:00:37. > :00:38.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.David Cameron is said to be closing in on a deal
:00:42. > :00:48.But will it wash with his MPs and the country at large?
:00:49. > :00:51.The Prime Minister is in Brussels to meet Commission President
:00:52. > :00:54.Jean-Claude Juncker amid reports that the UK may get an emergency
:00:55. > :01:00.brake on in-work benefits for EU workers.
:01:01. > :01:04.But one Eurosceptic Conservative MP says the idea is a sick joke.
:01:05. > :01:09.Is the Government too cosy to multinationals like Google?
:01:10. > :01:11.That's the accusation after a row about Google's ?130
:01:12. > :01:17.We speak to one lobbyist who welcomes greater transparency
:01:18. > :01:23.Donald Trump isn't exactly a shrinking violet but he stayed
:01:24. > :01:33.away from a Fox News debate last night.
:01:34. > :01:37.The last before Iowa votes in its Monday caucuses.
:01:38. > :01:40.But even when he's not in the room, is he still making the running?
:01:41. > :01:43.Journalist Matt Frei joins us to look at the Republican race.
:01:44. > :01:45.And what does it take to be Foreign Secretary?
:01:46. > :01:48.We have the latest in our series of films on the Great Offices of State.
:01:49. > :01:52.I think in my first year in office, I was able to recall one day,
:01:53. > :02:07.Christmas Eve, as it happens, when nothing happened.
:02:08. > :02:10.Santa happens on Christmas Eve, of course!
:02:11. > :02:13.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:02:14. > :02:15.of the programme today two giants of political commentary.
:02:16. > :02:18.Or, at least, that's what we were aiming for but,
:02:19. > :02:20.in the end, we had to settle for these two -
:02:21. > :02:23.Julia Hartley-Brewer and Kevin Maguire.
:02:24. > :02:26.Now, as we speak, David Cameron is arriving in Brussels
:02:27. > :02:28.for a meeting with EU Commission President Jean-Claude
:02:29. > :02:32.It comes amid reports that Britain is apparently closing in on a deal
:02:33. > :02:35.that would allow it to deny in-work benefits to people from other parts
:02:36. > :02:39.But the idea of a so-called emergency brake has met
:02:40. > :02:43.with scepticism from - yep, you guessed it -
:02:44. > :02:59.So what is on Mr Cameron's shopping list? He said he wants four things
:03:00. > :03:02.for his shopping basket. First economic governance, the PM wants
:03:03. > :03:07.safeguards to ensure countries like the UK but do not use the euro are
:03:08. > :03:12.not disadvantaged, including not having to contribute to any future
:03:13. > :03:18.Eurozone bailouts. Secondly, competitiveness. He wants to end...
:03:19. > :03:24.Extend the single market, cut red tape and ease the burden of
:03:25. > :03:27.excessive regulation. Third, sovereignty, greater powers for
:03:28. > :03:31.national parliaments to block EU legislation and an opt out from the
:03:32. > :03:38.founding ambition in the Treaty of Rome to forge ever closer union.
:03:39. > :03:42.Fourth is the closest... Most specifically controversial, and
:03:43. > :03:47.esters want to restrict in work and some out of work and fits that can
:03:48. > :03:54.be claimed by EU migrants when they come here. Other EU countries say it
:03:55. > :03:58.is discriminatory. But reports today say that Britain could be offered
:03:59. > :04:02.emergency brake room, which could include curbing immigration by
:04:03. > :04:07.denying benefits for four years. Former Tory Cabinet Minister John
:04:08. > :04:11.Redwood has already called the suggestion, quote, a sick joke and
:04:12. > :04:15.an insult to the UK. It is a reminder to the Prime Minister that
:04:16. > :04:19.even if he can get a deal agreed in time for the EU Council meeting in
:04:20. > :04:23.the middle of February, he still needs enough to satisfy Tory
:04:24. > :04:28.Eurosceptics who will be waiting for him at the checkout. Let's get more
:04:29. > :04:32.on this story with our Europe correspondence Gavin Lee.
:04:33. > :04:36.on this story with our Europe when this idea of an emergency brake
:04:37. > :04:42.was first used, the idea was an emergency brake to stop migration
:04:43. > :04:49.into Britain, now it is being talked of as an emergency brake on welfare
:04:50. > :04:57.benefits, is that right? Yeah. It is a counter proposal. David Cameron
:04:58. > :05:02.has just come to know to face -- has just come to his Brussels lunch with
:05:03. > :05:07.Jean-Claude Junker. This fourth area that David Cameron is demanding
:05:08. > :05:11.change in Europe, the idea of curbing migrant benefits for up to
:05:12. > :05:15.four years, in work benefits, this is what it is in regard to. There
:05:16. > :05:19.has been deadlocked for weeks, neither side saying they would give
:05:20. > :05:24.ground, other member states saying it is a central pillar of the EU,
:05:25. > :05:28.freedom to live and work in any member state. The collision is
:05:29. > :05:33.putting this forward, we understand from a senior source. -- the
:05:34. > :05:36.commission is. It would mean that other member states get to look at
:05:37. > :05:42.the British position, Britain can apply for this four-year cap, they
:05:43. > :05:45.have to show that the welfare state simply cannot cope, and by a
:05:46. > :05:51.majority vote, other member states can agree. But suddenly not only the
:05:52. > :05:55.British upper special opt out, other member states can share the same
:05:56. > :06:00.emergency brake if they needed. It will not require a treaty change,
:06:01. > :06:04.that is another thing about how long it would take. It will be a lot more
:06:05. > :06:09.legislation, and the source who explains how it would work to the
:06:10. > :06:13.BBC says it is probably talking about more than a treaty would take
:06:14. > :06:18.but it is a better way of doing it. That appears to be on paper. David
:06:19. > :06:23.Cameron has arrived to start the very first of many talks with EU
:06:24. > :06:26.commission and Parliament leaders. Just to clarify, before any British
:06:27. > :06:32.governments can apply this emergency brake on welfare payments, they
:06:33. > :06:40.would need a majority of European union members, their permission,
:06:41. > :06:44.before this can be applied, not to the number of migrants coming in but
:06:45. > :06:50.to the kind of welfare they get once they are in? Yeah. As it stands at
:06:51. > :06:54.the moment it is not in the hands of Westminster, it is in the hands of
:06:55. > :06:59.Westminster to apply, which could happen before the referendum. David
:07:00. > :07:03.Cameron might have something in place in the boat was to stay in
:07:04. > :07:09.Europe. It has to be a majority approval by other member states. At
:07:10. > :07:14.the moment, it is a one-time only. If activated, it expires after four
:07:15. > :07:17.years. There is room for negotiation. The commission are
:07:18. > :07:21.proposing this as a counter proposal, we are told, the other
:07:22. > :07:25.member states are not informed formally about this. The Polish
:07:26. > :07:31.Foreign Minister has said in the last half hour that Poland thinks it
:07:32. > :07:36.is not acceptable. On BBC radio this morning David Cameron said that what
:07:37. > :07:39.seemed impossible now seems to be possible, but other member states
:07:40. > :07:44.say that some would find it hard to compromise.
:07:45. > :07:46.Thank you very much, let's see what happens over lunch, see of
:07:47. > :07:52.Jean-Claude Junker has his usual brandy. Orders he have that the
:07:53. > :07:53.breakfast?! -- or does he have that for breakfast?!
:07:54. > :07:55.Joining me now is the Eurosceptic Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan,
:07:56. > :07:58.and John Springford from the Centre for European Reform.
:07:59. > :08:05.John, isn't the idea that a British government would need the position
:08:06. > :08:13.of a majority of EU members to do anything on welfare payments for
:08:14. > :08:17.migrants so ludicrous that it has to B -- has to be an aunt Sally, that
:08:18. > :08:22.the government can say it has much more than that? The point of having
:08:23. > :08:26.a single market labour is that workers can move around the single
:08:27. > :08:31.market and not be discriminated against by their host state it makes
:08:32. > :08:36.sense if you think about it that way that the European Union would decide
:08:37. > :08:41.whether a welfare system was being overwhelmed or not. If we felt the
:08:42. > :08:44.welfare system was being overwhelmed, what would stop us
:08:45. > :08:50.under current European rules from going to ask a majority to change
:08:51. > :08:55.the rules? There is no clear mechanism and AE you rules for them
:08:56. > :09:00.to be able to stop migrants from coming -- under EU rules. But if we
:09:01. > :09:04.went to the rest of the EU and got a majority vote allowing this to
:09:05. > :09:10.change some of the welfare rules for migrant, I don't understand why we
:09:11. > :09:14.couldn't do that at the moment? There are rules in the Treaty, which
:09:15. > :09:20.underlies all the legislation which the EU creates, which makes that
:09:21. > :09:26.type of unilateral action... It would not be unilateral if we got a
:09:27. > :09:32.majority. The European Court of Justice defends the treaties. So
:09:33. > :09:38.even if it was a majority agreement, it would breach the treaties? So
:09:39. > :09:43.what is being proposed? We were talking about an emergency brake on
:09:44. > :09:48.migration, the Eurocrats said no. Then a complete ban on benefits,
:09:49. > :09:52.Eurocrats said no. Then we said, what about an emergency brake on
:09:53. > :09:58.benefits? Even the PM last year said it was unacceptable. If this is how
:09:59. > :10:01.we are being treated now, if the Eurocrats are those unable to make a
:10:02. > :10:05.significant concession won their second largest economy is about to
:10:06. > :10:12.hold a referendum on leaving, imagine how they would treat as the
:10:13. > :10:18.day after we had voted to stay? -- treat us. I think that cuts in
:10:19. > :10:22.another direction. If we vote to leave, and we have just try to
:10:23. > :10:27.renegotiate our position, and Daniel is right, we have not necessarily
:10:28. > :10:31.transformed our agreement with the EU, they are unlikely to give as
:10:32. > :10:35.major concessions in the negotiations over Brexit and market
:10:36. > :10:43.access. Over Brexit, we would make about world rules? Not necessarily,
:10:44. > :10:50.Norway or Switzerland had to abide by free movement rules to have
:10:51. > :10:54.market access in other areas. I am sure we would have sensible
:10:55. > :10:59.bilateral and multinational deals. Nobody is talking about withdrawing
:11:00. > :11:05.co-operation or involvement in the European continent. Post Brexit, the
:11:06. > :11:10.UK would remain interested and involved in every continent,
:11:11. > :11:14.including Europe. But I suspect the PM regrets ever going down this road
:11:15. > :11:19.of renegotiation. I think he would have been better holding a snap
:11:20. > :11:23.in-out referendum, because he is raising and dashing expectations. I
:11:24. > :11:27.think a lot of people would say, my goodness, there is the leader of the
:11:28. > :11:31.fifth-largest economy of the world touring foreign capitals, egging for
:11:32. > :11:36.the right to tweak welfare changes and still being denied. -- begging
:11:37. > :11:39.for the right. That is not the leader of an independent country. If
:11:40. > :11:43.that is how we are being treated now, imagine if we had run up the
:11:44. > :11:48.right flight, imagine what would come down the line? We know the
:11:49. > :11:52.Eurocrats are proposing a social union, harmonisation of welfare and
:11:53. > :11:56.social entitlements, we know we would be dragged into more bailouts,
:11:57. > :12:01.there is a greater risk in voting to stay than in taking back control. If
:12:02. > :12:07.you look at what is happening in Europe, the huge challenges Europe
:12:08. > :12:11.faces, Schengen, that is now struggling to survive, border
:12:12. > :12:17.controls even on the bridge between Copenhagen and Malmo, you can't get
:12:18. > :12:20.more symbolic than that. Nothing the Prime Minister is proposing would
:12:21. > :12:25.make a blind bit of difference to any of that Allbritton 's
:12:26. > :12:34.relationship with it? There is some sense to just say happen in-out
:12:35. > :12:40.referendum? I agree. It seems to me to make the referendum about whether
:12:41. > :12:43.being in the EU is good for Britain's labour market, Britain 's
:12:44. > :12:50.goods and services market, or whether leaving is better. Who said
:12:51. > :12:54.that an emergency brake was, quote, some arcane mechanism which would
:12:55. > :13:02.probably be triggered by the European Commission and not by us?
:13:03. > :13:05.David Cameron! Correct! At the grand old Duke of Downing Street has
:13:06. > :13:09.marched himself to the top of the hill, Martians held down, he is not
:13:10. > :13:14.even halfway up. He has made a complete and utter hash of this. He
:13:15. > :13:18.would have laughed this out of court not so long ago. That he is
:13:19. > :13:25.desperate now, whatever he gets in the next few weeks, he will hail it
:13:26. > :13:29.as the greatest deal ever. And they know that in Brussels, that is the
:13:30. > :13:33.point. If you Angela Merkel or Jean-Claude Junker, why would you
:13:34. > :13:38.make concessions now? As Dell bowed to leave, that is the real
:13:39. > :13:43.bargaining. I am a Eurosceptic and would vote to go out purely on a
:13:44. > :13:46.democratic basis, but it's David Cameron genuinely wanted reform, he
:13:47. > :13:52.should have said he would campaign for out, and only if I get the
:13:53. > :14:00.reforms... It is clear from the word go, there was never any scenario in
:14:01. > :14:04.which he would campaign to go out. ANDREW: this referendum, like the
:14:05. > :14:07.referendum in 1975 when Harold Wilson came back with potentially
:14:08. > :14:14.even less than David Cameron will, potentially, I said, I was involved
:14:15. > :14:17.in that referendum and it was not fought on what Harold Wilson had
:14:18. > :14:24.brought back, this will not be fought on what David Cameron brings
:14:25. > :14:28.back. On this one will not get a 2-1 majority, either side. It will be
:14:29. > :14:33.closer. It will come down to whether you feel more prosperous and secure
:14:34. > :14:37.within, or whether you want to be without. If that is the case, isn't
:14:38. > :14:43.the danger for people who want to stay in, to remain part of the EU,
:14:44. > :14:49.that it will be potentially a horrific backdrop to this
:14:50. > :14:53.referendum, escalating out of control, a migration crisis, with
:14:54. > :14:58.governments doing their own thing, Hungary putting up fences, the
:14:59. > :15:03.bridge closing, Hollande and Merkel not able to agree policy, the quota
:15:04. > :15:13.refugee policy in chaos, meant to cover 160,000, so far 415 have been
:15:14. > :15:17.covered. That is the danger? The refugee and migrant crisis within
:15:18. > :15:22.Schengen, which Britain is not a part, is a accident crisis. The
:15:23. > :15:27.question that I hope that people put to the front of their minds when
:15:28. > :15:31.voting is, would us leaving make any impact on that? I would argue that
:15:32. > :15:37.it would not. This is a Schengen issue. The difference between 75 and
:15:38. > :15:40.now, 75, people were voting about what they wanted going forward and
:15:41. > :15:44.signing up to a free-trade agreement. This time around, it is
:15:45. > :15:49.hopefully whether we agree with the handed over I have a democratically
:15:50. > :15:54.elected representatives, powers handed over to a foreign body
:15:55. > :15:57.without our permission or authorisation. I think it is utterly
:15:58. > :16:00.absurd that our Prime Minister is going around with a begging bowl
:16:01. > :16:07.asking if we can control our own borders.
:16:08. > :16:12.Never mind the immigration issue, there's problems with the euro, we
:16:13. > :16:20.could be dragged into that. We need to grab the steering wheel back
:16:21. > :16:27.before we hit the car crash. They gave us guarantees in written form
:16:28. > :16:31.in the clearest language lawyers could advise that we would not be
:16:32. > :16:36.required to bail out the row. We were dragged in in June. That's why
:16:37. > :16:41.there's a greater risk involved staying. There's a whole new world
:16:42. > :16:45.out there, every continent is growing apart from Antarctica.
:16:46. > :16:52.Viewers will be relishing the fact they have months of this left! I can
:16:53. > :16:56.hear the sets clicking. Before we go, what's your best bet on when the
:16:57. > :17:01.referendum will be? June, the opinion polls are moving towards
:17:02. > :17:05.exit, and every day that passes, it's not just a worsening migration
:17:06. > :17:08.crisis, there is another risk of spreading of the Eurozone crisis to
:17:09. > :17:13.France and it would make Greece look like a sideshow. I think it will be
:17:14. > :17:17.June as well. If we can get the deal in time. And it would be a lovely
:17:18. > :17:23.time of year to celebrate Independence Day in the future! What
:17:24. > :17:32.data put in my diary. It's the summer season. Every season is
:17:33. > :17:33.summer season for you. Ask .com Wimbledon, Test matches, the
:17:34. > :17:34.referendum. Parliament is falling apart -
:17:35. > :17:39.I'm sure you knew this already- but it is, in fact, in need
:17:40. > :17:42.of extensive refurbishment, so MPs are looking around
:17:43. > :17:44.for somewhere to go whilst the work Richmond House, the current home
:17:45. > :17:49.of the Department of Health, has been identified
:17:50. > :17:53.as a possible location. It sits right in the centre of
:17:54. > :17:58.Whitehall opposite Downing Street. However, according to press
:17:59. > :18:05.reports there's a catch. And existential capture some of the
:18:06. > :18:08.MPs. So our question today is,
:18:09. > :18:11.what won't MPs be allowed At the end of the show Julia
:18:12. > :18:22.and Kevin will give us the correct I think they might know what it is,
:18:23. > :18:31.they have a vested interest. David Cameron and George Osborne
:18:32. > :18:33.have been accused of being too close to Google amid growing anger
:18:34. > :18:37.at the company's Former Business Secretary Vince
:18:38. > :18:42.Cable said earlier this week that Google had a "great deal
:18:43. > :18:44.of influence" in No 10 Even Rupert Murdoch got
:18:45. > :18:48.in on the act, accusing the - and I quote - "posh boys
:18:49. > :18:50.in Downing Street" of being Nobody in Downing Street, of course,
:18:51. > :18:54.has ever been in awe of posh Steve Hilton, who used to be
:18:55. > :18:58.David Cameron's strategy chief, says there needs to be much greater
:18:59. > :19:10.scrutiny Do I appreciate the anger, yes, I
:19:11. > :19:20.very much do. I think there is a growing sense that companies who are
:19:21. > :19:26.so big and dominant, not just in the marketplace, but in the way they
:19:27. > :19:31.relate to government and so on, that they are above the law. I think in
:19:32. > :19:35.this particular case, I think they have made clear that they were
:19:36. > :19:38.abiding by the law then when the arrangement caused anger, and now
:19:39. > :19:43.they have the new arrangement. The truth is that those of us who really
:19:44. > :19:48.believe in the power of business and capitalism to do good things for
:19:49. > :19:52.society, and I am definitely one of those people, we have to make clear
:19:53. > :19:53.to businesses that they have a responsibility to behave in a way
:19:54. > :19:55.that earns public trust. Joining me now is Iain Anderson -
:19:56. > :19:58.chairman of Cicero Group, He also chairs the Association of
:19:59. > :20:10.Professional Political Consultants, Nothing new in the idea that big
:20:11. > :20:16.companies get to lobby governments, and governments can often be too
:20:17. > :20:21.close to big companies, so too for oppositions. But what will we do
:20:22. > :20:25.about it? The government 's lobbying register is not the answer to where
:20:26. > :20:30.we are now. It's a completely failed concept. In our view, it covers
:20:31. > :20:38.about 1% of the actual lobbying that is taking place. Google don't like,
:20:39. > :20:42.like me, don't actually have to be on the register, so the government
:20:43. > :20:47.plans hatched up under the coalition don't solve any of this. What we
:20:48. > :20:54.want to see is full disclosure of ministerial diaries. That gets rid
:20:55. > :20:58.of any perceived problem. You could see big companies, small companies,
:20:59. > :21:01.charities, trade unions, you can see the meetings. Surely we know
:21:02. > :21:04.something of the diaries, that's why we know there have been 21 meetings
:21:05. > :21:12.with Google, we just don't know what happened at them. We are calling for
:21:13. > :21:16.a better and more robust disclosure. Looking department by department,
:21:17. > :21:19.they are all at sixes and sevens as to who makes timely declarations
:21:20. > :21:23.over who's having these meetings. It's never really the meeting with
:21:24. > :21:27.the Minister that decides things, it's endless meetings, lunches,
:21:28. > :21:33.breakfasts and parties between special advisers and other people
:21:34. > :21:38.and big companies. That's where what you would call the Sherpa work is
:21:39. > :21:44.done. Again, the government's lobbying register completely fails
:21:45. > :21:46.because it doesn't require me or Google or any other company to
:21:47. > :21:50.declare when it meets a special adviser. You only have to declare
:21:51. > :21:57.when UA meet a minister or permanent secretary. I don think I met one
:21:58. > :22:00.permanent secretary last year. I would like to challenge what Steve
:22:01. > :22:07.Hilton said at the end of that package. No professional lobbyist I
:22:08. > :22:12.know lobby is about a company's tax bill. That's the job of the people
:22:13. > :22:17.not in this chair today, the accountants and tax advisers. I want
:22:18. > :22:21.to clear up the idea that lobbyists are trying to change the tax rules
:22:22. > :22:29.and bills themselves. It's not true. Don't you do that when you take HMRC
:22:30. > :22:34.to lunch? I don't do that. You get my point. I don't think HMRC are
:22:35. > :22:39.happy to be launched in that way. The current regime we have doesn't
:22:40. > :22:44.work. Frankly, we need not just new lobbying rules, but we need new
:22:45. > :22:47.corporate tax and personal tax rules because the system is far too copper
:22:48. > :22:53.gated. Lobbying is a mess in this country. It is, but they lobbied
:22:54. > :23:02.brilliantly on the register, so special advisers... I have read
:23:03. > :23:09.menus in bars that are more detailed than this lobbying register. And
:23:10. > :23:12.he's read a lot. You are never going to end it all together. I think
:23:13. > :23:15.there's nothing wrong with ministers and special advisers meeting people,
:23:16. > :23:20.but you want transparency and you want to know who they have met. It
:23:21. > :23:23.will not solve everything, of course, we have to keep moving to
:23:24. > :23:27.try to pin them down, but we could go further than we have already. I
:23:28. > :23:33.think the issue, there is nothing intrinsically wrong, immoral or
:23:34. > :23:38.dodgy about people lobbying, trade unionists and headteachers can
:23:39. > :23:42.lobby. They have more legislation around them though. The key thing
:23:43. > :23:47.is, the more you try to regulate this in this way, what will happen
:23:48. > :23:51.is exactly what has happened since freedom of information laws, it's
:23:52. > :23:54.like post-it notes. Ernest is don't have formal meetings in their office
:23:55. > :23:57.with a lobbyist, they will be directed to chat to them at a
:23:58. > :24:02.cocktail party and there will be no record. The key thing is taking
:24:03. > :24:05.money out of politics. If people lobbying can't offer funds towards
:24:06. > :24:10.political parties and campaigns because it's not allowed, you have a
:24:11. > :24:15.better chance of clearing things up. Politicians and ministers of all
:24:16. > :24:22.parties like to think they are with the zeitgeist. Cosying up to Google,
:24:23. > :24:27.a Brave New World, Apple, Amazon, and they don't spend much time with
:24:28. > :24:34.the widget company in West Birmingham. My hardest tasks are
:24:35. > :24:39.working for new entrants. We work for lots of new entrants, people try
:24:40. > :24:44.to get in to disrupt the market. At one point Google was a market
:24:45. > :24:52.disrupter, at one point Facebook was a market disrupter. But not now. In
:24:53. > :24:56.a way, this debate is a bit of a mirage from the bit that should be
:24:57. > :25:01.taking place, which is, are the corporate tax rules in this country
:25:02. > :25:04.fit for purpose? But they are less likely to go after these companies
:25:05. > :25:08.when they are for ever having a glass of perceptual, and a nibble
:25:09. > :25:13.around their offices. They are in and out of each other's restaurants
:25:14. > :25:18.will stop that's why you want transparency. You also want to push
:25:19. > :25:24.them away. We are all aware of the news of the settlement with Google.
:25:25. > :25:27.We know there have been 20 odd meetings between Google and
:25:28. > :25:31.ministers. People are making the connection, but it's still not shown
:25:32. > :25:38.that these meetings had anything to do with Google's tax returns. You
:25:39. > :25:40.are quite right on that. We have not seen the figures, and I understand
:25:41. > :25:44.personal privity and tax affairs even though I don't believe it
:25:45. > :25:48.should apply to big corporations will stop I would like to see the
:25:49. > :25:54.ballpark figures. But it creates an app sphere where you become very
:25:55. > :26:00.friendly. Ministers and opposition parties stop social mixing. HMRC
:26:01. > :26:04.inspectors like to go after big avoiders, as they see it. It's like
:26:05. > :26:09.red meat to them. They want to win the battle is. But they will not
:26:10. > :26:12.feel they have ministers on their side if they are always being the
:26:13. > :26:18.Pali Pali with companies like Google. One of the Prime Minister's
:26:19. > :26:29.formal advertisers was working for Google. -- advisers. It also happens
:26:30. > :26:35.at the Guardian as well! Wouldn't it lay a lot of suspicions? We don't
:26:36. > :26:41.need to see the massive detail of a big corporation's tax return, but if
:26:42. > :26:45.multinationals operating and making money in this country would be
:26:46. > :26:49.forced to publish the revenues they generated in this country, the
:26:50. > :26:57.profit generated in this country, as identified and agreed with HMRC, and
:26:58. > :27:02.then the tax they paid. Three lines would give us a fair idea if things
:27:03. > :27:06.were being fair or not. And that, and this is the ridiculous thing
:27:07. > :27:10.about George Osborne heralding this as a great deal, he announced it as
:27:11. > :27:16.a great deal, just as what we are talking about was agreed at
:27:17. > :27:20.international level by the OECD. Country by country reporting of tax
:27:21. > :27:24.deals. This Google tax, as we find out this morning, doesn't capture
:27:25. > :27:25.Google, there is something wrong with the tax system and that's the
:27:26. > :27:29.real story. A new national database to allow
:27:30. > :27:31.seriously ill patients to volunteer for innovative treatments looks
:27:32. > :27:34.set to get the go-ahead MPs are debating the Access
:27:35. > :27:38.to Medical Treatments Bill, which is the latest incarnation
:27:39. > :27:42.of legislation originally brought forward by the Conservative
:27:43. > :27:53.peer Lord Saatchi. It only applies to England and
:27:54. > :27:55.Wales, with Scottish health being a devolved subject.
:27:56. > :27:58.Lord Saatchi campaigned on the issue after his wife Josephine Hart died
:27:59. > :28:00.from ovarian cancer and was unable to volunteer to be treated
:28:01. > :28:04.Our reporter Ellie Price has been in the Commons monitoring
:28:05. > :28:13.This hill was first introduced in the last Parliament, first as a
:28:14. > :28:17.private members bill, and then by Lord Saatchi in the upper house. It
:28:18. > :28:22.rumbled on and was eventually blocked by the Liberal Democrats.
:28:23. > :28:25.Today is the Bill's reincarnation in this Parliament. Many of the
:28:26. > :28:29.controversial bits are likely to be watered down with amendments. That
:28:30. > :28:37.will take away some of the objections, politically and in the
:28:38. > :28:43.medical thinking in this. The life science Minister George Freeman
:28:44. > :28:48.joins me, alongside Heidi Alexander. Did you agree with Lord Saatchi's
:28:49. > :28:54.principals in the last Bill? We are today combining three different
:28:55. > :28:59.bills in one. Lord Saatchi's original intention was to try to
:29:00. > :29:02.promote innovative use of medicines by assuring doctors there was a
:29:03. > :29:07.pathway they could be assured would not trigger negligence. It had the
:29:08. > :29:10.opposite effect, it was a good intentioned but it concerned people
:29:11. > :29:16.we were changing the law make widgets, which we were not doing.
:29:17. > :29:20.Nick Thomas Simon's Bill promoting off label medicines, we wanted to
:29:21. > :29:25.see that but we didn't agree with the mechanism. I think we have been
:29:26. > :29:29.delighted to work with the opposition, the Lib Dems and SNP, a
:29:30. > :29:33.wonderful and rare moment of joined up politics, the house at its best,
:29:34. > :29:39.putting patients first, and I think the bill today will promote what
:29:40. > :29:42.people want to see, access for innovative medicines, new medicines
:29:43. > :29:47.and innovative uses for existing off label medicines. It has been watered
:29:48. > :29:52.down. The main thrust being met a database has been created. I
:29:53. > :29:57.wouldn't say watered down. We have taken out the negligence revisions
:29:58. > :30:02.that were concerning doctors and patients groups. That is a price far
:30:03. > :30:06.too high to pay. I was never going to approve those measures if they
:30:07. > :30:10.were not supported by the clinical community. What we are doing here,
:30:11. > :30:16.and what the bill does, is to say front-line doctors in a busy NHS
:30:17. > :30:21.should have information of drugs on trials and new drugs at the click of
:30:22. > :30:22.a mouse, so there patients get the access to the latest drugs
:30:23. > :30:33.available. What is the problem, you all agree
:30:34. > :30:37.on this? George is doing a very good job of spinning this. If the
:30:38. > :30:40.amendments are made, the bill is vastly different from the one
:30:41. > :30:47.originally proposed. The original bill would have change the law on
:30:48. > :30:50.clinical negligence. It is a bill that people in the Department of
:30:51. > :30:55.Health had worked on, we were clear it could not happen because it would
:30:56. > :30:58.have been a risk to patient safety and undermined participation in
:30:59. > :31:03.clinical trials, which is why charities like Cancer Research UK
:31:04. > :31:10.and the Wellcome trust were very, very clearly opposed. George, if you
:31:11. > :31:17.finish, if the amendments are made, this bill will amount to one
:31:18. > :31:20.substantive clause setting up a database which the Secretary of
:31:21. > :31:24.State for Health already has the power to do. Nobody is opposed to
:31:25. > :31:28.sharing information about innovative medical treatments. The Government
:31:29. > :31:33.got themselves into a Hull with this bill. I'm pleased it looks as if we
:31:34. > :31:39.might be making some changes to it which will hopefully share some of
:31:40. > :31:46.that best prep or so people can get treatments, access to treatments
:31:47. > :31:51.which work. A U-turn? We genuinely have cross-party agreement. I know
:31:52. > :31:55.Heidi has a job to do, she has to oppose, but we worked very hard, all
:31:56. > :32:00.of us. I was always clear that we would never support a bill that
:32:01. > :32:07.undermined patient and clinician confidence. This bill now, I
:32:08. > :32:10.believe, will move us forward. I'm afraid I think that George is
:32:11. > :32:14.reinventing history, to a certain extent, because this has been a bill
:32:15. > :32:18.which has moved forward at various stages with the support and
:32:19. > :32:22.involvement of Department of Health officials. I think if we can make
:32:23. > :32:27.the changes today that are being proposed, I don't think there is a
:32:28. > :32:31.problem with setting up a database, but I think the risks that were in
:32:32. > :32:36.the original bill, to patient safety and the risk that it would have
:32:37. > :32:39.undermined participation in clinical trials, that was something I could
:32:40. > :32:43.not live with, and it was right we are posted at second reading and I
:32:44. > :32:48.am hopeful that those amendments could be made. I will give you the
:32:49. > :32:53.final word in ten seconds. It is a great thing but we have a secured,
:32:54. > :32:58.cross-party agreement, and it is a shame, we have our clashes at the
:32:59. > :33:02.dispatch box, but this is the time to celebrate cross-party working for
:33:03. > :33:07.the good of patients. Heidi Alexander in George Freeman, thank
:33:08. > :33:12.you both. This is the bill's second reading, so if it gets the go-ahead
:33:13. > :33:13.today it is likely to pass, just not necessarily in the former Lord
:33:14. > :33:16.Saatchi might have wanted it to. Donald Trump loomed large over
:33:17. > :33:18.the final Republican debate ahead of the Iowa Causes on Monday
:33:19. > :33:25.despite not even being on stage. Mr Trump decided to boycott
:33:26. > :33:30.the Fox News debate after the channel refused
:33:31. > :33:32.to drop its host Megyn Kelly, whom Mr Trump had accused
:33:33. > :33:45.of bias towards him. We have the same problem with Shadow
:33:46. > :33:46.Ministers and Cabinet ministers here!
:33:47. > :33:49.Let's address the elephant not in the room tonight.
:33:50. > :33:51.Donald Trump has chosen not to attend this evening's
:33:52. > :33:54.I'm a maniac, and everyone on this stage is stupid,
:33:55. > :34:02.Now we've got the Donald Trump portion out of
:34:03. > :34:11.I kind of miss Donald Trump, he was a little teddy bear to me.
:34:12. > :34:14.We always had such a loving relationship during these debates,
:34:15. > :34:23.I kind of miss him, I wish he was here.
:34:24. > :34:28.That is the last debate before the people of Iowa go to vote on Monday.
:34:29. > :34:32.Well, Mr Trump held his own rally nearby in honour of war veterans.
:34:33. > :34:35.And I didn't want to be here, I have to be honest.
:34:36. > :34:37.I wanted to be about five minutes away.
:34:38. > :34:39.And I've enjoyed that, I've enjoyed that.
:34:40. > :34:42.All the online polls said I've done very well with this,
:34:43. > :34:46.But you have to stick up for your rights.
:34:47. > :34:49.When you are treated badly, you have to stick up
:34:50. > :34:57.Is it for me, personally, a good thing, a bad thing?
:34:58. > :35:03.But it's for our vets, and you're going to like it,
:35:04. > :35:05.because we raised over $5 million in one day.
:35:06. > :35:12.Joining me now is Matt Frei, formerly of this parish,
:35:13. > :35:16.He's just done a documentary about Donald Trump which aired
:35:17. > :35:31.Welcome to the programme. Is it not remarkable that Donald Trump has
:35:32. > :35:35.gone from the man that had no chance to the man that the Republican
:35:36. > :35:40.establishment is now needs to stop? It is extraordinary. He has taken
:35:41. > :35:45.the Republican rule book and, as you know, Andrew, Republicans like
:35:46. > :35:49.elections to be sort of organised, there is a corporate nurse, we will
:35:50. > :35:53.give John McCain a chance but ultimately George W Bush is our
:35:54. > :35:59.guide, this does not work any more. The first person to rip about rule
:36:00. > :36:03.book was Sarah Palin. When she appeared in 2008 and basically
:36:04. > :36:07.screamed out lots of white men in red tides, and the red tie is the
:36:08. > :36:13.Republican tie, their faces blanched because they thought, oh my God, we
:36:14. > :36:15.need this woman on our side but she will completely destroy our
:36:16. > :36:20.assumptions. That was forgotten for eight years, now she is back with a
:36:21. > :36:24.vengeance in the form of Donald Trump who basically, although he is
:36:25. > :36:28.a billionaire and only ever flies into these events with his private
:36:29. > :36:32.jet and flies out again to spend the night in his penthouse in Trump
:36:33. > :36:38.Towers on fifth Ave, occurs he says that people are afraid to say,
:36:39. > :36:42.because he embodies the American dream and because he is not a
:36:43. > :36:46.politician, he is able to convince people that one day they could be
:36:47. > :36:52.like him, or at least that he will kick sand into the face of the
:36:53. > :36:55.establishment. Here's a consequence like, I would suggest, Bernie
:36:56. > :37:00.Sanders on the Democrat side, probably the most left-wing
:37:01. > :37:06.candidate for the Democratic nomination since Mr McGovern in
:37:07. > :37:11.1972, of an anger on Main Street in America, of a feeling, particularly
:37:12. > :37:15.among working-class whites, what the Americans call middle-class whites,
:37:16. > :37:19.that they have not had a fair deal, that the world is passing them by,
:37:20. > :37:25.the country is changing in ways they don't like? You hear this anger over
:37:26. > :37:30.and over. You could argue, what is with the anger? Your country is
:37:31. > :37:35.growing faster than any developed economy, unemployment has gone down
:37:36. > :37:39.to 5.3%, you could have had a great depression but you only got a
:37:40. > :37:44.slightly rate recession which has now gone. Feel angry, because even
:37:45. > :37:50.though they have a job it is not paying great wages, they are almost
:37:51. > :37:55.underwater with their wages. -- mortgage. Lots of people, especially
:37:56. > :37:59.white, middle-class, lower middle-class, Americans, feel that
:38:00. > :38:03.history has gone on a different track and they are being left
:38:04. > :38:09.behind. Those are the people that Trump, despite his bombastic wealth,
:38:10. > :38:14.is able to plug into. Every time he opens his mouth and say something
:38:15. > :38:17.abrasive, something which crosses a political line that no other
:38:18. > :38:22.candidate in history would dare to cross, his poll ratings go up. The
:38:23. > :38:27.more we and others attack him, they go up further. I would suggest that
:38:28. > :38:32.the problem the Republicans face is that, popular as Mr Trump may be,
:38:33. > :38:37.with those in the caucuses and in the primaries, when you look at his
:38:38. > :38:41.poll ratings in the wider American electorate that he needs come
:38:42. > :38:47.November this year, his poll ratings are negative? They are. Americans
:38:48. > :38:52.are caught with an albatross around their neck called Donald J Trump. It
:38:53. > :38:56.is like a train crash, the train crashes, he becomes the nominee, we
:38:57. > :39:00.cannot stop the wave of anger which comes into its own in the primaries,
:39:01. > :39:04.he will be the nominee and then he will lose against Hillary Clinton.
:39:05. > :39:09.The Democrats have a similar an albatross called Hillary Clinton.
:39:10. > :39:14.She is perhaps a small albatross, but she is still an albatross. Some
:39:15. > :39:17.Democrats have said that no Democratic frontrunner has gone into
:39:18. > :39:23.the primary season with such negative ratings in modern times
:39:24. > :39:26.than Hillary Clinton. This is not just an American phenomenon, I would
:39:27. > :39:32.suggest. We have Marine Le Pen leading the polls in France, a hard
:39:33. > :39:38.right government in power in Poland, we have the Swedish Democrats, not
:39:39. > :39:42.the social Democrats, the Sweden Democrats, the third-largest party
:39:43. > :39:45.now in Sweden. And Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the Labour Party in
:39:46. > :39:51.Britain. You could see that all as a revolt against the mainstream? And
:39:52. > :39:56.the rise of Nigel Farage a few years ago. Western economies are changing.
:39:57. > :40:01.There is a crisis in capitalism when wages are very low, yet a company
:40:02. > :40:06.like Google can get away with making vast profits and paying very little
:40:07. > :40:12.tax. I think people have good reason to be angry. They feel the system is
:40:13. > :40:16.not working for them? Because it is not, but certainly with Donald Trump
:40:17. > :40:20.I find it ironically that you have a billionaire who is not known for
:40:21. > :40:24.paying high wages or having good employment conditions in his hotels
:40:25. > :40:27.and the rest of his empire, he is presenting himself as the champion
:40:28. > :40:31.of mainstream... And the presenting himself as the champion
:40:32. > :40:36.of disbelief by American voters is extraordinary. That there
:40:37. > :40:40.of disbelief by American voters is middle-class whites in America. In
:40:41. > :40:42.of disbelief by American voters is this country we would be very
:40:43. > :40:47.of disbelief by American voters is suspicious of a multimillionaire,
:40:48. > :40:51.that he would be in June. In America, they take the view that he
:40:52. > :40:51.that he would be in June. In cannot be bought. We are more
:40:52. > :40:56.sensible! I think that point cannot be bought. We are more
:40:57. > :41:01.been made on behalf of such goldsmiths. There is no evidence at
:41:02. > :41:06.all that rich people can't be bought. -- on behalf of Zac
:41:07. > :41:09.Goldsmith. This suspension disbelief and the willingness to believe that
:41:10. > :41:14.anybody who says the right thing, shouts out, I hate Washington, they
:41:15. > :41:19.will therefore help the little people, for want of a better phrase.
:41:20. > :41:23.There is a well worn path in American
:41:24. > :41:26.There is a well worn path in character is who rises up and then
:41:27. > :41:34.flames, Randolph Charles Lindbergh. They have a lot
:41:35. > :41:37.of money, they captured people's imaginations and then they flame. I
:41:38. > :41:43.am not sure that'll work this around. Ultimately, this boat in the
:41:44. > :41:48.general election, assuming that Trump will get the nomination, comes
:41:49. > :41:54.down to one question, who is more likely to get voters off their
:41:55. > :41:58.couches to vote? The Democrats, the Latinos, the Hispanic population,
:41:59. > :42:01.which is enormous busted not tend to vote, but now they have every reason
:42:02. > :42:07.because they are afraid of getting deported, or poor white men watching
:42:08. > :42:12.daytime television because they don't have a job. But then there is
:42:13. > :42:15.the possibility that the former mayor of New York, Michael
:42:16. > :42:21.Bloomberg, might go in, another billionaire going in as the centre
:42:22. > :42:26.ground. He only works if it is Trump versus Sanders. Mark our card on
:42:27. > :42:31.Monday night, the Iowa caucuses don't really matter much, they are
:42:32. > :42:35.rarely an indicator, but it gives momentum going into New Hampshire.
:42:36. > :42:39.The big danger is Mr Trump conservative New Hampshire, down to
:42:40. > :42:46.the south, with momentum. You call it a danger, it is an opportunity! I
:42:47. > :42:53.mentor the establishment! The establishment seems to be putting
:42:54. > :42:57.its hope on Marco Rubio, but Trump is 18 points ahead of him. Your
:42:58. > :43:03.analysis is spot apart from one thing. Trump rises on the
:43:04. > :43:08.assumption, on the aura that he is invincible, that he can say whatever
:43:09. > :43:12.he likes and prevail. If he loses Iowa, even though the last two
:43:13. > :43:22.candidates who have won Iowa have disappeared almost immediately...
:43:23. > :43:26.Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee... Very interesting. Your documentary
:43:27. > :43:31.has gone out already but it is available on the all four player?
:43:32. > :43:38.Yes, the all four catch up they are, which I should know the exact... You
:43:39. > :43:43.can watch it on the computer! And very good it was. I will be in
:43:44. > :43:46.trouble now. I will be watching at this weekend. Good to see you.
:43:47. > :43:48.David Cameron is busy working hard in Brussels as we speak,
:43:49. > :43:50.but what about his foreign secretary?
:43:51. > :43:58.Well, what with the creation of the European Union
:43:59. > :43:59.and Prime Ministers wanting to hog the limelight,
:44:00. > :44:02.it's a job that's undergone some fundamental changes,
:44:03. > :44:05.as Giles Dilnot found out in the latest in his series on how
:44:06. > :44:26.But could you travel the world being the face of the British
:44:27. > :44:29.Government, and still be able to explain what you're doing
:44:30. > :44:36.So, you want to be Foreign Secretary?
:44:37. > :44:40.I think in my first year in office, I was able to recall one day,
:44:41. > :44:45.Christmas Eve as it happens, when nothing happened in the world.
:44:46. > :44:47.I was warned that there were people in the office,
:44:48. > :44:50.perhaps at fairly senior level, who didn't necessarily think that
:44:51. > :44:54.a woman ought to be Foreign Secretary.
:44:55. > :44:58.Which was a bit of a surprise in this day and age.
:44:59. > :45:00.I sometimes used to think, even when things are really
:45:01. > :45:02.difficult, sitting round the table, thinking, what's going to happen
:45:03. > :45:05.here, what do we do next, thinking, cripes, I'm being paid for this.
:45:06. > :45:12.Nobody much likes the Foreign Office, I've found.
:45:13. > :45:14.They are suspicious, they just want to get
:45:15. > :45:23.Jill Rutter is a former civil servant, and now
:45:24. > :45:28.For her, the role of Foreign Secretary is about sharing
:45:29. > :45:32.the brief with the one person more important than you.
:45:33. > :45:35.Foreign Secretary is still nominally one of the top jobs in government,
:45:36. > :45:37.but it's quite interesting because it's being
:45:38. > :45:41.First, most of the top diplomacy is done by the Prime Minister
:45:42. > :45:44.at head of state level, whether it's at the European Council
:45:45. > :45:47.or the G-7, or just through bilaterals.
:45:48. > :45:57.Secondly, the whole area of Europe is increasingly done by the domestic
:45:58. > :45:59.department, who go and negotiate directly.
:46:00. > :46:01.Successful Foreign Secretarys need to have a very good relationship
:46:02. > :46:03.with the Prime Minister, because people will listen to them
:46:04. > :46:06.if they know they are speaking of behalf of the Prime Minister,
:46:07. > :46:08.rather than running their own agenda.
:46:09. > :46:10.It's not just that everything is done at Prime Ministerial
:46:11. > :46:13.level, it's the fact that, and I hesitate to be too dogmatic
:46:14. > :46:18.about it, but I think it's because Prime Ministers rather
:46:19. > :46:23.like to take control of foreign affairs and defence and sometimes
:46:24. > :46:29.it's rather a relief to get away from the nitty-gritty of domestic
:46:30. > :46:37.politics and sweep yourself into the wider global conflicts.
:46:38. > :46:43.There is a great temptation for Prime Ministers to do that.
:46:44. > :46:46.Yes, I think you have to face it, that the Foreign Office is no longer
:46:47. > :46:52.I mean, frankly, for the last 18 years, we've had only two
:46:53. > :46:54.great offices of state - the Prime Minister and
:46:55. > :46:59.However, not everyone who's been Foreign Secretary has had the PM
:47:00. > :47:06.We have a Prime Minister now, and I have worked with him
:47:07. > :47:09.as Foreign Secretary, who has very strong views about one
:47:10. > :47:12.or two areas of foreign policy, but is quite happy to let
:47:13. > :47:18.the Foreign Secretary lead on a vast range of other things.
:47:19. > :47:21.David Cameron would have very strong views on handling
:47:22. > :47:28.But he would look to me to determine how we are going to handle
:47:29. > :47:34.everything in Latin America, or the approach to Africa and so on.
:47:35. > :47:37.The Foreign Secretary sets the strategy with comments from him.
:47:38. > :47:40.Actually, he was very good at not trying to be his own Foreign
:47:41. > :47:47.On Iran, when Joschka Fischer and Dominique de Villepin,
:47:48. > :47:50.the German and French foreign ministers,
:47:51. > :47:59.with Iran, which have just completed, after 12 years,
:48:00. > :48:03.it was very much our initiative, and Tony went along with it.
:48:04. > :48:06.He effectively left that dossier to me.
:48:07. > :48:08.He would have handled it differently, had
:48:09. > :48:13.If you haven't got a good relationship with the Prime Minister
:48:14. > :48:16.when you are Foreign Secretary, I'm not sure what happens.
:48:17. > :48:18.Well, I do know what happens, because that's what happened under
:48:19. > :48:27.Essentially, what happened is that Robin became marginalised,
:48:28. > :48:31.and the Foreign Office officials were more reporting
:48:32. > :48:36.across the street directly into Downing Street.
:48:37. > :48:39.One old hand, in the job when he was young, has seen
:48:40. > :48:47.First of all it was a very surprisingly appointment,
:48:48. > :48:51.and secondly, I was young, but Callaghan went out of his way
:48:52. > :48:53.to demonstrate to everybody that the Foreign Secretary
:48:54. > :48:59.To some extent, after Peter Carrington, there was a shift.
:49:00. > :49:03.Francis Pym didn't get on at all well with Margaret Thatcher,
:49:04. > :49:08.and she became, post-Falklands, very dominant.
:49:09. > :49:10.And never mind number ten, there's the department
:49:11. > :49:17.Your department is not just the people sitting
:49:18. > :49:23.Most of them are remote, around the world, and they are in 260
:49:24. > :49:28.In the case of the Foreign Secretary,
:49:29. > :49:38.Sometimes leaving Britain and coming back more than once in a day.
:49:39. > :49:41.I visited more countries than any Foreign Secretary in history before,
:49:42. > :49:44.partly because there are more countries now.
:49:45. > :49:48.One of the things our doctor had said to me when I got the job
:49:49. > :49:54.As it happened, a former colleague, a man called Derek Fatchett,
:49:55. > :49:57.who had been a junior minister in the Foreign Office and had died
:49:58. > :50:00.very young, of this thrombosis thing that one can get,
:50:01. > :50:03.and pretty certainly as a result of the scale and nature
:50:04. > :50:11.Our GP said to me, whatever you do, make sure you build in downtime
:50:12. > :50:18.So we took the view that if I was on a programme that started
:50:19. > :50:20.on Monday morning, I would rather lose part of my weekend,
:50:21. > :50:24.go out over the weekend, do the adjustment, and then be
:50:25. > :50:28.there for the meeting on Monday morning.
:50:29. > :50:32.The problem is the endless travel abroad is not always seen by one's
:50:33. > :50:37.The Foreign Office is often sneered at at home for not
:50:38. > :50:42.having its patriotic priorites quite right.
:50:43. > :50:46.I think the problem is when people look at what the Foreign Office
:50:47. > :50:50.was doing, and they took the view, particularly if they didn't know
:50:51. > :50:55.much about it, that the Foreign Office was actually just
:50:56. > :51:01.This, then, is the key accusation levelled at the Foreign Office,
:51:02. > :51:04.that it's more interested in giving into its foreign friends,
:51:05. > :51:08.than standing up for its British compatriots.
:51:09. > :51:10.Of course, what is often not realised, including by some
:51:11. > :51:15.politicians and ministers, is that if you want to avoid
:51:16. > :51:19.going to war and you want to resolve an international crisis
:51:20. > :51:24.through diplomacy, then diplomacy means compromise.
:51:25. > :51:29.There is no negotiation in the real world where one side gets 100%
:51:30. > :51:32.of what they want, and the other side gets zero.
:51:33. > :51:36.If you want total victory, then you don't use diplomats
:51:37. > :51:39.or ambassadors, you use soldiers, sailors and airmen, and you hope
:51:40. > :51:46.So because diplomacy requires compromise, that's why some people
:51:47. > :51:49.who ought to know better, sometimes accuse the Foreign Office
:51:50. > :51:51.of caving in, or surrendering British interests,
:51:52. > :51:58.It's marvellous rhetoric, and it's grossly unfair.
:51:59. > :52:04.In a complex, more integrated world, the Foreign Secretary,
:52:05. > :52:07.however much the PM might like to step into the role from time
:52:08. > :52:10.to time, is still a key figure, even if their colleagues can
:52:11. > :52:12.consider your department a different country that speaks a different
:52:13. > :52:25.What else has been going in Westminster over
:52:26. > :52:32.Here's Giles with the week in 60 seconds.
:52:33. > :52:34.The Government was frantically searching the Internet for tips
:52:35. > :52:38.on how to get out of a crisis after declaring victory over
:52:39. > :52:41.Google's decision to pay ?130 million in back taxes.
:52:42. > :52:43.Jeremy Corbyn attempted to fling a couple of googlies
:52:44. > :52:47.towards David Cameron at PMQs over Google's tax arrangements,
:52:48. > :52:49.but it was the Prime Minister's comments on migrants that
:52:50. > :52:54.They met with a bunch of migrants in Calais, they said
:52:55. > :52:58.It was a better week for Mrs Cameron, though,
:52:59. > :53:01.who was crowned star baker in the Sport Relief Bake Off,
:53:02. > :53:02.wowing the judges with her showstopper cake
:53:03. > :53:09.Lib Dem peer Shirley Williams, one of the gang of four,
:53:10. > :53:14.I have to say that at least I've had the advantage of not actually having
:53:15. > :53:16.to lose my capacities entirely before I departed
:53:17. > :53:21.And meet Ukip councillor Denis Crawford, a public servant
:53:22. > :53:23.so hard working his family reported him missing to the police.
:53:24. > :53:26.Fortunately, the local constabulary found Councillor Crawford safe
:53:27. > :53:40.and well in yet another council meeting.
:53:41. > :53:45.Let's pick up on one of those stories.
:53:46. > :53:47.The Ukip councillor in Norfolk who was working so hard his family
:53:48. > :53:51.I'm delighted to say that Denis Crawford has found time
:53:52. > :53:57.in his busy schedule and joins us now from Norwich.
:53:58. > :54:01.Welcome to the programme, what exactly happened? Why did they think
:54:02. > :54:10.you had gone missing? Thank you, Andrew. I had been busy in County
:54:11. > :54:15.Hall in Norwich, I sit on a lot of the big committees there, the adult
:54:16. > :54:20.social services and children's services, and I tend to leave at
:54:21. > :54:30.7am. I have my first pre-meeting at 9am, going until ten. The councils
:54:31. > :54:34.can take five or six hours to sit through a committee meeting. On that
:54:35. > :54:39.particular Monday, I did that, and then returned to Thetford to go
:54:40. > :54:44.straight to a resident's meeting, meaning I didn't get home until
:54:45. > :54:55.about 9pm. The Tuesday was even worse. On Tuesday I had another 7am
:54:56. > :55:03.leave, a big children's services meeting, came back to Thetford, we
:55:04. > :55:09.had the local District Council meeting. I went to that. And then I
:55:10. > :55:16.went straight on through to the town council meeting. That's where it set
:55:17. > :55:23.off. I understand the police started to look for you. In the end, they
:55:24. > :55:30.found you at a council meeting. Who was more embarrassed? You or the
:55:31. > :55:35.police? I think it was me. We were getting quite a way through the
:55:36. > :55:42.agenda, and there was a tap on the door, a head appeared around it, and
:55:43. > :55:49.the officer said, are we found Denis Crawford. I said, do you want to
:55:50. > :55:53.talk to me? He said yes, and I thought, I don't think I've done
:55:54. > :55:56.anything wrong. He said everything was fine. You wonder whether
:55:57. > :56:00.something has gone wrong with the family. I asked the chairman to step
:56:01. > :56:04.out into the hall, and they explained to me that my neighbour
:56:05. > :56:08.had reported me missing initially, because he hadn't seen me for three
:56:09. > :56:15.days. It's really good you get neighbours like that. Are you under
:56:16. > :56:21.some pressure now to resign and spend more time with your family?
:56:22. > :56:25.No, but I have made a promise to my family that I will inform them more
:56:26. > :56:30.about what I'm doing and where I'm at. We are grateful, we now know
:56:31. > :56:34.exactly how busy your schedule is, so we are grateful you have taken
:56:35. > :56:39.time to be on this show. Would you like to ask the counsellor a
:56:40. > :56:42.question? This happens to Kevin Maguire's family, but they just turn
:56:43. > :56:48.on the television to find out where he is! Thank you for your time and
:56:49. > :56:55.for the work you're doing behalf are people you are doing in your area. A
:56:56. > :57:02.story. It's great, but he's sitting on three councils. We complain about
:57:03. > :57:05.productivity in this country! I commend his public service, somebody
:57:06. > :57:11.from Ukip involved with the police, but nothing nefarious! Do what the
:57:12. > :57:15.Queen does with the Privy Council, shorter meetings, make everybody
:57:16. > :57:19.stand up and it's amazing how much less people have to say. It looks
:57:20. > :57:26.like Europe will just move up the agenda now. It's about time it does,
:57:27. > :57:31.it's a huge issue. It's inevitable there will be a seismic referendum,
:57:32. > :57:37.we think June the 23rd. It will be huge for Britain and it will
:57:38. > :57:38.dominate all politics. Just time before we go to find out the answer
:57:39. > :57:41.to the question. The question was, Richmond House,
:57:42. > :57:44.a potential temporary home for MPs, What won't MPs be
:57:45. > :57:46.allowed to do there? Is it - a) use mobile
:57:47. > :58:00.phones, b) play football, The correct answer is by alcohol,
:58:01. > :58:07.you can't even consume, you can't even bring your own. It's in the
:58:08. > :58:11.stipulations and it could be very healthy for MPs and journalists like
:58:12. > :58:19.me who work in Westminster. It is the Department of Health. And here's
:58:20. > :58:25.just guessing, it won't happen! You cynic! Thank you for being with us
:58:26. > :58:29.today. Have a good weekend. Thank you to all the guests are today. The
:58:30. > :58:37.one o'clock news is starting on BBC One. I will be back on Sunday on BBC
:58:38. > :58:41.One with the Sunday Politics. We will have a line-up of politicians
:58:42. > :58:45.to go through the issues and no doubt we will be talking about
:58:46. > :58:50.Europe again. In particular, we will have a debate on how good or bad is
:58:51. > :58:55.our membership of the EU for business in the United Kingdom.
:58:56. > :59:03.That's from 11am on BBC One this Sunday. Goodbye.
:59:04. > :59:05.As we'll be discussing, cosmologists are studying...
:59:06. > :59:07.The way the French feel about Joan of Arc.
:59:08. > :59:13.You sat on a windowsill and said... How old are you, Grandad?!
:59:14. > :59:15.Shall we call the police? Obviously not.
:59:16. > :59:17.I still carry that little caterpillar.
:59:18. > :59:18.But then nobody wanted to eat the sushi.
:59:19. > :59:21.It was like... The most amazingly evocative....
:59:22. > :59:25.Complete and utter failure. There were ukuleles as well.