to Greece, because Greece is the unique, it doesn't

:32:40. > :32:43.share a land border with any other Schengen country, so even if you get

:32:44. > :32:50.into Greece, you still have to leave either by aeroplane or crossing a

:32:51. > :32:54.land border out of the Schengen area to get back in somewhere else, so

:32:55. > :32:59.what practical difference it would make is unclear, and what the Greeks

:33:00. > :33:02.have said is it is simply trying to isolate Greece, will worsen the

:33:03. > :33:07.situation and have dramatic humanitarian consequences in Greece

:33:08. > :33:12.if you try to corral people, and there has been a plan put forward by

:33:13. > :33:18.the Belgians to create huge processing camps in Greeks, which

:33:19. > :33:22.the Greeks are very much against. So that is strongly resisted by Greece,

:33:23. > :33:25.and hard to see how that can happen. The commission feeling very much

:33:26. > :33:29.under pressure from both sides, because it has countries that are

:33:30. > :33:33.very concerned about the numbers who potentially may still come this

:33:34. > :33:36.year. At the same time, it has a plan that it has had in place for

:33:37. > :33:39.several months, agreed with country to try to tackle the flow and limit

:33:40. > :33:45.the flow, and that hasn't been delivering. And what the spokesman

:33:46. > :33:47.said to me today, we are trying to save Schengen by implementing

:33:48. > :33:50.Schengen. They want that plan followed through on.

:33:51. > :33:57.Damian Grammaticas, thank you very much.

:33:58. > :33:58.We're joined now by Ukip's immigration spokesman,

:33:59. > :34:02.He's been making a speech this morning arguing that Britain's

:34:03. > :34:04.ethnic minorities could play a decisive role

:34:05. > :34:08.Also here is the Labour MP David Lammy.

:34:09. > :34:15.Why are you trying to bring race into the EU debated referendum? I'm

:34:16. > :34:18.not trying to bring race into it, and just saying that there is a

:34:19. > :34:22.group of people who have been ignored for many years, and we also

:34:23. > :34:26.see that there is a concern by the ethnic community that likes

:34:27. > :34:29.immigration, wants it, but is equally concerned about large-scale

:34:30. > :34:33.migration, and they should have their voice as part of this debate.

:34:34. > :34:37.You say they have been ignored. Who has been ignoring them? You don't

:34:38. > :34:43.hear about it. This is the first time we have raised issues about the

:34:44. > :34:50.lack of ethnic communities such as my own that would want to hear. But

:34:51. > :34:53.most BME voters want to stay in. Absolutely, and you see that from

:34:54. > :34:57.the research they did for their booklet, but the research also said,

:34:58. > :35:00.very clearly, the one of the reasons they have been concerned about

:35:01. > :35:04.Europe and the debate is that we have had this noise and anger in the

:35:05. > :35:10.debate, which I have been trying over the years to dissipate and talk

:35:11. > :35:17.about more factually, but 60% of them want to have something like an

:35:18. > :35:23.Australian points -based system, 60% are concerned about the inequality

:35:24. > :35:27.in the system that treats European citizens more favourably than those

:35:28. > :35:30.from outside, and as David will know in his community, there are those

:35:31. > :35:32.people who have come from African states who can't get jobs here

:35:33. > :35:37.because of our highly skilled Visa network. Grannies can't come over as

:35:38. > :35:41.easily through visas in Pakistan because of the system this

:35:42. > :35:45.Government has put in place to try to deal with EU migration. A bit

:35:46. > :35:50.manic, Ukip are within their rights to appeal for the votes of BME

:35:51. > :35:54.people in Britain, and to back their case to come out. They can do that,

:35:55. > :36:00.they did it at the general election, and just 3% of getting minorities

:36:01. > :36:02.voted for them. They did it in the old by-election, everyone said they

:36:03. > :36:08.would win and they lost because all of the evidence is that Britain's

:36:09. > :36:13.ethnic minorities, as diverse as they are, and it is very patronising

:36:14. > :36:16.to talk about Indian grannies coming over, and to put all black people

:36:17. > :36:21.together as if they are all Paul when there are doctors and lawyers

:36:22. > :36:25.and teachers, the overwhelming majority of Britain's ethnic

:36:26. > :36:30.minorities want to stay because they are recognising the benefits and

:36:31. > :36:34.nervous about the risks. That is not what I get when I'm talking to

:36:35. > :36:37.people. I'm trying to make the very clear point that there are people in

:36:38. > :36:41.the community that I have spoken to have have said why is it I get every

:36:42. > :36:44.guilty to get my grandmother to come to a wedding, but if someone has a

:36:45. > :36:52.Spanish or German grandmother, they can come over easily. Why could my

:36:53. > :36:55.Irish grandmother come here easily, but my black American grandfather or

:36:56. > :37:04.Jewish grandmother faced difficulties in the Visa system?

:37:05. > :37:09.That is needs to be made more equal. I can't stand the caricature about

:37:10. > :37:13.the people in this country from the Indian subcontinent, many of whom

:37:14. > :37:17.are doctors, accountants, lawyers, you are suggesting that they would

:37:18. > :37:23.vote on Europe purely on the basis of whether granny can come over for

:37:24. > :37:28.a wedding. 25% of businesses in London are run by ethnic minorities.

:37:29. > :37:35.Why is there this caricature coming from Ukip? Why are you trying to

:37:36. > :37:38.divide one group of those who commit the country from another group? Why

:37:39. > :37:43.did you recognise that many who are here who have a darker skin are

:37:44. > :37:47.second, third, fourth generation immigrants who of course recognise

:37:48. > :37:50.the benefits of Europe. The work we have done an anti-discrimination,

:37:51. > :37:55.agency workers, minimum paid leave, paternity and maternity, all of that

:37:56. > :37:59.is why I expect they will be voting to stay in Europe. Is it you are in

:38:00. > :38:03.favour of one sort of immigration because it helps you further your

:38:04. > :38:07.case to have Britain come out of Europe rather than a different form

:38:08. > :38:10.of migration which is from the EU? I want to see a more ethical and equal

:38:11. > :38:16.migration system. Whether David leaves that that is part of what I

:38:17. > :38:19.was looking at, I was looking at the culture of the B Blaugrana with,

:38:20. > :38:26.where I was born, I think that is the fairest and most... But you are

:38:27. > :38:31.dividing the community by using two different types of immigration. I am

:38:32. > :38:35.listening to people's concerns, and this is what people are saying about

:38:36. > :38:38.the Visa system in place. They are saying that the Visa system has been

:38:39. > :38:42.put in place to restrict those from non-EU countries because it cannot

:38:43. > :38:46.deal with the immigration issues. And I don't just talk about

:38:47. > :38:49.immigration in relation to that, I talk about the freedom aspects, the

:38:50. > :38:54.communities that have come here from the Commonwealth, fully understood

:38:55. > :38:57.about freedom, we had over 2 million Indians fought for us in the Second

:38:58. > :39:00.World War and then they had a fight to get their own independence after

:39:01. > :39:05.that. Nelson Mandela made it clear that he believes that Britain was

:39:06. > :39:08.the best democracy in the world, and the UK Parliament was the best

:39:09. > :39:13.democratic institution. You said it, and million Indians died fighting

:39:14. > :39:16.for us, they fought for the European project and they are not now going

:39:17. > :39:22.to vote on the basis of whether granny can come over for a wedding!

:39:23. > :39:25.They fought for Britain to get rid of a European dictator who was

:39:26. > :39:29.killing and murdering people, they didn't fight for the European Union

:39:30. > :39:34.or the European economic community. That is a perversion of history. Is

:39:35. > :39:39.there a point that non-EU immigrants are discriminated against because of

:39:40. > :39:44.the system or the Government's attempt to bring down net migration,

:39:45. > :39:46.because that is the only area of immigration can tackle, and in that

:39:47. > :39:52.sense, there is a disco nation against people from the

:39:53. > :39:55.Commonwealth. I don't like this business of one person is

:39:56. > :39:59.discriminated against. Sadly discrimination exists in society,

:40:00. > :40:03.and it affects many people from all sorts of backgrounds, and we all

:40:04. > :40:09.fight against it. And Europe has been engaged in that fight, and

:40:10. > :40:12.many, many of written's ethnic minorities recognise that, and I

:40:13. > :40:18.suspect in London in May we will see lots of people from Europe able to

:40:19. > :40:21.vote in that election and voting for Progressive parties precisely

:40:22. > :40:27.because of that anti-racist, anti-discrimination fight. Liz, in

:40:28. > :40:31.your constituency and uric spears of campaigning, ethnic minority

:40:32. > :40:33.communities do have concerns as well about immigration and what some

:40:34. > :40:38.people would say is uncontrolled immigration. People have concerns

:40:39. > :40:43.about immigration, but I don't like the way that Ukip tries to set your

:40:44. > :40:50.fringe groups against one another and create fear of the other. That

:40:51. > :40:54.is exactly what happened when immigration happened in the 1950s

:40:55. > :41:00.and 1960s, and that is what Ukip are trying to do now. I represent a very

:41:01. > :41:03.diverse constituency, Leicester West, and I know that people are

:41:04. > :41:06.going to be voting on what it is going to do, what will this

:41:07. > :41:12.referendum mean for their jobs, their businesses, what will it mean

:41:13. > :41:16.to people's rights at work, and a bigger issue, which is what kind of

:41:17. > :41:21.country are we? Are we a country that is confident and proud and open

:41:22. > :41:26.and can engage with the rest of the world? Or are we going to turn our

:41:27. > :41:30.back on that and go back to a narrow nationalism or nostalgia? I think

:41:31. > :41:34.the British people have a more positive and optimistic outlook, and

:41:35. > :41:38.that is what will win it. That is the reaction

:41:39. > :41:40.that is what will win it. That is Of course, and they have often use

:41:41. > :41:44.the line that we are trying to divide, but I am trying to make it a

:41:45. > :41:48.whole equal affair, to recognise we are in a modern world. I'm English

:41:49. > :41:52.by birth, British by nationality and a global citizen, and we should be

:41:53. > :41:55.outwardly looking and globally trading, and what we have is and

:41:56. > :41:57.easier Larry T about the trading, and what we have is and

:41:58. > :42:02.Union, looking at something that was a project at a time we didn't have

:42:03. > :42:05.the Internet... Half a project at a time we didn't have

:42:06. > :42:12.goes there, half our imports come from there. We should be looking at

:42:13. > :42:18.ideas of our future. What about China and Brazil and other emerging

:42:19. > :42:24.economies if we are outside of the EU. That is deeply patronising. The

:42:25. > :42:27.Labour Party talks about taxation but

:42:28. > :42:29.Labour Party talks about taxation things like Oldman sacks and Morgan

:42:30. > :42:32.Stanley who are funding the leave campaign, and

:42:33. > :42:34.Stanley who are funding the leave ideas about looking after the

:42:35. > :42:39.poorest in this country when you are in an argument that is supported by

:42:40. > :42:43.the big corporate is? Just before we move

:42:44. > :42:45.the big corporate is? Just before we said about the country we are, is

:42:46. > :42:48.Jeremy Corbyn in the right place, saying we

:42:49. > :42:48.Jeremy Corbyn in the right place, migrants from Calais, and we should

:42:49. > :42:55.be terms of taking more of the main? I

:42:56. > :42:55.certainly think that we should be doing

:42:56. > :43:02.certainly think that we should be children, we have seen some terrible

:43:03. > :43:04.examples, and we should... Should we taking anybody who has a connection?

:43:05. > :43:07.We should hold the taking anybody who has a connection?

:43:08. > :43:11.the commitment he made earlier in the year. There are some who believe

:43:12. > :43:14.the commitment he made earlier in that if we pull out of Europe,

:43:15. > :43:17.somehow we will not be affected by what is happening, and

:43:18. > :43:19.somehow we will not be affected by the case. The only

:43:20. > :43:20.somehow we will not be affected by this migration crisis is if we work

:43:21. > :43:20.with others. up the drawbridge and hope the rest

:43:21. > :43:30.of the world goes away. up the drawbridge and hope the rest

:43:31. > :43:32.Stephen Woolfe and David Lammy, thank you.

:43:33. > :43:34.Now, our guest of the gay was a Shadow Minister

:43:35. > :43:38.Then she stood for the Leadership of the Labour Party and won a mighty

:43:39. > :43:54.But the truth is you don't know me from

:43:55. > :44:05.We have to convince people who voted Conservative and Liberal Democrat

:44:06. > :44:28.Now, I think I am going to be the Labour leader that the Tories

:44:29. > :44:31.Were you spending too much before the Lehman Brothers

:44:32. > :44:39.Yes, I think we should have reigned spending in before the crash,

:44:40. > :44:45.but that didn't cause the crash which was global.

:44:46. > :44:59.Do you really have to have him in your

:45:00. > :45:04.He said things in this contest that are important.

:45:05. > :45:07.I have a long way to go, I know that,

:45:08. > :45:11.but I am going to continue to make the case that we must be a modern,

:45:12. > :45:13.relevant party that can win elections, regain people's trust

:45:14. > :45:22.and change the country for the better.

:45:23. > :45:25.If Jeremy Corbyn does become the leader, at what point does

:45:26. > :45:27.the Labour Party stop becoming your Labour Party?

:45:28. > :45:31.The party you feel you could be part of?

:45:32. > :45:35.I could no longer leave the Labour Party than I could leave

:45:36. > :45:40.How does it feel that you are the person they least

:45:41. > :45:51.Why, when you set out with the messages that

:45:52. > :45:55.You know what, I don't do this because I want to be loved.

:45:56. > :45:58.I do it because I want to change the world

:45:59. > :46:07.and because I want to kick the Tories out.

:46:08. > :46:16.I hope you enjoyed that, Liz Kendall. Happy days. It feels such a

:46:17. > :46:22.long time ago because so much has happened. How are you adjusting to

:46:23. > :46:27.life as a backbencher? I am loving it, I am proud to be the MP for

:46:28. > :46:32.Leicester West and I want to help my party in any way I can to get us

:46:33. > :46:38.back into government. Obviously things have been easier personally

:46:39. > :46:41.over the last couple of months, not being on the front line, but I am

:46:42. > :46:47.determined to play my full role in future because I still believe we

:46:48. > :46:52.are a party that is best placed be in government and to improve the

:46:53. > :46:58.lives of people in this country. Will you do it without being a

:46:59. > :47:03.rebel? I am not a rebel. You have voted against the Labour whip and we

:47:04. > :47:09.know your views on Trident and you voted against the air strikes in

:47:10. > :47:14.Syria. That was a free vote. Yes, it was, but you are seen as voting

:47:15. > :47:19.against the Labour leadership. That is not who I am, I want to serve my

:47:20. > :47:24.party and get us back into government. There are big issues we

:47:25. > :47:28.have to address if we are to do that. On the economy, skills and

:47:29. > :47:36.opportunity and a whole bunch of other issues. On the economy how do

:47:37. > :47:41.you feel as the party being the anti-austerity party? Let's take a

:47:42. > :47:44.step back. We have seen through the various reports that came out about

:47:45. > :47:49.why Labour lost the election, that trust on the economy is one of the

:47:50. > :47:55.biggest issues. If you are not trusted on the economy, you will not

:47:56. > :48:02.win an election. Will they be trusted with John McDonnell? I hope

:48:03. > :48:07.so. What is a credible centre-left position after the crash? How will

:48:08. > :48:11.we create the high skill, high-tech jobs of the future? How will we make

:48:12. > :48:15.sure that everybody sees the benefits of the growth and it does

:48:16. > :48:21.not just go to a few? Those arguments and the ones you made

:48:22. > :48:25.during the campaign failed to inspire the Labour electorate. You

:48:26. > :48:28.said Labour needed to listen to the electorate and reassure them about

:48:29. > :48:33.issues they cared about before the party will get a hearing. When it

:48:34. > :48:39.came to the Labour Party electorate, did you not listen? There are two

:48:40. > :48:43.reasons why I think I lost. Firstly, people did not agree with my

:48:44. > :48:49.analysis about why we lost the general election and they did not

:48:50. > :48:53.feel I set out an inspiring enough reason for the future. I became a

:48:54. > :48:58.little bit of the eat your Greens candidate. Although I stick by what

:48:59. > :49:03.I said in terms of why we lost, that was not the best way to win an

:49:04. > :49:08.internal party election. There were issues like defending these schools,

:49:09. > :49:15.if it was a good school it did not matter how big would be set up,

:49:16. > :49:20.spending 2% on GDP for defence. We are now doing that. But that did not

:49:21. > :49:28.chime with the Labour Party electorate which you are super far

:49:29. > :49:37.away from. It would be offensive to the Labour Party electorate... Yes,

:49:38. > :49:42.we know. Where I am now is where we are focused on having a positive

:49:43. > :49:45.message for the future. There was a big question on labour and the

:49:46. > :49:48.economy and on skills and opportunity. I joined the Labour

:49:49. > :49:53.Party because I think everybody should have the chance to fulfil

:49:54. > :49:57.their potential and the changes in the economy means it is difficult

:49:58. > :50:03.for people to get skills and to get on. Thirdly, there is support

:50:04. > :50:08.amongst older voters. Our message for people who are over 65 has got

:50:09. > :50:13.to be about decent pensions and health and social care, but people

:50:14. > :50:19.who are 65 have much more different lives than in the past. Some are

:50:20. > :50:24.still working... Is anyone still listening to this in your party? You

:50:25. > :50:30.said you will stay in the Labour Party. You will stand again in 2020?

:50:31. > :50:37.Yes, definitely, I hope the people in Leicester will give me the

:50:38. > :50:41.chance. But you were the only person not to support the Welfare Bill? Was

:50:42. > :50:48.that a mistake because of where your party is then? She was right to say

:50:49. > :50:52.people did not trust us on welfare. I said if we were going to make

:50:53. > :50:58.changes to what the government proposed, we would have to show how

:50:59. > :51:02.we pay for them. But it was not distinctive enough from what the

:51:03. > :51:07.Tories were saying and that was your problem. Ultimately I care about

:51:08. > :51:14.winning over the public. I had some things I want to say. More important

:51:15. > :51:17.than the party? I wanted to have that debate with Labour Party

:51:18. > :51:26.members, but we have to turn our face to the public. All of this has

:51:27. > :51:30.not been able to say this to constituents who are struggling, and

:51:31. > :51:37.we have a Tory government for another five years. Unless Labour

:51:38. > :51:42.has a positive, optimistic vision for the future of this country, that

:51:43. > :51:48.is what we have to focus on. Do you think you and your colleagues, some

:51:49. > :51:52.of whom described themselves as moderates, really have something to

:51:53. > :51:57.offer the Labour Party? The mood and the tone of the Labour Party is not

:51:58. > :52:02.in the same place as you. There have been moderate Labour MPs who have

:52:03. > :52:06.criticised endlessly Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell. You have

:52:07. > :52:13.compared his politics to those of the 1980s and harking back to the

:52:14. > :52:17.past. I have turned down many interviews because I do not intend

:52:18. > :52:21.to be a commentator on a critique of what is happening. That is not what

:52:22. > :52:26.I want. I want to see a Labour government and the real place where

:52:27. > :52:30.I believe moderates and myself need to focus on is coming up with

:52:31. > :52:38.inspirational ideas for the future. We cannot just provide a critique.

:52:39. > :52:42.That is what people will ask. Let's talk about energy. You said people

:52:43. > :52:51.did not believe Ed Miliband's pledge to freeze prices. Do you agree? He

:52:52. > :52:56.is still holding those views. Going through a rerun of that will not

:52:57. > :53:01.work. There are big issues for us as a party. We did badly amongst older

:53:02. > :53:06.voters and I think we can have positive things and inspirational

:53:07. > :53:13.things to say. My great passion has always been the early years of life.

:53:14. > :53:17.Kids in my constituency start school on average 15 months behind where

:53:18. > :53:20.they should be in terms of development and I want to put my

:53:21. > :53:24.effort and focus on how we transformed those early years.

:53:25. > :53:27.You've got to get out of bed, put on a pair of shoes

:53:28. > :53:29.to visit your local school or church hall.

:53:30. > :53:33.Alternatively, you will have to put a cross on a piece of paper sent

:53:34. > :53:36.to you through the post and then return it in a pre-paid envelope.

:53:37. > :53:39.And we're asking to do it as often as once a year!

:53:40. > :53:41.No wonder so few of us bother to vote.

:53:42. > :53:43.How much easier it would be if we just voted online?

:53:44. > :53:47.And that's exactly what they do in Estonia.

:53:48. > :53:50.It turns out elections in Estonia mostly look exactly the same

:53:51. > :53:52.as ours, but almost a third of Estonians, including

:53:53. > :53:55.the Prime Minister, vote at home on a computer rather than using such

:53:56. > :53:57.old-fashioned things as pencils, paper and boxes.

:53:58. > :54:02.You write the number of the candidate you are voting

:54:03. > :54:05.for here, and pop it in the ballot box, and that's it.

:54:06. > :54:09.But with e-voting, you're allowed to vote as many times as you like,

:54:10. > :54:11.so you can change your mind, and the only one that matters

:54:12. > :54:16.The theory is that reduces the incentive to coerce someone

:54:17. > :54:25.the results to prevent tampering, but cyber security experts have

:54:26. > :54:30.claimed the system is not secure, and is vulnerable to cyber attack.

:54:31. > :54:34.Some of the Estonian opposition are suspicious too,

:54:35. > :54:37.but the authorities say there has never been a problem

:54:38. > :54:41.during the decade that the system has been in place.

:54:42. > :54:43.And there are some big differences between Estonia and the UK.

:54:44. > :54:52.And crucially, Estonians trust the state with their private data,

:54:53. > :54:59.even something as private as their vote.

:55:00. > :55:02.I'm joined by Areeq Chowdhury who runs a youth-led pressure group

:55:03. > :55:04.called WebRoots Democracy which is campaigning

:55:05. > :55:07.for the introduction of an online voting option for UK elections,

:55:08. > :55:09.and by Jason Kitcat from Open Rights Group who has

:55:10. > :55:15.serious concerns about the use of electronic voting.

:55:16. > :55:25.What are you asking for? Online voting in UK elections. One of the

:55:26. > :55:34.main issues we are trying to combat is incredibly poor voter turnout. We

:55:35. > :55:40.have launched a report that shows that 95% of the UK's politicians are

:55:41. > :55:45.elected on turnouts of less than 50%, so we are looking at solutions

:55:46. > :55:52.to combat that. Is it realistic to do anything radical before the next

:55:53. > :55:58.election? Today is the one-year anniversary of the speaker's

:55:59. > :56:03.commission which looks at this. You look at very similar projects which

:56:04. > :56:10.could be done in 3-4 years, but it could take up to five years. It is

:56:11. > :56:15.the political will behind it. The government could get it done for

:56:16. > :56:20.2020. It does not look like there is enough political will. What are your

:56:21. > :56:23.fears about it? It is well intentioned to increase

:56:24. > :56:29.participation, but we have had trials in the UK and turnout dropped

:56:30. > :56:33.in those trials. Experience in Norway, Finland, Ireland,

:56:34. > :56:40.Netherlands, France and Italy all tried it and participation dropped.

:56:41. > :56:45.It was quite a long time ago. It was, and in Estonia participation

:56:46. > :56:49.has not changed. If we are saying the problem is participation, this

:56:50. > :56:55.is not the solution. We studied the Estonian system and we were able to

:56:56. > :57:00.change the results. Is it because you do not agree with Jason that the

:57:01. > :57:04.participation went down? We had a look at the pilots and some of the

:57:05. > :57:10.numbers went up and some went down. In Estonia it has gone up by five

:57:11. > :57:14.points. The problem with these elections were turnout has not

:57:15. > :57:21.increased is you can be sceptical about it and point at the Estonian

:57:22. > :57:27.election. At the Labour leadership election they used online voting and

:57:28. > :57:32.they had 81%. Are you a fan? When the state falls behind how people

:57:33. > :57:36.live their lives it is a problem. I like doing my cross with the pencil

:57:37. > :57:43.and the box, but the state has to keep up. The evidence is not there?

:57:44. > :57:49.On security this is a completely different problem to banking. You

:57:50. > :57:54.cannot show people how you voted. We have shown in the Estonian system

:57:55. > :57:59.that you can steal the election and no one would know about it. We were

:58:00. > :58:04.able to bypass ID cards. A smart card is given to every citizen and

:58:05. > :58:09.we could bypass that. Security will be more important in the end and

:58:10. > :58:17.convenience. I have read the report that they have done and the

:58:18. > :58:19.Estonians have described it as incompetent and there would be a

:58:20. > :58:26.very small chance of committing these things. The people campaigning

:58:27. > :58:32.against online voting in the US and Canada and in Europe are online

:58:33. > :58:35.scientists. They say, we love technology, but in politically

:58:36. > :58:39.binding election the risks are not worth the benefits. Security

:58:40. > :58:45.concerns are quite valid. It is really important. We cannot get

:58:46. > :58:49.electronic voting in the House of commons. People need to wake up and

:58:50. > :58:53.find a way past it and I am sure it is possible. It would help and

:58:54. > :58:59.increased turnout and it is the way people live their lives. We have to

:59:00. > :59:00.move with the times. We will talk more about this no doubt in the

:59:01. > :59:04.We will talk more about this no doubt in the coming years.

:59:05. > :59:08.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:59:09. > :59:10.The question was about former shadow chancellor Ed Balls.

:59:11. > :59:13.He's said there's one job he doesn't want after losing his seat

:59:14. > :59:34.Liz, what is it? I do not know. Go for one. What does he not want to

:59:35. > :59:36.be? Politician? Think counterintuitively, think

:59:37. > :59:41.politician. Thank you for being our guest of the day. I will be back

:59:42. > :59:44.tomorrow with Andrew for Prime Minister's questions.

:59:45. > :59:50.Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.