:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to The Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.The date has been announced, the big players have picked sides
:00:44. > :00:48.Boris Johnson says he will campaign to leave the European Union,
:00:49. > :00:58.So does Boris have bigger things on his mind?
:00:59. > :01:05.There will be plenty of time to talk about Europe and the great future
:01:06. > :01:08.that Britain can have outside the European Union.
:01:09. > :01:11.Is our national security better protected inside or outside
:01:12. > :01:14.The Prime Minister says we are safer in.
:01:15. > :01:16.His Cabinet colleague Iain Duncan Smith says
:01:17. > :01:23.Is George Osborne planning a ?4 billion raid on
:01:24. > :01:27.One of his former Lib Dem colleagues thinks the Chancellor may be
:01:28. > :01:35.about to abolish the tax-free lump sum.
:01:36. > :01:38.And speaking of great national decisions, we speak to the director
:01:39. > :01:40.of a new play about the relationship between Marshall Petain
:01:41. > :01:53.But first, Westminster's most glamorous blonde has been
:01:54. > :02:00.Boris Johnson announced his decision to back a vote to leave
:02:01. > :02:03.in the referendum in his own newspaper, the Daily Telegraph.
:02:04. > :02:06.And many of the other papers splashed on Boris's decision, too.
:02:07. > :02:10.The Sun described it as a "blonde bombshell".
:02:11. > :02:15.But others saw the move as more about Boris's own ambitions.
:02:16. > :02:19.The Mirror said that the move was BoJo's bid for PM's crown.
:02:20. > :02:22.The Mail said it was a "dagger blow" to Cameron as "Boris Goes
:02:23. > :02:27.And the Independent declared the London mayor as
:02:28. > :02:32.Speaking outside his home yesterday, Mr Johnson declared his intention
:02:33. > :02:49.I have decided after a huge amount of heartache, because the last thing
:02:50. > :02:54.I wanted was to go against David Cameron or the government. But after
:02:55. > :03:01.a great deal of heartache, I did not think there was anything else I
:03:02. > :03:04.could do. I will be advocating vote leave, or whatever the team is
:03:05. > :03:08.called. I understand there are many of them. Because I want a better
:03:09. > :03:14.deal for the people of this country. To save them money and to take back
:03:15. > :03:21.control. That is really I think what this is all about.
:03:22. > :03:29.We can speak now to our deputy political editor, James Landale. Is
:03:30. > :03:33.this authentic RS or is it about ambition? I think it is authentic
:03:34. > :03:37.that Boris is very much agonising over this decision for many months.
:03:38. > :03:42.As long as I have known him, he has been agonising over Europe. I was a
:03:43. > :03:47.journalist in Brussels, and he was a journalist there, as I was. He began
:03:48. > :03:51.life as a very straight reporter. I remember talking to him when he
:03:52. > :03:55.voted for Ken Clarke, a pro-European leadership candidate in the past. I
:03:56. > :03:59.think the sense of agony is authentic. But what I think that
:04:00. > :04:04.overlays it is a strong suspicion amongst many Conservative members
:04:05. > :04:07.that he is not just inking about the national interest, he is also
:04:08. > :04:11.thinking about his own interest. A lot of people think that whatever
:04:12. > :04:14.happens, you will have aligned himself with the Leave campaign,
:04:15. > :04:18.which will place him in good favour with Tory members who will be the
:04:19. > :04:23.people who will choose David Cameron's replacement. And that
:04:24. > :04:29.would be no bad thing if wished to be a process candidate in that
:04:30. > :04:33.selection process. Even in his article where he has written about
:04:34. > :04:37.this agonising decision, there seems to be a little bit of continuing to
:04:38. > :04:42.hedge his bets, with implications that a comment has been interpreted,
:04:43. > :04:45.that you could go for a second referendum, if the UK voted to
:04:46. > :04:49.leave, which would put more pressure on Brussels for a better deal? Boris
:04:50. > :04:54.has floated this idea before and it was squashed by the government. The
:04:55. > :04:59.idea is that Britain would vote to leave, and that would be the only
:05:00. > :05:03.way of getting Brussels to really negotiate properly. And then Britain
:05:04. > :05:08.could have a second referendum once it has negotiated better terms of EU
:05:09. > :05:13.membership. In the Daily Telegraph today, Boris Johnson nods to this,
:05:14. > :05:17.in a very subtle way. I have to say, the Prime Minister's spokesman this
:05:18. > :05:22.morning said, no, this is a one-off vote. If Britain votes to leave,
:05:23. > :05:26.they will leave. A lot of lawyers and constitutional experts say the
:05:27. > :05:31.same thing. A second referendum simply would not be possible. How
:05:32. > :05:36.angry it is Downing Street? Obviously, publicly they are staying
:05:37. > :05:42.relaxed. How delighted also is the Leave campaign? Number 10 Downing
:05:43. > :05:45.Street is not happy. They know that Boris Johnson is one of those
:05:46. > :05:48.politicians who can reach out and get those voters who might otherwise
:05:49. > :05:53.have been swayed by the Prime Minister's arguments. Polls do
:05:54. > :05:57.suggest that people will listen to Boris Johnson's voice. The Leave
:05:58. > :06:02.campaign are happy because they think they have finally got a
:06:03. > :06:06.figurehead. The question is - do people look at Boris Johnson and
:06:07. > :06:10.think, nice bloke for London mayor, and will they listen to his
:06:11. > :06:14.arguments on Europe? Also, if his presence means that this referendum
:06:15. > :06:19.is shrouded in a debate about Tory leadership in the future, will Mr
:06:20. > :06:23.Johnson's presence put David Cameron's future on the ballot paper
:06:24. > :06:27.as well? And what impact will that have on the electorate? Will they
:06:28. > :06:32.think, if I vote to leave Europe, does that mean we lose David
:06:33. > :06:34.Cameron? There are lots of consequences which we might not have
:06:35. > :06:35.appreciated yet in Mr Johnson's decision.
:06:36. > :06:39.The PM has come back from Europe with a deal,
:06:40. > :06:43.and it will now be up to the public whether the UK remains a member
:06:44. > :06:45.of the EU, or whether we opt for life outside.
:06:46. > :06:47.Later this afternoon, David Cameron will be
:06:48. > :06:51.Each side will be trying to convince as many voters as possible
:06:52. > :06:56.to back their cause, which has led to some unlikely bedfellows.
:06:57. > :07:02.Prime Minister David Cameron will lead the campaign to stay in,
:07:03. > :07:04.together with Chancellor George Osborne.
:07:05. > :07:06.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn also wants to stay in,
:07:07. > :07:17.Campaigning for out are Mayor of London Boris Johnson,
:07:18. > :07:23.and Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary,
:07:24. > :07:25.who have found themselves alongside Ukip's Nigel Farage
:07:26. > :07:27.and George Galloway, former Labour and Respect MP.
:07:28. > :07:31.The PM says the UK will be "safer and stronger in a reformed EU"
:07:32. > :07:32.and that his deal strengthens British sovereignty.
:07:33. > :07:35.Boris Johnson says remaining in the EU would lead to "an erosion
:07:36. > :07:43.of democracy" with the UK unable to control its own affairs.
:07:44. > :07:47.Voters will decide for themselves soon enough.
:07:48. > :08:00.The question on the referendum ballot will be...
:08:01. > :08:03.The Prime Minister says he'd like the referendum to take place
:08:04. > :08:08.The date of the referendum and various rules about
:08:09. > :08:10.the administration of the poll still need to be confirmed by
:08:11. > :08:14.The Electoral Commission needs time to choose which two
:08:15. > :08:17.organisations will officially campaign for Remain and Leave,
:08:18. > :08:24.and receive public funding to do that.
:08:25. > :08:27.This so-called "designation period" could last six weeks.
:08:28. > :08:29.There also must be a "referendum period" -
:08:30. > :08:33.when the formal campaign takes place and various spending rules apply -
:08:34. > :08:36.that must last a minimum of 10 weeks.
:08:37. > :08:43.That means campaigning could begin in April.
:08:44. > :08:46.With me now is the Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, who last night
:08:47. > :08:48.revealed he would vote to leave the EU.
:08:49. > :08:51.And we're joined by the Labour MP Chuka Umunna, a former member
:08:52. > :08:55.He is campaigning for Britain to remain in the EU.
:08:56. > :09:03.Welcome to both of you. Nadhim Zahawi, that was a surprise - I
:09:04. > :09:07.thought you were one of those who would be wanting to remain in the
:09:08. > :09:11.EU? I have always instinctively wanted to do the best possible
:09:12. > :09:16.within the EU. Two weeks ago I thought we were there. 80% of the
:09:17. > :09:22.deal was there. The last 20% is always the toughest. I thought
:09:23. > :09:30.actually that the EU elites would listen to David, and David was
:09:31. > :09:35.trying very hard. Unfortunately, it was -- it is with a heavy heart that
:09:36. > :09:40.I look at it now and I do not think they have done enough. I do not
:09:41. > :09:44.think it is a reformed Europe. You are a loyal MP, so which bits did
:09:45. > :09:51.they fail on, as far as you're concerned? And do you feel a sense
:09:52. > :09:56.of betrayal? No, I think David Cameron was the man who gave us the
:09:57. > :10:00.referendum, so the nation should be grateful for that. Secondly,
:10:01. > :10:04.importantly, we will have these differences. Michael Gove has come
:10:05. > :10:08.out, Boris Johnson, others will come out. Many of my colleagues and
:10:09. > :10:11.friends are on the other side. Let me give you one example. On
:10:12. > :10:17.financial services - we are giving up a veto to allow the Eurozone
:10:18. > :10:23.countries, the currency countries, to try to fix their currency. It is
:10:24. > :10:28.broken. Unemployment is running at 25%, 50% a month to the youth. And
:10:29. > :10:34.it is white to back them on, maybe give up that Vitae. But what are we
:10:35. > :10:38.getting in return? If, whatever whatever decision they make, it
:10:39. > :10:43.hurts our financial services, the best we can hope for is an emergency
:10:44. > :10:48.brake and the discussion. They will discuss the pain they will deliver
:10:49. > :10:52.on us. That for me is not enough. I would like to see better protection
:10:53. > :10:57.for our financial services. If possible. If not, maybe it is better
:10:58. > :11:01.that we go it alone. Have you just come to this decision in the last
:11:02. > :11:04.few weeks? Not that long ago, you said divorce would be worse for
:11:05. > :11:12.everyone. You really have changed your mind. Divorce is painful, as
:11:13. > :11:18.you know. I don't, but...! We have many friends, and let's hope none of
:11:19. > :11:24.us go through that. Chuka Umunna is getting married... I am not planning
:11:25. > :11:29.to get divorced! Let's get back to the EU. We will wake up, the channel
:11:30. > :11:34.will still be there, trade will still be there. We should be
:11:35. > :11:41.confident of what we can do. 80% of our economy is service based. Do you
:11:42. > :11:45.take the arguments which are being put forward by Nadhim Zahawi, that
:11:46. > :11:49.actually we will have a better chance of improving our business,
:11:50. > :11:54.our financial services industry, if we come out of the EU? No, I
:11:55. > :11:57.disagree. I think Nadhim Zahawi takes a very downbeat view on what
:11:58. > :12:01.British ministers and prime ministers have been able to achieve
:12:02. > :12:05.in the past, and what they can do going forward. Take financial
:12:06. > :12:09.services - in the main, British prime ministers have been able to
:12:10. > :12:12.marshal a majority behind the British position on the EU council
:12:13. > :12:18.on financial services. Actually, the only time that we have recently lost
:12:19. > :12:21.a vote was when George Osborne was voted down when the EU was trying to
:12:22. > :12:25.bring in regulations to end the exorbitant bonus culture we see in
:12:26. > :12:34.the City of London. But the bigger reason. Just a minute. Because the
:12:35. > :12:38.bankers then got salary instead of bonus, which is short-term instead
:12:39. > :12:42.of long-term. Terrible decision. The irony of that particular decision is
:12:43. > :12:47.that once it was passed by the European Council, Mark Hoban, who
:12:48. > :12:49.was a City Minister under the last Parliament, and George Osborne,
:12:50. > :12:58.seeking to take ownership, and boasting about... But the important
:12:59. > :13:03.point... It is this issue of sovereignty. The thing about this -
:13:04. > :13:08.you listen to what people who want us to leave are arguing for. They
:13:09. > :13:12.say, we cannot determine any of our own affairs. I remember sitting in
:13:13. > :13:15.the last Parliament, watching the last Tory government, the troubling
:13:16. > :13:20.of tuition fees, we had the different benefit cuts, we had the
:13:21. > :13:25.NHS reorganisation, one of those things which the EU had absolutely
:13:26. > :13:29.nothing to do with. In fact of the 121 acts of Parliament which were
:13:30. > :13:33.passed in the last Parliament, just four of them were implemented to
:13:34. > :13:36.pass EU legislation. The majority of this stuff was determined domestic
:13:37. > :13:42.leave. Let's just stick to financial services. Are you saying that the
:13:43. > :13:46.City of London will always be protected from decisions which are
:13:47. > :13:50.made within the Eurozone, by countries in the Eurozone, who will
:13:51. > :13:54.not be looking to pass favourable laws and decisions to the City of
:13:55. > :13:58.London, and surely if we came out we would be able to protect our
:13:59. > :14:02.financial services more effectively? I don't think so. This goes to a
:14:03. > :14:06.broader point, which is that ultimately if we want to continue to
:14:07. > :14:11.trade with the EU free trade area... They will trade with us, we are the
:14:12. > :14:18.fifth largest economy in the world! The point I am making is, one
:14:19. > :14:22.question is, what is the model? If you say, look at Norway or
:14:23. > :14:26.Switzerland, which trade with that area, they pay to be part of that
:14:27. > :14:32.area, they are subject to all the rules of that area, but because they
:14:33. > :14:39.are not in the EU... We are the fifth largest economy in the world,
:14:40. > :14:44.soon to be the fourth. 80% of it is services, but also we sell goods and
:14:45. > :14:50.manufacturing. The automotive sector sales across Europe. Europe will
:14:51. > :14:53.want to trade with us. We buy more BMWs and Mercedes from Europe than
:14:54. > :14:56.they buy stuff from us. Ultimately the world will not stop. This
:14:57. > :15:00.scaremongering that everything is going to stop on the 24th of June is
:15:01. > :15:07.simply not true. They will trade with us. America does very well in
:15:08. > :15:10.Silicon Valley, where I have got experience, or in Wall Street, with
:15:11. > :15:14.the rest of the world. The argument is not that they will not trade with
:15:15. > :15:20.us, it is the terms on which they trade.
:15:21. > :15:25.You were saying that we would be allowed to basically have all the
:15:26. > :15:28.benefits of being in the club without being in the club, without
:15:29. > :15:33.paying into it. That is unprecedented. To take your
:15:34. > :15:37.discourse, which is that we get run over and we cannot do anything in
:15:38. > :15:42.the club, somehow paradoxically when we leave the club, they are going to
:15:43. > :15:47.allow us to do whatever we want. First of all, the clubs are very
:15:48. > :15:52.different. But should you not do this from within the club? The way
:15:53. > :15:55.you do it is to say listen, this is not good enough, we want to help you
:15:56. > :16:00.but you have not thought seriously about reform. Look at what they do
:16:01. > :16:03.on the Strasbourg Circus. In a world of austerity, they have to
:16:04. > :16:06.parliaments, spending hundreds of millions of pounds on buildings when
:16:07. > :16:18.George Osborne is cutting back on buildings. But now seems a whole,
:16:19. > :16:23.you accused... -- Nadhim Zahawi, you accused Chuka Umunna of
:16:24. > :16:27.scaremongering. But John Whittingdale was honest yesterday
:16:28. > :16:31.when he said there would be an element of risk. There will be and
:16:32. > :16:36.you do not know exactly what sort of deal you will get. Absolutely right.
:16:37. > :16:40.But to say to you that you are scaremongering by saying we are
:16:41. > :16:43.losing 3 million jobs is just that, scaremongering. It is not actually
:16:44. > :16:48.true. I don't think there is anything wrong. It is perfectly
:16:49. > :16:52.legitimate to point out the risk. I have not said that 4 million jobs
:16:53. > :16:56.will go but I have said that the jobs are undoubtedly linked to us
:16:57. > :17:00.trading with the EU. And it is not just what we stand to lose, it is
:17:01. > :17:04.what we stand to gain. We know we need to balance the economy by
:17:05. > :17:08.investing more in skills, research and of element and other things. A
:17:09. > :17:13.lot of inward investment comes from the EU. And if we deepen the single
:17:14. > :17:17.market, and you are talking about services, we need to do that in
:17:18. > :17:22.digital, and independent research shows of this could create an extra
:17:23. > :17:31.800,000 jobs in the UK. On that point. It is not just a question of
:17:32. > :17:34.what you lose, it is... I have built a digital business and it is
:17:35. > :17:38.ludicrous to say that we are best served just dealing with Europe. The
:17:39. > :17:43.out of the Silicon Valley do not need the EU to be able to operate
:17:44. > :17:48.globally. Digital business can do well over the world -- all over the
:17:49. > :17:52.world. We need to be confident with our economy. We can go out there and
:17:53. > :17:57.do well. But you need a big home market. I need to end it there with
:17:58. > :18:01.some yes no answers. Hilary Benn told me he will not be campaigning
:18:02. > :18:07.alongside David Cameron. But you will be. I have already shared a
:18:08. > :18:12.platform with Damian Green so I think it is unlikely that I will be
:18:13. > :18:15.asked to share a platform with him. I think it is for each and every
:18:16. > :18:21.Labour politician to make a decision. And now seems a heart, are
:18:22. > :18:25.you happy sharing a platform with George Galloway? -- and Nadhim
:18:26. > :18:28.Zahawi at I am not happy doing that. Now, when it comes to national
:18:29. > :18:30.security, would Britain be safer Yesterday the Work and Pensions
:18:31. > :18:34.Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, claimed our membership of the EU
:18:35. > :18:36.made us more vulnerable What we see with the European Union
:18:37. > :18:43.is incapacity to get its act Who is to say in the next few years,
:18:44. > :18:49.countries that have taken people from various areas are not
:18:50. > :18:52.then going to give them leave to remain, and even passports,
:18:53. > :18:55.as we have seen in some cases, and then in due course may well
:18:56. > :18:58.turn up again in the UK? So these are big issues further
:18:59. > :19:01.down the road for us, because this open border does not
:19:02. > :19:04.allow us to check and control people We see what happened in Paris,
:19:05. > :19:08.where they spent ages Who is to say it is not
:19:09. > :19:13.beyond the wit of man that those might already be
:19:14. > :19:14.thinking about that? This morning the Defence Secretary
:19:15. > :19:17.Michael Fallon questioned that position and said we would be taking
:19:18. > :19:20.a "big gamble" with our security No, it isn't true and I don't think
:19:21. > :19:27.he actually quite said that. The position is, we already
:19:28. > :19:29.have control of our We have opted out of all of the open
:19:30. > :19:33.border arrangements in Europe. Russia invaded the Crimea,
:19:34. > :19:36.then they started to foment The only organisation
:19:37. > :19:42.that could deal with that wasn't Nato, which is
:19:43. > :19:46.the cornerstone of our defence, but was the European
:19:47. > :19:49.Union, which we were able to lead into applying
:19:50. > :19:52.sanctions against Russia - legally binding sanctions
:19:53. > :19:55.against trade with Russia to ensure that Russia
:19:56. > :19:58.paid a price for that, learned that it can't behave
:19:59. > :20:00.like that and can't ignore We're joined now by our security
:20:01. > :20:14.correspondent Frank Gardner. Frank, how dangerous, in your mind,
:20:15. > :20:17.is it for either side to indulge in what some people are calling project
:20:18. > :20:23.fear and scaremongering over security issues? I don't think it's
:20:24. > :20:26.dangerous but it is unfair on the public who deserve straight answers.
:20:27. > :20:30.Security is not something that should be politicised or obfuscated
:20:31. > :20:36.and confused and conflated with other issues like the economy or
:20:37. > :20:39.migration. It stands on its own. There are several different issues
:20:40. > :20:47.here. One is people. The other is our hands. The reason why we have
:20:48. > :20:53.not yet experienced, and I use the word gets deliberately, the reason
:20:54. > :20:56.why we have not yet experienced the marauding terrorist firearms attack
:20:57. > :21:00.that Paris did last year in January and November, the main reason is
:21:01. > :21:03.because it is much harder to get hold of powerful automatic weapons
:21:04. > :21:07.in this country. It is not impossible and it may not always be
:21:08. > :21:12.that way but we are protected by our coastline. We do not have the open
:21:13. > :21:20.borders arrangement that continental Europe does. After the Paris attack
:21:21. > :21:24.at the Charlie Hebdo offices in January, I spoke to the coordinator
:21:25. > :21:27.of EU counterterrorism and he told me that they have strengthened their
:21:28. > :21:31.external borders with the Balkans, where most of the stop comes
:21:32. > :21:38.through, hard weapons, big weapons, but once they are in continental
:21:39. > :21:44.Europe, it is difficult to stop them. That is unlikely to change
:21:45. > :21:49.whether we are in or out of the EU but if you were looking at
:21:50. > :21:56.counterterrorism in the EU, the police and terrorism and agencies do
:21:57. > :22:01.not share what they know. -- terrorism agencies. In Britain, they
:22:02. > :22:03.do. Britain's courses arrangements in terms of intelligence and
:22:04. > :22:10.Security Committee oration are not with Europe, they are with the US
:22:11. > :22:14.and the five eyes countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Those are
:22:15. > :22:17.the closest links, not with Europe. You were saying that the issue of
:22:18. > :22:21.intelligence and geography, the fact that we are an island, to some
:22:22. > :22:25.extent better protects us against any potential future terrorist
:22:26. > :22:30.attack. But what about the issue of where the terrorists are coming
:22:31. > :22:33.from? Because much has been made about links with migrants coming
:22:34. > :22:38.from the Middle East, that there could be jihadis hidden there. There
:22:39. > :22:41.was also the evidence that a lot of the attacks have been from
:22:42. > :22:50.home-grown terrorists here and on the continent. I think it comes down
:22:51. > :22:52.to numbers. If there were to be terrorists who hide themselves
:22:53. > :23:02.amongst the wave of migrants trying to get into Europe and Britain, if
:23:03. > :23:09.there were Isis members in there, their numbers will be small indeed.
:23:10. > :23:13.But the fear is that these could be highly trained people who have spent
:23:14. > :23:16.time in Syria. But the fact remains that there are more than 2000 people
:23:17. > :23:22.in this country already, UK citizens, UK residents, living and
:23:23. > :23:29.working here who have sympathies with or connections to international
:23:30. > :23:34.terrorism. Nearly all of them have committed no crime but they have
:23:35. > :23:38.been detected by MI5 and the Metropolitan Police as having those
:23:39. > :23:43.sympathies. That is not going to change whether we are in or out of
:23:44. > :23:45.the EU. That is a fact that is there already.
:23:46. > :23:47.Joining me now are Conservative MP Mark Pritchard, a former member
:23:48. > :23:49.of the National Security Strategy Committee who believes
:23:50. > :23:55.And Gerard Batten is a Ukip MEP - formerly his party's spokesman
:23:56. > :24:13.Welcome to both of you. You are for Remain. Why were you one of the MPs
:24:14. > :24:19.that led the rebellion that called for a referendum in 1981? The fact
:24:20. > :24:22.of the matter is that the majority of people in the UK were not old
:24:23. > :24:26.enough to vote in 1975, and it is right that we should have a
:24:27. > :24:30.referendum. I campaigned for that. And from a security point of view
:24:31. > :24:37.you think we are better in the EU? Why? Is the is a time for Europe to
:24:38. > :24:40.stand together rather than divide on issues of security. I saw the
:24:41. > :24:46.Commons earlier by Iain Duncan Smith and I have a huge amount of respect
:24:47. > :24:49.for him. But I think he is wrong to suggest that we have open borders.
:24:50. > :24:59.We are not part of the Schengen Agreement as Michael Fallon said.
:25:00. > :25:03.And the Paris attacks, eight of them work EU nationals. The leader of the
:25:04. > :25:08.Paris attack was a Belgian national and as Frank Gardner alluded to, the
:25:09. > :25:13.attack in this country, three of them were British and one was
:25:14. > :25:16.German. Yes, we have to guard our borders from external threats but we
:25:17. > :25:20.have a home-grown threat and the government is taking action to deal
:25:21. > :25:26.with that. But I think it is wrong to suggest we have open borders when
:25:27. > :25:29.we do not. It is wrong to suggest that if the public vote to leave the
:25:30. > :25:34.European Union, that we will be safe from terrorism. I think that is a
:25:35. > :25:38.bold statement to make. Can anyone make that statement? Was Iain Duncan
:25:39. > :25:42.Smith right or wrong to imply we would be at more threat if we stay
:25:43. > :25:50.in the EU? We know it is a growing threat. It is not right to say that
:25:51. > :25:54.we do not have open borders, because although we are not in the Schengen
:25:55. > :25:59.area, and if a European citizen wants to come to the UK, we have
:26:00. > :26:04.open borders. There is nothing we can do to stop them coming. Not an
:26:05. > :26:08.EU citizen but we do have border checks in France at the moment. And
:26:09. > :26:14.those could be under threat if we pulled out. How can you have a
:26:15. > :26:18.border checks be a threat if you are an independent country? You will
:26:19. > :26:21.find that on the Eurostar, very seldom are people checked as they
:26:22. > :26:26.come off the boat. We had problems with people getting on at Lille and
:26:27. > :26:29.bypassing the checks that go on at brussels, for example. But if we
:26:30. > :26:33.controlled borders we can put inappropriate checks for us. Frank
:26:34. > :26:36.Gardner said the most important security arrangements are bilateral
:26:37. > :26:40.agreements that we have with other countries, and not necessarily
:26:41. > :26:44.membership of the EU. What do you say to that? I think he was right to
:26:45. > :26:48.say that we have to be careful not to conflict the issue of asylum
:26:49. > :26:50.seekers and immigration and migration from within the European
:26:51. > :26:57.Union with the wider security issue. The fact is, as I concluded over the
:26:58. > :27:01.last few months, as someone who sat on the committee you mentioned, and
:27:02. > :27:04.previously on the Parliamentary assembly, our security is best
:27:05. > :27:09.served by our transatlantic relationship, and also being a
:27:10. > :27:13.counterbalance to France and Germany's domination of security
:27:14. > :27:17.policy and foreign policy. If we left of the European Union, and this
:27:18. > :27:22.is a question for Gerald, if the British people vote to leave, do you
:27:23. > :27:28.agree that would put France and Germany in a more dominant place in
:27:29. > :27:32.Europe? If you don't think Germany is in a dominate position now, you
:27:33. > :27:41.should spend more time in Europe. I'm not saying that, do you think
:27:42. > :27:44.they would be more dominant. We were an independent nation for the
:27:45. > :27:48.thousand years before we joined. But is Britain a character to German and
:27:49. > :27:52.French dominance? It is very much a German project. The Germans pay the
:27:53. > :27:56.vast amount of the budget, the biggest contributors of the budget.
:27:57. > :28:00.Chancellor Merkel, by making one statement that nobody will be
:28:01. > :28:09.refused entry, as let in literally millions of migrants. And... Do you
:28:10. > :28:15.support Nato? Of course I do. And do you agree that if the United Kingdom
:28:16. > :28:20.left of the European Union, France and Germany would build up defence
:28:21. > :28:24.structures in competition to Nato? The European Union wants to have one
:28:25. > :28:30.seat in Nato, which is the European Union, and not one individual seat.
:28:31. > :28:35.Do we want to give up our seat on Nato in order to bring this
:28:36. > :28:39.together? You said about Germany opening its doors to 1 million or so
:28:40. > :28:45.migrants. But Frank Gardner said again that actually the biggest
:28:46. > :28:52.threat is home-grown terrorists here, rather than an unknown
:28:53. > :28:56.quantity perhaps smuggled in. Two of the people who blew themselves up in
:28:57. > :29:01.the sports stadium in Paris were there on forged passports. I read an
:29:02. > :29:06.article which says that Interpol knows of 250,000 fake passports in
:29:07. > :29:10.circulation, the tip of an iceberg. Greece and Italy are seen as
:29:11. > :29:13.industrial producers of faked passports in the European Union so
:29:14. > :29:17.if somebody gets into the European Union on a fake passport, we are
:29:18. > :29:25.powerless to stop them. But you are not addressing the issue. You made a
:29:26. > :29:29.allusion to a Syrian passports and there was only one found at the
:29:30. > :29:35.scene of the crime. The majority were EU nationals. What would you do
:29:36. > :29:41.about them? We also talked about... He is not answering a single
:29:42. > :29:46.question? Our individuals have done a terrific job here. If we knew more
:29:47. > :29:49.things about European citizens, suspecting that they could be
:29:50. > :29:52.involved in terrorism, under the current rules we cannot stop them
:29:53. > :30:00.coming into the country because they have right of entry. But
:30:01. > :30:05.intelligence sharing will only come about if we are full and active
:30:06. > :30:11.members of the European Union and if we were to withdraw, Germany and
:30:12. > :30:13.France do not have to share it under their own internal legislation.
:30:14. > :30:15.Now, on Friday the cross-party Eurosceptic group Grassroots Out
:30:16. > :30:19.held a rally in Westminster to coincide with the final day
:30:20. > :30:25.Attendees were promised a special guest speaker, but when that was
:30:26. > :30:27.revealed to be former Respect MP and London Mayoral candidate
:30:28. > :30:29.George Galloway, some people in the audience were
:30:30. > :30:33.Our Adam was at the event, and spoke to some of the people
:30:34. > :30:39.Why are you walking out before it is finished?
:30:40. > :30:42.I wasn't too interested in hearing the last speaker,
:30:43. > :30:43.I'm afraid. George Galloway.
:30:44. > :30:46.Why are you leaving - it is not finished yet?
:30:47. > :30:50.George Galloway. What is wrong with him?
:30:51. > :30:52.I will never sit in a room with a man
:30:53. > :30:58.I'm a member of the Christian Friend of...
:30:59. > :31:00.We don't want George Galloway anywhere near...
:31:01. > :31:02.Really? It was all going so well!
:31:03. > :31:04.It is a disgrace. Anglican Friends of Israel!
:31:05. > :31:08.This has torpedoed it as far as I'm concerned.
:31:09. > :31:10.I am not staying here to hear George Galloway.
:31:11. > :31:13.How did you feel when they said the name George Galloway?
:31:14. > :31:16.I said immediately to my husband, we must go.
:31:17. > :31:21.Erm, I don't like what I have just seen on stage.
:31:22. > :31:25.I think any sort of association with George Galloway is wholly
:31:26. > :31:28.inappropriate and I think a lot of people here feel the same way,
:31:29. > :31:30.whichever side of the argument they are on.
:31:31. > :31:45.George Galloway - it seems you're unveiling was not quite the
:31:46. > :31:49.triumphal...? Well, not for the first time, you have misled me by
:31:50. > :31:53.asking me to come in and talk about the referendum, but instead wanting
:31:54. > :31:59.to talk about me. I am sure we have not misled you. Hang on. No, I won't
:32:00. > :32:04.hang on. If you had told me that I was coming in to discuss me, I would
:32:05. > :32:07.have said, there are much bigger issues
:32:08. > :32:11.have said, there are much bigger occupied by van six or however many
:32:12. > :32:19.vox pop Siew had... This is going on to the issue of the
:32:20. > :32:21.vox pop Siew had... This is going on want to ask you this. You
:32:22. > :32:24.vox pop Siew had... This is going on defend... I do not want to defend me
:32:25. > :32:29.at all. You are not my judge, you are not fit to be my judge. Thank
:32:30. > :32:33.you very much. All I am saying is, are you going to be a benefit to
:32:34. > :32:37.this campaign...? You asked me to come into this studio, I did not ask
:32:38. > :32:42.you. You told me you wanted to hear your views on the referendum. And I
:32:43. > :32:46.do. So can we move on to that, please? Are you happy to link arms,
:32:47. > :32:49.to use the please? Are you happy to link arms,
:32:50. > :32:54.expression, with others that you do not agree with? I do not link arms
:32:55. > :32:59.with anybody. It is a binary choice. You are in or you are out. The last
:33:00. > :33:04.fellow you had on who said he would not share a platform with me claimed
:33:05. > :33:09.?40,000 of the taxpayer to hit his horses in a stable. Would I really
:33:10. > :33:15.want to link arms with him? No. But if he can bring any net jig voters
:33:16. > :33:21.into the polling booth, and if I can bring any no voters into the polling
:33:22. > :33:24.booth, I hope that would be... What we were trying to say about this
:33:25. > :33:33.interview is that this interview as far as you are concerned is bigger
:33:34. > :33:36.than people's... Tony Blair is for yes, does that mean anybody
:33:37. > :33:42.associated with Tony Blair? It is such childish discourse. Except that
:33:43. > :33:46.political bedfellows can sometimes lead people to say, is one being
:33:47. > :33:51.authentic about the issue? For example, you said about Nigel
:33:52. > :33:54.Farage, he should be disqualified from any civilised company
:33:55. > :33:58.henceforth. But you are going to put that aside in order to campaign for
:33:59. > :34:02.this issue, which you think is bigger... Bigger than all issues. It
:34:03. > :34:06.will affect the future of all of our people for the rest of time. So what
:34:07. > :34:10.do you say to those people who obviously do not feel it is bigger
:34:11. > :34:15.than their personal antipathy towards Hugh? More the fool them. I
:34:16. > :34:18.hope they are not going to vote for the European Union because they do
:34:19. > :34:21.not like me. That would be a very foolish and childish thing to do.
:34:22. > :34:26.But are you worried that you might be turning off some people who would
:34:27. > :34:30.like to support it? But you asked me to come here presumably because you
:34:31. > :34:34.thought I had something which some people might like to hear. And we
:34:35. > :34:38.will get onto it. Yet onto it! We are almost finished the interview
:34:39. > :34:43.children how do you know, I might have you on for another 15 minutes!
:34:44. > :34:48.I very much doubt that. But if you are going to convince people of an
:34:49. > :34:51.argument... Please stop this. You misled me into coming here today.
:34:52. > :34:57.And every question you have asked has been about me. I am campaigning
:34:58. > :35:02.amongst my 1 million followers on social media, on the radio, on the
:35:03. > :35:06.television, on platforms, on the streets, for Britain to leave for a
:35:07. > :35:10.series of important reasons, to which you have not yet turned. I
:35:11. > :35:14.will get to it if you would just answer the one question. When have
:35:15. > :35:20.you ever not wanted to talk about yourself? It is so childish, it is
:35:21. > :35:26.so tabloid, it is so Daily Mail. Good forbid! Are you and Nigel
:35:27. > :35:28.Farage going to be able to attract and keep enough support for this
:35:29. > :35:34.campaign, which you say is important enough to override any other
:35:35. > :35:38.personality? I don't know because the public have not voted yet. But I
:35:39. > :35:43.am convinced that Britain should leave. So is Boris Johnson, for his
:35:44. > :35:50.own reasons. So is Nigel Farage, for his own reasons. What is the
:35:51. > :35:53.overriding reason for you? Because I believe in democracy, I believe
:35:54. > :35:57.Britain should control its own events, who comes into our country,
:35:58. > :36:01.who can be told to leave our country, what our foreign policy
:36:02. > :36:04.should be, what our economic policy should be, should be decided by the
:36:05. > :36:09.British people in a British Parliament. It is not rocket
:36:10. > :36:16.science. Have you always held that position? In 1975, I campaigned... A
:36:17. > :36:22.lot of people in the Labour Party at that time also campaigned to come
:36:23. > :36:27.out. I leaned to the views about the EU of Tony Benn. But the last straw
:36:28. > :36:34.for me was Greece, the crushing of democracy in Diyala, which told me,
:36:35. > :36:38.not to tell Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, that if they attempted to
:36:39. > :36:42.implementing the kind of policies which they believe are necessary,
:36:43. > :36:46.and I agree, then they will be crushed underfoot by the EU
:36:47. > :36:51.bureaucracy -- Greece -- and by the power of Europe. So you have returns
:36:52. > :36:56.to the issue of workers' rights, which is was actually the basis of
:36:57. > :36:59.Labour's division in 1975. So, are you disappointed that somebody like
:37:00. > :37:06.Jeremy Corbyn is not pushing harder to look at that issue? I think the
:37:07. > :37:10.Prime Minister's negotiation was smoke and mirrors. If Jeremy Corbyn
:37:11. > :37:13.had been going into those negotiations, he would have raised
:37:14. > :37:17.far more fundamental issues. I know why, given the domestic balance of
:37:18. > :37:21.forces within the British Labour Party, why Jeremy Corbyn has been
:37:22. > :37:25.frankly hobbled on this question. But I am clinging to the view I took
:37:26. > :37:28.under the leadership of Tony Benn, and I will continue to do it with
:37:29. > :37:34.all my breath, if anyone is persuaded by it, I will be happy.
:37:35. > :37:36.There you go. You had your say, finally, on the issue.
:37:37. > :37:40.Time now to take a look at what else is in store for the Week Ahead.
:37:41. > :37:43.Later today, Jeremy Corbyn will address the regular weekly
:37:44. > :37:46.meeting of his MPs for the first time this year.
:37:47. > :37:48.Tuesday sees the deadline for an agreement on the so-called
:37:49. > :37:51.fiscal framework between the governments in Westminster and
:37:52. > :37:56.On Wednesday, Mr Cameron and Mr Corbyn will face each other
:37:57. > :38:01.Will there be a new spirit of solidarity now that they
:38:02. > :38:04.are on the same side in the referendum campaign?
:38:05. > :38:07.On Thursday, EU ministers will meet in Brussels to discuss
:38:08. > :38:12.Here, the Government will be presented with the latest
:38:13. > :38:21.And on Friday, we get back in to the party conference groove
:38:22. > :38:24.with the Greens, Ukip and the Scottish Lib Dems
:38:25. > :38:25.all heading off for their spring jamborees.
:38:26. > :38:28.We're joined now by Chris Hope of the Telegraph and Rowena Mason
:38:29. > :38:39.Welcome to both of you. Let's continue, following that George
:38:40. > :38:42.Galloway interview, where he did not really want to talk about the issue
:38:43. > :38:47.of whether or not people were turned off by his presence at these events
:38:48. > :38:50.- the Prime Minister used it as a threat for people wanting out that
:38:51. > :38:54.they would be linking arms with George Galloway and Nigel Farage. In
:38:55. > :38:57.turn, you could say they would be linking arms with Nicola Sturgeon
:38:58. > :39:03.and Jeremy Corbyn - how would that look to Tory MPs? Of the problem is,
:39:04. > :39:06.basically it is a binary choice, nothing to do with politics, it is
:39:07. > :39:10.about a choice about whether you feel happy in the EU or not.
:39:11. > :39:14.Therefore you will have George Galloway on one side, on the same
:39:15. > :39:18.side is Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, against the other team, who
:39:19. > :39:20.will have David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn on the same side. I don't
:39:21. > :39:26.think it really matters that much. You have to recognise that all sorts
:39:27. > :39:29.of politicians in this country, nothing wrong with that, it is a
:39:30. > :39:35.democracy. The big choice in the end is, in or out? It will have people
:39:36. > :39:43.on both sides. Is Jeremy Corbyn an enthusiastic in? Will he be a
:39:44. > :39:48.cheerleader for the Remain camp? Jeremy Corbyn has now made it really
:39:49. > :39:51.clear that Labour's position is that they will campaign to remain in the
:39:52. > :39:55.European Union. There are some within the Labour Party who would
:39:56. > :40:00.prefer him to be a bit more full-blooded about supporting the EU
:40:01. > :40:04.and remaining in the EU. But there are others who are just very happy
:40:05. > :40:08.that he has set aside some of his historic Euroscepticism to say that
:40:09. > :40:15.the collective position of the party is definitely for in. How realistic,
:40:16. > :40:20.though, is the prospect? We have seen people dividing over this issue
:40:21. > :40:24.within the Conservative Party. How realistic is it that the Cabinet and
:40:25. > :40:27.the Conservative Party can come back together after the result on the
:40:28. > :40:32.24th of June? I think it is realistic for stop there will be
:40:33. > :40:35.this reshuffle in June or July, where you might see Boris Johnson,
:40:36. > :40:39.who has been tipped for Foreign Secretary. He may well get that job.
:40:40. > :40:45.Certainly they want to bring the party back together. If they lose
:40:46. > :40:49.and we voted to go out, then David Cameron's future is certainly not
:40:50. > :40:52.assured. So there is all to play for. But there will certainly be an
:40:53. > :40:57.attempt to bring everybody back together in some kind of unity
:40:58. > :41:01.reshuffle after the referendum. I spoke to Hilary Benn yesterday, who
:41:02. > :41:04.said he would not be sharing a platform with David Cameron. Is that
:41:05. > :41:09.a hangover from what happened in Scotland? Yes, I think absolutely.
:41:10. > :41:12.There is a really big danger for Labour. They were burnt by Better
:41:13. > :41:18.Together with the Conservatives in Scotland. The SNP portrayed them as
:41:19. > :41:22.this kind of Westminster elite, that it was a stitch-up by the
:41:23. > :41:26.establishment. And so, Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Party
:41:27. > :41:30.will be really keen to separate themselves from David Cameron when
:41:31. > :41:34.they are arguing to remain in the EU. And crucial to that, Jeremy
:41:35. > :41:39.Corbyn has been very rude about Cameron's deal which he got in
:41:40. > :41:43.Brussels the other day. Arguing that he should have focused more on
:41:44. > :41:47.workers' rights and fighting the trade deal. It is not like they are
:41:48. > :41:52.linking arms and making exactly the same argument. They will be putting
:41:53. > :41:54.forward different ideas with the same aim of keeping the UK in the
:41:55. > :41:58.EU. Thank you to both of you. And joining me now for the rest
:41:59. > :42:02.of the show are two new MPs - Victoria Borwick for
:42:03. > :42:04.the Conservatives and Labour's Nick Now, the Government has issued
:42:05. > :42:12.new guidelines to local councils and other public bodies that bans
:42:13. > :42:15.them from boycotting Israeli goods. The government says it will end
:42:16. > :42:18."divisive" town hall boycotts and encourage community cohesion,
:42:19. > :42:20.but campaigners have called the changes "an attack
:42:21. > :42:22.on local democracy". John Hilary from anti-poverty
:42:23. > :42:36.charity War on Want is here. John Hilary - why should public
:42:37. > :42:40.bodies be able to impose local boycotts on goods from countries
:42:41. > :42:44.with which they have disagreements and they disapprove? I think it is
:42:45. > :42:49.an essential part of local democracy. At the moment, we as
:42:50. > :42:52.local taxpayers can call on our locally elected representatives and
:42:53. > :42:56.say, we do not want our money to be given out in contracts to countries
:42:57. > :42:59.which are complicit in the human rights abuses of Palestinians, for
:43:00. > :43:04.example, through trading with illegal Israeli settlements in the
:43:05. > :43:07.occupied West Bank, or indeed, we do not want our money to be given out
:43:08. > :43:12.in contracts to arms companies which are doing deals with the Saudi
:43:13. > :43:15.regime. Similarly, in terms of local pensions, for teachers, police
:43:16. > :43:19.officers and government officials, aiming to their pension pots. The
:43:20. > :43:22.government is now saying to them, you no longer have the right to
:43:23. > :43:26.choose that your money should or should not go into these companies
:43:27. > :43:29.which are complicit in human rights abuses. For us, it seems like an
:43:30. > :43:34.extraordinary abuse of local democracy. You were investigated by
:43:35. > :43:39.the Charity Commission after a complaint about allegedly
:43:40. > :43:44.anti-Israeli campaigns, so you can hardly claim this to be part of that
:43:45. > :43:46.campaign, can you? Our charity is promoting human rights around the
:43:47. > :43:51.world, as well as the fight against poverty. I should make it clear for
:43:52. > :43:54.the record - the charity, and has rebuffed all of the complaints which
:43:55. > :43:58.were made against War on Want in the past by certain Zionist groups. I
:43:59. > :44:01.think we are completely in the clear from the point of view of the
:44:02. > :44:05.Charity Commission. This is not about Israel. This is about human
:44:06. > :44:09.rights abuses being committed against either Palestinians were
:44:10. > :44:16.indeed any other peoples by companies which are complicit in
:44:17. > :44:20.those violations. So, should the councils continue their boycotts, in
:44:21. > :44:24.your mind? Of course. At the local level, we surely have the right to
:44:25. > :44:28.say where our money goes? In fact we have the obligation. The UK
:44:29. > :44:31.Government itself has got an obligation under international law
:44:32. > :44:36.to hold to account like the Israeli regime - and it has failed to do
:44:37. > :44:38.that. So it is up to us as local activists and local taxpayers.
:44:39. > :44:42.We're joined now by the Cabinet Office minister Matthew Hancock.
:44:43. > :44:48.Why can't councils make that decision? I am all in favour of
:44:49. > :44:58.devolution, but we cannot devolve foreign policy. Councils and public
:44:59. > :45:00.authorities should not discrimination against different
:45:01. > :45:03.countries that we have trade relationships with. Their job is to
:45:04. > :45:08.provide services to local taxpayers, relationships with. Their job is to
:45:09. > :45:12.not to try to have a localised foreign policy. But what if those
:45:13. > :45:16.local taxpayers agree with the line the councils are taking, and have
:45:17. > :45:17.put pressure on their local representatives to take a stand on
:45:18. > :45:26.something like boycotting Israeli In in the case of Israel, and this
:45:27. > :45:31.guidance is not only about Israel but of course it is about Israel,
:45:32. > :45:34.there are some councils who wants to target a particular country. But we
:45:35. > :45:37.have a trading relationship with Israel and the foreign office
:45:38. > :45:43.decides our foreign policy. It is for them, not local councils, to
:45:44. > :45:48.decide our foreign policy. There is a problem here specifically around
:45:49. > :45:52.Israel because some people use a boycott we are really they have an
:45:53. > :45:56.anti-Semitic sentiment. More broadly, this is a question of who
:45:57. > :46:01.do you think should be deciding the foreign policy of this country. And
:46:02. > :46:04.on the issue of devolution, government always likes of
:46:05. > :46:07.devolution and they promise it in opposition and then in power, when
:46:08. > :46:10.they do not like the decisions taken by local bodies, they try to
:46:11. > :46:15.withdraw the power. It does look cynical. I don't think it is
:46:16. > :46:22.cynical. Quite the contrary. We are devolving enormous amounts of power
:46:23. > :46:26.to Scotland and Wales and areas of the country. I am involved in a
:46:27. > :46:29.devolution bid in East Anglia and Manchester. There is an enormous
:46:30. > :46:37.amount of devolution going on. But when you devolve, one of the ways
:46:38. > :46:41.you get it right is by making clear what is to be done at a national
:46:42. > :46:49.level and what is to be done at a local level. And no one is arguing
:46:50. > :46:52.that foreign policy should be set by local governments. Shouldn't be a
:46:53. > :46:56.national policy in terms of making a decision about boycotting goods from
:46:57. > :47:06.a particular country? No, and Matthew Hancock is mixing two
:47:07. > :47:11.matters. The reality is we hear a lot about mayors and local councils'
:47:12. > :47:16.devolution, but the first moment that George Osborne approaches
:47:17. > :47:19.something he does not like, he tries to claw power back to the centre.
:47:20. > :47:23.And every government does that. Is it not just about those in power?
:47:24. > :47:28.With respect, the last Labour government created the Welsh
:47:29. > :47:33.Assembly, the Scottish Parliament, and devolved London. They are
:47:34. > :47:37.privately happy to take investment decisions, and that is the mixture
:47:38. > :47:41.of the answer from Matthew Hancock that does not stand up. It is for
:47:42. > :47:48.local councils to answer the electorate. It is quite clear that
:47:49. > :47:53.we need to treat all suppliers the same. In London, you can buy things
:47:54. > :47:56.from everywhere, and that is the fun thing. People should be able to
:47:57. > :47:59.choose where they buy things from. It is very artificial. Everyone
:48:00. > :48:04.should be treated equal. We have wonderful things all over the world
:48:05. > :48:07.and I know when I go and choose, I choose British bacon and British
:48:08. > :48:12.apples because I want to support our farming industry. It is getting very
:48:13. > :48:17.supposed -- very confused, saying the council should be asked where we
:48:18. > :48:21.should procure things from. You see it as an investment decision, not
:48:22. > :48:26.foreign policy? I think that people should be able to free trade where
:48:27. > :48:32.we want. If we believe in localism and free trade, we should have an
:48:33. > :48:35.open border. Ultimately, this is a question of discrimination. Do you
:48:36. > :48:40.want to have a discriminatory policy and it seems that some people want
:48:41. > :48:46.that, or do you want to trade openly and freely. Ultimately, do you
:48:47. > :48:53.determine it against Israel or do you not? A final question, will you
:48:54. > :48:59.be boycotting Brad Forrest from now on? On the great European debate,
:49:00. > :49:03.people will take their decisions and I came into politics essentially on
:49:04. > :49:11.the question of economic security, that is what I want to promote and
:49:12. > :49:14.that is what I want to unambiguously answered by remaining within the
:49:15. > :49:15.European Union. But it is for every individual to decide in this
:49:16. > :49:17.referendum. The Chancellor is due
:49:18. > :49:19.to unveil his Budget next month, in which we can expect to see
:49:20. > :49:22.the results of pensions consultation One of the ideas he floated
:49:23. > :49:26.was transforming pensions into a type of "retirement ISA",
:49:27. > :49:30.and one former ministerial colleague has claimed George Osborne
:49:31. > :49:32.will abolish the current tax-free Let's have a look at the Chancellor
:49:33. > :49:42.saying he is open to radical change for pensions
:49:43. > :49:49.in last July's Budget. We have taken important steps
:49:50. > :49:51.with our new single-tier pension and generous new ISA,
:49:52. > :49:54.but I am open to further radical Pensions could be treated like ISAs
:49:55. > :49:58.- you pay in from taxed income, and it is tax-free
:49:59. > :50:00.when you take it out. And in between, it receives a
:50:01. > :50:03.top-up from the government. This idea and others like it
:50:04. > :50:05.need careful and public consideration before
:50:06. > :50:07.we take any steps. So I am today publishing a green
:50:08. > :50:09.paper which asks questions, invites views and takes care not
:50:10. > :50:14.to prejudge the answer. Joining us now is the former
:50:15. > :50:17.Lib Dem Minister for Pensions, He now works for the private
:50:18. > :50:25.pensions firm Royal London. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.
:50:26. > :50:30.Are you convinced of the Chancellor is going to do this? I think it is
:50:31. > :50:34.very likely. It is not definite and not even he has made up his mind.
:50:35. > :50:37.But because this is the only option he has mentioned in the House of
:50:38. > :50:41.Commons, people have started saying that it will be a flat rate and
:50:42. > :50:45.there is a risk he will announce the ice and the problem with that is
:50:46. > :50:49.that if all your money has been taxed when you put it into a
:50:50. > :50:52.pension, the idea of a tax-free lump sum disappears. He could abolish the
:50:53. > :50:58.lump sum without saying the words and people in future would not be
:50:59. > :51:04.able to take advantage of the popular bit of the pension. What is
:51:05. > :51:07.your response to that? At the moment, this is speculation. We no
:51:08. > :51:12.wonder the Conservatives that we have a confirmed triple lock where
:51:13. > :51:15.pensions have gone up every year and we have guaranteed that it will go
:51:16. > :51:23.up in line with earnings and inflation. At the moment, we do not
:51:24. > :51:29.know. Gordon Browne made himself very unpopular when he took people's
:51:30. > :51:37.pensions. Would George Osborne make himself unpopular if he did this? I
:51:38. > :51:42.hope not. You're not, but would it make I have no idea what the budget
:51:43. > :51:46.is going to be. Are you making mischief, Steve Webb? On the
:51:47. > :51:50.contrary. Everyone has jumped to the conclusion that because a lot of
:51:51. > :51:54.people were opposed to the pensions ISA, it is off the agenda. I have
:51:55. > :51:58.not been into the Treasury, but lots of people go in and come out saying
:51:59. > :52:02.that the pensions ISA is on the table. I am concerned that if we go
:52:03. > :52:05.through without people understanding, we would lose a
:52:06. > :52:10.popular bit of the pension system that attracts people to pensions.
:52:11. > :52:14.And we need people to want to savour for a pension. What would your
:52:15. > :52:21.reaction be if this was announced? My worry about this is that rather
:52:22. > :52:25.than having one single overarching savings strategy, and looking at
:52:26. > :52:28.policy to see how savings can be encouraged in the economy, the
:52:29. > :52:36.Chancellor sees pensions as a tax grab. That is a worry. I worry that
:52:37. > :52:41.this is the chance about looking for if few billion pounds rather than
:52:42. > :52:51.thinking for the long-term. What would this mean? Having a ISA would
:52:52. > :52:55.mean that people have the money, and it is a huge gravel tax from
:52:56. > :52:59.tomorrow to today. It is really attractive if you are Chancellor.
:53:00. > :53:03.And chancellors have in the past looked at pensions as a fruitful way
:53:04. > :53:07.of getting money. What would you do instead? I would publicly say that
:53:08. > :53:12.the idea of the generous flat rate of relief, giving more help to
:53:13. > :53:15.people who need it most, lower and middle earners, yes you might take
:53:16. > :53:21.some away from higher earners but if you keep the tax-free sum, you can
:53:22. > :53:23.square the circle. But he should not be taking money out when people need
:53:24. > :53:24.more help, not less. 'Patriot' and 'traitor' are the sort
:53:25. > :53:27.of insults likely to be thrown around over the next few months
:53:28. > :53:30.as we discuss Britain's Jonathan Lynn's new play -
:53:31. > :53:33.The Patriotic Traitor - deals with a decision France's
:53:34. > :53:39.leaders made in 1940, whether to surrender to Nazi Germany
:53:40. > :53:42.as the war hero Phillippe Petain Or whether to fight
:53:43. > :53:56.on with the Free French 30 years ago, the high command will
:53:57. > :54:00.write about you. Write for the wrong reasons. You are a defeatist. You
:54:01. > :54:06.have no hope and you never had. I had. I won. Not this time. The end
:54:07. > :54:10.of hope is the beginning of death and without hope it is impossible
:54:11. > :54:13.for a reasonable man to have hope. In that case, there can never be
:54:14. > :54:18.hope because it is not possible for a reasonable man to believe in God.
:54:19. > :54:21.I believe in God and I have always been reasonable. And I give away
:54:22. > :54:28.everything I believe in to save France. I inherited the catastrophe.
:54:29. > :54:35.I was not responsible for it. How do you think I feel? Signing on the
:54:36. > :54:36.dotted line, giving away my soul. I said I would take defeat on my
:54:37. > :54:38.shoulders and I did. Tom Conti as Marshal Petain
:54:39. > :54:40.and Lawrence Fox And here in the studio
:54:41. > :54:52.is the author of that play, Welcome. It has sold out. Yes.
:54:53. > :55:01.Although there may be a couple of extra performances scheduled in the
:55:02. > :55:06.next day or two because of demand. Let's look at these two figures. If
:55:07. > :55:12.you looked at it in black and white, Charles de Gaulle was the hero, who
:55:13. > :55:16.fought against the Nazis, and the tan was the traitor who fought
:55:17. > :55:34.against them. Is it more nuanced than that? --.... Petain was the
:55:35. > :55:40.goal's mentor. They had a father-son relationship and at the end of the
:55:41. > :55:44.war, tragically, de Gaulle out of that is on trial for treason,
:55:45. > :55:51.something he was reluctant to do. But surely when you look back, even
:55:52. > :55:55.now, at history, there was not a detente. Petain had collaborated and
:55:56. > :56:01.that is how history has judged him. It is, and that is right. But from
:56:02. > :56:05.Petain's point of view, de Gaulle was the sword and he was the
:56:06. > :56:09.shields. He makes the point in the plate is that it was all very well
:56:10. > :56:14.for de Gaulle to save Paris but if it was not for Petain, there would
:56:15. > :56:18.have been no Paris to savour. Is this a revisionist look at the role
:56:19. > :56:23.of Petain? People tried to say once that he thought he was doing what
:56:24. > :56:26.was best for France. It is not revisionist. I think there is no
:56:27. > :56:29.doubt in my mind that he was wrong. He collaborated with the Nazis and
:56:30. > :56:32.he allowed all sorts of terrible things to happen but at the same
:56:33. > :56:37.time it is interesting to try to find an explanation for what made
:56:38. > :56:43.him so wrong, what made this French hero do such terrible things. It is
:56:44. > :56:48.not enough to say that he was a bad guy, but why? We have said that
:56:49. > :56:53.patriot and traitor are emotive words. The work you are most famous
:56:54. > :56:56.for, of course, is yes Minister and yes prime minister, known and not
:56:57. > :57:04.just here but all around the world. Did that surprise you? Absolutely.
:57:05. > :57:08.just here but all around the world. We thought we would do six episodes
:57:09. > :57:09.for BBC Two and nobody would watch it, but
:57:10. > :57:18.for BBC Two and nobody would watch astonished by the increasing
:57:19. > :57:25.success. My father once said it has been used as a textbook for
:57:26. > :57:31.government. Have you thought of doing the job yourself? Why not?!
:57:32. > :57:35.Wouldn't you want to be prime Minister. I would love to be but it
:57:36. > :57:40.is a big job. I'm not sure I could. Prime minister. Perhaps the Minister
:57:41. > :57:45.feels he is not absolutely prime ministerial calibre, Jeffrey. There
:57:46. > :57:53.is no doubt about that, free. You feel a little hesitant. Modestly
:57:54. > :57:56.put. There's only one fly in the ointment, you are a bit of an
:57:57. > :58:00.outsider. Unless you can stage manage some sort of public success
:58:01. > :58:06.in the next few days. A tall order. I am up to my neck in the Euro
:58:07. > :58:15.sausage. Art imitating life, do you think? Are you fans? Absolutely. Do
:58:16. > :58:18.you think it is accurate? I have not been a government minister so I
:58:19. > :58:23.cannot comment. Look at them, distancing themselves from! I think
:58:24. > :58:26.being in politics and being in government are completely different
:58:27. > :58:32.things. And will this come back to the fore with Europe debate, what do
:58:33. > :58:36.you make of it so far? The European debate? Well, I am not sure, really.
:58:37. > :58:42.There are arguments on both sides, as Sir Humphrey would say but I have
:58:43. > :58:46.thought about it from de Gaulle's point of view because I had been
:58:47. > :58:50.writing about him. He wanted a free-trade area. And let's leave it
:58:51. > :58:56.on that free trade area. Angst to all of our guests. -- thank you to