0:00:34 > 0:00:36Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39The latest walk-out by junior doctors in England is over,
0:00:40 > 0:00:41but the row with ministers could be about to intensify.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Doctors' leaders have rejected a final "take it or leave it" offer
0:00:45 > 0:00:51in their bitter dispute over contracts.
0:00:52 > 0:00:53In the next hour, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is expected
0:00:54 > 0:00:55to announce he'll take the nuclear option
0:00:56 > 0:00:57and impose the new contract anyway.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02joins us to explain why leaving the EU would be bad for Britain
0:01:03 > 0:01:04and could be a boost for Russia's Putin.
0:01:05 > 0:01:11As a new report says more than a tenth of Syria's population
0:01:12 > 0:01:14has been killed or injured, with many more displaced,
0:01:15 > 0:01:16are the world powers hopelessly divided over what to do next?
0:01:17 > 0:01:18And forget the latest Hollywood blockbuster.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20We'll be talking to the documentary maker who wants
0:01:21 > 0:01:28to bring the case for leaving the EU to the big screen.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Yes, all that in the next hour of blockbuster political discussion.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36And with us throughout, journalist David Aaronovitch.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39He keeps busy writing and broadcasting about everything
0:01:40 > 0:01:41from conspiracy theories to subliminal messaging.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46In fact, he's giving out a subliminal message right now,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50that you should watch to the end of the show.
0:01:51 > 0:02:08Do you like the new tie sense to me by the Fife police pipe band?
0:02:09 > 0:02:12And not many people can claim that! Or say it! Thank you for sending it!
0:02:13 > 0:02:14First today, beleagured, under fire, you can choose your cliche,
0:02:15 > 0:02:17but they're being applied to the Met Police chief,
0:02:18 > 0:02:19Bernard Hogan-Howe, after criticism of the force's handling
0:02:20 > 0:02:23of sexual-abuse allegations against public figures,
0:02:24 > 0:02:25including former Home Secretary Leon Brittan
0:02:26 > 0:02:27and former D-Day veteran Lord Bramall.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Both men were investigated but never charged.
0:02:31 > 0:02:32Hogan-Howe said the default position of believing the accuser,
0:02:33 > 0:02:37a policy adopted in 2014, should be changed.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40From now on, police will now test the accuracy
0:02:41 > 0:02:42of the allegations and evidence with an open mind.
0:02:43 > 0:02:53I think we've really got hung up on this word, "belief".
0:02:54 > 0:02:57It's confused officers, and my point would be that of course
0:02:58 > 0:02:59we've got to be empathetic, we want people to believe
0:03:00 > 0:03:03We want to be open-minded what they tell us, and then
0:03:04 > 0:03:06what the suspects tell us, and then we've got to test all that
0:03:07 > 0:03:09evidence, and I think there's a grave danger at the moment
0:03:10 > 0:03:12that the advice that's around, perhaps there's a tendency to think
0:03:13 > 0:03:14we will always believe any complaint made, and that's not wise
0:03:15 > 0:03:20That was Bernard Hogan-Howe, and this morning we learned
0:03:21 > 0:03:22that the Home Secretary has extended his contract
0:03:23 > 0:03:26as head of the Met by one year, it expires in September,
0:03:27 > 0:03:38and not the two years Hogan-Howe has asked for in public.
0:03:39 > 0:03:44These in a tight spot, isn't he? He is in a tight spot, but actually he
0:03:45 > 0:03:49is just cannot one element in what has become, if you like, a kind of
0:03:50 > 0:03:56problem that we have, which is that we ignored the problem of child
0:03:57 > 0:04:00abuse for long time, then when we get wise to it and so on, we
0:04:01 > 0:04:03overreact the other way, and we demand that the police will take
0:04:04 > 0:04:08seriously every single possible and conceivable complaint that is made,
0:04:09 > 0:04:10which means that they are failing sometimes to distinguish between
0:04:11 > 0:04:15true complaints by people who have taken a long time to come forward,
0:04:16 > 0:04:18and fantasists. What has happened is that the Met, in the case of
0:04:19 > 0:04:26operation Midland, have been taken in by a series of fantasists. There
0:04:27 > 0:04:29is one where we cannot give his proper name, he goes by the name of
0:04:30 > 0:04:32Nick, he seems to be behind many of the high-profile claims of a VIP
0:04:33 > 0:04:37reader file ring based in Westminster. This is why Operation
0:04:38 > 0:04:42Midland was launched. No one has been charged under this and when you
0:04:43 > 0:04:46speak to the police privately, they are increasingly worried that they
0:04:47 > 0:04:48have been led by the nose by a fantasist.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52They cannot even find the evidence of any of the three murders that
0:04:53 > 0:04:58this chap claims, they cannot find the evidence for it. They have
0:04:59 > 0:05:01leaked out, at various times to various journalists and
0:05:02 > 0:05:05organisations, what they are doing and so on, they have been in good
0:05:06 > 0:05:07with one or two organisations, effectively making money out of
0:05:08 > 0:05:12running these claims and selling them to the press. They have acted
0:05:13 > 0:05:16as a kind of ginger group on the police to make them take them
0:05:17 > 0:05:21seriously, so that they are actively generate news stories about VIP
0:05:22 > 0:05:26abuse. Parts of the press have been effectively complicit in this, I
0:05:27 > 0:05:29regret to say, and the consequences going to be very damaging long-term
0:05:30 > 0:05:32for those people who are genuine survivors of abuse, who will be
0:05:33 > 0:05:36making claims now. Utterly predictable. Good to have you with
0:05:37 > 0:05:38the us today. Liam Fox and the Brexiteers, that's
0:05:39 > 0:05:46those who want a British exit, or Brexit from the EU,
0:05:47 > 0:05:48have coined a name for their rivals who want Britain to vote
0:05:49 > 0:05:52to remain a member. The question for today is
0:05:53 > 0:05:55what is the name? Is it stayvians, persistonians,
0:05:56 > 0:06:07non-leavians or remainians? At the end of the show, David
0:06:08 > 0:06:17will give us the correct answer. And we are hanging on it, cannot
0:06:18 > 0:06:21wait! In the 1975 referendum on Britain's
0:06:22 > 0:06:25membership of the Common Market, Hilary Benn was, like most
0:06:26 > 0:06:28on the left, opposed to staying in. He even worked as a researcher
0:06:29 > 0:06:31for the no campaign. Well, today he's Shadow Foreign
0:06:32 > 0:06:33Secretary and with a referendum on our membership of
0:06:34 > 0:06:36the European Union on the way, he's been making a different case
0:06:37 > 0:06:39for Britain to stay in. Those who are campaigning
0:06:40 > 0:06:46for Britain to leave, in my view, profoundly misunderstand
0:06:47 > 0:06:50what will best serve There is nothing patriotic about
0:06:51 > 0:06:58diminishing the United Kingdom's ability to make its voice
0:06:59 > 0:07:03heard by other nations. Narrow nationalism
0:07:04 > 0:07:06is not the same as patriotism, and stumbling out of Europe
0:07:07 > 0:07:10and pulling up the drawbridge will only serve to harm our position
0:07:11 > 0:07:17and influence in the world. You made a powerful case for Britain
0:07:18 > 0:07:31remaining in Europe, and the You made a powerful case for Britain
0:07:32 > 0:07:34backed that position, but is the Labour leader as passionate and
0:07:35 > 0:07:40advocate to remain in the EU as you are? Well, Jeremy has made it clear
0:07:41 > 0:07:43that he backs Britain remaining in the European Union, and this has
0:07:44 > 0:07:47been the settled view of the Labour Party and the trade union movement
0:07:48 > 0:07:54for a number of years now. Today I referred to the famous occasion when
0:07:55 > 0:07:59Jack Delors came to the TUC in 1988, and he said, can I lay before you a
0:08:00 > 0:08:06vision of Europe, paid holiday, protection for temporary workers,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11and fairness in working time, that is a result of our membership of the
0:08:12 > 0:08:17European Union. Labour has been on a journey, and for those of us who
0:08:18 > 0:08:19remember what it is like, it is the same in their image, the
0:08:20 > 0:08:24Conservative Party is divided, David Cameron has decided to draw on
0:08:25 > 0:08:29Wilson's approach, because he cannot manage the politics of his own party
0:08:30 > 0:08:38- we are united. You say that Jeremy Corbyn backs remaining in the EU,
0:08:39 > 0:08:41but I asked, is he as passionate? He hailed the Labour manifesto which
0:08:42 > 0:08:48called for Britain to leave the EEC, and last week he was railing against
0:08:49 > 0:08:52the transatlantic trade deal which is being pushed through by European
0:08:53 > 0:09:01institutions. He does not sound passionate about it. I have
0:09:02 > 0:09:09discussed with him, and he believes it is the right thing to do, to stay
0:09:10 > 0:09:13in, on TTIP, he believes there are still things to sort out. We have to
0:09:14 > 0:09:18make sure it is the right kind of trade deal, but I am clear that
0:09:19 > 0:09:22trade deals, because they open minds as well as markets, are good for the
0:09:23 > 0:09:25world, and we currently have really good trade deals because we are part
0:09:26 > 0:09:31of the European Union, and those campaigning for Brexit cannot
0:09:32 > 0:09:34actually tell us whether we would be able to replicate those on the same
0:09:35 > 0:09:39basis if we were to leave, and I think it would be a great step into
0:09:40 > 0:09:44the unknown, so does Jeremy, and that is why he is backing us staying
0:09:45 > 0:09:48in. Instinctively, there are supporters of Jeremy Corbyn armour
0:09:49 > 0:09:52and I will put it no stronger than that, say instinct of Lee Healey is
0:09:53 > 0:09:56an out there, he has said that he wants to see a Europe that does not
0:09:57 > 0:10:08sign away public services through the TTIP deal. -- instinctively. He
0:10:09 > 0:10:10says it is being agreed by European institution that was not
0:10:11 > 0:10:20democratically elected. Is he going to join you and a gold your words on
0:10:21 > 0:10:28platforms in the future? -- and echo your words. I am sure you will
0:10:29 > 0:10:32invite him on. That is not the same thing, will he be standing on the
0:10:33 > 0:10:36same platform as you? The European family has given us great benefits
0:10:37 > 0:10:40in terms of jobs, investment and growth, it strengthens our boys in
0:10:41 > 0:10:43the world, that is the point I was making, but on the specifics of
0:10:44 > 0:10:48TTIP, people will have different views, and in the end the European
0:10:49 > 0:10:51Parliament, if it turns out to be a mixed competence agreement, the
0:10:52 > 0:10:56European Parliament will have to agree the final deal in some way,
0:10:57 > 0:11:01but that is not an argument for us not remaining, because so much
0:11:02 > 0:11:04depends on our continued membership. That sounds like a conversation you
0:11:05 > 0:11:10need to have with Jeremy Corbyn. Are there any dates for him to stand
0:11:11 > 0:11:14with you in the campaign? You will have to look at his diary, I do not
0:11:15 > 0:11:18know what his future diary looks like, but he is absolutely clear,
0:11:19 > 0:11:23and he has said it in the speech to the Fabians recently, he is clear,
0:11:24 > 0:11:28as are all of us, why it is in the interests of the British people,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31that is the point, that we remain. You say the trade union movement is
0:11:32 > 0:11:38supportive of your stance, but actually they also have not exactly
0:11:39 > 0:11:44been coming forward with their support - what is Unison going to
0:11:45 > 0:11:47do? Well, ultimately, that is a decision for them to take. But you
0:11:48 > 0:11:54said you had the support of the unions, and I put it to you that
0:11:55 > 0:11:57unions like Unison, the second-biggest, and clear with its
0:11:58 > 0:12:02connections to Labour, has not made up its mind. That is why I have said
0:12:03 > 0:12:05they will make their views known, but the point I was making today,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10the attitude of the trade union movement has changed. I worked for
0:12:11 > 0:12:1322 years for a trade union, I saw how our members found they were
0:12:14 > 0:12:17working in companies that were owned by other firms in Europe and other
0:12:18 > 0:12:20parts of the world, and that meant they had to build relationships with
0:12:21 > 0:12:27their colleagues. They saw what it is that it did to trade union
0:12:28 > 0:12:32rights, and if you go and talk to workers to Nestle all Toyota, if you
0:12:33 > 0:12:36talk to the workers at Airbus, people in universities, all of them
0:12:37 > 0:12:40will tell you why being part of the European Union is important for
0:12:41 > 0:12:46their jobs and for the future of the British economy, and I am confident
0:12:47 > 0:12:50that, as the referendum unfolds, we will see that voice expressed. One
0:12:51 > 0:12:54of the legitimate concerns they had was, was David Cameron going to use
0:12:55 > 0:12:59the negotiation to undermine workers rights? We saw him off as a result
0:13:00 > 0:13:04of the stance we dug. David, are the unions fully signed up to this?
0:13:05 > 0:13:08Unison said that they have not decided, there is a mixed view. How
0:13:09 > 0:13:13disappointing would it be for Hilary Benn and those who want to remain in
0:13:14 > 0:13:16the EU if big unions either say, we are not going to have a view, oh go
0:13:17 > 0:13:23further and say, we should have Brexit? I think it is likely the
0:13:24 > 0:13:27unions will sign up on remaining in the EU, for a number of reasons that
0:13:28 > 0:13:30Hilary Benn has touched on, but they have to go through the process of
0:13:31 > 0:13:34suggesting that they have had some discussion about it, rather than it
0:13:35 > 0:13:39is a done deal. As for Jeremy Corbyn, the problem with him is,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43because he has not changed since 1975, when all of us voted against
0:13:44 > 0:13:49the Common Market, because he has not been on that journey... I voted
0:13:50 > 0:13:52against it in 1975, it was a capitalist club aimed at the heart
0:13:53 > 0:13:58of the Soviet Union, so it was a bad idea! Things have moved on, I
0:13:59 > 0:14:07certainly have since then. Hilary is smiling! Jeremy Corbyn has probably
0:14:08 > 0:14:11not thought much about the European Union for 30 years, it is not one of
0:14:12 > 0:14:15the things that I think he is very interested in or has been interested
0:14:16 > 0:14:21in, so it is not at all unlikely that he will allow themselves to be
0:14:22 > 0:14:27instructed on this. Can we do a very sharp gear into Syria? There was a
0:14:28 > 0:14:31line in your speech about the Russians killing Syrian civilians,
0:14:32 > 0:14:37you said it has to stop, how are you going to stop it? Well, by getting a
0:14:38 > 0:14:40ceasefire. Now, the Russians have made a proposal, and a ceasefire
0:14:41 > 0:14:45cannot come quickly enough, but you have seen the growing chorus of
0:14:46 > 0:14:48condemnation of the Russian bombing. And the Russian ambassador
0:14:49 > 0:14:53dismissing it. Human Rights Watch have said that cluster munitions
0:14:54 > 0:14:56have been used by the Russians, and their denials would have more force
0:14:57 > 0:15:00if they had signed up to the convention banning the use of
0:15:01 > 0:15:05cluster munitions. But look, the Syrian people have suffered enough,
0:15:06 > 0:15:08more than 250,000 have lost their lives, the conflict has to be
0:15:09 > 0:15:11brought to an end because it is the only way we will bring peace. Why
0:15:12 > 0:15:19would the Russians stop, though? In the end there will have to be a
0:15:20 > 0:15:24peace agreement. Our responsibility is to put pressure on the Russians
0:15:25 > 0:15:29to do the right thing and stop the fire that they appear to have chosen
0:15:30 > 0:15:34a day for the cease-fire to come into force. If you come into force
0:15:35 > 0:15:40now and then the aid and go into towns that are under siege, the
0:15:41 > 0:15:43killings can end, and negotiations can begin about what a new Syria
0:15:44 > 0:15:48will look like. Air strikes against Islamic State in Syria, they have a
0:15:49 > 0:15:54foothold, if it looks like they were getting to the stage where they are
0:15:55 > 0:15:58launching attacks on Europe, should you be raising the idea of air
0:15:59 > 0:16:01strikes against IS in Libya? The first that needs to happen in Libya
0:16:02 > 0:16:04is a government needs to be formed because there isn't one at the
0:16:05 > 0:16:08moment. There has been an agreement but it has not stuck to stop the
0:16:09 > 0:16:17British government has said, there is no question of boots on the
0:16:18 > 0:16:21ground. IS represent a threat in Libya as they do across the Middle
0:16:22 > 0:16:25East, but the first step is the formation of a government and then
0:16:26 > 0:16:28the international government can see the assistance that has been asked
0:16:29 > 0:16:32for. Thank you. Now, let's turn to events
0:16:33 > 0:16:35in the Middle East, and Syria in particular,
0:16:36 > 0:16:37where the five-year-old conflict According to a report
0:16:38 > 0:16:43from the Syrian Centre for Policy Research published today,
0:16:44 > 0:16:45the war has accounted In all, 11.5% of the population
0:16:46 > 0:16:48have been killed or injured, while millions have fled the country
0:16:49 > 0:16:51or been internally displaced. Well, UN peace talks have stalled,
0:16:52 > 0:16:53thanks at least in part to a Syrian government advance aided
0:16:54 > 0:16:56by Russian Air strikes Let's get some more
0:16:57 > 0:17:12detail from JoCo. Recent Russian airstrikes in support
0:17:13 > 0:17:14of President Assad's government have seen thousands of people
0:17:15 > 0:17:17fleeing the city of Aleppo Last week, the UN suspended
0:17:18 > 0:17:26peace talks in Geneva, with the opposition saying
0:17:27 > 0:17:28they wouldn't talk to the government while the heavy
0:17:29 > 0:17:31bombardment continued. Meanwhile, some 30,000 Syrians have
0:17:32 > 0:17:33fled north to the Turkish border, prompting fears of another
0:17:34 > 0:17:40major exodus towards Europe. Turkey says it has so far
0:17:41 > 0:17:43let in 10,000 refugees, and that others will be admitted
0:17:44 > 0:17:46"in a controlled fashion". RAF planes continue to bomb
0:17:47 > 0:17:48Islamic State positions Later this afternoon,
0:17:49 > 0:17:57a counter-Islamic State coalition, led by the US, is expected
0:17:58 > 0:18:00to announce an increase in the tempo of bombing raids
0:18:01 > 0:18:02in Iraq and Syria. They are also likely to discuss
0:18:03 > 0:18:05the threat posed by IS in Libya, as the UN says the war-torn country
0:18:06 > 0:18:12has become a new base for the group. Well, defence ministers
0:18:13 > 0:18:16from the Nato alliance have been They've been talking
0:18:17 > 0:18:19about the threat from Russia and the migrant crisis
0:18:20 > 0:18:21among other things. And later today they'll be joined
0:18:22 > 0:18:23by non-Nato partners from the countries fighting
0:18:24 > 0:18:25against Islamic State to discuss a US plan to accelerate
0:18:26 > 0:18:27the campaign. Our defence correspondent
0:18:28 > 0:18:49Jonathan Beale is in Brussels, Jonathan, we understand there is a
0:18:50 > 0:18:58Nato Maritime deployment to go to the Aegean Sea, what does that mean
0:18:59 > 0:19:03and what is it that this? -- is its purpose? Turkey and Greece are
0:19:04 > 0:19:08members of Nato, they have this crisis on their border where people
0:19:09 > 0:19:12want to cross into Europe, they have asked Nato to do something about it
0:19:13 > 0:19:15and this is what they came up with. They have a Maritime group in the
0:19:16 > 0:19:21Mediterranean, they will send it to the Aegean, but there were only
0:19:22 > 0:19:25three ships in the group. The head of Nato says there may be more ships
0:19:26 > 0:19:30joining them, but they are essentially there to gather
0:19:31 > 0:19:35intelligence, to find out who the people smugglers are, where the
0:19:36 > 0:19:40coastguard from Turkey and Greece should go to. To be honest, this is
0:19:41 > 0:19:43a sticking plaster to a problem that won't go away. What will they do
0:19:44 > 0:19:50with the intelligence as they gather it? We're not going to intercept
0:19:51 > 0:19:53boats coming across, or launch raids on the people smugglers, they are
0:19:54 > 0:19:59going to gather intelligence, what will they do with it? One assumes
0:20:00 > 0:20:04they will gather information. For example, they will have
0:20:05 > 0:20:08sophisticated radar where they can spot where boats are leaving from
0:20:09 > 0:20:13and then tell the Greek or Turkish coastguard where they are going. In
0:20:14 > 0:20:16simple terms, the Turkish authorities are probably the best
0:20:17 > 0:20:20people to work out who the people smugglers are, and to arrest them
0:20:21 > 0:20:25and detain them. Remember there was talk about doing this in Libya. At
0:20:26 > 0:20:29least Turkey has a functioning government, Libya does not. There
0:20:30 > 0:20:32has been no targeting of people smugglers in Libya and that is
0:20:33 > 0:20:39because there is no functioning government, there is chaos. The
0:20:40 > 0:20:44anti-Islamic state coalition which is meeting this afternoon where you
0:20:45 > 0:20:58are, what is that going to decide? What is on the agenda? Is there talk
0:20:59 > 0:21:01of extending attacks on IS? The focus will mostly be on what is
0:21:02 > 0:21:08going on in Iraq and Syria before they turn attention to what is going
0:21:09 > 0:21:11on in Libya, but is a coalition which is meant to be more than 40
0:21:12 > 0:21:17nations, and is to be honest, about a dozen are doing something
0:21:18 > 0:21:24militarily. For example, carrying out air strikes. What the US Defence
0:21:25 > 0:21:30Secretary once is particularly regional allies to do more. We have
0:21:31 > 0:21:32the Prince from Saudi Arabia and the expectation is that he will offer
0:21:33 > 0:21:36forces to do something, we don't know how many. Clearly the Saudis
0:21:37 > 0:21:41will want to do something with the US. The US are not going to put
0:21:42 > 0:21:44boots on the ground in Syria in significant numbers but they have
0:21:45 > 0:21:50special forces. There is the possibility of them doing some ring
0:21:51 > 0:21:52but this is still a strategy of containment, not a strategy of
0:21:53 > 0:21:57victory because they need to build up security forces in Iraq first and
0:21:58 > 0:22:02then turn attention to Syria. If you look at what happens in Iraq, there
0:22:03 > 0:22:06is still a lot of bombing raids being done by the US led coalition,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10by British warplanes, even though that city is meant to have been
0:22:11 > 0:22:13taken, the risk a lot of fighting going on there.
0:22:14 > 0:22:15We're joined now by Dr Karin von Hippel, director
0:22:16 > 0:22:18of the Royal United Services Institute, and the MP Crispin Blunt,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22he's chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee.
0:22:23 > 0:22:32Welcome. Let's start with the Russians. With the forces of us are,
0:22:33 > 0:22:39the Hezbollah, even Iranian generals on the ground. Is the strategy to
0:22:40 > 0:22:45take back most of them off the area around Aleppo and then they create
0:22:46 > 0:22:50an anglaise which has most of the Turkish border and Mediterranean
0:22:51 > 0:22:53coast? -- Assad. The Russians are going for a scorched earth policy
0:22:54 > 0:23:00similar to what we saw in charge in. The plan is to encircle Aleppo but
0:23:01 > 0:23:04the problem is the Syrian regime is too weak to hold Aleppo and it will
0:23:05 > 0:23:07create a power vacuum on the ground which will inevitably be filled by
0:23:08 > 0:23:12the worst elements, we have seen that before stop the Iranian
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Revolutionary guard might not be too weak to hold it, they are there in
0:23:18 > 0:23:21substantial numbers, they lost a general this week. Hezbollah is
0:23:22 > 0:23:28there as well. We are even getting reports that the Iraqis and Afghans
0:23:29 > 0:23:32are fighting there. They are fighting with the militia but they
0:23:33 > 0:23:38will not be able to govern Syria long term, it has to be governed by
0:23:39 > 0:23:42Syrians. You're not going to have the Russians governing in Aleppo,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46the Syrians need to govern it and they can't because they are still
0:23:47 > 0:23:51weak. There will be a wedge along the western coast, and that may be
0:23:52 > 0:23:57there for some time to come. If they succeed in seriously undermining the
0:23:58 > 0:24:05non-Islamic state rebels, the ones in Aleppo, east of Aleppo, if they
0:24:06 > 0:24:10seriously undermine them, doesn't President Putin then said, here is
0:24:11 > 0:24:15your choice in Syria, it is me and Assad, or Islamic State, make your
0:24:16 > 0:24:22mind up. That is also Troyes. The only reason we have Isil in Syria is
0:24:23 > 0:24:30because of Assad. What he did over this power vacuum which Isil has
0:24:31 > 0:24:34built up. They did not attack Isil until six or seven months ago, you
0:24:35 > 0:24:42had never attacked them in a meaningful way. Assad and Isil have
0:24:43 > 0:24:49been going after the moderate opposition. He has a problem as well
0:24:50 > 0:24:53as Carol was saying. If there is no settlement there, the Russians and
0:24:54 > 0:24:58Iranians have to be committed for the long term to provide the active
0:24:59 > 0:25:02support to hold the Assad regime in place, and frankly, that is
0:25:03 > 0:25:07indefinite until they get some kind of settlement, so we have lots to
0:25:08 > 0:25:11convince the Russians of the need urgently for a settlement, for two
0:25:12 > 0:25:15reasons. Firstly, to stop the bloodshed and to address the
0:25:16 > 0:25:23migration crisis that flows from that. Critically, Islamic State is a
0:25:24 > 0:25:27caliphate, administering territory in Syria and Iraq has to be brought
0:25:28 > 0:25:35to an end in everybody's interests, including the Russians, as soon as
0:25:36 > 0:25:40reasonably practicable. What would happen if if we are presented with
0:25:41 > 0:25:45this choice? That cannot happen. Let me remind you that the attack on
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Aleppo began the day the peace talks were due to begin in Geneva, which
0:25:50 > 0:25:55meant the talks never got off the ground. Why should Russia returned
0:25:56 > 0:26:01to the peace table until it is one? Because it is winning. It and it is
0:26:02 > 0:26:06winning but they might be able to take Aleppo with enormous investment
0:26:07 > 0:26:14of Russian air and Hezbollah and Iranians paramilitary forces as you
0:26:15 > 0:26:17described but the idea that the opposition have completely fallen
0:26:18 > 0:26:20over and it will return to normal in the non-ice is part of Syria will
0:26:21 > 0:26:26not happen. There is indefinite continuing conflict until there is
0:26:27 > 0:26:30some kind of settlement, and until there is a settlement, there is no
0:26:31 > 0:26:37serious prospect of being able to defeat Isil in Syria, and to be take
0:26:38 > 0:26:41the territory and destroyed the caliphate where they are
0:26:42 > 0:26:45administering territory. -- retake. They are attracting foreign fighters
0:26:46 > 0:26:50to go there and fight for them. No one is saying there will be a return
0:26:51 > 0:26:55to normality for the foreseeable future. What we could easily see
0:26:56 > 0:27:00around Aleppo is Syria's largest city, it was its financial capital,
0:27:01 > 0:27:05is a scorched earth policy, that is what the Russians know how to do,
0:27:06 > 0:27:11and you say they are not going to fall over. The 40,000 refugees who
0:27:12 > 0:27:14headed to the Turkish border think something dangerous is going on
0:27:15 > 0:27:19there. You have to remember a large number of Syrians who have migrated
0:27:20 > 0:27:25have migrated from regime controlled territories and have given up after
0:27:26 > 0:27:30four years on Syria. The migration out of Syria is coming from
0:27:31 > 0:27:34everywhere. What is essential for the United Kingdom, led by the
0:27:35 > 0:27:39United States, it is to bang heads together of both the Russians, the
0:27:40 > 0:27:44Turks, the Saudis and the Iranians, and say that our collective interest
0:27:45 > 0:27:47as an international community is fixing this, and if we go on
0:27:48 > 0:27:54supporting our clients in the region, rather than, as we all
0:27:55 > 0:27:56agreed to on the 15th of November in Vienna, actually exercise leverage
0:27:57 > 0:28:05to bring them to the table in order to bring a supplement, we asked
0:28:06 > 0:28:09biting our noses to blast our face. I get the point that am I missing
0:28:10 > 0:28:14something? I see no reason why President Putin will come to the
0:28:15 > 0:28:18table. There is an American term that begins with the term cluster
0:28:19 > 0:28:23and carries on. This is a sequence of hugely missed opportunities. The
0:28:24 > 0:28:27only reason you can bang the Russians' heads together is if you
0:28:28 > 0:28:30have a presence in the area which they pre-empted themselves. We went
0:28:31 > 0:28:38in and they are in the vacuum, we are not in the vacuum. Actually, a
0:28:39 > 0:28:47troupe presence could take ices out of ragga and some of the central
0:28:48 > 0:28:49areas. -- Isis. The Russians have no interest in stopping the refugee
0:28:50 > 0:28:54crisis. They don't like Europe or the EU and the fact that it weakens
0:28:55 > 0:29:01us is no great problem to them at all. Their big problem, and both
0:29:02 > 0:29:06your contributors must be right, it is that we don't see any long kind
0:29:07 > 0:29:10of future for the kind of settlement that Russia believes it wants to
0:29:11 > 0:29:13see. How long it takes before they discover that, how many people have
0:29:14 > 0:29:20moved from Syria before they discover it, it is a guess. Russia
0:29:21 > 0:29:26has two strategic plans. They are strategically linked. One is to have
0:29:27 > 0:29:30a solid presence in Syria, there it already has a port and a strong land
0:29:31 > 0:29:35presents as well. Secondly, it is to do what it can to undermine the EU,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39particularly the eastern part of the European Union which he wants to
0:29:40 > 0:29:45uncouple, and the flow of hundreds of thousands of refugees out of
0:29:46 > 0:29:48northern Syria will do that. Thirdly, to poke their fingers in
0:29:49 > 0:29:55the eyes of the Americans. They are flexing their muscles. If they stray
0:29:56 > 0:30:01too far in one direction, would the US shoot down a Russian plane? I
0:30:02 > 0:30:05suspect what we may seek are some helicopter gunships shot down by
0:30:06 > 0:30:06weapons supplied by some neighbouring countries were getting
0:30:07 > 0:30:16upset. Jonathan Beale was telling us the
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Saudis may offer some ground troops, is that really realistic, when they
0:30:22 > 0:30:25are already enmeshed in a civil war in Yemen, taking substantial
0:30:26 > 0:30:28casualties and finding life rather difficult and there? Do we really
0:30:29 > 0:30:35expect them to deploy land troops to Syria as well? That conversation was
0:30:36 > 0:30:37happening on the back of a political process that looked like it was
0:30:38 > 0:30:43making decent progress before Christmas. And what the local Sunni
0:30:44 > 0:30:48powers are going to need, what ideally they would be doing in the
0:30:49 > 0:30:52wake of a transition, is supporting the Syrian Arab army and the Syrian
0:30:53 > 0:30:57free army turning their guns on Isil and giving them the military
0:30:58 > 0:31:00capability on the ground for it to be an essentially Sunni force,
0:31:01 > 0:31:04wherever it is drawn from, that helps the local Syrian forces
0:31:05 > 0:31:09recapture their country from Isis. That is where the promise of Saudi
0:31:10 > 0:31:14troops and Emma Roddy troops and Turkish troops... Is it realistic?
0:31:15 > 0:31:18It is going to be necessary, you have pointed out how difficult
0:31:19 > 0:31:22political transition is, but we have to make all our efforts to get that
0:31:23 > 0:31:36transition and be thinking about what happens after that. The
0:31:37 > 0:31:51conference last week was about that, but this will only end, they will
0:31:52 > 0:31:56need help from the local Sunni powers to do it. We shall see, thank
0:31:57 > 0:32:03you very much. And we welcome viewers in Scotland who were
0:32:04 > 0:32:08watching First Minister's Questions. So when I mentioned that I got this
0:32:09 > 0:32:13tie, I had no Scottish viewers?! I just wanted to point out this is the
0:32:14 > 0:32:18Fife police pipe band tie. You might have a Scottish viewers,
0:32:19 > 0:32:24you mean viewers in Scotland! Is that still a test to find out
0:32:25 > 0:32:26whether you are sober?! Thank you, Fife Police!
0:32:27 > 0:32:29The 24-hour strike by junior doctors in England over government plans
0:32:30 > 0:32:31to change their contract ended this morning, but far from moving
0:32:32 > 0:32:34to an agreement, both sides seem to be growing further apart.
0:32:35 > 0:32:36The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,
0:32:37 > 0:32:38has rejected a final "take it or leave" it government offer,
0:32:39 > 0:32:41which included a concession on Saturday pay.
0:32:42 > 0:32:54has said he will impose the new contract.
0:32:55 > 0:33:02advising that a negotiated solution is not realistically possible.
0:33:03 > 0:33:08Along with other senior NHS leaders, and supported by NHS Employers,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11NHS England, NHS Improvement, the NHS Confederation,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15and NHS Providers, he has asked me to end the uncertainty
0:33:16 > 0:33:18for the service by proceeding with the introduction
0:33:19 > 0:33:21of a new contract that he and his colleagues consider
0:33:22 > 0:33:26both safer for patients and fair and reasonable for junior doctors.
0:33:27 > 0:33:34I have therefore today decided to do that.
0:33:35 > 0:33:40Yes, that was the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, House of Commons
0:33:41 > 0:33:45earlier, and we are joined by Chris Mason, many will feel this is the
0:33:46 > 0:33:50nuclear option. Absolutely, he said, take it or leave it, he is imposing
0:33:51 > 0:33:54this contract. He is still taking questions in the Commons right now,
0:33:55 > 0:33:58but here are the details he set out on this final deal. Not really a
0:33:59 > 0:34:05deal, is it? It is what the doctors are going to get. He says there will
0:34:06 > 0:34:07be an increase in the basic salary of 13.5%, higher than the figure
0:34:08 > 0:34:11floating around yesterday, three quarters of doctors will see their
0:34:12 > 0:34:14pay rise. Under the new contract, the maximum number of hours they
0:34:15 > 0:34:20will be made to work in any week will be reduced from 91 to 72, and
0:34:21 > 0:34:25the number of consecutive night shifts reduced from seven to four.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Crucially, the ordinary time hours on a Saturday, working on a Saturday
0:34:31 > 0:34:33but being paid the same rate as for Thursday afternoon, for instance,
0:34:34 > 0:34:38will extend from seven in the morning until five in the evening.
0:34:39 > 0:34:42It is the Saturday working which has been a sticking point for doctors,
0:34:43 > 0:34:47something they are not keen on at all. So are we looking forward to
0:34:48 > 0:34:51rolling strikes by junior doctors? That seems pretty possible, there
0:34:52 > 0:34:55has not yet been any response from the BMA, but I think it is fair to
0:34:56 > 0:35:05say we can hazard a guess they will be less than gruntled by what they
0:35:06 > 0:35:08have heard. Strong language from Heidi Alexander, the Shadow Health
0:35:09 > 0:35:12Secretary, saying this will destroy already rock bottom morale and that
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Jeremy Hunt is in the business of exporting junior doctors to the
0:35:17 > 0:35:20southern hemisphere, acting as a recruiting sergeant, she said, for
0:35:21 > 0:35:26the Australian and New Zealand health services. So yes, the dispute
0:35:27 > 0:35:31as far as finding a resolution, the position of a contract is over, but
0:35:32 > 0:35:38is the political row over? I suspect not. Understatement, but thank you
0:35:39 > 0:35:40very much, Chris Mason. Reporting on the fact that Jeremy
0:35:41 > 0:35:42Hunt has imposed the government contract.
0:35:43 > 0:35:44Google's tax affairs are under scrutiny again today,
0:35:45 > 0:35:47as two of its senior executives have been in front
0:35:48 > 0:35:50You'll remember that both the Califorina-based firm
0:35:51 > 0:35:53and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs have been taking a lot
0:35:54 > 0:35:57of flak over a settlement which saw Google pay ?130m in back taxes.
0:35:58 > 0:36:04Here's Tom Hutchinson, a vice president of Google
0:36:05 > 0:36:12to the Public Accounts Committee earlier.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15Our overall effective tax rate for Google as a whole
0:36:16 > 0:36:18across the world for the last five years is 19%, so I would say,
0:36:19 > 0:36:21since that's very close to the UK tax rate, we are paying a fair
0:36:22 > 0:36:26It is up to governments to decide where we should be paying that tax,
0:36:27 > 0:36:28so I would love to see the system be more simple,
0:36:29 > 0:36:32so we won't have to come to hearings like this and explain it,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36but we need governments to actually work together and develop an overall
0:36:37 > 0:36:39worldwide system, to take that 19% and split it among the countries
0:36:40 > 0:36:46We're joined now by the Conservative MP Matt Warman, in a former life
0:36:47 > 0:36:49he was a technology journalist, and by the Labour MP Caroline Flint
0:36:50 > 0:36:54who was among those questioning the Google executives ealier.
0:36:55 > 0:37:01I saw you in action this morning, what did you come away with? What
0:37:02 > 0:37:04was your overall feeling? It is clear they did not pay the tax they
0:37:05 > 0:37:09should have done under the system that we have got, and what has not
0:37:10 > 0:37:12helped Google in all of this is when, a few weeks ago, they made
0:37:13 > 0:37:17this announcement, there was no sense that they had been found out,
0:37:18 > 0:37:28we are sorry about that. Instead, this is a fantastic thing, haven't
0:37:29 > 0:37:30we been wonderful? When you hear that clip, saying we wanted more
0:37:31 > 0:37:32simple, the problem is that Google makes choices to make their
0:37:33 > 0:37:35arrangements very complicated. We have the situation with Ireland,
0:37:36 > 0:37:39Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Holland as well, which makes trying to
0:37:40 > 0:37:43fathom out what is going on very complicated. Yes, we should make it
0:37:44 > 0:37:47simpler, but they have to own up to the fact that they use these
0:37:48 > 0:37:51contrivances to get around paying tax. Governments of both persuasions
0:37:52 > 0:37:57have made the system incredibly complicated, and it means companies
0:37:58 > 0:38:01like Google hire the best accountants to take advantage of
0:38:02 > 0:38:05every complication. The last Labour government doubled the size of the
0:38:06 > 0:38:10tax guide, and this government has added another third to the tax
0:38:11 > 0:38:17guide! It is now the largest tax guide in the world, it is, I think I
0:38:18 > 0:38:23am right in saying, 16,000 pages. The Hong Kong tax guide is 230. You
0:38:24 > 0:38:26have been unintentionally, I don't mean you personally, but as a
0:38:27 > 0:38:32political class, have been complicit in creating the kind of rules that
0:38:33 > 0:38:35Google can exploit. I think that is right, and a lot of our rules are
0:38:36 > 0:38:40based on an old-fashioned system where companies operate as well, so
0:38:41 > 0:38:45companies like Google, Twitter, Facebook, often when they start out,
0:38:46 > 0:38:49they are not making a huge amount of profit, and what we saw in the last
0:38:50 > 0:38:55few years of the Labour government, there was an upsurge in the profits
0:38:56 > 0:38:58that they were achieving. So yes, it is overcomplicated, I absolutely
0:38:59 > 0:39:02agree, I am a great believer in looking elsewhere to see what they
0:39:03 > 0:39:09do, being less arrogant about our own system, but it is also about how
0:39:10 > 0:39:17we keep ahead, and HMRC, six years to claw back 130 million, of which
0:39:18 > 0:39:23they said 80 million was interest. You established there were no
0:39:24 > 0:39:28penalties? No penalties whatsoever. You wrote that companies like Google
0:39:29 > 0:39:32needs to be persuaded to pay tax. I am not sure that is how the system
0:39:33 > 0:39:38operates. I mean, you do not have to be persuaded, it is the law. That is
0:39:39 > 0:39:42the point I make in the next sentence! What we need to accept is
0:39:43 > 0:39:46that companies such as Google, any bigger global company, has a choice
0:39:47 > 0:39:51to make about where it bases itself, and it has a duty to pay as little
0:39:52 > 0:39:58tax as possible. When Caroline says they have a choice about where they
0:39:59 > 0:40:01pay tax, in fact, we shouldn't be asking to be treated like a charity,
0:40:02 > 0:40:04we should construct a global system, hard as that is, which means we can
0:40:05 > 0:40:09extract the right amount of tax. Until we do that, we will not solve
0:40:10 > 0:40:13the problem. But even you could be gone by the time we have a global
0:40:14 > 0:40:19tax system! Certain things that internationalised tax, which the EU
0:40:20 > 0:40:23has done, have played right into the hands of companies like Google,
0:40:24 > 0:40:28because they placed IP rights in places like Luxembourg or Ireland
0:40:29 > 0:40:32and send all the money there. In the interim, while you're waiting for
0:40:33 > 0:40:38your global mobile, what should we be doing? We should be making sure
0:40:39 > 0:40:43that tax organisations, such as HMRC, get the best possible deal in
0:40:44 > 0:40:46ways that are not going to be legally challenged, as companies
0:40:47 > 0:40:50like Google would if we did not come to arrangements such as we have.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54What we have got to do is do the best under the system we have got,
0:40:55 > 0:41:00but we have to reform the system, because until we do, we will be
0:41:01 > 0:41:03having the argument endlessly. Your government was meant to be
0:41:04 > 0:41:13instituting the diverted profits tax, but Google was not paying any
0:41:14 > 0:41:16of that. They made that clear in the session this morning, that it does
0:41:17 > 0:41:18not affect them. That is another interesting point, about the timing
0:41:19 > 0:41:22of the settlement. They thought, maybe we had better settle this
0:41:23 > 0:41:26after six years, because the diverted profits tax may be coming
0:41:27 > 0:41:31down the road. It is the games that are played, and I accept your point,
0:41:32 > 0:41:36Matt, companies like Google spent an awful lot on profile and what they
0:41:37 > 0:41:40are about, a young company, and they do, and it is about their prestige
0:41:41 > 0:41:44as well. But they have been found out on this, because they cannot
0:41:45 > 0:41:48deny, given the size of the company that they are, that during that
0:41:49 > 0:41:52period they were not paying enough tax, that is the was old of this
0:41:53 > 0:41:59investigation. My understanding is that for the period 2005-14 they had
0:42:00 > 0:42:04already paid about 120 million, according to the Economist, and now
0:42:05 > 0:42:10another 130. In the early days, they would be able to write off a lot of
0:42:11 > 0:42:16costs. Argue, as a committee member, now satisfied that, going forward,
0:42:17 > 0:42:21they will be paying the 20% whack of corporation tax? I would not say I
0:42:22 > 0:42:26am satisfied, because we need more transparency. Just before we had the
0:42:27 > 0:42:31committee, we got an invite from HMRC, who said they had asked Google
0:42:32 > 0:42:35permission to provide us with a confidential session in which we
0:42:36 > 0:42:39would be, with permission from Google, given more information about
0:42:40 > 0:42:42the nature of the deal. We did not accept that, because we saw it as a
0:42:43 > 0:42:46way to shut down the committee meeting, as a start! It would have
0:42:47 > 0:42:50been in Google's interest to be ahead of the pack and say, do you
0:42:51 > 0:42:55know what? We're going to share how we arrived at this. If it is under
0:42:56 > 0:43:03rules we have not reformed, there are enough, more transparency is
0:43:04 > 0:43:06needed, and that is something we will think about when we draft our
0:43:07 > 0:43:08report. What are your thoughts, David? The biggest tax guide in the
0:43:09 > 0:43:13world? It makes you proud to be British! If something needs a rule,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18we have got a rule for it! The idea of transparency is the right thing.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23The truth is, we have been involved in a trade-off, isn't it? We wanted
0:43:24 > 0:43:27the new technology companies very badly to locate as far as possible
0:43:28 > 0:43:31and invest as far as possible in Britain and create a hub, if you
0:43:32 > 0:43:37like, for that type of industry, and I think at King's Cross now the
0:43:38 > 0:43:42Google headquarters going up is at a cost of ?600 million. Very
0:43:43 > 0:43:48impressive building. And on top of five others. By tax definitions, it
0:43:49 > 0:43:52is just a pop-up! We had better leave it there. When will your
0:43:53 > 0:43:57report, out? We try to get these things turned around quickly,
0:43:58 > 0:44:01because it is such a topical debate, probably in the next month. In time
0:44:02 > 0:44:04for the next tax year! It's been 60 years since
0:44:05 > 0:44:06the cultural revolution swept across China thanks to the chairman
0:44:07 > 0:44:08of the country's Communist Party, Mao Zedong, and with it
0:44:09 > 0:44:11came his book of quotations It became a must-have item
0:44:12 > 0:44:14for intellectuals in Europe and our guest of the day,
0:44:15 > 0:44:18David Aaronovitch, has recently made a radio
0:44:19 > 0:44:25documentary about it. Why all the fuss?
0:44:26 > 0:44:38Here's Giles to explain. Today In the West Chinese Communist
0:44:39 > 0:44:43leader Mao Tse Tung is probably no more than a figure of history,
0:44:44 > 0:44:51so it was a rather surprised House To assist and I brought along the
0:44:52 > 0:45:01little red book. that saw the Chairman's
0:45:02 > 0:45:04infamous literary work pop up in the Mother
0:45:05 > 0:45:08of all democratic Parliaments. Order! I want to hear that the
0:45:09 > 0:45:15contents of the book! In China in the 60's the massed
0:45:16 > 0:45:18ranks of the faithful and certainly coerced red brigades
0:45:19 > 0:45:20read, waved and recited Many who did will tell you now
0:45:21 > 0:45:28they did so in the giddy adulation their Western
0:45:29 > 0:45:35equivilants gave to pop stars. It was of it's time,
0:45:36 > 0:45:42and the book was part of that. When I was small and the cultural
0:45:43 > 0:45:48Revolution started, we had nothing but this little red book. I can
0:45:49 > 0:45:52remember one phrase when people said you should not be growing your own
0:45:53 > 0:46:02crops at the corner of the collectives, for example, and that
0:46:03 > 0:46:08would be terms as a catalyst tile. -- capitalist tale.
0:46:09 > 0:46:10For Westerners the lethal truth of Mao's Cultural
0:46:11 > 0:46:13revolution was not yet clear and so the little red book took it's
0:46:14 > 0:46:15place in the iconography of revolution and radicalism.
0:46:16 > 0:46:18The book, was part of a look and said more than it's contents
0:46:19 > 0:46:25When so many people are disapproving of it and you are a young person,
0:46:26 > 0:46:32what you do? Not agree with them. Younger people and older people did
0:46:33 > 0:46:38see the little red book is something revolutionary and encouraging, a
0:46:39 > 0:46:44change of politics. Looking back now, I am deeply critical of some
0:46:45 > 0:46:46things but it was of some influence, not in terms of its ideology but the
0:46:47 > 0:46:51movement stuff of it. they grew up with
0:46:52 > 0:46:53revolutionary politics. One who did is wary of those
0:46:54 > 0:47:04who grab the symbols I don't think it belittles the
0:47:05 > 0:47:12seriousness of the regimes, it makes them a bit more comic. I don't think
0:47:13 > 0:47:17Chairman Mao would appreciate the way people joke about the little red
0:47:18 > 0:47:24book, he thinks it is serious and people needs to be reading it.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27this man's singing the virtues of Mao in 2013.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30That's probably Ok in China but here in Britian your more likely
0:47:31 > 0:47:35to think of moustachioed operatic insurance advert.
0:47:36 > 0:47:42We have our own copy here and it is shorter than the tax guide you are
0:47:43 > 0:47:45talking about. our guest of the day
0:47:46 > 0:47:49David Aaronovitch has recently made a Radio 4 documentary
0:47:50 > 0:47:51on the subject. And he's a busy man,
0:47:52 > 0:47:54because he's also written a book about his upbringing
0:47:55 > 0:47:55in a communist family and how he became disenchanted
0:47:56 > 0:47:57with communism. To discuss all of that we're joined
0:47:58 > 0:48:00by Ben Chacko, he's editor of the Morning Star newspaper,
0:48:01 > 0:48:12which is Britain's last It is not a communist newspaper, it
0:48:13 > 0:48:16is Labour movement. But there was a common is newspaper. What was it
0:48:17 > 0:48:21like growing up in a communist household? It was good, actually, in
0:48:22 > 0:48:26many ways. Since I have written the book, people who grew up in Catholic
0:48:27 > 0:48:34or Methodist background, there are some similarities here. You grew up
0:48:35 > 0:48:39as part of the community of beliefs, we had a Communist Party dentist, at
0:48:40 > 0:48:50Hilda, the builder came round, he would discuss the Marxist values in
0:48:51 > 0:48:54our kitchen! -- Marxist. It was a 90 degrees angle to everybody else.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57What everybody else believed we believe the opposite. If they
0:48:58 > 0:49:02believe America was good and Russian was bad, we believe that the
0:49:03 > 0:49:07opposite. It gave you a good set of beliefs as to whether you continued
0:49:08 > 0:49:12in that vein. I knew where I was on every side of every struggle since
0:49:13 > 0:49:22Spartacus! It gave you clarity. You studied Mandarin. I have read the
0:49:23 > 0:49:25Little Red Book. Do you live by it? Well, the Little Red Book is a
0:49:26 > 0:49:30pretty odd book. It is a selection of quotations ripped out of context
0:49:31 > 0:49:35from lots and lots of different books that Mao wrote. I think it was
0:49:36 > 0:49:40pretty destructive and I think that the Chinese sort of admit that now.
0:49:41 > 0:49:45It wasn't a helpful guide to everything in the cultural
0:49:46 > 0:49:50Revolution. I feel a bit envious of the way you describe your
0:49:51 > 0:49:54upbringing, David, because obviously I do not remember the Soviet Union,
0:49:55 > 0:49:59I don't remember the old Communist, but this community actually seems
0:50:00 > 0:50:07very comforting, sustaining, and there is comradeship and friendship.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Is that an overly romantic view? It explains why people were reluctant
0:50:11 > 0:50:14to leave it in a sense. Even when you have people who had begun to
0:50:15 > 0:50:19intellectually drift away and challenge things, there was a real
0:50:20 > 0:50:23sense of loyalty which helps people in place, and it is often said about
0:50:24 > 0:50:29Communists that they held in contempt everybody who left the
0:50:30 > 0:50:38party before them and anybody who left a minute after them! Are you a
0:50:39 > 0:50:43Communist? Yes, I am. If you look at the world as it is at the moment,
0:50:44 > 0:50:49there is a failed model, which we are seeing increasingly democratic
0:50:50 > 0:50:57power handed over to corporate power, the way the EU is dealing
0:50:58 > 0:51:01with Ttip treaties. There is a sense that whatever people want, it is not
0:51:02 > 0:51:04being permitted by corporate interests. There are increasing
0:51:05 > 0:51:10regulations about what you are allowed to demand, and for my
0:51:11 > 0:51:15generation, the rights of parents grew up with being taken away and
0:51:16 > 0:51:20stop your not expected to have a final salary pension, a contract
0:51:21 > 0:51:23which specifies hours per week, and all of these things mean life is
0:51:24 > 0:51:28getting worse and not better, and so something is getting wrong -- going
0:51:29 > 0:51:33wrong. Are you saying there is a resurgence? There is a resurgence on
0:51:34 > 0:51:39the left. Because of Jeremy Corbyn and the support he had. What is your
0:51:40 > 0:51:42response to that, I remember being patronisingly told by one of my
0:51:43 > 0:51:47lecturers at university that everybody is a communist University
0:51:48 > 0:51:53and then you grow up. This is a reinvented Lefty ideology? The
0:51:54 > 0:51:58critique of capitalism is the easy bit. Characterisation. The big
0:51:59 > 0:52:03problem is whether there was an alternative economic system in
0:52:04 > 0:52:06entirety which you can put down to replace capitalism as opposed to
0:52:07 > 0:52:13businesses that reform capitalism and discuss how you liberalise it
0:52:14 > 0:52:16and how you make people's democratic rights more secure in it. If you
0:52:17 > 0:52:21believe there is a completely alternative economic system then it
0:52:22 > 0:52:25is up to you to outline what that system is and how you would achieve
0:52:26 > 0:52:29it. In other words, the revolution you intend to go through, and that
0:52:30 > 0:52:34is where you hit a problem. Have you got an alternative? Is it credible
0:52:35 > 0:52:40and tangible? No social movement has been able to specify something you
0:52:41 > 0:52:43are going to do in the future is going to work. You could say the
0:52:44 > 0:52:47same thing about liberalism and the French Revolution. Liberalism did
0:52:48 > 0:52:51not work and it ended in bloodshed and so on. I don't think you can say
0:52:52 > 0:52:57that we have an absolute blueprint for what the future looks like stop
0:52:58 > 0:53:01I do think it is worth saying, capitalism has its own internal
0:53:02 > 0:53:04logic and dynamic capitalism has its own internal
0:53:05 > 0:53:08to this situation we are in now where power is increasingly
0:53:09 > 0:53:12concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, or wealth is concentrated in
0:53:13 > 0:53:16fewer hands, and you cannot reform that system, it has its own logic.
0:53:17 > 0:53:21We need to think of something better and try something better. On that,
0:53:22 > 0:53:29with Jeremy Corbyn as leader, has your leadership increase? --
0:53:30 > 0:53:31readership. It increased by 12%. Fascinating. No longer a big order
0:53:32 > 0:53:42from Moscow. They just arbitrarily should people,
0:53:43 > 0:53:44you don't need to pay your taxes! -- shoot.
0:53:45 > 0:53:46Now, are you planning a visit to the cinema?
0:53:47 > 0:53:48Perhaps you're thinking about booking tickets for Zoolander 2.
0:53:49 > 0:53:50Although it's been getting so-so reviews.
0:53:51 > 0:53:52And I'm afraid the same goes for Dad's Army.
0:53:53 > 0:53:55But if you wait until April, you can go and see a film about Brexit.
0:53:56 > 0:53:58Yes, that's right, a feature-length documentary making the case
0:53:59 > 0:54:05Shame it missed Valentine's Day weekend.
0:54:06 > 0:54:07The film-maker behind it is trying to raise ?100,000
0:54:08 > 0:54:12we'll speak to him in a moment, but first have a look
0:54:13 > 0:54:20This is the single most important political decision any of us
0:54:21 > 0:54:23Every continent now is our growing Europe.
0:54:24 > 0:54:25Certainly it is not in our economic interest to remain
0:54:26 > 0:54:29My name is Martin Durcan, I'm a documentary film-maker,
0:54:30 > 0:54:32and I want your help to make a film about Britain's membership
0:54:33 > 0:54:36We are about to be given a chance to say what we think,
0:54:37 > 0:54:43In this film, I want to spell out the choice before us,
0:54:44 > 0:54:45do we want to live under a Europe-wide government,
0:54:46 > 0:54:47a vast state machine which few of us understand,
0:54:48 > 0:54:50run by people we don't know with the power to impose laws on us
0:54:51 > 0:54:58that we haven't debated and have little or no power to overturn?
0:54:59 > 0:55:05And the man behind Brexit The Movie, Martin Durkin, joins us now.
0:55:06 > 0:55:14You are crowd sourcing this, is that right? Yes. How was it going? It is
0:55:15 > 0:55:18going all right, we have ?30,000 through crowd sourcing and other
0:55:19 > 0:55:24donations not through that so it is going well. How much you need? Well,
0:55:25 > 0:55:27we have got enough to start and it is fairly plain from the promises
0:55:28 > 0:55:37that we will have enough to finish. You have started interviewing
0:55:38 > 0:55:43people? A cluster. Who have you found impressive? The usual suspects
0:55:44 > 0:55:53are impressive. For Raj. -- Nigel Farage. The big names who will be
0:55:54 > 0:55:57familiar to you lot. I will try to interview very fairly a lot of the
0:55:58 > 0:56:00EU leaders as well but the main aim is to put the argument across so I
0:56:01 > 0:56:09don't want it to be a current affairs talking headpiece. We do all
0:56:10 > 0:56:13that! The BBC has the EU subject beautifully covered. What will you
0:56:14 > 0:56:17tell us that we don't know already? If you do lots of reading, there
0:56:18 > 0:56:21won't be that you don't know but I ain't that for people who don't do
0:56:22 > 0:56:25lots of background reading, and there are many of us, it lays out
0:56:26 > 0:56:32the case and refrains familiar things in unfamiliar ways. It asks
0:56:33 > 0:56:35basic questions. The aim is to say, hold on a minute, isn't it nice we
0:56:36 > 0:56:41have control of our own destinies and can shape our own futures, and
0:56:42 > 0:56:46should we think twice... What shocks me is the casual way which we hand
0:56:47 > 0:56:51over to other people the ability to determine other laws, that shocks
0:56:52 > 0:56:54me. You have been described as the Michael Moore of the rights, in
0:56:55 > 0:57:01reference to the left wing documentary maker. Is that an
0:57:02 > 0:57:04accolade? Is the next Communist, that confuses me and I think of
0:57:05 > 0:57:09myself as a minute Arian and not Right wing. I was on the time is
0:57:10 > 0:57:18powerless and that made me chuckle! -- militarily and. Is it going to be
0:57:19 > 0:57:26propaganda, though? Sometimes you make films from the strong points of
0:57:27 > 0:57:35view. Your wrist slapped -- you were wrist slapped. There is a space for
0:57:36 > 0:57:40someone making the case forcefully, arguing one particular thing. The
0:57:41 > 0:57:43BBC had a great European disaster movie and said it would be a
0:57:44 > 0:57:50disaster to leave the EU, and I think it was funded by the EU. I
0:57:51 > 0:57:52could have waited for the BBC to make the case but I thought we
0:57:53 > 0:58:00should do it ourselves. OK, very well. When will he be finished? I
0:58:01 > 0:58:10can barely spend the time to come over and talk to you chaps! Will
0:58:11 > 0:58:13Bill the biopic follow? It is a documentary not Encyclopaedia
0:58:14 > 0:58:15Britannica! I will try and sting you for a contribution later. And the
0:58:16 > 0:58:20Queen. There's just time before we go
0:58:21 > 0:58:24to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what is the name
0:58:25 > 0:58:27that Liam Fox and the Brexiteers Is it a) Stayvians b) Persistonians
0:58:28 > 0:58:30c) Non-leavians or d) You are absolutely right. That is
0:58:31 > 0:58:50the right answer. The One o'clock News is starting
0:58:51 > 0:58:56over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.45 this
0:58:57 > 0:58:59evening for This Week, with Michael Portillo,
0:59:00 > 0:59:01Labour MP Liz Kendall and former As Ireland head to France
0:59:02 > 0:59:07in search of a first victory, can Wales use home advantage
0:59:08 > 0:59:11to beat a deflated Scotland? And jubilant England enter
0:59:12 > 0:59:19the Stadio Olimpico We want to be able to say,
0:59:20 > 0:59:21"We believe in this case."