:00:38. > :00:43.David Cameron promises to put "beyond doubt" the sovereignty
:00:44. > :00:47.of Parliament over the European Union.
:00:48. > :00:49.The Prime Minister will acede to demands from Boris Johnson
:00:50. > :00:54.for a new law to assert the authority of Westminster over
:00:55. > :01:02.World leaders gather in London for a conference on Syria
:01:03. > :01:06.while Russian jets pummell Aleppo and peace talks break down.
:01:07. > :01:09.Will billions more for Syrian refugees make much of a difference
:01:10. > :01:13.Whatever happened to Labour's eurosceptics?
:01:14. > :01:17.Lots of them voted No in 1975, so where are they now?
:01:18. > :01:23.And, it all came down to the toss of a coin
:01:24. > :01:33.So just how important is coin tossing in the democratic process?
:01:34. > :01:37.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:38. > :01:40.of the programme today is the former Labour Foreign Secretary,
:01:41. > :01:49.First this morning, world leaders have descended on Westminster today
:01:50. > :01:52.in an attempt to raise over ?6 billion to help those
:01:53. > :02:00.David Cameron has pledged an additional ?1.2 billion
:02:01. > :02:06.in aid to support refugees in the region.
:02:07. > :02:12.-- that's on top of the ?1 billion we have spent in the area.
:02:13. > :02:14.Here is the Prime Minister speaking earlier today.
:02:15. > :02:17.If ever there was a moment to take a new approach to the humanitarian
:02:18. > :02:22.We are facing a critical short fall in life-saving aid,
:02:23. > :02:28.that is fatally holding back our humanitarian efforts.
:02:29. > :02:30.And after years of conflict, we are witnessing a desperate
:02:31. > :02:35.movement of humanity, as hundreds of thousands of Syrians
:02:36. > :02:38.fear they have no alternative than to put their lives in the hands
:02:39. > :02:46.of evil people smugglers, in search of a future.
:02:47. > :02:48.We're joined now by our correspondent, Ben Brown,
:02:49. > :02:54.who's at the conference in Westminster.
:02:55. > :03:02.He is with David Miliband. On the Daily Politics, you get two Labour
:03:03. > :03:09.former Foreign Secretaries for the price of one. Over to you, Mr Brown.
:03:10. > :03:15.Well, international leaders at the London Syria Donor's Conference
:03:16. > :03:23.being asked to dig deep. ?9 billen is the amount that has been asked
:03:24. > :03:27.for. $9 billion. Let's talk to David Miliband straight away. David
:03:28. > :03:31.Cameron promising ?1.2 billion, another ?1 billion of tax payers'
:03:32. > :03:36.money for this emergency. Is that money well-spent? How do you justify
:03:37. > :03:40.that to a British taxpayer? I think thats is necessary. It is not a
:03:41. > :03:43.matter of being the right thing to do, because these are people in
:03:44. > :03:46.desperate need, both inside Syria and the neighbouring state. It is
:03:47. > :03:49.also a smart thing to do. All the evidence is that unless the
:03:50. > :03:53.humanitarian needs are met, that there will be an exodus from the
:03:54. > :03:58.Middle East and Europe will be in the frontline T makes sense to do
:03:59. > :04:04.this, as well as being the right thing to do. -- it makes It so it is
:04:05. > :04:09.essentially in Europe and Britain's self-interest to spend money in
:04:10. > :04:11.countries like Jordon, Turkey, Lebanon, almost to persuade the
:04:12. > :04:16.millions of refugees it stay there, not to come to Europe. It is a
:04:17. > :04:21.matter of global instability. The idea it is a Syrian war is wrong. It
:04:22. > :04:24.is a contagion that has spread across the Middle East. The exodus
:04:25. > :04:29.of a million people coming to Europe last year shows the price of the
:04:30. > :04:34.political failure to bring this war to a close P my organisation has
:04:35. > :04:38.2,000 staff inside Syria. Daily barrel bombs, daily Russian bombing
:04:39. > :04:42.raids and terror devices and for those who flee in the neighbouring
:04:43. > :04:45.states, 200,000 kids without education in Lebanon. Hundreds of
:04:46. > :04:51.thousands of people without jobs in Jordon. There needs to be a new deal
:04:52. > :04:56.for those refugees. To be fair to the Government they are recognising
:04:57. > :05:00.the need for more aid which you pointed to but different aid,
:05:01. > :05:03.long-term economic health, not just short-term humanitarian financing.
:05:04. > :05:07.The emphasis of the British Government here is very much helping
:05:08. > :05:11.the refugees who have stayed in the region, in Lebanon and Turkey, but
:05:12. > :05:13.not on helping those who have come to Europe. Is that the right
:05:14. > :05:18.approach, David Cameron's approach The truth is, you have to do both.
:05:19. > :05:22.Most of the refugees are the anybody nag states of Syria. You wouldn't
:05:23. > :05:27.know that from the media comment. You would think they were in Europe
:05:28. > :05:32.but a country like Jordan, 20% of the population is Syrian refugees. A
:05:33. > :05:36.country like Lebanon, 40% are Syrian refugees. Those countries are
:05:37. > :05:39.bearing the brunt of the load. For those in Europe, I think there is a
:05:40. > :05:42.strong case that Europe has to justify and address the refugee
:05:43. > :05:45.needs they have got. Refugees have rights in international law that
:05:46. > :05:48.should be represented. People like me think Britain should be playing
:05:49. > :05:53.its part in that. You have to do both. It is right to work in the
:05:54. > :05:56.region but it is also right to recognise that those fleeing for
:05:57. > :05:59.their lives need to be looked after OK, David mill bant of the
:06:00. > :06:04.Commission on International Rescue, stay with us. -- David Miliband. The
:06:05. > :06:09.track record on the conference coming up with the cash it has been
:06:10. > :06:11.asked for is not great. The last year, the international can be
:06:12. > :06:16.community have only come up with 50% of the money that has been pledged.
:06:17. > :06:19.We will see what happens this time around. Thank you very much Ben
:06:20. > :06:23.Brown, there, outside the international conference on aid for
:06:24. > :06:26.Syria. The humanitarian case for sending
:06:27. > :06:30.aid and more aid is clear but the argument that if we do that t stops
:06:31. > :06:39.them becoming migrants, I would suggest is not so clear. We have
:06:40. > :06:44.already given ?1 billion and this January alone, 767,000 migrants came
:06:45. > :06:48.to Europe from that and other regions, verses 5,000 in January
:06:49. > :06:52.2015. -- 67,000. I don't think anybody would suggest it would stop
:06:53. > :06:56.all of them but something a lot of people have forgotten is blast year
:06:57. > :07:02.at a fairly crucial time, because the money, as Ben was just saying,
:07:03. > :07:03.wasn't coming in that people had promised, the international
:07:04. > :07:08.organisations actually cut the funding that was going to people.
:07:09. > :07:11.They cut the food aid. They cut the money people were receiving and
:07:12. > :07:14.that's what lay behind that sudden great surge of people. If that
:07:15. > :07:18.happens again, then, yes, that will increase the pressure on people
:07:19. > :07:23.wanting to leave. But, clearly, there are substantial numbers of
:07:24. > :07:27.people who do prefer to stay in the region, to stay in the locality but
:07:28. > :07:31.they won't, if they can't provide for their families there, the
:07:32. > :07:36.security they left Syria to achieve. But even if we double the money and
:07:37. > :07:42.if, unlike last time countries that make promises live up to their
:07:43. > :07:47.promises, which as Ben Brown was pointing out, they didn't, are we
:07:48. > :07:50.seriously saying we are going to create sustainable communities with
:07:51. > :07:54.jobs and education in the refugee catches? I mean, we have got - there
:07:55. > :07:59.is a picture of one that we can probably put up on the screen now,
:08:00. > :08:04.just to give an idea of the scale of this. I mean they are all over
:08:05. > :08:07.Jordan now and they are in other parts of the area, on the edge of
:08:08. > :08:13.Turkey. Are we seriously saying that - even if we were to pump billion
:08:14. > :08:20.upon billion in, that we can make sustainable communities out of that?
:08:21. > :08:24.That? I understand and share your anxiety, if you like and scepticism,
:08:25. > :08:28.not least because, you know n lots of countries, including this one,
:08:29. > :08:32.creating jobs is not always that easy. And that's what we are talking
:08:33. > :08:40.about doing. On the other hand, I do think it is worth trying. . The
:08:41. > :08:44.situation is so desperate you have to try anything. And something that
:08:45. > :08:48.could make the lives of these people in the camps better, whether they
:08:49. > :08:52.are in the region or in Europe, has to be the right way to go. Obviously
:08:53. > :08:57.when you see the camps you want to do what you can to at least make
:08:58. > :09:00.life bearable until there is a solution sorted out but there is
:09:01. > :09:05.another problem. As we speak and as they gore for this enormous --
:09:06. > :09:10.gather for this enormous conference down the frood here, Assad's forces
:09:11. > :09:15.and Russian bombers are thumping the surrounding areas of Aleppo as we go
:09:16. > :09:20.on and the peace talks have had to be suspended in general eva, as we
:09:21. > :09:23.spend -- Geneva. As we spend, thousands and thousands more
:09:24. > :09:28.refugees are being created. There is clearly very much that risk and
:09:29. > :09:32.that's why it is important not to - I mean, I understand anybody who
:09:33. > :09:38.says - I look at and that I despair, there is nothing we can do. But that
:09:39. > :09:48.will only make things worse. It is a council of despair. We have to try.
:09:49. > :09:52.Well Well, let's stay in the region. Now, it's been over two months
:09:53. > :09:54.since the House of Commons voted to extend British airstrikes
:09:55. > :09:56.targeting the so-called Islamic State group
:09:57. > :09:58.from Iraq into Syria. But as the media focus
:09:59. > :10:00.on the parliamentary debate has subsided, what action has the RAF
:10:01. > :10:03.actually been taking? around Mosul and Ramadi
:10:04. > :10:11.which are both in Iraq. Since the 29th January,
:10:12. > :10:16.the RAF has carried out four separate air strikes around
:10:17. > :10:24.the area of Mosul in Iraq. and also an attack near
:10:25. > :10:36.the Kisik Junction both in Iraq. On Friday and Sunday there were also
:10:37. > :10:38.RAF air strikes carried out We're joined now by our
:10:39. > :10:54.correspondent Paul Adams. RAF air strikes are obviously taking
:10:55. > :10:57.part in coalition force air strikes. Do we have any idea of what our,
:10:58. > :11:01.what British air strikes are Do we have any idea of what our,
:11:02. > :11:06.Well, as you just outlined, the bulk Do we have any idea of what our,
:11:07. > :11:09.of the operations remain in Iraq and you have explained why that is,
:11:10. > :11:12.because there are ground operations and in a way that is not the case in
:11:13. > :11:17.Syria. So we are and in a way that is not the case in
:11:18. > :11:21.activity still around Ramadi, which was recaptured
:11:22. > :11:35.activity still around Ramadi, which situation remains
:11:36. > :11:37.activity still around Ramadi, which there is a lot of focus
:11:38. > :11:40.activity still around Ramadi, which soften-up ISIS
:11:41. > :11:44.activity still around Ramadi, which of Defence won't give
:11:45. > :11:46.if you like, a national breakdown on achievements but they do say
:11:47. > :11:51.if you like, a national breakdown on the course of these operations - and
:11:52. > :11:53.by the way the tempo of the operations has
:11:54. > :11:56.by the way the tempo of the dramatically since December. The
:11:57. > :11:58.Ministry of Defence says it roughly trebled
:11:59. > :12:03.Ministry of Defence says it roughly involvement. But the overall effect
:12:04. > :12:08.they say is so-called Islamic State has lost around 24% of the territory
:12:09. > :12:13.it he previously controlled in Iraq and around about 10% in Syria. They
:12:14. > :12:18.talk about operations going back to Tikrit. And they talk about the
:12:19. > :12:23.impact on oil revenues. A 30% cut on the oil revenue that is so-called
:12:24. > :12:24.Islamic State can achieve and a 10% cut in its overall available budget.
:12:25. > :12:28.They think the air strikes cut in its overall available budget.
:12:29. > :12:32.having an impact but, of course, it's difficult to see that
:12:33. > :12:40.having an impact but, of course, when ISIS retains its grip, if
:12:41. > :12:40.having an impact but, of course, tactical operations in
:12:41. > :12:52.countries. What are you hearing, Paul, perhaps, about widening the
:12:53. > :12:55.war against Islamic State to the med terry andian coastline of --
:12:56. > :12:59.Mediterranean coastline of Libya, where they appear to be well
:13:00. > :13:02.ensconced If you remember the terrorist attacks in last year in
:13:03. > :13:07.Tunisia, there was a strong connection to that. Growing fears
:13:08. > :13:11.about whether Libya could emerge as a significant IS base. Reports
:13:12. > :13:18.recently that a number of IS figures from Iraq and Syria have moved to
:13:19. > :13:21.Libya. So, yes, there are clearly efforts being undertaken to examine
:13:22. > :13:25.the possibilities for widening the campaign. There is a British
:13:26. > :13:30.training operation that's ready to go. It is just waiting for an
:13:31. > :13:38.invitation from the Libyans to go in there. There were reports of
:13:39. > :13:41.intelligence and SAS elements going into eastern Libya to possibly
:13:42. > :13:44.prepare the ground for some kind of operations. The Ministry of Defence
:13:45. > :13:49.say there is no immediate prospect of any of that. But I don't think
:13:50. > :13:54.anyone will be surprised if, in the coming months, we didn't seat US-led
:13:55. > :13:56.coalition, and various members of that coalition turning their
:13:57. > :14:00.attention to Libya and mounting air strikes. -- if we didn't see the
:14:01. > :14:07.US-led coalition. There is a threat. Thank you for
:14:08. > :14:11.filling us in. Margaret Beckett, it would be fair to say, as regards
:14:12. > :14:14.Syria the extension of air strikes to Syria hasn't made much of a
:14:15. > :14:17.difference yet Well, if you recall, during the debate we had in the
:14:18. > :14:21.House of Commons, there was this curious sort of mixture that on the
:14:22. > :14:24.one hand, obviously it was an important decision of principle and
:14:25. > :14:27.one that people attached great significance to, but on the other
:14:28. > :14:32.hand, the step we were taking was really very small. It is just to
:14:33. > :14:37.say, the RAF no longer has to stop at the border. And that was quite a
:14:38. > :14:42.stark contrast that did emerge in that debate. So, yes, they are doing
:14:43. > :14:45.a great deal but one of the things I think is interesting and useful, is
:14:46. > :14:48.that those who argued we should still stop at the border, shouldn't
:14:49. > :14:52.have any involvement in Syria a lot of that you are argument was - we
:14:53. > :14:56.should be going instead for their sources of funding and so on and of
:14:57. > :15:00.course that's exactly what the RAF is doing. The in sense of what is
:15:01. > :15:07.bombing, the boils? Bombing oil wells. The US Air Force seemed to
:15:08. > :15:08.bomb the bank in Mosul and blew up several hundred million dollars Alf
:15:09. > :15:18.You don't regret your support for new kind of military pollcy. Yes.
:15:19. > :15:22.You don't regret your support for extending the bombing? No, I don't.
:15:23. > :15:27.It wasn't an easy decision for anyone but as I say, is a matter of
:15:28. > :15:32.principle it was important that it was the House of Commons taking the
:15:33. > :15:37.decision but in practice it was a small step that we were authorising.
:15:38. > :15:41.Do you now get the impression, given that the Iraqi army and other forces
:15:42. > :15:46.have made some progress in reclaiming some towns, and we hear
:15:47. > :15:53.these reports, those of us who remember the Vietnam War are always
:15:54. > :15:57.dubious unofficial body counts. We hear that Islamic State is
:15:58. > :16:02.suffering. I saw some reports that a number of fighters were moving into
:16:03. > :16:07.Raqqa because it was dangerous with the bombing around there. Do you get
:16:08. > :16:10.the sense that they are now on the defensive? 18 months ago it seemed
:16:11. > :16:15.as though they were taking all before them. It seems to me as
:16:16. > :16:22.though some impact has been achieved because it's not very long ago that
:16:23. > :16:25.people were talking about them being on the brink of taking Baghdad and
:16:26. > :16:32.now they will take the whole of Iraq, but that is not happen. Yes,
:16:33. > :16:35.it's slow, and no doubt very painful, but it seems as though it
:16:36. > :16:38.is making a difference and that's the point. We will keep an eye on
:16:39. > :16:39.what's happening. The question for today
:16:40. > :16:43.is what narrowly missed hitting Margaret in the chamber
:16:44. > :16:53.yesterday? B, a copy of the Beckett report
:16:54. > :16:58.into why Labour lost the election? At the end of the show Margaret
:16:59. > :17:04.will give us the correct answer. David Cameron has suggested he may
:17:05. > :17:07.bring forward legislation to ensure the sovereignty of
:17:08. > :17:15.Parliament over the EU. The Prime Minister was responding
:17:16. > :17:20.to a question yesterday from the Mayor of London,
:17:21. > :17:22.and Tory MP Boris Johnson. Mr Cameron said he was "keen to do
:17:23. > :17:25.more" to reassert the authority of the Commons at the same time
:17:26. > :17:28.as concluding his EU renegotiation. The Prime Minister said
:17:29. > :17:33.he would "put beyond doubt" the sovereignty of Parliament
:17:34. > :17:35.when in exchanges in with Boris This could come through beefing up
:17:36. > :17:40.the Supreme Court to make it analagous with the German
:17:41. > :17:44.Constuitutional Court - which reviews legislation inlcuding
:17:45. > :17:46.EU law to ensure compliance Of course, Germany has a written
:17:47. > :17:52.constitution. However, it has been suggested that
:17:53. > :17:55.such changes would be largely symbolic as there is no suggestion
:17:56. > :17:58.it could actually veto EU law. And of course the German courts
:17:59. > :18:02.never has. It is thought Mr Cameron is keen
:18:03. > :18:05.for the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, to lead these changes,
:18:06. > :18:08.though Mr Gove is said to be caught between his "conscience" and loyalty
:18:09. > :18:10.to the Prime Minister. A sovereignty law is also
:18:11. > :18:14.being drafted by policy chief Oliver Letwin,
:18:15. > :18:19.but some are sceptical about how the UK could effectively "disapply"
:18:20. > :18:21.EU law without massive fines and throwing our
:18:22. > :18:29.membership into doubt. It's not even clear if that is what
:18:30. > :18:33.the Prime Minister intends. Some Conservative MPs and MEPs
:18:34. > :18:36.are also lobbying the Prime Minister to repeal Sections 2 and 3
:18:37. > :18:41.of the 1972 European Communities Act That is the one that made us members
:18:42. > :18:48.of the common market. That would effectively render EU law
:18:49. > :18:50.unenforceable within the UK - and again be seen as
:18:51. > :18:54.a declaration of war on the EU. And the first step to getting out
:18:55. > :18:57.altogether. Let's have a look at the exchange
:18:58. > :19:03.between David Cameron and his old Etonian pal Boris
:19:04. > :19:05.in the House of Commons yesterday. Perhaps I ask could the Prime
:19:06. > :19:08.Minister how these changes as a result of this
:19:09. > :19:10.negotiation will restrict of legislation coming from Brussels,
:19:11. > :19:15.will change the treaty, so as to assert the sovereignty
:19:16. > :19:18.of this House of Commons and these In terms of asserting
:19:19. > :19:23.the sovereignty of this House, that is something we did in 2010,
:19:24. > :19:31.through the European Referendum Act, and it's something I'm
:19:32. > :19:34.keen to do even more on, to put beyond doubt that this House
:19:35. > :19:36.of Commons is sovereign and that is something
:19:37. > :19:39.that we will look to do at the same time as concluding
:19:40. > :19:41.these negotiations. In terms of what are we doing
:19:42. > :19:44.to restrict the flow of legislation from Brussels, for the first time
:19:45. > :19:48.ever in here is a commitment not only that Europe has to examine
:19:49. > :19:51.all of its competences every year to work out what should be
:19:52. > :19:55.returned to nation states, you have welfare powers
:19:56. > :19:58.and immigration powers that I have Bailout powers coming back,
:19:59. > :20:02.and the massive return of power we achieved in the last
:20:03. > :20:04.parliament, the justice The biggest return of power
:20:05. > :20:08.from Brussels to Britain We have absolutely nailed it down
:20:09. > :20:14.in these discussions to make sure I'm not saying this is perfect,
:20:15. > :20:27.I'm not saying the European Union will be perfect after this deal,
:20:28. > :20:30.it certainly won't, but will the British position be
:20:31. > :20:40.better and stronger? That was the Prime Minister replying
:20:41. > :20:46.to Boris Johnson. Joshua Rosenberg joins me from Belfast. We hope to
:20:47. > :20:50.talk to Craig McNally from the Houses of Parliament. When I studied
:20:51. > :20:56.political science we were taught that Parliament was always
:20:57. > :20:59.sovereign, particularly the Commons. The Queen in Parliament is always
:21:00. > :21:05.sovereign. Why does restating that make any difference? You are right,
:21:06. > :21:13.it won't. The Queen in Parliament, that is the House of Commons, the
:21:14. > :21:16.house of lords, and the Queen who has to give Royal assent, are
:21:17. > :21:25.sovereign and the courts accept that. It is Beverly true that in the
:21:26. > :21:30.1972 act the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the Queen agreed
:21:31. > :21:35.to cede sovereignty in part to Europe and Parliament could repeal
:21:36. > :21:40.parts of the legislation to retain sovereignty. -- it is perfectly
:21:41. > :21:44.true. There is no need to put the sovereignty of Parliament beyond
:21:45. > :21:48.doubt, it is sovereign. Parliament can do what it once but if it puts a
:21:49. > :21:54.limit on EU migrants coming to this country, which is in clear breach of
:21:55. > :21:58.EU law, either the EU law takes precedence even though Parliament is
:21:59. > :22:03.sovereign or the Parliament is heading for the exit, it is taking
:22:04. > :22:06.Britain out, one or the other. I would suggest you cannot break that
:22:07. > :22:13.kind of law and still be a member of the EU. Yes, it would breach the
:22:14. > :22:19.treaties that tie the UK to the EU law and it would pose a dilemma for
:22:20. > :22:22.Parliament which has been told that EU law trumps domestic law so it
:22:23. > :22:27.would have to be made clear what the courts were meant to do. That's a
:22:28. > :22:32.matter for Parliament, and you don't need to strengthen the UK's Supreme
:22:33. > :22:40.Court, you simply need to tell the court which law to apply. Craig
:22:41. > :22:45.McKinley is in the Commons, and they have just dotted debating this. What
:22:46. > :22:50.do you think about the emphasis on sovereignty? We have to be
:22:51. > :22:54.realistic, to get 55% of our European partners to actually blog a
:22:55. > :22:59.law that we don't find acceptable, I don't think that barrier could never
:23:00. > :23:02.be reached. His red card is something that will never be used.
:23:03. > :23:10.Of course Parliament is sovereign in that we can vote down completely the
:23:11. > :23:14.European communities act and subsequent treaties and I hope that
:23:15. > :23:20.is what we will do in the national referendum, so in that way it is
:23:21. > :23:23.sovereign. With the European court of justice and the body treaties
:23:24. > :23:29.over the years, we are not in control of our own house
:23:30. > :23:29.over the years, we are not in and it not acceptable to me. For
:23:30. > :23:29.you, does and it not acceptable to me. For
:23:30. > :23:37.of an explicit declaration of and it not acceptable to me. For
:23:38. > :23:42.Parliament, perhaps even at the thing up of the Supreme Court,
:23:43. > :23:46.Parliament, perhaps even at the have seen it mentioned too. Does it
:23:47. > :23:51.make any difference? It is better than the situation we have been in
:23:52. > :23:54.for many years. I pay tribute to the Prime Minister for offering this
:23:55. > :23:58.negotiation and having the referendum. What difference does the
:23:59. > :24:02.sovereignty offer make? It doesn't mean much at all which is why we are
:24:03. > :24:06.having this wide ranging debate. I am sure these matters will be aired
:24:07. > :24:11.and I am taking a robust stance and I hope many people will watch. We
:24:12. > :24:16.have changed in this parliament because it is looking as though it
:24:17. > :24:22.could become a museum. It looks like a museum behind you at the moment!
:24:23. > :24:27.As lovely as it is. The sovereignty of Parliament is abstract and I'm
:24:28. > :24:29.not of Parliament is abstract and I'm
:24:30. > :24:36.is until it's lost. I like of Parliament is abstract and I'm
:24:37. > :24:46.get rid of me but they can't get of Parliament is abstract and I'm
:24:47. > :24:49.gone in the process. The top of the German Constitutional Court, it
:24:50. > :24:53.looks at all of the laws that are passed by the German parliament and
:24:54. > :24:58.by the European system, the commission or Parliament as well. It
:24:59. > :25:03.decides whether the laws are compatible with the constitution,
:25:04. > :25:07.like the Supreme Court in the United States and our Supreme Court has a
:25:08. > :25:13.bit of that as well, I would suggest. Germany has a written
:25:14. > :25:16.constitution and we don't, and secondly, the German Constitutional
:25:17. > :25:22.Court has never ruled that an EU law was incompatible with the German
:25:23. > :25:29.constitution. What if it were to do so? You would have a clash between
:25:30. > :25:35.obligations in Germany as to the obligations of Germany and the
:25:36. > :25:39.court. You could give powers to the UK Supreme Court to declare laws
:25:40. > :25:43.unconstitutional, even without a codified constitution which some
:25:44. > :25:49.people think would be required. Then what would happen? You would have a
:25:50. > :25:54.clash between the UK, because the courts would have declared laws
:25:55. > :25:58.unconstitutional and the EU and it would have to be resolved with
:25:59. > :26:03.negotiations with Brussels. The courts have never asserted the
:26:04. > :26:07.power, even to overturn domestic legislation in the United Kingdom.
:26:08. > :26:13.Unlike in the United States and other countries. Sometimes, thinking
:26:14. > :26:16.of the Attorney General and the Prince of Wales's letters, they have
:26:17. > :26:20.made it hard for Parliament to achieve what it thought it was doing
:26:21. > :26:22.but they always access it sovereignty and until that changes
:26:23. > :26:29.and Parliament changes, that will remain the case. Is it not fair to
:26:30. > :26:34.say, that your concept of what you mean by Parliamentary sovereignty is
:26:35. > :26:39.incompatible with our membership of the European Union? I think it
:26:40. > :26:48.entirely is, there is no doubt. You do have both domestic judges but
:26:49. > :26:52.increasingly European judges reinterpreting what our sovereign
:26:53. > :26:55.parliament has decided. They have to be either overturned or our laws
:26:56. > :27:00.will be changed and it happens on a regular basis. It's not helpful and
:27:01. > :27:04.that's the reason for this debate today. I'm looking forward to it and
:27:05. > :27:08.it's part of the like that needs shining on the whole European
:27:09. > :27:12.referendum debate, because we are in great danger of it becoming one
:27:13. > :27:16.about trade and threats and the fear factor. This is getting to the heart
:27:17. > :27:20.of what Britain's relationship is with the European Union and I really
:27:21. > :27:24.do salute the backbench committee for allowing this debate and it's
:27:25. > :27:29.come at a good time. Do you fear that the Prime Minister is going
:27:30. > :27:32.down this road with his offer of emphasising the ultimate sovereignty
:27:33. > :27:37.of Parliament, because he wishes to deprive you of the one leader of the
:27:38. > :27:42.leave campaign which could make a difference, Boris Johnson. I don't
:27:43. > :27:48.know where Mr Johnson is at the moment on this, but as I say, this
:27:49. > :27:52.is a debate at the right time, we have heard lots of warm words about
:27:53. > :27:56.the renegotiation and I will come back to first principles, we were
:27:57. > :28:09.offered fundamental reform and I'm afraid that the terms of the Tusk
:28:10. > :28:12.letter, if that was the high water mark... Is this debate going to come
:28:13. > :28:17.down to how long migrants are going to be allowed to have benefits and
:28:18. > :28:21.at what rate? Whether they can remit back to their home countries. The
:28:22. > :28:25.debate should be rather wider than that. We will let you get on with
:28:26. > :28:32.the debate. Thank you for joining us. Margaret Beckett, just before we
:28:33. > :28:37.move on, the argument about sovereignty is a red herring, is it
:28:38. > :28:41.not? The one thing that is really significant about this conversation
:28:42. > :28:46.and this issue is that what it makes absolutely clear beyond question is
:28:47. > :28:50.that the most important negotiation, at the top of David Cameron's mind,
:28:51. > :28:54.is not his negotiations with the rest of the European Union but his
:28:55. > :28:59.own party and not for the first time he has come up with something off
:29:00. > :29:02.the cuff, not thought through. This is a big issue about whether the
:29:03. > :29:08.judiciary has authority over a sovereign Parliament. We seem to be
:29:09. > :29:15.walking into land. He is offering a souped up Supreme Court. It seems as
:29:16. > :29:20.though he is but not everyone has worked out what it means. Not for
:29:21. > :29:24.the first time, what does this do to his negotiations with the rest of
:29:25. > :29:27.Europe? If they get the idea into their heads that they thought they
:29:28. > :29:30.knew what he was asking for and all of a sudden he has come up with
:29:31. > :29:35.something else it will not help him to do the best for the country. He
:29:36. > :29:40.is keen to stop Boris Johnson from leading the tent. He is keen to stop
:29:41. > :29:52.Boris Johnson at all. Very well. We just had a Conservative
:29:53. > :29:53.Eurosceptics. We hear plenty from them. What about Labour
:29:54. > :29:55.Eurosceptics? Plenty within the Labour movement
:29:56. > :29:58.have long-harboured sceptical views about the EU, not least our guest
:29:59. > :30:01.of the day, Margaret Beckett, who, like Jeremy Corbyn,
:30:02. > :30:13.voted against the UK's continued The word common market was in
:30:14. > :30:16.brackets on the referendum ballot paper in 75.
:30:17. > :30:18.But now the Labour Party, under My Corbyn's leadership,
:30:19. > :30:22.says it will campaign to remain in the EU.
:30:23. > :30:24.Just how strongly, we don't yet know.
:30:25. > :30:25.So what happened to Labour's euroscepticism?
:30:26. > :30:31.We have been here before, and referendum about what Britain's
:30:32. > :30:41.In 1975 it was Labour who, after holding a special conference,
:30:42. > :30:43.decided their position should be to leave the European Economic
:30:44. > :30:47.The country decided the opposite in the referendum that was held
:30:48. > :30:54.Fast forward eight years and a gang of four had left to form the SDP.
:30:55. > :30:56.Labour pledged to bring Britain out of the EEC.
:30:57. > :31:00.A document that became known as the longest suicide
:31:01. > :31:09.Labour's rejection by voters led many who had been sceptical,
:31:10. > :31:11.Neil Kinnock in particular, to say the time has come to embrace
:31:12. > :31:27.To ensure potential gains it is necessary to work together.
:31:28. > :31:29.Your movement has a major role to play, Europe needs you.
:31:30. > :31:33.But the pivotal moment came in the autumn of 1988.
:31:34. > :31:34.The then president of the European Commission Jacques
:31:35. > :31:41.Delors made a speech to the Trade Unions Congress.
:31:42. > :31:43.He extolled the virtues of a social Europe, where workers rights
:31:44. > :31:49.and social benefits would be guaranteed on a Europe-wide basis.
:31:50. > :31:51.We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of
:31:52. > :31:55.Only to see them reimposed on a European level.
:31:56. > :31:58.Just a few weeks later Margaret Thatcher made
:31:59. > :32:08.Signalling more than a hint of euroscepticism.
:32:09. > :32:10.The first election that Labour won after its defeat in 1979
:32:11. > :32:20.Margaret Thatcher famously fought that.
:32:21. > :32:24.With the slogan, if you vote Labour you will live on a diet of Brussels.
:32:25. > :32:26.It was an explicitly Eurosceptic campaign on behalf
:32:27. > :32:27.of the Conservatives and they lost it.
:32:28. > :32:30.Labour's victory in that election validated a pro-European strategy.
:32:31. > :32:38.We must have the confidence as a political party to stand up
:32:39. > :32:43.Rethinking and reshaping its direction, of course,
:32:44. > :32:46.but being in no doubt at all that Britain's future does indeed lie
:32:47. > :32:50.The pro-European stance was solidified in the 1990s,
:32:51. > :32:54.but one Labour MP who, during Tony Blair's premiership,
:32:55. > :32:57.worked on the original EU constitution has become more
:32:58. > :33:19.She says Labour should reassess its position.
:33:20. > :33:21.Because of our internationalism, the issue of sovereignty is not
:33:22. > :33:26.There are also real scars, it was in the 80s the subject
:33:27. > :33:28.of Europe that led to a Labour Party splintering.
:33:29. > :33:30.We have remained in a comfort zone and kept saying,
:33:31. > :33:34.this is how we like the institution to be, and not being open enough
:33:35. > :33:49.We have had more results since we have come on the air.
:33:50. > :33:54.The last referendum was more than 40 years ago, but the likes
:33:55. > :33:57.of Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Hilary Benn were around
:33:58. > :34:00.They won't this time, and Labour's policy is clear,
:34:01. > :34:01.but at least some of their colleagues remain unconvinced.
:34:02. > :34:07.Margaret bect, you voted to come out in 1975. You are now broadly prove
:34:08. > :34:12.European. Was that a slow conversion, or did something happen
:34:13. > :34:17.to change your mind? -- pro-European? Two things. To an
:34:18. > :34:22.extent it was a slow conversion, in terms of accepting it willingly and
:34:23. > :34:27.happily. But the significant thing was that 1983 general election. If
:34:28. > :34:31.you recall - I'm sure you do, Andrew, although not all your
:34:32. > :34:36.listeners will - it was Enoch Powell during the election campaign who
:34:37. > :34:40.said, "We have now been in the European Community for ten years,
:34:41. > :34:44.increasingly our economy and society, everything is becoming more
:34:45. > :34:48.emmeshed, if we don't leave now, it is too late, it is over, we are then
:34:49. > :34:51.in there forever." That was very much the pitch on which the Labour
:34:52. > :34:56.Party, unsuccessfully fought the election. In '83 you fought with a
:34:57. > :35:00.manifesto to withdraw. The manifesto said it was incompatible with a
:35:01. > :35:05.radical, socialist agenda. Well, a will the has changed since then.
:35:06. > :35:08.Well, I don't know, you may have a leader who wants a radical,
:35:09. > :35:12.socialist agenda? What I mean is, among the things that have changed
:35:13. > :35:17.is when we were arguing we could come out and have a sustainable
:35:18. > :35:23.trading relationship, etc, we had trade links with the after
:35:24. > :35:27.countries. We still had links with the Commonwealth. All those
:35:28. > :35:32.countries, pretty much, nearly all, are in the European Union now. One
:35:33. > :35:35.of the things we said in our campaign - these six countries are
:35:36. > :35:39.not Europe. You are a bit pushed to say it is not Europe. It is so many.
:35:40. > :35:45.Speaking of Europe, we say it is not Europe. It is so many.
:35:46. > :35:48.part of it, Scotlands joins us, we have been
:35:49. > :35:53.part of it, Scotlands joins us, we questions. We are talking Europe
:35:54. > :35:59.with Margaret Becker, the former Labour Defence Secretary. Are we
:36:00. > :36:02.with Margaret Becker, the former be suspicious about how
:36:03. > :36:04.with Margaret Becker, the former that Mr Jeremy Corbyn and Mr
:36:05. > :36:07.McDonnell, the shadow that Mr Jeremy Corbyn and Mr
:36:08. > :36:11.aboutp Euro-scepticism? I don't think so. The hard left of the
:36:12. > :36:16.Labour Party has always been anti-EU at least and very eurosceptic at
:36:17. > :36:22.most. Well, I think once you start to really look at the issues, in a
:36:23. > :36:25.perhaps a way that not everybody on the hard left has done before, you
:36:26. > :36:27.begin to realise what a difference it would make and the fact that
:36:28. > :36:33.there were very strong rumour that it would make and the fact that
:36:34. > :36:37.unpin some of that social Europe that
:36:38. > :36:38.unpin some of that social Europe underpin it, it destroy it. Unpick
:36:39. > :36:43.It, that underpin it, it destroy it. Unpick
:36:44. > :36:47.to people in our party that, yes, this is actually, with
:36:48. > :36:49.to people in our party that, yes, there is, this
:36:50. > :36:53.to people in our party that, yes, be. And you would vote to stay in,
:36:54. > :36:59.even if Mr Cameron had achieved nothing? Many people don't think he
:37:00. > :37:00.has achieved a lot. But even if he had achieved nothing. Even
:37:01. > :37:05.said after the election - right let's have a referendum now on our
:37:06. > :37:06.existing terms of membership, you would vote to stay? I probably
:37:07. > :37:12.would. Shrimp - not because I'm a would vote to stay? I probably
:37:13. > :37:16.Europe fanatic, but because the alternatives are so undesirable. I
:37:17. > :37:21.don't think there is. There is so much dishonesty. All this talk about
:37:22. > :37:25.how we stop free movement of Labour. There is no country that trades with
:37:26. > :37:29.the European Union that doesn't have to abide by the free movement of
:37:30. > :37:31.Labour. Well there are a lot of countries with free trade
:37:32. > :37:34.arrangements with Europe and they don't have free movement of people
:37:35. > :37:35.arrangements with Europe and they Nothing of the significant players
:37:36. > :37:38.around like Norway Nothing of the significant players
:37:39. > :37:41.with whom we are always compared. Canada? Well, that's rather a
:37:42. > :37:45.with whom we are always compared. separate issue. It is a free trade
:37:46. > :37:48.arrangement They are not in our neck of the woods, so to speak. Also, it
:37:49. > :37:54.leaves out of consideration how, if we vote to come out, how the rest of
:37:55. > :37:59.Europe is going to feel to us? Are they going to feel warm and generous
:38:00. > :38:02.and - yes, OK let's give you a more preferential trading arrangement. I
:38:03. > :38:08.suspect not. Time will tell, depending on how we vote.
:38:09. > :38:10.Now last month Labour published Margaret's long-awaited report
:38:11. > :38:12.into why the party lost last year's General Election.
:38:13. > :38:15.But one Labour pollster who carried out research for the report wasn't
:38:16. > :38:20.Here's what Deborah Mattinson told the Sunday Politics last month.
:38:21. > :38:28.I would say that my conclusions were very different from Margaret
:38:29. > :38:31.Beckett's. I did brief Margaret Beckett so, I was somewhat
:38:32. > :38:38.disappointed not to see some of that reflected back. Yes, I think she
:38:39. > :38:42.picked up on the economy. But there was actually no analysis - it's
:38:43. > :38:46.reduced down effectively to one Bullet point in the report. Quite
:38:47. > :38:51.apologetic. Lots of defensive stuff in there but nothing that actually,
:38:52. > :38:55.really, I felt shone a light on what had gone wrong. I think it was a
:38:56. > :38:58.white wash. I think it was a massive, missed opportunity. So,
:38:59. > :39:03.Deborah Mattinson calls your report a white wash. What is your response?
:39:04. > :39:08.Well I'm sorry I have a lot of respect for Deborah who has done a
:39:09. > :39:12.lot of good work for the Labour Party in her time but I thought it
:39:13. > :39:15.was a rather silly thing to say, to be perfectly frank. By the way, the
:39:16. > :39:19.work she did was not commissioned for our task force, it was
:39:20. > :39:23.commissioned separately for Harriet Harman as something to inform her
:39:24. > :39:28.period of leadership. But, yes, we were briefed about it. What hasn't
:39:29. > :39:33.come out in these conversations is it was actually quite a restricted
:39:34. > :39:36.group of people. Deborah herself acknowledged that when she briefed
:39:37. > :39:41.us. It was a restricted tight group of people she bass talking to. The
:39:42. > :39:46.reason we were briefed about it shall she was talking to. The reason
:39:47. > :39:50.we were briefed was because I asked what information we could have that
:39:51. > :39:54.could come in from the general public, rather than from around the
:39:55. > :39:58.party or professional pollsters. What is there if anything that could
:39:59. > :40:03.tell us where the general public were coming from. All this was was
:40:04. > :40:07.this one, set of ideas, no, it was comments, really, but, from, as I
:40:08. > :40:12.say a Retallick stricted single group. Only -- a really restricted
:40:13. > :40:17.single group. Only because there was no money to do more. You didn't
:40:18. > :40:23.criticise the Labour leader, you called the manifesto an impressive
:40:24. > :40:26.document you blamed the Tories, the SNP, you blamed the media, naturally
:40:27. > :40:31.t didn't seem to be Labour's fault. When you see that, it does seem to
:40:32. > :40:34.be a white wash I don't think that's what the report did say. There are
:40:35. > :40:38.two groups of people who have responded to the report, one is a
:40:39. > :40:42.group that approached it with a relatively open mind and another is
:40:43. > :40:46.a group that approached it in their own various ways with axes ready to
:40:47. > :40:49.grind. I didn't ignore the fact of some of the things that the
:40:50. > :40:53.Conservatives had done, some of the ways they had played T I didn't
:40:54. > :40:57.ignore some of the other players, I touched on the issue of the media. I
:40:58. > :41:03.could have written a back about that, I didn't, I touched on T I did
:41:04. > :41:07.not excuse - I said, "We failed." Our job was to try to create trust
:41:08. > :41:10.in our economic policy, in our approach on immigration, in our
:41:11. > :41:16.approach on welfare and we failed. Did you speak to Ed Miliband for the
:41:17. > :41:22.report? Yes. Did you tone it down a bit as a result? You were very kind
:41:23. > :41:26.to him. I know a lot of people will disagree. You may be one of them.
:41:27. > :41:29.But what I said about Ed Miliband's leadership is what I believe and had
:41:30. > :41:34.believed all the way through. I didn't tone it down out of kindness.
:41:35. > :41:39.I thought Ed did a much better job than he was given credit for. If I
:41:40. > :41:44.can say to you, one of the things that I think people who are critical
:41:45. > :41:47.are overlooking, who the report was for and what it had to take into
:41:48. > :41:51.account. There is a sense in which we all know why we lost the
:41:52. > :41:55.election, everybody knows that, because of the issues we didn't get
:41:56. > :41:59.trust on but one of the things that certainly people in the Labour Party
:42:00. > :42:03.wanted to know is - but why did we do well in some parts of the country
:42:04. > :42:06.and not in others? What happened with the opinion polls? Why did they
:42:07. > :42:09.mislead us? People wanted the answers to those questions as well
:42:10. > :42:12.and that's what we tried to do. Well you cite reasons to be positive
:42:13. > :42:17.about Labour now, including Jeremy Corbyn, as one of the reasons to be
:42:18. > :42:21.positive. So, do you no longer regard yourself as a moron, your
:42:22. > :42:27.words, not mine, for nominating Mr Jeremy Corbyn? It wasn't my word it
:42:28. > :42:34.was John - I have forgotten his name, somebody who worked in number
:42:35. > :42:40.ten, he said it, I referred to it, in a radio interview, he said t and
:42:41. > :42:44.I said I'm one of them. I'm not resiling from that. Are you, or are
:42:45. > :42:49.you not? I didn't intend, Jeremy, to have a serious chance of being the
:42:50. > :42:54.leader when I nominated him. I have been quite open about that, there is
:42:55. > :42:57.no point in pretending. He has been elected overwhelmingly. My hope, if
:42:58. > :43:01.you like, prayer, is that you can do the same miracle with the public as
:43:02. > :43:07.he managed to do with members of the Labour Party. Do you think that will
:43:08. > :43:11.require a miracle? Neither you or eye could have predicted it. No, not
:43:12. > :43:16.at all. Not even Mr Jeremy Corbyn could have predicted it.
:43:17. > :43:18.Let's return to our main story - the EU referendum.
:43:19. > :43:25.We will be hearing a lot about it between now and when we think the
:43:26. > :43:27.referendum will be, the end of June, possibly.
:43:28. > :43:29.David Cameron admitted yesterday that the draft deal on the UK's
:43:30. > :43:30.membership of the EU is "not perfect".
:43:31. > :43:33.But he added that Britain's position would be stronger and better
:43:34. > :43:37.Not so, say his critics, who argue that Britain will be
:43:38. > :43:41.Among them is Conservative MP, David Davis, who has been giving
:43:42. > :43:46.The thin gruel has been further watered down,
:43:47. > :43:50.My right honourable friend has a fortnight, I think,
:43:51. > :43:56.in which to salvage his reputation as a negotiator.
:43:57. > :43:58.This is a process and he might not get what he wants.
:43:59. > :44:02.Now I understand he won't able to come to Manchester
:44:03. > :44:05.because he is still in the negotiations,
:44:06. > :44:09.but could he come on February 19th to our Go conference then,
:44:10. > :44:12.if he doesn't get what he wants and would it be possible for me
:44:13. > :44:17.to drop off at tie at Downing Street for him?
:44:18. > :44:21.My honourable friend is always very generous with his time,
:44:22. > :44:24.with his advice and now also with his clothing.
:44:25. > :44:30.I feel the blazer is soon to follow...
:44:31. > :44:33.I won't be able to come, I don't think on February 19th.
:44:34. > :44:37.I hope I will still be in the thick of negotiations but I of course
:44:38. > :44:43.will report back to this House and give the results.
:44:44. > :44:49.That was the Prime Minister. Let's speak it David Davis who joins us
:44:50. > :44:53.now. So summarise for us what would
:44:54. > :45:01.Britain's position be outside the EU? Well, it looks, I spent this
:45:02. > :45:04.morning giving a great - long lecture on the current benefits and
:45:05. > :45:09.what we could get outside. We would be better off in terms of global
:45:10. > :45:13.trade. We can do greater trade deals than the European Union does on our
:45:14. > :45:16.bha. We would not lose anything in temples our access to the European
:45:17. > :45:23.markets. Apart from anything else, the German car industry alone would
:45:24. > :45:33.have a $16 billion market put at risk and Merkel, politicians would
:45:34. > :45:35.not allow that. There is a very not easy but straightforward
:45:36. > :45:40.negotiation. You think we would get the advantages and pay no price for
:45:41. > :45:43.that access? The only area where it won't work is on agriculture where
:45:44. > :45:46.we would have to have some particular deal and subsidise
:45:47. > :45:50.British farming in a free market position. Other than that, it is
:45:51. > :45:54.pretty straight - it is pretty clear that the end game would be a free
:45:55. > :45:58.market arrangement. Just as they have just struck with Canada. They
:45:59. > :46:02.have just - Canada is a famously free market, world market. I used to
:46:03. > :46:06.work in Canada, you buy sugar in Canada, it is world market sugar,
:46:07. > :46:10.everything is world market. They have struck it with Canada. If they
:46:11. > :46:17.When you talk about the single anybody.
:46:18. > :46:19.When you talk about the single market you are talking about
:46:20. > :46:27.manufactured products and not services. 70% of our GDP is
:46:28. > :46:31.services. It does not follow that is Europe widens and deepens the single
:46:32. > :46:40.market that our services would get the same access as if we were
:46:41. > :46:44.inside. That is right if we ... There is not really a single market
:46:45. > :46:49.in services now. When the EU does free trade agreements with the rest
:46:50. > :46:56.of the world, 20 odd agreements, in only six of them were services
:46:57. > :47:01.mentioned. If we did our own they would the mentioned every time,
:47:02. > :47:07.banking will be left out completely because of the sensitivities in
:47:08. > :47:13.Europe. If we did a TTIP ourselves it would be in. There are balances
:47:14. > :47:16.and they look squarely in favour... So we would not have too continue
:47:17. > :47:28.with the free movement of people in the single market? We are talking
:47:29. > :47:31.after a Brexit referendum. Several million votes will be about
:47:32. > :47:35.migration so no government could offer anything on free movement,
:47:36. > :47:40.they would need absolute governmental control of borders. The
:47:41. > :47:43.Europeans understand that and at the end of the day European
:47:44. > :47:47.negotiations, I have been there and done it, are about national
:47:48. > :47:53.interest. No national government, Angela Merkel, they are not going to
:47:54. > :47:58.give up the interests of their major industries to promote the European
:47:59. > :48:03.ideal. That may be logical. It's also political. What about the point
:48:04. > :48:07.Margaret Beckett was making earlier? Europe could be so angry as a result
:48:08. > :48:12.of us leaving that they may not be inclined to be as generous with the
:48:13. > :48:24.single market as you think. There could be an element of Britain
:48:25. > :48:26.leaving and not suffering, getting the benefits without having to sit
:48:27. > :48:29.in the European the benefits without having to sit
:48:30. > :48:33.the European Council, others may follow. So they will be tougher on
:48:34. > :48:36.us. That bit is certainly follow. So they will be tougher on
:48:37. > :48:37.judging from history follow. So they will be tougher on
:48:38. > :48:41.happens is that if we have there will be three months of
:48:42. > :48:47.screaming and shouting and there will be three months of
:48:48. > :48:51.and then they calmed down. The day after Brexit happens the Chief
:48:52. > :49:02.Executive 's dogs barking, BMW, Audi and Mercedes -- of Volkswagen. They
:49:03. > :49:08.would be queueing up saying that we have do have access for the 16
:49:09. > :49:13.billion market. What do you say to that? It is pie in the sky, frankly.
:49:14. > :49:18.I know David was the Europe minister at one time but I have had a bit of
:49:19. > :49:24.experience myself over something like ten or 11 years of intense
:49:25. > :49:32.negotiation on agriculture and climate change. I just think, if I
:49:33. > :49:40.can say so with some modesty I pride myself on my negotiation track
:49:41. > :49:46.record. The risks are huge and the certainties are non-. What's
:49:47. > :49:52.interesting in the last decade, people always say this will give us
:49:53. > :49:57.huge leveraged. If you look at the way we are treated, we lose twice as
:49:58. > :50:01.many votes as anyone in Europe. Just now, David Cameron has asked for a
:50:02. > :50:06.really trivial set of demands and haven't even been given them. If you
:50:07. > :50:09.look at something really important like the free trade agreements that
:50:10. > :50:14.Europe strikes with other countries and areas of the world, we lose out
:50:15. > :50:20.in two thirds of them and that is how much influence we have in Europe
:50:21. > :50:23.now. We do better. If you want to go down this road you need someone
:50:24. > :50:28.strong to sell the message and it looks as though it won't be Theresa
:50:29. > :50:37.May leading believing campaign? That is up to Teresa. I have no idea.
:50:38. > :50:41.Boris Johnson? You would need to get Boris to answer that question. But
:50:42. > :50:46.you speak to these people all the time. To be honest I don't think it
:50:47. > :50:50.matters that much, beyond the M25 what matters is this, what will this
:50:51. > :50:59.do for the 3 million jobs that get thrown around, my job, my welfare,
:51:00. > :51:09.my interest, and they will make that decision not on whether a blonde
:51:10. > :51:13.bombshell makes it. It's not for me. I tried. You did.
:51:14. > :51:16.Now we know that tossers are commonplace in politics,
:51:17. > :51:18.but did you know that tossing is, in fact, a vital part
:51:19. > :51:23.Yes, in Iowa earlier this week, some of the Democratic caucuses
:51:24. > :51:28.literally came down to the toss of a coin.
:51:29. > :51:31.But coin tosses have been used plenty of times in democratic
:51:32. > :51:32.elections, as have other random selection methods.
:51:33. > :51:44.In sport it is used at the start of a match and in politics it is used
:51:45. > :51:47.to end one. Coin tosses are a rare sight and only used in the event of
:51:48. > :51:54.a tie and when there are rounding errors. Monday's Iowa Democratic
:51:55. > :51:58.caucus was one of the history books as Hillary Clinton tied with her
:51:59. > :52:03.rival Bernie Sanders in six precincts so it was down to look to
:52:04. > :52:10.decide and Clinton won them all, one 64 chance. It's not the only time
:52:11. > :52:14.that the random factor has been harnessed for democracy, the mayor
:52:15. > :52:22.of a town in Peru was decided when the top two candidates tied at 236
:52:23. > :52:25.votes each, not a huge turnout. It's not always coin tossing, cutting
:52:26. > :52:32.cards and drawing lots. The legal position is that the winning coin
:52:33. > :52:38.toss is considered a vote. As it was with the Bari council elections in
:52:39. > :52:45.2011. After three and recounts it was a dead heat in Ramsbottom. They
:52:46. > :52:49.are obliged to produce a result and they were clutching at straws. It
:52:50. > :52:54.has never happened yet at a UK general election but if it does one
:52:55. > :52:55.imagines that the loss of a toss might make the defeated candidate
:52:56. > :52:59.flipping annoyed. Well joining me now from Norwich
:53:00. > :53:02.is Lana Hempsell, a Conservative councillor who actually won
:53:03. > :53:05.an election on the toss of a coin, and Rene Linstaedt, an expert
:53:06. > :53:13.on American politics Welcome. In Iowa it was necessary in
:53:14. > :53:16.some of the caucuses to flip a coin because it was a dead heat for
:53:17. > :53:22.Sanders and Clinton? Part of the problem was that in some of these
:53:23. > :53:27.caucus sites, individuals that had registered had actually left prior
:53:28. > :53:32.to being counted, and the overall number of registered caucusgoers was
:53:33. > :53:38.higher than individuals left, so not all of the delegates could be
:53:39. > :53:43.assigned to the candidates. Do we know how many ended up tossing a
:53:44. > :53:51.coin? I don't know exactly what the number is, but it happened a number
:53:52. > :53:54.of times. It's not surprising because there are such a small
:53:55. > :53:59.number of individuals involved that you would either have a situation
:54:00. > :54:03.where there is a tie or because it is so unorganised, the whole
:54:04. > :54:11.process, people would just leave. Did they have a recount? Well, yes.
:54:12. > :54:17.That is what we would do. They counted the number of individuals,
:54:18. > :54:23.and some in one of the district 's people had gone so there was nothing
:54:24. > :54:29.they could do. You won your council seat on the toss of a coin, how many
:54:30. > :54:33.recounts were there before it was decided to resolve it? We had three
:54:34. > :54:39.recounts in total so it was close on the first one and then we get three
:54:40. > :54:46.more and it was a dead heat. I see. A coin was tossed. Did you choose
:54:47. > :54:52.heads or tails? I chose heads and it was a split-second decision because
:54:53. > :54:59.the coin was already flying before I was asking if anyone got to choose
:55:00. > :55:05.and as it was landing I shouted out heads because my agent nudged me. Do
:55:06. > :55:10.you still have the coin, it must be your lucky coin? No, this was
:55:11. > :55:17.Broadlands, the coin went back into the pocket of the returning officer.
:55:18. > :55:22.He spent it on a diet Coke later on. How did your opponent feel? Did they
:55:23. > :55:29.feel cheated? Did they think in the end it was a fair way of resolving
:55:30. > :55:33.the matter? He wasn't there at the count so I have no idea why he
:55:34. > :55:38.didn't turn up, but I was there to bask in the glory all by myself. I
:55:39. > :55:42.did see him later and he did not think it was fair. And there were
:55:43. > :55:49.questions about double sided coins etc. You could have said heads I
:55:50. > :55:56.win, tails you lose and he would not object as he was not there! The New
:55:57. > :56:00.Hampshire primary, not a caucus, if it is closed their there will be
:56:01. > :56:07.recounts an recounts rather than tossing a coin. -- if it is close
:56:08. > :56:13.there. Sometimes delegates are proportionally split so you do not
:56:14. > :56:19.need to toss a coin? 49.6 versus 49.4. That is true. It can happen in
:56:20. > :56:22.smaller states where you have ties and it certainly happens all the
:56:23. > :56:31.time in smaller elections for City councils. Because you were asking
:56:32. > :56:34.earlier about elections, Federal elections in the US or national
:56:35. > :56:43.elections here, it actually hasn't happened. Who will win New Hampshire
:56:44. > :56:48.for the Democrats? It will be close. I know that. I'm not in the business
:56:49. > :56:50.of making predictions. CHUCKLES Thank you both.
:56:51. > :56:53.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:56:54. > :56:55.The question was what narrowly missed hitting Margaret
:56:56. > :57:05.report into why Labour lost the election?
:57:06. > :57:08.Maybe Deborah Mattinson through it! I'm just joking.
:57:09. > :57:14.So Margaret, what's the correct answer?
:57:15. > :57:20.It was a mobile phone dropped from the press gallery. By accident?
:57:21. > :57:22.Presumably. And we're joined now
:57:23. > :57:24.by the fellow who nearly The political editor of the Sun,
:57:25. > :57:36.Tom Newton Dunn is on the phone now. Can we just clear this up, it was
:57:37. > :57:41.entirely an accident? I can confirm it was not an assassination attempt.
:57:42. > :57:45.It was entirely an accident. Margaret, let me say that I'm
:57:46. > :57:49.incredibly sorry and I was utterly mortified that I almost hit you on
:57:50. > :57:55.the head. Thank you very much for taking it in the right way. To be
:57:56. > :58:01.fair it was a bipartisan attack because Cheryl Gillan was next to
:58:02. > :58:04.me. It could have gone either way. We agreed that former Cabinet
:58:05. > :58:13.ministers who are women are not popular! Did the phones survive? It
:58:14. > :58:21.fell 20 feet and it did. I won't say what type of phone it is on the BBC
:58:22. > :58:29.but it is still intact. Cheryl Gillan tweeted me to say that if I
:58:30. > :58:33.had been four inches to the left I would have killed two birds with one
:58:34. > :58:37.stone. I think we will say goodbye there. Thank you very much. Thank
:58:38. > :58:49.you to my guests especially Margaret Beckett. I will be back at 11:45pm
:58:50. > :58:52.on BBC One for this week when we will have Michael Portillo and Alan
:58:53. > :58:58.Johnson and we may talk about Europe, who knows? I will be back
:58:59. > :58:59.also here tomorrow on BBC Two with the Daily Politics