:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.David Cameron could face a tough ride in the Commons today.
:00:46. > :00:48.The PM's making the case for his draft EU settlement deal
:00:49. > :00:52.which he hopes will persuade voters to stay in Europe.
:00:53. > :00:58.Not everyone's convinced, though, and plans to restrict welfare
:00:59. > :01:02.payments to migrants have been dubbed "unworkable" by some.
:01:03. > :01:04.Last night, the Home Secretary said the draft EU agreement
:01:05. > :01:12.But some of her Cabinet colleagues aren't too sure.
:01:13. > :01:13.Eurosceptic ministers are still gagged by the Prime
:01:14. > :01:17.Before the PM's statement on Europe, there's another small
:01:18. > :01:24.David Cameron faces Jeremy Corbyn across the despatch box at midday.
:01:25. > :01:26.And in our soapbox today, the inconvenience of a lack
:01:27. > :01:42.just having access to a clean hygienic public toilet is a simple
:01:43. > :01:44.basic human rights. Time for some serious investment. Time to spend
:01:45. > :01:48.more than a penny! All that in the next hour
:01:49. > :01:51.and with us for the duration, a match
:01:52. > :01:52.made in heaven. Deputy Leader of the House
:01:53. > :01:54.of Commons, the Conservative MP, Therese Coffey and Shadow Leader
:01:55. > :01:57.of the House of Commons, Now, do you know your red card
:01:58. > :02:08.from your orange card, Morning, folks, and welcome
:02:09. > :02:11.to the Daily Politics. David Cameron could face a tough
:02:12. > :02:14.ride in the Commons today. The PM's making the case
:02:15. > :02:17.for his draft EU settlement deal which he hopes will persuade
:02:18. > :02:19.voters to stay in Europe. Not everyone's convinced, though,
:02:20. > :02:21.and plans to restrict welfare payments to migrants have been
:02:22. > :02:24.dubbed "unworkable" by some. Last night, the Home Secretary said
:02:25. > :02:26.the draft EU agreement But some of her Cabinet
:02:27. > :02:30.colleagues aren't too sure. Eurosceptic ministers
:02:31. > :02:32.are still gagged by the Prime Before the PM's statement on Europe,
:02:33. > :02:35.there's another small David Cameron faces Jeremy Corbyn
:02:36. > :02:39.across the despatch box at midday. And in our soapbox today,
:02:40. > :02:41.the inconvenience of a lack Just having access to a bog just
:02:42. > :02:45.having access to a clean hygienic public toilet
:02:46. > :02:47.is a simple basic human rights. investment, time to spend
:02:48. > :02:54.more than a penny. All that in the next hour
:02:55. > :02:57.and with us for the duration, a match
:02:58. > :02:58.made in heaven. Deputy Leader of the House
:02:59. > :03:00.of Commons, the Conservative MP, Therese Coffey and Shadow Leader
:03:01. > :03:03.of the House of Commons, Now, do you know your red card
:03:04. > :03:08.from your orange card, or indeed your emergency brake
:03:09. > :03:11.from full frontal throttle Well, David Cameron will find out
:03:12. > :03:14.what MPs think of the deal he's been negotiating to change Britain's
:03:15. > :03:16.membership of the EU, when he discusses it
:03:17. > :03:18.in parliament today. Europe's top officials published
:03:19. > :03:20.a draft offer yesterday, but it's fair to say not
:03:21. > :03:22.everyone's a happy bunny. The PMs deal has been lambasted
:03:23. > :03:25.on the front page of nearly every national newspaper this morning,
:03:26. > :03:27.the Sun and the Mail are particularly critical;
:03:28. > :03:29.and if you believe everything you read, he's heading
:03:30. > :03:32.for a bit of a meltdown So did Britain's most important
:03:33. > :03:35.negotiator get what he wanted. David Cameron wanted a four-year
:03:36. > :03:39.benefit ban on EU migrants... suggests a graduated access
:03:40. > :03:42.to benefits from initial complete exclusion and increases over
:03:43. > :03:44.the four-year period, with child benefits linked
:03:45. > :03:46.to the standard of living in the country where
:03:47. > :03:48.the child lives. The UK can also apply
:03:49. > :03:50.for an emergency brake on welfare, but it's not completely
:03:51. > :03:53.clear how that brake is pulled The PM also wanted protection
:03:54. > :03:56.for non-eurozone economies, prohibiting discrimination
:03:57. > :04:00.between currencies. Cameron wanted to get
:04:01. > :04:01.Britain out of 'ever closer union' with
:04:02. > :04:03.the European Union? that the UK is not committed
:04:04. > :04:08.to further political integration The Prime Minister also
:04:09. > :04:10.wanted the sovereignty of national parliaments
:04:11. > :04:12.to be bolstered? - if 55% of national parliaments
:04:13. > :04:17.club together EU law can be blocked. Some of the Cabinet
:04:18. > :04:18.are reportedly not happy with the deal and are discussing
:04:19. > :04:21.whether to break ranks But the President of
:04:22. > :04:24.the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker,
:04:25. > :04:25.speaking this morning in Strasbourg, Well let's talk now to the Ukip
:04:26. > :04:29.leader, Nigel Farage, Let's talk now to our
:04:30. > :04:32.guests in the studio and to the Conservative MP Liam Fox,
:04:33. > :04:35.who's in Central Lobby. Well, after PMQs, the Prime Minister
:04:36. > :04:38.will give a statement to the House MPs are expected to discuss that
:04:39. > :04:42.until well into the afternoon. Labour's Kate Hoey,
:04:43. > :04:46.and Caroline Lucas from the Green Now, as a public service broadcaster
:04:47. > :05:01.it's our duty to inform, There are two things that can sway
:05:02. > :05:05.the referendum, first can he get us a deal that will give more control
:05:06. > :05:09.of a Borders and the second is the day because of the European Union --
:05:10. > :05:12.the daily cost. That has not been discussed and if he honestly thinks
:05:13. > :05:17.this emergency brake will persuade people on migration he is wrong.
:05:18. > :05:23.Four years from now not only will we pay benefits to EU migrants at the
:05:24. > :05:26.same levels as now on top of that our minimum wage will be going up to
:05:27. > :05:31.a living wage. I think we can predict with confidence in four
:05:32. > :05:35.years, people factors to Britain will be even greater than today and
:05:36. > :05:42.that is why he's got a problem. -- the pulling factors. One problem was
:05:43. > :05:48.persuading people like Theresa May, key members of his cabinet and she
:05:49. > :05:50.zooms to back this deal as the basis for future negotiation. That has
:05:51. > :05:57.been a success for the Prime Minister. In a way. He also has some
:05:58. > :06:01.time until this summit to persuade other Cabinet ministers who might
:06:02. > :06:07.have thought of joining your side. To reason may has always supported
:06:08. > :06:13.the European Union through her career. She has never rebelled on
:06:14. > :06:16.that issue. She has the worst immigration record are some
:06:17. > :06:20.secretary of anyone in UK history. She gave one speech at the Tory
:06:21. > :06:23.confidence when she talked about getting back control of borders,
:06:24. > :06:28.everybody cheered, the Tory papers that she was the new Mrs Thatcher,
:06:29. > :06:33.heroin. If she had been sincere in that speech, then she must campaign
:06:34. > :06:39.for us to leave the EU because it's the only way to get back control of
:06:40. > :06:45.our borders and put into place a points system on immigration which
:06:46. > :06:51.is what the British public want. No Cabinet ministers have joined Leave
:06:52. > :06:54.yet but even if, say, Chris Grayling, or Iain Duncan Smith or
:06:55. > :07:00.Theresa Villiers or all of them join, would that make a massive
:07:01. > :07:04.difference to the Leave campaign? Everyone in Westminster is obsessing
:07:05. > :07:14.about which people will break ranks and support the Leave campaign. I am
:07:15. > :07:17.not sure that politicians have as big a sway over the way people will
:07:18. > :07:22.vote in this referendum as many commentators think. This political
:07:23. > :07:27.class lied to us in 1975 about what the common market was about, they
:07:28. > :07:31.did their best to get us into the euro, thank goodness, we stopped
:07:32. > :07:36.them. I am less worried about which political figures join the Leave
:07:37. > :07:40.campaign. Michael Caine on Radio 4 last week talking about why he
:07:41. > :07:43.thinks Britain would be better outside the European Union, maybe
:07:44. > :07:49.that has a bigger impact on the way people vote than whether one
:07:50. > :07:57.minister comes in on it or not. So in your mind and would not make much
:07:58. > :08:01.difference? Two all three will join Leave, maybe four on a good day with
:08:02. > :08:06.a fair wind. They will be welcome and we need a proper cross-party
:08:07. > :08:11.campaign, not just for ministers, we need Labour people and trade union
:08:12. > :08:14.members. This is all across the board, not about left-wing
:08:15. > :08:18.right-wing parties. It is about a key issue. From my perspective it is
:08:19. > :08:25.the most important vote will have in our lifetimes. Benchmark is not the
:08:26. > :08:30.going problem is not the problem there is not one that United Leave
:08:31. > :08:34.campaign, and those that exist seem to be taking chunks of it each other
:08:35. > :08:42.which is not your message. And angry about it. I have sat in a room with
:08:43. > :08:47.one fellow director of Leave has put an offer on the table and said to
:08:48. > :08:50.John Mills, who is the chairman of Vote Leave, let's merge the
:08:51. > :08:56.organisations Camille can be the chairman, it's doesn't matter about
:08:57. > :09:00.me, let's get together. And time after time the Vote Leave crowd
:09:01. > :09:05.rejected those offers of coming together. I wonder if Vote Leave
:09:06. > :09:09.really want to leave the European Union because they are not talking
:09:10. > :09:17.about a double referendum strategy. It makes no sense. We need to have
:09:18. > :09:22.one unified campaign. Basically two well-paid employees voting Leave
:09:23. > :09:26.will hold up the process. On that, not much time left to bring them
:09:27. > :09:32.together. You are calling for one group and no more, if the referendum
:09:33. > :09:38.is in June you are running out of time. Ie Agree but I don't see any
:09:39. > :09:42.circumstances in which these two well-paid employees will make a deal
:09:43. > :09:45.which is why we launched the initiative for Though, we came on
:09:46. > :09:52.your programme some weeks ago and we'll be on the platform in
:09:53. > :09:56.Manchester for a second meeting. 12 people on the platform from across
:09:57. > :10:04.the political spectrum, David Davis will be joining us on the evening.
:10:05. > :10:09.Thank you, Nigel Farage. In a moment we will talk to our guests in the
:10:10. > :10:13.studio, first, Liam Fox is in the lobby of the House of Commons. Liam
:10:14. > :10:17.Fox, do you believe that the proposed settlement, if that is what
:10:18. > :10:23.it turns out to be, at the summit, will it play much of a part in the
:10:24. > :10:28.referendum campaign? It may play a part with voters who are genuinely
:10:29. > :10:32.undecided. As I have said, for my part, the renegotiation did not make
:10:33. > :10:36.a difference to my view because I had already decided that what we
:10:37. > :10:40.were asking for was too little, so the only way to get back the powers
:10:41. > :10:44.I wanted was to leave the European Union. The question will be for
:10:45. > :10:47.members of Parliament, those who said, some more genuinely than
:10:48. > :10:50.others that they will waiting for the results of the renegotiation,
:10:51. > :10:54.know that they've seen the results, whether that will be enough for
:10:55. > :10:58.them, and in the days ahead Ebor have to make up their minds because
:10:59. > :11:04.it is a binary choice, referendum, you are either in favour of European
:11:05. > :11:07.Union membership or not, you are in favour of Britain determining its
:11:08. > :11:12.own borders or you want them determined somewhere else. People
:11:13. > :11:19.will have to get up that fence. -- of that fence. Are you concerned, as
:11:20. > :11:23.Tory polling seems to suggest, as the Prime Minister comes off the
:11:24. > :11:29.fence and campaigns for Britain to stay in the EU, that that will swing
:11:30. > :11:33.many Tory voters his way, not yours? We will have to wait and see what
:11:34. > :11:37.happens when the documents are put before the voters. Rather than just
:11:38. > :11:42.the Prime Minister, who is a single voice in this in terms of the
:11:43. > :11:45.Cabinet, other Cabinet ministers may campaign for the Leave side and will
:11:46. > :11:50.put with authority a different message. I would not put too much
:11:51. > :11:55.emphasis on polling at the moment, if you look at polling on the
:11:56. > :11:59.referendum it is all over the place. Given that the Prime Minister has
:12:00. > :12:04.already begun to campaign to keep Britain in the EU, we saw that with
:12:05. > :12:07.his speech in the West Country yesterday, do you think that
:12:08. > :12:18.Eurosceptic Conservative Cabinet ministers should now come out and
:12:19. > :12:21.give the other side of the case? It's a question of fairness and how
:12:22. > :12:24.fairly we deal with both sides, how easy it may be after the referendum
:12:25. > :12:26.to come together. If the deal is that nobody should campaign for or
:12:27. > :12:28.against the deal until it is finalised at the European Council
:12:29. > :12:36.that should apply equally to both sides. The Prime Minister is already
:12:37. > :12:40.campaigning. If it is OK for one side to campaign in favour, natural
:12:41. > :12:44.justice says the other side should have an equal chance. It's only a
:12:45. > :12:50.short window, less than two weeks but there is an issue of fair play
:12:51. > :12:54.here. Liam Fox. Thank you for joining us.. Therese Coffey, let's
:12:55. > :12:55.look at this issue of sovereignty which artist is the many people in
:12:56. > :13:02.your party. What is the difference between David
:13:03. > :13:08.Cameron's red card and the Lisbon treaty's Orange card? We have made
:13:09. > :13:12.progress in many areas and I would suggest that the Orange card, as you
:13:13. > :13:16.say, is a query to the commission to think about it again. This extra red
:13:17. > :13:23.card would effectively put a block on that legislation. The red card
:13:24. > :13:28.doesn't put a block on it. Like the orange card, it asks the commission
:13:29. > :13:31.to think again, to either maintain, amend, or withdraw but it is in the
:13:32. > :13:37.power of the commission with both cards. My understanding is that
:13:38. > :13:40.there will be more power to it. In the House of Commons tonight we are
:13:41. > :13:44.doing one of these yellow cards on emotion. I think there is more to it
:13:45. > :13:52.than what was in the Lisbon Treaty. -- on a motion. The settlement which
:13:53. > :13:55.I have read says that you have 12 weeks as opposed to eight weeks
:13:56. > :14:02.under the orange card to get together 56% of European
:14:03. > :14:05.Parliaments, as opposed to 51% with the orange card, to ask the
:14:06. > :14:11.commission to think again. What is the difference? I believe that it
:14:12. > :14:16.has substantially more effect and this is why it matters. Are you
:14:17. > :14:21.saying that the red card, if you can get these Parliaments into line, the
:14:22. > :14:26.red card has the power to stop the commission? It has a more
:14:27. > :14:30.substantial effect and what is in the Lisbon to do of requiring the
:14:31. > :14:34.commission not just to say, we'll think about it and carry on, it goes
:14:35. > :14:37.back to the council and the commission, which initiates
:14:38. > :14:42.legislation so it is more substantial than what we have now.
:14:43. > :14:49.How would you rate the chances of getting 56% of Europe's Parliaments
:14:50. > :14:53.in line within a 12 week period? That depends on what the issue is. I
:14:54. > :14:57.would say that the bigger consequence is the matter is that
:14:58. > :15:03.the Prime Minister has progressed with, subsidiarity, applying that
:15:04. > :15:06.further, and closer political union. So there's more of a challenge about
:15:07. > :15:12.what legislation comes down the line. Is it credible given that you
:15:13. > :15:16.all have different holiday periods and many of the government 's under
:15:17. > :15:21.boating will have already voted for the issue, that you can get more
:15:22. > :15:25.than 15 European Parliaments to defy their governments in a period of 12
:15:26. > :15:31.weeks? Is that really a credible position? If it is a case of trying
:15:32. > :15:34.to stop laws progress in which we believe are contrary to the
:15:35. > :15:38.interests of the UK and we can work with other countries to achieve that
:15:39. > :15:43.it is a minor detail as to when someone goes on holiday or not. But
:15:44. > :15:49.if you want the votes of the other Parliament! The Polish problem and
:15:50. > :15:53.cannot vote if it is on holiday. The four errors we have made progress
:15:54. > :15:57.on, I will suggest that we will perhaps see fewer laws coming down
:15:58. > :16:02.the line which we believe should be decided in the UK rather than in the
:16:03. > :16:03.EU. That is the reference to increased used of subsidiarity. We
:16:04. > :16:14.will reinforce that, I think. The Tory election manifesto promise
:16:15. > :16:15.to stop child benefit for the children
:16:16. > :16:26.to stop child benefit for the rates of those benefits for children
:16:27. > :16:28.not resident in this country. But that wasn't what the manifesto
:16:29. > :16:32.promised, it that wasn't what the manifesto
:16:33. > :16:41.benefit. This is part of that wasn't what the manifesto
:16:42. > :16:45.negotiation. If I were a Polish person paying the same taxes and
:16:46. > :16:48.negotiation. If I were a Polish insurance in the UK, and I could not
:16:49. > :16:50.get child benefit from the Polish government in
:16:51. > :16:53.get child benefit from the Polish there is a conversation that has to
:16:54. > :16:58.be had there is a conversation that has to
:16:59. > :17:01.states. I don't think it is an unreasonable compromise. But it was
:17:02. > :17:05.not what you're manifesto promised. The Tory manifesto also promised
:17:06. > :17:09.that there would be no in work benefits for four years for migrants
:17:10. > :17:10.coming to this country. Why have you broken that promise? That is
:17:11. > :17:18.coming to this country. Why have you bit of the text where the years have
:17:19. > :17:22.not been pencilled in. This is a live negotiation for lease the next
:17:23. > :17:26.two weeks. Nobody is saying the deal has to be completed at the fabric
:17:27. > :17:27.council. But the settlement talks about graduated payments, starting
:17:28. > :17:31.from when you arrive. about graduated payments, starting
:17:32. > :17:36.affect any migrants already here, but graduated payments which will
:17:37. > :17:40.rise the longer you are here until you get to the standard rate after
:17:41. > :17:43.four years. That is not what the manifesto promised, so why have you
:17:44. > :17:47.broken that promise? You need to wait for the final deal before you
:17:48. > :17:54.can get the weather we have achieved what we set out to achieve. The
:17:55. > :18:00.Prime Minister has a record of negotiating. He has done it in the
:18:01. > :18:05.past, and last year, nobody believed any of this would be possible at
:18:06. > :18:10.all. We have made progress. The Tory manifesto also promised that there
:18:11. > :18:14.would be no social housing for migrants coming until they had been
:18:15. > :18:19.here for four years. Why is there no mention of that in the settlement? I
:18:20. > :18:22.don't believe the initial paper that has gone to the other European
:18:23. > :18:28.councils has gone into every consequence of every decision. This
:18:29. > :18:35.is a principle -based document. We have made considerable progress. Not
:18:36. > :18:39.long ago, people said there would be no chance of that. Is the Prime
:18:40. > :18:43.Minister asking for no social housing for four years? We have seen
:18:44. > :18:50.no mention of it in the settlement. I am not in the negotiations with
:18:51. > :18:53.the Prime Minister. We did pass the EU act in the last Parliament, and
:18:54. > :18:58.there will be referendums on other matters. We know if the European
:18:59. > :19:02.Union wants to take more powers away from this country, we would have
:19:03. > :19:07.that in the bank. We need to recalibrate the relationship for
:19:08. > :19:13.things like the Schengen zone and the ever closer union. There are
:19:14. > :19:20.important steps. Let me show you what William Hague said about the
:19:21. > :19:27.idea of a red card in the House of Commons in 2008. They say, look at
:19:28. > :19:32.the enhanced role of national parliaments which is set out in the
:19:33. > :19:35.treaty. If a majority in half the Parliament of the EU object to an EU
:19:36. > :19:41.measure, they might be able to block it. But once again, it does not take
:19:42. > :19:42.much analysis to work out that the chances of that mechanism being
:19:43. > :19:45.employed vanishingly small. It could be used only if 14
:19:46. > :19:47.different national Parliaments, nearly all of which have
:19:48. > :19:49.a Government majority, defeated an EU proposal,
:19:50. > :19:51.and did so within We have only to consider that
:19:52. > :19:55.for a moment, as Members of Parliament, to begin
:19:56. > :19:58.to laugh about it. Given the difficulty of oppositions
:19:59. > :20:00.winning a vote in their Parliaments, the odds against doing so in 14
:20:01. > :20:04.countries around Europe with different parliamentary
:20:05. > :20:07.recesses - lasting up to 10 weeks in our own case - are such that
:20:08. > :20:10.even if the European Commission proposed the slaughter
:20:11. > :20:12.of the first-born, it would be difficult to achieve such
:20:13. > :20:29.a remarkable conjunction Mr Hague cannot have been right then
:20:30. > :20:32.and the Prime Minister right now. He was saying it is difficult for an
:20:33. > :20:37.opposition to challenge European law, and that is still the case. No,
:20:38. > :20:43.he was saying it is impossible to get 15 European parliaments to block
:20:44. > :20:47.a commission policy. He made the point that I made about holidays as
:20:48. > :20:53.well and getting all the parliaments to meet. Now we are told that this
:20:54. > :20:59.is the Prime Minister's men grab of a return of sovereignty. As I said,
:21:00. > :21:03.I believe this has more impact than what was proposed under the Lisbon
:21:04. > :21:06.Treaty. And I believe he was saying that from the prospect of an
:21:07. > :21:12.opposition. Where you have a governing party, particularly our
:21:13. > :21:15.government, who wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, we didn't get
:21:16. > :21:19.one because it had been ratified by the time we get to power, and
:21:20. > :21:22.unfortunately Labour decided not to have one, we might have had a
:21:23. > :21:27.different scenario. But we are having a referendum and it is for 60
:21:28. > :21:32.million people to make that decision. Although you are
:21:33. > :21:37.enthusiastic about what the Prime Minister is bringing back, you will
:21:38. > :21:41.still campaign to stay in? I am a passionate pro-European. I believe
:21:42. > :21:46.our destiny lies within the European Union. Watching Nigel Farage, he
:21:47. > :21:51.can't help himself. The people's front of duty are fighting against
:21:52. > :21:55.the Judaean people's front. They are all wearing green ties in the
:21:56. > :22:05.Commons today. But they cannot unite around a common theme. In the end,
:22:06. > :22:10.voters will have to decide. Is the total package of our membership in
:22:11. > :22:13.our interests? And you think it is. We will come back to you. Just be
:22:14. > :22:15.patient. Well, after PMQs, the Prime Minister
:22:16. > :22:18.will give a statement to the House MPs are expected to discuss that
:22:19. > :22:24.until well into the afternoon. Labour's Kate Hoey,
:22:25. > :22:38.and Caroline Lucas from the Caroline Lucas, is this a deal you
:22:39. > :22:42.can support? I never supported what he was trying to achieve through the
:22:43. > :22:47.negotiation anyway. There are bigger issues at stake on as Chris Bryant
:22:48. > :22:50.said. What is at stake is whether we believe we are better off working
:22:51. > :22:53.with our European colleagues when it comes to trying to tackle the
:22:54. > :22:57.biggest challenges we face, whether that is the environmental challenge
:22:58. > :23:00.or international terrorism, I believe we are better inside the EU,
:23:01. > :23:06.working with our colleagues to do that. To me, this renegotiation is
:23:07. > :23:09.about David Cameron strutting his stuff to try to persuade his
:23:10. > :23:13.Eurosceptic backbenchers. I do not agree with some of the premises he
:23:14. > :23:18.has been trying to achieve. I think we should make a bigger case to say
:23:19. > :23:23.that if we want a secure and better off Britain, there were to do that
:23:24. > :23:28.is inside the EU. Kate Hoey, you will campaign for Britain to leave
:23:29. > :23:32.the EU, but the deal, like it or loathe it, doesn't change Labour's
:23:33. > :23:38.position of Chris Brant is not enthusiastic, but he will still
:23:39. > :23:42.campaign in -- Chris Bryant. The Labour Party has never said what it
:23:43. > :23:45.would like to see reform. It keeps talking about reform, but never says
:23:46. > :23:50.what it would like to reform. I did not support the kind of things David
:23:51. > :23:55.Cameron was asking for. I thought he would go for fundamental change. He
:23:56. > :24:00.hasn't done that. The whole thing is a sideshow. Nothing is going to
:24:01. > :24:05.change unless we can get back control of our own borders and we
:24:06. > :24:13.get control of how we make our own laws, and unless we get back control
:24:14. > :24:17.of this Parliament making decisions. All of this is a bit of frippery,
:24:18. > :24:25.and I think the public are much more sensible, because they know what
:24:26. > :24:30.they want. Kate Hoey, any sign of new Labour recruits to your side of
:24:31. > :24:36.the referendum argument? You said recently that you knew one or two
:24:37. > :24:40.shadow ministers were likely to campaign for Brexit. Are they coming
:24:41. > :24:44.forward? Yes, AI think you will see shifts in the next few weeks,
:24:45. > :24:49.particularly after the final negotiation. I do not think the
:24:50. > :24:57.referendum will come in June, because it will not work out with
:24:58. > :25:05.other issues. It is the public, in the end. MPs do not matter. Thank
:25:06. > :25:11.you both. If I can make one point, one of the light that Nigel Farage
:25:12. > :25:16.perpetuates that somehow, we were sold a lie in the 1970s and that was
:25:17. > :25:20.all to be about trade. For a start, I always thought that trade is part
:25:21. > :25:24.of politics. It is subject to political rules. Secondly, if you
:25:25. > :25:28.look at the speeches back then, it was clear that the formation of the
:25:29. > :25:34.EEC and then the European Union was all about saying we were a war-torn
:25:35. > :25:38.continent, and it was a price worth paying to sit through boring
:25:39. > :25:41.meetings in Brussels and Strasbourg and to pull a bit of our sovereignty
:25:42. > :25:46.so that we could achieve greater prosperity across the whole of the
:25:47. > :25:50.union and that we would end up, in my lifetime, Spain, Portugal and
:25:51. > :25:54.Greece were under dictatorships and will never be so again. Pooling
:25:55. > :25:55.sovereignty was a phrase that Ted Heath would never have used in the
:25:56. > :25:58.1975 referendum. Now, as a public service broadcaster
:25:59. > :26:01.it's our duty to inform, manifestly failed on all three
:26:02. > :26:06.counts, it's up to JoCo and I to try to win your affection
:26:07. > :26:09.with material goods. But at a time of straitened
:26:10. > :26:11.financial circumstances for the BBC, we had to jettison the idea
:26:12. > :26:14.of offering up box seats So we're offering this
:26:15. > :26:20.little beauty instead. To be in with a chance
:26:21. > :26:22.of winning, tell us MUSIC: Jesus To A Child
:26:23. > :26:48.by George Michael MUSIC: Don't Look Back
:26:49. > :26:50.In Anger by Oasis # But don't look back
:26:51. > :27:05.in anger, I heard you say... MUSIC: Mysterious Girl
:27:06. > :27:16.by Peter Andre I am happy to answer the grand
:27:17. > :27:20.jury's questions and look forward To be in with a chance of winning
:27:21. > :27:53.a Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special
:27:54. > :27:55.quiz email address - Entries must arrive by 12.30 today,
:27:56. > :28:02.and you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess
:28:03. > :28:05.The Year on our website - It's coming up to midday here -
:28:06. > :28:18.just take a look at Big Ben - It is a difficult day in Parliament,
:28:19. > :28:28.Questions is on its way. It is a difficult day in Parliament,
:28:29. > :28:32.because you It is a difficult day in Parliament,
:28:33. > :28:38.Minister's statement on Europe, when there will be lots of questions.
:28:39. > :28:42.What does Mr Corbyn do? It is always a balance on these kinds of days,
:28:43. > :28:45.because political leaders want to look relevant, but there is no point
:28:46. > :28:48.in labour trying out all the arguments they might
:28:49. > :28:49.in labour trying out all the statement that follows. So this
:28:50. > :28:54.morning, the Westminster is that Jeremy Corbyn
:28:55. > :28:59.will pose questions on health, not talking about Europe. He has done
:29:00. > :29:05.that from time to time. We have seen it on lots of occasions, like on the
:29:06. > :29:11.day of the junior doctors' strike. And Jeremy Corbyn chose to talk
:29:12. > :29:16.about housing on that day. We have seen two modes of Jeremy Corbyn at
:29:17. > :29:20.PMQs evolving. To start with, it was all on issues the
:29:21. > :29:21.PMQs evolving. To start with, it was suggesting. Last week with Google,
:29:22. > :29:24.he was suggesting. Last week with Google,
:29:25. > :29:28.hot button that the government was in trouble with. Today, I think we
:29:29. > :29:34.will see Corbyn Mark one. But Downing Street disappointed by this
:29:35. > :29:37.morning's front pages, or did they expect to get a kick in? They knew
:29:38. > :29:43.there was going to be a punchy attitude. They are watching the
:29:44. > :29:47.papers carefully. It is not clear where the Sun will end up where the
:29:48. > :29:51.Daily Mail or Telegraph will end up. In a sense, it doesn't matter with
:29:52. > :29:58.FrontPage is like that. Nobody reads the editorials Thomas Davies front
:29:59. > :30:02.pages. -- they don't read the editorials, they read the front
:30:03. > :30:12.pages. But as the Sun said about the deal, the FrontPage stank for Number
:30:13. > :30:15.Ten this morning. It is whether those newspapers decide to do ten
:30:16. > :30:19.pages every day all the way through until the referendum. If Jeremy is
:30:20. > :30:23.doing health today, that would be right because the majority of
:30:24. > :30:28.voters, Europe is not in the top ten for them. Immigration might be, but
:30:29. > :30:35.they are far more concerned about health and jobs. But immigration is
:30:36. > :30:38.the top of many voters' concerns, and that is the part of the deal
:30:39. > :30:43.that David Cameron has problems with. Yes, the ink is not dry. The
:30:44. > :30:49.ink has not even been filled in on the deal. But it is clear that the
:30:50. > :30:59.manifesto is much younger than the draft deal is. Let's go to PMQs.
:31:00. > :31:11.In addition to my duties in this house holed I shall have further
:31:12. > :31:17.meetings today. Jon. Mr Speaker, is that it, is that the best the Prime
:31:18. > :31:22.Minister can do? Nothing for British pensioners? Nothing for British
:31:23. > :31:27.workers and as the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Treasury have
:31:28. > :31:33.confirmed, his long-term economic plan is reliant on over 1 million
:31:34. > :31:37.new migrants entering this country before 2020! Has the Prime Minister
:31:38. > :31:44.got the bottle to confirm this inconvenient truth? I'll tell you
:31:45. > :31:48.what we are doing for pensioners, a triple lock on pensions. Never again
:31:49. > :31:56.be 75p rise that they got from the Labour Party with prices and wages
:31:57. > :32:00.at two and half percent. What we are doing from people who work hard in
:32:01. > :32:05.Britain is create 2.3 million more jobs since I became Prime Minister.
:32:06. > :32:09.Of course I believe we will succeed more as a country if we get a good
:32:10. > :32:13.deal in Europe and stay in a reformed Europe. It will be good for
:32:14. > :32:22.jobs, for investment, for growth and that is what I'm fighting for.
:32:23. > :32:26.Marcus Fish. People in my constituency, Yeovil, are rightly
:32:27. > :32:29.proud of their contribution to the defence of this country, whether
:32:30. > :32:33.through the skill and redness of the fleet arm at your fill all the local
:32:34. > :32:37.high-tech industry making and maintaining helicopters and
:32:38. > :32:42.equipment for ships and aircraft and those who serve on them. In the
:32:43. > :32:45.current circumstances of increasing security challenges and
:32:46. > :32:49.responsibilities and a worrying lack of commitment to defence in many
:32:50. > :32:54.European countries, I welcome the leadership, the government has shown
:32:55. > :32:58.in committing to spend 2% of GDP on defence and I ask whether my right
:32:59. > :33:06.honourable friend will meet with me to discuss ideas that I have two
:33:07. > :33:09.build on local capability. My friend friend is absolutely right that your
:33:10. > :33:15.fill makes a huge contribution to the defence of our country, not
:33:16. > :33:20.least through Augusta Western, a big dish business. We are committed to
:33:21. > :33:23.spending ?178 billion on defence equipment over the next decade,
:33:24. > :33:27.something we can only do because we have a strong economy. We are
:33:28. > :33:31.committed to that 2% and will make sure the money is well spent and
:33:32. > :33:37.making sure we have the right equipment for our brave Armed
:33:38. > :33:47.Forces. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Tomorrow, Mr Speaker, is
:33:48. > :33:52.world comes a day. Cancer is a disease that almost every family in
:33:53. > :33:56.this country has been affected by. Two and a half million people in
:33:57. > :34:02.this country have cancer. There are members on both sides of this House
:34:03. > :34:06.who have or have received treatment. 1000 people every day diagnosed with
:34:07. > :34:10.cancer and go through a trauma as soon as they are diagnosed. Accent
:34:11. > :34:15.in the last year there's been a 36% increase in the number of people
:34:16. > :34:18.waiting more than six weeks for vital diagnostic tests. Could the
:34:19. > :34:24.Prime Minister two something to bring that down? First I agree with
:34:25. > :34:28.the right honourable gentleman that the fight against cancer is one of
:34:29. > :34:32.the great fights of our time, one we are determined to win. When we look
:34:33. > :34:36.at the way we treated in this country we are putting an extra ?19
:34:37. > :34:41.billion into the NHS and specifically while he is right,
:34:42. > :34:46.everyone in this House and every family will know somebody affected
:34:47. > :34:52.by cancer, we are treating more patientss. The figures. Compared
:34:53. > :35:04.with 2010, over 645,000 more patients with suspected
:35:05. > :35:07.cancers have been seen, an increase of 71% and almost 40,000 more
:35:08. > :35:09.patients have been treated. An increase of 17%. We have more
:35:10. > :35:12.doctors, nurses, more cancer specialists but the fight against it
:35:13. > :35:17.is something we need to continue with. Jeremy Corbyn. Mr Speaker,
:35:18. > :35:22.early diagnosis is essential when dealing with cancer. I think we all
:35:23. > :35:26.know that from personal experience. The government 's independent task
:35:27. > :35:29.force into cancer reported last year, and I quote, we currently have
:35:30. > :35:33.a serious shortage of radiologists in England. We need more of them so
:35:34. > :35:38.could the Prime Minister explain why we are cutting by 5% the number of
:35:39. > :35:44.training places available for therapeutic radiographers? We need
:35:45. > :35:48.more radiologists and we are getting them because we are putting more
:35:49. > :35:52.into the NHS. Where he is right is that waiting times, a moment ago the
:35:53. > :35:57.right honourable lady was shouting about waiting times, there are three
:35:58. > :36:00.key targets on them. First that people should be seen by a
:36:01. > :36:05.specialist within two weeks of an urgent GP referral, and we're meant
:36:06. > :36:11.to be on 93% of occasions, we are currently on 94.7, we need to make
:36:12. > :36:16.sure that the first treatment comes within 31 days of diagnosis, that's
:36:17. > :36:20.very important, there's a 96% standard and we meeting that by
:36:21. > :36:25.97.7%. Yet I accept that when it comes to the first treatment within
:36:26. > :36:31.62 days the standard is 85% and we are at 82.5 so we must improve. With
:36:32. > :36:35.training, we are increasing training places in the NHS, we discussed
:36:36. > :36:43.nurses last week where we are opening up nurse training by making
:36:44. > :36:45.sure that we train an extra 10,000 nurses but the crucial point is that
:36:46. > :36:50.the money is there in the NHS because we've got a strong economy.
:36:51. > :36:58.?19 billion of money which would never be there if we followed his
:36:59. > :37:02.crazy economic plans! Jeremy Corbyn. Mr Speaker, my question was on
:37:03. > :37:05.therapeutic radiographers. The Prime Minister did not answer on that.
:37:06. > :37:08.Without an improvement in the numbers available there will be a
:37:09. > :37:14.problem with treatment, that must be obvious to everyone. The cancer task
:37:15. > :37:19.force also asks, and I could, for a radical upgrade in prevention and
:37:20. > :37:23.public health. Programmes like stopping smoking and anti-obesity
:37:24. > :37:28.absolutely essential to stop the spread of cancer and indeed to help
:37:29. > :37:33.people live better lives so they don't develop cancer at all. Yet if
:37:34. > :37:37.we cut, as he proposes, ?200 million from the Public health budget,
:37:38. > :37:41.surely that is going to lead to an increase in cancer, with all the
:37:42. > :37:45.trauma that goes with it, and indeed the greater cost for the rest of the
:37:46. > :37:51.community. Could he explain why he is making this cut? First of all,
:37:52. > :37:56.but to diagnostic radiographers, there are 1800 more diagnostic
:37:57. > :38:03.radiographers than when I became Prime Minister in 2010. As for the
:38:04. > :38:07.interests... That is a 15% increase. The reason that there is an increase
:38:08. > :38:13.is that we said that we would put more money into the NHS, a real
:38:14. > :38:18.terms increase, something we were told by the then Shadow Health
:38:19. > :38:21.Secretary was then irresponsible. We ignored Labour and would put money
:38:22. > :38:26.into the health service. As a result, there's been a 15% increase
:38:27. > :38:31.in diagnostic radiographers. When it comes to the rest of the Cancer
:38:32. > :38:35.plan, the money is being invested, there is a key difference, though,
:38:36. > :38:39.between England and Wales and something he can help with, is that
:38:40. > :38:42.there is a Labour government in Wales. Whereas we have a Cancer
:38:43. > :38:50.Drugs Fund, they don't have one in Wales. So he needs to sort that out
:38:51. > :38:55.with that Labour Administration. As for public health, under this
:38:56. > :38:59.government, real advances have been made on public health, including
:39:00. > :39:04.smoking rules in the backs of cars, including plain paper packaging, and
:39:05. > :39:13.ring fencing public health budgets. All done and the Conservatives, not
:39:14. > :39:16.done under Labour. Jeremy Corbyn. Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister is
:39:17. > :39:21.responsible for the health service in England. Wales is a devolved
:39:22. > :39:26.matter. He must be aware... SHOUTING
:39:27. > :39:29.And he must know that cancer surviving rates are improving better
:39:30. > :39:48.in Wales than in any other part of the UK. But my question was... My
:39:49. > :39:52.question, Mr Speaker, was about the cuts in public health budgets and
:39:53. > :39:59.the effect that has on cancer care. Could the Prime Minister tell us
:40:00. > :40:01.when was the last time that the NHS targets are starting cancer
:40:02. > :40:07.treatment was met with in the 62 days required? As I have
:40:08. > :40:10.treatment was met with in the 62 the three big targets we are meeting
:40:11. > :40:14.the specialist within two weeks target and meeting the first
:40:15. > :40:17.treatment within 31 days of diagnosis treatment and we are
:40:18. > :40:17.treatment within 31 days of currently falling short of the 62
:40:18. > :40:19.days target, something currently falling short of the 62
:40:20. > :40:26.said in the answer to question two currently falling short of the 62
:40:27. > :40:31.but he has not got around to it until question five. The cogs need
:40:32. > :40:36.to turn a little faster! He can't wash his hands of the situation in
:40:37. > :40:43.Wales, Labour run Wales. And what have they done in Wales? They have
:40:44. > :40:49.cut the NHS in Wales! Now it is emerging, what Labour's great plan
:40:50. > :40:53.is, cut the NHS in Wales and raise income tax on hard-working people in
:40:54. > :40:56.Scotland. That's right. What will they do to radiographers in
:40:57. > :41:02.Scotland, raise their taxes. What will they do to nurses in Scotland
:41:03. > :41:06.or dentists? Raise their taxes. We now know the Labour plan, higher
:41:07. > :41:14.taxes for more welfare, they have learned nothing in the last decade!
:41:15. > :41:18.Mr Speaker, the last time the two months target was mad was 19 months
:41:19. > :41:23.ago. The Prime Minister must be aware of that. -- the last time it
:41:24. > :41:27.was mad. I am pleased that he is taking action to make sure that
:41:28. > :41:30.doesn't continue all get worse. Another issue that affects cancer
:41:31. > :41:36.patient Dexter is the recently division and -- deleted provisions
:41:37. > :41:43.in the Welfare Reform Bill that would have taken money from the
:41:44. > :41:46.group. Martin, who contacted me this week, says, yes, it is funny the
:41:47. > :41:54.many members opposite, it isn't funny for Martin. Martin has a close
:41:55. > :41:58.friend who has breast cancer, and I quote, is obviously too unwell to
:41:59. > :42:04.work, and cuts will put her into hardship at a time when she is most
:42:05. > :42:08.vulnerable. There are 3200 people with cancer hit by this cut to the
:42:09. > :42:13.essay. Will the Prime Minister now confirm that when that matter
:42:14. > :42:17.returns to the House of Commons, he would ensure that the Lord's's
:42:18. > :42:23.position is app out and people like her don't suffer the cut that he
:42:24. > :42:31.wanted to make in the first place? -- the position is upheld. Let me
:42:32. > :42:33.tell you the situation. Though two sorts of support allowance, the
:42:34. > :42:38.work-related activity group who are able to train for work and the
:42:39. > :42:41.support group will go on getting employment and support allowance
:42:42. > :42:45.indefinitely. That's the situation. We have said that in future the
:42:46. > :42:49.work-related activity group should be paid at the same rate as
:42:50. > :42:53.jobseeker's allowance but that is for future claimants, not for
:42:54. > :42:58.existing claimants. They will continue to be paid at the same
:42:59. > :43:02.rate. Of course if someone has cancer and cannot work they should
:43:03. > :43:07.be in the support group. We've had this issue looked at again and again
:43:08. > :43:11.and again. If they cannot work they go on getting the welfare payments
:43:12. > :43:14.they need. That is what a compassionate conservative
:43:15. > :43:20.government does. But I have to come back to him because he cannot wash
:43:21. > :43:26.is hands of the situation in Wales. Hip operations in England take 75
:43:27. > :43:35.days waiting times on average, in Wales, its 197 days. Diagnosis of
:43:36. > :43:38.pneumonia takes two weeks longer, treatment of cataracts, Ernie Els,
:43:39. > :43:44.heart operations take two months longer than in England. Labour are
:43:45. > :43:50.running Wales. He is responsible for Labour. The phone and tell them to
:43:51. > :43:58.stop cutting our NHS! Keen Jeremy Corbyn. Mr Speaker it is interesting
:43:59. > :44:02.that the Prime Minister did not answer the question iPod. Which is
:44:03. > :44:10.whether or not he will proceed with the cut in the essay to 3200 people
:44:11. > :44:13.with cancer at present. -- in the support allowance. I hope he thinks
:44:14. > :44:18.seriously about this and doesn't proceed with this proposal. He'll
:44:19. > :44:22.find that MacMillan Cancer Support, rethink Meltham illness, Parkinson's
:44:23. > :44:26.UK are all united in opposing this cut because of the affected will
:44:27. > :44:30.have on people with a range of serious conditions. The Prime
:44:31. > :44:35.Minister used to say that those with the broadest shoulders should bear a
:44:36. > :44:41.greater load. Can it be right that cancer patients and those with
:44:42. > :44:46.disabilities on ?102 a week really are those with the broadest
:44:47. > :44:49.shoulders who should bear this cut? Please, Prime Minister, think again,
:44:50. > :44:54.and don't try to reverse the decision of the House of Lords on
:44:55. > :44:57.this important matter. The people with the broadest shoulders are the
:44:58. > :45:02.highest earners in this country and they are paying a higher share of
:45:03. > :45:07.tax and the ever did under labour. That money is paying for the NHS and
:45:08. > :45:10.the welfare assistant. I am the question very directly. If you are
:45:11. > :45:15.an existing claimant unemployment and support allowance welfare not
:45:16. > :45:20.changing. But in future those people who are able to work, we should help
:45:21. > :45:23.them to get back to work, that is what a compassionate country does
:45:24. > :45:29.when it is quite clear what the Labour policy is, cut the NHS in
:45:30. > :45:31.Wales and raise taxes in Scotland to pay for more welfare. That's not the
:45:32. > :45:39.approach this David Warburton. My right honourable
:45:40. > :45:43.friend will know the West Country is becoming ever more the envy and the
:45:44. > :45:49.engine room of the rest of the country, with dozens of companies
:45:50. > :45:54.moving from the dark recesses of London to the bright sunlight of the
:45:55. > :45:59.West. Will he keep supporting what they are now calling Somerset's
:46:00. > :46:06.Silicon Gorge by maintaining investment in our roads, rail and
:46:07. > :46:12.digital infrastructure? I am certainly keen to support Silicon
:46:13. > :46:18.Gorge. For a moment, I thought he said Silicon George! It is essential
:46:19. > :46:22.that we have a balanced economy, and that means a strong economy in the
:46:23. > :46:25.west of our country as well as in the South and the north. We are
:46:26. > :46:29.investing in the transport infrastructure, not least the vital
:46:30. > :46:33.roads to the West Country, and improving rail links as well, as I
:46:34. > :46:37.saw for myself yesterday in Chippenham. We also need to Mitch
:46:38. > :46:42.with this broadband roll-out is effective across the country, and
:46:43. > :46:46.that has to be a big focus getting to the last 10% of homes in so many
:46:47. > :46:51.rural areas. It is crucial to make sure they are not left out. Angus
:46:52. > :46:56.Robertson. The timing of the forthcoming European Union
:46:57. > :47:00.referendum is extremely important. Today, the first ministers of
:47:01. > :47:03.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have jointly called for a commitment
:47:04. > :47:09.by the UK Government not to hold the EU referendum in June, which would
:47:10. > :47:16.clash with elections to the devolved legislatures. Will the Prime
:47:17. > :47:19.Minister give that commitment today? Firstly, there is no agreement, so
:47:20. > :47:24.no date has yet been fixed for the referendum. We discuss this a lot in
:47:25. > :47:27.the House of Commons, and we legislate to make sure we wouldn't
:47:28. > :47:32.hold the referendum at the same time as Scottish or Welsh elections. The
:47:33. > :47:36.former First Minister of Scotland, who is not in his place today, said
:47:37. > :47:39.it would be wrong to hold the referendum within six weeks of those
:47:40. > :47:46.elections, and I can guarantee that will not happen. The first ministers
:47:47. > :47:48.of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have written today, saying
:47:49. > :47:55.that they believe holding a referendum in June "Risks confusing
:47:56. > :48:00.issues when clarity is required, and call upon the Prime Minister to
:48:01. > :48:06.defer the EU referendum at least until later in the year". Why will
:48:07. > :48:10.the Prime Minister not respect the electorate and the governments of
:48:11. > :48:16.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and give that commitment today? I do
:48:17. > :48:21.respect the former First Minister of Scotland, who said that six weeks
:48:22. > :48:25.was necessary. I also respect the electrodes of England, Scotland,
:48:26. > :48:27.Wales and Northern Ireland on the basis that I think people are
:48:28. > :48:32.perfectly capable of making up their minds in a local election or a
:48:33. > :48:36.Scottish Parliamentary election or a Welsh assembly election, and then,
:48:37. > :48:43.some weeks afterwards, making up their mind on the vital question of
:48:44. > :48:47.the European Union. No date has been fixed. There must be a six-week gap,
:48:48. > :48:53.but I think he is looking for things to complain about. This House has
:48:54. > :48:56.voted for a referendum. It would be odd if having voted for a
:48:57. > :49:02.referendum, we then spent ages not having one. The Prime Minister will
:49:03. > :49:10.be alarmed to hear that a shop in Gillingham selling illicit tobacco
:49:11. > :49:12.was making ?25,000. Order. Excessive chuntering from a sedentary position
:49:13. > :49:16.from a number of Scottish National Party members who wanted a hearing
:49:17. > :49:19.for their leader. The honourable gentleman is entitled to be heard. I
:49:20. > :49:24.appeal to the honourable gentleman to start his question again. The
:49:25. > :49:31.Prime Minister will be alarmed to hear that a shopping Gillingham
:49:32. > :49:34.selling illicit tobacco was making ?25,000 a week, destroying the local
:49:35. > :49:39.economy, damaging people's health and nationally, this trade is
:49:40. > :49:43.cutting the economy 2 billion a year. Will the government to look at
:49:44. > :49:46.increasing the statutory maximum penalty for this offence to bring it
:49:47. > :49:54.in line with the supply of class A drugs? -- Kas C drugs? I will look
:49:55. > :50:00.at the issue my honourable friend races. HMRC, working closely with
:50:01. > :50:04.the Border Force, has been effective in reducing this tax gap of people
:50:05. > :50:08.selling illegal tobacco, and have closed off 1.3 billion of tax gaps
:50:09. > :50:13.since 2000. They have sanctions to deal with illicit sales, including
:50:14. > :50:18.seizure, penalties and criminal situations. They prosecuted almost
:50:19. > :50:21.800 different people in the last two years, so I think the powers are
:50:22. > :50:27.there, but I will see if more is needed. My constituent works for the
:50:28. > :50:31.DWP and tells me that the government is correct when they deny that staff
:50:32. > :50:34.have targets set for sanctioning benefits. They are not called
:50:35. > :50:35.targets, they are